#100 (LIVE EVENT) A look back on the Middle Earth Podcast's 100 episodes and China's cultural industry
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Hello everyone, I am with LJ, editor of the World of Chinese magazine, which commissions Middle Earth. Hi Aladdin. So LJ, what are the exclusive stories that you guys have worked on this issue 104? We focus on how urban Chinese residents are reconnecting with nature. So they are lacking nature now? Absolutely. They discovered that there is a serious lack of nature education among urban kids right now. It has a negative impact on them, but there is also a strong effort to change the situation.

In a related story, we explored how a well-designed zoo in Nanjing has attracted large group of followers and how it has inspired them to care more about nature and wildlife.

And so in this issue, what are the others' articles? Yeah, we also took a cruise ship down the Yangtze River, traced the history of game consoles in China, and uncovered why Hunan Cuisine in particular is taking China by storm right now. So dear listeners, if you want to know more and support the podcast, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy. It seems that we can only rely on ourselves. The earth has made the last return to China.

This is not a safe place. I think the two of them are going to be able to get the woman's head.

Hi everyone and welcome to Middle Earth, your source for insight into China cultural industry. Listen on to those who are making a living by creating and distributing art or content into the world's second biggest market. So today we are shamelessly celebrating Middle Earth China cultural industry podcast 100th episode. So to reach that number we had to go through 224 guests, 4430 minutes of content and one pandemic. In order to make it big I have summoned all my supportive friends living in Beijing. I basically you know um

My name is Sarah Huang. I'm a script writer and translator, freelancing. And under this economy, fortunately, I still have multiple projects going on.

And I've had the privilege of working with Aladdin and Sam previously, both of them. And very happy to be here and meet you all. And next to you, Sam Davis, managing editor at the World of Chinese magazine. Hi, Aladdin. The World of Chinese

has been producing Middle Earth Podcast with you for about three years now. So yeah, really happy to be here on your 100th episode. So to be transparent to the audience, both of those people have paid me in the past. So, you know, if you guys want to be one day a guest for the 200th episode, you know what you have to do at some point. Not personally. Yeah, of course. Me neither. Yeah.

I work with Sarah on doing some French translation for Wandering Earth 2. Which he nailed. So today there will be some patting on the back, but we hope that everyone gathered here today and the one listening to this episode down the road so that we can explain basically like how the Middle-Earth podcast started, how we kept it on, hopefully give you a roadmap if any one of you, you know, you want to start your own Zoom AT career and say goodbye to your boss.

I could not believe they're here, but I actually want to thank a lot Tami Thien and Dominique Autenagerard, if you guys could raise your hand. Because they were actually on the first recording roughly six years ago. They were my first two guests. So yeah, time flies. Thank you.

How Middle-of-Podcasts and the world of Chinese goes out, you know, to go out for some stories that are not always put on the international press and the way China cultural industry landscape has changed over the past six years. And so there will be a Q&A and a quiz. And this time, you, dear audience, will be the one who win a prize.

Usually I'm the one who starts the first question, but not today. But this time it's me. So Aladin, I've known you for a few years and you've always struck me as being very motivated and driven. But I'm curious, how did the idea of the podcast come to you in the first place? So I came to China and I almost nine years ago now, I started to learn Chinese and

And I always wanted to work in the film and TV industry because I was told by Arthur Jones, who is a great documentary director, who's done The Six. It's about the passenger, the six Chinese passenger on the Titanic who survived. Great documentary. I would really advise you. And he told me, if you want to work here, you better learn some Chinese. So that's why I've done it. And then I was like, oh yeah, I will find a job. No problem. And yeah,

I spent six months trying to find for something. I finally get it at basically my last own personal deadline after the last week. I'm like, if I don't do it now, I don't know really what I'm going to do. And I found a job. So I thought, okay, this is going to be easy. I got the job. And then as I arrive in Beijing, I'm like, okay, I don't want this to ever happen again. So I will just go have coffee with a lot of producers and a lot of directors.

But everyone's like, who are you again? So the ratio of getting people to talk to me was basically 5% to have a coffee. But then if I said, hey, man, can I interview you? Like what you say is absolutely really interesting. Then suddenly the ratio of people willing to have a coffee with me went up to 50%. So I thought, well, might as well do that. So...

I get a coffee and then I make a content. Also, back in the day, of course, I was listening to a lot of podcasts, like the one of the Seneca Network, for example, and there was almost nothing regarding culture, like cultural industry. Or I guess you have things on China Radio International, but like old stuff. But I guess that's not really what I was into. We applaud your resourcefulness.

How does it feel being interviewed for the podcast rather than asking the questions? It's fine. You're not asking really tough questions so far. Oh man, this is another softball one. So I'm interested in the content of the Middle Earth podcast. I'm actually also interested in the name.

I don't want to say it, but it makes me think of Lord of the Rings. Basically, that was like the mix of the Middle Earth, of Tolkien, which is like this imaginary place, which is like so ingrained in pop culture today and the Middle Kingdom. And it's basically, yeah, let's call it Middle Earth. I mean, I thought...

that was okay. Also, I wanted to avoid, you know, if you look for podcasts in China, you have so many China economy, China history podcasts. I mean, I feel like every time you have a podcast about China, it's all about like a blue, a big red logo. So I wanted to avoid having like China in the middle of it.

So yeah, coming back to the content, I want to know how you select the topics and the stories, because I think a lot of people here, maybe if they're doing their own content about China, it might give them some inspiration. So what makes a great Middle Earth podcast story? First of all, to the audience, can you raise your hand if you're like in some kind of news, journalism, creative work category?

Okay, a solid one-third, half of the room, I guess. I think it always starts with I meet one person that I find really interesting.

And then I will be, oh, this person, like, for example, Sarah that I had on, you know, regarding TV series. And so I knew that she could talk about that topic. And then it's like, okay, I get Sarah. She can talk about TV series, production, writing, how the TV are basically going down and all the internet Chinese platform are going up. How does that change all the creative writing and things like that? And it's like, okay, now I just have to find another person, similar or roughly the same, but someone who works

So that's why I went to Jiajia, who is a producer in TV series. So the both of them, then that makes like a good panel. But once again, I mean, to be clear, the middle of podcast, it's all about how people in China consume content. So it's after all the local regulation have gone through. Like I don't want to go and interview Wang Bing, for example, with this famous Chinese director who lives in France and who does like really particular kind of movie being selected at Cannes that everyone admire in China. But his movie, I think will have some

problem finding an investor here. So it was always about who are the people who do interesting content and how they make it and how they make a living especially. But also that's one thing I realized is that when for each episode that I make, so you would have one guest, I give the number of like 200, 224 guests. But in reality, I've had over 1000 pre-interview because two-thirds of the people are not going to make it. Either they are just not interesting enough or you can smell the bullshit and

No, really far away. And the mic doesn't lie. Like I remember, okay, the topic doesn't help, but it was about NFT. So you can imagine like the kind of BSing thing going on. And when I tried to interview people about NFTs, a couple of them, you could sense they were just like throwing those grandiose adjective and you're like, no, you, I'm sorry, you're not going to make the cut. Like that's not possible, which you don't have to deal in writing, right? Wow.

I guess we have similar struggles in that for every interview you get for an article, you maybe had to ask a dozen people.

I think if you talk to any of TWOX writers, they'd say that they have a similar problem with that. But I guess they don't have to give as much to you for you to interview them and for them to be part of the story. Whereas you're with a podcast, you're trying to get them to sit down for like, I don't know, an hour or so, go through some of the sound checking. That's a bit more intimidating, I think, to an interviewee. Yeah. And you have to be interesting for like 20 minutes at least. Tough.

I think that as long as you're working with people, this is an ongoing process. Like you have to get to know them and there's like a sifting process that you need to get through.

need to figure out who you really want to work with in the long run. Another tip, like I think 90% of my guests, I found them because I went to a party or I went to a party and I met someone who then introduced me to their friend who were interesting. I almost got no one from LinkedIn or from cold email. A couple of times it worked, like you go through LinkedIn or you have like a company Gong Zhong Hao and you send them a message and some of them are like, yeah, sure, we'll take an interview. But 90% of the time, it's just basically people I met

Yeah, in a bar at some point. Why this format? Why a podcast? Because like I said, I needed to get more people which are contact to send them my CV. So then you can...

No, but joke aside, because first of all, like I'm a documentary producer and filmmaker at the beginning. So I wanted to work with audio and sound. When you make a podcast, you take a certain amount of hour. But when you make a video podcast or interview, then you multiply that amount of work by five, basically. So I'm like, I don't have the time for this. And to do only writing, I think that was not going to be interesting enough. I thought might as well do podcasts. And then when you do a podcast, you can be in front of your in your guest for like one hour. At least they're in front of you and they have to spend the time with

so that's how you you know create the connection and then they like you at the end will I like you by the end of this interaction no it should be will he like us because we are asking the question no response well you've been invited to be here on the 100 episodes so yeah don't worry privileged very privileged

So you mentioned that, well, actually before this event, you mentioned that most of your friends who are coming here are very creatively minded people with very independent spirits. What if they want to start their own channel or podcast or something creative on their own? What kind of experience tips that you've accumulated from those six years would have helped, you think?

I can give you even a name, Sam Davis. So like a few weeks ago, we were in the kitchen table at the World of Chinese and he was telling me about his project of doing a substack, right? Have you done the substack? No. Okay. Why is that, Sam? Because I didn't have a good reason to do it. Okay. But why did you want to start it at the beginning, actually? Because everyone has a substack.

For those who don't know, what is a Substack? I think it's like a really journal kind of area thing. It's a newsletter is the easiest way to explain it. Yeah. Platform for newsletters. And yeah, every kind of journalist, analyst, organization has...

seems to have a sub stack now. So I was like, oh, I really want to start a sub stack. And I was like, oh, I know who I'll talk to. I'll talk to Aladdin. So we had this nice one-on-one heart-to-heart chat where he kind of dressed me down and was like, you're doing this all wrong. Also, the reason I started my podcast is because I had a nine-to-five job where I was a film editor in this documentary company. And after six months, I basically saw the...

Glass roof? Glass ceiling. Thank you. I'm just going to do that for the rest of my time in this company and they will never trust me to become a producer or to direct anything. So I think it started like I didn't care to have a single listener as long as I was having coffee with producer down the line. And I think the sub stack would be the same thing. Like at least you would do the sub stack and you would have some kind of legitimacy of asking people to be interviewed.

And then if no one listens, I still will get something out of that. So I'm also right now, six months ago, I started this, it's a made in Chinese, Aladdin, where I basically do short video regarding movies and stuff like that. And I still don't care if no one watched me. Okay, I have 2000 fans now, but...

But at least I'm knowing that now before to do make one short video of three minutes, it would take me two days. Now I'm only at one day. And I know that at some point I have to do it in half a day so that I can make like maybe three video in one go. And at least now when people ask me, do you really speak Chinese? At least I can send them the video. Because until now, so many people think I'm using like a live translator and, you know, just going through Google Translate or chat GPT. And they're like, maybe speak Chinese. I'm not sure. But then when you show the video,

then it works. So yeah, I think what I took away from that conversation we had was that you need a very good reason to do something to give you the motivation to actually follow through with it. And I guess your motivation was partly building your network, getting your CV out there. And one of the things that was holding me back was that I didn't have a good reason to do it other than that everyone else was doing it.

So thanks for that life lesson, Aladdin. You've done a podcast for six years, but you've spent nine years in China. During that time, what have you observed in the Chinese cultural landscape that has shifted or changed?

time break are we missing up part two and we're jumping on I'm waiting for you to ask me a question I'm confused we did not rehearse that well enough this is why we're going to have a post production after that you did the right thing just skipping over no because I was waiting for you to yeah yeah and then it never came story of my life waiting for a man and he never comes don't edit that one

We should do more live events. First, I started this podcast for a few times. And then at some point, I met Anthony Tao. Please raise your hand. Yeah, the guy with the sub stack. We met at the Bookworm. I don't know if anyone remembers this lovely place. And I was like, yeah, I know you work for SubChina. Can you hook me up with Kaiser Guo? You know, I would like to be part of the Seneca network. So this is what happened. So then I was part of it. My listener multiplied by 10.

So that was quite a nice surprise. And then at some point, I will admit that then the World of Chinese did an offer that I could not refuse. No, no, but the question is more like, what was your value to have this podcast joining the World of Chinese magazine brand? I think it was mainly about kind of the values and the content of the podcast matching with what we do.

and specifically like this kind of deep dive one-on-one interaction with people who are working in like culture in China on the ground that being something that our readers couldn't get anywhere else the world of Chinese we're all about doing human-centered unique underreported stories that English language media maybe don't touch on as much and I think

the Middle Earth podcast is something similar in that yeah I really don't think anyone else does anything like it while our magazine is like a very broad range of topics in different formats I think this industry angle so like people who are actually on the ground creating things in

in China, which is obviously very different from the UK or France or the US, is something that really attracted us to you and made us want to steal you from Seneca? But joke aside, no, because I think I always try to basically have one third...

cultural industry, like what's the kind of content those people produce, then one third of business, like how they make the money out of that. And then I think it's one third of sociology. For example, one of our most downloaded episode is about how patriotic influencers gain millions of fans in China. And there was a deep dive about all those people on Weibo and a bit of Bilibili basically, you know, like raising the flag. But there is a whole business model after that, like then they make ads for car and things like that. So I think...

a part of all the politics that was really interesting to dive into those people world and I think that's why it's the most downloaded episode actually and I think that a lot of like other English language stuff kind of like you said about podcasts there's so many like China economy China politics but there isn't so much again like human-centered like on the ground look at like what those kind of bigger trends actually mean for people on the ground and

And I feel like, yeah, this interview format with people who are doing things in industry in China is very valuable.

You've already kind of touched on this, but maybe we can still go back to it. If you had any other tips for people who are wanting to start a podcast or a Substack or anything else, what would you give them? Just do it and it will be bad the first time. I'm just stealing MrBeast's quote. It's not me saying it, but it's like the first video will suck and let's go back and talk at the video 100. And I really think...

If you have any personal project, first know why you want to do it, like what's your end goal, meet more people, learn a technical skill, prove something to yourself and then just keep doing it. But then you really have to hold on long enough to be honest. And I think that's it. I think at the end of the day, it was always a pleasure for me to keep doing the Middle-Of podcast for over 100 episodes because it's really like I kept meeting new people, entering new worlds.

it's also pushed me to you know being a little bit more ready for example with Sarah we also did a couple of episodes regarding a Chinese film that are recently coming out and I think that was also a good thing for me to you know push myself to go to the cinema and make sure like to be with the trend and

And I think in parties, that's also a good thing. You know, you have like one more things that you can talk about. At the same time, sometimes it's a bit infuriating because sometimes people just keep preferring me as the podcaster. And, you know, I've directed documentary. I've produced some here in China. So I think it's a little bit more than that. So I think sometimes people can corner you a little bit in something. So you've had a podcast for six years. You've been in China for nine years.

During this nearly one decade of stay here, what have you observed have changed in the cultural landscape? What has shifted? And how do you feel about that? Well, such a big question. Again, it's all like personal perspective. I think, first of all, there's a bit less money flying around. I think, Sarah, you would agree with that. But even back in 2019, I knew this French cameraman who was like a DP, like Director of Photography for Movies.

And you were saying for the whole year of 2019, like every month, one big producer would come and say, hey, man, I've got the one project for you. And every month in 2019 already, then those things got canceled.

Then on top of that, you had COVID, so that changed a lot of things. And then later on, we'll hear to a couple of people that we interview, previous guests. We're going to share a one-minute clip of how the industry has changed. But I do think if there is less money, at least there is more professionalism. I think that's how I would see it. It's a big question for a big topic. Yes.

But I do think Chinese audiences are getting more and more tough on what kind of content they want to see and consume. Yes, I agree. The capital has become cautious. I remember when probably eight years ago, eight, ten years ago,

There was every kind of project flying around and somehow they could all get financed. And that was quite amazing, but not anymore. So I propose, dear audience, dear interviewer, that we're going to listen to a testimony by Li Su Wan. So she's been on the show a few episodes ago. She runs a bookstore called Mazaran, which is not far from here, actually. And so, yeah, I ask her how things have done. She actually started her bookstore like five years ago, almost roughly at the same time as the podcast.

Let's hear what she has to say.

Hello, I am Li Suwan, owner of the Meziran Bookstore. Over the past five years, my personal observation has been that the variety of books published in mainland China has become increasingly more diverse, both in terms of book design and content richness. I feel that the quality has improved over time. Regarding the type of books, I perceive that topics relevant to women in mainland China are also becoming more abundant and diverse. Moreover, in

Over in terms of marketing strategies, we notice a growing trend towards online promotion, such as the use of short video formats, particularly regarding how now influencers endorse books. Additionally, many publishing houses in China now operate their own social media accounts or short video platforms. This trend poses a significant challenge to physical bookstores, a traditional distribution channel. However, we possess our own unique advantage, the physical space where customers can have an immersive experience.

In this evolving landscape, while digital channels may dominate, the charm of physical bookstores remains irreplaceable, akin to a timeless sanctuary amidst the bustling currents of modernity. And when we interviewed her, that was interesting to hear that when she has a bookstore, she makes one third of sales in books, one third in coffee and one third in events. So basically, like you have one space and you have to go all across the board to basically keep the rent up.

It's a lovely bookstore. I've been there. Okay, I was expecting more reaction, but sure. Hi, this is Yang Yu of Media Festival, working as stage manager and also for international relations. To my observation, the changes in the Chinese music industry are strongly affected by official regulations and restrictions on culture and finance section, especially for mass events.

it thrives with more open policies and declines accordingly with restrictions. The other tendency I see is that the music market is turning more into an entertainment market, regardless if it comes to online listening or live shows. The

Someone is not that positive on that.

Someone's clapping, agreeing in the back. But Sarah, you don't really agree with that statement, do you? Well, no. Off the top of my head, no. Because my personal experience is that all this... But then I am like an amateur music lover. I'm not really... Just please talk to the mic. Don't look at me. Talk to the mic. Sorry. I'm not extreme. So handsome.

Not extremely knowledgeable in the world of music, but in my personal experience, the variety shows and 公众号, like the WeChat authors, self-media authors, have made it easier for me than 10 years ago, definitely, to get to know some

very original musicians who are creating songs with depth and social observance. I'm really appreciating this change in the music

but I guess it's different angles. I asked another friend who works in a label in Kunming and he told me that actually he sees that at least the one good part of the story regarding the music industry in China is that now there are more and more bands now want to come back here and tour and also like

they are managing to put some Chinese band on Spotify and they get slowly more and more listener and apparently royalties you know like when you play music and then if a radio or if any restaurant plays your song at some point you have to pay for that you have to pay the artist and the royalties apparently are getting bigger and bigger

So at least that's positive things, apparently, on this side. Well, this third person works in video game. I'm just going to pirate what she's going to say, and then I'm going to re-edit in post-production. Basically, what she's saying is that at least in video game... In the last six years, the Chinese gaming industry has seen some huge changes. Thanks to the widespread use of smartphones, mobile games have become the main force in the industry, joining hundreds of millions of players. With tighter government control on game licenses...

Many companies are now looking to market abroad. Games like Mahou Yo's Genshin Impact and NetEase's Naraka PlayPoint have successfully worked into international markets and thrived across various platforms and regions. At the same time, a lot of companies are investing heavily in the global gaming market.

significantly increasing their global influence. There's also been a surge in indie games in China, particularly on international platforms like Steam, which lets Chinese indie devs reach a worldwide audience. Titles like Dice and Seal Program, My Time in Portia, and Party Animals are just a few that have done really well. Despite various challenges, China's gaming industry is entering an exciting phase of rapid growth.

And last, I guess we can talk about cinema and TV series. So Sarah, how have things have changed over the past five, six years? I know you already said like there are less money, but can you elaborate a little bit? Maybe also the topic of movies that are being sought after, things like that. First of all, I think for as far as I can remember, I think decentralization has been a slow but sure process.

when we were younger, well, at least when I was younger, I think most of my generation living in China, people watch the same series, they watch the same films. Back when we only had 10 imported films a year, that was the quota.

And in the past, I think, five, six years with the streaming platforms, with self-media, with smartphones, with editing tools and various technologies that are becoming more accessible and you can manage individually, I think decentralization means that

Not everyone is forced to consume the same content that's sanctioned by a central channel or a central authority. But you can pick and choose from a multitude of contents from very well-known creatives to

very unknown creatives, as long as you like it and you think it's worthy to spend your time and sometimes money on it. And I think that's very exciting in a way that people get to. It resembles more a free market than years ago. But does that mean you have like commissioners who,

platform commissioner banging on your door asking for the best script you've written recently or... Well, we can see that trend in novels, I think, more than scripts and other kind of cinematic art in that there are countless websites for and apps for reading novels and

And I know that film executives and series executives from streaming platforms, sometimes they will have people just sifting through these apps looking for the best content to adapt. And many of these literature apps and platforms, they have their executives like shopping to cinematic and dramatic executives online.

for their content. So I think that's possible because writing a novel is relatively easy to achieve. You don't need a big group of people. But at the beginning of this year, when Sora became known for the first time and it was like a rock into the--it was a big splash of wave of panic

through our industry. But I think with tools like that, maybe one day we will have apps and platforms for individual filmmakers too, where it's relatively easy to make your vision into real visuals and then pitch them to executives. Okay, I think that can be the last part of our talk to the three of us regarding AI. So how is the world of Chinese using the AI tools? Are you hiring any writers anymore?

Yeah, the magazine you're holding is all written by AI.

No, cut that. No, we do use it every day though, I think. And I think I'd be surprised if there are any like kind of news organizations now that don't use it. But the things we use it for are, I guess you kind of see like ChatGPT or something like that as an assistant. So it can help you with research, could potentially help with editing, like copy, copy editing and proofing. But if you ask it to write something, it's,

it's basically not very good and you can kind of tell when it's something is written by AI I think I'd be very interested to know other people how other people are using it in in like news and reporting and articles but yeah that's basically how we've been using it oh and also we've been using it for some illustrations yeah our design team will use it and then maybe edit it but always labeled what about you Sarah do you use AI every day when you write your script not when I write my script but I do use it every day I think I cannot live without it now

I've also known other friends, directors, production designers, they use Midjourney to generate images. So to use them as pitch graphics when they're pitching a project. And I'm pretty sure, well, not pretty sure, but I hope one day we are able to generate sizzler reels using AI because otherwise you have to, you know, when you're editing a sizzler reel, that's before you actually make your film. You have to go through

different movies with the same ambience, with the same editing pace and painstakingly edit all the little snippets together. I'm hoping that AI could help in that part as well. For writing, I use AI to select through the materials. Sometimes people would send me a novel, they say, "Oh, I think you're going to love it."

And I have AI read the first 200,000 words and give me a synopsis. I'm like, oh, I have zero interest in that. So pass. That's very useful. Yes. Oh my God.

So now moving on to hopefully the part with the interaction of the public. After all, I've been bugging my friends long enough so that they can come here and support us. I don't know if anyone... So basically here is the mic over there. I can ask a question from the front row. Yes, you can. Okay, please. He stands up. Okay, great. Okay, so wait, wait. Can you please... What did you have for breakfast this morning? I had yogurt with blueberries and granola for breakfast this morning. Okay, this is amazing. Thank you. That was a technical test. Don't be...

Don't be afraid. Okay. Would you like to know what I had for lunch? Okay. That's fine. So, can you first please state your name, your occupation, and ask a question? My name is Dan Murtaugh. I'm a journalist here in Beijing. And I'm obviously a very long-time devoted listener to the Middle Earth podcast. But as a centenary... How many episodes? We'll get to that later.

As a centenary episode, I feel like this is going to have a huge wide impact and maybe some first time listeners are listening. So I was going to ask all three of you guys if you might have a favorite moment or a favorite episode from the run of Middle Earth that you could tell people about so they could learn more about the podcast. There's a couple. I think I really like the one about patriotic influences. Like you said, I think I can tell why that one got so much attention.

interest from other listeners it's a topic that like you don't read much about and the guests were extremely insightful i thought i also the one i also like was the one where you talked about the world of chinese's 100th magazine issue and i recommend everyone listens to that our old friend my predecessor hattie leo was on the podcast

So that was a great one. And then just a shout out to, again, the quiz, which I every time I listen to the podcast, I think is just insanely difficult, like impossible. I'm surprised anyone ever wins the quiz.

But I like that. I like that you have this devilish, once all your guests are done, they've got no energy, they're ready to go home, you ask them these impossible questions. I like that. Okay. Well, you're asking me, Dan, what's my favorite child? I think this is going to be hard to answer this one. I think my favorite episode was number 64, which was about gambling. So we made this series about drug, porn, and drugs.

and gambling and actually the gambling episode was the best one compared to the other two and there was like a whole basically if you listen to the episode like you can make a Netflix series about like a crime in the Philippines it's just amazing like you guys should definitely listen to episode 64 if there's only one to listen

Hi there, my name is Ivan Stacey. I'm Associate Professor in Literature at Beijing Normal University. Firstly, congratulations for the 100th episode and thanks for sharing your tips so far. I'm after more tips because actually I've just launched my own podcast which is called The World Literature Podcast, so not China-based and trying to look globally. You said some very interesting things about filtering out potentially not very good interviewees

I'm just curious when you have interviews in front of you, any tips for bringing the best out in them? You have to make them talk 10 minutes because the first 10 minutes of an interview is excruciating. I mean, you've seen the poor Sam. I'm just basically pushing him to put his chair in a certain way so that he talks in front of the mic so that then he sounds good in post-production. So the first 10 minutes are weird because you're pushing people to be in front of a mic and they...

yeah i think most of the time they don't realize what's going on they don't understand what's the whole small technical stuff and after 10 minutes they basically let their guard down and then they get better but you must do a pre-interview i've had some people

only white middle-aged men, I must say. No, but I'm serious. And I'm like, hey man, can I interview you about topic A? And they're like, yeah, sure. When is the recording? I'm like, ah, wait a minute. Can we have a pre-interview first? I just want to make sure that, you know, you're kind of legit. I don't say it this way, but that's kind of the reason why I do the pre-interview. And then most of them are, and two specific person are like, I don't do pre-interview. So I'm like, well, no, sorry. Goodbye. So if you have good guests, I think you have to go through them

And then if they're good, they're just going to be good. And if they're bad, they're just going to be bad, unfortunately. Like if those people are flaky and don't want to be interviewed, they will never be interviewed. They will never accept. They are just like pushing excuses. So...

I think it's like you're in a party. If the person is interesting, it will be interesting all the way. That's it. Yeah, okay. Beware of white middle-aged men. I realize I'm kind of middle-aged myself now. Thank you. Hi, this is Will. It's such a pleasure to be here. I am a podcaster myself in Beijing. Again, we know that journalism today, particularly outside China, are facing major obstacles and challenges. And especially you mentioned regarding the technological advancement like AI. Do you think that the presence of AI...

elevate the authenticity of the podcast production or actually brings more challenges and hurdles to the podcast production. Thank you.

I think for podcast... Because I think AI, seriously, AI in podcast production is barely used by me. I mean, I just find the guests, I just meet them in parties or I stalk them on the internet and then I find a common friend. And then I do the pre-interview, I don't use AI. Then I do the interview, I don't use AI. Maybe for the recording, like for the editing, maybe that could be useful, but I'm not so sure now.

Because maybe you can tell the AI how to cut all the clips and the breathe, but how will AI recognize what's the interesting sentence versus the one which is not interesting? I think this is really hard. In terms of video, for example, but on the other side, if you do a documentary and you do a one-hour interview and then you can keep only 30 seconds, before we had to transcript the whole interview just to work with the editor. And now today you just put it on Premiere Pro

you snap, then it's not perfect, but it's at 95% perfect. Now at least you can go through the entire interview and you can even then copy paste it, put it on Google Translate if you don't speak Chinese or Portuguese or whatever. So I think in podcasting, AI is not going to be useful that much now, in the future maybe, but I think it's going to be so much useful in other areas. I mean, I've been following your Aladdin Shuo Dian Ying for quite a while on WeChat. And I will start with Salute, which I

definitely love it and my question is like pretty simple because I

I mean, I'm working for the consulting industry and we also have the saying that you have to believe what you're saying. And I think for the industry like consulting or sales, like gradually you just kind of forget where you're starting from, like lose your true sin. So I checked like basically every- Are you saying you're lying to your clients or something? I am not. I still have my true sin right now. So my question for you is, because I checked each one of the episodes that you post on WeChat, I'm a loyal fan.

And normally you kind of like start with one movie which is really popular recently and you give like a relevant recommendations. So my question is like, do you like recommend the movies? Like you watched each one of them. - Yes.

Do you recommend them because that's a really popular topic or because you sincerely love the movies you recommended or both? Also, once again, why I do my Zometi in Chinese is also because I feel even if I have a great friend like Sarah who makes me work on amazing movies such as Wandering Earth 2, I also try to break the fourth wall of meeting more people. For those who don't know, so basically I take one movie recently which has been in Chinese cinema

And I will tell, okay, if you like that movie, then you should watch those three international movies which are kind of related in some way. And then I... So if you don't know what... Okay. And so to answer your question, I would recommend a movie that I really like personally. That's all. And there are some movies that I know everyone likes them. But I'm like, I'm not so fan of this one. Or maybe let's go for this one, which is a little bit less known now.

and recommend this one instead. But I don't know, I think it's the magic of short video and the algorithm, you just have to put so much more content to see what works. And I don't know, I had some video who made almost 15,000 views, and then the one after it was 300. So you really feel like you're in front of the God Almighty who decides what works and what doesn't, and it's a bit...

It does. It sounds like you still maintain that 100% passion together with your professionalism while doing the things you loved deeply. Yeah, and making tons of money, of course. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Xiaodan, I'm a journalist. I have a question. So you've done a lot of production on documentaries, you talk about movies, you interviewed so many people in the cultural industry. Do you have a story that you want to tell or do you have a movie you want to make and what is it? That would be the online gambling industry. But I think recently that's been more common, you know, all the scam that appears on international press like the killing the pig thing.

Plague slaughtering. Plague slaughtering, sorry, thank you. And I think that's basically how COVID, the border were closed and many people would go to Laos or the Philippines to gamble. Basically, they could not go there anymore and everyone was stuck at home.

And then a lot of people were online and then a lot of online gambling started. And I think that's our episode number 64, which is basically about that. I think at some point, like apparently sometimes the Filipino government receives a phone call with like a checklist of people to put on a plane and the plane is ready waiting for them. So all those people are doing like illegal online gambling industry. So I think this is one topic that we like to make. I'm looking forward to see it. If you need help. Yeah.

Join the team. Hi, I'm Tim. I'm an analyst at an embassy of a small country here in Beijing. France. France.

It's not France. I do speak French, though. So you've basically touched upon it already. And you've mentioned that basically the way you organize interviews is like it's a third talking about the topic at hand, the way they make money, and then a bit of sociology. You haven't touched too much in this episode yet on how you actually make money. If you...

I know a lot of people here might be familiar with what you do, but maybe the listeners aren't. And you've mentioned that you're getting paid by the world of Chinese, but how was it before? And how have things developed, basically?

Funny anecdote, like when I started the podcast, actually, it's funny how memory plays. When I started the podcast, I thought I was going to be the one expert on industry, cultural industry, and a lot of people in Sunset Boulevard, they're going to call me and be like, man, I got this amazing project with Vin Diesel and whatever. I never received a phone call. I only got a couple of people like, hey, can you read my script? So that

which was nice enough, but that's it. So doing a podcast is not a way to grab listeners' attention and then make money. So the business model is that I started with the world of Chinese, but also at the same time, I started working with this documentary company in Hope Picture.

And if I look at the whole people that I met, it's thanks to the podcast again. So that's how I started working with both of those companies. And I could quit my job. And since then, I've been... Yeah, like just today, I sent an email. I'm helping the local branch of Discovery of buying like a dinosaur, 3D dinosaur footage from a French company. So, you know, it can be really random. Or do subtitles.

Also at some point I was also helping some YouTubers to go on Bilibili because Bilibili had like so many people who got their videos stolen. I was telling them "Hey man, you have already fans in China, don't you want to go?" So it really branched out in a lot of direction. A lot of failure, a few success, but so far so good.

Hi, my name is Stacy. I have a special education company here in Beijing. But you are also on episode 67 regarding... Video games. Yes, indeed. So if you guys want to talk about special education or video games, come find me.

The overlap is huge. All right. But yeah, I like generalizations. So I want to know, of all the people that you've interviewed, are there noticeable patterns or differences between people that you've interviewed that are Chinese or people that you've interviewed abroad? I mean, apart from the white men being very...

Yeah, you get it. Yeah, that was actually in my notes of what we should have talked tonight. Thank you. You're welcome. So basically, I realized that there was a really interesting pattern, which is kind of sad. So at the top of the... I was about to say the food chain. That's not the food chain. At the top of the pyramid, you have basically, yeah, like white dudes. And they would be really confident. Even you would ask them, can you help me look for someone in your industry who does that? And then they're like, I can do the interview. I'm like, no, no, that's not what I asked.

I want to ask someone who is in the same industry but not exactly your same job and they are like, I will do it. Okay, yeah, thank you so much, but...

I guess you're not listening. And then the people that I have the hardest to convince are women who are born and raised in China and would almost never interacted with an international company or who didn't study abroad. And basically, if you have someone who's been abroad, they would be a little bit more open. And then if it's like, I don't know, someone from an ABC, for example, like they would be okay to talk. So I can really see that

to convince a Chinese woman who've never been abroad, that's like the hardest part ever. And really sometimes like some people, they keep saying like, oh, I don't think I'm, what's the word? Legitimate for this. And you just have to tell them,

And after the fifth time you just can't keep doing it. I mean at some point I think then that becomes harassment. So after a few times you're like, well, okay, if you don't want to do it, then I guess we won't. But that's a little bit sad. So my name is Eloise. I'm a researcher here in Beijing. And so I'm curious because you've been in China for nine years and you've been doing the PostCAD for six years. Now looking back and in retrospect, are there any things that you would have done differently before?

starting arriving in China and then studying Chinese and launching this podcast to first you know get to know people in the industry here and also I wanted to ask you do you have any sort of vision or goal for the podcast or even for your personal creative project for the next you know five ten years here you're asking me to do a introspection in front of a lot of people yeah thank you what's your five-year plan yeah what's my five-year plan they're all friends you said oh yeah yeah

I think if I would restart everything then maybe actually, I'm not sure, but I think I would have actually studied a lot to do camera, to be a cameraman. I think those are the people who get the best out of it. But at the same time my long-term goal is to be personal, I want to be a showrunner, so that's basically the producer who writes like a TV series, so that's like the ultimate goal and I think it's all about

doing research, writing, pushing people to be on time and that's kind of a... yeah. I mean podcast is like 1% of what those people do but I think it's kind of in that way and yeah at least I get to meet a lot of people and also I do know that because some of people, I mean you did know Jiajia but I do know that some of my guests then they are in the same industry and then later on they would actually start working together or have a project

My name is Lin. So I'm quite interested in your work, which is invisible for us. I mean, you have done 2,000 podcasts. No, 100. Tomorrow will be 1,000.

So I'm thinking if you can share with us the most interesting topic for you, or the episodes that you really want to do, but finally you did make it. I think the one episode I really want to do right now is the one regarding true crime content, like how people make a true crime podcast, true crime video. But yeah, it's a bit hard to convince some people to...

be in front of the mic. So that's, yeah, that's unfortunately the way it is. But yeah,

One person has said yes so far. I just need a second one and then we can move on with that. All right, so now we're going to move on to the last part of the show, my favorite. So we're going to do a small quiz. So how this is going to work, I'm going to ask three questions. If you know the answer, you raise your hand and you shout your name at the same time. It's like a pop quiz, basically. And then if you're fast enough, I will pick you. And then you can basically scream the answer. If you get the answer correctly,

you will get the point and then we'll move out to the knockout stage. We're gonna select three half-winners and then the three winners are gonna compete on the last level to... Yeah, so this is really competitive. Okay, alright. Question number one... Dan's not gonna be able to raise his hand like he's holding two beers. Okay, no, he's ready now.

Okay, question number one about publishing. Who is the author, I mean according to our research, who is the author still alive writing fiction work who is the most published in China? Dan? J.K. Rowling. No, Chinese writer in China. I think he's the second one. Okay. No. Yes. Yes, yes, it is Yu Hua. Congratulations.

Okay, so now you cannot answer a question. You have to wait until the knockout stage comes. Okay. Question number two. In 2023, what is the biggest Chinese video game company? Tencent. Yes, it is Tencent.

Alright, so it is Tencent. Thank you, Stacey. You move out to the next stage. Question number three regarding cinema. Because you know I'm French, I have to ask a question about France. So with the Cannes Festival coming next month, can anyone tell me which Chinese director was the most selected at this Cannes Film Festival? Louise? No. No.

No. No, the lady standing in the back. Lawyer. No, it's not lawyer. Wang Bing has been nominated once. Maybe you need a clue, like what are his films? No, but guys, I mean... Yeah, but I think if we give the hint, they're just gonna... It's too obvious. If we give a hint, it's too obvious. Wen Mo Yeh.

I don't think Guan Hu and Wen Muye have ever been nominated at Cannes. Am I into the winner's bracket? Jia Yu got it right. But he encouraged it. Okay, so please all winners stand up. So I'm going to ask a question. Then each of you are going to say numbers and you're going to say it one by one. So it's like the closest to the number wins.

And we'll go by the order of the people that won the questions. So, question 4 to get a final winner. So after a steady rise of many years, in 2019, China's box office was 60 billion yuan. In 2019. As you can imagine, pandemic, it goes down. But now, in 2023,

What was the box office numbers? So 2019 was 64 billion yuan. How much is it in 2023? And each of you will basically have to come up with a number and the closest to it will win the quiz. Can I ask for a hint? So after 2023, after COVID, did it rebound above 64 or is it still below 64? Well, I'm obviously not going to. Okay.

Okay, so please leave the mic, say your name and say your number. So you're asking the box office in 23, right? Yes. I think it was 40 billion Chinese yuan. Okay, we have 40 billion for Li Li. Stacey, 63.9 billion. 45 billion. Wow, that's rude.

So the answer is 54 billion. Oh, that's you. If you didn't say 0.9. Damn. I'm off by 0.9. Wow. I tried cell phone. Well, congrats, Anthony. Well, you know, you put me up on the Seneca podcast. I guess you deserve to win the quiz. Thank you.

All right. On that note, please, we'll wrap up the show. So glad to have you, Sam and Sarah. Thank you. Also, dear listeners and dear audience to stay until the end of the recording. If you want to help the Mineral Earth podcast to grow, you can recommend us to your friends. Let me remind you, in case you have not realized until now, that Mineral Earth is part of the World of Chinese podcast network. If you want to know more behind the headlines, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy.

Also, if you are impressed by this show guest and need to find an interviewee for your next documentary piece or use a researcher in China, you can give us a call. As we reach 100 episodes, I would like to thank in chronological order Steve Seidenberg, Li Muyuan, Brendan Gonzales, Shane Calvo, Alex Goldville, Hatilio, Drago Scaccio and all the team at The World of Chinese, all the guests of today and the previous guests.

Today's episode was produced by Aladin Fahre, Sam Davis and Sarah Huang. It will be edited by me, Aladin Fahre. It was a public event that could not have been made possible without Wendy Xu, Hu Qi-fei, Wang Siqi and Roman Kirst, music by Sean Calvo and distributed by the World of Chinese Podcast Network. Hope to see you next time, maybe for the episode 200. Bye-bye. Basically, what she's saying is that, at least in video game, like...

Important phone call. What can be more important than the middle of podcast? I don't get it. Looks like our listeners are still doing their dishes. We're really committed to their workout. For sure. Since we're still here, if you want to learn more about Chinese society, culture and language, you should head to theworldofchinese.com and follow us on WeChat, TikTok and Instagram.

and Instagram, where you'll discover an impressive collection of award-winning in-depth stories and fun, informative videos, as well as amazing podcasts. Of course. Well, until the next issue then.