Julia Gets Wise with Jane Goodall
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Well, hi there.

It's me. Juliane drives were back for season three of wise than me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the magnificent old ladies featured this season to celebrate the start of season three, we've added some grey new items to our wise with a me merchandise collection.

Head over to our merch shop to check out all of our great stuff like a classic wiser than me bag tote bag, a kitchen tea tower with my grandma did is delicious peanut butte cookie recipe featured on IT and a brand new gorgeous hard cover rather than mean notebook to capture all of this season's bits of wisdom. Start shopping today by visiting why do than me shop dot com? lemonade.

In california, when you live near the mountain, like I do, every once in a while, you get to see a bear or even a mountain mine. And it's a reminder of the wild world this place used to be, and that we've tamed IT thorough, and perhaps tragically, but not completely. So when the opportunity came for our family to go to the gala gos islands many years ago, the macula volcanic archipelago off the coast of ecuador, we know exactly how lucky we were.

And boy, off we went, and I got to tell you guys, IT was way, way, way beyond my expectations. I mean, I don't honestly, I don't think i'll ever experiences anything like that again. I mean, you're five hundred and fifty miles off of south america, right on the equator, the very place that gave birth to Darwins origin of the species and foreign. A person, and i'm certainly an animal person. It's just magical.

You know, I really mean that literally IT feels like it's a magical place, because you see, you step onto these rocky little islands, and you are instantly and absolutely surrounded by the most incredible variety of spectacular animals, blue footed boobies and galactose penguins and giant, tortuous and waved albatross, who are amazingly beautiful, and Sally light foot crabs, and, of course, the famous marine guanas, who are sort of the stars of the show down there. And the thing is, is that none of these animals give a shit about the humans. It's awesome because you are in their world.

You aren't king of the hill. You're in the minority in numbers and in status. And then you put on a narky or scuba tank and its bottles, those dolphins and seals and hair, head sharks, and see turtles and more penguins and egis. My son, charlie and I were just talking about the see other day, his memory of the experience.

And we were both for memory that when we are swimming, how all of these seals, particularly the little Young ones, the baby seals, and they so cute, by the way, they would follow us, and they would start to play with us right there. They'd be some assaulting around us, and they blow bubbles like little kids. They blew bubbles at us.

IT was like, they were laughing at us. IT was completely playful, or a marine iguana would clip up onto a rock and puff itself out. And I swear to god, IT really does look like some guy in a godzilla suit.

And of course, I realized that I just enter promo ized all these animals, but that's what we do, I think, when we try to understand them. Anyway, when I got back home to my entire st. Um I had promote A T V show.

So I went on the tate show and the main guest on the show was Nancy poli which was fantastic, because, of course, i'm c policies, greatest fan and admire. So I was telling a story about the global s trip on the show, and I was talking about the giant gala's. Tortuous is the biggest of all tortoises on earth.

We went to go see them with this natural st guide, who is wonderful. And SHE was telling us all about how the tortoises live for one hundred plus years. Maybe we shouldn't have one of the tortures on this show.

I mean, they really do get that old anyway while she's talking this giant toward us behind her. Starts to rub himself up against iraq and he gets an interaction. I am not kidding if this actually happened.

And IT was a giant direction, okay, because it's a giant torus. And I realize, oh my god, holy crap, this thing is master beating. This totus is master biting.

And right, when I get to this part of the story on the tonight show, I suddenly think, oh my god, i'm telling a tos jerking off joke on national television. And the climax of this story is the actual tourists climax. And then I also realized i'm sitting next to the first female speaker of the house in the history of the united states congress and SHE.

So classy and so catholic, and I am so not classy telling this story. What the fuck am I doing? And I kind of threw me off my game, but of course, Nancy policy was very polite SHE laugh at all the right places, even the josey part.

Anyway, I die. grass. My point is that the world was once a much wilder place.

Humans weren't the top of the food chain. We cheered the world with our fellow creatures, not because we were uncorrupted innocence. No, no, we had to share, but at some point we stop sharing.

And what a shame, because even in the controlled, safe way that I got to experience, the absolute wonder of seeing those creatures, cowards in the gapo s there is just so much to learn and so much joy to be derived from the living things we share this planet with. So as we embark on season three, i've been reflecting on how quickly the world is moving today. Work, social media, politics, often separate us from each other, from our own feelings, from our relationships to the natural world, animals and community.

But the amazing women on this show are out here fighting to stay connected and reminding us of the importance of finding our place alongside each other and nature and everything that surrounds us. So today, as we begin this new season, how lucky then are we to talk with jane? Good, all.

I'm Julia lui drive us. And this is wiser than meet the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

With nothing but a notebook, binoculars, a pair of incredibly shake high top converse and an intense fascination with wildlife, jane gid, all at age twenty six, ventured into the jungles of gamp and introduced us to our nearest living relatives, the chimpanzees.

SHE emerged herself in their world, observing them, living alongside them, learning their social dynamics and behavioral first hand slowly through trial error patients and pure determination. SHE built at the throws study of the species jay goole was first to observe that chips aren't just passive vegetarians. They are hunters, meat eaters and tool users.

This shattered the long held belief that only humans made in use tools and LED to the redefinition of the term man. Leave IT to a woman to redefine man. See, the thing about jay goodlett is that IT embodies how women often approach chAllenges since one thousand nine hundred and sixty, SHE has merged good science with empathy and revolutionize how we see primates and how we talk about them, not just as category species, but as fellow beings with emotional complexity.

For more than six decades, jane has shown us the critical need to protect chimpanzees from extinction, while expanding the idea of conservation to include local communities and the environment. In one thousand hundred and seventy seven, SHE founded the jane goole institute for wildlife research, education and conservation. Today, she's a global advocate for chimps and wildlife and our planet, Chris, crossing the world to speak about the urgent threats facing the planet, calling on all of us to act IT is not an exaggeration to say.

Jane goodall has inspired millions. SHE is the winner of the unesco peace prize and has been named messenger of peace by the united nations. And damm, commander of the order of the british empire.

She's a mother to her son, hugo, who is known as grab, and of course, mr. Age, a stuffed key who sits beside her right now. She's an offer for a trail blazer and let's face IT.

She's tars an's true jee wise than me and probably so much wiser than all of us. Jane gool, welcome. Jane gool to wiser than me.

Well, thank you. I'm very happy to be talking with you.

I'm very happy to be talking with you too. What a treat. So first of all, jane, are you comfortable if I ask your real age.

ninety, you're ninety.

and how old do you feel?

I don't feel any age, to be honest. I don't think about age. I just be you just be.

what do you think is the best part of being ninety.

the best part of being ninety, I suppose, is because i've lived all these years. I've acquired knowledge ah i've seen change you know, when I was Young wasn't invented that alone all these zoos and things like that.

right? Incredible isn't IT. yeah. I mean, how you just described the best part about being your age is really why we do this podcast is exactly why because we're talking to women who have been alive for decades and have so much to share and have a perspective that's unique to the experience of living along life which um were so grateful for. So you just turned ninety, I believe, right.

didn't you just I was in no April. In April I saw i'm nineteen and a half.

You're nineteen and a half. How do you celebrate the big day, jane?

Well, everybody wants to celebrate with gas or galas, whichever you say. Yes, I happen to hate them. yes.

But there was one event and only one that I really, really love. What was that so far? Tell me.

In california, on a beach, I was greeted by ninety dogs. The big dog, little dog appeal breeds. Mus, you name IT ninety dogs, and it's an off lesh dog beach. So we played in the water and got wet and IT rained and IT was .

just glorious. Oh, go, jane, that is so fabulous. Your dog lover, obviously.

But my favorite animal is a dog.

Oh god. Yes, people think it's chimp. No, but it's dogs. P, yeah, do you have a dog now? Actually.

I calm. Can I traveling three hundred days a year? No, you can't sad here.

It's very sad. Yeah, I want to share with you something since you are dog lover, because I found this so remarkable about animal behavior. So we have, this dog is kind of high, strong, but he's a really good guy.

And we used to have a small, little like deny boat out in front of our house, and we would walk by IT every day. And then he gets sold. And then the next day we went walking by, and my dog, George, stopped in his tracks as if he'd seen a lion and wouldn't move because, of course, the dining had disappeared.

And I thought, my god, the fact that this is meaningful to him, that his world has just been adjusted, and he locked IT, and I had to coax him to walk by that space where the day I was. And I thought, wow, that really, I don't know exactly what that means, except to me, that means a kind of intelligence. Do you agree with that?

Oh, dogs are amazingly intelligent.

They really are.

When I went to study the chimp, yeah, i'd never been to college because we couldn't afford IT. And so I finally managed to save up money. I went to stay with a friend who had invited me and met doctor Lewis leaky, and he is the one who suggested, asked, actually, if I would be prepared to go and study chimpanzee, would have studied any animal, but he wanted someone to study chimps.

S so that's how I got there. And after I live with them for about two years and learned a great deal about them, he told me, now I have to go to college. Now I have to get a degree right.

And I I got to canberra university to do a PHD with no undergraduate degree. yes. And I was told that down everything wrong.

I couldn't talk about chip, personality, mind or emotion. Those were unique to us. I've been taught they were talking rubbish. And who was my teacher? My dog, rusty.

and explained me how russia was. Your teacher .

explained exactly, well, you've got a dog. You know, your dog has a personality and emotions. Old dogs teach you that.

yeah, they pick up on energy in a room. They know if someone's upset their caregivers actually, in fact. yep. And speaking of caregivers, I want to talk about your wonderful mother, who is certainly a hero in the jane gool story, was SHE an animal lover like you?

Well, SHE wouldn't crazy. I mean, SHE the whole family, you know, love animals, but no, no, out of the ordinary, loving animals. But.

but you're out of the ordinary, loving animals.

Would you say? probably? I began watching animals when I was one and a half years coding to mom, yeah SHE. I took hold lot of worms to bed with me and said of being angry because of early earth he said, I don't remember this. I was one and a half yeah and he said, jane, you are watching them so intently.

I think you must have been wondering, how do they walk without legs so very gently he said, we Better put them back in the garden. They might die in your bed. So we took them back into the garden. And that's how he was SHE supported my love.

Oh god, you're so lucky. That is such as the deer st. Story, everything about IT, i'd love SHE SHE handled this so kindness and so respectfully and a nurtured in you.

What was the best to you? Obviously, I love the story of you at being in the henhouse, waiting for the hands to lay eggs. And everyone was looking for you for hours and hours. And did you actually get to see them laying egg?

I can see that in. No, 嗯， SHE came in, awaited four hours, and he came in because I couldn't think whether hell was where the egg came out. Yeah, of course, I was four years old. yes. And I can still close my eyes and see the egg coming out slightly soft and popping down on the straw.

That's cool. That's so magical. Are you like your mother? I mean, he was obviously an adventurer because he came with you to go bay.

And was your shape one SHE obviously supported you to sort of push back against the norms, so of push against the edge of the cultural on the lope. So you have that in common, didn't you? I mean, I guess you were sort of working in tanton like that.

Well, you know of the reason he came to combi. Is that a bad time? A tenseness tanaka part of the crumbling british and pile? Yes, and the british authorities wouldn't allow me to go on my own.

They said, no, she's got ta have someone with her. So was mom who volunteer to come. He came for the first four months. And after that, the authorities, I think they thought I was a bit crazy, but they guess I was okay, right?

First of all, I was hoping to sort of talk a little bit about those four months because what you were doing was hard. You were living in a tent and you both got malaria at the same time. Can you describe what that was like, jane?

First of all, yes, the first full months were very frustrating because the chips will take one look and disappear, you know, so I was only getting information through my b oculis. Quite far away. And mom had this, you know, SHE boost.

My moral SHE kept saying, well, chain, you're learning more than you think. You're learning what they're feeding on. You learn how they make next night up in the trees.

You're learning sometimes they travel alone, sometimes in little groups. Until I was really sad SHE left just two weeks before that breakthrough observation. David gravid, using and making tools. Yeah, I didn't .

know that part of IT. wow. Okay.

so let me both got malaria. He was much sicker than me. And SHE nearly died.

He had a temperate of one hundred and five for three days. And all we could do, we both lay outside. We shared. And if you had money, for one example, tent, yes, and all we can do is past the mm back. And for to take our temperature.

Oh, you poor souls. But you survived IT. We .

survived .

speaking up the moment, the pinna moment, when you saw, when you saw two things, you saw the meeting meat, and then you saw them using tools.

was the same chimpanzee vid gravy I called him at this beautiful wagon. He was the first one who began to let me get a little bit close. yeah. And IT was him who showed me two news. And IT was him the first time I saw eating meat.

So when that happened, jane, um were you in the moment struck at the enormity of what you are witnessing? Did you realize as IT was happening that this is huge? Or were you just taking IT in?

I'm curious. I knew I was huge in the scientific world, but I wasn't surprised because the book had been written by a an austrian wolf and cola, and he was studying a group of chimpanzees captivity in a big space, and he wrote a book called the mentality of apes. And IT was very, very clear how amazingly intelligent.

Chimpanzee is, where have they very quickly learn to use tools to reach a fruit that was higher, for example? And but the science brushed aside and said, but but these were captive. So obviously they're not really intelligent.

They are just aping humans and just ridiculous, you know, ICU ous, yeah, I need humans. Don't pile boxes. Went on top of the other to reach a fruit suspended from the ceiling, right?

right. Or even I when I was reading about that moment and you talked about how David gray beard had taken not just one blade of grass or stick, but multiple, and put them next to him, so that as IT, I guess, the sticker, the blade, sort of degraded or fell part. Yes, he would have more tools. Next, we sort of created a toolshed next to his body.

Right is right.

incredible. And then when you were writing this and sending messages back, who heard about IT? First.

I sent IT to my mental Lewis, leaky, yes. The one who got me the money for six months? yes. And he wrote a famous telegram. I wish i'd kept a copy. But you know, back then you didn't think of things like that yeah and he said, well, as we were defined as man, the toolmaker, now we must redefine, uh, man, redefine tool or accept to have humans god .

on the midy that is just, you must have been at your mind. I know what happened a long time ago, but to hear IT from you the story of watching IT as IT happened, IT IT must have been a truly awesome experience.

Yes, I was yeah IT also LED to the national geographic, showing interest in agreeing that they would provide money when my six months ran out.

right? And then the ripple effect of this, of courses that then there became an awareness of the area, the animals, the conservation. I mean, so much was born from that moment that were also thankful for.

I know you've said that you would spend countless hours sitting in one spot, which you called the peak. I wonder if you learned anything about yourself spending so much time alone. Was there something that that grew inside you as result of that?

I don't think so, because unite always loved. I used to spend hours and hours out in the garden watching birds and insects and anythin spirals yes, and then walking out willie the sea and walking that of course with my dog rusty um so can be alone when you are with a dog but yes, sitting out on the piece, yeah, you know, I really just had the feeling and where I meant to be, this is where I meant to be. And you know, I still look back over my life and think, well, i've got a mission. I was put here for a reason, and things have followed, and here I am now.

Yeah, it's kind of it's just mind blowing, really.

We will be right back with jane gool after this quick break.

Okay, guys, you know what's a huge and totally overlook problem for the climate food waste? It's actually hitting up the planet faster than the entire global airline industry. Let that sink in for a second.

yeah. So a while back I found out about this invention that supposed to help fix all. This is called the mill food recycle.

And I got to tell you, I am really a believer because it's got that special quality. Any new idea needs to catch on. It's insanely easy. It's roughly the size and shape of your garbage bin.

But IT also, kid looks like an iphone, which makes sense because IT was invented by the main engineer behind the iphone and the ipad and the next thermostat. So like every life changing invention of the last twenty years, you just drop your food scraps in and you're old neglected leftovers in the mill. And well, that's IT.

IT works overnight. While you sleep, you don't even need to push a button. You don't have to think about garbage or smell compost or slip a bag out to the curb every day because you don't have to empty mill for weeks on end, sometimes over a month in our house for real.

And it's completely, utterly. We're talking a month swarth of food scraps and IT smells like nothing IT takes just about anything that comes out of our kitchen. We're talking hard to compose stuff like avocado pits or our whole thankful to giving turkey circus.

I mean, milk really handle IT, IT, shrinks IT all down by about eighty percent. Turn IT into what mill calls food grounds, which kind of remind me dry coffee grounds, actually. okay. So the big question, where do all these food grounds go? Well, first of they make incredible fertilizer for your garden, or you can add them to your own compost pile, or you can even add IT to your curbside compose bin if your city has one.

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Well, I mean, think when I was four years old has been four hours well waiting for a hand to and then that's patient. So it's always been there.

It's always been there. Yeah right. God, as I was reading about your adventures and watching you, and I really do believe that you're one of the bravest people i've ever met. Can you talk about the scarious thing that ever happened to you when you are there and how you managed IT?

There were two scary things. Kay, for some reason I was scared of lep. Ds.

for some reason, joined, please. I think there's a strong reason to be scared of. No, jane, absolutely.

You had. I had the conviction that if you don't harm an animal, the animal won't harm you unless the animal previously has been harmed by someone, okay, therefore hates people anywhere. I was sitting on this peak, and of the, suddenly there was a little dip, and the grass was tool, and I heard a mouse sound, and I could see the tail, White tip tail of eod, coming directly towards me along a little trail.

And I was scared. So I made a lot of noise, and then I went rather rapidly in the other direction. And, you know, I never knew whether to go back or not.

I think I was four or five hours later, that will I have to go back. And on the very spot where I always SAT the left, d had deposited his pool. Oh, this is my place .

he was letting you know.

wow. But anyway, after that was okay. But the other scary thing, just when the chimpanzees were beginning to get used to me, IT was raining a lot, and I was walking on the trail, and I heard tips make this screaming threats.

yes. So I think because IT was raining, the champs were cold and miserable, and they were about six adult males, and they all started swaying the trees above and screaming at me. And so I SAT down.

I pretended that I was very busy, digin a little hole eating leaves on the ground, just hoping they would go away. One of them actually charged up behind me and hit me on the head. But unfortunately, they went to away level.

Scary what was happening there. How do you understand what that was?

They were treats me as if I was a predator. That's what they do to a epode.

wow. And yet you Carried on with your work after that. yeah. So I didn't dissa ade. You obviously no 哈， either way, i'm in california. And just a couple days ago, we had a bob cat on our property.

if you can believe.

IT the most beautiful animal. We also have rabbits everywhere. And he was stalking the rabbits. I don't think he got one, unfortunately. Legs, we have a lot, but it's really incredible when you see the natural world come into your life here in a, you know, I mean, a city.

Yes, at home we just have foxes. And when fox got very, very time, when I was a child, the fox made IT in under a little summer house, and the cubs would play in the moonlight.

IT was so lovely. Well, they are incredible. They are very much like dogs. You know, a fox.

And in fact, we have fox here too, and get a lot of this. We had some people staying with us and h they had left their shoes outside. And then he said, oh, did you take my shoes? And I said, I didn't.

Why do foxes have this thing about you?

I don't know what they take them and and IT happened to multiple people. And then one day I was cleaning in some brush down the hill and didn't I find a bunch of chewed up shoes that belong ged to my friends from the year prior?

It's really strange. Isn't IT? Yes, IT in this and this man in london um he went into a into a new house and he was so to gardening and he found an old fox then yeah and inside that I think there were fifteen shoes, individual shoes so I had a rain outside with Spike so he put these shoes along the rail. And so if you last issue, maybe it's here that's hilarious.

Maybe it's a smell. You know, dogs like choose to to chew on shoes. Maybe it's something .

do with the smell.

Smelly feed. Yeah, smelly. So going back to chimpanzees for just a moment, you've said you've learnt a lot about human behavior from chimps, and you specifically talk about a chance named goliath. You described him as an alpha male and almost like .

a psychopath class. He was actually a very brave, courageous tim. Oh, really? yes.

So he got to the top because he wasn't afraid of being attacked by a hier ranking mail. He wasn't metics big, but he was brave. And he was David gray, bid's best friend.

And he would sometimes go to David like all the other games, because David was gentle and calm, and David would sure him if the live had been attacked, he would embrace him. Then others, like, hum, free, was big, aggressive, yeah. He got to the top by attacking, and he didn't lost long.

You mean as the alpha is what you .

mean as the alpha?

Oh, how fascinating.

So the know then figure got to the top because he only charged at a higher ranking male, and his older brother was there. They charged together. So when you use your intelligence to get to the top, you last longer. So figure lasted for ten years as alpha.

Isn't that amazing? Yes, in addition to studying, the heroic chimpanzee said that study them helped you understand motherhood, and becoming a mother helps you understand the champs. So can you talk about that and tell me how you quite that your own mothering .

of your son? Well, I realized a personal, we have proof of IT of know the studies is in its sixty fourth year now. So we've got only back data.

yes. And it's very clear that the Young champs who have supportive mothers like my mother, that even a low ranking female will run in to defend her child. If the child is hit by a playmate whose mother is higher ranking.

Nevertheless, the lower ranking mother will run in, even though SHE knows you going to be beaten up. And those champs, the males tend to rise higher in the dominant iraqi, the male dominant iraqi, and the Young females grow up to be Better mothers. And it's the same, you know, the first few years of life for a child to be supported by a tiny group of people they can depend on, I think, makes all the difference in the world.

Yes, I certainly does. You know, there's something about your sun, hugo. I'm so curious about why did you call him grub?

Oh, well, there was a little chm called goblin and golbin. I know if if, if he was playing without the Youngsters at the end, they would just be Normal, but he would be covered in bits of grass and stuff. And IT was when we were feeding the chimps bananas.

And I remember once that he had this huge banana, and he eaten too much already. So he took a big mouthful. Tude spat into his hand and slept to all over his face.

And he was just so funny, my son, when I was winning him, he didn't want baby food. And so he always, his whole face was lucky. So I was silly. They became gobin in gobin grubbin gob. So gbs real name is grubbin.

Okay, that's just so adorable. Seems like Harry potter characters or something. But what about those early years raising your son? Because I know that you live not only there but you're in this serene ty yeah with your husband and step and so what was what were those early years like in the wild with him?

I mean, i'm thinking diapers, for example. I'm assuming they were cloth diapers and you were washing them somewhere. I mean, I don't know how what what was the practical life like with a baby out there in the .

wild as we were totally in the wild? Yeah and as I was never really very cold, mostly he was naked yes. And IT was very interesting because because he was naked and he mostly didn't wear that presso, we would call them that piece in england ah when you know, when he was in one and he wanted he hated that feeling. Of course he was trained that one.

yes, because he was naked all the time. yes. Okay, so I have to tell something. So I two boys and both of them have summer birthday. So IT was possible for them to go naked a lot during the summer, and that's how I party train them, was just get them naked and they sort of to become aware of their body and how IT feels and so on.

And they don't like the wet feeling above wet type.

No, they definitely don't. So we were in france on a holiday, and we were staying at a swanky old house that had a lovely salon with tapestries and so on. And my son, charly, I can't find him when I go. When I find him in the cl, squatting on top of a medival tapestry taking .

a pool wasn't very good but was very good gene but I .

did tell him good good party, good that's a great pop and we cleaned up and IT was all OK but IT reminded me of that. Um so when grab reach school age, you send him to live in england with your mother and that I can I just I can only imagine that that must be a very hard decision to make um how did you come to that decision?

And well, when we were at on me, when he was a little bit older, I would spend the morning just going up to tim camp, looking, talking to the students, but every afternoon was his, and I thought I could at home school him. But that was not possible. They just, they wouldn't learn from me.

So we got a student who wanted to come to come by, and so I said, OK, in return, but you try and teach my son to read and write. Didn't work. 嗯。 So he was eight years old when I took him to england.

And, you know, we are an extended family with me and her sister. My grandmother was alive, and he lived in this. That was, he really was still in an extended family. And then every summer he would come out to africa, and in the Christmas and spring I would go to england. So we want to separated that much.

I mean, that sounds like you got him in an ideal situation, ultimately. And that IT was the right one, was IT hard to do.

IT was horrible. Yeah, although, yeah, I mean, up until he was three years old, I didn't even leave him for one night. We were totally, always together. Yeah, and then then when he was eight, IT felt like, you know, I was betraying him all. Yeah, he was happy, but I wasn't.

Does he remember that as being a difficult time? Or does he look back on that is a happy thing?

He doesn't seem to really remember how he felt. I mean, he was going to a little day school, so living with his extended family, a loving grandmother. Yes, I loving great grandmother. A loving great arms. If so, yeah, you know, yes.

One thing I was struck with jane in reading about you and your work in your life is how you have been able to facilitate change in very chAllenging places with people who are chAllenging people. You did IT multiple times. You did IT with the copy lipsey oil and gas company.

You developed that relationship, and they helped you build the champagne rehabilitation center, and then you convinced N I H. To stop animal testing on chm. I'm just curious about this game because in today's world where IT seems as if compromise conversation between people of opposing views is hard come by, I wonder if you have advice about or if you can share your experience as to how you did that successfully. Well.

when I meet somebody who's doing something that I feel is wrong and shouldn't be, yeah, you know, the first time I went into chimpanzee. B are closest relatives who can live for sixty years in a foot by five foot cage with bars all around.

I mean, IT was so shocking, and I was, I was almost in tears when I came out, and all the head people of nh was sitting around the table, and I was SAT there, and I realized they were always think for me to talk. So what came to me? Some people would have started immediately saying, you know, how can you keep our clothes relative? Don't you understand how cruel bp, I said, I imagine you're all caring, compassionate people.

So probably we ve all feel the same as I do about whats going on in there. And then I showed them videos of how the champs actually live in the wild. And I could see in a way, I could see them thinking in a way I never thought before.

And IT took a very, very long time and many other organizations joined in. But right now there's know medical research going on on chimps. And now we have to do the same with monkeys because the two are seventeen beings, adults.

What you're really talking about is finding common ground.

something like that. Yeah also, I think the key is when you made people like that, it's precious little use arguing with them because they're not going to listen. You've got to reach the heart. And how do you reach the hurt with stories? So luckily, after twenty years, I got many, many stories. So I try and find out a little bit about the person i'm going to meet, yes, and try and think of right at the beginning of something, a little story that might reach as hard at the start, make a common ground, and then really important to listen to that person very carefully and see what, maybe there's something I never thought of as to why they do what they do or think how they think. Anyway, it's worked for .

me and you say, listen to them really carefully and maybe there's something you hadn't thought of. Can you recall an .

examples exactly that talk to an oil and that's really trying to do things right, like con oco. Before IT was connected, Philips, and I thought, here am I going out to africa on an airplane? It's using fuel.

I'll get there. I'll get in a car. I'll drive to whatever I am staying. I'm using what they searching for.

So how can I be so hip, pop, critical? And of course, now we are into trying to find alternatives. But back then, yeah, nobody was right.

So I, as long as I don't compromise my values, let me talk to them, listen to them, understand why they're doing what they do. And you know, people do IT to make money to survive all sorts of things. yeah.

So you're finding connection.

connection and reaching the heart. I think if we use head and heart together, we can achieve our true human potential.

right? exactly. After the break, even more wisdom from jane goodall.

Do you think being, or actually, how do you think being a woman was an asset to your work?

IT was a huge yes that especially in africa, you know, africa, tania had been british protectur big weight men coming in and dictating to the africans how they should live their lives and having all the top jobs. yeah. And so resents of the independence.

But being a woman, a frail Young girl, they wanted to help me. They went threatened by me, and I found IT dementedly helpful. And I mean, you know, when I when I first 呃 began working with the geographic and IT was a very， very different era.

So there were a scientist who are jealous. And the rumor was going around, well, she's got that money. She's only on the geography cover course.

She's got nice legs. So now you'd sew that person right? Yes, of course, but bad. Then all I wanted to do was study the champs. And if my legs were helping me get money to study them, I said, thank you. Legs.

of course. yes.

anyone? legs? Let's faced.

i'm sure they're still nice.

No, that not old legs. Oh no, but there I know, but their .

legs that have brought you far, so I don't want to trash them.

No, that they still Carry me around. Very happy.

right? exactly. Um well, jane, moving on. I would love to talk about your marriages. Can you tell the story of how you met your first husband, hugo?

How I met you? go. The national geographic wanted to document what I was discovering about for their magazine. They wanted photos and ultimately film.

So they picked about Lewis leaky, picked huge vania who is working in in kenya at the time where Lewis leaky lived. And he suggested to the geographic that hugi would be the perfect person for them to send out. And so he came, and I resented his coming. But then I soon phone that he loved animals as much as I did. He was patient like me, and IT IT was just perfect somehow.

And you had obviously a common love of nature. And you read somewhere that you both thought that you could change each other. And you said, you think that that is something that the Young people think.

That's a thought of the Young. Once you learn that you can't change people, all you can do is, of course, accept them as they are. How did you learn to accept people as they are? Because it's obviously not an uneasy thing to do. Sometimes when i'm .

not sure that I always can accept people the way they are, there are certain people that I could never accept the way they are, certain politicians, for example.

Yes, I can't imagine who you might .

be referring to. I'm i'm an N O, where a political yes.

I understand. We'll just say that who shall not be named?

Well, you know, companee live in a male dominated society. And sometimes when the males are competing, they stand up, right? This, wherever they may shake their fist. They kind of skull. And that does remind me of some male politicians.

That does actually, in fact IT really does the physical part of IT is certainly does so um jane um going back to your early life here for a moment a few years after grab was born, hugos work was drawing him back to the san yes and you were being called back to guba and you ultimately decided your marriage wasn't gonna work and my mom um and dad divorce when I was quite little and I think he had a lot of or I know actually he had a lot of inks about that um I I believe you said you consider the divorce one of your biggest failures and you have guilt about IT. Do you still feel that way or you kind of come to terms with IT?

No, i've thought about IT so much and i've thought of the reasons why I was the best thing to do. Yes, not reasons i'm prepared to talk about, but because there was certain behaviors and certain attitudes that were alien to me here, and I knew IT that i've made the wrong choice, except it's strange because I married hugi. Yes, we got photographs and film which helped the world to understand him.

So when I married him, I got a son called grub. And because I got a sn called grab, I got three incredible grandchildren. yes. And so you see, you look back and you say, well, that was the right decision of to all.

So you've come to terms with IT, which is phenomenal and IT doesn't sound like you have any guilt about IT anymore. You said you thought about IT a lot and i'm delighted to hear that because um yes, you're absolutely right. They're so much to celebrate out of that relationship was born that was so many gifts came out of that relationship. Lucky you.

Lucky me indeed.

Yes, yes. And I know that your second husband, deric, tragically passed away just five years after your married. Grief and loss is something that comes up a lot on this podcast because we're talking to women who have endured loss and walk through grief given their age. Um have your observations of grief in the animal world help you understand your own grave? Because I think the story of that the one a baby champ losing his mom is just mind blowing maybe you can tell IT.

Yes, well, he was a mommy's boy. His little baby sister died, and he was old flow, flow. And he was eight years old by this time.

But he took him back, let him right on her back, until he was too heavy in her legs would collapse. And he died about, I can't remember now, short time after his mother, he stopped eating. And IT was definitely dying of grief.

And so I think IT didn't help me understand my own grief. But IT helped me realize that animals feel the same kind of grief as we do. And i'm sure you've experience deep, deep grief at the loss of a dog that you love.

Oh yeah. And I can be just a stronger grief as if you lose, probably not a child. I can't imagine losing a child. But you know.

grief is grief.

Grief is grief.

and you can knock you out and you have to sort of sit with that. I think I mean, that's my experience. Anyway, I I lost my father and I lost friends and my sister. And when I first comes upon you, it's it's gutting.

But IT is I felt IT when my grandmother died, my mother's mother, but especially when I lost my mother, IT was just, and I still feel that, do you? Yeah, not the same. I mean, obviously it's different, but I still miss her. yeah. I bet my sister of us to, we hear her voice sometimes.

Do you talk about her together?

Yes, we do. sometimes.

Yeah, I bet that's a huge comfort. yeah. SHE sort of alive in both of you then, I think, yes.

But you know, three years ago now, I was asked a question i'd never been asked before, tell IT was a woman in a very big audience, about ten thousand people, and there was A Q, N, A. And he said, what will your next adventure be? I'd never been asked that before.

So I thought, and I said, well, if I was ten years ago and I was you know much physically fitter than I could ever be again, um I would have said I want to go to pepper in your gini whether a mountains and undiscovered species and I love that but I couldn't do that now so I said, well, I think my next great adventure will be dying there was a harsh and then that you nervous giggles and I said, well, when you die, there's either nothing, in which case, okay, nothing. Or there's something and I happen to think there is something because of experience so i've had and if that's true, what greater adventure can there be and discovering what that something is. And people have come up to me and said, I used to be afraid of dying, but now i'm not afraid anymore.

It's a remarkable thing to frame dying as an adventure. And I mean, really, it's remarkable. It's a wonderful lens. And have you prepared for that next adventure in anyway?

No, I just I don't think about IT very often, but yeah you know I just live each day. I think I live in the person.

Yeah, you sure do jane? good. All you've sure do with jane fonda was on this podcast, and he does has done something called a life review. SHE talks about going back in her life, reviewing her life to understand IT fully, so SHE can understand where he is. Now, has i've been the same for you?

No, I don't think so. I mean, i've always lived in the present.

but I get the sense that you have always understood where you were. That's a sense. I have .

at a certain point, IT hit me, and, you know, this may sound strange though, but I truly believe I was put on this planet with a mission. And the mission right now is to give people hope, because if we lose hope, we become apathetic and we don't do anything. And if we don't take action together around the world, then the future is going to be more than grimm for our children and great grandchildren.

Well, that makes me cry because you give me hope and i'm a hopeful person, believe or not. But you've be even even inspired red me further. And I thank you for that. I really do. I think you're such a magnificent person.

Well, thank you. And you know so many people have said thank you for giving me hope yeah then taking action, doing something .

about IT. And I am totally am taking as much action .

as I possibly .

can believe you may so jane, I asked little silly questions just to wrap up our conversation. Um is there something you wish you'd gone back and said yes to in your life.

something I wish I said yes to? No, I think I said yes at the right time.

That's the right time. You say. I think you always said yes to just the right thing. That's a sense. Well, jane, good, and thank you for being with us today. This has been a true delight in a profound honor for everybody who works unwiser than me because you are, in fact, much wiser than all of us.

Thank you. It's been wonderful talking with you and sharing some things. And IT was fun too.

IT was fun. yeah. Enjoyed IT very, very much. So I give you my love.

Thank you so.

so much and love back to you.

Thank you.

dear jane. Okay, bye bye E. Well, it's only episode one, and i'm already in tears.

Oh, my god, I know my mom is so excited to hear about this conversation, so let's get around the zoom right away. Hi, mom. Oh, I love. Don't you look nice?

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Ever a new t shirt on Green?

It's so great you match your your bookshelves behind you.

I think I urged you've .

been startled by A A costume and set .

designer, brian.

You look very good. I'd love IT. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. I am so happy to hear that.

And you too look beautiful. Thank you. And I cannot wait to hear about your interviewed today.

Well, mom, jay, good. All, of course, I start a crying at the end, because I love her so much, and what she's done for the world and for human beings and for animals. And mom, can you believe her name?

good. All, you know, I have this acting teacher who used to say, pay attention to the names that shakespeare gives to his characters, because IT tells you so much and her name is good. all.

And then at the end of the conversation, he is time about hope. And how hope requires activism to be hopeful, requires doing. And mom, get a lot of this.

So when he first went to tensor ia, and he was in gang bay studying the champs, SHE was twenty six years old. IT was required for her to have a Sharon. So her mother was her chair. Oh yeah. So what .

kind of relationship did he? Her mother.

very close. Oh, great. So SHE and her mom lived in a tent. Mom, in the tsan ian jungle for months.

That's incredible. incredible. How old was your mother at the time? I wondered.

Fifty six.

H that's yeah.

right.

amazing. Mom.

yeah, that's amazing.

Pola wants me to ask you what IT would be like if you and eye in a tent together for four months.

Oh, well, you know what?

What we .

can find out?

Are you inviting me to pick you?

And we ve got a state park here. know? We have to keep out of the way of the hundreds because the hundreds come by three times a week and they they have both narrow. So it's a little dangerous.

First of all, we're going to start by arguing where we pitch the tent because i'm not pitching a tent in the state park where there are people with those areas.

Yeah see what do you want to take park that has a four seasons very close by.

I would like a tent where I could call with a phone. I could call and get room service and turn turn down service and stuff like that. That would .

work well for us. Mom, i'm not against IT to a tell people that if he and I want to go, if you must have find attend, you can be there with me. I'm willing to try and keep a journal yeah, will let joy know how we're doing.

I actually, I think we should bring polar in. Okay, you guys, polar cabin is my long time best friend who actually makes this share with me. You need to come on to the zoom right now, and you need to start making plans with my mom because IT looks like you are going to be spending some time together .

in the tenth yeah, the exactly know as long as you have got a little, you know, deodorized to spray around. So we know that was thinking ten to be good.

Oh, oh no, no. I ve sorry, no, here is all nothing .

that already .

there's a conflict lave, and and and with that, for four months you will be so to be so. Tk, just just .

my god.

you will want to know how that is.

thanks. Appreciate IT. I'll just be a phone call away. Alright, love you, mommy. I'm going to now say goodbye to you, and i'm going to call you later today as my effect to check in.

Okay, there's lovely. I love this week. Bite.

bite.

There is more wise than me with lemonade premium on apple, you can listen to every episode of season three, add free subscribers, also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the wiser than me podcast logo in the apple podcast APP and then hitting the subscribe button, make sure you're following wiser than me on social media.

We're on instagram and tiktok at wiser than me and we're on facebook at wiser than me podcast why than me as a production of lemon auto media created and hosted by me, Julia li dice. This show is produced by criss peace, jara Williams, alex michelin and oho pest. Brahm is a consulting producer, Rachel neel is VP of new content, and our S, B, P of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson.

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