Ep. 6: Smallfolk (with Sonoya Mizuno and executive producer Sara Hess)
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We need Daemon and his dragon. May I be free for even one hour of the constant refrain of Daemon, Daemon, Daemon! Your Grace, the Lady Mysaria. My Queen, our gift is sent. What gift?

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Greta Johnson. And I'm Jason Concepcion. Miss Arya always knows what to say. Yes, she does. And Greta, it's time for us small folk to rise up. They're eating sushi in there. They got a taco truck.

It's time to take what's ours. It's time. The people of King's Landing and Jason have had enough, and I totally get it. We're going to get into that and so much more as we unpack the sixth episode of season two, which is titled, of course, Small Folk. It was written by Eileen Shim and directed by Andre Parekh.

And this episode is jam-packed. We'll hear from Ewan Mitchell again about where Eamon's head is at in this episode. And then Sonoya Mizuno, who plays Misaria, joins us. And later, we'll sit down with co-head writer Sarah Hess to talk about Rhaenyra's new grand plan to win the war. But as always, beware, spoilers for episode six are ahead. We are talking about the whole darn thing. So go watch it first and then come back to us. Trust me, watch the whole thing. I have only ever defended you.

And everything I've given you, you've thrown back in my face. Okay, Jason, let's get a quick recap of the episode before we dive in. Sure. We open in the Westerlands where the Lannister army, led by Jason Lannister, is on the move. They arrive at the Golden Tooth, where they're going to await the arrival of Prince Regent Aemond and Vhagar. And in the meantime, they're going to avail themselves of the Golden Tooth's ale.

and food. In King's Landing, Aemond is like, you don't summon me, I summon you, buddy. And it's also very clear that Aemond is already drunk on the power juice because he announces, I am the Prince Regent, and of course, to quote Tywin Lannister, he who has to announce that their king is no real king. Aemond speaks privately with Alicent and basically says, I'm in charge now and don't come to the small council meetings anymore. Also in King's Landing,

Everybody's hungry. Prices are high. There is no food. And people are furious. Eamon does not care. Things certainly look bad for the blacks at this point in time. The black council calls in Sir Stephen Darkland of the Queen's Guard. And Queen Rhaenyra tells him, hey, we checked the books. Looks like you got a little Targaryen in you. Would you like to claim a dragon? And he says there would be no higher honor than to do so. As Steph tries and he gets cooked.

He gets barbecued R.I.P. to Steph Darklin, and he's out at Heron Hall. Bad vibes continue for Damon. Damon's had enough. He's going to fly out of here to go meet the River Lords or maybe just flee the scene like he always does. But Alice waylays him in the godswood and basically says, what, are you running again? Here's what I'm going to do, Damon. Why don't you just sit tight, and maybe things will change, because I have this—

owl that listens to what I say to it.

it. And aren't I a weirdo? And maybe you should listen to me. And Damon's like, OK, I guess I have no other option. So I'll do that. At the end of the episode, Damon wakes up with some news. Lord Grover has passed. Oh, and by the way, Alice was over at Riverrun trying to minister to him, but it just didn't work out. And he and he died in the Vale. Raina goes for a stroll with Prince Joffrey and sees that there's signs that a large dragon has been in the Vale eating sheep.

on Dragonstone. Now that Steph has been completely charred to the bone, Rhaenyra has to figure out what to do next. Mysaria then delivers the queen's gift to King's Landing, which is a good helping of food under the banner of the queen so that all the small fuck know this comes from Rhaenyra and she still loves us.

Alicent and Helena get stuck in the riot. He is in the thick of the riot, punching people in the face for a bag of lettuce. In the aftermath of their successful plot, the Queen bonds with Massaria over their respective relationships with Daemon. And the next thing you know, Rhaenyra and Massaria are making out. But that shocking turn is interrupted by news. Seasmoke is flying around with a rider.

The writer is Adam of Hull, but the Blacks don't know that. Rhaenyra goes to Mount Cyrax and flies out to meet this threat. Jason, I fear you glossed over the makeout session. Well, we're going to talk about it. We're going to dive into it in the conversation. But yes, there's a makeout session. And had our bingo square not already been checked off, I mean, can we check it? Let's check it off again. It's another check mark. Check it off twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. ♪

Okay, so yes, as always, a lot to talk about with this episode. Let's start with Aemond as ruler, because this is kind of our first full episode with him as Prince Regent, and I would love to get into it. He dares to summon me with haste. The Lannisters so diminished that they cannot march from the Tooth to Harrenhal without an escort. There is a large dragon in the Riverlands, Your Grace. My brother's army is strong, but it does seem to surprise me. I am the Prince Regent, not a dog to be called to heel.

Tell your brother that if he does not deliver his host to Harrenhal with haste, Daemon's dragon will become the least of his worries. Aemond's not really a collaborative guy. No, no, that's true. That's very true. I love, I feel like his voice is getting grittier. Listen, if your voice is getting gritty because you're yelling at your underlings and also you're like crushing letters and like balling them up and throwing them on the ground, I think...

that you need to get a grip. Maybe take a five-minute break. I think this is... We think of Rook's Rest as a victory. Certainly the Greens want to frame it that way. But I think...

you know, stepping back, it's clear that Amon is under pressure now. He's feeling pressure. The Vale and the North clearly have gone over to the Blacks, are not responding to them. The blockade continues to be enforced to the point that Amon is like, I don't know, we go with the triarchy. They don't,

can't be trusted, but what other choice? We don't have another fleet at hand to break this thing. Yeah. Damon is in Harrenhal, apparently gathering an army, unchecked, right? That would be a huge army right on their doorstep. Uh-huh. The Lannisters aren't here yet. Otto isn't here yet with their armies. And though they just won this battle

Also, just like a quick note for Jason Lannister on the march at the head of a great host of Westermen. Oh, yeah. We don't need the lion. Oh.

We don't get a dragon. You might as well bring a lion. We're on the March. All these guys are probably starving and they're throwing meat into the dragon, into the lion cage. Yeah.

We don't need the lion, Jason. Don't bring the mascots. Leave the mascots at home. Oh, my God. So, yeah, when Eamon mentions the idea of teaming up with the triarchy, everyone at the small council seems pretty shocked by that idea. Can you outline that plan and why everyone's like, oh, my God, what the hell? Because if you invite them in...

They're not going to leave and they're not, you know, invite them into what end? You're going to have to give them something. It's a shady alliance. You're going to have to say, how about trading rights in the narrow sea or how about like a, you know, lowering of tariffs or something like that? You have to pay them off somehow. And also they're not sworn to you.

They're just an independent operator that is out for their best interest. They're pirates. Yeah, they're pirates, essentially. And to invite them in after a long and costly war that you fought to eject them from the Stepstones... Which is what we saw in season one. Right, is clearly short-sighted. But again, I think Amon is...

is feeling pressure and he's feeling like, you know, what was the outcome of Rook's Rest was supposed to be? You take down a dragon, then we march to Harrenhal. The army was shattered. You weren't able to do that. Plus you lost the king. And this blockade is still out there. And so Aemon decides to go with this, which is clearly a short term decision. Right. Right.

The one thing I kept finding myself thinking about, though, is, I mean, obviously the episode is called Small Folk. We are seeing a lot of small folk in this episode. They are hungry. They are angry. They are ready to fight for lettuce. I mean, do you think Aegon would have handled the starvation any better, though? It's a good question. I will say that it seemed like Aegon, in the brief time that we saw him, at least he...

you know, he says that thing to Otto that makes Otto turn on his heel and back off, which is that the endeavors of the small folk are integral to the success of Team Green, of our regime in winning this war. Yeah. And Eamon doesn't seem to understand that piece of it. You know, I found it very interesting that he was like, why are they blaming Rhaenyra for this? It's her blockade. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it all seems very out of control at this point, which is not a good look for them. Aemond really seems to want to be in complete control at the moment, dismisses Alicent from all deliberations. Let's listen to that clip. You know very well I represented your father during the last years of his life, and I have been a counselor to Aegon. Capably so. Father's dead. Aegon is. You served the realm well at a time of need.

Yikes.

How do you think Alicent is feeling in this moment? Oh, terrible. You know, something I clocked is, and I forget who said it the first time around, but I'm fairly...

fairly certain that's the second time that someone has used the word capable to describe Allison's leadership. And I feel like it's a microaggression. Like, it feels like such a small word for the amount of, like, amazing work that she has done under, like, extreme duress, you know? I completely agree. And I think that, you know, I took note of

Aemond is really lording it over people. It's not just the announcing, I am the Prince Regent and the way he dresses everyone down, including his mom. You know, there is that exchange with Larys when he thinks that Larys is proposing himself or Hand of the King. And then Aemond reacts with a cruelty that you would expect from Aegon. You know, like that bullying kind of...

I'm not talking about you, you idiot. You know, I'm talking about my, I'm talking about Otto Hightower. Yeah. And all of it kind of speaks to power awakening the worst side of Amon. And I think Alison must feel as if she is in like a waking nightmare watching this happen. Yeah. I think she's

again, tremendously disappointed and feeling like, what have I done? You know, she's always asking for forgiveness, right? And I think part of that is forgiveness for bringing this regime to force. Yeah, I think that's real. We actually were able to check in with Ewan Mitchell, who plays Amand, about this scene and what Amand is thinking in this episode. So let's go listen to what he had to say about it. Ewan, thanks so much for talking to us again. Thank you.

I wonder if you could talk about Amon's, his style of leadership. I think in 206, you really kind of feel like he's feeling the power now.

Could you talk about that shift as Aemon starts, you know, he starts saying things like, I am the Prince Regent. How dare you? You know, like there's a real sense of, oh, he's feeling the juice now. So talk about that shift. I love that you keep calling it juice. The juice. Yeah. Aemon's juice. Yeah. I think that's one of the scary things about Aemon is how quickly he can just switch.

You know, from that moment that he goes from the Master of Ships chair to the King's chair, so instantaneous. It's like, oh my God, his perspective has just changed in a heartbeat. And all of these people are now seen in a completely different perspective around him. You don't see that he has any compassion or empathy, you know, for the small folk. And I think that's just tremendously scary. And you kind of think of Aegon when he sat in the chair,

And maybe he was better in some regard. It makes me think, too, I feel like is it a Mark Twain quote that is essentially like anyone who actually would want to be president is probably just a horrible person? You know, I think it kind of connects to that, too, a little bit, right? Mm.

Just like that hunger for power. Yeah, there's something interesting about the Cyclops in Greek mythology as well. The idea that he only has one perspective on something. He only takes his own actions into account and his own beliefs into account. And he doesn't necessarily consider the bigger picture. And maybe Amon's a little bit like that after all these Cyclops.

Amon is really shutting a lot of people out of his decision-making process in this episode. Can you talk about that dynamic?

Yeah, it's really quite cutthroat. It's mercenary. It's a side that you probably always knew Amon had, but to actually see it in action and to see him implement that strong eye and fist, it's so mercenary. And Amon, he even sends his mother away. It's like, mum, I don't want you at work. Let me do my job. Let me win this war. And then when it's through, we can make up. Yeah, talk more about firing Alicent. There's a ruthlessness to it.

But there's also a moment of tenderness where she reaches out and cups her son's face and essentially says, you know, haven't you exacted enough revenge for the iniquities of your childhood? I found that scene so striking. Yeah, I think in that moment, he finally has that little bit of affection from his mom that he's craved for so long. You know, one of the things that he does want, one of his objectives is, you know, is his mom.

And whether or not his vision aligns with her idea of happiness is another thing. But

I think Aemond, she is the kryptonite, that code. She challenges that. And so it's that thing of like, I can't function when you're in the room with me, so you've got to go. Like, I need to, I can't let my emotions get the better of me in this moment. This code has to remain in place for me to do my job. So you've got to go. I love working with Liv Cook as well. Like as Alison,

She can level you with her eyes, man. Scary. I believe that. She's amazing. Has Eamon thought at all about history and the way that he will be presented to history? Has he thought about shaping that legacy? I think so, yeah. I think that's maybe one of his end games as well, being seen as this

you know, nigh unkillable war hero that ultimately, you know, won the war for the side of the Greens by hook or by crook. I mean, you see it in his costumes, you know, this image that he has, it's so reminiscent of a young Daemon Targaryen.

I like an Aemond as like Daemon's biggest stan in a lot of ways. He wants to be better than him. He wants to be him, but he also wants to be better than him. And to do that, maybe that's a player he's got to take off the board and in doing so become the baddest man in the realm. Daemon is the baddest man in the realm, right? On that we can all agree. Oh, I love that. But Aemond is coming for that spot.

I'm looking forward to seeing whatever happens with that, for sure. That was the wonderful Ewan Mitchell, who plays Amon. I love getting his perspective. So thoughtful. Oh, yeah. I mean, what a fascinating character. All that subtext, it's just, like, delightful to talk to him about it. But to jump back to the rest of our discussion, in her next scene, Allison gets some good news from her brother, Gwaine, that young Darren is a hot and nice young man. Ha ha ha!

He's playing the lute. The ladies love him. And he's a nice guy. Nice guy. He's kind. Which Alicent, of course, is, you know, that is a feature that Alicent is looking for in this world. Kindness. Kindness is a quality I found lacking in his brothers. You did well to send him to war. Yes, it seems the Red Keep, for all its privileges, may in fact be a less than salubrious environment for the forming of young men.

Was it the court? Was it their mother? I'm sure you did your best. There it is. I think that Alicent, don't you think, is... The fact that the son that she didn't raise is the good one has got to cut to the bone. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I imagine there's a lot of like, oh God, what have I done? But then also like, thank God there's a good one out there somewhere, right? Yeah. But who knows how he'll treat her either, right? I mean, if all they've been doing is writing letters all this time, like that's... Well, speaking of Alison's sons... Of the bad ones. The bad ones. Aegon, the crispy king, is...

regaining consciousness. He's fighting through it. Shouts to Orwyle. He did a great job. Let's listen to Aemond going to visit Aegon. What do you remember? You challenged Melys. It was foolish. I remember...

So in that scene, you hear the Crispy King's distress as Amon is leaning his forearm into his burnt chest. Are we for sure calling him the Crispy King? Do we have to? No.

Can we start there? King Crispy the first. And when Aemond departs, Aegon opens his hand and he finds his small council ball. What do you think that Aemond is trying to say to his brother here? So many things. I mean, Aemond has it. Aemond has everything right now. I'm kind of surprised Aemond just didn't kill him outright. Yeah. I

I do wonder if he's a bit worried about how much Aegon does remember, though, too, in terms of, like, can you call me out on this? Yeah, I think he's concerned. And I think that, you know, Aemond is already called a kinslayer throughout the realm because of his, you know, role in the death of Luke, his nephew. And I think he is probably loathe to add to that tally by openly murdering his brother, right?

But I think that, you know, as Laris says when he visits Aegon, there's a real threat there. And I think that Aemond is probably thinking about, okay, if I need to get rid of this guy, how would I do it? How could I do it in a way that doesn't leave me looking bad? Right. Let's listen to some of that scene where Laris is painting this picture for Aegon of how others will now see him. People will pity you, either behind your back or in your presence. They will stare at you.

And they will underestimate you. And this will be your advantage. No. No. I thought this was a fascinating scene. I kind of read it as, I mean, it's fucked up. It's very sad and horrible. But I kind of thought of it as a pep talk. As a Westerosi pep talk. I think it was. I think it was a dose of truth that Aegon...

And that, you know, Laris is an outsider in this world. And I think Laris understands that. And he's used it quite well to his advantage, that understanding of that he's wearing this cloak of infirmity that allows him to get close to people who don't view him as any kind of threat. And he's trying to tell Agnes.

egg on that you'll be able to do this too. This is the seed of a quite powerful alliance. And I think one of necessity, you know, considering the exchange that Larys and Aemond have earlier in the episode, I think Larys probably feels himself under threat as well, don't you? Yes, totally. Yeah, no, I think Larys is

Taking a really big bet here, I think. I'm really curious to see how it plays out. But if he is going to back Aegon, he needs an Aegon who is not super reliant on Milk of the Poppy every hour and who can start to actually return to figuring out what life now looks like so that he can go back to being king. Yeah, I'll be fascinated to know

how and when Aegon returns to not power per se, but like the pursuit of it. Like, can he start making moves to strengthen himself against his brother right now? Like, what can he do? It'll be very fascinating to see that. Really interesting. I have to say, especially in that scene with Larys, he looks a lot better than I thought he was going to. Like his face. I mean, shouts to Orwell. Did a great job. Yeah.

Okay, Jason, I think next we should head to Dragonstone. That's where Rhaenyra is attempting to play out the plan she and Jace cooked up at the end of the last episode when she asks Stefan Darklyn to try and claim a dragon. You understand your peril, Sir Stefan. I do not compel you to do this. It has never been attempted before. To claim a dragon, you must also be prepared to die.

Perhaps the gods will favor us.

I think it's a good idea. I think it's not just a good idea, it's kind of a necessary idea because as we talked about, you can't keep sending the most important people in your government to potentially die. You need to be able to put some pawns on some dragons and send them forward as ruthless as that seems. And so I feel like this move, as crazy as it seems, to put non-Targaryens on dragons is...

Yes, I think this is a great plan. However, after our first attempt, it seems less like a viable option, or at least it's a very risky situation. It also does seem like a situation where you should let the dragon pick the rider instead of being like, hey, dragon, here's a person.

What do you think? You know? Like, let him fly around and find somebody. Right after that scene, we get Rhaenyra being a little slap happy. Oh, Bart talking back. Let's listen to that clip and then we'll talk about it. Seasmoke has fled Dragonstone and Sir Steffen was a valiant knight. Most regrettable.

So

So good. I mean, he did need to stop talking. Yeah, it's like enough. We got it. You made your point. Yeah. Like days ago. Enough. Enough with that. Another example of what I think the theme of this episode is, which is really the corrupting power of power. You know, everybody has been changed. Amon is screaming at people, balling up letters, throwing them on the ground, reminding everybody of his job title. Yeah.

Rhaenyra is like sending people to go get burned on the off chance that they have some Targaryen. Like everybody has been transformed by this pursuit of power. And I think this is one of those examples. Yeah, I think that's a great example of that.

Shall we go to the veil? Ah, the veil. Quite a fascinating development, don't you think, that Reyna has discovered that there is apparently a wild dragon, you know, plying the veil, and this is something that Lady Jane has thought not worth mentioning? Mm-hmm. I love that Reyna's such a smart cookie. She's like, oh, I know what that looks like. Mm-hmm. And I think she...

She's maybe thinking, it's kind of an interesting opportunity for me. I've always wanted a dragon. I was not able to claim a dragon previously, but there's like a wild dragon here. Yeah. That's interesting. I like that too. That's what my notes say. I wrote, who is the wild dragon and can Reyna have it, please? Yeah. Yeah.

Let's tap into what's happening with Damon at Harrenhal, where he is still just very clearly losing his mind. Yes, he is. It seems like he is really, he's like processing all the greatest hits moments that he was a piece of shit in his life, it seems like. It's hard for me to skip the feeling that Alice is not just like unleashing something and letting Damon's psyche take its course, but like stirring the pot for a reason. She seems to know that.

A tremendous amount about Damon's, not just his biography, but the way his mind works, the way he approaches conflict and family drama. It's quite interesting. Yeah.

It is really interesting. I did love that moment between the two of them when he asks for her advice. And she's like, are you asking me for advice? Yeah. I am really enjoying the dynamic between them, even though I also do definitely believe that she's like actively drugging him. Yeah, I think so too. Let's listen to that exchange where, you know, she just reels off a bunch of facts about Damon. Something does not please you, you run. Dragonstone, Stepstones, Pentos, Harrenhal. I wake and I do not know where I've been.

There are older things in this world than you or I or living memory. You are not the player, but a piece on the board. As am I, for that matter. I'm not like you. In some ways, no. You struggle to see there's an anger that blinds you. She never even wanted it. The crown. She spared it. No thought. That's perhaps why your brother gave the crown to her. Perhaps those who strive for it are the least suited to wear it. Don't lecture me!

Oh, sweet, Damon. She reacts with this very tight smile to that don't lecture me, which I thought was...

Quite juicy. I agree. I think she's providing a lot of comic relief and I'm delighted by it. Who do you think the player is that she is referencing here? She's talking about a, you know, a great game and the pieces on the board and they are herself and Damon. But who's playing the pieces? Who's she referring to? I love that question. I mean, my first guess would be Rhaenyra.

But I wonder if she's actually more zoomed out than that, too. You know, I could see this being like it could be about the prophecy. Yeah. I wonder if it's not even more zoomed out than that. You know, I think that the Riverlands, again, is a mysterious place. You see in that scene when they're in the godswood talking just over the wall, you can see in the background there this huge body of water. That's the God's Eye Lake, which

There's an island on the middle of it that's just all weirwoods. And according to legend, the children of the forest are still there on that island. So there's very, very old and ancient...

and ancient things that are still afoot in the Riverlands. And I think that Alice has tapped into it. She's a part of it. She talks about that she's an owl in human form, and then we see her call that owl. Is she a warg? Does she have, wield that power of a greenseer where she can enter into the mind and body of an animal? What is going on here? It's fascinating, but I think that she is tapped into it.

the Weirwoods somehow, something very, very old and very, very ancient. And I have no idea what her, why she is playing Damon like this. Like there must be a reason for it, but we don't understand why. Yeah. I'm really curious to see how all that plays out. I mean, especially given the fact that it seems as though she did something pretty significant in this episode, which was help facilitate the death of Lord Grover Tully, which was long awaited by Damon at this point.

Yeah, I think it opens the way for Daemon to get the allegiance of the Riverlands all together, put a huge army all of a sudden on the doorstep of King's Landing. You know, maybe what Alice and whoever is the player who is manipulating Alice or she is working for,

Maybe the idea is let's make this war as damaging as possible. Let's let's kill off the dragons. I don't know. But like, it really seems as if the blacks were on their heels. And Alice, for whatever reason, has swung the game, you know, dramatically in their favor. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to get a read on her at this point. Do you think she supports Rhaenyra? Yeah.

Or do you think she's, I mean, she's fucking with Daemon, but she's also still helping him. I think she is under the sway of some other more ancient, higher, more diffuse power. But I kind of suspect, again, if she is in league with the old gods and that kind of power, that maybe it's to damage Daemon.

two sides who wield the power of dragons so that dragons are no longer an issue anymore. Dun, dun, dun. Oh, that's so exciting. Dun, dun, dun. I love that. I love that. Should we jump to the Rhaenyra-Missara discussions and hookup? Yes. I would love that. I've been waiting this whole time. Rhaenys and her dragon are dead. I have Cyrax and two young beasts. We cannot take on Vhagar alone.

And I have no army. You have the Velaryon fleet and the men who fight in it. It's not enough. And even if we somehow prevailed, how will I rule a kingdom when my own son doubts me? You have me.

So beautiful. What do you think draws these two together besides the shared relationship with Damon and their ability to commiserate on what a piece of shit he is? Which is a big one. It's a big one. I think...

I think they've both been so underestimated. You know, I feel like we kind of talked about this when we talked about why Rhaenyra wouldn't have named Miss Arya as Hand, right? And it's like, Miss Arya is such an outsider. She has not played by the rules. She's still been really successful. I imagine that's really threatening to a lot of people. Rhaenyra is also very threatening in her own way. So I think that's a lot of it, is that they both have found themselves in positions of power, right?

but also really seriously overlooked in a lot of ways. And so I think they have a really common backstory that way. Yeah, I think that's right. You know, we've heard...

in the previous episode to Misaria, you know, kind of decry the fact that, you know, no one ever taught me how to fight a war. And here she is speaking to a woman who is completely self-made, who also was not shown the ways of the world, but figured it out like on her own by her, you know, by the dint of her own mind and cunning. And I think, I

I think Rhaenyra finds that inspiring and attractive, and I think for Mysaria's part, here is a cause that she can believe in. Like, Mysaria cares about the small folk in a way that I think none of the kind of nobles can really understand.

And here, Rhaenyra has given her leave to harness the small folk and their discontent in a way that can perhaps benefit them, but also benefit her. And I think I'm happy for these two. I think that's a really interesting pairing. This is a question that I hate to ask because I also am thrilled by this pairing, but I feel like it should be asked, which is...

Did it cross your mind that maybe Misaria is playing Rhaenyra at this point? I think it is possible, right? I mean, this is a person who's always shown herself to be, above all else, self-interested and interested, you know, eager to advance her own ambitions, right?

And I think this is a relationship already now that would make Rhaenyra look really bad. So that's leverage that Mysaria has over the queen, potentially. So I think that that is something to worry about. Do you sense that? I don't want to, but I couldn't help but thinking about it, especially on my second viewing. I think, you know, Rhaenyra is being so vulnerable here. And Mysaria is also, I will say, I mean, Mysaria also opens up pretty intensely in this scene, right?

But I think Miss Saria knows how to use physicality as an angle and as a power grab. Yeah.

And just made me wonder if there were ulterior motives in what Misaria is doing here. Well, I think Misaria has an ability to understand what a person wants. And I think what Rhaenyra wants, really, really wants and needs right now is for someone to believe in her and say, you are the rightful... She's been asking Daemon this. Do you believe that I'm your rightful queen? And that is, I think, the unspoken question that she wants to ask everyone. She's so...

heartbroken that even her own son maybe doesn't think that she's the right person for this job. So I think that it is...

Impossible to escape that Misaria knew exactly the things that Rhaenyra wanted to hear, which is, I believe that you're the right person. I'm here for you. I believe in you. Unquestionably. Yeah. And of course, their kiss is interrupted by a very exciting ending to this episode. Seasmoke flying around. And guess what? There's somebody on his back. Rhaenyra chooses to face Seasmoke, I think, first.

What do you think is going through her mind at this time? I have no idea. I mean, I get her wanting to go see what the deal is, but I can't imagine that if you're on Dragonback and you're trying to identify someone who's on a different... I mean, she has no idea if Seasmoke is a legion to Team Black anymore, right? Like, it's a very risky move. I don't even think she knows who Adam is. I think she'll fly up and be like, who's that? Yeah. But I think that, you know, she's...

spoken a lot, particularly in this episode, about I can't just sit here. I can't just sit here. Everybody's protecting me. They're dying for me. And I can't get out there because I'm the queen. And she's in her chambers trying on swords. And I think that

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I think that interaction is going to be really interesting. But I think in the long run, Rhaenyra is going to be thrilled, right? I will say I wonder because Rhaenyra was already kind of bucking at the idea that a non-Targaryen would ride a dragon. You know, she's like, okay, we're going to put a Tarly on a dragon. And now I think it is going to be quite shocking that a bastard is riding a dragon. I think that that will... Oh, totally. Yeah.

fly in the face of the way the nobility thinks about themselves, the way Targaryens think about themselves. And I think it will be as important as it will be to the war effort. I think it could potentially be as damaging to the stature of the Targaryens, the mystique of the Targaryens. It's just like any guy can get on a dragon now. I'm thrilled. I can't wait. I want more muggles on dragons. I completely agree. More muggles on dragons.

Well, we are entering the homestretch of this season and there is no one better to talk about it than the brilliant Sarah Hess, who is co-head writer for the show. Let's listen to our conversation with her.

We are so excited to welcome Sarah Hess to the podcast. Sarah, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So I would love to talk about what's going on with Damon in this episode. I have to say Alice Rivers is probably my favorite character. I just think she's so strange and delightful. Harrenhal itself is like its own character, which is so great. And I was actually kind of surprised to realize that like Damon's visions aren't in the books. No. No.

Damon, in the books, he sort of just goes to Harrenhal and takes the castle and raises an army. And that part, because it's a history, there's a lot of detail that's just sort of skipped over. It's like, that just happened. But we sort of really decided to lean into the story.

weirdness and hauntedness of Harrenhal, which is set out in the books, and to try to imagine what that would be like. And, you know, Daemon is a, he's the rogue prince, and he's got a dragon, and he's great at fighting with a sword. And it just was really interesting to us to think about putting him in a situation that he couldn't control with his physical prowess or his reputation or his legend and just have to deal with

sort of, you know, go more internal with him and have to deal with the shit that's been sort of happening in his psyche throughout season one, which we haven't really explored. You've just seen him be a wild and crazy guy, but you haven't seen sort of like what his emotional experience of season one was. So it was both really fun and I think a really good, you know, opportunity to go deeper with him and get into what drives him and what his emotional state is.

One of the things I think about as a fan of the books and the shows, Showsa, is this really interesting balance between the fantasy elements that are in this fantasy show, fantasy story, and the really grounded, emotional, relatable parts of it. And I think what's so interesting about Damon and the Heron Hall with Alice Rivers is...

is you really kind of like delving into the magical lore in a more concentrated way in this season. What is that balance like? How do you strike that balance between the kind of relatability and opening the door to these magical elements?

Mostly our show is very grounded. We don't have a lot of magic other than the fact that there's dragons flying around, which obviously, huge. But other than that, you know, yeah, as we said, there's no, you know, we haven't had a smoke baby. There's no, you know, like really supernatural elements. And actually, even at Heron Hall, we sort of gave ourselves permission to enjoy that mystical edge to it. But we also, we sort of thought about it as magic.

We've never really said in the show, like, what is the deal at Harrenhal? Like, is it actually haunted? Or is Damon just having these crazy dreams because he's having a, you know, sort of psychological meltdown a little bit? And, you know, Harrenhal's in the Riverlands. Is it, you know, we even talked about it. Are there weird swamp gases that are making people...

Or is Alice actually poisoning him? Or like, you know, which is not, wouldn't be mystical at all. Like, is she just giving him some kind of hallucinogen? And we actually don't ever answer that question for certain in dialogue. We probably each have our own, you know, what we think is going on there. But he is sort of consumed by his own guilt and the things that are ravaging him. And...

And Harrenhal has this reputation. And so we kind of wanted to leave it open-ended where there's a version where this is actually just pretty grounded and he's just sleep deprived and going over the things that have gone wrong in his life. And she's just fucking with him, you know, or maybe it's magic. And we didn't sort of want to say one way or the other.

But it definitely gave us license and we had a lot of, you know, it was just, it was fun to play with. I don't know if anyone's ever talked about this, but the true star of our show, Del the goat, who appears in here and was like the greatest. We just had this crazy idea when it was like, what if there's just a random goat that's at Heron Hall and you never see him and Alice Rivers in the same room together. And,

And so we just, and the directors obviously just like went with it to a crazy extent, which is so fun. And you know, like we're not saying that Alice turns into a ghost.

to a goat? I mean, she probably doesn't, but you know. But you're not not saying that. We're not not saying it. Yes, never, please do not let there be a headline that's like, executive producer says Alice is a goat because that's not what it is. We just liked messing around with it and sort of, yeah, just leaning into it. I love that. Del the goat, incredible. Yeah.

So what are the conversations like in the writer's room when you do decide to, I don't know if deviate is even the right word, maybe embellish is better when it comes to a storyline like Damon's that isn't in the text but still feels authentic to the story and to his character? Like, how are you, what are your criteria for that? I mean, our criteria is because...

the book is both a broad history and an unreliable narrative. There are definitely gaps, you know, like, oh, you know, Damon flew to Harrenhal and raised an army. So that's like, you know, it's one of those, the cavalry comes over the hill. There's like, there's so much going on there, but it skipped over very quickly. And, you know, because it's a huge story and it has other places to be, and this is just one element of it. But I think like,

Ryan comes from a place of being a massive fan of the books. And I loved the books, like the original Game of Thrones books. And I think when we embellish, we're just very careful. You know, it's part of the joy of being adapters that we can bring our own interpretations and imaginations to it. But we also try to stay very true to the spirit of what is there and what has been laid out and what are the parameters, you know, what is possible, what are...

you know, sort of what are the parameters of that world and what's happening there. And even in the sort of dreams slash visions that Damon experiences there, you know, it wasn't anything that's outside of our ken or of our show. He's sort of reliving the events that have already happened. So, you know, he's not seeing pink elephants. We didn't like make up something that doesn't exist.

exist within our world. So we definitely have those with, you know, we give ourselves license to create, but within the parameters that, that are already existing. Let's talk a little bit more about Alice Rivers because similar to the situation with Damon's source material, you know, there's a lot of open-ended questions about Alice in the books and

who she is, what she's doing, what her relationship to various characters are, it's left as a question. How did you go about finding a direction and a vibe for this character who is so spooky and wonderful? Oh, she's perfect. Yeah. With Alice, it's been an ongoing process because, yes, she is spooky and it's in the book's

There are so many competing versions of what she is. And so, yeah, we were trying to walk this line of embracing that mystery and the pleasure of not knowing without making it sort of just like, ooh, she's just there and weird and, you know, having her at the end be sort of unsatisfying. And so we sort of lent into the idea of her being...

being at this castle and lonely and, you know, sort of looking for human contact and what is that relationship with Damon shows up. Everybody there is sort of, you know, I adore Sir Simon Russell Beale and his weird sons that are there. But it's like she's sort of living there with these people who don't seem to have any kind of like, you know, like,

For lack of a better word, weirdness within themselves. Like, they're just living these sort of prosaic lives, you know, doing the best they can. Like, you know, we always thought of him as like, he's like Frasier, but in the middle of, you know, Grey Gardens. It's like he's sort of like, likes the finer things and he's sort of in this small world and she's got obviously bigger sights. And so...

What is her experience of being there with these people? And then what happens when somebody like Damon comes along? We're going places with her. So, yeah. Another new character we meet this season is Alison's brother, Sir Gawain, Sir Gawain Hightower. In this episode, we get a really juicy conversation that delves into their upbringing. We get a lot of a sense of how they related to each other, their

What was it like kind of creating that backstory and bringing it to life? I mean, it was really fun. We sort of visualized him at first as sort of a more fun character who's sort of like, again, I mean, not to go back to Frasier, but I mean...

He's a little Niles, right? He's like, he comes in and he's like sort of, he's sort of, you know, he's posh and he's upper crust and he's like, it's like one of the eaten boys from, you know, in England who come in and Cole is a, you know, working class guy who's sort of...

worked his way up and has supplanted Gawain's dad and become the hand. And Gawain definitely has a chip on his shoulder, but is too, you know, posh to show it. But it's like that, you know, we had sort of fun with that dynamic of it. But then when you get into that conversation, also, when you think about it,

Like how both of these characters, first of all, are kind of alone. They're family, but they don't know each other at all. They, you know, they have these weird residual feelings of like, oh, you're my brother and we have the same dad, but I don't know you. And so it's sort of, you know, emblematic of at the end of the day, what does she have left, you know,

who's there for her. And so, yeah, that was a, it's a poignant scene to write and a way to sort of make a character that's been a little funny and a little foppish so far, you know, around him and make, make their dynamic real. I was really struck by the exchange when Serwain is telling Alison about Darren and says, well,

You know, you mentioned that they don't really know each other, but Gwyn knows enough about his sister to know she would care about this. He's like, and he's kind. I found that so touching. Yeah, I think that is actually like some offering of comfort to Alison. Like, I think she does find reassurance from that just because, you know, like her other two sons are like...

I mean, she does, but also she doesn't because I think he is saying to her, like, look, he's a good kid. He's okay. And I think he means that as comforting, but in a way it freaks her out because her other two sons who have been with her in the castle this whole time are shitheads. And so she's like...

Oh, no. At least there's one good one, even though I had nothing to do with it. But also, is it me? Yeah. Like, what is the thing that, you know, how did I fail? How did I fail? Or, you know, it's a hard thing to parse just because in real life in those casts, it's not like she probably was like a hands-on mom. They all had nurses and tutors and people were raising them and she saw them. But, you know, you see her trying to sort of

you know, beat Egon into being a better person. And she, you know, she became a mom when she was like 15 or whatever and she didn't have the skills. And these kids are just sort of not what she would desire them to be. And then to hear that there's one who's actually turned out okay, I think, again, it's comforting and also makes her feel terrible. Yeah, that tracks. Okay, so I think what we're really starting to see at this point in the series that's so fascinating is that

she is really tangibly starting to reckon with the fact that she did everything that everyone told her to do, and she had an assumption of certain outcomes that are just like obviously not going to be the case for her. And to see her wrestle with that, I think is both heartbreaking and fascinating. I'm so glad you recognized that element of it, because yes, that is definitely what we're going for, that she's

She's definitely reckoning with the patriarchy and the ways in which she has bought into it. And, you know, again, her father, her husband, you know, her sons, like she has put her faith in men. She told Rainice, you know, we're not supposed to rule. We're just going to, we're the soft power that helps men make the right decisions. And she, it's, as you said, she's done everything everyone asked her to do, basically, right?

And it can be argued that she's smarter than a lot of those dudes in the room. And yet here she is. And at the end of the day, it's sort of about, you know, guys with swords and they're running off and she's doesn't have any control over what's going to happen next. And she's she's definitely is in a space where she is

I think she's coming to terms with how young she was when all this went down. And, you know, again, she's never going to say these words. But for us, we definitely came into this like, did she want to marry Viserys? Maybe I think she did. But what is the age of where you can consent to a thing like that with with any kind of clarity or understanding of what that's going to do?

As a mother, you know, again, she was 15, 16 when she had children and didn't know what the fuck she was doing. And so she's sort of realizing, like, oh...

I think she says this to Otto at the end of season one, you know, I don't know what I wanted. Like, how do I even know if I wanted the things I wanted because they were put into my brain at such an early time. Yeah. Yeah. She was told this is what you want. So she wanted them, but she's really starting to take things apart at this point and realize that, you know, almost everything she's done and everything she's wanted has been because of an idea that that has been put into her head and,

And now that everyone is falling away, you know, Aegon is fucked. Aemon has turned, you know, turned her away. And Cole is riding, has sort of betrayed her and is riding off. And Larys is an eel. And she's sort of thinking, who am I? You know, when all this stuff is taken away and she's lost the little amount of power that she had. Who am I as a human being? And what is my role? And what do I want? Right.

I don't think she knows, and I think she's trying to figure that out. Two other new characters we meet this season, Alan and Adam of Hull, are really growing into the story by this point. We know that they are Corliss's sons from another woman, but it's unclear how much Corliss is really aware of their lives other than knowing that they exist, seeing them around the dock. How did you go about kind of

slow rolling, this really interesting growing relationship between the two brothers and now their wayward father. They are characters in the book and we were conscious that

We didn't want it to be like, oh, his other kids died and his wife dies. And then surprise, he has a whole second family. Just kidding. He's got like these other kids. So we definitely wanted to bring them into the story slowly. And it was also really important to us, to me for sure, to make sure that we show that Rhaenys knew about them.

And, you know, sort of ended up giving Alan her blessing in whatever way because we didn't want it to be like she dies and Corliss like just goes off to his new family. But that it was something that he had been carrying for a long time and that he felt really deep shame over. I mean, you know, look, in those days, probably every dude had like a couple of bastard kids running around and they didn't have the same ideas of fidelity. Yeah.

That we do. I don't think it was like, oh, you cheated on me. It's like, yes, of course he did. Like, I don't think that was the deal. Like, you know, I don't think...

You know, the idea of that kind of monogamy, I think it's like it was more important to be absolutely faithful to your family unit and your bloodline and all that. But like what you did on the side, I don't think there was the same kind of expectation. But I think, you know, they are arguably the best couple in the show. They have the best relationship. Definitively. I think he himself was very strong.

You know, he's been, we were thinking like, you know, the dude's been sailing around the world for like seven years. Some shit went down. Yeah, he was away. But like he, you know, he's man enough to feel terrible about it. And so I think he just decided, oh, well, you know, they're fine. I'm just going to go back to my life. And he has not, yes, he has not reckoned with the psychological damage that he did, you know, or what it was like for these kids growing up and the ways that they've reacted to not having a dad and, you know,

But also knowing who he is and just having him sort of be in their presence. And so, yeah, that's a really interesting dynamic for us. Just to zoom out for a moment, I mean, this show is always about power, but it struck us in our conversation, Greta and I, about how much this episode is about watching different characters really try and wield their power kind of for the first time. And you see...

Aemon One-Eye kind of becoming a little unhinged when people contradict him or seem to him to supersede his authority. And you're seeing Rhaenyra now with the plan with Mysaria to foment unrest in the capital, really coming to terms with, okay, here's how ruthless I need to be. How much do you talk about how power...

and warps these different characters. Endlessly. Let's just say that's a major theme of ours carrying forward, you know, through the whole season, but massively into season three as well. And sort of how you wield power and how power changes you. And...

how much power it's appropriate for one person to have are themes that we continue to come back to and engage us. And for me, it's like a driving motif behind the entire show. Yeah.

Well, it seems like, too, in tandem with that is the patriarchy of it all, too, right? And I think about especially in season one, there was that motif around the birthing bed being our battlefield. I think so much in this season, we're seeing a lot of different reckonings with patriarchy, but also the...

the duality and conflict around being both queen and mother. I would love to hear if there are any other sort of like big themes that you're confronting, especially around centering women's stories in this world, which hasn't always happened, you know? You're absolutely right. And I think one of the big things for us going forward too is Rhaenyra's grappling with her own femaleness. Mm-hmm.

what that means and her also looking at how people perceive her. So she says in this episode, I'm tired of being protected. The men see me as their mother or their daughter, and I have to be a ruler. They're looking at the crown and the dress and all this stuff, and they're not able to see in me somebody who can credibly lead them, and this is a problem for me. And I think that is a

you know, again, that's a motif going forward is like, how do you wield power as a woman in this world? And is it even possible? You know, and she keeps trying to get on her dragon and go fly. And they're like, no, we have to protect you. And she's, you know, really chafing at that. And Misari is trying to give her other ways to wield power. It's like, okay, well, we can do this there. You know, there is power in the people, there is power in public opinion. But she's sort of like,

she keeps coming very close to this realization of like, I need to get on the dragon and go out and smoke people. And that, you know, I'm a dragon rider and yet she can't do it. And so she's being held back and there's this rising frustration within her. And I think that's, again, a thing that goes forward and is a major part of her character. Um, let's talk about that, that conversation with Miss Aria because, um, Miss Aria pitches to Rhaenyra. Well, um,

The people are very upset. The blockade is working. Prices are going up. Food is very scarce, and we can use this. It's been very interesting to see Misaria move from being someone who is deeply affected by the plight of the common people, but also someone who'll be like, and we can use how badly they're suffering. We can use that. Such a complex character. What drives Misaria? Is it like this...

connection and feeling for the plight of the common people? Or is she starting to be changed by her proximity to this powerful person?

I think the answer is all of the above. And, you know, people are never one thing or another. Right. I don't think, you know, most of us don't know exactly why we're doing anything. Like, you know, or you may think you're doing something for one reason. But, you know, if you really excavate it, it's like because you were mad at your dad or, you know, whatever it is. Or you think you're very much justified in something. But, you know, we will. So definitely there are all those things going on.

I think she does actually see in Rhaenyra the beginnings of, oh, okay, if there's always going to be a ruler, the common folk are always going to be ruled or oppressed by somebody. Well, maybe it could be the best possible version of that person, which she does believe is going to be Rhaenyra. And so I think she's willing to...

pay a significant price to see that that happens because the alternative is the Hightowers, who she hates. She says herself she has worked her way up in significance and power before.

for her entire life. She's left her life of being a whore behind and she started trading secrets. And then she became somebody that the hand of the king was come in making bargains with and she loved that. And then she got betrayed and thrown out on her ass. But there's definitely, you can't say that there's not a part of her that isn't enjoying now being the person who is the closest to the

queen in Damon's absence and is whispering ideas to her and having them taken seriously. And no one's ever taken her that seriously before on her own merits or seen her as somebody worthy of listening to. And so I think that is really important to her. And, you know, again, I think she believes in Rhaenyra as an ideal or as somebody who can, you know, is the best of her options and also, you

is always, you know, is going to be having an eye out for her own advancement and her own agenda. And hopefully, you know, for her, those two things feel like they work together. I want to go back to what you said about Asaria both

continuing to like look out for her own interests, but also see a lot of potential and goodness in Rhaenyra in the context of their kiss in this episode. Cause that was very exciting and surprising. I would love to know like how that came to be. Emma pointed out that Rhaenyra very rarely is touched. Hmm.

She is, you know, she's the queen and she sort of removes herself emotionally from a lot of things. And even, you know, sort of Luke dies and Rhaenys dies and these, you know, horrible things happen. And she, you see Rhaenyra be affected by them.

but she has to very much keep her shit together and sort of, you know, again, as we talked about is very conscious of being seen as weak. It's like, you can't break down because people are going to be like, Oh, this is what women do or whatever. And, you know, we, we,

showed that at the end of season one when she's literally like giving birth in a room and pulling this baby out and then running back to try to rule this. You know, it's like she she can't, you know, afford to be seen as like losing a step. And so we were really interested in that relationship between Rhaenyra and Mysaria when sort of Daemon has flown off. Who listens to Rhaenyra? Like Rhaenyra doesn't have any friends, right?

You know, she has Damon with whom she has an incredibly intense relationship. And, you know, they have this love and this resentment and this anger and this draw towards each other that's sort of like animal and beyond description. You know, I don't think they sit in bed together and he doesn't say, so Rhaenyra, how do you feel about this? How are you today? I don't think like that aspect of their relationship is like, you know, probably something that

has been really, you know, forefront. And so it was interesting to us that she's now in this castle sort of alone with like, you know, all these men who don't really listen to her and her son, who's kind of rebelling against her. And then this person who obviously is a commoner and, and whatever, but you know, is sort of spiritually her, an equal to her that she can confide in. And she hasn't had a friend, um,

Since Alicent, right? Since she was a child. And so what is that relationship? Like we thought it was, it's really interesting to us to get into that and to see her sort of drop her guard a little bit and become a person who can share things with her. And so that the moment of the kiss, I think came out of like just this vulnerability in her where she's actually able to say to Misaria,

I think Damon has gone off. I think he's betrayed me and I'm really scared. And Misaria is able to hear that and say, you know, basically, I believe in you. I'm here for you. And just to have that moment when it was Emma's impulse, which was absolutely correct, I believe. Emma, who plays Rhaenyra. Yeah, Emma, Darcy. Their impulse at that moment was just to go and hug Misaria. Wow. Because like...

Rhaenyra needs to hear that so much. It's just like, I just, I believe in you. Like, you know, as everyone else has been fucking up in her grill the entire time. Like, can you do this? What are you doing? You know, it's just like second guess. And just to have somebody stand there and listen to her saying, I'm afraid and say, I believe in you. And that that was so moving for them, for Emma on the day that the impulse was, yes, I just want to

I just want to hug you. Like, thank you for that. Wow. And then I think the... I love that scene so much. I think it's so beautiful. The two of them, like, Sonoya and Emma, the chemistry, but just the softness of it and how it comes about. And you don't ever get to see Rhaenyra be soft. And so...

It's funny because it feels very prurient. It's like, oh, you know, it's girls kissing, but it's like, it's actually, it's this moment of just people letting their guard down and sort of finding each other. And I think it's really beautiful. And it's this, I think actually story-wise, we need that moment because we need to see Rhaenyra be soft. We need to see that Rhaenyra has this side that it's not all stoicism and, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

sort of stomping around the castle, but that, you know, that she is, as a character, yearning for something that Misari can maybe provide in that moment. There's a sweetness, too. Yeah, and also, you know, it's a good way to...

complicate shit because oh yeah it's great yeah that's gonna yeah this is it's gonna be a problem so it was Emma's idea essentially like it came from no no no that was written in oh okay okay okay that it was written in for sure we always wanted that although obviously we discussed it with Emma and Sonoya at great length before we went into it but it was Emma's impulse to just that step towards Sonoya and that and that embracing of her as a way to sort of enter that moment which I think was beautiful and right on totally

Well, here's the question to close with that I think everybody's been waiting for. We've been asking people whether they are team black or team green, but I wonder if we might put a twist on it, which is ask you, who do you think is winning?

At this point in the story. Nobody's winning. There's no winning. Yeah. It just, everybody, it just sucks. Like, nobody, who's happy? It sucks for everyone. It's terrible. Like, which is kind of the point of the show, I guess, is that Del the goat is having a great time. Del the goat wins. That's a good answer. Del is loving life. Yeah. I'm trying to think of, like, who's even... I know. Yeah. Nobody's winning, man. Like, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's fair. Which I think is kind of the point. Sarah, it is always so much fun to have you on. Thank you for talking with us about this episode and the show in general. It's very fun to be here. Thanks, you guys. I appreciate it. My takeaway, Greta, is...

I got to get Adele the goat. Yeah, yeah. Adele the goat is the goat for sure. See what I did there? You see what I did there? He's the goat. Oh, my God. Sarah's really great, though. I really love, like, it's always so interesting to talk to the writers because you really can get a sense of, like, these big themes that they're working through every episode and, like, seeing them sprout up. It's always just such a joy, I think, you know?

Sarah, also a goat. Sorry. Well, this week we're also lucky enough to get to talk to Sonoya Mizuno, who plays Misaria, who is proving herself to be Team Black's secret weapon and perhaps maybe a little bit more than an advisor. Let's go listen to that conversation.

We are so excited to welcome Sonoya Mizuno, who plays the wonderfully mysterious Misaria, to the program. Thank you for joining us, Sonoya. Thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here. So this season, Misaria has become Rhaenyra's most trusted advisor. And...

Some would probably call it a surprising alliance, but I think it ends up making a lot of sense. And it's really fun to watch the dynamics between those two. I'd love to hear what it's like to work so much more closely with Emma Darcy, who is just phenomenal as Rhaenyra. Yeah, that was kind of the greatest pleasure of many of this past season for me was working with Emma. Because like you said, they are just phenomenal partners.

They are an extraordinary actor. And I definitely had a bit of a sense of like, oh my God, that's a bit intimidating because they're so brilliant. But they're also the loveliest, most beautiful human on earth. So I was just extremely lucky to be working that closely with them.

What is it about Rhaenyra that lets Mysaria feel that she can open up to this person and trust this person? At the beginning of the season, I feel like, and we would discuss this frankness they have with each other. It's kind of honesty, which, you know, a lot of the characters in this show just do not have. And I remember Emma had these two words, kindness and suspicion, and

that they had with each other. And it felt like that was there from the beginning. And then when Massaria starts working with Rhaenyra, I think she makes the mistake of thinking that she needs to treat her or serve her in the way she did Daemon or

many of her other clients when she was a sex worker, which is to placate them and soothe them and tell them how amazing they are. And she tries that in a sense with Rhaenyra and it doesn't work. And I think from that place, when Mysaria realizes, oh, she actually wants my advice. She's actually interested in what I can give her

I also think in a way she doesn't know how Rhaenyra is going to act, but she does know at this point what Rhaenyra needs to hear, which is that the small folk

need someone like you and I know that because I'm one of them and I came from that and I am able to tell her this by giving her my very honest true story of why they need someone like you. Misaria is also the only person that Rhaenyra can talk to about Daemon and

Talk to us about that aspect of their relationship. They really seem to bond over the experience of Damon. Yeah, it's quite funny. Me and Emma would talk about this. It's quite funny. It's like, you know, two women who have the same ex-boyfriend. They're like, yeah, you know, that guy. Yeah.

didn't it drive you nuts when he would yeah exactly he did that to me too exactly it's quite funny but it is it is kind of a way in for them and I think that in a way it's it's kind of ironic that that is the bridge that connects them but

Damon is also, you know, he's such a huge presence and character in one's life if he's in your life. So I think to understand him a little bit, he doesn't give himself to many people. So it's not exactly a shared experience. So I think there is something about that

which is comforting almost. But it's strange, the two of them, Runea and Misaria, because I think they both go into the prospect of any relationship or conversation thinking like, I have nothing in common with this person, like absolutely nothing. And they both have prejudices against each other. But

The beauty in it is, is they have more in common than they think. Absolutely. It's very clear. I mean, Misaria has really only been able to rely on herself for so long, right? And I think about that scene and the fact that she's telling Rhaenyra about a horrific past.

And it makes me wonder how much, I mean, do you think part of the dynamic of what's happening here too is that Misaria is actually opening up and trusting someone for the first time in a very, very long time? Yeah, absolutely. I felt that Misaria, you know, she's talking about this extraordinarily important

horrific situation that she had when she was young and she has never spoken about it. And it's extremely vulnerable to speak about it. But the way in which she speaks about it is she has to speak about it with a kind of, still with a kind of reserve or a toughness because it is just too painful for

And it's also like, you know, she's talking about it for no manipulative reason, but she is talking about it with the woman that she works for. The reason she is able to open up is because of Rhaenyra. She's such a student of the public reaction again. How do you think she thinks about how people will react to her and Rhaenyra's relationship

professional relationship, the possibility of the reveal of their personal relationship. How do you think Misaria...

the reaction in the realm and even of the people that are opposing them. Honestly, I think that the people that are opposing them, the people in Rhaenyra's castle, I really think Mysaria doesn't give a fuck about them. Right. I honestly, honestly think that she does not give a fuck about those men. So...

And as far as the broader...

I think she feels like she... Because she's sending messages to people through Elinda Massey and so forth. So I think she very confidently feels like they can know that this is what's happening. And I am on their side from the inside. I'm in a better position here to help them. So I think she feels...

very confident about her position from their point of view but as far as anything romantic or the the intimacy of their relationship at this point it's like it's not even happening and she would not admit to anyone that it is happening i think there's certain things that she keeps

very close to her chest and this would be one of them yeah that makes sense yeah well sonoya thank you so much for coming on and talking with us it was really nice to talk with you pleasure yeah yeah it was really nice to talk to you guys as well thank you for having me

It's wonderful to get her perspective about that really interesting, fascinating relationship that really looks like it might change a lot of things about the show. I agree. I think Miss Aria is definitely one of the most fascinating characters. It's been really interesting to get a little more backstory. And yeah, just to see a seemingly unexpected relationship form between those two has been definitely one of the more interesting aspects of this season, too.

That's all for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night right after Episode 7 airs on HBO and Max. And if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me at NETW3RK on X and Instagram.

And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. And this podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, J.N. Berry, and Barry Finkel.

Our lead engineer is Hannes Braun, and Hannes also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira.

Our editor is Darby Maloney with fact-checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter. Our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter, and my co-host, Jason Concepcion. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater, and Aaron Kelly from the Max podcast team. Thanks for listening. And remember, be mindful when taking too much milk of the poppy, it can be dangerous. The drink takes the pain away.

But it dulls your mind.