To Get What You Want, Be Both Assertive and Warm
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You're listening to a women network from harvard business review, I amy gallow. Have you ever had one of those aha moments where you realized that the way ve been thinking about an important concept has been all wrong? I had one of those recently.

Thanks to alison for gale. SHE completely shifted my perspective on what IT takes for women to get power, more money, greater authority, the opportunity to influence decisions, alison study's organizational behaviour, how employees act and interact, which he teachers at the university of north CarOlina. SHE recently published a book called likeable bat us, how women get the success they deserve.

Here's the line from that book that changed my thinking. Women are not analyzed for the presence of assertiveness. They're analyzed for the absence of warmth. I had always believed that these two qualities, assertiveness and warmth, or in conflict, especially for women, it's what's known as the double bind.

The idea that you have to make a trade off, you can either be seen as competent by demonstrating your expertise, giving to a feedback or claiming your authority, or as likeable by validating other people's feelings, being personable and making others feel seen. But you couldn't be both at the same time, elson argues. That's not true.

In fact, these qualities aren't adults. We can and should combine them because that's how we build status by showing we're capable of getting along and getting things done. And once we have high status data, we gain power, the control over resources.

So Allison's advice is to start by building your status, by being curious and firm, agreeable and self confident, appreciative and ambitious in every interaction. Alison rights ask yourself, what can I do to show us both assertive and warm? Trust me, it's not as daunting as that sounds show, explain.

I some thanks so much for joining us on the show.

I am so happy to be here.

I can think of so many times in my career where I have made the choice. I'm going to be incredible, warm and likeable, and have downplayed my expertise or my authority or my power in a way to appear more warm.

And like about I I am thinking of this project I worked done when I was a management consulting in korea where given the especially the gender dynamics in korean workplaces, I was like the best thing for me to do is to be as warm and likeable as possible as non threatening IT really did not serve me. And in fact, I can remember a particular meeting in which I got talked over so many times that I had a frustration, I burst into tears and had to leave the room. And then I can also think of times i've occasionally been accused of being, I know at all where I have been so intent on proving my expertise that I have eliminated any element of warmth. And I think i've gotten Better, especially that I would say in the last like five, six years of combining the two. But there are so many times in which i've made the choice IT honestly, wasn't till ever read your book that I was like, oh, that's why that did not work at all yeah and I think that .

does start with awareness of, oh, status of the thing we all experienced IT. But IT has a name. Now I can start to recognize IT and the ones I recognize that I can then start to see these ways of, I didn't realize that was making a choice in this moment, or the choice mayor may not have been serving me. But now I can see IT and what IT comes to what people decide to do with their lives. I'm really aggressive about choices they make, but i'm a huge believer in conscious awareness of, if I can see IT and I can label IT, you could choose and if you said i'm going all in on the warming, likeable and i'm just letting the showing my capability go, that is for you to do but at least you're doing IT with an awareness rather than a faulty theory, that what I was doing was going to get me rewarded by my audience and then IT didn't happen. And now I feel confused as to what did I do wrong and also frustrated that i'm not getting rewarded because I was working really hard to get a good outcome from these people.

Yeah, it's interesting to hear you say you're agnostic about that choice because I am increasingly not meaning that for myself and that I find those moments where i'm able to strike the baLance and not even strike the baLance dial up the one that i'm weaker at at the moment when I die IT up to use your language from the book. I just feel so much more in the zone, and I feel like the response to me is so much.

But I just got back from taking some time off for the summer and I put a post on linked in yesterday, but basically admitted I didn't achieve anything I expected to the summer warmth. I'm not perfectly, but then also said, hey, I up for my newsletter. I'll tell you what I learned from IT.

I'm an expert, right? And IT was like, I had such a wonderful response to that and I could have easily left IT as I didn't chief anything look out likeable. I am relate to me, relate to me or I could have just been like, sign up for my news letter. I'm sure I would not have gotten many silence because I didn't have that combination. Oh, I absolutely.

I am one hundred percent with you. If you want my best advice, I would say any opportunity you should look for ways you can show up as very capable and very caring and authentic. absolutely. Yeah, there's a lot of ways, once you start to think about IT, that you realize that is a false straight off that I could with small tweak, that feel equally authentic to the thing I was already doing, maybe even more authentic because I felt I was holding some of my natural soft back. I can .

actually get both. Yeah, yeah. So the dying of the warmth, particularly in a negotiation, let's call IT a salary negotiation and promotion negotiation. How does that actually work? Like why does that help in the negotiation?

yeah. So a couple things. Warmth is, the dimension of warmth is not just a unlikable and my friendly, but do I care about people other than myself? And we respect that.

We don't want to deal people who are very self interested. And so conveying the warm of this person cares about me. I want to give things to you because I think you're going to give things back to me.

So it's trust building for one, liking is up there of the most important things that convince somebody to say yes, particularly when the things that they're saying yes to isn't particular good for them. So liking is a component of warm, and people do things for people they like. And I feel this myself all the time.

So anytime I find myself feeling a natural warm to somebody like really like him, when there was just a tiny interaction, I pause for a second. I think, what has happened there? They got me to really like them in this tiny moment.

And how can I bottle that and repeat that with other people? Or if I find myself turned off by somebody, what did they just do so that i'm not intentionally doing that? Because when you have those moments of, like all I really like you, you think about like what you would give.

I I just had this, my son went to a super camp and I had a right the cap director because and my son heard his back, I just said to see how he was doing. And the cap director, who had never met, wrote me back. He's five, but then he just went on a couple senses.

And I cannot tell you how much i've enjoyed meeting your son. What a leader he is among his, he is just such a star of this camp. We are so fortunate at whatever s in that moment.

I just thought if that can't director send an email the next day saying I can't need to funds, we write a check, I would have got out my chapbook and write a check for this camp and I didn't not like them before that yeah but I thought, um you had to took this moment a compliment even Better than me compliment kid, that's like even more important. And now think about how much I like you and if you wanted to ask me for something, I would be so much more inclined to give you more in this moment. Yeah.

well, and IT makes me think about your point, which is research based, right, that their certain veness is countered and warmth is mimic.

Yes, the idea is that when somebody is very dominant, is very, is very controlling. We studied our teens, and I, what is the natural human response? When someone is very dominant, a lot of behaviors in life are mimic. So if we sit across from each other face to face, and I cross my legs, you cross your legs, I lean and you, lin, there is a mimicry. And mimicry tends to build a fillies and warmth and bonding.

So we wondered, are we gonna get into dominance contests with people? Because we mimic domine if you're dominant and more dominant, and then we're both gonna to be you know out doing each other and we found, no, it's not what people do. They compliment IT.

So if i'm more sorted in an interaction, you will naturally become more people on average, will nurture become more simm. You will be more likely to do what I say because I assert of myself and vice versa. If you are more submissive, I am more likely to act in in a sort of fashion. And I think about this when I think about I am a generally very sort of person.

But if as I go across certain relationships, like with my husband, who is a very accommodating individual, I am the more a sort of person, but have a couple friendships with very sort of people, and I have found that I take on a very samsa role and i'm happy, i'm okay with you, but I also don't recognize myself, and people in that role would not recognize me in IT yeah, and it's because i'm reacting to this. So if we are more assertive, people are more likely to do what we want them to do. But then with warmth, we copy IT.

When someone's nice to us or nice back, someone smiles at you, you smile back. If someone's room to you or snow, you get snippy. IT means that when we show up as a sort of and warm IT is going to, on average, result in an audience that is a missive and warm because I show up right as very confident and capable and also very giving, you're going to be more submit sive in response to my assertive, but equally warm in response to my warm and I thought, what's more fun than an audience of submaster ve warming?

So that's why if we can cultivate that a third of this and warmed, we end up having these easier human interactions because people are naturally playing their role. It's it's non conscious dance that we're doing. Okay, you've establish yourself is more alpha person in this. I'll be more subsidy, but i'll be equally nice to you because you're nice to make right?

Well in its its funny you hear the word is sort of a of of course, I think about like my dog and dog training and those words could be negative, but think about IT as advocating and accommodating advocating and the accommodation is giving me what i'm ambitions for, listening to my messages, giving me respect, giving me that submissive .

is the like the psyche term for thinking about the accommodation. But I D like I actually like your turn. So if you had, we had had this conversation, if we had this conversation before, before he had gone to print, you could have ably convinced.

But yes, that's the idea is I want a person who wants to please me and is willing to sort of accommodate my wishes and my my wishes accommodate my wife. And that's another benefit that we get when we can hit that confidence like ability combo. It's also gonna change how the audience reacts to us and behaves and exchange.

Yeah and thinking the C C rooms quote you use in the book when SHE was interviewed on cbs morning and she's asked, do you want to be president? right? And I think about answering a question like that, especially for someone like C, C, A broom who we've had on the show is actually a negotiation and her answer was just so brilliant, as you point out, which is like, yes, absolutely yes.

And I I have to say yes, because Young women yong, women of color, people of color, need to know that i'm capable of that. Therefore, their people of that, that combination of i'm assertive, i'm advocating, yes, I absolutely want to be president. But i'm also doing IT on behalf of others, which is that warm you talk about. It's one of those powerful communication moments where you think that is. I think you even use the word in the book of master class and how to answer a tough what could be a very tough question, particularly for a woman who might have been penalized for just saying, yes.

absolutely. You could imagine another situation in which somebody was downplaying their ambition and they're like, no, no, no, you know what? I'm just here to serve whatever happens happens.

And they just they did that. And then you would think we don't see this person as leader. Lake and her choice was really brilliant to say these two things can go exist. I can be very confident in my capability, and I can also talk about how I I care about that for what that means to other people. Yeah.

IT reminds me of a tactical I was using when I was started negotiating, being paid to speak. Often times, I would show up to an event and find out the man who speaking, same level credential, same time of speech, all of that was getting paid more. And so what I started saying is, this is what I want to be paid.

But what matters most to me is that I paid fairly. And often times I was negotiating with women. And I would say, you know, what I hate to find out is that a man of equal status and experience is being paid more than I am.

I'm advocating for myself. I'm asking that's the sort of right. But then the warmth is we're in this together.

I love this. I know my worth, and I also care about you. There is no short if there are infinite number of ways to do this, to show up and and hit both of us. I learned something every time, talks somebody about a different way. They do IT.

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Can you give another example of using both that warmth and assertiveness in combination 是 actually even Better know？ Let me ask you a question about out of office message. This was the part of the book where I was underlining.

I was like, okay, I just need to cut and peace all of this and remind myself of us because the out of office message you'd make such a good argument, that is a great opportunity and what i'd love to do. So I actually changed my out of a message after reading your book. I still don't think it's great.

So if it's okay, I wanna read IT to you, and you could take IT and tell me how I could die up the worth or dial back the certain monist are both. okay. So what does hello explanation point, right? Explanation point, symbol of warm thanks for your message. I do my best to stay on top of my inbox, but I don't always succeed. So if you need to respond sooner rather than later, pleasure without to anna, my assistant, and if you're acquiring about having me speak at your event or organization, please contact and I have my speaking agents info dots.

Kay, you're ready. Yeah I don't love, but I don't always succeeds saying on all of my emotions because you're self deprecating for no no reason at all and we none of us succeed it's saying on top of va box so no need knock yourself down in that way so I would get rid of that OK. I think our emails perfectly warm and I think talking about what are you doing.

So i'm not just not responding to my messages. I'm doing something else i'm writing by, I mean, when you gave you i'm gonna off social for the summer that I saw on social. I remember thinking you said you were going to think about another book and a couple of the things you were going to do.

And so I would say that's what i'm off doing, and i'm excited to bring you the benefits of this good thing, right? Because all of this is for the benefit of all the people who listen to you and read yo. So that would be just the tweet. I think you could do that in one sense, maybe to, and leave the rest of IT.

just as IT is. That was exactly the sentence I added, right? I do my best to stay my in, but I don't always succeed. And actually, I store IT from a male college who had that I really like. And I wondered if IT worked Better for him because he is a man.

But I was that was the sentence I was worried about because I do think there's a away women in particular, try to convey warmth by downplay e, deflecting the compliment. Downplaying our success is ways in which we're socialized to do those things to appear not frightening. Can you talk about how those effect are status?

yeah. So we knocked ourselves down. We tend to knock roves down on the capability dimension.

So when we're doing that, were telling people i'm not capable at at something. And the research is we are considered experts of ourselves. So if I tell you are not good at something, you believe me.

So if we look at when people say that they're not particular good looking, they are rated as less attractive to simply because they set IT when they say they're not smart, the rated is less intelligent to why do people do IT? IT can sometimes be funny. It's disarming. IT does build that warmth, but there's other ways to build the warmth that are not at your own expense. Other ways to get the same thing that don't involve cutting down our own capability yeah well.

in the cutting down, the sort of cousin of cutting down, what you talk about is deflecting the compliment. And what I found so interesting, I think I was Chris little field. He said, you know, when someone gives you a compliment, they're giving you their opinion and when you say, no, no, no, you're saying I disagree with your opinion, it's actually a disaggregate. Instead of being like moment of connection, you're actually creating a conflict in a way which I ve found .

so fascinating. I know they don't want .

your opinion on their opinion, right? yeah. So let's talk about another way in which we sort of undermine ourselves.

You have a lot to say about why we shouldn't say we're busy when someone asks how we are. And I will tell you, I did IT maybe four times today already, so I desperately need this advice. What should we say instead?

So I think you have choice in what you say, but you are interview a million times a day, because anytime somebody says, what's new, how is that going? How's work? What's up? They have given you an opening to tell your story, and you can choose what you going to do with that.

But to say busy or fine, busy is my least favorite because busy implies that I just think everyone, I hear someone say busy, I just have this vision of the person running on a td mild that's like a half mile too fast for their ability. And there is like china spring to keep up, which doesn't seem very capable and doesn't say anything warm. So I think it's a wasted opportunity with with just a few more words, you could say something so I don't have a script for what you should say when someone asks you but here are some options say something that builds warmth like i'm great now that i'm talking to you.

I don't say anything fake, but trust me like if you heard the day that you are the absolute best part of, like this is awesome whatever this says, I like that say something that celebrates a little bit of a win like I am having a great workday today and you don't have to give him four, five sentences as to why it's great but you could Spark a little curiosity and they might say, oh, why is a great and then you could tell a little bit of your story anything that is truthful that is still short because no one wants a lecture yeah and inspires some curiosity enables you to tell them that, like you're either succeeding or you care about them is a good answer. So when you were saying you are busy, did you think about like what you could have? Well, what would have felt like natural isan said.

I thought, oh, elson can be sad. That's what I thought actually and I did when you're just describe the trend mill that's going too fast, I was like get known, but that's how I feel right now. So that felt truthful to say busy. But he also has become a .

habit is just a reflex. I mean, accurate. But it's just you say that because everyone else is set IT and IT just somehow feels like the thing that everyone says as opposed to this is the most important thing that I want to reflect to you at this moment is my business is just so like a new gic response.

Well, and I think to your point, IT IT has the potential to either come off as the humble brag of i'm so busy, i'm so important or of contain some inability to actually manage your time or manager to do this, which let's be fair, most of us that's actually accurate for many of us. But I don't think that's the impression you think you're giving when you say that.

that at least tell them what you're busy about. I'm busy because the pog as is restarting again. I'm busy because my book launched and something least tell what you're busy doing is a little bit Better than busy period. Yeah.

I love the sort of small weeks right that you can make. IT doesn't have to be this overhauling my empire style, taking the public speaking course. It's just small things. And I just want to talk about a few of those. So it's small things when you talk about this daily connection, have IT, can you explain .

what that is? Yeah just people cannot help you build your status if they don't know you exist. So when we teach people that there's was a network, people know they're heard IT a million times.

They feel guilty if they don't do IT. But then I like what I was be doing with this whole thing anyway. So I think about broadening my network of people who know I exist. So I have a couple things that I do as consistently as I can.

One is, my absolute favorite time is to get up at like an ungodly early hour for my house is dark, my kids are asleep, I make myself coffee, I sit in almost dark, and I will do a couple of things. I will first do all the new york times, like the word of the mini preis, OK street strands has been a great new dish. Okay, I do that.

But then the other one is am often on my email and on my social media, and I will send either one new through. So like i'm a linking a lot, send a new connection of somebody that I can crossed my fee, I think I want to know, but i'm not connected to like one message or one reconnection of somebody that i've seen come across the fee and I have to talk to in a while. And so I just do one. And I I try to do IT every weekday, but I don't always hit IT because sometimes life happens.

And the other one is I tried to whenever I am sitting in a car waiting to pick up a child from an activity, I use that as an opportunity because I often screwing on my phone to connect with somebody through email, text, again, generally a reconnection of somebody to keep a little list on my phone, of people that I like next time I have a moment to reach out to, or when I don't have anyone look on the list, have a mind. I take my finger on my phone, in my text, and I wipe up like ten times. So you get to the very bottom. I think if you're at the very bottom of my text, I am to talk .

to you a while. I actually highlighted this because I was like, I want to do this and and then I have a lot of things that I highly IT I wanted to do. But I will tell you, I have not implemented IT because the interview to me is so afraid of the consequences of like, oh, I send this linked to the message now they are going ask for a coffee and I don't want to have a coffee and like and so I think it's such a good piece of advice to connect. But how do you write size IT in your mind? To me, IT feels like a spiral of, like, now gonna have eighteen more on red messages that I haven't be able to respond to.

Well, again, this is where everybody hasn't decide for themselves. So if it's gonna start creating stress, you're not gonna do IT more two days. So then I think that's not the strategy for you.

But what I would say is forget new connections, go with reconnections because there are so many relationships that we have had at some point. Where we just let them kind of weather on the vine, not out of intent, just we ve got busy. And I think if you just reconnected with people you already like, then there's not be a massive new ask.

It's going to come out of IT. Yeah or if they do want to reengage with the coffee, you're actually excited. And I would just start there with something that does feel authentic or even limited in a very specific way of i'm only going to reach out to people that I would want to, to have a couple of here.

But I also think you could do IT if you wanted to reach out to new people and just make IT a close conversation. Don't leave a super open doll. Would you like to meet? But rather, i've been following your content.

I think it's really impressive. I've learned a lot from IT. I just wanted to let you know that it's had a great impact. Thank you so much.

Yeah, you know you're making me think that I have a list of people mentally eventually brought IT to my notes APP of people who I saw speak, who I read an article by, who I ve just wanted to say thanks for. Are doing that right? I love getting those messages like, why wouldn't I do that for someone else? And IT doesn't have to be a big like I would love to learn more about what you're doing or I wanted ask you a million questions about this. And I love when people say this in a message to me so I can even add there's no need to respond. I just wanted to know .

I was in right? So at least is a point of connection that you build the warmth and you've complimented them so they already think you're smart because they think they are amazing. And so if you've told them that you also think they are amazing, you get even a little bump, your intelligence as well.

It's also status building for you because when someone has has said something nice to you, you're much more likely I want to say something nice to them or say something nice about them to other people, right? And so if you are complimenting them, you did a really great job the next time they're in a conversation that you're not part of and you didn't even know existed that amy g, she's amazing. I love her too.

And now therefore there complimenting you and building your status just by you doing something really authentic, which was you telling them what you really appreciated about them. So it's like authenticity and strategy. They can set side by side.

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Lets talk about another exercise I haven't had the courage to actually start, which is your collecting nose exercise. Can you explain what this is? It's something .

that I started using in my negotiation influence classes, one of teaching M, B, A students to get them to go out and push the boundaries of their skills in the real world. And we often think negotiation try to get yes, but this assignment is trying to get nose. So the goal is make ten different asks of ten different people.

So don't just go to the same one person and ask them ten times ten other people until you get ten and knows and IT doesn't have to be the word no. What has to be the person is essentially saying to you, in some way, shape reform. This is not happening.

Every time you get to know, you can put IT on the list. If you get a yes, IT doesn't count. It's good for you because you got a yes, but you can't use IT for the assignment.

Yeah, most of the time people think I will be done with this exercise by new, because people tell me, know all the time, it's gonna really easy. And I know, I tell them, ask for anything you want if it's bigger, small, because then you can't lose. If they say yes to you, you got a yes, great.

And if they say no, you're one slip closer to being done with the exercise. IT takes people a lot longer than they expect because they get a lot more uses. And one of the things they start to realize is that the boundary between where people say yes, I know, is not exactly where they had drawn IT in their head. And in many cases, it's further out, uh, i'd like IT that IT helps people realize that they can be advocating for more things in their life than they had previously.

okay. So what are some of the work knows that you've heard women collect. What are some examples .

of things are asking for extra resources for projects. Sometimes people they're doing them at work will negotiate for their own you know promotion or pay or things like that. But IT is actually interest.

You asked me the question that way because the ones I always remember are the ones where people get the yes, that I wanted to change the role that I was that I know how I wanted to do more of this work in less of this work and people said, yes, I wanted more visibility in presenting quick as I wanted to actually, like, be in front of the eyes. Oh, I wanted them to pay for extra resources that we're gone to be related to my professional development. Send me to this program where I wanted to do this class of things like that.

So those are the ones always stick out for me. And yes, there are people who asked for those things in their context and they get to know too. But i'm always lake, this was harder than you thought for people to turn you down. And then people feel much more confident of what's harder than I thought, you know, people wanted help me yeah. And the things i'm asking for are not as as unreasonable as perhaps I thought they were.

Well, two things came to mind right away when I thought about asking in a work context. One was asking someone to do something instead of me side delegating, what he call that peer delegating.

And the second is asking, can we do ay? Can we have this meeting next week instead of this week? Can I hand this thing into you? Can I be a week late? And it's funning because the research, I think shows and both those situations, people are more likely to say yes than we expect, as you found out from this exercise.

But I actually, because I haven't had the cage to try this, I actually want to ask our listeners who, for anyone who's listening going, oh, I should do that too. But i'm afraid to, i'm gonna say, can we do this together and report back and maybe will do a follow up on the episode, maybe figure out how to how to communicate, but email us, let us know if you intend to try IT. You can tell us you're gonna do IT. But here's my question about this. Does getting the no impact your status?

No, I think IT doesn't unnecessarily at now. If you ask is very agreeable and you are very pushy about IT and someone has to say for the eight third time, the answer is no, then IT probably has affected your status because what you're showing up is, is not very other oriented or very caring. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.

I think you're saying more of the hey, would IT work for you. I would really help me to have an extension of this. I'm going to suggest we do this two weeks from today rather than today.

yes. And they say, nope, we need to do IT and you stop IT there and you say, okay, heard, we'll get IT. We'll figure out another solution that kind of situation. No, i'm not worried about that impacting your status you've advocated for ourself. But also when you say I hear your concerns or could we talk IT through even more if IT is something that's really important to you and you really do want to push to, yes, maybe there's a way you can get what you want to get you want, and that's the whole negotiation of being able. So I wouldn't have that as a fear. And in fact, one of the things that people also get from this, oh, wasn't that I have the story about how bad it's going to be, that I will do sad as when I get to know and no one to like me again and you realize, oh, none of those things actually happened either, even in the ones where I got ta know IT was no, doesn't work a fine and then we moved on from IT yeah.

because there's this, I think get to actually should be reit who talks about negotiating against yourself. So like you are going about to ask something, but then you come up with all the reasons why the person is gonna no. And to me, the fear in that to connect back to your work is that i'm losing status.

If they are saying, no, you don't deserve a raise or no, what why are you asking? This is totally off cycle or or who do you think you are? And so there is a concern. Sometimes it's less about getting the know and it's more about the impact on my status and i'm concerned about yeah so let's pausing .

on this first second because I think this is really important and I want to offer a couple. But any duke.

we both know yeah, he is a professional poker player turned behavioral psychologist .

who is amazing. I'm brilliant. And when I was talking with her one I want, SHE said, people assume that if you say this is Better for me, that other people will be unhappy.

And that's not true. People want to know was Better for you, because if they can do IT, they are concerned about their status in your eyes as well. Status is something we all care about.

So you say to me, I prefer a to b people generally don't want to make you take b because it's worth for you. So this idea of when we say what we actually need IT can be really helpful because if we don't get to know Normally more than anything, people feel guilty. They're not they don't feel imposed, they feel bad, they couldn't say yes, and therefore you get credit for a future negotiations because they don't want, say no twice.

But more than anything, they think, oh, if this is Better for you, and that makes me happy, I could do IT actually enjoy being able to do that. yeah. Everything else say about this is, you know, the spotlight effect.

We think people are paying a lot more attention to us than they are, and the fact that people are worried about their own lives is really problematic in some ways and beautiful news in other ways. All you need to do when you make and ask is not be memorable, because the second you leave, that person is back to whatever problem that is that is consuming their own life. They're not around thinking about you.

And so if you can do IT in a way that they're most likely forget by dinner time, perfect, the know is gone. And you were able to figure out whether as possible. Yeah.

you know, we've got a wrap up, but there is one thing i've been thinking about before, we and here you keep saying, you know, I magnox c if this isn't your style of this feels agg. But you also said something really interesting about observing people when, oh, I feel really warm toward them or I really respect them right now or, well, I think they're really capable noticing what they're doing and sort bottling that up to use later that I think is an a really important task that i'm taking away here, which is to observe and others.

And while you may not feel authentic to me right now to do that same thing, to see if I could just try IT out and see how that feels, because there are so many things I do now, as fifty year old, the amy, that twenty years old, he would have said he would never have done right ever, that I would never felt authentic. But that can change over a time. And I think as we think about gaining status and then therefore, power, that we do have to do some things that are slightly uncomfortable to us in order to dial up that warmth or die up the assertiveness, which everyone we're trying to do one hundred percent.

I mean, I take like the perspective of an experimental scientist when I think about managing these things, which is you have to vary something, you have to try something new. Because if I said to you, amy, yours, you was developed and your great because you're ever going to be, you just writing out last years, you like, don't change a thing no one actually wants that.

You want to grow, learn and change and develop, and that has to involve a little bit of trial air that didn't work so well. Now I know Better acta, so I always help people. If IT doesn't feel IT just a little bit uncomfortable, then you're wasting your time.

It's already something you know how to do, and I don't care whether it's status or anything else. You got to push yourself a little bit, but it's a judged call between a little and. Forcing myself to do something that feels completely think just because another person did IT that's not useful. And I think if IT doesn't work after couple times, then it's not for you and you move on to something .

else yeah that's I love IT and i'm taking a lot from this conversation. But one of the things is what seems like a really simple question, but I think is so fundamental to us achieve in what we want to achieve is to ask yourself, what can I do to show up as both assertive and warm in this moment? And I so appreciate you putting that out there in the world. I think it's change the way i'm doing things, and I think it's gna change the way of a lot of women do. So thank you.

Well, thank you. And I can still, especially coming from you that to be a lovely compliment, which I will graciously accept and not give you my opinion about your opinion because thank you that maybe feel very good.

So appreciate IT well and thank you for coming on. The show has been a really fun conversation.

absolutely. Thank you.

Els's book is likeable. Bat us how women get the success they deserve. I hope you'll join me in doing alison's nose exercise again here. The rules, you want to ask ten different people at work for anything that has value to you.

You d jot down each ask and whether you ve got a yes or no, also ducked down how each person responded and how you felt about their response, and keep track of how many requests IT took for you to reach ten nose. I want to hear about how to go so email are producer AManda at women at work, at H. B.

R. Dot work. Tell her you want in on the exercise and show reply with a reminder of the instructions.

Once you finish, get back in touch with the results and let her know you'd like to volunteer for a follow APP APP soon, or you and a few other listeners will tell me and alison and one another, and of course, this audience, what you accomplished and learn about yourself in doing the exercise. Oh, and for those of you who are curious about that, C C. Abrams episode I mentioned find IT by scoring through the podcast feed to february twenty first twenty twenty two.

And you'll hear our conversation with Stacy and her longer business partner, Laura hudson. They share hard one lessons from starting and running three companies together. Women at works edict origin production team is a man of cursy marine hook t to be mac rob, a card arcata xer in fox, and handle bates Robin more composed the steam music.

One last thing I just started writing, our monthly women network newsletter. I took over the rains from AManda, who had been doing IT for four years. If you don't already receive that newsletters, please sign up.

You can go to H B R dot or slash newsletters. Look for the women at work newsletter there, click that checks x and you will get our monthly emails in your inbox. Okay, I made me gala get in touch at any time by evening. Women networks at H P, R dot board.