Al Fayed, Predator at Harrods: 6. The ripple effect
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Hi, I'm Raj Punjabi from HuffPost. And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost. And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right. Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

And we're talking like legit, credible experts, doctors, PhDs, all around superheroes. From HuffPost and Acast Studios, check out Am I Doing It Wrong? wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, it's Shaima Khalil. We always knew our investigation into Mohammed Al-Fayed was big. But in the weeks since we released it, we've been shocked by just how big an impact it's had.

As I record this, Harrods is telling us that it's in the process of settling over 250 claims from women who say they were abused by the former chairman. And there's lots more going on. So I want to bring you up to speed with everything that's happened since we published our first five episodes. And I want to introduce you to some of the people involved in the investigation. A warning before we begin. This episode contains some graphic details of sexual assault, which you may find distressing.

I was picked up at the train station in a chauffeured limousine. This is a woman we're calling Margot. It's 1985. She's 19 years old, rolling through leafy hills south of London. I remember being driven through the incredibly impressive entrance gate to Barrow Green Court. Barrow Green Court, Mohammed Al-Faid's inner sanctum, the family home. And the long driveway up to a massive red brick house.

Parts of it date back to the 1600s. It's listed with English heritage, which notes a fancy front door with an elegant decorative frame and pilasters, like Greek columns on either side. It's all very grand. The estate covers hundreds of acres, with formal gardens, woods, and countless outbuildings surrounded by high fences and thick hedges. To get here, Margot's been through an interview set up through an ad she saw in a magazine.

There was no mention of Al-Fayed or his family. At the interview, the lady was asking me, did I ever have a boyfriend? I said no. Margot says the interviewer looked relieved. She rang me the next day and said how Mr Al-Fayed had seen my photo and read my CV and that he would like to employ me. So here she is, reporting for her first day on the job, as nanny and governess to Al-Fayed's young children.

Whilst waiting to meet the children and their mother, I met a few of the staff. One later whispers, be careful, all the rooms have listening devices. I thought she just meant the baby monitors. This is World of Secrets, Season 4. Al-Fayed, Predator at Harrods from the BBC World Service. A story about power and control at the top of British society. Episode 6, The Ripple Effect.

The telephone rang at 6.30 the next morning. Margot's in her quarters, a small dimly lit room. There's a single bed, a desk and an internal phone. It was Al-Fayed himself telling me to go upstairs. She finds him in his silk dressing gown, pyjamas and slippers. The children aren't around. He brushed against me and stroked and held my arm as he passed. Weird, she thinks.

Maybe he's just trying to put me at ease because I'm new? On the next morning, Al-Fayed personally rang my room again. He asked me to go down to the swimming pool with him. The pool is in the basement. Margot notices the dolphin decor, the blue tiles, the golden highlights, and the fact that again, Al-Fayed is alone. No kids. I was asked to sit down. Then he sat down next to me, really close.

Margot's now getting increasingly uncomfortable. She wants out.

However, once you get in the house, you can't get out. To leave, you had to get down the drive and through the gates, which I understood would also have needed permission from Mr. Al-Fayed to be opened. She rings her mum and tells her what he's been doing. She encouraged me to stay as it was a really good job with good pay. Another morning comes.

This time, Al-Fayed doesn't ring. Before 5am, I was awoken by my bedroom door opening. Al-Fayed came in, shutting the door behind him. He was in his dressing gown. It was hanging open. He sat down on my bed, deliberately squashing me up against the wall. Then he got under the sheets with me. His hands were everywhere. The next detail is graphic. Margot says he raped her. Vaginally.

And anally. Then all of a sudden he got up, telling me to go upstairs where I was needed. He left the room just as if nothing had happened. Later that day, I was told to go to the garden sun area outside the rear entrance. Al-Fayed was there. Again, there was no sign of the children. I want to leave immediately, she tells him. She's already packed her bags. Why am I even here? She asks. You don't seem to need a nanny.

He wasn't at all happy about this and kept saying that my job description would become much clearer with time. Al-Fayed promises to buy her a lovely house nearby. He says he'll raise her salary too. He claimed it would let me have a wonderful life. Margot's firm. I don't want anything from you, she says. I just want to leave. He became angry and abrupt, waving his arms around. He asked me to stay for another 24 hours to give it a bit more time.

She's sent back to her room. The next day, she tries again. She goes to see him in his office. He got very angry again with me and stormed out. I was told to leave immediately afterwards by one of the office staff. He told me to say nothing about my time here or my life would become very difficult. I was so relieved just to get out of there.

The BBC's heard testimony from more than 20 women who say they were sexually assaulted by the former owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed.

In the month following the release of this podcast and the wider BBC investigation... Lawyers representing women who've come forward say that 37 of them are now making allegations of abuse. It's after five women... The response has been overwhelming. Police say they've recorded 40 new allegations relating to the former owner of Harrods, Mohamed Al-Fayed. Another 65 women have contacted the BBC with allegations against Mohamed Al-Fayed going back as far as the 1970s.

Margot is just one of the women who reached out to the BBC. Looking back, I believe I was recruited purely as a potential sex partner or plaything for Al-Fayed. Hence the questions at the interview to establish if I was a virgin. I certainly received a far larger amount of attention, all unwanted, from Al-Fayed than would have been appropriate in any other scenario.

I was repeatedly sexually assaulted, inappropriately touched and manhandled on many occasions. I was kept at Barrow Green Court against my will as a prisoner for several days and still feel that I was very lucky to escape. The BBC has deployed teams of journalists to follow leads on this major investigation.

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint Mobile, unlimited premium wireless. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes each detail. Hi, I'm Raj Punjabi from HuffPost. And I'm Noah Michelson, also from HuffPost. And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all-too-human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right. Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right.

And we're talking like legit, credible experts. Doctors, PhDs, all around superheroes. From HuffPost and Acast Studios, check out Am I Doing It Wrong? wherever you get your podcasts. I can hear you, Hannah. How are you? I'm good. I'm just trying to get my dog out of the room. It's not going very well. We're doing something different now. Yeah, he's not moving. Stepping out of storytelling mode and into a really important discussion. Video.

Yeah, one sec. Hannah Price is with BBC News Investigations and has been part of the wave of coverage in the last month following new leads. Erica Gornall directed the BBC film that was broadcast at the same time this podcast was released and has been on the story for 10 months. Erica filmed most of the interviews for the podcast and helped liaise with the women before the story broke.

She also played an important part around duty of care, given how sensitive the subject is. Hi all. Erica, how are you guys doing? Hello. Yeah, good. And Keaton Stone, an investigative journalist who's been on the story for six years. He's been a crucial consultant to us. We heard some of his backstory in the last episode. He was helping Sophia, his wife, update her CV.

When she saw that he'd put the fact that she worked for Al-Fayed right at the top of her CV, she broke down. Poor Keaton. I got really cross and I was just like, why, why have you done that? Why have you done that? And he didn't understand why I was getting so angry and I sort of stormed off. That really was a key moment in this story coming out. It is incredible to have the three of you together. Honestly, there's so much to talk to you about.

I really think we should cover why this investigation matters. It's no easy task, as all of you will know. It's complex. It's difficult. And I also want to know about some of the challenges that you faced. So let's dive into it. Sound good? Sounds good. Yeah, let's go for it. Yeah.

We keep saying how big and overwhelming the impact has been. And I can tell you from following Arabic media myself, it was huge news just plastered on social media, on mainstream media in Arabic. And I'm just wondering, and this is a question for all of you, did you expect the reaction to be as big as it's been? Erica?

Yeah, I mean, I think when we started researching this, along with Keaton and the rest of the team, we had a real sense that the people that we were talking to, and that was already an unprecedented number of people to have in a film, were really just the tip of the iceberg. And we suspected that, and we did kind of think maybe 100, and that's obviously an incredible amount of people.

But I think the amount of people coming forward really has been mind blowing. And it's great to see that there has been this moment that after years and decades, all these women have now felt able and galvanised to tell their story. Keaton, tell us about how all of this happened and how it developed. You came to the BBC with what?

I'd been looking into it since 2018 and I came to the BBC with it in 2023 and I bought documents, photographs, articles, etc. supporting evidence, but also things from previous law cases that he'd managed to get silenced. A lot of damning stuff, essentially. But also what was so important was that I'd found dozens of women from around the globe who admitted

had all amazingly given me their testimony, their statements. I felt because of what had happened before and him being able to stop these things and that I really needed it to be that overwhelming. And then when it did get to the BBC, I mean, I remember the very initial talks, it started as it could be an online article. If it was bigger than that, it would be a 20 minute newsnight piece, bigger than that, a panorama. And it kind of kept growing. So it

soon got, you know, upgraded to a feature doc, 90 Minutes. And then, of course, we were able to supplement that also with this incredible podcast that supported it with five episodes, which again, gave so much more of the testimony. Hannah, you came on when the story came out. And I'm just wondering, watching this hit the headlines the way you did, what was your reaction? I've worked on lots of sensitive stories like this. And I

don't remember ever seeing a reaction like this and this many people come forward. Like just to the BBC, we had a further 65 women contact us. It's unprecedented, really. And I think it just shows the scale of what was going on. But also lots of the women that I've been speaking to, they didn't tell anyone and they felt they were kind of alone in this.

And I think this story is incredible because it's made so many people feel that they can come forward and they can share things that they've not shared in over 20 years. Keaton, and of course, Erica, you've been in this story for such a long time, just the day in and day out detail of it. And I'm just wondering, Keaton, in this past month, what's been the key moment for you, the key image since the story came out? That's a good question. I

I can answer that a bit if that helps. Go for it, yeah. For me, two really key images. That press conference regarding allegations against Muharrem Al-Faed is due to begin. The first one for me was just the amount of people in that press conference the day after the film came out. Well, good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for coming today. And it really landed with me just how much interest there was in this story. We'll be introduced shortly to the most important people in the room.

I mean, one of the challenges that I did think might happen, despite the amount of women who'd been affected, was the fact that he's died. What can we do? And the answer is, a lot. That has become the story. How did he manage to die with so many people, and we're talking hundreds now, having been affected by his behaviour for decades? And that day, that image of Natasha being there, speaking her story in full for the first time...

Today, I finally have the opportunity and freedom to speak up. I no longer feel afraid, so I speak for my daughters, my nieces, for my good friend Catherine, and all the survivors of sexual abuse in this room today.

And with the barristers and at least 100 press, if not more, interested in the story, I think was really key. And I think that's the moment the penny dropped, that this is something that has really impacted a huge amount of people and really just shows quite the man that Fyod was. You said that you are no longer afraid. Could you tell us how you got to that point? Yeah, we all stand together. And if you can stand together as a woman, you have the strength to do it.

to not be afraid anymore. The second image, which I think was really key for me, was those women sitting down on BBC Breakfast. Good morning. This is Breakfast, today with Sally Nugent and John Kay. We are joined here on Breakfast right now by Jen, Nicole, Lindsay, Gemma,

And Catherine. Which was amazing. I think that's the first time we saw a number of women face to camera together, which for me was amazing because we filmed most people separately. And that kind of camaraderie of those women coming together was brilliant. All of us had the same experiences. And being all together, I think it's quite good to think, oh, God, I thought for ages this was just me. Yeah.

And in particular was Jen, who was sat there, who was actually one of our anonymous ladies. She was a really, really key contributor. Her testimony was absolutely vital. And in the podcast and in the documentary, she's known as Alice. And there she was being able to tell her story with her face on camera. Why is it so important for you to speak this morning?

Well, I think first and foremost, it's part of the healing process. I have lived with this as a secret that I've been deeply ashamed of for 35 years. I hadn't told a soul. So it really showed the journeys for these women really have continued all the way up to the present day. And that's the case for many women who've come forward since. You know, this is just the beginning of the story. Yeah. I can hear you agreeing. Yeah.

I guess another moment for me was one of the headlines that I saw in one of the newspapers and it was, you know, front page thing on one of them. And it said something like Saville, Epstein, Weinstein combined, you know, and that's another moment where I thought, right, OK, they get this now.

And Hannah, you reported Margot's story, which we've heard here. She was one of the women who approached the BBC in recent weeks. Tell us about the process of how the women are now getting in touch, how you and other BBC journalists are handling this information.

So in all of the amazing articles and content that went out around the documentary, we embedded get in touch forms so that other people affected could reach out. And I don't think we realized how many people would get in touch. So we have been trying to speak to as many people as possible that have reached out to us.

Obviously, those conversations are incredibly difficult. People have been through so much and they're in some cases sharing it for the first time. So what we really wanted to do is make sure that them contacting the BBC out of the blue that it was going towards something. So what we're trying to do is go through all of their testimonies,

and work out whether there's anything new we can report because the scale of what was going on, I think the more that we can expose and learn from that, the more likely it's something like this doesn't happen again. Erica, you've had such close contact with the women. How do you balance the duty of care to the women who are revealing incredibly personal and difficult details, going back to places sometimes that they've suppressed for years?

but also the need as a journalist to confirm these stories.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I think duty of care in this film has been really the spine of it. And you can imagine with over 20 women talking to us and then, you know, filming in some way or recording in some way 14 of them, it was a huge endeavour. And of course, all those women are completely different and are at different stages of being able to talk about it and processing it. So, yeah, me and Cassie together had to build a plan around all of those women

women. And it's been really tricky. I mean, let's be honest about this. It's not been easy. And I think that, you know, it has been a hugely positive experience for most of those women in the podcast and the film because of the impact that it's had.

And that ultimately they did want to rewrite history as to who fired was. But we are talking about rape victims are talking about sexual assault victims who have had to uncover and talk about these stories. And so, yes, we've done a lot around duty of care after they did their interviews and when they were going through the sections of the film. And of course, during the transmission process.

And I know that many of those women feel supported in that. But it's really, really tricky. It's a very, very difficult subject matter. And I think that's why going forward, and I know Hannah will say the same, you know, when we're looking at telling women's stories now, it has to be for a real purpose, whether bringing the story forward in terms of new locations or because they were abused before or after, you know, we were aware of. You know, there has to be a real purpose in that.

And so, you know, we're really mindful of that when we're talking to those women. And I suppose in terms of corroboration, the sheer number that you had, and at that point, even with the 20 women that you spoke to, that was a big number before we had more women coming forward to the BBC, to the police, to Harrods, to lawyers, even that was a big number. And was it the fact of

cross-checking or looking at the stories and seeing a pattern there? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, when I came on board in the new year and, you know, I was a huge privileged advantage that Keaton had spoken to, you know, nearly all of the women in the podcast and the film. And I'd got a good idea from those background notes, their story and, you know, what popped out immediately was

was firstly the scale, but also, as you say, the pattern and the similarities between their stories. And remember, these are women that say they've been abused over a 35-year period, most of whom don't know each other, and were just telling their stories in isolation. And on those pieces of paper and in Keaton's dossier, I could just see the way in which...

or fired behaved, the way in which he was saying things like, call me papa, the way in which he kind of encouraged them to be in Harrods or in Park Lane, and the way in which he attacked those women were similar. So I think we were in a privileged position that we had so many women giving testimony that we were able to cross-cooperate at a very early stage.

And in terms of accountability, Keaton, what do you hope this next phase of the reporting will accomplish? As we've said, the podcast and the documentary primarily focused on Harrods. There was also elements of the Ritz in there, but the abuse sadly stretches to everywhere that he went. We are talking Park Lane, we're talking his own home in Oxted, Surrey, with

You know, the news has broke about Fulham Football Club and the direct links there in Saint-Tropez as well and Balmagown. So it is everywhere. So I do want next steps. I mean, as well as these women feeling heard and listened to, but also accountability, accountability.

to me very much focuses on the enablers and facilitators who helped him get away with what he did and covered up for him. Those people are still alive and they are culpable and they need to be held to account. Erica?

The other thing for me that has been really important is the role of the police in this. It astounds me that 21 people came forward before this documentary came out and nothing was done. Now, I'm sure they're now looking into that as a matter of urgency and looking at the evidence. And maybe for them it didn't reach the threshold. I don't know. That's the question for them to answer. But...

For me, if any individual that I knew had 21 people allege something against them, I feel there must be some process in place for that to be investigated. It feels like they've dealt with each allegation separately.

But in the round, bringing everything together might warrant further investigation. So those are things that I don't know. These are questions that are being sparked by the documentary and from the podcast. Those are answers that I would love to hear that go beyond this story, but I think would also help the many, many women who I think have questions for the police in this. I mean, it's fascinating. And I guess in a way,

That's the importance of keeping that story going. I want to thank the three of you so very much. Thank you for sharing your experience and for sharing what it's been like for you. I'm really grateful and I'm really, really happy that we had this time with you. If you've been affected by this story and want to talk to a BBC journalist in confidence, let us know. The email address is haveyoursayatbbc.co.uk.

The WhatsApp text number is plus44-77-5616-5803. There is also a confidential form on the BBC News website. Search for BBC Have Your Say. Hello, I'm Sumi Somosganda from the Global Story podcast, where we're looking at America and immigration.

Illegal immigration has made the southern border a lightning rod for fiery political debate. How is that shaping the upcoming election? And how might the outcome impact America's neighbors to the south? The Global Story brings you unique perspectives from BBC journalists around the world. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.