UK forces could be sent to Ukraine
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Today with me, James Hansen and Alex Dibble. Ever since Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Ukraine's allies in the West have been providing support. It's taken a range of forms, weaponry like tanks, jets and missiles, humanitarian aid, financial aid and training for Ukrainian troops.

But one thing has remained off the table throughout. Western boots on the ground. But could that be about to change? The UK Defence Secretary has told The Times the British forces could be deployed to Ukraine.

Now, let's be clear about what John Healy is talking about here. He's not suggesting the British troops will fight on the front line. Instead, he's talking about training Ukrainian forces in Ukraine itself as opposed to back in the UK, as has happened in recent years. Our guest today is The Times' defence editor, Larissa Brown, who did the interview with John Healy and is with him at the moment. Larissa, tell us a bit more about what the defence secretary said to you.

Well, we've just come back from Ukraine where we travelled on the train to Kyiv and now we're in Estonia, actually just about 75 miles away from the Russian border. And whilst we were in Kyiv, John Healy spoke about a lot of different things concerning Russia, but

Primarily, we focused on his comments on the idea that British troops could be sent to Ukraine to train the Ukrainians. Now, as you know, at the moment, we've got the Ukrainians coming to the UK for that training. But Healey left the door open for that training to happen inside Ukraine instead. Larissa, what would be the advantage of training Ukrainian troops on the ground in Ukraine as opposed to back in the UK, which has been happening until now?

Well, from the Ukrainian perspective, it would just be logistically much more easier to be able to obviously take the Ukrainian forces away from the front line, all those that have been newly recruited, and send them a few hundred miles away to be trained rather than having to fly them all the way to the UK. That takes a lot of time. It also is just logistically difficult. And actually, as the war goes on and they're recruiting people,

conscripts, it also probably raises some questions as to how sort of secure all of that will be. Will some of the Ukrainians coming to the UK actually want to go back? So I think it's raised lots of issues and so it'd just be

more efficient to be able to do it inside Ukraine. But obviously, there's been a lot of nervousness inside the UK government about doing that. Because of course, if you've got a large UK footprint in the country, there are concerns that Russia could then see them as a target. Now, obviously, this isn't a case of British troops fighting on the front line, but will this still be seen by the Russians as an escalation?

I think it undoubtedly will be. I think we'll probably, you know, obviously hear a lot from the Kremlin over the next few days about it. You know, from their perspective, they will say that British troops are on the ground, they're there in a sort of combat role, even though they won't be. And the UK will obviously be pushing back, saying that this is just training those forces. But I think it will escalate things. And that's obviously why people have been worried so far. But equally, you know,

Some military chiefs have been pushing this for a long, long time, British military chiefs, because they believe it will give the Ukrainians greater security and that Putin wouldn't actually dare target those British troops because he knows that if he killed any British troops, then he'd be taking us on a path to a third world war. And it's not just training, is it, that John Healy has been talking about? The defence secretary has been talking about his five-point plan, including more weapons and financial support for Ukraine.

Yeah, so he met his Ukrainian counterpart yesterday in the capital and he delivered this five-point plan that the British have come up with, which part of that is about the training and making it more...

adaptable and easier for the Ukrainians to carry out. Another part is giving more money. Another part is basically giving more lethal weapons and different weapons than they've given previously. We've not got all of those details yet, but that'll be interesting when we hear more about exactly what they want to give them. Some of it might be some air defence type equipment and also just helping Ukraine

both in terms of putting more sanctions on the Russians, but also obviously providing Ukraine more finance in other means. What's the significance of the timing of what John Healy has been saying to you? Why is he making these comments now, do you think? I think Healy is concerned that obviously we're coming up to some of the toughest months that the Ukrainians are going to face because the winter is getting extremely cold.

and also Donald Trump's coming in January and I think Healy wanted to travel to Ukraine just before Christmas to show the Ukrainians that the British support is still there, it's unwavering, it's going to continue and that basically even if Trump does come in, the UK is not going to pull out. Well, obviously Trump is going to come in but even if Trump then has this peace deal that the Ukrainians don't seem to be

particularly keen on, at least the British government is still going to be supporting Ukraine in every way it can possibly. But Larissa, I mean, a lot of people may say, well, isn't this just too little too late, especially given Trump's previous comments about peace talks?

Is it the Defence Secretary's view that the UK will be with Ukraine come what may, even if US support falters? Exactly. Although actually I spoke to one defence source who was telling me that because the Ukrainians are obviously anticipating Trump coming in, they actually

actually are starting to lose the will to fight on the battlefield because nobody wants to lose their lives just a few weeks away from a peace deal. And so actually, it's really changing the dynamic on the front line at the moment. And at the same time, Putin is actually really trying to push through, make some ground. So he's got the strongest hand possible when those talks begin. And what's John Healy's view about Donald Trump's plan for peace talks?

John Healy's sort of clearly very sceptical about it. I think he seems to think that the Ukrainians need to be in a much stronger position before any peace talks begin. And I get the sense that he probably also thinks Putin can't really trust it. And that's something that's a view been shared by a lot of other people in the British circles, especially in the defence industry. So I think that basically the British government is thinking that 24 hours is not a realistic prospect.

and that's just going to take much longer and therefore the Europeans and the US really need to be in this for the long haul. The UK is obviously just one of several key allies of Ukraine. Are there any other European nations, Larissa, making similar pledges at the moment, especially when it comes to things like training and military aid? Eastern European countries are also trying to step up their support and help.

Obviously, France and Germany are in quite a lot of political turmoil at the moment. And so I think there's some concern that the UK needs to take up a leading role in all of this at the moment. And that's one thing that Healy was stressing, is that Britain does want to take a leading role when it comes to Ukraine.

The UK government has come under some criticism in recent weeks from actually Ukrainians who are saying that actually they're not taking on that leading role in the same way that the Tory government did. And that's probably concerned some of those in the Labour government and they're keen to push out this line that we're doing as much as we possibly can.

And just finally, Larissa, you mentioned that you've travelled with the Defence Secretary to Estonia now. What's he doing there? He's meeting troops here at Tapa Military Base and he's going to be giving them Christmas dinner. So it's a bit more festive here than it was in the meetings that we were doing in Kyiv.

Larissa, thank you very much. That is The Times' defence editor, Larissa Brown, in Estonia. Well, while Larissa's been hearing from the British and the Ukrainians, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has also been speaking. He's been holding his annual end-of-year press conference, a marathon event shown on all state-run TV channels. He's claimed that victory is nearer in Ukraine. Let's just have a listen to the translation. I must say that the situation is changing rapidly.

drastically. You all know that. I just want to confirm that once again. Frontline is moving every day, and we're not talking about 100- and 200-meter advancements. Our fighters reclaim territories by square kilometers. And I mean they do it every day.

Well, James Nixey is the director of the Russia and Eurasia programme at the think tank Chatham House and has been following the speech. He told Times Radio that these annual addresses are another key example of Kremlin propaganda. They are very carefully choreographed and...

And they are designed to either intimidate the West or to pump up the Russian populace, who obviously need it because the war is not popular in Russia. It depends. I mean, that is not to say that the Russians themselves do not have an imperial mindset. They do. They do believe that Crimea is rightfully theirs and the Ukrainian should exist within their sphere of influence. But at the same time, they don't want to send their brothers, sons away.

and even fathers are off to die, as they are doing in almost industrial quantities these days. The Russians are losing men at a very great rate of knots. They can maintain that rate for the time being, it has to be said, and life is obviously cheap, both in Russia generally and to Vladimir Putin. But

the truth is that the war is going badly for both sides. Of course, his audience is not just inside Russia, it's external as well. And he's trying to put a good spin on it. And he's got something to say about that. But of course, a lot of it is not the whole story, if you like. So when it comes to the economy, he can talk about growth, and that is not untrue. The Russian economy has grown. But at the same time, this is just an example, inflation has risen to 9% and interest rates are 20%.

So he'll only give the good part of a story, not the whole story. That's James Nixey, director of the Russia and Eurasia programme at the think tank Chatham House. That's it from us. Thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. We'll see you tomorrow. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

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