#102 Remote Creatives
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Hello everyone, I am with LJ, editor of the World of Chinese magazine, which commissions Middle Earth. Hi Aladdin. So LJ, what are the exclusive stories that you guys have worked on this issue 104? We focus on how urban Chinese residents are reconnecting with nature. So they are lacking nature now? Absolutely. They discovered that there is a serious lack of nature education among urban kids right now. It has a negative impact on them, but there is also a strong effort to change the situation.

In a related story, we explored how a well-designed zoo in Nanjing has attracted large group of followers and how it has inspired them to care more about nature and wildlife.

And so in this issue, what are the others' articles? Yeah, we also took a cruise ship down the Yangtze River, traced the history of game consoles in China, and uncovered why Hunan Cuisine in particular is taking China by storm right now. So dear listeners, if you want to know more and support the podcast, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy. It seems that we can only rely on ourselves. The earth has made the last return to China.

This is not a safe place. I think the two of them are going to be able to get the woman's head.

Link in the podcast description.

Also, I must say that yesterday was my 36th birthday, but that doesn't stop me from recording the Middle Earth podcast here in Songzhong, so I hope I don't sound too tired as I'm recording this episode. Taking a sidestep regarding China cultural industry, after some recent travel that I have done today on the show, I wanted to talk about remote communities of artists living in places that are a bit far away from creative centers.

I think it will come to no surprise for the listeners who know that if you want to work in cultural industry and no matter where on the planet, it's better to live near big metropolis, which are the places where basically the money and the decision maker live. Yet there are like some pockets of creative living far away from those big tier one cities in China.

So to throw some numbers, following the COVID pandemic in September 2023, over 100,000 people moved over to Dali. So Dali in Yunnan, which could be considered like as the Chinese Chiang Mai, and a huge chunk of those people were artists. In 2021, an article by the Hunan Rebao claimed that there were over 10,000 artists in Songzhuang, Beijing remote suburbs, and there are also 300 art institutions over there.

And to give another example, which is a bit far away from us, but what I find interesting is that sometimes like to put some art in a remote location, that could be a good thing for the local economy. So if we take the example of the Bilboa Museum in the Basque country in Spain, we can see that in this area, which had like a really low GDP, saw a great boost of in the economy after they build up the famous contemporary art museum in Bilboa. And we can see this example being replicated in Jingdezhen, which is in Jiangxi province.

which is like really famous for the local porcelain production where tourists are attracted to go and visit local artists. And in 2021, tourism revenue was over 5 billion yuan. So today to talk about this balance between kind of, I know it's kind of a weird episode, but to talk about urban design, price rent, creativity and tourism. So I have two guests. Also, I traveled all the way to Songzhuang, to this far away Beijing city, where basically like we...

just are a few streets away from Hebei province. Like to tell you how remote we are. So next to me, Xiao Dong, hello. - Hey, hello. - So that's the moment when you self-present. - Okay, I'm Guo Xiao Dong. I'm a film producer and editor. I've been working in independent films

for 20 years. And now we are where we are now is Songzhuang, the suburb area of China of Beijing, sorry. We are outside of the sixth ring of Beijing. If everyone knows about Beijing, it's like

you know it's separated into zone and the circles you know all around the city center so we are quite far from the city center so here is like a art village in numbers i think there's more than 7 000 artists still living here even after covid so it's a quite uh art you know like art uh quite

quite big important art zone all over Beijing or even in China. But it is pretty remote like just to get there like from city center you would need one hour and a half and you don't you guys don't have yet subway stops like you after the subway you still have to take a bus so well at least there are buses but yeah it's a pretty interesting place to to go. And with us on the Tencent meeting call in Jingdezhen actually Ryan hello.

Hello, I'm Ryan Labar and I'm from the United States and I came to Jingdezhen almost nine years ago where I was one of the first international artists at the Ceramic International Porcelain Studio in Taochichuan which was a brand new project the government was building on the grounds of an old plate factory that was shut down and left to ruins and now it's been rebuilt into this thriving gallery artist space

restaurant, tourist porcelain market. And it continues to grow to this day. You may hear some construction in the background every so often, which has been the music in my ears for the past nine years. But I'm a practicing ceramic artist. I started my ceramic journey over 20 years ago in academia and then slowly found my way back to where it all began, which is in this city where the first porcelain objects were made. And

the energy here and the layers of history that are here for anyone working in clay, you just come and visit it. And when I visited it, I fell in love with it and ended up building a studio. And now I make my art objects and distribute and sell them throughout China. And I'm very happy to be here.

So today, yeah, we'll talk about those remote communities and how they are actually really remote, the relationship between those towns and the art and the business model for those creative living over there. To start, like I was wondering, like, is it like a romantic life, you know, of living in those kind of remote locations with like those commune of artists and people surrounding you, I guess, with like IDs flowing around and living in a cheap rent. So is it like a great romantic artistic life or maybe a bit more complicated than that?

It should be. It used to be somehow like that, like 10 years ago I think. Everyone lives separately and a lot of people are also in their own business. Like me, more and more I'm more into my own business I think and less time for some kind of meetings with the other artists.

or some less time for like a common life, let's say, even though we are trying to build up still a community here. But I think in terms of how it can be different from the city center, I think it's still there. You know, we are living in the area.

We have more artists than local villagers. Everyone's different. They are making different art. Less people travel to city center every day. So we stay here and live our own life here. Because I think most of the producers that I know in film and TV, they would still live in the city center and maybe in Gaobedian, which is still okay and it's not that far. But could you... I was pretty impressed with...

with your business model, let's say Xiaodong. So could you describe a little bit like how that works? Like if I can spill the beans, basically like you, you live far away, you pay really cheap rent and then you would work on really international projects and you give classes. One of the movies you worked on was actually sent to Berlin festival. So I feel like the fact that you're in this remote, cheap location kind of really empowers you to start

to have a business model, basically? Yeah, let's say we are quite far from the film industry in China. The reason why we are still here is to, we can meet people, meet filmmakers, the other producers, technicians,

technicians that we work all uh in some independent film projects that's the only reason we are still here otherwise we can uh produce and make films from everywhere you know in the world so that's why we are still here we uh we meet those people you know who has something uh related to our activities but not more than that let's say we have more uh contact with uh

with more contacts with foreign countries than with China. But despite that, yeah, you still live here. So Ryan, I was wondering, can you describe for the people who have not been in Jingdezhen, could you describe a little bit the environment that you live in?

which is because I've been there like years ago in a really cold winter during my Chunjie vacation that was I think the most horrible time to go see the city but yeah can you describe Jingdezhen as a city and how is it like the community and the artists

which is really far away from those bustling city centers of Sanlitun or the French Concession in Shanghai. That's true. However, every year it seems to get closer and closer because when I first came here, there was no high-speed rail from Shanghai to Jingdezhen, and getting to Jingdezhen was quite difficult. It was fraught with late plane schedules and slow trains. Now it's like four hours and 20 minutes, but by high-speed train, now it's three and a half hours, and I hear there may even be a faster train coming.

Jingdezhen is, it's an interesting city in the fact that it's changing dramatically year by year. When I first came here, it was a bustling city that I considered a little bit chaotic. The traffic was all over the place. There weren't lines on the streets. There weren't

a pedestrian crossing. I was scared to walk across the street. Throughout the time, as I've evolved from walking to car, the traffic has also evolved to where it's manageable. And looking at the city, it's now become a planned city where it's ordered, there's less traffic,

car honking, there's less crazy chaotic energy and it's laid out for a tourist market. So people come from the train and they go to this community I'm in which is Tao Chi Chuan which is the center of the city and they go to the Imperial Kiln Park which is the old center of the city right on the river where the first imperial ceramic objects were made for the imperial court in Beijing. There was an energy here that attracted people and

When I first came here, there was a thriving resident artist community, and that community has just grown and grown. It was a little bit paused during COVID, but now it's full on. Now there's international artists coming from all over the world to make work here for a few months, and there's then a lot of domestic artists since COVID.

finding their way to the city. What kind of kick-started this will to do this podcast was... So after we recorded the 100th episode of Middle-Earth, I took a small vacation and I went to Dali. And I've been there years and years ago, but when I came back, I was really surprised to see how many...

Basically, you could sense the city had so many people who wanted maybe to find themselves and be creative and live off cheap rents. Then Xiaodong and myself, we ended up on some panel conversation at some point. And I came to visit his office and see some of the project he's working on.

so Xiaodong I'm wondering like could you also explain like are there a lot of those kind of let's say maybe things have changed like both of you guys already maybe it's not as remote community creative cut from the world and stuff like that but could you also are there like other kind of community like this like the one in Songzhong when you are are there like other places like this in China that are kind of famous for being like hotspot for creative and artists to congregate and work I think Dali is one of

destination you mentioned Dali before I think that was like Dali and Lijiang is like a tourist very tourist tourist place but still there's

artists living there like musicians you know painters filmmakers I know they are there for like also for almost 20 years so this like Dali and Lijiang and Tongli you know there's another small town some kind of small town like ancient town

transformed into some tourist place as well but the living cost is as low as here in a village like here in Songzhuang

like Tongli Guzheng is like another place near, not far from Shanghai. It's like in one hour or two driving distance from Shanghai. And like in Hainan Island, there's Houhai Yucun. It's like very alternative place for young people to pass short time vacation. I mean, I say young people is because most of the people there are like, they're quite famous for surf, you know,

There's some school for surfing. Okay, I didn't realize that until now, but it's interesting to see that actually those kind of remote communities of artists, they are actually linked to tourism, right?

or they are linked to some really ancient production center of craft, like Jinzho-jen. So I feel it seems like you don't have a creative commune of people living in Dongbei or in some random town in Inner Mongolia or something like this. If there are no tourism or if there are no proper industry of some sort, then there won't be any artists going there. I think the fact that the artists gather together, that's really for these two main reasons. There's already a group of artists started there

the same like in Songzhuang. This is one, maybe one of the starting points. Songzhuang is not an ideal place for living, frankly speaking. But since more and more people coming here, you know, it become like the center of the art. And then the other reason, of course, is like if this is a touristic place, it's already means it's the living place, you know, it's like ideal living place for a lot of people. Well,

What I was also interested to talk about during this podcast was the link between the urbanism and the creative process. And after all the conversation that I had with you guys prior to this interview, I sensed that the formula was basically cheap rent plus artist equals like interesting community. So Ryan, do you think that would be a correct assessment?

Yeah, I do think that's a correct assessment. I think that once the artist community starts to blossom in any sort of city center, then business follows, you know, the bars, the coffee shops, the places where artists can congregate to share ideas and projects.

And then as a result, those local communities, the land owners then see an influx of people who are interested in renting and with demand, rental demand comes increased prices. And when increased prices hit to a certain level, developers start coming in and thinking, oh, well, we can start building larger scale housing projects or homes.

and then that increases the rent even further. And I don't know if that's true for you, Xiaodong, but in Jingdezhen, the prices have gone up, and I've been searching for another studio, and I remember what the rent was like five years ago, and now I'm like, I don't want to pay that. And so I stay in my original studio, and then I fight to keep my rent as low as it is.

In Songzhuang, the rental price was doubled already five years ago. Now it's like tripled, I think, compared to, let's say, when I moved in eight years ago. So you don't want to cross the border to Hebei, maybe, and pay even less? No.

Hebei also was doubled. This is somehow the same. That makes us live differently. Intentionally or not, we have to adapt to the living cost of today's living cost. It was not as free, as easy as before. Let's say before we pass only one week, let's say we don't think about what we're going to do next.

We just live this week. Now we have to say, okay, we have to plan for this year. That's changed a lot, the way of working, the way of living. We pass less time for social gathering. Let's say before in Songzhang, we pass the whole night singing, dancing, and meet like 20, 30 people in one night. The people you don't know, different people.

different people they come from city centers you know they see Songchang as a very different place you know like non-commercial at all you know we are here we are free artists you know it's good to be with these artists but now you know people coming to Songchang also they come for meetings you know professional meetings or

or they work together like what we did. Maybe we work together in some projects. So this becomes different. So the mentality and the concrete way of living is changing. Are there any places in China that could be a bit like Song Zhuang 10 years ago? Or do you think it doesn't exist anymore? From what I've seen, I think Southeast Asia is still good. But China, I...

I don't know some places, you know, even around Beijing, some villages. We are now at the east part of Beijing, some villages.

in the mountains to the north and the west part of Beijing, I think the living cost is even lower. The question is that can we move there? We didn't try. I think that's the only reason we are still here. We didn't try. It's really great, Xiaodong, that you already mentioned that because I was actually going to talk about this. You are kind of wondering, should we move away from Songzhong? Is there a

pass for us what's interesting is that actually those kind of artistic communities at least in Beijing like they are actually always on the move each decade so according to the world of Chinese that story was written by Alex Colville like in the 1990s there was actually a huge artist community living in a place called Yuanmingyuan and as the town developed basically because you know the

Olympic Games and so on, and artists came also into the political radar. Basically, they had to move to Songzhuang in the eastern part of Beijing, where we are right now recording the podcast. There was also another community called Heiqiao from 2006 to 2017, and they also faced the same issue. So yeah, it feels like at this in Beijing, which is more political than any other cities, that's what people keep telling me, like, and

I think when I went to Dali, I can really sense that you have so many artistic events that I think would not be held in Beijing at some point. So yeah, it's interesting to see those artistic communities. They are kind of on the move, chasing the cheap rent and chasing being far away from the emperor. So Xiaodong, why have you not moved to Southeast Asia yet? Why not? He's scratching his head.

I think there's one thing I want to say about that because now we don't have Airbnb in China anymore. Before when I used Airbnb, I had more...

I have more desire, let's say, to move around. When I see a place that I don't know, like to some villages. Even Jingdezhen, if I have Airbnb, I should maybe find a good place to live there for some days, one week or two.

But since there's no Airbnb at all, now I don't have any research motor for these kind of places. I mean, I know that when you go on MateOne, which is this app where it's basically like a Taobao, but for local things like ordering food, renting bike, and looking for not sushi, like minsu. Are they the same? I'm not sure. I'm not sure they are the same, like local.

Feeling. Yeah, not feeling. I think the survey is not the same, you know, because we are trying to find some different stuff, you know, not the standardized stuff, you know, and through all the apps that you mentioned, I think this is kind of standardized lifestyle they propose.

So that's why when we can now find something different, we think everywhere is the same, if I move out or not. Yeah, that's made me travel less, I think. Still, I don't know, you tell me, Xiaodong, if it's just me tripping, but I sense you have found a nice little business model of...

Sure, you are mostly working, you want to make your name into more like international sphere. You have sent like one movie at Berlin Film Festival, which is one of the top five of the film festival in the world. And I do sense that, yeah, at least you managed to find a nice sweet spot of like a really low cost of living. But yet at the same time, like that allows you to make movie and then at some point you will be able to make a name for yourself.

Because I feel like if you are living in a city center or even in Kaobedi, you would have to suddenly take more advertisement projects, all those kind of things, and then you become more a classic film production company.

You must take on a lot of projects in order to just keep afloat, even though that might not be your passion. And the fact that you live in Songzhong at least allows you to focus on other things that are more important to you. We resist to the, let's say, the standardization. We resist a lot because filmmaking is like you find a unique way to tell about your conception of the world. We cannot. We don't know how.

how to standardize that thing. This is a problem. If it's like a real business model, we better do it to make everything the same, tell the same story, repeat and repeat again. So that's why we find this balance to live in a very low budget

live in a low budget way, not make film in low budget way and to still make films. So this is the balance we can find, you know, to ease our own, you know,

desire and to make a career out of it. Because me, when I came to Songchong the first time, like I was really impressed to see like so many nice little cafe and some fair. And then last time we went to a restaurant, like, you know, that was like a pretty neat, you can sense the whole population of, you know, creative designer and so on. Like they do really influence the way the town is like, because I've been doing a bit of a motorcycle, like all across Beijing suburbs and

and I've come across some towns. You've seen they're still all the same as the 80s. Okay, maybe you'd have more...

people are on their phone and the cars have changed but the buildings, the design of the buildings looks like they've been built like 30-40 years ago and when you're in Songzhong like that you it's kind of a really pocket which is really different. But I think it's like a weird mixture of contemporary way of life and like a very rural place. I always have this feeling of a little bit weird living in Songzhong you know where we are now you know we are at some developed place or we are still at like a very poor village

I'm not sure, but Ryan maybe can tell more about that. Is Jingdezhen kind of also like that or Jingdezhen is kind of traditional and people live in a more traditional way?

Well, I think that that's a good point to make, that Jingdezhen, it's not a brand new community. It's an old community with inhabitants that have been here for centuries, and their way of living hasn't changed so much. There's so many local restaurants that were thriving when I came here 10 years ago that are still thriving. And then on top of that,

is another layer where, you know, new coffee shops and maybe foreign cuisines are kind of coming in on top of that, providing another option for like an international community, but also, you know, the Jing Piao community where now there's more nightlife. When I first came here, the best, this is an example, the best cup of coffee was McDonald's.

And McDonald's was the only real foreign restaurant in the city. And since then, now there's coffee shop in every corner. That kind of like parallels the growth of the tourist market that has come in here. Okay.

Yeah, because Ryan, that was actually on the future, on the next question, like, yeah, what about all the tourists? Because it seems like you have a lot of influx. And when I went to Jingdezhen last time, I was really interested. Maybe it was not prepared well enough. But when I went, I went to the Museum of the Porcelain, which is a really interesting piece of art. But then later on, when I, maybe I didn't do enough of my homework. Back then, we didn't have sierre ronchou. We didn't have red, you know, telling you where to go, all the cool places. But yeah, when I went to Jingdezhen, like, what, six years ago? Yeah.

I never thought that would be a thriving place for the artist community. And it's only recently I've known about that. It seems like people would come to Jingdezhen, but not just for the porcelain museum, but for more than that. Yeah, there's little pockets in Jingdezhen. There's different neighborhoods. And within those neighborhoods are surrounding artist studios. And those, I guess, are accessible through Redbook.

you know, contacting the artist directly or just, or if you're in one of those centers like Tao Chi Chuan or the Sculpture Factory or out in San Bao Valley, you can just, as a tourist, you could just walk around and then, you know, follow your intuition and find an artist studio that you can engage in conversation or connect with their work in such a way that's serendipitous.

Or you can plan out your route by saying, I want to go see this person, this person, this person because of their social media presence. And gene-digit is kind of fascinating in that way because you can hit one community one day, one neighborhood one day, another neighborhood another day. And each one has a different flavor. And that flavor has something to do, it's with the new and the old kind of mixing.

And that's what's interesting to me is that that old is always there. And then there's a sort of layer of new on top of it. And in some communities, there's more of the new over the old. And in the other communities, more of the old over the new. It kind of like caters to whatever your taste is.

Yeah, so let's pretend I want to go to Jingdezhen and you are Ryan, you're going to be my tourist guide. Yeah, what's the tourist experience now as I go to Jingdezhen? What are my options? First, I mean, all the trains and everything leads to the heart, which is Taochishuan, where I'm located, the old factory that's then turned into this sort of ceramic Disneyland. There's all the best hotels right around here. And then there's the best new restaurants. This is the layer that is new.

is in this area. And then there's night markets every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And then we have specialty markets that happen once every three months. And that's where artists are bringing out their goods in literally hundreds of stands of artists bringing their ceramics to the market, which is the small market, which is kind of a tourist market.

sorry to stop you again when you mean night market we're not talking about like food market okay maybe some people are selling food but it's more like ceramic art and trinkets yes it's 90 95 ceramics and then there's there's other goods and then there's on the outskirts there's some food but the

it's just ceramic cups like teacups and teapots and then and I've seen there's traditional ceramics and there's contemporary ceramics and when I first came here this is a traditional ceramic city it's been that way for eons and now there's this new sort of

avant-garde contemporary ceramic movement that's happening. So young artists that are moving to Jingdezhen are looking at the old traditional ceramics with not the same way, that they want something new and they're being more creative. And so they're selling their works alongside a traditional teacup that's like an avant-garde sculpture. And what I'd like to

talk about is these young artists that are coming here, this is a good place as a base to establish your art, your communication with your medium, and then to get into a market, like learning how to sell and how to develop an audience. And you can do that relatively inexpensively because of the economy, how cheap things are, rent and all that. And then as you become more established, you've already set your roots in the community and you don't wanna move because you have...

You have a love for it. You've seen it grow and you're growing with it. The second is Sculpture Factory. And that is an old avenue, an old street. And this is more old over new. It's the old businesses, the old storefronts, and the old workshops of craftsmen and artists that have been there for a very long time. And it's a little bit more chaotic.

and very, very packed with tourists. So right now it's really geared towards the tourist market. So a lot of small products in mass quantity, tea shops and

coffee shops and small little restaurants. And the third one? And the third one is, it was kind of a suburb of Jingdezhen. It's just over the river. It's Sanbao Valley. And Sanbao Valley, when I first moved here, wasn't paved. It was a dirt road. And now it's all paved. It goes far into the mountains. So if you want a romantic experience,

of like the potter's life from the traditional perspective where you're in the woods or you're in the mountains and you had the hammer mills hitting the clay stone into powder and the wood kilns. That's where you want to go. And it's more of a upper level sort of experience. So it's the higher end Airbnbs. And there's a few projects out there too that are government funded that have their own sort of artistic experience.

or artist community, much like Tao Chi Chuan. And then, of course, there's the museums, you know, the Imperial Kiln Park and then the museum you went to as well. Yeah, and if any of the listeners want to know more regarding like Jingdezhen, of course, there is this article written by Tina Xu for the World of Chinese magazine, bringing the porcelain capital of the world into the 21st century. I will put a link in the podcast description. So yeah, Ryan, you already talked about that. So I'm kind of wondering like how people

How is the government, the local government, Jingdezhen, impact onto this tourism economy? Like from our conversation and from what I can imagine, basically, and as the economy is not getting better, I can sense like there is a huge push for the local, you know, the local Lingdao to get their KPI up in the sky. How, what's like the strategy of the local government, if you can talk about that, like the way they want to bring tourism

tourism and you know fire up all those you know sweet dollar of tourism coming and buy trinkets and so on. I see it in the number of people here every weekend. Right outside my door there's literally crowds of people on the weekend.

And I say weekend because that's the domestic tourist market. However, during these summer months, every day it seems to get more and more people. So slowly people are traveling more and more during the weekdays. And I think those tourist dollars are set for the small studios where people come to Ginger's and they want a souvenir tea set.

or a souvenir vase. And that's an introduction to ceramics. And then maybe they come back later and they become a little bit more refined in their taste and they get something a little higher in level where they seek out a particular artist because they saw them on Redbook or their friends knew them or whatever it is. And that's where I hope that the tourist economy gradually gets a little more refined where it can support more of a

an art economy like a contemporary ceramic art economy where the traditional is the way in but then you you get into that sort of dialogue with porcelain in your collecting or your knowledge of it and then you seek out new new items and also what i found interesting during our conversation ryan you told me that that kind of the ladder of success let's say for artists living in jingdo gen is that you start at the bottom of the ladder well not the bottom but

you know, my point, like you start and you do those small trinkets and then slowly you move up the ladder of success by, you know, doing more elaborated piece. And then at some point people ask you to, they commission you like you, Ryan, like people come and they commission you to do things. And that's kind of the way to, you know,

expand your craft, but it starts with selling basic trinkets to tourists. Yeah, and that coincides with your level of expertise with the material. You start with making an object that is easy to make and mass-produced to a certain extent to where you can pay your rent.

And then as you hone your dialogue with the material and you become more and more fluent with it, then you can make more and more elaborate pieces. And then at some point you might get sick of tradition and utility and want to like push the ideas beyond that. And then you're creating your own market. You're not tapped into an existing market, but you're creating a new flavor for your audience. And maybe your audience isn't the tourist audience. Maybe it's a different audience.

Yeah, I think Jingdezhen is that where you can evolve your markets to the level of dialogue you have with your material. And as your audience, as Ryan was talking, I was just Googling, I was just a Baidu, like how many numbers regarding tourists going to Jingdezhen. And according to the Jingdezhen local government PR,

Boomen, like the department, like they said that during the, we like during the first of May weekend, which is like three days, they had like a standby one. So what, like 3 million? It was insane that weekend. Yeah. 3 million people came to visit the town. Every hotel room was booked. And, and as a result, those hotel prices were like tripled. Those numbers, I think we'll get, we'll continue to increase, but

And so it's kind of, it's exciting for the city to shift from what was a porcelain manufacturing city to a tourist city because, I mean, porcelain is the lifeblood of China. It's one of the first cultures that exported to the modern world. In fact, it's the first...

exported product that was influenced by a foreign market that ever existed and set up commercial trade as we know of it today where products are made for a market outside of where it's made, where it's produced. And that's very vital to China but also vital to the history of the world. And so that in paired with the tourist market, it delights me to see that people are sharing an interest in something that I have

a very intimate relationship with. How does the local government, like, I'm sure, like, they're pushing for getting those, you know, three million tourists coming over for a weekend. Like, what's the way they do it? Like, do they open new factories for all those, you know, artists to come and create trinkets? Do they build a hotel? Like, yeah, I'm just wondering, like, what's, like, the strategy? What...

from what you can see, like what's like the strategy to transform this, yeah, kind of backwater, maybe not backwater town, but not like the most town in the map for tourism back then into something more like a, yeah, like a primed destination. Like what can, what's like the strategy for that the government is trying to put into place?

from your knowledge? Yeah, I wish I was privy to that information. I can only speak from what I know, and that's the programming here at Tao Chi Chuan. They really built a lot of new apartments here, and as a result of that, in speculating the value of land that could happen with the development of the city,

And as a result, that has kept rent low. And as a side product of that, it's attracted artists to keep coming here. And as more artists come here, each artist then sets...

is also a guiding point for other artists. I mean, Xiao Dong, when you went to your city, were you the first film producer there? And then the other 90 came? Were you one of the pioneers in that city for the artistic community? I think in China, not like everywhere else in the world, art, actually the form of art, has to be related to something, either tourism or government programs.

propaganda things or it's like for the more job opportunities all those things you know that the art has to be related to um

some kind of propaganda or business. Or agenda. Or, yeah. Or charity, let's say. If there's a campaign for charities, art has to be related to charities. So I think art cannot remain as a form of self-expression and independent voices. You know, this is not...

encouraged, let's say I use this word, sometimes it's even forbidden, you know, it's not encouraged in a way. So this is the main problem. So why we saw this art as a phenomenon, not in the art circle, but always outside of the art circle. So we are, as artists in the

Living here, we see art in a decreasing period. Either in Chinese traditional art or contemporary art, we always have this feeling. So this means they will for sure more and more into business. So the development of Songzhuang is so... Even like Songzhuang, there's a place not really for tourists.

but they are also really trying to relate the new construction with kind of tourism. Like from your understanding, are there like some kind of plan by the local tourism bureau and anything like we want to develop that area or do they leave you guys alone? Like

But apparently, what you're saying, they already want to try to push maybe Songzhwang to be a little bit of an artistic destination? Art business, all the infrastructure which is ongoing is for art business. Either it's like companies or artist studios. They have to be more and more into kind of business. Us, we are the second generation or third generation of Songzhwang. The first generation was from Yuanmingyuan.

they are truly independent artists. They don't sign any galleries, you know, and they are still there. You know, they are the first established artists. They are still living in Songzhuang. The second generation is after the Olympic Games, you know, more and more young artists of that period, of that moment, they came, settled down in Songzhuang. I came in 2016.

So that's considered maybe as a third generation. We already have had to have a business model, even though it's a small scale business. Now the younger artists came here. They still need to find a stronger business model to survive their life, to make their work more profitable, you know, to sustain, you know, something.

Do you think the local government, they would try to support the community or there's just like, well, it's a tough world, everyone for themselves, good luck trying to be a Saint-Amonc, like good luck to be an artist for you guys, but do you sense like there are like some local support for things or? Yeah, the government support successful artists, you know, more successful you are, the government support you more, you know, give funding support, you know, like art space, you know, for artists

easier way to expose their works, you know, to make that public, to make that commercial, you know, more profitable, like we said. And the less you are successful, you have less opportunities. This is the strangest thing of what we are experiencing, you know. Sounds like winner takes it all. Yeah. Yeah, I heard that also, you know, if one of your movie goes abroad and is selected at film festival and then you would unlock some subsidies for it, but...

Which is kind of silly because if you've already been able to make your film and send it abroad and be selected, then why do you need more support? But yeah, I guess that's maybe the way people put their KPI. Last question. I'm wondering, how do you guys see the upcoming years? Will you stay in the place where you are right now or you're kind of already thinking of maybe potentially moving away and to find another spot?

Ryan, if you could start. I've always said that I'd like to stay where I'm at because I was here since the beginning and I feel like my roots have penetrated the soil long enough. I might change my studio from a working space into a gallery space just because the market has changed where now there's a lot of people outside my front door and I'm closed to the public. So it doesn't really make sense.

Also, it would be nice to move out into that sort of romantic countryside area where I can work more free without distraction. And that potential still exists in Jingdezhen to where I could do that. And I'm looking forward to how Jingdezhen evolves and then how I evolve with it. I think that there's a lot of freedom to change and to start up here and to live here relatively inexpensively.

especially compared to what I'm hearing from Xiao Dong. I think it's very, very inexpensive to live here. And there's young artists who don't get government subsidies who rent an apartment and then they have a studio in one of the rooms of their apartment and then they make their small items and sell them at the night market. And that's actually enough to live off of.

It's not a good living, but it's a free, independent, self-sustaining living. And you're only going to get better and better as you hone your skill. And if you're passionate about it, then the sky's the limit with your potential in your market. I'm always trying to find somewhere else because we feel unsecured. We feel a lot of agitation, you know,

even among our communities. I'm trying to find somewhere, you know, we can create something altogether from zero maybe. But if let's say we can have 10 years or 20 years, whether we have that time, we are not sure because I think in China it changed too fast. You know, like every five years is already an era of time. So how we can move to somewhere else and, you know, create our own space and environment

you know, our living environment. I think it's still very, very difficult. So I'd rather to say that we stay here in Songchang and but keep an eye open. Like earlier this year, we went to Cambodia for two weeks because someone told me, you should come to Cambodia to see what happened here. You know, it's like everything's new, you know, and a lot of Chinese already there. You know, it's like a mixture of China and Southeast Asia, you know.

So, yeah, I went there, you know, I just tried to find something and to figure out how we can maybe one day, you know, move there. I don't really know for now. All right. Well, thank you guys for sharing all of this. Yeah, I do personally think it's interesting to see that each town and each community have different experience. I have a friend of mine, like...

he lives like in a remote village well remote village he lives in a small village uh in uh Changping in uh in Beijing it's also another kind of small community with a lot of artists living there but yeah every time they wanted to have a opening a studio then suddenly it's like uh the building was destroyed for some remote planning like and I think we shouldn't see any like um

let's say like censorship into that but it was also a question of oh this area should be reserved for this and then people like local government they don't I don't think they're just like educated enough in the way of doing things and art especially so so finally after the third uptent like right now they have a proper studio and they're starting to do projects um

But yeah, things are definitely complicated. But again, I guess like if we decide to work in art, that's definitely harder than, you know, being a crypto pro or something. Well, thank you again, the two of you for sharing all of your experience. And now we're going to end the conversation with my favorite part of the show, the quiz, where we'll see who is the most knowledgeable among our guests. So yeah, I will ask you to not look at my computer screen as I'm going to ask you the questions.

So the rules are simple. I will ask you guys a few questions. If you know the answer, you first buzz in with your name. Each correct answer will give you a point and the person with the most points obviously wins the quiz. And the winner of the quiz will receive the latest issue of the World of Chinese. And those questions are based on my research and knowledge. So hopefully you guys will agree with my with the official answer. Question one. Let's go back to history a little bit.

Could you guys tell me, according to my source, what is the remote location in China that for centuries has been a place to go for painters and poets?

Painters and poets. Because this place has like clouds 200 days of the year. And it's like a remote location that people love to go to make paintings and make poems and stuff like that. No, it is not the lake of Hangzhou. Ryan, do you have another spot in mind? I don't have a spot in mind. Is it the Seven Rivers Gorge? No, it's...

Yeah, no, it's not the Three Dam Gorge. Okay, and okay, to give you another tip, it is not related to water. It isn't water. Okay, I'm thinking of... I don't know. I'm ready to learn from you. Okay, this is... Next one. Guys, seriously? Okay, people have been telling me that my quiz is too hard, but another tip. It has the level of being a national park where there is even like a Gautier train station there now. Xiaodong? Yes. Wuyishan? No, it's not this one.

I can't come up with it. It's Huangshan. Oh, Huangshan Mountain? Yeah. Oh, that's terrible that I don't know that. That's an hour and a half away from here. I've been there. Okay, so Yellow Mountain, sure. I didn't know that. Okay, so no point for now. Question number two. Can you tell me which famous world artist who lived in South Changdi, which is Beijing suburbs, which is also an artist community...

Can you tell me what was this world famous artist who lived in Sao Chang-Di? Ryan? Yes? Are you just Ai Weiwei? Yes, indeed. It is Ai Weiwei who now lives in Berlin. Alright, question number three. Now we're gonna play Guess the Number. According to Dali local government in September 2023, so as I said in the introduction, they saw an influx of 100,000 new residents.

I think because, yeah, after COVID, like so many people went there to, you know, tongue-picking and whatever. But according, they are, the government did like an official statistics of out of those 100,000 new residents. Can you tell me how many of them were considered as artists? So you pick a number. 10,000. Okay, so Ryan sent 10,000. Xiaodong, how much do you think? 30,000. Okay. Okay, the answer is 20,000.

So both of you are like way too close, so no one gets the point. Okay, we're gonna... Okay, this is good because now we have a backup question. Okay, so question four. I guess this is for you, Ryan. We play guess the number again for the backup question. According to the World of Chinese magazine, in the 18th century, Jingdezhen was, of course, a center of porcelain. There was 3,000 kiln. That's a kiln is a place where you produce the porcelain. Can you guess back then how many people were working in this industry?

There's 3,000 kilns. I would say 50,000. 100,000. Okay. Damn it. Okay. So officially the answer is 1 million people. That is what's written in the research of the World of Chinese magazine. I don't know. I guess maybe they were attaching like all the people and their families and so on. And from other communities serving this community because a million people in Jingdezhen in the 18th century? Yeah. Wow. Okay. News to me.

Yeah, okay. Well, I will send you the guys the link to the article. Well, it is a draw, but I think that was a good fight. Interesting one. So both of you shall get your copy of the World of Chinese magazine. We'll send you a copy over there. Otherwise, yeah, that wouldn't be fair. On that note, we'll wrap up the show. So thank you guys again for coming and sharing all your knowledge. Glad to have you, dear listener, until the end. I know that you like the show. And if you do, you can help us to grow by recommending us to your friends. That's like the best way for us to keep more people listening to the show.

To keep expanding on the topic, don't hesitate to check out the two articles of The World of Chinese that was mentioned. And also years ago, there was one episode about China urban design, which is episode 20. All of those have a link in the podcast description. Let me remind you that Middle Earth is part of TWOC, The World of Chinese Podcast Network.

If you want to know more behind the headlines, go to theworldofchinese.com and order your latest copy. Also, if you're impressed by this show guest and you need to find an interviewee for your next documentary piece or use a researcher in China, you should give us a call. Today's episode was produced and edited by Aladin Fahre. Production assistant, Le Jia Yin. Music by Sean Calvo. With a huge thanks to Ge Ling and Seyi for putting me in touch with today's guest. And we are distributed by the World of Chinese Podcast Network. Hope to see you next time. Bye-bye.

So a technical thing, Ryan, sometimes I can hear like some weird background. And I don't know if it's because you move object or... I think it's the construction. Okay. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. They are tearing down some concrete outside. Well, no, no Chinese podcast without like some proper construction noise in the background. It's authentic.

Looks like our listeners are still doing their dishes. We're really committed to their workout. For sure. Since we're still here, if you want to learn more about Chinese society, culture, and language, you should head to theworldofchinese.com and follow us on WeChat, TikTok, and Instagram, where you'll discover an impressive collection of award-winning in-depth stories and fun, informative videos, as well as amazing podcasts. Of course. Well, until the next issue then.