How to Ace Thanksgiving
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From The New York Times, you're listening to The Wirecutter Show. Hey, everyone. It's The Wirecutter Show. I'm Kyra Blackwell. I'm Christine Cyr-Claisset. And I'm Rosie Guerin. And we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site from The New York Times. Each week, we bring you expert advice from our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better.

This episode of The Wirecutter Show is called "How to Ace Thanksgiving." This is my first year hosting Thanksgiving.

Welcome to the club. I'm so psyched. We used to go to my Meme and Pepe's house as kids. But now that we live farther away, my wife and I and our kids are developing some of our own traditions. It's a big step. And it's kind of nerve wracking since this is your first time. I'm pumped. Yeah? Honestly, I've never hosted Thanksgiving. I've lived on the East Coast for 20 years. And so I usually am at Friendsgiving and I'm just bringing things to friends' houses. I love that too. Yeah.

I come from a really big family, so usually every Thanksgiving I will help my parents host at their house down in D.C. And it's probably like

It's probably like 15 to 20 people every year. So it's kind of like a coordinated event at the Blackwell House. That's intense. Well, doing my own thing this year, being in the driver's seat, means I have to think about all of the things. All of the things one could possibly need to do, have, and prepare to host a holiday event, particularly one like Thanksgiving, where...

There are lots of expectations. What are the traditions? What are we doing like we did last year? And lots of opinions on maybe how things ought to be cooked or tasted or prepared. I mean, I recommended that we skip both sweet potato recipes and they almost rioted. You were almost excommunicated. Yeah.

I mean, I'm worried that we don't have the right gear. It feels like a lot to think through, and I obviously want to nail it. Yeah, there is a lot of gear that you are told that you need to have, and some of it you really do need to have, and some you don't. But, you know, we're so lucky. We work in a place where we have people that we can ask almost any question of, and that's not

just at Wirecutter. We work at the illustrious New York Times company, so we can kind of reach out far and wide. And this episode, we're going to bring on our first guest is going to be Sam Sifton. He is the founding editor of New York Times Cooking, who has literally written the book on Thanksgiving. He'll tell us all of his best-in-class hosting tips. Some are more controversial than others. And he's

he's going to share how to make this holiday less stressful and more enjoyable. And then later, we're going to have on Leslie Stockton, who is a longtime Wirecutter kitchen writer who has cooked over 100 turkeys. That's basically a century worth of turkeys. She's reviewed roasting pans, meat thermometers, chef's knives, skillets,

and other gear you're probably going to want to use at Thanksgiving. And she's just going to walk us through what you absolutely need, what you really don't, and the things that are, you know, nice but not necessary to make a great Thanksgiving meal. ♪

I promise I won't embarrass you when Sam Sifton comes in the room. But honestly, I have learned so much, so much about cooking from him and Leslie. I am just a massive fan and she's an absolute gem. I am so excited for this episode. I've got lots of learning to do. All right, let's dive in. After the break, Sam's best advice for a senior Thanksgiving. We'll be right back. ♪

This podcast is brought to you by Apple Pay. During the holidays, I'm a big online shopper thanks to Apple Pay. And that's because I don't have to waste time typing all my info into those long checkout forms. Plus, Apple Pay is made to be secure thanks to the built-in technology of Face ID, which is designed so that only I can authorize payments. This season, do what I do and pay the Apple way. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services, LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer.

New York Times cooking is great for when I have something in my refrigerator and I don't know what to do with it. I love sheet pan bibimbap. It said 35 minutes. It was 35 minutes. A weeknight dinner for us. I love the chicken coconut curry. It's a really easy meal. It's super versatile. I can make it a fully vegetarian dish. This turkey chili has over 17,000 five-star ratings. So easy, so delicious.

Doing everything in one pot, even like a green with the chicken, with the vegetable, helps the flavors, makes the cleanup easier because it's only one pot. The cucumber salad with soy, ginger, and garlic. Oh my God, that is just to die for. If I want to go easy, I can find something easy. If I want to go a little more complex, I can go there as well. The instructions are so clear, so simple, and it just works. Recipes from New York Times cooking are more reliable and more delicious, really.

Hey, it's Eric Kim from New York Times Cooking. Come cook with us. Go to NYTCooking.com. The best pizza dough on earth.

Welcome back to The Wirecutter Show. We are so excited to welcome Sam Sifton to the show. Sam is an assistant managing editor of The New York Times and the founding editor of New York Times Cooking. And I think it's fair to say a Thanksgiving expert. His 2012 book, Thanksgiving, How to Cook It Well, is full of recipes and anecdotes and advice for how to host a great Thanksgiving.

Sam, we are so honored to have you on the Wirecutter Show. Welcome. I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me. You have cooked so many Thanksgiving meals. Can you tell us about the most memorable Thanksgiving that you can think of? Who was there and what did you serve? So I have cooked a lot of Thanksgivings and most of them really large scale, like a lot of people up to 30, 35 people.

And with 30, 35 people, you're just hoping to survive. You know, there can be amazing things or terrible things that happen. And I can remember...

emotional moments with my mom in her last year at Thanksgiving with a lot of people. That was sort of great. I can remember my little goddaughter stabbing herself accidentally with an oyster knife and having to go to the ER. She lived. She lived. She's fine. To be very clear. She's fine. She writes with the other hand. No, she's...

She's fine and she's back to opening oysters and that's great. So I can remember these sort of wonderful specific instances, but like to really answer your question, I have to go to Thanksgiving 2020 when we were in lockdown. And for the first time in over 20 years, it was a small Thanksgiving. It was just me, my wife, my two kids, me,

But it was really joyful to have the full spread, to cook all day for just four people with lots of sides. The kids made pies, tons of gravy for it. It was just really, really nice. And to have this tiny little dollhouse table with the family all around it and none of our friends and relatives who are usually there was bittersweet. But it was also sort of fantastic, really.

My kids were in the process of going off to college and senior year in high school, and it was like we were coming to an end of something. And selfishly, I felt like we were stealing time back with them. And that was a pretty special Thanksgiving. That's beautiful. That's really special. I love that. What were the first Thanksgiving-related things you taught your kids how to cook? Well, I think I taught them more principles than actual recipes.

Like, for instance, there's no place for salad at a Thanksgiving meal. What are you doing? This is so controversial. How dare you? What are you doing? Because it's too healthy, because it's too easy. It's both healthy and easy and delicious. But we're here to eat turkey and a bunch of sides. You...

Eat turkey once, maybe twice a year at home? People eat salads at lunch at their desk? Why are you bringing that vibe into Thanksgiving? That's a problem to me. So that's one rule I passed along to them. Another rule I passed along to them, there's going to be a turkey. Yeah.

Yeah, no chicken, no ham for you. It's got to be turkey. No, you can have a ham at Christmas, have a ham at Easter, have a ham whenever you want to have a ham. But the symbol, the protein symbol of the day, we decided together it's turkey. So make the turkey. So you have hosted so many Thanksgiving meals today.

I would love for you to walk us through a little bit how you go about preparing, because I think listeners are kind of in the mindset of thinking about this big day and what they're going to do and in what order. How do you prepare for Thanksgiving? I make a list. Basically, you want to be able to stage things. You don't want to have to shop online.

on Wednesday night for everything. I've done that. It's a little hectic, but you can do it. I kind of want to, like, couple weeks out, I want to be able to get my dry goods and my bottled beverages in order, wine, brown water, plenty of... And just to clarify, brown water is beer? No, in this case, it's bourbon. Oh, bourbon, okay. Good catch, Christine. No, just get the things that you want to drink.

You got that done. You got plenty of flour. You've got all the stuff that's not going to go bad over the course of two weeks. You get that squared away. Then the weekend before, that's when I pick up my turkeys.

Notice I said turkeys? Yes, multiple. How many do you usually get? Depends on how many people. A minimum of two. Here's a, oh, this is a cool hack. This is like a wire cutter hack. This is like, this is an upgrade pick. One thing I generally do if I'm not sure how many people we're going to have, I have the two birds.

But to supplement all this, I usually buy a bunch of turkey thighs and I roast those off on Wednesday night before the holiday cooking begins and then shred all of that turkey thigh meat into a slow cooker with a gravy that I make with the drippings from those guys. And now I've got this like turkey a la king mixture that's like just staying on warm in the crock pot.

And that'll save your bacon, if I can mix the metaphor, should a lot of extra people show up. It's gravy? It's gravy and shredded thigh meat. Wow. So is it sacrilegious if I only make turkey thighs? Oh, no, it's fantastic. You should do that. You should do that.

I don't have to make the big bird. No. Solved. There we go. Thanksgiving solved. Rosie wasn't planning on making a turkey this year. I was going to hopefully find somebody. Rosie, just make some thighs and call it good. Done. And then presumably if you have some leftover, you can turn that into soup or something else, right? Well, definitely save the bones and turn that into—I don't know about turning it into gumbo. Like all this thing, oh, I'm going to make soup. Like, are you—

I'm going to make gumbo. It's going to be even better. Let's do better. Let's do better. I love that. So you get those turkeys the weekend before. I got all lost in the thigh reverie. It's all right. It's all right. You can bring me back. I'm back on track. Okay. So now it's Sunday. I've picked up these birds. I'm going to probably hit the farmer's market and get the gourds and the Brussels sprouts and the like.

the potatoes, lots and lots of butter. I'm 90% of the way there by Sunday. And then Tuesday, Wednesday, I can get all the other stuff that I need. And then I generally begin the cooking process on Wednesday night with the thigh concoction.

And I make the cranberry sauce on Wednesday night. And then Thursday is just a rush until we're ready to rock and roll. Are you the pie baker or is someone else the pie baker? I am not the pie baker. Okay. The pies are not mine. Okay. We have a great crew of pie bakers, and I really look forward to eating them. We do—this is not perhaps how most people do Thanksgiving—

But the hour before the Thanksgiving feast or the 90 minutes before the actual feast, we eat oysters and drink Prosecco. Yeah. Because that's who we are. But you're also on the coast, right? Yeah. You're near an ocean. Yep. I'm near where the oysters live. This probably wouldn't be your choice in Denver or something, right? No. In Denver, we might eat Rocky Mountain oysters and drink Coors. Yeah.

And that would be cool, too. The point is that in the 90 minutes before the meal, I don't have a big house, and I'm getting a lot of people in it, and I don't have a huge kitchen, and I got a lot of stuff to do. So I want people outside on the sidewalk and the yard and the alley next door doing something that is not getting in my way, but that is intensely pleasurable. And so for us, that's oysters and bubbly wine. For other people, it could be...

canapes and beer. We do that.

Then we have the feast. Then we take a walk. Then we eat the pies. I mean, this leads me into my next question because you have a pretty hot take. In your Thanksgiving book, you are adamant that you are anti-appetizer, hence the oysters. Yeah. Why? Two reasons. The first is oysters don't count, right? You could eat two dozen oysters and it's like you drank a glass of water because that's essentially what you did. So oysters are a cutout from the no appetizer rule, right?

The no appetizer rule comes out of my feeling that I did not wake up at like six in the morning on Thanksgiving Day to cook for 10 hours so that you could come to my house, eat half a pound of nuts. Yeah.

And then say, I'm good. I'm not having seconds. But what time do your guests expect to eat then? Because I know at my house, we intend to serve dinner at six, but really it's not ready till nine and people are sitting around since three. So hungry crowd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you got to go head fake. That's where the oysters come in, right? Like I'm looking for a four o'clock start and maybe those oyster situation starts around two.

They're hard to open. It takes a long time for these people to mess around and get them. So, like, give them something hard. Yeah. It's, like, not very filling. I love my family. I love my guests. But it's a little bit like you got to give the pets a toy. Like, you got to give them a puzzle. And they got a puzzle to mess around with. And then they'll be really hungry when they get to the table.

Secondly, it's a lot of people. So I don't know that I want to mess with this little appetizer situation that I put together that I'm now going to hand out to 30 people and then take those 30 plates back and then we're going to do Thanksgiving. Like I made four or five side dishes and any one of those could count as an appetizer. It's all going to be on the plate. So, yeah.

Yeah, no appetizers. You know what's funny? My family tradition, my dad is the fifth of ten. There's a tradition where they eat Chex Mix, homemade Chex Mix on Thanksgiving. And it's not until right in this moment is it occurring to me that maybe that was to fill some bellies so that my mimei and pepe didn't have to make...

Three birds and 64 mashed potatoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, if I'm in a position where buying two and a half birds or three birds, like that's part of my prep. But if I found myself in a position where...

Geez, I got to stretch here a little bit and I'm making one bird. There'd be a big bowl of Chex Mix on the table. There definitely would be because Chex Mix is delicious. It is filling. You could throw some dried cranberries in there and call it like seasonal. Yeah. And that would be great. I make no judgments on how other people cook Thanksgiving, although I am very bossy about it. Yeah.

But I accept, indeed, I welcome all the myriad of traditions that folks bring to the table. And when you're orchestrating sort of the meal prep in the hours before Thanksgiving, like you take the bird out, right? The bird is resting. How are you keeping everything warm? So a couple of things. Those birds can and should rest for longer than you're probably resting them. They can sit for a while. Like what's a while?

An hour. Okay. So you've got some time there with the birds just sitting and resting. And during that time, stuff that's come into the house can go into the oven, replacing it, and get warm. But you've got to be creative about what you're doing here. So a couple things to keep in mind. One, I think it's always a good idea to have turkey stock on the stove all day long. A, it makes the house smell nice. B, it's not going to be as good as it used to be.

it's really helpful to moisten things. And especially during what the restaurant folks would call service, when you've carved the bird and you've laid it out on your platter, now's a time when it could start chilling a little bit or getting cold. But if you hit it with a ladle full of turkey stock before you send it out

to the table, bing, bang, zoom. That's warm. It moistens it. It's great. It's a can't miss. The takeaway that I will give you here, if you haven't figured it out, is don't carve that bird at the table. Nobody wants to see that. You're not Doogie Howser. You can't do that. You're going to take it back. Show them. Give them the Norman Rockwell, you know, reveal.

But then let it sit for an hour, carve it, get it on the table, hit it with the warm stock. Other things that make heat in the kitchen, there's a slow cooker or your mom's slow cooker. Like those can come in handy in keeping mashed potatoes warm and keeping your turkey slop warm.

Are you lucky enough to have a dishwasher? Take a look at it. See if it has a plate warmer function. Because if you can put all those plates that you're going to put out on the table and you can warm them somehow, there's less chance of putting warm things on an ice cold plate.

I'm usually doing Thanksgiving in a small Brooklyn apartment, and I will sometimes bring my Instant Pot to keep mashed potatoes warm or whatever. Absolutely. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, and you can, like, put it anywhere where there's a plug. That's exactly right. If your kitchen isn't big enough. ♪

We have a lot of people listening who are probably cooking for their very first time, and they're really nervous about it. It's a big pressure point. You want to impress people. You want it to taste good. Do you have any favorite crowd-pleasing dishes you'd recommend for that group of people who are trying to cook for this holiday? Yeah. Roast turkey, mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce, gravy, and a green of some kind. Now you're winning. I talk to a lot of people who are cooking the meal for the first time.

And what I say to them is what I say to people who are cooking it for the 30th time who are nervous because now they have extra people or it's a new apartment or they're visiting their in-laws. And it's this. Everything's going to be fine. Everything is going to be perfectly all right. You've never cooked a turkey before? I bet you've roasted a chicken. It's just a big chicken. These are not complicated things to do.

But if you really are nervous going into it, we got plenty of time left. Do a rehearsal. Make mashed potatoes on a Thursday night.

next week before the holiday, because then it won't be the first time you've made them. I find that people who attempt and, oh, I saw this new recipe in New York Times cooking from Melissa Clark with pomegranate seeds and za'atar, and I think it's going to be perfect on Thanksgiving. And it's a great recipe, but you're a new cook and

I feel attacked. You just shouldn't be cooking a brand new recipe for the first time on Thanksgiving Day. So first-time cooks, like, let's just keep it simple. Just lean into it and have fun. Let's pivot a little bit and talk about drinks. Do you have any tips on, like, wines that you think are a pretty safe bet, whether you're stocking your own Thanksgiving or whether you're bringing bottles to a Thanksgiving dinner? I'm always bringing bottles. Yeah.

Here's what I have to say about wine. There are people who know a lot about wine, like really know a lot. And then there are the rest of us.

And the people who know a lot about wine, that's a small percentage of the population. They're albino squirrels. You're like, look at that squirrel. That is a white squirrel. I've never seen a white squirrel. There are such a thing as albino squirrels, by the way. I think I saw one in Park Slope. Really? I saw one in Oberlin, Ohio, and I was freaked out. It was like a scene out of Harry Potter. And it turned out...

That squirrel was a sommelier. My advice is go to the wine shop, not the wine shop with the plexiglass, the wine shop that just sells wine. And they're going to be offering tastings all the way through the month of November. And you should go and taste a few and find the one that hits your price point fine and

And that tastes good. Find the one you like and then snatch it up. Like buy a half a case or buy a full case and it'll go well. How many bottles do you like to have on hand? Per head. Per head. I worry my answer will seem aggressive. Go for it. How silly are you? There's no judging. Let's get crazy. You don't want to run out. Yeah, absolutely not. Is it nuts to say two bottles per head? Hmm.

I don't think it's crazy. I mean, you can always drink it later. Yep. You probably have a cousin who's going to drink it now. So you don't, again, you don't want to run out because you got to remember at Thanksgiving, you're not going to change anyone's behavior.

And no one's behavior is going to change on its own. I like how you also mention eggnog in your book. Honorable mention for me because I always make that for my family on Thanksgiving. Oh, that's so great. In our family, my brother makes the eggnog. And he makes these eggnogs that he brings in these huge mason jars that then can last for the whole holiday season. Ooh.

My daughter believes that the minute the turkey leaves the table, Christmas music can begin. And so there's this kind of connection between that and the eggnog. My brother's eggnog is scary. It's delicious, but it's high test. Yeah.

Between prepping, cooking, eating, Thanksgiving creates a huge mess. I'm wondering, what's your ideal situation for the cleanup etiquette? Some people kind of get weird if you offer to help clean up. Some people also get weird if you don't. So how do you think guests and hosts should handle the cleanup process at Thanksgiving? Well, there are a couple things to remember. One thing to remember is people get weird. Yeah.

They're going to be weird about something. So that's okay. Another thing that I think is really important, at least for me and for anyone who wishes to follow my teachings, we clean as we go. I like to clean as I go. I do not want to get to the end of the preparation.

and the kitchen looks like a bomb went off. It's much easier for me to kind of keep track of what I'm doing and clean as I go, in part because there's a lot of food out there. I need that pan again. I need that measuring cup again. Nevertheless, at the end, you have 30 whatever plates, you have 120 pieces of silverware, water glasses, wine glasses. There's a lot going on.

You kind of want to just organize that and hope that there are people who want to step up and be part of that kitchen brigade to clean. If they're not, I'll step up and do it. I'm not going to get weird about it. But you just know that's not their thing. Hopefully they have another thing. Yeah, that's when we're in trouble. You don't have anything? Yeah.

Sam, we usually ask our guests one final question, which is what product did you recently buy that you love? But we're going to put a spin on it this time and ask you something a little bit different. What is your favorite side dish to cook for Thanksgiving? There's a recipe for my favorite side dish that is in the Thanksgiving How to Cook It Well cookbook. And it's for Brussels sprouts. It was a recipe of my dad's. And it wasn't even really a recipe. It's just like bacon, Brussels sprouts, heavy cream.

But those three ingredients combine into a kind of ambrosial fall flavor that to me is both a taste of Thanksgiving and a connection to my dad, who's dead. And it's amazing to me because I love it for that reason.

But my kids, who were quite young when he died, remember it as his dish too. And so here we are passing down a generational recipe that I hope my kids will make. And I don't know.

I'm a sentimental person when it comes to this holiday, but that's the dish in which I feel the strongest connection to the past. I love that. That's beautiful. Thank you. Sam, thanks so much for joining us. This was really fun. Thank you. Had a great time. Looking forward to Thanksgiving and hope you all enjoy it as much as I will.

Okay, I love that stock on the stove idea. And, you know, I think the big takeaway here is that when you're thinking about Thanksgiving, don't overcomplicate it. It's not the time to make a bunch of new recipes. It is time to keep it simple. Yeah, unless you like oysters, then just go big. I personally love oysters, but I will not be serving them at Thanksgiving.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk all about kitchen gear with Wirecutter's senior kitchen writer, Leslie Stockton. She's going to walk us through what you really need to cook a great turkey and all the things you can really skip. Be right back.

This podcast is brought to you by Apple Pay. During the holidays, I'm a big online shopper thanks to Apple Pay. And that's because I don't have to waste time typing all my info into those long checkout forms. Plus, Apple Pay is made to be secure thanks to the built-in technology of Face ID, which is designed so that only I can authorize payments. This season, do what I do and pay the Apple way. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services, LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer.

Before we get back into the show, I want to tell you about Wirecutter's brand new newsletter. It's called The Gift, and it's the ultimate year-round gift guide dropping straight to your inbox every week. You know, the best gifts I've ever given have been recommendations from Wirecutter's experts who, by the way, have impeccable taste. Every week in The Gift, the newsletter team will share hidden gems and some great deals on delightful things. They'll find the best gifts. All you have to do is take the credit. Sign up today at nytimes.com slash thegift.

Welcome back to The Wirecutter Show. With us now is Leslie Stockton, who is a senior kitchen writer at Wirecutter. Leslie has over 20 years of experience cooking in professional kitchens, and she's tested a ton of kitchen gear that can be helpful for tackling the beast that is Thanksgiving. That's what we're going to talk about with her today. Yes, but before we get into the turkey gear, Leslie, I need to address something. You recently told me this wild detail about your work history. You have cooked over

over 100 turkeys. Like, how is that even possible? How are you cooking that many turkeys? Because you're not, for those who cannot see Leslie right now, you are not 100 years old. I am not. No. I started my career in the restaurant hospitality. So one of my earlier jobs was I was a cook in a hotel. And so I

We did a lot of turkey roasting in the hotel for like buffets. And then I went to Martha Stewart. That's when when you get assigned the Thanksgiving story. Let me paint you a picture. It's June. It's warm. You want to go to the beach, but your mind is in November. And so between developing...

the recipe for the turkey and someone testing that recipe and the shoot because we styled the food for our stories. I mean, that's, I don't know, 10 to 15 turkeys. And then by the time Thanksgiving rolls around, I had to do it all over again. And let me tell you, after all that turkey roasting in June, you don't want it. Yeah.

You don't want it, even though I love everything on that table. So Thanksgiving, I'd have all these people around my table and they would be eating like, oh, my God, this is amazing. This is amazing. Why aren't you eating? And I would just be sitting there drinking wine like I'm just waiting for pie, y'all.

So, Leslie, we have a lot of listeners who are probably cooking turkeys for the very first time or maybe trying to perfect their cooking methods. And that can be so intimidating. They might feel like they need a lot of stuff like a roasting pan, a high tech thermometer, an electric meat carver. There's just a lot of stuff marketed as essential at this time of year. So we want to hear it directly from you, Leslie.

What do you think people really need to make a great turkey? Well, you need a vessel to put that turkey in, like a roasting pan. You can get away with putting it on a baking sheet, but it's not fun to maneuver a turkey on a low-sided, wide baking sheet. It's not fun to do it on a low-sided, wide baking sheet.

It's like a martini glass, you know? Spillage. With hot fat in it, that's probably not a good move. It's built to spill. Well, what about, like, I don't want to have a roasting pan because I don't have a big enough kitchen to store it all year long. Like, what, there are those, like, roasting pans that they have at grocery stores that are aluminum. Are those okay to use? Yes, 100%. The only thing you can't do in those is make the gravy on the stovetop. You know, you have to scrape all the drippings off.

into something else to like make your gravy. What about, do you need an electric carving knife? You do not. You just need a sharp knife. Okay. I cut up my entire turkey with Wirecutter's Pick and the Mac MTH-80. I love that knife, by the way. It's a good knife. It's so good. So just like a sharp chef's knife. You don't necessarily need like a carving set or something like that. No, no. I mean, a chef's knife will work for that too, I promise.

Lovely. And lastly, I have this big question about a meat thermometer. I've always wanted to get, you know, the meter. It's a very fancy digital thermometer that'll tell you exactly how much time that your meat needs to cook and at what temperature. How does it know?

Magic. It'll tell you that your turkey's BMI. It will. And supposedly, like, you put in the weight and then it gives you the exact time and heat that you need to cook it perfectly. But do you really need something that fancy when you need it? Not when you have a search engine at your fingertips. No.

But do you recommend that people get a thermometer at all? Yes. I think the ThermoPop, which is, I don't know, is it $30? Yeah, it's something around $30. I think it's a great investment. You really want a meat thermometer because you want your turkey fully cooked because it's a health hazard if it's not. And also...

Undercooked thigh meat, to me, is like one of the worst sensations. Yeah, it's like chewy and gross. Oh, it's slimy. Yeah. So it's really good to have a meat thermometer for that reason. And the USDA says that New York turkey should be cooked to 165 degrees internally. And so what they mean by internal temp is that the center of the thickest muscle should be 165 degrees.

And the breast is going to cook faster than the thigh, which is why you want to take the temperature from the thickest part of the thigh. And the thickest part of the thigh is, if you're looking at the turkey and the breasts are up, you stick...

probe of the thermometer through that little crevice where the thigh meets the breast and you kind of angle it out a little bit, avoid the bone, and don't worry about it. You can do this a few times. It's okay. Taking the temp from that inside part and

is really crucial because if it's undercooked, that's the part that will be undercooked, not the part of the thigh on the outside, right? Because that's been exposed to the heat for like two plus hours.

I just don't really understand. If you have the space in your oven or if you have a roasting pan large enough, why wouldn't you spatchcock a turkey? Spatchcocking is like when you pull the spine out and then you kind of flatten the bird so it all cooks evenly. Why don't more recipes call for that? Okay, well, spatchcocking a turkey is a pain in the butt. It's not as easy as spatchcocking a chicken. I mean, it's bigger. Sounds violent.

Have you ever tried cutting the spine out of a turkey? Get a really good knife. No, do not do that to your knife. No? So what, do I need scissors? Kitchen scissors? Yeah, if you can make it work in that, with those turkey bones. Or have your butcher do it. Or have your butcher do it because they have a bandsaw. Yeah. You know? Okay, so it's a pain in the butt. That's why you wouldn't do it. Right. And also, like, it's really easy to cook the turkey the way I cook a turkey. Yeah.

Which is roasting it. Which is just putting it in the oven and forgetting she exists for a couple of hours. Okay. So like a little neglect is good here. A lot of neglect. Yeah. Like a couple glasses of wine. Yeah. Just, yeah, give it some time. So if you're going into this, you want a roasting pan. If you don't have a roasting pan because you're going to use it maybe once a year, grab an aluminum foil one. And you want a thermometer. You want a meat thermometer. Yes. Or an instant read thermometer. Yes.

Exactly. And a nice carving knife. And a nice carving knife. And a box of salt. And a bale box of salt. So, Leslie, I want to know about the gear you don't really need for Thanksgiving. You already mentioned the electric carving knife. What else is there?

Yeah, you don't need a baster. Ooh, hot take. Yeah. Jinx. You don't need it. There's no reason. Why? I mean, you want to keep your bird moist? Why would I want to re-wet the skin that I'm trying to render and get crisp? Oh, okay. Okay. Good point. You let that skin dry out.

Because you want to render out the fat and get the crispy skin. No baster. Get rid of that baster. You don't need it. So then what are things that are nice to have but definitely not necessary? Nice to have. Gas grill is really nice to have if you're, like, really limited with oven space. You can cook your turkey on the gas grill. Outside. Outside. Obviously outside. Okay.

We're not bringing that thing inside. Weber has like step-by-step instructions. But if you have a three-burner grill, you turn on the outside burners. You leave the middle burner off. You put a pan on what they call the flavorizer bars to collect those drippings because, again, gravy. Okay.

And the advantage of this is that you free up your oven so you can make all the sides. And if you have friends coming over and they can like do their sides and everything, and then you've got somebody outside manning the turkey roasting operation. Right. I like that. And if you have a grill, you probably have a set of grilling tools. And they're great to use to transfer a turkey from the roasting pan to

to the cutting board. What I do is I shove some tongs up the cavity on the leg end, on the business end, on the backside. On the backside.

And then I scoop a very large spatula supporting the neck end. And I just, it's a very safe way to transfer the turkey from the roasting pan to the cutting board. Now, here's a little expert tip. There is some juice that has accumulated inside the cavity and you kind of want that involved in your gravy making. So I just tilt up with the spatula on the neck end and just kind of gently

gently let those juices run out into the pan, then you have more juices to make gravy with. Ooh, this is a really good tip. I feel like I'll use this. And if you don't happen to have like grill tools, could you do this with maybe like tongs or something in your kitchen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I use because I don't have a set of grill tools, but I do have 12-inch tongs and I have a giant fish spatula that's made for the grill. Just to recap...

The essentials that you really, really want to have are you want to have a roasting pan, whether it's a store-bought triple-layered aluminum pan or whether you're investing in a nice pan that you're going to use over and over. You should have some kind of sharp knife like a chef's knife. You want that instant read thermometer because you got to have that to make sure that your bird is done. And it's good year-round. Right. And the things that you really can skip are a turkey baster and the little mini chainsaw electric knife.

cutter, right? No need for that. And then the things that you might want to have that are nice to have, if you've got a grill, think about using your three burner grill outside to cook the turkey if you are trying to free up space in your kitchen and either the grill tools or tongs to help you move the turkey. Right. Leslie, thank you so much. This has been so fun. Thank you for having me. I love being here.

Wow. I feel like I've learned so much. I'm actually kind of excited for Thanksgiving this year, you guys. I almost want to just stay home and make it myself. Yeah. But I still would like some invitations if anyone's listening. So...

Specifically if Sam Sifton can still hear me. Yeah, I mean, specifically Sam. What a dream. What did you guys take away from that? There were so many things. It's hard to choose. But I think the thing that was really new for me is that tip that Leslie had about using some grill tools or tongs that you have in your kitchen to transfer the turkey from the roasting pan over to a cutting board. I...

feel like I would actually use that even for like a large chicken. It's always so awkward. So that was a really great takeaway for me. That's a good one. For me, I think I'm going to aim to serve dinner earlier. No, but really on the subject of just doing things earlier, what I really took away from Sam is that you can start shopping for Thanksgiving up to two weeks ahead. Yeah, I like that too. For me, I am clinging to

to Sam's idea around making turkey thighs instead of a whole bird. I think that might be where I start this year. And also not trying to be too ambitious, not trying to make something I've never seen or heard about

until the day before Thanksgiving and then trying to tackle that on the big day while I'm also juggling hosting and perfecting the eggnog and the spiced mulled wine and all of that. So keep it simple. That's right. And it'll all be fine. Everything will be fine. It's going to be great. Yeah.

Well, that's it for us this week. If you want to find out more about Wirecutter's coverage or if you want to check out any of the products that Leslie recommended, go to nytimes.com slash Wirecutter or find a link in the show notes. Special thanks this week to Sam Sifton and Leslie Stockton. That is it for us. Happy holiday season. Happy holidays.

The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin, and produced by Abigail Keel. Editing by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Baetube, and Diane Wong.

Wirecutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor-in-chief. I'm Christine Cyr-Clessette. I'm Kyra Blackwell. And I'm Rosie Guerin. Thank you for listening. You wiggle the turkey legs? Yeah, man. I touch my food. I'm clean. I'm not dirty.