It Was What It Was: Rafa Benitez: My Coaching Secrets - Part One
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So welcome to It Was What It Was with me, Rob Draper, and Jonathan Wilson, and welcome to a very special edition with an exceptional guest, a coach who Jonathan and I believe transformed the Premier League tactically. Indeed, his appointment 20 years ago in June 2004 came within a week of another Southern European coach, a Portuguese coach, also young, also very confident, also very tactically intelligent.

innovative and between them we think these two coaches completely changed English football. So our guest today is going to explain his part in that transformation and he won two La Ligas and a UEFA Cup with Valencia, the FA and the UEFA Super Cup with Liverpool, the World Club Cup with Inter, the Europa League with Chelsea, the Coppa Italia with Napoli, the Championship with Newcastle, too many Super Cups and Community Shields to mention and of course

on one memorable night in Istanbul in perhaps the most dramatic final of all time in 2005. He won the Champions League with Liverpool. He is, of course, the great Rafa Benitez. Rafa, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. That's an awful lot of trophies that you won. Yeah, I won some of them. But normally as a coach, people, they don't realise how difficult it is to win trophies.

to win is always difficult but how difficult is to win in another country because you have to adapt to different culture and then the language and everything but also I would say to promote so the promotions and championship you know how difficult is to promote but I did it also twice in Spain that means that you are a coach so you have the idea in England there's a manager

and coach, but in Spain it's a coach, and then when you came to England, you are the manager, and still you are a coach. You go on the pitch every day, you coach your players, your staff, everyone, and then after, you are the manager. So that means that you have to spend maybe 12 hours, 14 hours every day at the beginning until you realise more or less what is your specific job. And a friend of mine that is around, he told me,

When we won the Champions League, listen, you are the manager. Now you can make the difference or you can make decisions about how the structure is going on because before you were a coach. That's it, coaching. So before we sort of get into that in detail and the challenges of moving to a new country,

Let's go right back to the start, to your early life in Spain. So your mother was a Real Madrid fan, your father was not a Dadago fan, but tell me about your early experience in football. Were you playing football? Were you watching football? Were you going to the stadium? Were you listening on the radio? How did you first experience football? Yeah, some people say, oh, he didn't play football. It's not true. We were playing football since I was, I don't know, three years old and we were spending all the year and the summer playing football all the time. And when I was...

At 11 years old I was playing for the school in Madrid. You have a competition between all the schools in Madrid. So that is really good for promoting football. I was playing on Saturday. And with 12 years old I was playing. 11 years old, Gallego, Ricardo Gallego was my school, my team.

The year after that he left, I was the captain of the team and we won the competition in Madrid. That is quite an achievement for a 12-year-old, especially because you have Madrid, it's a big city. It's like you say, oh, we play in London and you win the competition. So I was playing football. Then I have a trial with Real Madrid and I passed. And then 13 years old, I started playing for Real Madrid in the academy. And obviously I was progressing and we won the Youth Cup when I was 18 years old.

I was fine as a player. I was playing as a sweeper at this time and as a holding midfielder. And I started as a right winger, but I was not a winger. I didn't have the pace. As a holding midfielder, I could see the game because I was not the quickest, but I could see tactically what was going on around me. So right from those early days, you had a very strategic brain. I will tell you something more. So 18 years old, we won the Youth Cup. At 19 years old, I was injured. But when I was 13 years old,

My father gave me a notebook and I was taking notes of all my team, giving marks as a journalist and then controlling the goals. In Spain it was 0-3, and 3 was really good, and I was always 2, 3, never was a 0. So I was doing all this control. 16 years old, during the summer, I was coaching my friends. We played competitions in the summer.

And when I went to the university, 17 years old, I started as a player coach. So in my head, always I was thinking as a coach and I didn't notice, I didn't realise that I was just playing and enjoying. And in the university, obviously, I did also the specialisation in football. So I was always thinking football, football, and I was thinking as a coach.

Do you remember your first game that you went to? Was it at Santiago Bernabeu or did your father take you? As a fan? As a fan, yeah. As a child.

I don't remember. It could be Bernabeu because when I was 13 and we were training on Friday, so if you go to Madrid to the Bernabeu, the angle of the Bernabeu was called the angle and then it was where my pitch was. It was a small pitch of sand because in Spain you have sand, you don't have grass everywhere. For example, when you were going, give me the boots, then the kid was, OK, which number? 41. Take this one.

It's a 44. Come on, boy, get out. And then you were going with a 44 and then you have to change. Which one? No, 42. OK, give me this 44. So that was the way. And you were watching football all the time. So we train in the sports centre that is where the four towers are now.

and we were walking it was around 20-30 minutes walking depending on your pace to the stadium you have to go one hour and a half two hours early because you go to the third ring that we take

And then you stand up. The third tier of the stadium. Yeah. So you have to go at the top. So you stand at the back. But then you have to go early because there were five rows. So you go in the fifth so you couldn't see anything and the players, they were very small. So you have to go early. You go with your sandwich and then the way that we were watching games at this time. You're 12, 13 at this age? Yeah, 13 could be. I guess if you're seeing the game from above...

If you want to see the shape of the game, that's the perfect place to be. Yeah, perfect. But then you could see the players, you could recognise the players because you were watching them training. Oh, this is San Jose. Oh, this is Del Bosque. But the normal people will see...

small hands moving around. But from your point of view, understanding the game right from the strategic point of view, it's ideal. Yeah, it could be fine, for sure. I didn't realise at this time that I was a coach, but when I was in the university and I was playing for Real Madrid and I was a better player than my teammates at this time, I was in the stands and I was watching the game and something was wrong and I said, OK, I have to play now. So I always had this vision from outside and also...

You are too young, but at this time when you were playing as a sweeper, you could see everything. So the sweeper could anticipate what was going on. And I could see that. As a holding midfielder, it's different because you can see what is going on, but you don't know what is going on behind you. The sweeper always was protected. So then you have this vision and you analyse and then I was a talker. So when I was getting older...

with my injury, I was injured when I was 19, when I was getting older I was talking more and more because I couldn't run. How did your teammates respond to that? If you're playing with people at university, are they quite happy to be directed? Humans and players, they are not stupid. They realise when someone is telling you something that is right.

So I was always managing and I was more or less right because I used to win, no? Because I was the coach, the referee and then sometimes the owner of the ball, so you have to win. No, but you were giving advice and they appreciate that. They follow me because I was always...

learning and then explaining and I think that they believe in me at this time. And that strategic intelligence, did that come out in any other way or was it just in football? I was playing chess. I liked to play chess. I was okay but I was having a lot of books and reading and preparing an open play, this, blah, blah, blah. And a friend of mine that was really brilliant and we were playing

in the playground and when we didn't have space for playing football because it was full of people so sometimes we played chess and then I was learning and I played Estratego that was another strategic game so I like it to to analyze how can you do this how can you do that so it's always the idea how to improve so I always you say that the coach is looking for the perfection no and then I was looking for

tactically you can do this, you can do that. Physically, I was training all the time. My brother was in the disco and I was training on Saturday. So, and you try to do your best in everything and after you, when you have your injury, then you realise little by little that you cannot be

at the level that you want to be and then you spend even more time studying and visiting teams and then going to see another coach or something like that. Your great hero at this time is Franz Beckenbauer and I think you're at Real Madrid and you've got Paco Gente, you've got Camacho, Del Bosque who's a great influence on your career but you choose a German who, of course, Germany are in the World Cup final in 74, win the World Cup and Bayern Munich are winning...

the European Cup, right, Beckenbauer? Yes, it was more about the position, no? He was a sweeper and I used to play as a sweeper so I liked the way he was very elegant, always with the head up. So I have a poster at home with him and another one with Johan Cruyff.

You can see both with the head up. That is really important to see the big picture during a game, to understand the game. So that is the kind of thing. After when I was in Madrid, obviously we were playing with them. On Thursday morning, we have a game against the first team. I say always to Del Bosque, I make a tunnel to him. I don't remember, he said. So you were remembering these kind of things and there were a lot of good players there, but...

ideally it was Beckenbauer Germany was doing well obviously he's this handsome young man from it was me in 1979 in Mexico so because I was in the university people they know about the Olympic Games but they don't know about the Universidad the University Games so you have to it's like the Olympic Games but you have to have a degree or you have to be in the university so

Then I was in the physical education university in this case, no? And then they called me as a sweeper. Then I was 19 years old. I was the youngest player in the team and we played in Mexico. I remember we played against America when Diceu was there and it was a great team. And Cruz Azul, that was the other one, two friendlies. And after we played, the first game was against Cuba.

And we beat them 4-0. And it's the first time that I was taking a penalty because I was doing so well this time in the 15 days before the training camp that the manager said, oh, take the penalty. And I was too young and I didn't have this experience. And I remember the keeper that was, I would say the ball defender, he was telling me, I would say the ball, he was shouting. Then when I scored, okay, shut up. Then we beat them. And the second game was against Canada.

And then I was, as a stripper, I was running forward with the ball and then he came from behind, the number 10, and he kicked me in the knee from behind. And then I broke my lateral ligament. And I was playing, but I didn't recover. And I was 15 days there.

In the room, watching the games with my knee, with problems, waiting and then coming back to Spain, hard rehabilitation. So then I started having problems with my knee all the time. It was not a broken crucial ligament, but at this time it was another one, another one. In these days it was very hard to fix that injury, wasn't it? Yeah, the point is that at this time I was nearly going to Castilla, that was the second team of Real Madrid.

And I say, I didn't have the level for playing in Real Madrid, no? But I could play in first... I had an offer from Oviedo, that was first division, but I said, no, I will wait because I want to go to Castilla and go to Real Madrid.

I couldn't. Then they send you on loan and then you have an injury again. You go on loan, an injury again. I mean, obviously that must have been really painful for you as a young man. But looking back, do you think, well, OK, it made me focus on my... Yeah, I was 26 when I retired and then I started with the under-16s of Real Madrid. Then I started my career over there. It was Luis Moloni who was the general manager and Del Bosque was the coordinator, the academy director, we say in English.

and I was learning a lot and then still with the university and then I was traveling to Holland to Italy so I met Ranieri I met Rigosaki Capello so France even United States so I was always trying to get a lot of information and then experience from other people yeah

You were playing as a Libro when this happened. So was that the normal way of playing in Spain at the time, with a Libro and Marcus? Normally you were playing 4-3-1-2, so the sweeper and the three defenders. And they were doing man-to-man. It's not man-to-man, it was a mix. So imagine the rifle back. I remember Chendo, when we were doing the precision with Antic in Udine, he has to follow the winger when he was going inside. And then he has a big gap here, and Mitchell has to cover the...

the captain and oh Mitchell was not defending so Chendo didn't know what to do I wait here and then the other one going there because they were not doing sonal marking at this time

Then I remember this one in Udine because Arrigo Sacchi came to watch the training session and I was the assistant of Antic. I was the coach of the under-19s and I was the assistant. And then we used to play with three at the back and I was a libero, a sweeper and then the midfielders. So I knew the system but I started doing Sonal Markin in Real Madrid with the under-17s. So I knew how to play Sonal Markin and I was following Arrigo Sacchi. So Arrigo Sacchi came...

to have lunch with us and we were talking, I was talking a little bit of Italian, we were talking about that and then we were saying, oh, we play Sonal Marking and in Sonal Marking you don't have a sweeper so you have to play four at the back or five or whatever but it's a line. It's when a Rio Saki decide instead of playing with a sweeper move a player a little bit higher, a line of four and then be more aggressive in the pressing.

So then the sweeper, instead of being behind, it was in the same line and was more aggressive. I mean, that's a fascinating thing, that you were a Libra, you're a great hero as fans back in the day, probably the greatest Libra there's ever been, and yet your tactics as a manager, you had no Libra. No, because Saki was doing that, and I used to follow...

AC Milan I used to go to Italy I was with Ranieri two or three days when he was in Fiorentina he was great he was brilliant it's Claudio yeah yeah Claudio Ranieri invited me to dressing room blah blah so and you're a real good coach at this stage are you or you've seen coaching I was a young coach and I was travelling and when we were going to play in Madrid at this time for example the under 16s they were playing three tournaments abroad

So we used to go to France or Holland or especially Italy to play tournaments. Then you play against AC Milan, you play against Torino, that was a strong team at this time, Juventus. So your team, your 16-year-old players, they were playing these tournaments and it was a massive experience for them. And I used to go and talk with the other coaches, how you do this, how you do that. I prepared a questionnaire and then I was asking them questions. So how do you train the technique? How do you do the finishing? So I was asking and they were...

watching you this is crazy but that is the way you were watching I remember one day we played against River Plate

And they played with two liberos, with two sweepers, with a line of three with two sweepers. So things like that, that you are learning from South America, you are playing... Maturana is a good friend. He was the coach of Colombia and after he signed for Valladolid and Atletico Madrid, he beat Argentina 5-0 in Buenos Aires. So the way that they were playing with Sonal Markin, they were playing with two hold the midfielders.

and normally you play with one and the other one is offensive but they put two holding midfielders and the way that they defend in the wide areas is totally different they play with a magic square that they call in South America it's a 4-2-2-2 so the players in the middle the two holding midfielders are defensive midfielders

two players up front that they have some freedom and the two strikers they have even more freedom and the full backs like Roberto Carlos or Cafu they go up all the time so they are very very offensive because you've got the two defensive midfielders and they stay there so the difference is that they send I was asking Tassotti when I went to see AC Milan Capello was the coach we have I was three days

And then I was asking Tassotti, walking from the restaurant to the pitch, I was a young coach, and Tassotti didn't know me, obviously. I said, oh, when you have a winger 1v1, you leave him wide or you leave him inside? He was watching me say, always wide. But Maturana was doing the opposite. He was leaving inside. Why? Because he has two hold-in midfielders. They were going against him. So these kind of things, for me, I was really...

and interested I was learning from everyone trying to understand if you play like that you play like that so we were doing with under 17s in Real Madrid and I was talking with one of my ex-players when he was 16 said yeah yeah we started nobody was doing that at this time in Real Madrid copying a little bit Arrigo Saki I was watching

The AC Milan games, taking notes, when Varese was doing this, that, okay, now they do this. If they play long, they do that. And after, I was asking Arrigo and I was asking Capello when I was there. So this is, what, 88-ish, your late 20s? Yeah, I could be... I started going when I was 26, so that is 1986,

And I was four years in the under-16s, so that is, I'm talking about maybe 90, 190, 90, more or less. And then there's obviously the famous game when Osaki's Milan beat Real Madrid 5-0 in April 89. I will tell you another story about it. AC Milan was training in one side,

And on the other side, Real Madrid, they were asking someone that was there, who would you think that would win the game? And they said, listen to the ball. The way that they were kicking the ball. Boom, boom, boom. And Real Madrid was passing, blah, blah, blah.

so it was a big difference they were really a very professional team they were playing with high intensity all the time that was the difference Was that the confirmation to you that the high press the zonal marking that that was the way you had to play Yeah I wanted to play I was lucky enough like every coach in Real Madrid Academy because my team was better than the others the majority of them you were playing in Madrid you were winning normally Atletico Madrid was close and sometimes tragic but you

You used to win and then you go and you play against Barcelona, Sevilla, Atleti Bilbao, they have good teams, but still we won the under-19s twice the cup and won the league in three years, so we could do it because we had very good players. So with very good players, you could do what you wanted. That is the difference. I want to play like that. I remember one of the coaches in the under-14s

He told me, oh, I will start playing the Sonal game now. What do you think? Can you come and see me and then tell me something? Yeah, OK, I can go. And then I went to see the game.

And after the game, he told me, oh, how we did it? You did fine. You won 7-0. They couldn't pass the half line. So this is the difference between that and playing Sonal or the man-to-man. It doesn't matter. You are so good. So when you have very good players, you can decide your tactics because it's very easy. I was going to say, in Real Madrid at this time, though, it would be more the tiki-taka style. And were you doing something? No, no, no. Real Madrid never has been a tiki-taka team until now.

later on two or three years but after Real Madrid used to be very competitive I would say very pragmatic and they could play well because they have very good players and they wouldn't have been playing a Saki style pressing game and you would have something different in the youth team that the first team would play you were a bit like a rogue operator at Real Madrid no you didn't have Del Bosque when I was talking with him about that

The organisation of the training session is 20 minutes you were doing the warm-up normally with the ball, 20 minutes on tactics and 20 minutes of football. We were training in half-pitch sand, not full-pitch grass. So in Madrid we have 14 teams and we have half-pitch and sand. I was going early

So I was telling my players, come early so we can train against the wall. We're coming half an hour early because they have to go to the school. So if you can come early, come early. So then after we have the pitch at five, then we started already because we have the warm-up done outside. We started already and we finished in one hour and a half.

and another thing was coming so we have to go outside and we were stretching outside so to be sure that we could maximize half of the pitch that we had and we could train in grass once a week normally Thursdays every 15 days one game

And it was raining, it was cancelled. So we had to play. I love this. This is the biggest club in the world. Yeah, this time it was a bit louder. Now it's a massive training ground. But they didn't mind you doing something tactically. You're almost experimenting tactically with the kids. No, the reality is they didn't have this structure. That was Barcelona. When Johan Cruyff went to Barcelona, he started with the system. They were playing three games.

at the back and a diamond and then the three wingers so Koeman was in the first team Koeman with Juan Carlos or with Xavi Ferrer or I don't remember the other fullback Sergi so they were playing like that and all the teams they have to play like that but then Rijkaard when Rijkaard came they played 4-3-3 so they changed the formation to play 4-3-3 and all the teams they have to play like that

When we were in charge of the academy at Liverpool, we brought Pep Segura and Frank McFarlane as academy director. Pep Segura was coming from the Barcelona style and with Rodolfo Borrell, that was in Manchester City and now he's in MLS. So to implement a system, a way to train, a methodology that will allow us to bring players like Alexander-Arnold, that was a young player at this time. So you have to... I was asking him,

Why do you play with this system, all the teams? Because if you have Messi, no, we have to adapt, fine. But that is the way that they play. And they produce players like Guardiola, Luis Milla, Busquets. Yeah, but when they go outside Barcelona...

They need time to adapt and sometimes they are not good enough. He said, I don't care. We are producing players for Barcelona. If they go to another team in Spain and they don't adapt, it's not our problem. We are producing our own style and our own players.

It's fine, but he didn't answer, if you have Messi, what would you do? Would you change this? So it's what they had. They have players like Messi that were making the difference. Well, people might not appreciate you in this time because you think, well, you're the Real Madrid youth team coach, under-19s, that seems quite prestigious. But I think...

you were working in a gym part-time as a gym instructor. Maybe this was before you were a teacher, weren't you, with the nuns in a Catholic school? There were different jobs you were having to do to make... I have a degree in physical education, so...

When I was playing, I was a professor or a PE teacher in a public school and after in a Catholic school. You shocked the nuns, didn't you? Yeah. You surprised the nuns by letting the kids... Yeah, I was on the floor. We were playing d'Artagnan and then they were killing me, the girls, and then I was on the floor and the boys were around and she was...

what are you doing there? No, they killed me so I'm here in the middle of it. I know for those teaching stuff. I was, three years I was working as a PE teacher and then I was one year in a gym with bodybuilders that they could see me and say, I will tell you another story. I was working and then there was two bodybuilders doing press, bench press and they wanted to change the disc

And they couldn't. They cannot. But they were not listening to me because they could see my arms and then they were big. He doesn't have any clue. Then they were asking me, what can we do?

And I was trying, I couldn't. Then I went to the toilet, I put some soap with water, and then I put in the bar, and then I moved the bar. And I was, oh, they were impressed. And after this day, they were listening to me. But I have a lot of magazines that I was reading about Schwarzenegger and how they were training and then all these kind of things. Obviously, I was a professor in the school. Then I was...

a professor in the gym, and after I was technical director. And at this time, Real Madrid made me a professional. So when Real Madrid gave me the professional contract, then, no, I continued one year, and I have two coordinators, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. I was going to have lunch and training, have lunch and then training in the afternoon because for three months, I was training in the morning with the reserve team as assistant coach of Garcia Ramon.

In the afternoon, every day I was coaching my team. On Monday, I was coaching the reserves of the youth teams. And on Saturday, I was traveling to watch the opponent of the reserve team or with my team to play. So for three months, I was...

every single day coaching training watching games because I couldn't do I was single and I couldn't do another thing but you you did meet your wife in the gym didn't you I met my wife in the gym and then after a few months so we started

going, she didn't know about football, she didn't like too much football, but little by little she was learning about it. I'm not surprised you had to meet her in a gym, given you've just given her a tough time. I didn't have to, I told her, you have to give me some days off. He gave me a Monday off in the evening, that was the only thing. He's very kind to you then. But Vincente Del Bosque has been a very important influence in your career, hasn't he? Because I think

Is that how you got your first or your early jobs that he helped recommend you? No, not really. So at this time I was maybe, let's say, if I say that, but the most successful young coach in the academy. So we were progressing. And thanks to Ramon Martínez, that was later on the director of football, Del Bosque was the coordinator. And after they put Ramon Martínez as director of football, he told me,

Camacho was in the under-19s and Camacho has to go as assistant of Di Stefano in the first team and then he told me are you brave enough to take the under-19s yeah and then I took the under-19s and we won two two cups that was really important and one league so that was the moment that they promoted me to the Castilla

Which is the second team. The second team, yeah. But they play in... Second division. It's like having a championship side, isn't it? It's not like the reserves in England. People are asking me about the difference and why Spanish football is so successful. And one of the keys is because at this time, and now they can, but these teams, they could play in the championship. So you could have the best players, Butragueño, Mitchell, playing in the championship against men,

and they were 19 years old, 20 years old. And normally we finish sixth and we finish eighth. So it's not that, oh, you were struggling and then you were suffering because you had quality. You don't have the strength, but you have quality. And then these players, they were progressing, they were learning, and they were playing at international level. And that is one of the reasons. Spain is successful because the methodology of the system, the coaches are quite good.

And then you have talent because we play in the streets all the time. We were used to playing in the streets all the time. And because of this competition, the championship or the Ligue 1 competition for the reserve team is massive because you play against men. And then you are learning and learning all the time. And you were playing zonal marking with Castillo? So we started with the under-17s.

So I was four years with the under-16s and then they promoted me to the under-17s, 18s and the 19s. It was always Sonal Markin everywhere and then Prez in. Was anyone objecting? Like where the first team coach is saying, what are you doing? Or was anyone questioning where people come to watch you? Go, what is Benitez doing? What kind of madness is this? I was assistant of Radomir Antic when he has to go to the precision in Udine.

And they took me as a fitness coach in theory, but after they signed a fitness coach, I was an assistant. And we were talking about sonar marking. The difference that they were using the liberal and they said it's not sonar marking, proper sonar marking, but still that was the way. And little by little, everybody was doing the same in Spain. We've just done an episode on Arrigo Saki and we think he's...

probably the defining force at this time. Was that the moment, was it Saki, was it your own ideas that kind of changed your outlook on football? Do you think that is a defining moment when Saki's AC Milan are showing how Zonal Markings should be played? Yeah, I think you don't remember exactly the moment, but I was following AC Milan. I liked it. I went to Milanello. So I liked the way that they were playing, the intensity. And I was...

I was here in the video. When I was watching the video, I was here when Baresi was shouting and when he put his arm up. And I was taking note of every single detail that I could see to be sure that there was something that they were doing always, not depending on one moment. Then after I was asking, obviously, Arrigo, I was asking Capello, and then I said Maturana, Ranieri. So I was going there to Italy to...

talk with them to take notes I have a lot of and then the school of coaches in Italy is in Florence for you is a cover channel and I used to go all the time I was going to the library and then taking some magazines and taking those photocopies I was a friend of a member of the staff and then I was hiding the magazines and taking hundreds of photocopies and then exercises and everything and I was I had my own software so I have my own software and

that I was doing a long, long time ago. It was before Windows, it was Visual Basic, after it was Windows. And then I was using exercises and then collecting a database of exercises and videos and clips. And I have 1,500 videos, VHS, with two or three games each one in the penthouse of my parents. And then they have an access database and I was checking everything.

and I have my own two video recorders and then put the OHS and then was copying from one to the other one, creating the CDs or DVDs and putting the codes when we were going to play. And my place... But they enjoyed it because we were winning. So we were winning. And then the people, when they are winning, they say, oh, that is fine. So the software was the database? That was what you were using the software for? It was... For example, I was...

We can talk about Istanbul 2005 or the FA Cup with West Ham. I was watching the penalties in every game. Any game that I was watching, it was a penalty I was taking note. So I played in South America. In Spain at this time, you have a lot of oriundos coming. They were taking penalties and then I was taking notes and putting the database. So I knew where they were taking the penalties. And that is massive. I don't know if you have taken any penalty in your life, but you don't take penalties in a team. You have one or two specialists.

So the others, they don't take penalties. When you go to the final and you have five, we knew already that four of them were taking the penalty to this side or the other side. So the goal for me is one, two, three, four, five, six. So you are telling your keeper,

zone six, zone three. So he knows. And then he goes to this side. He dies to this side. He has 80% of chances to save. And this is very innovative at the time. Of course, now we're used to Jordan Pickford having all the data on his drink bottle and these kind of things with lots of technicians analysing it. But you're doing this, what, 20, 30 years ago? I was a little bit crazy at this time. A little bit, I think. Yeah, yeah. Do you think you have to be obsessed with your management? I was...

You think about, I was using the computer and then my boss at this time, Miguel Malbot, that was before Raúl Martínez, he was a young coach and they were winning. And then I was using the computer. I was the only one using the computer, doing the report with the computer, with the matricial printer and all these things. Not ink, matricial, that was before. But they were, one day he called me and said, listen,

the computer cannot score goals. So why are you using the computer? I said, yeah, it's helping me to manage the information. So I think that it's nothing to do with the way that we play. And we were, at this time, we scored 119 goals and we conceded 18 goals. This is for the Real Madrid Castillo team? Yeah, no, in the youth teams. And he was telling me, oh, why are you using the computer? And we were top of the league with 10 points ahead with so many goals.

And still he was, hmm, you are using the computer. So they didn't used to do it. And later on, obviously, everybody was using that. I mean, penalties, it's quite easy to record what happens. It's the most simple set piece you can have.

So what other sort of data did you have and how were you able to...

then you have to see for me patterns you see patterns right side 15 minutes and after 15 minutes you change after 15 minutes another one and another one was analysing the shots and then another one was analysing the tackles so then you have a group of students from the university and then after we put everything together and we have the whole game so that was the way and for me

I had, what they say, two videos, VHS. And I was with Claudia, my older daughter, with the bottle. I put the bottle at one in the morning or four in the morning, the second bottle. Put the bottle and I have the remote here and the videos are ready. And I was just at that. And then collecting the clips that you have to prepare later on. So you were copying from one video. I was telling you the other day, I realized that you have to bring young people, your staff,

to be sure that you are updated then I have an analyst that is 30 years old now he said listen these things that we are doing now with one click and then you have a corner it was a time when Benito Flores was the coach of Real Madrid there was seven video recorders seven together coming from the United States there was a

innovation, then just click corners here and throw-ins here and shots here. So with seven videos all together naturally there. So I remember this kind of thing. So when people say, oh, technology, we used to do that. And now we are working with the big data and with artificial intelligence. I was asking Chad GPT-4 the other day, which are the best players that I was coaching,

And he always gave me, obviously, Gerard, Ronaldo. But after he gave me David Villa and Mohamed Salah. I didn't coach them. So chat GPT, still they have to learn. They are learning, they are great, but still they have to learn a little bit. We hope you're enjoying the show. If you've got any thoughts on this episode or any stories from football history you want us to cover, follow us and leave a message at atitwaspod. That's atitwaspod.com.

Smiling

and fireworks. I feel like everyone got a lot off the chest there. Catch Stick to Football every week wherever you get your podcasts. In terms of the actual drills you're using, the training sessions, for getting shape right and things like that, did they change much over your career or was what you were doing with Real Madrid's youth team similar to what you were using? No, I had a conversation with my fitness coach the other day with Paco. So I have my own software. My software has a database of players, your team,

the opponents and the exercises and training sessions. So what we do is we link everything and then we have the exercises with the videos and then your own training sessions or another video that you can see and everything is in the database and then you have Power BI that we put everything together. So we have seen that the

So we have around 400 exercises in the database now. You can have maybe 1,000 if you want, but the reality is that these around 400 exercises, you are using around 20% of them. The others, you don't use them too much. And using more than seven times is just this 20%. Why? Because they are the most important exercises. So you can talk about modern football, this or that, but...

Running behind defenders, 1v1, wall passes, press when you give the ball away. These are the principles. That's it. And you repeat and repeat. You can change the name, but you repeat and you can say counter-pressing. We were pressing when we were attacking, giving the ball away. We were pressing and regaining the ball. So when I was in Liverpool, we were talking about five, six passes and we have to regain the ball. So these kind of things, you have been doing that for years now.

Now they are changing. The main change has been the rule when you play. In the past, you could play with the keeper. He could catch the ball with his hands. Changed a lot. But now in the modern football, when you play in the box, the goal kicks, you play short. And in the past, you couldn't be in the box. So what means that? Teams are now doing that and the other teams are pressing. So we did...

the analysis of the Euros with UEFA the other day and then I have to do a talk about middle block and we were talking about high pressing so you regain the ball around 46% of the time when you press high 29% when you have a middle block

Then you can say, oh, that is much better. Why? Because the teams are playing short and then they allow you to go and press high. But when you press high, you can see, and then the example is Bayern Leverkusen against Atalanta in the final of the Europa League. The teams are doing more man-to-man. So why? Because they want to press high. And if you want to press high, they have an extra player that is the keeper.

So you need an extra player to press high. That means that you're taking a risk in defence. You play three against three, four against four. Watching some games yesterday, you could see that all the time. So that's changed a lot because the teams, to do a proper pressing, if they don't have the trigger and they don't work on how to move the team, they have to go man-to-man.

And then they are more aggressive, man-to-man. And Atalanta is an example against Leverkusen. Leverkusen wanted to play Xavi. I know because a friend of mine was watching some training session. No, keep playing. He's telling them, keep playing. And then the others are on top, very aggressive, physically very strong. What means that? It means that they realise now...

that if you play short, they will come and they will press. So you play short and then you play long. And then we have seen a lot of games that you have the winger against the fullback 1v1 or the centre-back against the striker 1v1. It changes the style. But it's more long balls and second balls than before because everybody wants to play short, they go press. And when they play short, you lose around 57% of the balls.

And you concede 2% of the goals and they create 10% of chances. That is a study that we were doing at this time. So you can give numbers and people talk about numbers, but they have to analyze the game and the principles of the games are the same. So you need people running in behind, you need superiority in the wide areas, people that can play 1v1, 2v1. If you are not

great, you need help, 2v1, and defending is the same. They forget about now defending because it's not more than play and they want to attack. But who is winning the trophies? The same teams, the team with better players because it's man-to-man, the best players, they will win. You don't need as a coach, you don't need to do anything. If you see a corner, we can talk about Sonnar Markkinen in corners, if you see a corner in the past, a free header, and what the camera is doing? They follow the player, the defender, oh, he made a mistake, he lost his man.

If it's Sonal Markin, they go to the coach. Oh, you know, Sonal Markin is the manager. But it's exactly the same. It's a mistake because you are not doing the principles right. So you cannot be blocked. Or if it's Sonal Markin, yesterday I was watching one of the goals. You have to attack the ball and you have to be in movement. Then it's not that...

the solar marking is right or wrong is that the players are not doing right what they have to do. Rafa, you've brought us right up to the modern day but I want to take you back again 30 years, okay? Because you're doing really well at Real Madrid and you're winning these competitions.

and you get your first break in management at Ballardolid and then at Osasunia and they both are real failures you know you get sacked very quickly do you think at this stage I'm still going to be a coach? No not really it's very difficult we will need maybe another programme to explain that

It was the time that they did the Spanish League 22 teams. And that is a massive difference. So at this time, Sevilla and Celta, they didn't pay and they were relegated. Financial issues. So I left Castilla and I went to Valladolid in second division, championship. Yeah.

So you're preparing for a championship season? I signed four or five of my young players from Castilla and we have a young team, good team in the championship. So it was relegated and with Albacete and we were in the championship. And the 15th of August, I was having a nap in San Rafael that is in Segovia quite warm and we have a training session in the afternoon.

And the league was starting the 2nd of September at this time. So the 15th of August, the TV was down, waiting in the hotel. Listen, you are in first division again. What? So this is very Spanish to leave things to the last minute, isn't it? No, it's because it was riots and the fans of Celta de Vigo and Sevilla, they were in the street, blah, blah, blah. And the government panicked. And the government said, OK...

Albacete and Valladolid, they were promoted instead of them. And now we have to bring these two and the league was 22 teams instead of 20. So I understand that, but even so, did it not dent your confidence that you...

I was fired. You won two in 23, I think, didn't you, in that? Yeah. No, that was... He was a very, very young team in the first division. And, OK, we played well. But it's your first job. If your first job goes badly... First job outside Real Madrid, they were protecting you. The team was playing well, but a lot of young players and, OK, we couldn't win too many games. Fine, we did well, but I was fine. And then I went to Osasuna. The problem with Osasuna is that I was three teams promoted normally...

And then when I was there, one week before, I'm telling you, one week, Monday, we have a dinner and the board, we started on Sunday. Oh, we have to do something. We have to sign players. Why? Because they will change the rules to be sure that they reduce the 22 to 20 instead of three. Next year, they will promote just two. So we have to promote this year. Yeah, but we have a team with academy players.

And they came to England and they signed Freitas, the Freitas that was playing for Fulham and Pollock, Jamie Pollock, that was playing for Manchester City. That was on Thursday and we were starting the league on Sunday. So it was very difficult then. And again, they fired me because he was a young coach without experience. And then my agent at this time, he told me, it will be very difficult for you. I said, listen,

I will succeed. So don't be worried. I will continue. Where did that confidence come from? Because I knew my level. So I was working so much. You said before that I was a little bit crazy. Yes. I was always football and then until I met Monce, but my target was football and learn and then be sure that I was winning every competition and everything. So I was...

about that and I had so much confidence that I could do it then I was waiting and then I went to Extremadura that was a small team that was relegated and then we promoted and that was a really achievement because the team was not great and then we promoted and that was the difficult thing because after obviously it's a very very small city and then you know you cannot keep the level and people are starting to take note of the fact that you're playing zonal marking are other coaches in Spain playing zonal marking or are you unique? No when I started no

there were not too many and after little by little yeah they were playing Ligio for example that you have Ligio as an assistant of Guardiola is the little one that is down close to him he was coaching Salamanca it was not like us but they were more or less they started with the Sonal Martin already yeah but I mean were journalists were the TV programs were they saying Benitez is doing something unusual and different here yeah but at this time everybody was talking about AC Milan and then they could see that but nobody was

Paying too much attention to Castilla, that was a second division team. They were watching more, you are journalists, so you know, they don't see, they don't analyse, and especially in England, tactically. In Spain, they were also watching, oh, Michel, oh, Butregueño, so they could see players more than just the system and how you do that. And you get Tenerife promoted again after ExxonMajor. So now you are beginning to appear, I guess, in the mainstream of...

Spanish clubs they're noticing you and how does the Valencia job come about because that still seems like a big jump Tenerife was a really nice season because we played very good football we had

We had Mista on loan from Valencia. Luis Garcia was there. So we had two or three good players. Dani was playing on the right. That was ex-Atletico de Madrid. We played very, very good football with a lot of crosses, overlaps. And then people were enjoying watching us. But that was the most difficult championship ever in Spain because you have Betis, Sevilla and Atletico de Madrid.

So we have to fight against them. And it was, it will be too long to explain how, because we have a problem with the passport of our striker. And it's still, okay, we promoted. And as you say, teams were watching you. And then Valencia was trying to sign a coach and they couldn't, and another coach and they couldn't. And they told me,

In a plane, the chief executive was talking with someone. He said, listen, there is a coach in Tenerife that was in Madrid, blah, blah, blah. Then he was talking with a couple of directors in Madrid and also one in Extremadura. They were telling him, oh, he's a great coach. And then he was talking with the director of football, Javier Subirats,

that we beat them with Real Madrid in the Trofeo Califas in Córdoba when he was coaching Valencia in the 19s. We beat him with Real Madrid and we won the trophy and we were really good. My team at this time, we won the double and it was a very, very good team. So we played nice football, we scored a lot of goals, we didn't concede, we played son of marking, very aggressive football

And then we played against them. So he remembered me. And then when they had two or three people talking well, then they came. But you were the third or fourth choice, were you? Yeah, I was a young coach and they were thinking about big names. Valencia is a big club, maybe the third, fourth biggest club in Spain. Yeah, it was at this time Villarreal, Deportivo, obviously Atletico Madrid, Madrid and Barcelona. But maybe they were fourth, fifth at this time.

And then the point is that they came for me and when they were asking me, my agent asking me about my salary, he said, listen, I don't care about the salary. So they gave me a small salary and then it was fine. And this, when you see this quote, when you got the job here, so you can tell me if this is correct. You said at your first press conference, because Valencia had just been in two Champions League finals when you took Hector Cooper's team. So it's a big job and they're a big team. And you said you

you come from the Champions League final, I come from La Segunda, the second division, but humbly, I have tools to help you. Where does that come from? You don't remember that quote? No, I don't think that I said that. What I am telling you, and you will like this one,

You know my surname is Benitez, obviously. But you don't know, there was a very, very famous bullfighter in Spain that was Benitez del Cordobés from Córdoba. His son later on was a famous bullfighter, but he was really famous. He was very famous because he was very brave. When the bull is coming outside, that is when he has full power, it's really dangerous. And he was on his knees waiting and the bull was coming and then...

So he was famous because he was very close to the Bulls. So anyway, he was a very, very famous Bullfighter. Then Valencia has seven members of the Bull, three of the opposition in the Bull. And then one of them said, oh, we are signing a Bullfighter or a coach. He said that. This director, he was close to me in the picture when we won the league. He was close to me of...

with the cup with the La Liga you really didn't know who you were when you got there it was just because it was the opposition so they were fighting each other and he was with the former president and so we signed a bullfight everyone wants to be in the pictures when you won a cup but

Again, I think this is true also at Liverpool. You don't start particularly well. I think there's a moment in 2001 when you're 2-0 down at Espanyol. No, that's wrong. Is that wrong? Yeah, it's wrong because it's true that they say, oh, against Espanyol, you could be fired, blah, blah, blah. But I think we have 13 games and we won six and we drew seven. So we were unbeaten, but...

It's Valencia. Valencia fans, they push and they want it to be there. So you're 2-0 down against Espanyol though. That is true, yeah? That's correct. At half-time. And everyone's saying you're going to be sacked.

No, I didn't. No, I made the substitutions at halftime and we won 2-3. My assistant said that he was in the stands with the directors and they disappeared. So everybody disappeared and he was on his own. And then they said, oh yeah, maybe they will fire you. But OK, we won and that's it. And we won because we made the substitutions and then everything changed. And you won La Liga that season. In January, we were seven points behind Real Madrid.

I told Canizares, Ayala, Pellegrino, the senior players, I said, listen, we will win the league. And they were thinking, oh, he's crazy. Yeah, because I knew... He's crazy, though. No, because I knew the way that they were training, they were working, and they have Roberto Carlos, Figo, Raul, top, top players. This is Real Madrid, of course. Real Madrid, Ronaldo, the other one.

But we were a team. We were very compact, very aggressive, very competitive. We were doing the rotation so I could change players and we kept the level very high. So I was confident that we could compete. So, let's say, to win the league, to give them more confidence. But we finished, I think, seven points ahead of Real Madrid. So it's not that we were not doing... You made a 15-point margin. Yeah, yeah. We were pushing and pushing and we were...

The team was very solid, very competitive. We lost from the team that won the final. We lost Mendieta the second day. He went to Lazio and then Piojo López from that. He was the main player with his pace. But then we brought Mista that was top scorer coming from Tenerife with me. So we had some Currotores that was another player on loan. He was coming with me.

Players that didn't have the level, that they were very hard workers and some of them with quality. Vicente, that played for Brighton. Vicente was really, really good at this time with Kili. Then we have Ayala, Pellegrino, Jukic, Carboni. Afterwards, Fabio Aurelio, that came with me for Liverpool. A good team, Ruffete, Angulo. So I could change players in the middle. Abel, Navarraja, Marchena, you could change players.

And you didn't have any issue, any problem, because they gave you the level. Even Sissoko, that signed for Liverpool, we signed him. He was coming from Oceania for the position because it was the compromise of the director of football. He said, you have to bring this young player as a striker. And we put him as a striker. He was not a striker. If you remember Sissoko in Liverpool. Then we made the substitution. It was a friendly in Switzerland. We made the substitutions and then we have an injury.

And then we have 11 substitutions and then it was a friendly. Okay, the young lad, come on, play as a midfielder. And we put him as a midfielder and he was amazing. He was amazing. And then after he made that career as a midfielder. So the shape is, what, 4-4-2 at this point? I used to play 4-2-3-1 with Aymar behind Mista or John Cario when I had John Cario. So Aymar behind and then Rufete and Gulo on the right and Vicente O'Keeley on the left. And in the middle was Albelda Baraja. Baraja was injured and then he came back

after January and then he scored seven goals and then it was a crucial play because it was a 4-2-3-1 but Aimar was a

light weight player with quality moving around and Baraja was getting into the box Baraja was Gerard Lampard style getting into the box not as quick but he was very good with the timing and then it was 4-2-3-1 with the overlappings of the full backs and keeping the balance So those principles of keeping it compact short, narrow and very aggressive so for example when I came to England and

So we had our way to press and when you have to press. And normally you press against a full back. Why? Because it's in the wide areas. You press in the middle, they can play to the right, they can play to the left. But if it's on the right or on the left, then they only have one option, it's to go inside. So when you, or parallel obviously, no? When you go there, that is the trigger. If it's a long pass or it's all bouncing, it's a bad pass, bad control, thing like that.

But when you came to England, when we just arrived with Liverpool, we're going to press and then they were passing the ball to the keeper and the keeper was kicking the ball to the other box. So then you have to go back when you play against things like Bolton at this time. So, and it was, you have to adapt at the beginning. That is the reason why people, they don't realise when you go to another country with another style of football, you have to adapt.

and then you start signing players that after they don't understand the way so you have to learn little by little and then you will make less mistakes. The teams in Spain wouldn't go back to the keeper to play long ever? That was just not something they ever... Not normally. No,

Not too much. Not too much. At this time, yeah. At this time, yeah. What have Real Madrid said? What have Barcelona said? I mean, it's really unheard of in this modern era to challenge that duopoly. I know Atleti have done it a couple of times recently, but I think you're the last team to do it consistently. I mean, the Real Madrid side, they've got Casillas, Zidane, Fico, Roberto Carlos, Raul. I know they're doing well in the Champions League, but they're not winning La Liga. And Barcelona have Clive Urt and Overmars.

And you come along with all these players who we now know are brilliant players, but weren't names like that. And you're winning La Liga. Because we were a team, is what I say. So we have the belief, the way that we were training, we were controlling the physical data. We have very good control with Paco Yesterano at this time. Paco is your fitness coach, isn't he? That was my fitness coach and afterwards my assistant in Liverpool. Ocho Torena, that was my teammate when we were in the Academy of Real Madrid.

He was the goalkeeping coach and with the national team, he won the World Cup with Spain and the Euro. So then we have good staff.

Good players, good young players, because of what I say. So people, we talk about Ayala, that was good, Pellegrino, Ojukic, Carboni, but Fabiorello was after an addition. It was really good. Vicente was very, very good. And then Rufeta. So people, they were hard workers and they follow instructions and they were believing. Because the way that I like to coach is to teach them, not just to tell them what they have to do. It's just to make them think. So they were thinking,

We have to do this because this because that. And then they were learning. And then we play against Real Madrid, for example. Against Real Madrid, what do you have to do at this time?

go behind Roberto Carlos. Why? Because Roberto Carlos was so offensive and he was going forward all the time. So you have to create your game plan is, OK, he will come, you have to cover here. And if we regain the ball, we have to attack this space behind Roberto Carlos. So in this period, do you think, in your mind, do you think the team will always beat the Galacticos? So Real Madrid are a team of individuals, really, aren't they? I know your great mentor Del Bosco is coaching them, but really it's let's rely on individuals.

and you're showing Spain something different or actually the team can beat these Galacticos? Yeah, we were using the rotation that was not very common. Even losing games in the final, but listen, it's a long-term plan. So we have to manage the players because we're playing Champions League or UEFA Cup at this time and then it's too demanding and South American players that they were calling and coming back. So

They have to understand that we needed to rotate and they did it. And we have high intensity, so we keep all the players physically fit. Tactically, we knew how to...

how to play our game and how to damage the other teams because we knew, okay, they do that, we can do this, that, that. Without changing too much our way to play, but we could add that to different teams. We could play deep, we could play three quarters or we could press very high. We play against Celtic in the UEFA Cup and we have the defensive life of 52 metres. That is half of the pitch.

And against Ajax, also, we have 52 metres. So on the halfway line, your back four is... The average. The average. So actually, they're pushing into the opposite half. Yeah, we were there and we had maybe 35 attempts. So we could do that. And at the same time, we could be deep, waiting and then running behind. Or normally, like at three quarters, stay there. How many teams are high pressing like that, do you think, in this area?

Did you notice that? In Spain or in Europe? In Europe, yeah. You can go to AC Milan or some of these teams, maybe Bayern. So the teams that were much better than the others, they could press high because they have plenty of possession like is happening now. But the way that we were doing, not too many. And obviously after, it's like me, I was watching Arrigo Saki and then Joe, I will try to do this or that.

They were copying the Valencia style. So we won the league after 31 years without winning. But losing players like, say, Mendieta, that was a very important player for Valencia, or Piojo López. So we were changing players, bringing players without... So we have players coming from the academy. I remember, and I will not say the name, but there was an average player that was a right-foot back. And we put him as a left-foot back even, and we were winning. So the last game that we played against...

in Sevilla I play Chisco Chisco was the coach of Watford he was playing there and he was not the starter so Vicente was the starter and you could play Chisco you could play anyone and the team was performing because it was a team the point you made a little while ago about not just telling him what to do but teaching him how to think so you're sort of the idea is you you you

get the mindset in the players correct so that when the situation occurs they make the right decisions so I said before that I was a PE teacher and then when you study methodology you can say you give orders and they follow orders or you can tell them listen you can do this come on start doing then you give them a task and they start doing whatever or you are asking questions okay we can do that and

They are doing this. Imagine that. Oh, they are overlapping and they have two players. Okay, tell me. What can you do? We have to do this. Yeah, but if you do this, maybe it will happen. So you are giving them some clues or you are asking questions and after you go to the video. So after you go to... Look.

this, that, that. Then you go to the pitch, then you practice on the pitch and again you go to the video. So when you repeat and repeat all these kind of things, then at the end they understand. And the difference is also that we were working with the team and the players that they were not playing, normally when you play two competitions, two games a week,

The substitutes, they don't practice. So sometimes you run after the game in the stadium, but it's not the same. So we used to train these players. And with the rotation system, everybody has training sessions before and after that. They are light training sessions doing the same things. So everybody knew exactly what they have to do. And also because we're doing tactical runs that they were together, they knew what the teammate has to do.

So it's not that you change a player. Oh, I don't know what I have to do in this position. So they were learning and I was asking questions. So if they do this, what can we do? So I think Cara, one of your podcasts was talking about that. I was asking, we can play at home. Can we play deep? Can we play high? Normally it's, oh, we are much better high. The other team is much better. Okay, drop off a little bit, be protected. It's fine, three quarters. So you are making the players think about that

And then they follow the plan. But are there some players who need to be told what to do, who can't sort of make it? Yeah, you have 25 players in a squad. You have 11 players on the pitch. Some of them, the ones that they make the difference, they understand the game and they know. So normally these are the players that you use to pass the message. So, oh, they are attacking, we have to control this. So you are telling them and they pass the message.

When I was a player, I was a talker. So you always had someone, normally it's a midfielder, normally it's a centre-back because they have the vision of the full pitch. They can pass the message. So then you are telling them if you need to adapt something. Obviously, you told me before, you were telling me when you are at the top, in the stands, you can see with a tactical view when you are on the bench,

Sometimes the bench in Spain, they were at the level of the grass. So you can see legs. Then you have to understand how to read the game from this position. But you are on the pitch.

A lot of players, they play, but they don't understand what is going on around. So you have to give them tools to learn and to be sure that if something is happening and you make an order, they know, oh, they know because they have the talent and they decide on their own. And is it the players who are best at that who tend to become the best managers afterwards? Yes and no. Yes, because they have the tools to

to understand and then they can pass the message so for instance with Xavi Alonso really good at that yeah Xavi is an example of Mascherano is a holding midfielder so they understand what is going on and obviously they have had a lot of good managers in their careers and then they know but after there are so many things around that it's not just to know

you can be great as a player and maybe you don't, you were so good that you didn't need to think too much because it was natural for you or you have, you are someone that analyze things but after you cannot manage the press or you cannot manage the press, the fans or even the players or all of the problems that if the players are very good, very famous and the fans, the press, the directors, they love them

If they are good professionals, you have a winning and competitive team. If they are not good professionals...

You have a very good players and it depends on them that you can win or not. You have a problem. So in your story, you win La Liga in 2002, you win it in 2004 again, this is extraordinary, in Spain, and you win the UEFA Cup that year. And now everybody is noticing in Europe because this is when Liverpool starts. I have four offers at this time, four teams, and one of them was obviously Liverpool and was quite serious.

So then the way that they approached... Another English side, I believe, at that time? Yeah, it was another one, yeah. Was it Tottenham?

I didn't say you are, but it's not important at this time. It's not important. We were talking about it a long time ago, but there was the six-tack Inter, Tottenham and Liverpool. But when I say offers interest, and then they were talking with my agent, and that's it. But the most serious for me and the most exciting was Liverpool. I was studying French in the school, but learning English with the Beatles. So with the LP Red and Blue and then things like that.

And the history... And is that because of the 1970s and the 80s? Obviously, every European kid who's obsessed with football... Yeah, no. When Liverpool beat Real Madrid 1-0, the keeper was Agustin. That was my keeper when I was a player. And it was the Real Madrid of the Garcias, García Cortés, García...

Pérez García García Ramón and there was García Navajas and there was another and García Hernández they have five Garcías it was Real Madrid with García with El Bosque and Real Madrid beat them 1-0 I was watching that so I was watching Liverpool and then the Passamove so you have this and I came to England part of my journey when I was learning I came to England and

When Ardiles was in Tottenham, I was watching them training, the first team and also the reserve team. And I went to watch also West Ham.

And I would say that, but also one week, Manchester United. So I was coming to England, I was going to Italy, so I was trying to learn from everyone a little bit. Thank you for listening to part one of our special episode featuring Rafa Benitez on It Was What It Was. We hope you'll join us next time for the second and final part where Rafa shares how he transformed football at Liverpool, leading the club to historic Champions League and FA Cup victories.

Thanks for listening to It Was What It Was. If you like the podcast, please subscribe. We've got a huge library of stories for you to enjoy on the feed. And if you want to support the show, please leave a five-star review and help others find it too. See you next time. At Leidos, a brilliant mind is smart, but a brilliant team is smarter.

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