#2172 - Sebastian Junger
02:22:05 Share

The joe rogan experience.

As I was saying, you one of the last the allegations rock in that flip phone.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm proud of IT did do you text people? Yeah, I text to do the do, do, do, do, do, do or IT takes a bunch .

of times to go. It's someone called t is predictive texting, so gives you a bunch of alternatives. You just have to do IT all want to keep pad with your tham rather than with an iphone with. You have the full out of that.

But I bet that battery last a week.

I don't even travel with a charger. Men, really yeah I mean, less. I'm gone for a week, but if i'm just gone for a couple of days and I don't have any long conversations plan that I really bother. W yeah all email.

everything handled at home, plus, all in the laptop.

Yes, plus, chicks get.

want to drink here. savages. No one point. I.

I was CNN waiting for to go on. And these two Young women, I kept looking at me. No, it's like ten years ago. So I was plausibly could say to myself, wow, maybe I still got that right.

Like to you right? right? And then one of noticed that I had noticed them looking at me, and he goes to excuse me. So we were just, we can't believe that you have a flipped. So is like, well, that's the end of .

an era ten years ago.

yes wow yeah ten years ago there's .

a few people out there there were hanging my friend are is still a little a flip one ten years ago. Ah the only for people I know now are you and David tale so you're in good company.

Yeah it's right. It's cool telling it's cool. It's coming back is the the .

next big thing why I know a lot of people they switch to what's called I think it's called the simple phone. I was called Jimmy. What does that thing called? What's that now? The little time that one is IT just gives you a nothing but like text message.

I think you can get music on a two things. Got a simple phone. It's I got, like you ever do read on a tablet.

You know, one of those kindles, I don't. Well, the great thing about those is they have this White paper looking into face. So IT doesn't look like a screen.

IT looks like paper. Yes, that's what this little phone one looks like. And it's the same, sorry, that's what IT is.

Light phone. Yeah, that thing. So as basically the same thing as your phone, except you could text like a Normal human and you will play .

music in his notes. I mean, I don't want to get sucked into the algorithms of social media. All that garbage .

get the algorithms on in. You don't want. I have seen more people fall off buildings, get hit by cars, get shot, get stabbed and just .

not participate in their life, right? And if nothing bad happens, you're too, I mean, listen, and I have a Young children, and I have a seven year old girl, a four year old grow, where is the playground? And I swear there are kids who fall and and I got to go kids, I don't know.

I got to go over and like does them off and comfortable because the mom were dad doesn't even know because they're on their phone yeah, right. That's not parenting. I mean.

like you like playgrounds, man, playgrounds are still a little sketchy. You know, my daughter when SHE was six sheep ke her ARM at school on a playground.

really actually .

she's little old than search. You might have been eight, but yeah, it's playgrounds are fucked and scary men, you know you you're swing around and you're playing and kids fall the wrong way.

And and we're on the Lorry side in new york city. So it's sketching some other ways too. Like you got to be awake, right?

You got to be the learn and just like, and not only that, but you had kids. Like, what do you do? Like, just enjoy this while you can because, right.

this is a tiktok video. More interesting than you're exactly the human that you made. Actually, you guys made humans still fixed me out to this day. Me, you know, yes.

can believe you and made you. I made you, and now you made me. How does that work? Like, we 亚。

i have all girls, they're matter. You for stuff. Like, doesn't you make sense?

Like, you like, okay.

the Youngest right now is fourteen h wow.

So i've got seven and four so right so that things come on okay.

good yeah and twenty oh, i've had girlfriends that didn't matter .

me for things that I didn't think made sense and I was like, okay, well, that's right. That's because you're crazy and you know whatever but I actually like that might .

be in my future. Yes, they're just different. It's just women and girls are just different. And me I think the universe um did me assault by giving me only daughter and me too .

because .

you you have a different perspective. Like if I had a son that because like I got to keep this fuck and savaged of jail, I got that because i'm passing my jeans that kids got ta go to gym. I mean, I got ta get you know what you do to gym early like you ve got to start doing chAllenging things early.

And then also you have to deal with the fact they have a successful father and is a lot of pressure on the kids because know a lot of kids, they try to measure up to their parents or compete with their fathers and some sort change you to mitigate that advance and tell them that you're there for them, you're on their side. You know it's like, yeah, there's a lot with kids, but with girls they are so different. Man, I did.

I just I don't think I understood until I raise children. I just didn't understand how different they are. Yes.

yeah, agree. And I have two girls. I'm thrilled. I mean, it's the best thing that ever happened to me in my life that at meeting my wife like that is just incredible and and partly because their girls and that boys, I am nothing to learn from boys, I already know what that's about. I am what, right? Yeah but girls is just like an amazing and just and wakes up some part of you that was dormant and you didn't know is there and just like it's amazing feeling .

gave pl said that mean, wants that not only did IT change the amount of love I have, but I changed my capacity for love. Absolutely no. Absolutely no.

yeah. It's great way to put it's just completely different experience and I have friends that are just a vowed bacheller. I've never get married. I'm never having kids fuck that and like, I get IT. I know if you've had a bunch of bad relationships, you have a bunch of people that are annoying and there are constant drama dilemmas and all these different things. But men, you miss a different, different phase of life, a different experience of life, is just, it's so humbling.

But you ve got to remember the right person, right? You mean if if you're not with the right person, I imagined being on top of that. That's hard enough just on its own on top of that on yes, parenting with the wrong person .

must be free persons and night night just dealing with .

nonsense .

yeah especially you're not type of person that handles nonsense so well. Well.

what I do for a variety of family reasons, I flat light like if someone's coming at me with something that does not make sense and they really upset, I just go. I just sort of emotionally flat line. I get super rational and and just zero kelvin like nothing and which is a kind of a good place to be because it's not escalator, yes, but it's but i've come to find out that's also exceedingly provocative to do to someone who's upset oh so .

they try to like get in a response out of you yeah .

and I think that your non response means you don't care. Oh, that's a problem and then you're just so screw.

That's also a problem with emotional manipulation. Whether you realize that this escalation of emotions is really just to inside the reaction, it's not the real feelings. That's why it's so exaggerated.

And I think i'm doing relation to put favor by, yes, I was like somebody he's got to say saying in this room, right, right. Or it's going to with the cops again. And so i'm i'm going to flat like the only way to do this because you're making me really angry right now is the flat line and feel nothing i'm going to do us a favor by doing now be superlative and calm and ba ba lah. But I didn't realize like that completely inflaming also in a different way. So you that really isn't a good choice until that person .

figures out how to emotionally regulate. Yeah the good choice that's stay rational and commerce, you can until you can abandon on that relationship unless that person has a just a complete understanding of what went wrong and apologizes and realizes like, oh, being fucked and crazy.

I knew a guy who is my one named his older brother. They both are pretty well Young writers. And his older brother was in a bad relationship of that sort.

And they were walking through a thing was paris. They were visiting paris, and they all the stuff ers at the hotel. This is before smart cell phones.

This isn't like the early nineties, late at something like that. And they're walk through paris and they stopped to look. He stopped to look at that some clothing in a shop front, you know, the window through the window. And he took him some steps to realize that he had stopped and he had kept going. He looked at her and he looked down the street.

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the next internet, or to your copy. Now read on the com. This is my chance. And he just started sprinting, oh my god.

And he sprinted all the way to the hotel, paid the bill, left five on the box, on the bed through a stuff. In the two case, we audit there straight to the airport. That was, wow, they never see each other.

Wow, that was that bad. And the pressure that he must be feeling that allowed him to make that decision, like you must have just been in hell.

I don't think he was just a dick. He might have also been a dick, but I think what one of things that was going on because i've been in relationships that were pretty tough, is that you can even have the breakup conversation because IT goes full nuclear so you don't know what to do, right?

And you've got a fully I support them, I support him that I mean, if he's a rational guy and he's never done that before, that seems like if that is move that maybe maybe you, maybe to you.

And then, then and then he met the right goal, and they had a family. He is great. Dad, no, baba ba, so it's not like he was just a congenital and right? Like, but that was his move in a split second.

The second, I crazy. And no, no cell phone, of course. So there is right right now, you just get you be getting speed died over.

over and over again, right? wow. So he never saw again.

No, oh my god. Oh my god. That's wild. But I must have been a mess.

I like, I love that moment where he looked back like, h she's oh, she's in front of .

the store and .

just really I have I have a .

twenty year head start that is so crazy that such I would support IT, but I get IT yeah i'd like, i've never been that back in that bad of a situation but i've known people that have yeah, you just got us sometimes you just got to do what you have to do to stay alive. Yeah yeah. Like, literally is like bad relationships.

And in bad friendships and bad jobs and bad a lot of things. Can they rob you of your your peace? They create anxiety which creates like physical problems, your bodies, and stress your quarters. All levels get jacked up that fucking with your sleep, which bucks with your health like you're literally robbing your life.

I have a couple of bodies who I love um who are bipolar and I lost one of them. He killed himself in a tragic but the other guy is okay and they're by polar and having a relationship with someone by polar is almost impossible and no matter how much you love them like IT really presents a complicated chAllenge.

And if you're having a romantic relationship with someone is bipolar, which i've done, it's like in thousand times harder from like a buddy, right? And that was I had a couple of those and that is really in some ways the most painful m experiences of my life like and so that was the sort of sprinting from the shop front window. I didn't do quite that but close like because that if someone's by poor, that's like it's also vital that sometimes your .

your only choice yeah yeah the by power thing is well because if your mind works well, you think get tell the person to get .

IT together you know no sense. IT doesn't like what.

but you don't understand like their brains. It's like the chemicals and their brain are all fucked up. Everything's all fucked up. If they can't, it's almost impossible to get IT together. It's like you being on fire and someone saying stake home like how the focus on to stay home .

while you're on fire exactly right with .

lithium that the move that is there anything else that works for those saved .

two people that I know of that I really loved, really close to one one guy and and a woman that I dated, who I later thought out .

she's stabilized on the theme, what is the .

downside of taking the lithium? Oh, I don't know you you're emotionally flat put on it's it's not good. You know by polar you know IT destroys is destroys relationships.

I mean, it's like IT really it's a it's a very, very tough deal. And often the result of trauma, right? I mean, in both cases of these people that I care about there, there were a tize children. So IT often produces that terrible behavior with that, then just refills itself your whole life.

It's absolutely tragic. Crazy thing is even know, like some people even travel, they just get IT.

There's some neurochemical stuff yeah, but trauma is a known prit coral. T like bipolar as an adult.

Like the crazy thing about mental illness is that it's just no one can really tell what's going on in your head and it's up to you to talk to your psychiatry, whatever, try to explain IT and they have to try to like make a map of the territory. But no one knows how you think about things other than you.

And are you an honest reporter on your own export? You're not telling you're sharing about the fight you had with your wife the other night. Are you really being an honest, right? You and what bipolar people do there. So I think on some level, so fearful and well and defended psychological defended that they have a very hard time saying, yeah, my wife out to me the only hand I was kind of a deck and then I can do that. It's all sort of victim centers and the drink doesn't i'm hopefully they see through this stuff, but they don't necessarily know that that's not true.

But there is so many medications that can prescribe to people based on the person reporting a feeling that you can't like see in a test know like if someone says like if you have you know some sort of a disease, they say, oh, we found that you're sick with you safe less whatever is we're going to give you this medicine. And we've got this figured out. We tested you.

We know what IT is with your mind. You know, like if someone says they're depressed, like okay, was that mean? What does that mean? There's no measured, does nothing. So they to say okay to and to figure out what IT is.

And and there are some things that are legit bad, really, really tough things to have like borderline and I my body, I mean, he was my closest friend, he is my brother, right? And and he's the best man at in my first wedding and we were in war, were in bosnia together during the civil war, and just brothers, right? And amazing, brilliant, funny, funny man.

And but he was a lifelong depressive, and part of his brilliance was rooted, and he says in his depression, like IT made, given a certain kind of mind. And he was he, but he he was finally diagnosed with schizo u effective disorder. And one of the problems with this so effective is that they reject the diagnosis, right?

There's like, no, no, you everyone has IT wrong. I'm fine and I have no problem. And if you guys that are don't understand and what i'm up against, right? And so it's very hard to treat because they like border lines.

They reject the idea. Archaism disorder is in another way, they reject the idea. There's anything wrong with them. So it's really, really hard to treat.

It's crazy when someone's weakness is actually like they are strength in their career. Ah you know which is a thing with some creative types like there's a got Richard Jenny is like one of my all time favorite comedians and he kill himself and everyone who didn't know him was battle. They were like that guys at the top of his game that goes everything we all want to be.

He was so good that I went to this club in new york, in upstate new york, or in a long island, rather, each side comedy club. And this dude, a Peter, who is the a MC, was depressed because he worked with Richard genuine weekend. And he was like, he did a new hour every night.

He did a new two hours friday to different hours, two different hour saturday for most of us we have one hour like, well, we're on the road. We have one hour we told that thing down. We tighten IT up. We fucked and we get IT to its like a rock and one this mother fucker destroyed with four different hours on a weekend and Peter was like, actually quick comedy like this is a real that's a real committee on a clock poser this and that I .

killed himself yeah while john my bud like he wasn't a professional comedian, but he could have bit right. I mean, he had that are unbelievable brilliance and just devastating humor and just a crazy, I mean, his he could just, he could just sort to sit there and just ref, right? I mean, he just like and he would go for an hour, and everyone would be like pissing themselves on the floor.

And he just on and on, he went right. Just this brilliant rift that had never been heard before would never be heard again. And IT just flow through him.

And but he was life, I mean, as as a teenager, he said he, he said he was mom. He said, I know eventually i'm going to go myself. He knew that .

as a teenage, my god.

yeah. And he held her off a long time. He had a family to two little girls.

And he was like, he killed himself. why? As girls were Young.

And you know, of course it's hard not to say jump with the fuck, right? Like you kidding and but then I realize none to know that just shows how much pain he was in.

Yeah, they just can't take IT. They can take IT and they .

are worried what they're na do with that pain. Are they threat to their family or they can they trust themselves right there? I think they started to worry about that.

There's an amazing story not that I know that this where john was that but IT could have been there's an amazing story from um the elliot and the auto sy um of ag X I X who drew himself on the sort right and the conventional understand that he was dishonored by academy non and some way that I can't remember and he couldn't. After the trauma of combat and the siege of choy and he lost his best friend, he said that he couldn't stand the dishonor. He had ptsd right in sort of and he throw himself on this sort.

And I sort of looked into the story a little bec, because I didn't quite well. That's a lot of honor, right? I mean, that's like he had a family, he had children.

That's why, would you? So what had turned out was that he had, he was walking on a hillside, and he, in his mind, he thought he was attacked by the enemy, and he drew his sword and he killed them all. And then he realized he had killed a heard of sheep.

wow.

In his trauma, he had mistaken sheep for the enemy. And i've no proof of this. I've never heard, you know, whatever, like i'm i'll standing down if i'm wrong.

But IT occurred to me that what he thought at that moment was, if I can kill a heard of sheep because I think they're troves my families, not safe. No one safe. No one safe, right? And i'm a warrior.

I'm a protector. My job is to defend and protect. And if I think I heard a sheep, our enemy warriors, like I am not safe for my love ones to be around. And he said he was half brother, please take care of my family and then he went down to the beach. He buried the um the handle of a sd in the sad at an angle and in the ran and threw himself on the sort and kill himself .

what's a way to yeah but if you're worried.

you're onna kill the things that are most precious few how can you know also .

when when you talk about child hod trauma imagine childhood trauma in a time where people thought was sd okd what did you say that you what did you say when you were a baby? Did you see your whole life people getting be headed and gutted now and then you're off at war and just .

yeah and when you come back from war, you're not coming back from like landing rounds at five hundred meters against the enemy position, right? I mean, you're coming back with you know people's blood on yeah I mean covered other man blood, right and entrails and whatever you I mean the earlier is, it's like a medical textbook. It's like then he sliced his abm and open and his entrails fell out and he staggered away holding his entrails.

And then they completely bloody, right, visceral. And the literal sense of VISA, right, like, completely bloody, if that's what combat was like. And i'm sure for the native americans, you know, here as well, like IT must have been unbelieved .

traumatizing the guys who did, yes, I mean, one on one combat with sorts must be so insane. And arrows flying and can and balls.

yeah. Now they wear hunting cultures. Like, for example, in north mario, they were hunting cultures, and they were used to budding animals. And the god spilling out, and you be heading whatever, like, I mean, they were used, they were used to that, you know, with animals, with hunting, they were used to blood and guts, literally blood and guts. So maybe the transition to warfare is a is less of a distance to cross. And IT is for a key to grew up in a suburb of boston and then suddenly in afghanistan, and you IT gets intimate and bloody. You the psychic distance that that person has to travel is is quite far and maybe not quite doable.

That's waited, but that's a good way to put of the psychic distance that one has to travel, right? Because I think you get accustomed towards Normal, right? But I think every human being that existed back then was probably in this heightened state of urgency and fear because they had experience sd fights, right?

That's right. That's right.

And also no distractions. You're staring up the stars every night. You wake me up with the morning to sorted.

fed again. Yeah, that's right. E's, that's right. No instagram.

nothing, nothing. Stories are being told by the fire.

Everyone on a flip phone.

You got a fly phone back then. Now you've run everything like, look, I want to call the general yes, right now from the right.

from the trench.

Yeah, what if kids do? I mean, these fucking and kids are filming things now, which is really crazy, the footage that you get out of ukraine right now. So not.

oh my god.

in so not because it's high resolution cell phone camera in video footage.

It's absolutely crazy.

Yeah yeah no. You know, as a person who's been there, um you know when you did restraint and you know you've been to war, what is IT like for you to see these new ones emerge? I mean, i've always hoped that there's going to become a time in our culture in my life where we're not going to be involved in should anymore .

we the human race or the us.

We, the human res, human.

particularly the U S. Well, I mean, here's the thing like I have um know I have some sort of like peace oriented friends, passive his friends. I mean, there's a sort of two different flavors, right? There's a sort of a conservative isolationism and a liberal papp ism and they wind up ironically, in sort of the same place is like war is bad.

We don't want any part of IT like that. It's the convergence is sort of interesting politically but the so sort of left ring people that I know or sort of vietnam, iraq, part of this right. And so in my mind, i'm like listening, you know, if war is bad, avoiding IT isn't the only.

There is a moral case to be made for saying bosnia, which was stopped by very brief to intervention. And you know, you can make a moral case for drop a few bombs, the war stops and then the human life is preserved. Yeah, you you can make that case. But but you know, basically the the for I think for say, for ukraine, peacefulness works.

And it's a wonderful thing to inspire, to serve as long as no one in vase, right? right? And if you knew that no one would invade you in your war, like anyway, you're an assets, right, right? But what you have to do, any society from A A A group of like commentary warriors, the hill country around Austin in eighteen forty or ukraine or the us, or israel, or any any nation, right? You have to figure out how to be a piece loving society that can also defend itself, and that's really and then if you're going to defend yourself, what is your obligation to defend your your allies or your friends or even just on a strategic level um countries where if they fall, then eventually the dominos wind up with you know and I don't know the answers to that, but that to me is like the strategic and moral question is like where is that where is that line where you have to defend something because eventually you're going to be end up defending yourselves.

Yeah, I just when does the human race ever get out the cycle IT? Just individuals as human beings are capable of co existing in harmony. But when we get in the groups, there's always something it's like it's una void an event if you I mean, we have talked about this bunch times, but if you ever ask people in your lifetime, do you think they'll be no war?

No one says, yes. Well, there's always the possibility of a bad actor. It's like, you know what, I want those oil fields, I want those diamond minds, I want whatever like this all and you know we've been that that guy too sometimes, right and um europe a strong jacked up guy who knows how to fight.

And if the world contained only peaceful men, you wouldn't need to be, you might want to be, but you ouldn't need to be right. But you walking down on the street, you know, and your mind, like, becomes, I can defend my family and myself with my hands, like, and I need to know that I can. I'm just reading into your mind like I don't obviously, I don't know how you think, but i'm guessing that all in your mind, you like I can take care of business and my family threatened and and there's there's a security in that.

And if you just knew for a fact that there were no predatory people out there, not one you wouldn't need to be, right? But that's not were social primates and that's not the world that we evolved in. And it's not it's .

never gonna en yeah yeah unless something changes, something really big.

right? And is not going to change overnight now right? I mean, we have the DNA we have we have the cultural wiring that we you know it's it's a so you know all the democracies which are you know tend towards sort of fairness and and peaceful this because it's Frankly good for business, right? And war is not particularly good .

for the stock market unless you are rather .

on right for business, absolutely. But for this, the array of economic enterprise in the world, like what doesn't? What doesn't do the economies much good overall. And the this episode .

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Um so the the the question is like how do you said democracies are invested in stability in markets stability? They've invested in IT because they disproportionate benefit from IT, right? Iraq under husain was not disproportionate benefiting from marketability because there was an impressive the dictatorship, right? The economy suck, that there was a tonic corruption, right? But democracy y are quite, they really do benefit from stability, but all of those democracies are defended by really robust military, right? And if they weren't right, they would get over run like in half generation, right?

Well, that's what scares to shit out of me about today because I think would with A I and with weapons technology advancing in the same expansion al rate as cellphone technology, computer technology is we're getting to this really weird place where it's not just mutually assured destruction because of nuclear weapons.

It's like it's whoever presses the button first wins, right? And so you have this like if you can completely disable a nation's army almost instantaneously, right, and then take over their cities or bomb their cities like inter tane ously. It's just we're relying on good nature, 对 the the understanding that this is a horrible thing to do to humanity to pull that trigger first.

right? Well, there's also this sort of, what do you? What happens when the dog catches the tire? right? right? So if russia had, I mean what the ukrainians, I mean all the politics and whatever I side, just under in a military level, what the the ukrainians were able to do, not quite out matched by the, by the russians, what they have, the taliban, we're able to do with the us, the muji against the russians, all of this, like what the ukraine is able to do against the russians, is quite extraordinary.

The russians really should have taken ukraine in a few weeks, right? And had they, that would have been that was what everyone predicted. I didn't think that was going to happen, but that was what everyone predicted didn't happen. And um the motivation to defend your home is always far greater than than the motivation to invade someone else's home just for the nineteen year old mail like that.

The and motivation is as you know i'm sure from MMA is like super important in outcome right? And um so but had the russians done IT, had they taken how they just blitz cregger all the way through ukraine, seized IT, then they they would have had is the huge, huge and costly problem of um maintaining order uh in in a nation of forty million people, forty million resent for people who did not want to be governed by outsiders, like don't try this at home, right I mean this and so I think yes so you can take out say you had a magic, you know electoral magnetic polls that took out everything in the I mean, i'm just all sitting here ever took out everything that the U. S.

Military realized on to communicate into function. You just disappear out of existence and invaded, right? The russian took, you know, east of the mississippi.

The chinese took quest to the mississippi, or whatever whatever might be. Then you ve got to run this place. And that's when you really have a tactical problem, township by township, mountain by mound, then and then you're elected.

Magnetic poles actually doesn't survey that well. And the afghan I mean, the taliman didn't defeat us. They just have lasted us until we got tired to be in there and didn't want to pay the bill.

Yeah so you're what I when I got reached out to, uh, about you, was that you had gotten through a near death experience, and I really didn't want to read and do IT at all.

Just wanted to ask you about IT.

sure. So something happened. You had an annual ism that burst inside internally? Yes, so does .

yeah so I mean, the short know that the medical description is I had undiagnosed aneurism, which is a ballooning of an ordinary in a weak spot like so I mean, arteries can dilate to get more blood flow. But aneurism is like one specific spot that for one reason in is weak, and IT starts to sort of give way in a little bubble outward. And as that bubble grows bigger, and this takes decades, is a very slow process, right?

I have basically have a ligament, the wrong place, and that set in motion A A vascular problem that resulted in an aneurysm and don't hurt. There's no way to diagnose that mean less you scan, so one's have demand. I'm always been super healthy, and so throughout my life I just never had any reason for an abdominal scan, right?

I'm fit, healthy mail, right? Fit healthy person. And so I just never needed that that look inside me.

So no one saw the anim growing, right. And so at at some point, the artery wall get stretched so far that IT will rupture IT. It'll just burst. And now you have an arterial bleed. So you know what that you know, if someone shoots you in the final or stabs you in the, and you have an arterial bleed, you know your life is measured in minutes or whatever, or hours.

And if someone does you, the favor of stabbing you in the abdomen and severing your pancreatic artery, which is the artery that ruptured on me, it's a low artery thickness of a number two pencil. It's not a big deal. But if it's arterial blood, right? I mean, you don't not stop that.

You're going to die, right? And so if someone just like stabbed you in the abandon, you rush to the hospital, the dog is no problem. The dark, if you're still alive, they'll transfuse you. The doctors know exactly where to sort to put their finger to plug the leak, no problem. The problem with the internal emerich and abdominal emerich is the doctors have no idea where IT is and your abundant is basically a big bowl paige's ti and it's filling up with blood and they have to find what .

where is leading yeah because the .

blood you know, if you're stab the blood going out of your body under the kitchen floor with an internal hybrid at all, stays in your ability. So IT happened. We were IT was during covet, and we were in a remote area, old house that we own at the end of a dead and dirt road in.

And it's so remote, there's no cellphone service. The phone lines are old. And the short out when IT rains. And we had that, my wife and I had a little bit baby sitting at the time at three year old and a six months old, a little bit little bit baby sitting from the teenage girls that lived, lived down the road that we've knew the family. And this year they came over to give us a few hours.

And my wife and I went out to this cabin that's even deeper in the woods and didn't not paradise, basically, right? And so we're out there. And in mid sense, I felt the serpent in my abdomen like, oh, what was that right? Like, not kidding.

Stone pain, but worse than indigestion, right? And so I started twisted in turns, see if I could work IT out. And then nothing helped. And then I finally stood up as, I mean, I can walk IT out. And A, I stood up, the floor is real away from me.

And I almost fell over what was happening as my blood pressure was just like tanking, because I was losing all my blood in my abandon and my body hadn't compensated yet. So I was just like, like, like my head was really right. So I SAT back down and I said, was something I never thought i'd never have reason to say to my wife.

I said, something is wrong and need help, right? You don't want to ever have to say those words right? And your fit unfit and never crossed my mind that I would ever have to say that and least someone shoots me or something right like, but not in my life.

I stopped all reporting I, you know, I give all that gam gambling with your life. I gave you all up. I had a family when this beautiful spot like, are you kidding? IT can come after you here too, right? Who knew? right? So um SHE dragged me through the woods.

Army around her shoulder. I'm still like a stumbling drunk, right? And SHE start dragging me through the woods and SHE gets me to the car and puts me in the passengers cy to the car and and you know work a one hour transport to the hospital.

right?

And i'm bleeding. I'm losing a point of blood every ten or fifteen minutes. My wife didn't know this, and I think that I didn't either.

But I was literally a human hour glass, right? And SHE range SHE put me in the passengers to the car. I'm lying there. Now i'm starting to go blind, right, which is one of the things that that happens when you lose too much but you go SHE ran into the house. This are of electric White, just took over the world, and that's all I could see. Electric White, that's if you bleed out, that's the last thing you will see and um and then darkness, which is what I finally got to, was the darkness.

But um so he made into the house, told the girls, the teenage girls one of them ran out the phone line, didn't work but the girl one of them was able to go one bar of signal like a one spot on the driveway, like one bar and he called the ambuLance and the ambuLance guys came and you go into something called compensate shock if you're bleeding out and the body senses in its in its maculate way a senses that um you know there's a five alarm fire going on here and we got a tighten tipping our game, right? So IT shot literally shuts down vascular like blood flow to part of the body you don't need like your legs in your arms, your skin and that sort of horse, the blood in your chest, your abdin, your chest, in your brain, around your heart, right? Know those things.

Go your debt. So IT collects the blood around there and keeps IT there. Through musculars attention, right? You don't know you're doing this.

But what happens is your blood pressure goes back up and suddenly you sort back in the world. And I was no longer going into out of consciousness. I was suddenly I could see again the amulet guys get there and not like what you do.

And i'm like, well, you know, belly pain, but I don't want to be a complainer here. I'm feeling a little Better. Know, maybe boba by my wife.

And this is why there's a famous statistic. Married men live longer. My wife is like, you know what? Because they're gonna leave me they are like, I was a hot day.

Drink some water. You probably .

just do hode oh, shit my wife is like, now he's going to the hospital. I watched him. He was, he was in out of consciousness, is he? He couldn't stand up.

He was going blinds like, what's to take? Yeah, guys, what's to take to get a guy of the emergency room? So on? Anyway, they took me.

My body stayed in compensatory shock for that hour that IT took. And but I was losing blood, losing blood, losing blood. And then I got to the hospital, and my body couldn't hold compensate shock anymore.

And if I went straight to end stage hammer radic shock, which is your dad in ten or fifteen minutes, right? And I went off of fucking and Cliff a right as we got to the hospital, and I they estimate my blood pressure was sixty over forty, which is like rock bottom. They estimate I lost like two thirds of my blood. If you lose more than two thirds, even if they transfuse you and fill the top you off with you, full component of blood pump red into you.

If you lose that much blood, there's complications that happened with coagulants and all kinds of things like that, that will kill you so you can people can die of blood loss with with a full compliment of blood that we've gotten from transfusions just because this chemical process gets initiated and they can't reverse IT right and that starts to happen when you've lost two thirds of blood, which is right where I was at right ten minutes later, I have been dead and um so they rush me into the trauma ay and the doctors know immediately what was going on and they one dog after had this so a large gage middle and and he started and he asked my permission I know idea was dying right and he asked my permission to sick through my neck into my juggut which didn't look like a lot of fun and I was like, really, is this not? Is this tolly necessary? Like, we really need to do this is like, why in case there's an emergency and you like, no, this is the emergency like, I had no idea, right?

I'm ten minutes from dead. I have no idea. I'm dying zero, right? Thank god. Because I would have been terrified and I would have been thinking of my, my, my family and I, I mean, like, yeah, you want that right? And so he said this is the emergency was like, well, if you say so, don't go ahead.

You have at IT right? So while he's working on prepping my neck and I did actually didn't heard IT all right. So if you ever have to have this done to worry about IT, um they warm lying there and he sort of working on my neck getting IT took long felt like he took other than IT probably actually did but one there of a sudden and I have to stop and say I am an atheist.

I'm a lifelong atheist. I'm a rationalist. I'm not spiritual.

I'm not just a mistake. I'm not wu. I like, i'm nothing right.

My dad was an atheist and physicist. I have to say all this because of what's coming. And i'm still in a there's, by the way.

But so all of a sudden I sencer below me into my left, this black pet open up this black abess, like this infinite black void. And I was getting pulled into IT. And it's not like darkness ness had taken over the world.

The world was here. I could see the doctors. I could. I was talking to them, right? I'm here I am.

But the darkness was contained in this hole that was underneath, underneath me, and I was getting pulled into IT, right? I didn't always dying, but I had this like the instinct of, like a wounded animal. Like if I got one to the pit, the infinitely dark pit, i'm not coming out right.

Like I just sense like don't going there because you're not coming back, right? And I started a panic because I felt myself getting drawn in right. And then my father, my dead father, appeared above me into my left.

Now there's a whole body of inquiry of nd is near death experiences. And I didn't know anything about this stuff, right? I didn't know anything about IT.

I didn't interest me. I'm not culturally prepped for anything like that. I'm not Christian. I didn't see Angels like i'm just, i'm a zero in that regard, right? There is my dad, father above me, right in dead eight years.

I love him, but I was not happy to see him, right? I was like, good. I was shot.

I mean, little. I was dad, what are you doing here? like? And there he was, any any communicated to me.

And so what I saw, see isn't quite the right verb, but I don't there doesn't exist the right verb. I sent slash, saw him, and he was his essence, his energy, his presence. It's not like, I see you.

It's like, oh, there IT wasn't with that clarity in some ways. He was with a deeper clarity because he was his essence right. And there he was. His presence was right there and above me and to my left.

IT was like, quite specific, and he communicated to me again, not with words, but with some matter, that I understood that I can't quite explain what I was. But basically the idea was, you don't have to find that you can come with me all. Take care of you.

It's okay, okay. Don't be scared, right? I'll take care of you.

I was horrified. I was a parent. I was offended. I was like, you're dead.

Why would I want to go with you? You're dead. You're the opposite of what I am.

Why would, why would I possibly want to go with you and be dead with you? He has. I'm alive with my family, right? Like, i'm not going on anywhere with you.

I get out of here and I said to the doctor, you after hurry, i'm going right now. I didn't know where I was going, but I knew I was sort of output. And once that happened, I was, there is no inbounds, but I sense that I said, you ve got a hurry. You're losing me right now.

So what they do.

well, they transfused me. They stabilize me with three units of blood. Eventually I need a ten units, which is a full compliment of what like.

And so let me just pauses for a moment and say, please donate blood. Like everybody who's listening, i'm alive. My daughters have a father because ten people who will never know donated their blood.

And when you donate blood, you are literally allowing another persons to live. And one day you might live because someone else donate a blood. And you know, doctors can't manufacturing that shit like if you donate blood, IT takes an hour, IT doesn't hurt and your body will replace IT in a couple of weeks. It's the ultimate free lunch and .

think it's quicker than a couple weeks.

I think it's pretty quick. It's pretty quick. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to get up to one hundred percent it's I think is a little long. But whatever IT doesn't IT doesn't matter, right? It's like we're talking about human life here.

And if you want to be part of something greater than yourself at boba ba, all these things that we all kind of want, like how we participates, you know, like nobody needs me. I'm not part of anything. I feel only give blood men, then you'll be part of some amazing, right? And you might, so I give blood regularly, so edit, there's my pitch, but so they stuff, stuff blooded me through my jugular.

I stabilized, and they brought me to the interventional, the catholic lab, the venture radiology week. And what interventional radiology is is different. And miracle, right? Like twenty years ago, I have been debt, right?

I mean, even the advances are so asted, so macular ous. So what they do is they put you on something called the florist scope, which is basically seized into you with x rays. But it's x ray video, right? So they can see in real time what's going on in your body.

And then they pop a hole into your femoral from your right code, and they insert a catheter into IT, which is a flexible rubber tube or wire. And because of the way these the heads of these catheters are designed, they can deal low shepherds, crooks and those curves, all the stuff, and they can navigate through your Venus system, through the twists and turns, and they can get that thing almost anywhere in your body. And then once they're there, they can pop a coil and plug a leak, or they can inflate and put in intent or whatever.

They can do miraculous things, they can inject radioactive die, and then they see where he goes, and they turn on the floor scope, and then they can see, uh, the die is leaking into the absent from here. Here's with the leakers. It's amazing what they can do, right? And so they they pop, they pop the entry into my femoral and then thread IT a catheter and third of the catheter after my vino system.

And because of this legging that's in the wrong place, my, my, the arteries of my abad men are very distorted IT, right? And they're tortuous, called tortuous, and they couldn't get the catheter through these twists and turns, right? And they couldn't get IT to the side of the book, which they knew where I was right, and they couldn't get the catheter there.

The alternative, if you can't fix IT with the catheter, is you pull your gear out and you send the guide of the O, R, and you do this crazy like race against time if you cut them open and then all that. One of the reasons the blood loss slows down is so much blood in your abdomen that there's back pressure and IT keeps IT slows down the blood loss from your artery because now it's trying to flow into a full container and IT doesn't leak as fast, right? So as soon as you open up the abdomen, you can imagine what happens.

I mean, you guys are blood, and you know, you got to like, push the organs aside. And is this desperate search for the bleed before you bleed out? And as you can probably guess, IT doesn't go well very often, right? So it's stop quite a death sentence.

But if you go into the O R with an ebdon inal blade, you, they bring your wife and to say goodbye basically before you do that, they don't tell you or hear that. But that's what they are doing, and that's what they would have done with my wife who find, who got to the hospital. The E R.

Doctor was like, you Better come home. And so so at one point, I mean agonizing pain, because i've got all this free floating blood against my my kidney's and my liver, my spain, and just agonis like kidney stones, right? Just, I mean agony.

And they can't sedate me because my vitals are too low, right? So i'm conscious through all this and i'm watching the doctors. And at one point, I watched one of the doctors just started to give shake his head and shrug and was basically like while we tried, this isn't working and the other doctors should not in use.

I get, we tried. And IT was the first moment where I realized, oh my god, I didn't realize this is we're playing for keeps right now. This might not turn, turn out well.

I might not be going home. I couldn't believe what i'd saying. And then the first doctor, who's this brilliant interventional radiologist named doctor filled on brock y, he saved my life.

You have in your mind a special relationship with someone, a man who, or I was anyone who has saved your life is a very particular relationship, and that i've never been in that position before. And so drosky said that we can try one last thing. Let's try going through his left rest. And so what, because of your vasculature, like the left wrist, allows a different point of attack. You come down from above instead of coming up from below, and you don't have to go through all those twisted turns.

And um he had a get through a problematic spot in my silao artery that was impeded by the legal mate that's in wrong place where he was a lot of problems, right? And you had to be like a super high level ir guy to even think of this, much less do you? Like, I was told a very, very few few eventual radios ers would even think of doing this, right? But he was, he was genius, right? So the other doctor said, I liked the way you think and I watch them put up catheter into my left, in my left risks.

And I no longer have a pulsing that rest because IT meses up the artery and and they did IT. They got the thing to the place like they got, they got the catheter to the bleed. They popped a coil in their IT, blocked, blocked the artery, blocked the leak.

And then they sent me to the ICU. They knocked me out, sent me to the ICU. Remember seeing my wife very briefly afterwards, I held her hand and that set me off, and I woke up in the I, C, U.

The next morning. And so the blood in your abdomen do they drain IT?

Is your body abort? No, no. I guess maybe they do. Sometimes I know your body absorb IT. wow. Six points of blood like and you know I could feel IT at me. I mean didn't feel good, right? And you're sort of discovered, I mean, it's like it's awful, not a good luck.

Now the you you keep a saying you're an atheist, but what exactly how do everybody sort defines that differently? Feel like a lot of atheists are actually agnostic more than their atheist because an atheist, someone who just doesn't believe, I don't believe. What do you think the experience with your father? Was that his presence?

Well, that's right then the billion dollar question. right? So now. I'm an atheist, in part because I I respect the the highest intentions of religion too much to take them lightly.

Now there's a plenty of religious expression which is not at a very high level, which I find even offensive and destructive, but at at its best, like journalism, like psychology, like everything at its best, right? It's a very noble thing that that helps people live with more dignity and less fear in baba, right? I think I yet IT.

So I take that stuff really literally. And so for me, believing in god isn't active thing, right and and really it's not like that you found god. It's god found you like, oh my god suddenly god was in my life, right and and it's like when you fall in love, you you can't choose to fall in love, right? It's an overwhelming feeling that you can't resist.

And if it's not, you're not really in love, bro, you want to married Betty, but you're not in love with Betty, right? But when you when you have that experience of overwhelming love, oh my god, i'm in love with that person. I ve gotta be with my life is with them like that, love finding you.

You didn't manufactured and you didn't make an executive decision. Well, i'm in love with Betty now, and we're getting married. I mean, people used to do that.

And IT just isn't love. It's a contract. It's a decision, it's an arrangement.

No problem, right? And what I can do is making an executive. When people say you gotto find god, you gotta find jesus, I listened. Even if I wanted to, which I don't really wanted to. IT doesn't work that way.

I can't just decide to love god is that's not a feeling that you can summer and dictate to yourself so i'm an atheist because I don't god, I don't make god. I sort of part of my daily practice is not part of my life. I just isn't right and I can't just choose to make IT be.

I could fake IT and I could go to church every sunday, but I respect religion in its best form too much to fig fig IT, right? So and i'm not an ignostic because if I saw in my mind diagnostics is like a hung jury, right? It's like, you know what I don't know there could be a god.

There might not be a god. I I don't have an opinion on IT, right? A hang jury, he might be innocent and he might be guilty. We can on our we can decide either way and we can make an argument for both. So it's a hunger you like we can do.

We don't know, right? In the legal system that means he's innocent if you can't come to a decision of guilt that he's understand, right? But so in in the sort of eagles stic sense, like this, evidence for, evidence against, I know I can decide.

So i'm an aggressive, but for me there is no evidence that there is god. I mean, there's belief, right, which is a beautiful thing. But i've never in my life actually seen something happened, was like, oh my god, there there went god, I just saw holy shit.

Like, are you kidding? Like, there is. Like, now I believe there's a god had eye while I was dying, had god come to me, whatever that would even look like, right? Whatever that is, had god come to me afterwards, like, you know what? I don't know.

Maybe there is a god, right? Because I saw some strange shit. And that's the only explanation I can think of, is that there actually is a divine power in the world. I encountered IT. IT changed my life like even if i'm not religious, i'm at least diagnostic but I never this never happened to me, right?

So i'm not an diagnostic because I I just I have no reason to to think there is a god is never happens, right? I'm an atheist, right? So i'm happy to be extend corrected if someone offers up some proof. But IT, thus far, IT hasn't happened.

And when people say, know what the proof of god is, that the universe exists, who created the universe? Mother fucker, I could, do you think IT has to be god, right? And I like, well, not really like, because if complex systems need a creator, and that's your proof of god, clearly god is a complex system that at least as complex as the universe you created.

So who created a guy like that will not get you that doesn't prove anything right? So that's the so the theology the theology aside, like what did I make of my father appearing above me? right? So um.

The next morning to get in there I have to sort of say what happened to me, right? And if I may the next morning I woke up in the ICU to the nurse saying, um good morning, mr. Younger, congratulations.

You made IT like it's a miracle. We almost lost you last night and no one could quite believe you are alive. It's you.

Welcome back to the world. basically. I cannot tell you how shocking IT is to get news like that.

If you had no idea you were dying. I mean, I knew why someone was going on with me belly pain. Maybe i'm going to wake up to shooting news about a tumor.

No cancer, know whatever. I mean, I mean, I was aware that this might not be a fun day tomorrow. My no idea.

I was dying in that moment, right? So it's absolutely shocking ing so that and particularly if you have children, right? And my little girl, I ve immediately thought about my little girls.

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And then I remember my father. I like, oh my god, I told my father last night and the pet right all came back to me and I didn't know what to do with their us chases like, are you Carrying? What was that? And so i'm left there with my thoughts. I'm thrown up blood on a frequent mess, right?

And then the nurse comes back later and says, how are you doing? Like, not that great, Frankly. Like, thanks.

Thanks to you. What you told me is terrifying. Like.

I can stop thinking .

about IT and I almost died and he said, try this. SHE had an awesome boston accent. He was like, point of these. He was out of middle aged lady, like, like, hard to gold, straight shooter, toughness, nails, very three husbands, whatever he is one of those.

I see you dirty, right? I like to enormously, and you would like, try this instead of thinking about IT like something scary, try thinking about IT like something sacred. He walked out like, I have the thing to say that would take the us.

right. So, you know, for me, all those wonderful words like blessing and sacred, you know, they have one, they have beautiful secular meanings as well. So I feel entitled to interpret in my own way. And for me, something secret is anything that allows.

And as I was saying before, any, any, any work, any task, any knowledge, anything that allows people to, with more dignity, with less fear, more connected, more love, that just helps the human condition alone, of that like that sacred knowledge, right? You know, IT couldn't be a minister, right? IT could be a shrink.

IT could be a journalist, right? IT could be, you could be doing sacred work for people. I'm sure you are.

And so what you know, that things that you say are helping people navigate their painful lives. Again, absolutely. We're all capable of sacred work, right? That's what IT means to me. So when he said that, i'm like, okay, i'm going going to front lines my whole life and coming back with knowledge that you know in my in my most grandiose moments, right, I thought might help humanity like what's going on.

And I wasn't in ukraine, but right now, like what's going on in ukraine, what knowledge can we come back with that will help the world, the united states, make Better decisions about how to preserve human dignity and human life, whatever that, whatever that means, right? So that's that's at its best, that sort of a sacred task like many others are. And so, and now i'm not going to front lines anymore.

I went to the ultimate front line. I went to my own mortality, the place, the front line were all headed to, and that most of us are scared of, like. And I was allowed to look over the edge.

And then I came back, I was allowed to come back, that I come back with sacred knowledge, in other words, with knowledge that would be helpful to me and other people lead their lives and with less fear, more dignity at center. And that was the chAllenge. And I said about doing IT at that moment, i've just lay there.

I like, alright, what did I learn? What did I learn? And the big question that I had to answer for myself was, what the hell that I see with my father? Like, what was that? And does that mean that there's something quote, more right? Is there's something after we die that we can sort of like look forward to and count on? Or is this just the dying brain hallucinating some sheet because we're so frequent scared and the, you know synapses are shorting out and it's going haywire and that's what you get.

You see some weird stuff right, like which is and so I started researching and is near death experiences. And there's a whole body of literature, whole body of knowledge, and Frankly, whole cottage industry, so much shameless cottage industry around that. You proof heaven ba ba ba but the flaking, the society, there's some legit, it's very, very common.

And the nd is that people have had thousands of cases of them from all over the world, different societies, different cultures, even different ages, their historical accounts of this. And what are interesting thing about them? If you give a role of people, lsd, that all do, you have a wide variety of pollution tions.

And we know how that works, right? We know what happens in the brain when you take last day. And no big mystery there. And though he listened to hold unch a crazy stuff right with, and is what sort of strange is that the experiences are, there aren't infinite number of them, right? Is not like some people see him.

So which is an other people seek kangaroo, right? Is like they fall into some some like three or four basic buckets, right? And that's across culture throughout throughout the eight history and which are to argue for a sort of seminal a seminal human experience, rather than just a sort of function of brain chemistry and drive and essentially drugs, right, and dogg's drugs being released in your brain, in your final moments.

And so there are a lot of people, very well credential smart people, who are like to listen. These accounts amount to evidence of an afterlife, right? Sorry, like that.

There's so many of them, their sk, consistent. How do you explain this shit? I come on right.

And then there's other people, well, potential, deeply smart, that are like, nonsense. I'm in europe, scientist. I'm an eurocommerce.

Like we could explain all this through you. You put fighter pilots in the human interfuse them to five cheese. They will see a tunnel of light.

They will see god. They will experience their entire life in one moment. Ba ba ba know epileptics same thing when brain seizure, like we can reproduce all of this in the lab like this isn't evidence of anything.

right? But isn't the problem with that that you're actually killing a person when you're spinning in the center?

No, no do with fight pilot.

right? But you know, if you doing that, you'll die. H absolutely.

And your body knows that too. So you are in a near death experience. You're near death.

Well, you're near death because blood not getting your .

and nobody knows that mean you are opening that door. Whether you're opening that door a safe manner, you're still opening that door.

Absolutely you the argument, you're absolutely right, never thought. But the argument by the scientist, the rational, we can reproduce all of this in in the lab yeah.

but it's a dumb argument because what you're doing in reproducing IT is bringing someone close to death.

right? right? Well, another thing they can do is stimulate the brain in during brain surgery. And they do to make sure that they are scooping out, that is scooping out tumor, not your in your piano lessons or whatever, right? And one of things they can do as they simulate certain parts of the brain, they can give people a sensation that they're floating or that they, oh my god, my my grandfather, you know, whatever, they can do weird shit with the brain, with, you know, a tooth, basically tooth pick a bone saw, right?

And so at any way, just device is to say there's there's the sort of slightly mysore argument of this is proof and after life. And then there's this, a rationalist argument. No no, we understand the physiology of all this.

And so there was a guy, and I think that was estonia, and all the guy who fell on his his head had a humm a they put electrodes on the scalp to um see what the brain activity was because he was having seizures other stuff happened to him that the family said, you know, he doesn't have a chance of CoOperating. Pull you basically pull the plug, let him die he had the the electrodes on is on his brain monitoring brain activity before the decision to pull the plug. So they did something that would otherwise not be ethical.

If someone's going to die, you, hey, let's hold him up to see what his brain does. This is not ethical, right? This guy already had that stuff in place as part of the lifesaving measures. So they were able to see what happened at the moment of death, right?

So what happened in the human brain, in his brain, was that there was a flood of, I think he was gamma in his brain that um that is associated with long term memory, a thought of gamma in this brain, right and and that was and one other frequently I can't remember they didn't rate there was this the brain that basically did what brains do when they're remembering very, very old stuff, right? And that they even found that in in rh that they ethically are able to, I cook them up, kill them. What happens in the brain, right? And so the most ancient, the memory source centers of the brain are activated at the moment of death.

While there's a sort of lingering dying consciousness so boom of a sudden your five and you're talking in your grandfather, you know what whatever IT is, we don't know what a specific things that that man saw, but we know that the his brain was activated in ways that suggest memory retrieval right? So the rational is like, okay, the brain dies obviously you see you you have these old memories right so um now the for me as I as I read so I got so I got home so I was a rather kind of love story, but I hopefully is interesting. So I got home.

I was a uh, a week in the hospital was surprised everybody. But the reason I survive at all was that I fit athletic person and so gave the some the just something to work with. IT also meant that I recovered quite quickly.

So stead of three weeks in the ICU, I was five days in that boom out there, right? And so I came home and know it's not the kind of party you would expect, right? Like I came home and I was like, who i'm alive I made a aba.

It's like, oh my god, I almost died on a total ordinary day. And IT could happen again. This also could be the day that I die, right? Maybe I have another any ism like we don't know. And I completely freak myself. I was a classic post trauma like anxiety, panic reaction like IT was all all very classic IT was waived SE than combat weight SE.

right? And but one of the problems I started to have, the sense that I wasn't really there, and then maybe I had died, which sounds freaky, but apparently it's quite common in people that almost die that they get their seized with this fear, that they're actually a ghost and they didn't make IT. I know IT sounds insane and you're write, but I can just tell you, like I insurer had that worry, is the ultimate panic disorder, right? Like that you're deads like, what is there anything bigger to panic about that you're actually dead?

So in the product, the reason I had that, and this gets to another rather mysterious, slightly woo part of this whole story, is that two day's prior, I had no idea, obviously, that I had something that was gona kill me in my aben. Um I no conscious idea. But two day's prior, at dawn, my family and I we still go sleep.

And so we sleep in a group on a pat on the floor, and we sleep as a family, the four of us. And so at dawn on the previous night, night, so thirty six hours prior, almost dying, I was walking by this horrific nightmare, the worst nighter i've ever had and i've ever heard of. And the nightmare was this, that I was hovering above my family, and they were crying in grief, and I was waving to them.

They were crying grief that I died. I was waving to them like, i'm over here. I'm right here. I was shouting.

I was waving my arms and they could not hear me, they couldn't see me, and I didn't know why. And then I was made to understand in the same way that my father communicated with me. I was just a sort transmission of knowledge right has made to understand that they couldn't hear me because i'm debt.

I'm a good, i'm a spirit. I'm not there and i'm above them and i'll be going now i'm out your mr. Younger, you're outbound and you're not coming back.

It's too late. You can go back. It's over.

And I was so anguished that I woke me up and I woke up next to my, I happened to me next to my oldest daughter. I just like, cluster, like a stuffy. I goes, oh my god.

That god. Because IT really felt like I was dead. Thank god I was just a dream. I'm actually here on my life, right? So then thirty six hours later, oh, what's that pain in my abdomen after the hospital almost, almost die?

Doctors have later told me, not the doctors to save me, but other doctors who were, were honest with me. Like, it's a miracle you alive, right? Like this isn't just, oh, good, well done.

It's a frequent miracle. Like ten slicer of swiss cheese, ten hours have to line up and you thread the needed to those horse, right? Like, so I got back home and I was super emotional.

Every time I heard a sir, i'd start crying like, I I mean I was just a freak mess, right and and then I thought, oh my god, I died in my sleep that dream because I started to read about and and one of the most commission that you're hovering above your family, another is that you see a dead relative, right? So like, oh my god and I knew none of this right of my god, that wasn't, that wasn't a dream that was my experience of actually dying, right? The kind of experiences that many people who almost died and were, say, we're resuscitated, report having had I was hovering above my family and I died and I died in my sleep.

My wife woke up next over dead husband. It's over. I just don't know because I have, i'm in the middle, a dying pollution.

I'm a ghost. I'm not here. I think my daughters talking to me, I think she's on my lab. I am not grow. You're not here, man.

You're like, could just face IT right? And you know, you can't disprove IT, right? And if you're crazy enough, IT actually feels like that might be what's happening.

And I was planning crazy enough for this, right? And i'm not a naturally neurotic person, but IT turned me into one for a while, right? No one point I went to my wife like, I just told me i'm really here, that I survived. We're here. We're good.

Like just told me, he said, of course you're here you survived not but my my mind like this exactly what a hlubi ation would tell you right? And um I was inching towards maddy, right? And so so finally to sort long, long, you know long story, just to sort of finally answer your question, I where I landed, you know i'm sure i'm reading the ndi stuff and the sort of like the scared cat in me is like, oh, wow, that's pretty convincing.

Like maybe maybe there is an after life, maybe we don't have to be worried. Like, oh, how pleasant, right? How pleasant to think like that.

There's something to go on to, right? Nothing is scared, nothing to be scared of. And then I, then I read afterwards the sort of like you party poppers, right?

To sort of like the rationalist coming like nonsense. We can explain all this. It's all in europe chemistry like there's no we can after life like come on.

So and because of partly because of the father I I grew up with, like really valued rationalism, like as I oh well nice try. Like you close but no cigar. Oh well, I guess when when we're dead, we're dead.

And so then the one thing that didn't quite make sense was that there is this incredible consistency in people are an enormous percent of the time. And I can't remember all the top my head, but quite a large person of the time, the dying people who don't have andy ease in a resuscitating report, their memories like I was, I was able to. They are received by the dead. The dead come to receive them. Sometimes it's your father, sometimes as a friend who died decades earlier.

Sometimes it's someone that you might not even like very much, but the dead come to receive the dying in the way that my father did you know my mind like, I don't know you know like I get IT you give the they all have halcyons and the dying brain produces halcyons but it's sort of odd, like, okay, you steer up the memory banks of the brain when you die with the gamma, all that stuff so all right, so suddenly i'm five years old and we're playing by the swimming pool now suddenly i'm you i'm camping with my body yet. Twelve but yeah as a whole ray of memories that's different than dad showing up like dad showing up saying come with me into the afterlife that's not exactly memory recall, right? That's that's something else, right? So and then I started talking to hospice nurses.

And um it's super common experience, older people that people dying of cancer in their last days and hours, what are they doing? They are having conversations with people in the room that no one else can see. They're having conversations with the dead who are clearly there to take them. It's okay.

Come with me might happened to my mother SHE suddenly skilled in her last hour SHE skilled and looked up at the corners like, said, what's he doing here? And he had a terrible relish ship with her brother, who had died in his fifties, you know, like decades earlier, right? And I just guessed us like, mom, that's uncle George and he's come a very long way to see you and you have to be nice to him and he found, and he said, we'll see about that.

IT continues into the after, right? It's not over when you die, right? IT goes on the qual today, right? So so these these visits are not necessarily as so the newlin like all the dying, you know sort of need some kind of comfort and the manufacturer vision of a loved one to make them feel Better.

It's not quite that either and and then there's superpower gant stories um I talk to a hospital nurse who who was taking care of an older gentlemen who was dying painlessly you know no more thing did also of clear mind right you know ina's eighties or seventies or eighties and um and in his lasts twelve hours or so he suddenly the nurse that I talked, he said that the man looked and you're like barra oh my god no it's so good to see you like, oh, thank god you know, like, so the nurse who's been through this a million times says, okay, he in his last hours now this is the this is the end game, right? Thank god because he's dying and you know, like needs to resolve and so SHE went into the kitchen where the wife was and said, I think we're in the last stages because he's he's recent you he he's seeing he's seeing someone in the room. He seems very, very happy to see her if someone in barba, does that name mean anything's you? So the wife says, yes, that was this one true love. So of course, the curses, I oh my god, I stepped in IT, right? And then SHE goes, that was our nineteen year old.

oh.

right. I mean, how do you start tell that story and not start crying, right? I mean, it's like, so that kind of story um is super, super common. So in my mind, right? I'm like, okay, I buy the I buy the center refuge. I buy the you know like indigenous emt and the bub up the gamma I I get IT I get IT what I don't understand the consistency of the visions of the dead coming to. And like my father, dad, I mean you you I get that we have luCindy in times of extreme stress, but not that I don't get the content being consistent across cultures, across ages, manners of death, like on and on, like, really like, how do you like? So to me, that doesn't prove there's a quote after life.

But IT raises a legitimate question, like what is IT we're talking about here? And so where I land and I promise I won't like drag us into a long conversation about quantum physics, but you know, basically the rational, the argument that both rational and open minded, and my mind has been enormously opened by this experience, not to god, but too, maybe we just don't understand in the nature of existence completely, right? It's been open to that.

So the rational and open minded explanation for some of this stuff, if you don't dismiss IT, if you don't dismiss IT as just neurochemistry and you're not going to go whole hog and well, you know, god exists that alloa, if you not, can do either those two things, the conversation that I think can be had is maybe there is some sort of post death existence at the center of quanta, meaning the sub omc level that we just don't understand. And some posters existence for the individual, not necessarily post death consciousness. We're not on a hammock with a decree.

It's not like those are human projections, right? But but maybe at the quantum level that we just don't quite understand what death is, what reality is, what consciousness is. And one of the so my father was a physicist and my um just weirdly my grade on had a long passionate affair with stroking her, the physicists to shorting shorting your cat right and one of the mysteries of quantum physics.

And i'm sure you've come into this in your you know in your studies and your research and your conversations, you know one of the profound mysteries of quantum physics that was sort of broken wide open about one hundred years ago by people like shorting her and and eisenberg um that when you observe a subatomic particle, IT acts differently. Then if you don't observe IT, right? So you create basically the act of conscious observation.

You know, I look at that astray. The astray does exactly what he does. If I don't look at IT right in the microscopic world, conscious observation doesn't change anything, right?

At the in the subatomic world, IT changes everything, right? So a subatomic particle and electron is in all positions as a, as a statistical probability. It's in all positions until you observe IT, and then is in one position, right?

If you fire a photo on at two slits in the middle plate with some photographic film on the other side to mark, wear the pat on hit if you fire the photo on and a plate with two slides is the famous double slit experiment. Fire the photo at two slides and monitor timely monitor IT with a photo detector while it's moving. IT will go through one slit and hit the strike plate on the far side with a signature of like passage through one slight right. If you fire a photo through two sleds and don't monitor IT, it's simultaneously goes through both slides and leaves a signature on the other side of having done so, right?

In other words, and this is that one of the deepest mysteries of of existence, right at the quantum level, our act of observation creates the reality that we are observing, and that if we don't observe IT, it's another reality, right? So given that deep and unresolvable mystery is IT possible in the sort of like the electrons in all places at once until we watch IT, and then is in one place, in that to the basic sense of a profound mystery at the quantum level, is IT possible that there's an equivalent mystery around biological death, the existence of consciousness, which people still don't understand, right? I can't have been defined what IT is exactly right.

Um is there a mystery around that, what that we not only don't understand, can't understand? And one of the theories super out, and i'll end with this, but this is a super out there theories called bio century. He's a guy name item lanza that you might be interested in target to is a brilliant guy um he's one of the sort of pioneers of centuries.

And basically what he saying is a look if consciousness determines reality of the quantum level and the universe ultimately is a quantum is a quantum reality um it's possible that consciousness is part of that there is a subatomic particle associated with consciousness just like the higgs boston is associated with gravity. The gravity exists because of the higgs boston. It's a sub atomic particle that we can measure, right? And maybe consciousness is a social in the same way as part of the physical existence of the unit. Without gravity, there is no universe, there is, there is no nothing, right? It's essential to existence.

And maybe consciousness is essential to the existence of the universe in the singular form that IT takes um and he was and IT landed in the single form with the arrival of conscious ness maybe it's all one in the same thing and that actually coincides ed quite nicely with shooting her um who was of the opinion that there was a universal consciousness, there was a kind of colosse of consciousness, that we are all a tiny part when we die we return to IT right on some quantum level that no one has any frequent idea. As I say in my book, we might understand reality about as well as a dog understands A T, V screen like with absolutely no concept of the machinery, the mechanism, the processes that produce, the flickering images that are in front of us. We might like the dog doesn't have that understanding of what it's looking at. We might not have an understanding of of the Cosmos creates the system that creates the reality that we are seeing and that we think is existence.

Yeah i'm entitle to believe that we are entirely to um arrogant in our understanding of what we know and that we have a very limited amount of information even though it's incredibly complex for our understanding for our understanding the leaps and bounds we have mates since using leaches to treat diseases is off the chart, right? And you are living testament to IT, yes, but I think IT is a very, very shallow understanding of an infinite thing that's happening all the time. Have you ever seen they? They just recently made images of quantum entangled photons?

No, I mean, I know about quantum tanglement ment.

Another great mystery. I see. Im, action, distance. You take a look at what this looks like.

Quantum entangled photons look like a in yang, like exactly, also exactly that. That's a quantum in tg, oh my. G, oh god.

So each one contains the at the center a bit of the other, exactly.

So maybe someone knew this thousands and thousands of years ago. The idea. The chinese are whoever created that initial symbol.

The idea that they just stumbled accidentally upon the an actual image of quantum tangle photo, very, very unlikely. That just seems too insane and too amazing. That's fascinating.

fascinating.

right? To find that out. When was that discovered to me? Was that very recently I saw in some science here.

okay, tangle man has been around for decades. Those images are that's stunning. Unit, that's amazing. yeah.

So I think this whole thing that all we know what's going on the brain, all we know that human neuro chemicals that get, oh, we know we can stimulate the brain, all we know we can stick you in a center fuge. You don't know, shit, you, you. This is a, we are at the edge of a vast forest, and we're peering in, and we're arrogant.

And we're arrogant because the people that know no more than everybody else, the people that do have an understanding of human neurotic chemistry and do have understanding of how the body works, no far more than I do, no far more than most people do. So they have an arrogance of this understanding, this rational sort of reduction, this perspective of what reality is that. I I think it's nonsense. Well.

the physicists to give them, they do. They they are the range of science which is actually fully aware of the the drop off where the mystery begins.

Knowing the mystery begins, they could not explain this stuff, what IT happened, and actually unsettled those guys shorting or shore einstein and and ison burger all is really quite unsettle them, right? They were like, wow, what are we unfolding here? do? And are we sure we want to unfold this, uncover this? And once or Arthure edson said this wonderful thing, he was asked about these source central mysteries of quantum physics in the universe and um and he said.

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something, something that we don't know is doing. We know not what. great. So there's some humility right now, right? And at its core, quantum physics, there's there's a mystery at the core of quantum physics equivalent to the mystery at the core of religion.

The end of the day, religion is an act of faith, right? And you can answer these questions right? rationally.

And at the end of the day, the physicists themselves will say, look, we just don't know these, these, these test results make no sense in the microscopic, rational world that we live in everyday. You cut the macro scope. C in the subatomic world, they, they make the, they're completely opposite to each other. They make the laws. Laws of physics are completely different at the microscopic level and in the service chemic level.

yeah. And you know just the fact that if you look at atoms themselves, it's mostly empty space. Yes, I what fuck is going on? There's all of this.

We have a cursy, a cursy understanding of something that's infinitely complex. We have an understanding of that and far greater every year. And they keep they keep expLoring. But I think we're also cursed with these fuck and primate brains.

You know, these primary brains that we are ready talked about today are filled with flaws and childhood trauma by depression and schizophrenia and all these different issues with the primate brain. And we are the dog looking at the television screen. We are.

And I think i've talked to a lot of these doctors that have this reduction is perspective and um very few of them of that psychiatric experiences. I think I think the brain is capable of opening up the door and I think that door opens when you die. And I don't know, work and doors a bad word.

Uh, it's not the right word. It's but it's all have it's an opening. It's a gate. There's something going on inside of us. There's something going on.

We are inter connected in ways that are far greater than our understanding of human social interactions. There's something going on with us and that we experience that with love. We experiences that with the love of, you know, your wife, for your husband that will love child or your family members.

We experience this connection that is like this is very different. IT connects us like as souls. And that's what I think i'm get into.

There's I think the soul is real. And I I really didn't have that that thought really. I was pretty, pretty eighteen. I grew up. I was went to cat the school when I was very Young for first grade and had a really bad experience there. And just as like religious bullshit, my parents were breaking in up.

But I was Young and I was, I got really in the religion, and because I felt like religion, at least like there's chaos in my family life, you know, there's always god, like god going to make sense. Then I went to cat at schools, like, okay, okay, got has nothing to do with this. Like this is for and ridiculous.

Then my grandfather died. I was very close to my grandfather. I loved him very, very much. I stayed with him when I moved to new york, and I was, like, twenty three years old, and I didn't have a place. I didn't any money.

I just got signed by this manager, and I was going to to go to new york to do stay in the company, go to chase my dreams. I was living with my grandfather, and he was, my grandmother had an annual ism, and they gave my grandmother seventy two hours. And he lived for twelve years, at least twelve years.

I might have been a little longer and um she's bad written and H I was staying with him in her and my grandfather had been dealing with his wife dying for all these years and uh he would like moon and pain you'd hear like make these sounds and I knew they were they were he was old and he was old. They were dying and knew he was going to die probably quicker than him. And IT was this transition in my life from me like going forth on this great adventure to seeing this man that I loved.

And his darkness was like, yeah, his wife, my grandmother, was bad writing. IT was agony. IT was depression. They lived in a very bad neighborhood. They lived in a north nine street in york, new jersey.

When they look, when they moved there in the thousand nine hundred and forties, IT was an italian neighbourhood. And then they started doing this thing called block busting. And what block busting is, as they would, real state agents would come in and they would say, black people and moving your neighbor.

D you have to sell now. You don't sell now. You're going to lose the value your home.

And it's the way they like they fired up the real state market and they they crushed communities as well. Chances and. My grandpa was like, I like blank people.

I'm not going anywhere. And he never moved and he stayed there. IT changed from a black neighborhood to primarily hasped ic neighborhood.

And when I was with him, when I stayed with him just before, like just before after I got there, I can't really remember thirty years ago um the kid next door was selling crack and police broke down the door in the head and aud remember he had an aud in the driveway I so a nice car, you know, nineteen ninety and. IT was his bad. Everything was is a very depressing IT was a depressing, depressing space, like the neighbor hos depressing.

His life was ending, you know, he he was very, very sad. And when I went to his funeral, when he was in the casket, i'd looked at him, and i'm sure you've been a funeral before, and I know you've seen dead people before, but there's something about seeing a dead body. What you like?

He's not there. Yeah staker.

he's not there is not as simple as you know. He stop moving, right? No, he's not there. He wasn't there anymore.

Yes.

and remember. Remember, this feeling of like understanding came across me like, oh, like the thing is inside of you. Whatever that is is real.

It's not just as simple as you're alive. And I at that moment, at that moment, I seeing my grandfather in his casket. I started considering a soul.

I started like, this is simply shit. And then I started think, like how arrogant is. Assume that you know that all these people for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years have talked about souls.

It's it's a universal idea. It's not common to one specific culture. It's not isolated. It's a universal concept of there being something inside of you.

And I think it's I think it's something that we intuitive ly understand that we know we we we are aware of IT. We know it's real. Yes, we just can't put IT on a scale.

We can put a rule around and measure IT. We can't. But this is a thing.

And I think that thing, it's intertwined with consciousness. That's what I think. This is just my own feeling.

I think your soul interacts with conscious ness. And conscious ness is a force. And I think we're all experiencing conscious ence.

We're just doing in this weird way, we're doing IT with different biological entities, different life experiences, different people and stimulate you around different neighborhoods, different parts of the world. But it's the same thing. And the way I ve described as like, I think that you are me.

I know IT sounds like it's like hip nonsense horse IT, but I think if you live my life, you would be me. And if I lived your life, I would be you. And I think we are all people.

I think all people are the same. We are just living through different genetics, different biological experience, different biological filters, different life experiences. I think we're all the same.

I really do. And I think that what your soul is is your connection to consciousness. I think you are thing the thing that in in, in that you intersect with.

And I think whatever we are, there's like a place that that thing goes, right? And I have a feeling that that's what these near death experiences are, that's with what a lot of academic experiences are. I think it's a looking it's a looking into the other side, and I don't think all these cultures have had the same idea by accident.

Yeah structurally, like at their core, they're probably similar there there the realm of the dead.

right? And so I think there's also a very limited there's there's a perspective of what god is and there's A A perspective of the universe itself like, oh, who made the universe if god didn't make the universe, who may god? I think we are limited by our our own biological perspective, which requires a birth in the death, a beginning in an end, and that there has to IT has to come from somewhere.

I don't necessarily think that's real. And I I have a feeling that this concept of a god is even greater. What IT entails is even greater than an entity. I think it's all things I think what god really is is the universe. I think IT is all things right?

Well, that's bio centric is one of along those lines yeah it's .

all one huge thing yeah I i've come to this thought like in steps over time their word is makes more more sense. I am not trying to comfort myself. I'm not looking for some sort of rational.

That's not what i'm doing. I'm just I feel like all these cultures have this idea for a reason, right? And I don't wickets.

I think we're tuning into IT in these little blips and were bringing back evidence from the other side. We're bringing back stories and anecdotes and feelings that you get in tutus tion. You know, things that happen at certain times in your life where you just like, okay, what is that? What is that you I think we all know also that if you if you have loving your life in you, you love your friends and you have good times, like there's an elevated feeling that comes with that, that's bigger than just fun. There's like there's a there's a bond that we have because it's the moment in these great, these great times of love will we recognize that we are one that's right.

You lose your the shackles of your .

individual ego, lose your biological limitations, the bio, this champ body and chap, mine, they wants to keep you alive. They wants to make sure you spread your genes and control resources and do all the stupid things that humans do. That thing confuses you, that that's what life is.

There's there's a cemetery of veterans cemetery in the woods near in the town where my mom used to live with. My mom passed away, obviously, and i'd go running there. And it's a beautiful low spot so hidden away there's a gravestone of a war two vet who died later in life fighting, lived the natural life and died in the eighties.

And a very simple grave stone I can't member's name, I wrote IT down and IT at all says, is all that survivors of us is, love is so beautiful? Yeah, right? And I think in I think that's right and you don't need to be religious to think that way. You don't have you can be whatever. It's just like such a profound truth .

like that's all the survives yeah and I think a lot of religions are simply people's effort to try to consolidate all these thoughts and feelings into a doctrine. Do something that you can tell people that you have the answer, and whenever someone tells you they have the answer, well, that's impossible, right? That's impossible.

So you don't have the answer. But there might be wisdom in these ancient teachings that I think is real, right? And I think that's really what fascinates me about religion. Its, its ancient man's attempts to understand and define this thing with this monkey mind .

that we have, right? Sometimes people ask me, so how did this change? You know, did you find god? No, I didn't. I did change me.

And one of the ways to change me in is that I realized, even if you're in good health, even if you're not a word zone, baba, but that we don't know, none of us, none of us know that this is not our last day brand right now. I must know. I mean, probably not, hopefully not.

But we don't know for sure. June sixteen, twenty twenty, was an ugly, ordinary day when I woke up that one. And no idea. I was really slated to die in twelve hours, right? No, no clue.

And so if you somehow knew you that you were going to die twelve hours, somehow knew that, who would you want to be that day, right? right? I'm guessing you wouldn't be scrolling through instagram.

I'm guessing you wouldn't be wasting your time. Hate nine people that pistol wave. I'm guessing you'd be just holding your loved ones close and just being amazed at how beautiful a trees or I don't know what right.

Like it's almost a religious vision of what existence is. I think I would inspire that. And so so my question is like you don't know that today isn't your last day. So who do you want to be today, right? Because you never know.

So who do you want to be in the world? And hopefully day after day, you're that person and then you don't have to die at the end like what a beautiful way to live and that so it's sort changed me in that sense. I saw after I finished the book, I I read A, I read a story about dust oski, the great russian writer who suffered a mock execution when he was in his twenty years.

I mean, what a statistic thing to do to a Young person or anybody, right? So he was, he was a radical, you know, like he and his sort of like radical friends was around talking about outrageous stuff, like liberating the surface and crazy ideas like that. And this isn't the eighteen forties, and so are Nicholas the first know what? Didn't take that kind of thing kindly.

And the police arrested the mall, like six of them. Through women, jail wasn't a particularly serious crime, right? But through women, jail is, is, is.

Arrest russia, right? The press in a pressure state, right? And after eight months, they finally released them.

And these Young men assumed that they're going to be like, put the wagon and driven to the courthouse and discharged to return to their families after eight horrible months, right? Like, okay, they put in a wagon and they're driven to a city square. They only had minutes to adjust to this.

Instead of being released, they retired posts and a firing squad was lined up in front of them. And the order was given to the soldiers charged rifles, ready aim. And at that moment a writer grouped into the square and said, desire for gives them.

Okay, so so the you know the question, my question would be like whether the world look like like how how lucent, a tory is IT if you know that you're going to be dead in seconds, what does the world literally look like to you perspective? Because where all does stay up skii, right? I mean, the command of fire isn't maybe in three, five seconds IT might be in fifty years.

But we're all waiting for the right. We're all getting the command eventually. So what does the world look like to someone where all that their whole lifetime is compressed in a few seconds? What's the world look like? We should understand that vision of the world and incorporate IT to some degree into our experience of our hopefully fifty, eighty and ninety years of life.

right? So this is intensive capsule of reality. Like, what is what? What did he see in those moments? Because he wrote about IT. This is valuable information.

Like, what's the world look like? What's IT really look like when you're about to be torn from IT right? And um so he said he was standing there and he saw sunlight glinting off the steep of a church and he had this amazing thought, which goes to your point right, is amazing thought.

He said in moments i'm going to join the sunlight i'm going to be part of all things, were all part of all things. And in minutes, that's where, that's what i'll be. And then he said, if I should some in his mind, he thought, if I should buy some miracle, survive this, i'm onna, live my life, turning every moment into an infinity.

Mind blowing, right? So two of the six men in that group, IT broke them. They were insane for the rest of their lives.

Does a ski. He survived as psychologically, and IT deepened him enormously. And he and he wrote through other characters, he wrote about .

that experience, you have, you have knowledge, your death. You know, what I used to do this bit about there is A A, A tiger attack in same for cisco. And like the guess was like the early two, thousands of some of these kids were throwing pine cones at a tiger in in an enclosure in the zoo and um they didn't know that the tiger when they built the zoo that they made the fence fourteen feet high, thought that was enough.

It's not enough. You have A A the joke if you have a monster in a box in the middle city, maybe you put a fuck and roof on the box. Like, how expensive is IT to put a cage on the top? Well, these kids are throwing things at the tiger.

The tiger lips, lips up, gets a hold, the top of the fans. And the thought was like, if you're that kid and you see those pause, hit that fence and you see that thing like flying to the coming right out, you do you even see IT? Or is this just like this collider scope of psychiatric images as this?

You know, it's over like you're looking at the most beautiful death that's currently available. It's the most beautiful animal that can kill you. A tiger mean they're gorgeous and they're also terrifying at the same time and it's running at you like a psychological experience.

They died. Yeah one guy lived. I think, I think one guy lived.

I think unfortunately, the kid is thrown in. The pine coins lived. I don't remember, I don't really remember the whole story. One died to survived. Yeah, okay, to survive.

And they had to kill the tiger.

Of course, they always have to kill the tiger because they went tiger and did what I mean, look, I fucked and hate those. I used to take my kids to him because my kids loved them. But they're fucked in prisons.

There are prisons for animals that didn't do anything wrong. Last time we went, we're in there, was in denver, and we were returning towards this primate section, where they have all these monkeys in these cages. And this monkey is waling just screaming in agony.

Just what like a crazy person locked up in a cage. And my bad, poor mother fucker, like, what are they doing to him just so people could stare out and go, oh, there IT is. Oh, there IT is.

And tigers are natures balancing system. You can have too many, dear. So you have to have tigers and access.

Deer are the kind of deer that live around tigers and one of you were senior access, dear, they're beautiful. They have White spots over the body and they moved like bullets. He never seen an animal move that fast um access here.

They just fucked and go because they just always looking out for tigers. So these animals, timed by nature to be chasing things and killing things, that is literally its biological reward system. That's what here for. That's why it's six hundred pounds of fucking and tissue and talent.

And what we do, we give IT cold meat that they push out on a platter, and they just eats the meat IT doesn't get to kill anything and then things stare at IT and look at IT in the eyes, which is fucking insane that um you ever look at tiger in the eye in the wild you would be fucked and frozen in fear. And this thing has to endure other pi little things, throwing stuff at IT over its fans. In this universal carmike moment, IT realizes that they can get them.

There's an amazing poem by ted hues called wolf watching wolves are course equivalent to tigers, by the cane to tigers. And he goes to the zoo and looks at the wolf and the poem wolf watching is is worth looking up is just one of the most extraordinary poems about exactly what you're talking about and the look at the wolf's eye and what he knows you're doing to him yeah and he's superior to you and he know I unbelievable poem ted hues of watching you got seriously like look at up.

Yeah, yeah, we're bizarre. We're bizarre with this whole buckin zoo thing. The zoo things very weird. It's like, on one hand, IT helps preserve a diminishing populations of some animals. You know, they do do that. But in the other hand, like why do you have a polar bear in a fcc and swimming pool in the middle of .

what do you doing?

They go crazy. They just go in circles, pair and enclosure around irs.

Crazy to solitary can find. I mean, yes, you know people can't take IT you know like IT drives .

IT IT breaks their brain yeah yeah beyond. You you keep saying like the word like i'm an atheist, do I believe got why even but even have a belief. I don't I don't have anything anymore. So but you still consider ourself an atheist st and a theus is someone who doesn't believe in a god.

right? I don't have that believe.

So you don't believe or not believe.

I mean, not believing isn't an active, right? I mean.

what you don't know, right? This is why, this is why the atheism thing usually can't drives me not to the people like when people say there is no god, what?

Well, that's not atheism, right? Atheism is that I don't believe in god. It's not claiming to build the proof .

that there's a little more arrogance. There is no god. I rather than I don't believe in a .

god and you can't make yourself believe in something right, right? So if you want to tell me the gravity doesn't exist, I can't make myself believe that right? And I can't make myself believe god exists, contrary to, despite the complete lack of evidence that he does, or sheet up whatever.

Like I can't force that that belief right in my site, even if I wanted to but I would never ever say, oh, there is no god yeah I would never assert that right? And I would not even I wouldn't say i'm magnolia like I don't know one where or the other wouldn't even say that I would say I don't believe in god. I don't run my life according to a belief in god.

George Peterson says, whether not you believe in god, if you live your life as if god is real, you'll live Better life.

Well, periphrase.

that's essentially what he's saying. Well.

he's exhorting people towards more behavior. We just totally fine, but you don't need god .

to be like you don't need god.

We are some some people might and some people need laws to not rob back.

I think the the concept of IT that we're all connected in some way that's greater than just this life experience is what what that's the foundation of this understanding of IT. Well, if I said then.

what I would say is because soon as you say god IT presents, right, some logical problems, I would say, live your life as if you believe in a universal unity, a colossal unity. Yes.

I think the word god is the problem. It's just been kind of corporate and he gets coated ted by visuals of like a person, you know, page article leader who's in the sky with a buck and book of all the ship he did .

wrong yeah and that's a silly I mean, I was so, you know, a guy raised his hand at one talk and he was quite essenced and that I was still said I was naither ist right and said I was quite, you know, he came right at mate, right? And you know, atheists don't I mean, I don't care if someone's a believer, like, why would I care and what you you know like. But but often beliefs are quite upset.

There are atheists, which is bizarre mizar que of the psychology that I understand. And anybody raised his hand, he said, he said, you know, you're only alive because of god's Grace, and you you have to be thankful, you have to find jesus, and you have to be thankful to god for saving you, because he was only his Grace that saved you. And I said, you know what I flat lined, right? I did.

But like what I do with upset people, like I didn't get emotional, I went to zero, you know, zero calvin. I I know my problem with that is why me like why me are not tim tim fathering tim was my body at at restrainer the guy I made the movie rerun er with, he was killed in combat in libya. He died like I did he bled out except he blood out from an annual m from a strap, no bound in his groin right? So why why me and not him right? And for that matter, why me not a nine year old with cancer like and what you're saying.

So what you're saying is unless you can answer that question, which I don't think you can, what you're saying is that there's actually a kind of random lottery for god's Grace and know that the way he runs things, I don't want anything to do with them because that's cruel, right? And so so that's my that's my quibble with the word god, but universal unity, i'm good, right? shorteners.

You know, it's good for shopping is good for me, you know, whatever and and so you know I would. I don't know the violence of the emotions around all this is puzzling to make. Like I don't understand why people get so heated about what someone else believes.

Well, people get heated about everything. If, you know, I have a conversations with people that are just democrat ATS to the end, that's my team and with the raters, you know, and that's that's just how IT is with everything. And people are that way with religion there, that way with the state they live in the football team they support, they're that way with everything.

That's just humans.

It's just some prime now. And I think the real discussion is in what what how do you feel? Why do you feel the way you feel and what do you think? And what do you know that has sort of educated these thoughts?

And you know, if you believe that human beings are inherently bad, and then only a fear of a fear of hell and a fear, Frankly, if not a love of god, a fear of god will make you act. Well, if you really think that's what humans are, then sort of religion makes sense.

But so for me, for example, all I am assuming for you and most people that I think we probably know, like I don't murder people and rob banks and things like that because i'm afraid to go to jail. I refrain from doing those things because I don't want to be someone who does those things. I have my own internally about what that means to be a good person, to not be african psychopath like I.

I mean, I don't want to go to jail either, but you don't need the laws. You don't need the courts to make me act well in that sense. So if you need god in order to like not rob banks and kill people and rate people, brought you got a friend problem, right? right? You're still a problem. Even if you don't do those things because you're scared to god, you're still not a person that I trust.

Yeah no, I I, I share that perspective. I think what this whole thing is for a lot of people that one of the problems with religion in true believers is boy folks. There's a lot of different versions that story and you got to make sure you're bet on the right one because there's a billion people that don't think you are and you are smarter than them.

Like I think it's people trying to get a map of what this is all about, right? And I think it's been that way forever. I think people have always tried to figure that out, and they have little bits and pieces and were put in together.

And unfortunately, we also like to look at these things as if there, like this doctrine, is one hundred percent factual. I've seen muslims do IT. I've seen Christians do IT.

I've seen jews do IT. People have this, this belief that their way is the way, is the only way, everyone else is the other, which seems contrary to the word of god. Although the real thought, the concept of this inner connected thing that we're experiencing, I think it's, I think it's all way weirder.

I think everyone scared to die, but no one scared to sleep cause, you know, you're gonna come back. Yeah, but you do IT every night. Every night you go to some crazy police. You shut off and you, you, you return.

And you assume because you have memory and because you have an understanding of the environment and you have a task that you have to do up, got to be a work by now, you have all this stuff. And you had you're assuming, just assuming that as you woke up today that this is your life at fifty six years old, continue along the same path. But IT might not be.

It's just guessing. We're just we are where we are. Our eyes closed and we're feeling through the darkness yeah and we don't know and we give ourselves these rules and we give ourselves these stories, we give ourselves these religious practices to put structure into this thing and to put certainty into this thing that is absolutely uncertain.

And we get angry if someone questions our certainty, because our certainty defines our ability to exist in this experience in a way that keeps a sane, like god has a will. God has a plan. This is all I think it's way weirder.

I think it's way weirder. And I think that's what you experience when your day came to you, and that's what experience when you look down at the pit. I think I think the whole thing is way weirder.

I don't think it's as simple as why would god take a child and give IT. I mean, I think the whole thing is. And uber complex interaction of emotions and experiences, they were all going through simultaneous ly. And I have a feeling that part of the thing that moves us forward, unfortunately, is negativity. And the the positivity battling against that negativity with strengthens the positivity because of the resistance, I think, like the evil of the world, is almost like an important factor in the whole equation of our existence.

Yeah, and I I think humans have always struggled with that. They've come up with theories that sort of like help them get by, and some of them even support human dignity. Some don't.

And and here we are, with the great still surrounded by the great mystery, great mystery. And you know what? Like, let's hearing for the great mystery. Like if you think about IT, this thought came to me the other day like we're in a kind of sweet spot. So if you sort of new for sure that we could, if the scientists could prove, or if the nerds could prove that there wasn't after life, and what you got to do was just more of the same, except it's a lot more pleasant for eternity if we could prove that IT would strip the value out of these precious decades that we are a lot of right.

One of the reasons that life is so precious because it's so finite, right? So if you could prove there was an after life, we don't worry about IT like you're going, okay, your wife dumped to you and baba baba, you don't don't worry about IT because soon after I gona start and then you're good forever so just don't sweat IT that why you just kill yourself right now and just get on to IT because that's when the good part starts, right? You would ruin what life is he would just stripped of value.

And the other hand, like um the two other guys in dusty of ski's group of friends, if we could prove like literally prove scientifically that there is no afterlife and you can't prove and negotiate but somehow we can prove there was no after life whatsoever were biological beings when we die that we brought, we return to the soil that's IT done. If we could prove that that might be so psychologically devastating that that that would be actually quite hard to lead a meaningful life because you're your mind to think and well, what's the figure point right right where we're at right now? There's the perfect level of ambiguity that there's not such a proof after life that you why bother leading our lives.

But there's also not such a um such a doubt about IT that is psychologically devastating. We're in the sweet spot which allows us to sort of invest maximum meaning in the least amount of psychological distress in these decades. That were a lot, ted. So a weird way where we're out right now is the sort of tuned perfectly as of the human brain for giving the maximum amount of meaning to this time that we have here on earth. And if you go in the extreme of either direction of absolute certainty y that there is an after life or is no after life, if you go to that extreme IT actually just a robs us of what we do know for sure that we have, which is this life right now, right?

And that's part of the magic of IT, right? The magic of IT is the uncertainty, the, the, the temporary nature of the, the finite nature of existence.

all of IT. Yeah and the reason carl Marks hated religion is because basically the peasant class had been told doesn't don't worry about that your just you're lots sucks right to service like your lost socks you repressed your poor baba but but don't worry about that because there's them after life so and march is like theyll never be revolution as long as people think that once they die everything gets nice right and that's that's why the mark hated religion .

and it's so totally these legitimate point yeah it's a legitimate point but you think not even that is like there's too much we don't know and it's too hard to not know things so we pretend right and the version of .

religion that he was rebelling, and yes, is like, look to make shall inherit the earth right right? You're crust under the book heel of SARS the SARS bo heel here in life but the Michael l inherit so just wait a while and then it's all going to come to you. Like that's what Marks wasn't objecting to sort of like transcend not knowing transient mystery. He was objecting to a completely calculated and manipulative like um uh social program that kept people are pressed, which is often times .

what religion becomes, particularly people of groups of people that they control. They are power like ging is gone famously let people practice any religion. They wanted people like always so open minded. No, that's not what I was. He wanted order and he's like, yeah believe that I believe that .

yeah that's right. That's right. He also apparently just screw his way across asia because I think it's eleven percent of the population in the areas that he conquered are directly descended from him. His DNA. Yes, eleven percent.

He killed ten percent of the population .

of the .

planet and replaced. We did mean in his lifetime because of his actions. Somewhere we train, fifty and seventy million people died. Is so many that you can, you can see when they do core samples of the earth, a difference in the carbon footprint of human beings? Yeah the areas that they devastated the forested to the point where there's a difference in the level of carbon, yeah that's how many people are killed.

There's a famous story, dad, carl's hardcore histories is amazing podcast and he has this uh series called the rap of the con. And one of the stories they talk about the Christmas and shaw who goes to visit a gene china. And they think what they see in the distance is a snowman vee peak.

And as they get closer, they realized that it's a mountain of bones, and they're killed over a million people in the city and piled them up on top of each other. And they had to abandon their, they were polling waggons. They had abandoned the roads because the roads were so mocked up with decaying humans that the roads become muddy.

You couldn't reverse them to. So many people are rode in decade in the roads that IT became mud. That's insane. But he was really open money when he came to religion, and he opened up trade to the east. Like there's a lot lives yeah did a lot of and lot of murdering and horrible torturous murdering and like you, the stories, it's just like what just what we know just about how about the way they hid his uh, burial site? Yeah you know that that story yeah they fuck and killed everybody everybody who went and buried him, everybody who killed the people who buried when they killed them, they they killed thousands of people just to protect the location of his grave into this day. Nobody knows readers.

Yeah, not to write wild. Yes, there's an amazing book by is a jack whether third, I think his name is about jankez kind like the classic book, it's amazing book worth reading. Jack weather ford.

yeah. I mean, what is just what a fucking and bizarre moment in history? Where is one genius is like really the best at killing people and taking over countries. And he he does IT at a scale and then IT goes away, which is a real lesson for amErica because the mongols and everything for a long fucking time for hundreds of years. And then they didn't .

because of infighting yeah, in fighting. They weren't to fear from the outside.

He was in fighting while also down. Danger was dead. In the genius behind the whole Operation.

He had a particular tactical war mind that was just different than everybody else is he was a genius, was just a genius supplied to killing people. And that was gone once his children took over. And how I always works yeah and that's right but that's us focus when people .

when I talk to life feeling people about you know aggression, right and how it's how it's so bad like I was a maladaptive with the anthropological turn like maladaptive IT produces bad outcomes, right? And i'm like, look, arguably the most aggressive man on the planet in history was gang ane's kn. And he left the largest genetic footprint on the human genome, on the human race of any individual ever, right? So aggression at that level.

In Darwinian terms, right is absolutely rewarded, right? The shy guy that was writing poetry had one kid, right? get.

He's kind. Eleven percent of the population of the area that he conquered is dissented directly from him. They are daddy.

That was because of his aggression, right? So you just you have to understand the evolutionary terms. Aggression is richly rewarded.

So the trick for human culture is to blunt that with some cultural values that bring people back into a place of of of peace and dignity and CoOperation in ba baba, right? But just don't tell me that aggression is counterproductive, right? Is that's complete nonsense.

Well, it's just it's a utopian perspective. Yes, you know, aggressions bad. Toxic male energies bad yeah, until someone's invading your fucking country. And yeah, those are toxic male. Yeah, I get IT. But guess what? You need some on your side to, and that's the only way we survive is the only way we made IT to twenty four.

I mean, listen, chimpanzees to the same thing, males will invade arrival territory and kill off individual males by ganging up on them. This isn't a fair fight, right? This is ten to one, beat them to beat the males, rival males to death from the rival troop, beat them to death.

And when they're striking in terror, their bodies in the rival troop don't rush to their aid like humans would. They run away. That's the difference between chimpanzees.

Humans is the male cow is called, the male coalition exist in chimpanzee ety. But they don't run to the aid of their brothers. If there you when the chips are down, they save themselves individually.

Humans don't do that. We will rush to help. We will rush to help a brother who's in danger as IT worked right, like even at rest of our own lives. It's one of the few unique traits that human humans have. That other memory don't, which is .

probably how we made IT exactly?

No, because we're Better off in a group, even a group in a desperate situation. And but chimpanzee's, the rival troop, is getting beaten to death one by one. Eventually they are wiped out because they will not form.

They don't form a coalition to defend, only to attack the former coalition to attack, but not to defend, right? So what happens is the the more aggressive troop of chimpanzee's wipes out the males of the rival troop, won by one, because that the rivals won't form a cold defend. And then they take over the territory, all the food resources of their territory, and the females.

And now the aggressive troop of companee is now bigger and stronger. And those genes will be passed on at a higher rate than the genes of the poor, faster, who got beaten to death one by one, right? That's how Darwin isn't worked, and that's why aggression exists in the world. There's a genetic reward for IT.

That's why we're here .

and that's why we're here.

Humans, all guys plan.

and then human culture, all guys plan. And human culture came up with this extraordinary thing is like, guys, we're on one thing where this tribe or that tribe, we we have to fight to the last man to defend each other and defend our families. Bob, bob, because otherwise we're not going to make IT because the fuck.

And vikings are coming over the rich, right? So who's with me? No brave heart, you know, whatever. And there's an endless stories about that kind of terrorism like we're all together, we die together, we have to but we are all together, right? And that's a uniquely human trait.

Yeah, it's certainly is. And the problem is when you have a utopian perspective and you want everyone like i'm not dangerous and the world does not be dangerous, the promise, the word's dangerous and is genetically dangerous. It's like it's always been dangerous.

It's just this is what IT is. And I think we're in this enormous process. It's certainly much Better to live today.

At least IT is here. Then IT would be during the time of dust gifts here. If you live back then, it's less information.

It's danger, dangerous people of more control of people. They are cruel or it's more common. Things get Better over time, but it's a slow, slow process.

Yeah, that's right and we're .

in the middle of IT. That's right. And you know, we we look back and we say, oh, those fools but in the future, we're going to look back at us and say the same god damn thing the same way we look at this kn, they're going to look at us like, what the fuck did they do in ukraine? What the fuck did is real do in gaza? What the fuck is going on in sudan? What the fuck is going on? And wherever, fill in the blank anywhere in the world?

Yeah, that's right. And you know there is some m hope that sort global alliances bunch, some of this stuff like so there is some there is this our cultural evolution from the sort of like a ancestral the ancel ancestral origins of the species. Well, and so there you alliance is do often stabilized things, which is which is great, when is a good thing? But again, alliances can also precipitate conflate. So whatever .

yeah yeah. So it's a complex mixture of things happening. And I think, again, not forget to like wo woo spiritual, but I think that's a part of our journey, a part of our journey navigating the good evil that these .

are real forces. That's right. Yeah um I will be killed publicly executed like us. F sk almost was by my publisher. If I don't say the name of my book, I know you don't want to say.

I definitely don't want you can killed specially after do we have ve been through in my time of dying, how I came face to face with the idea of an afterlife. The listen, brother is always great to see you. I'm glad you alive. Thank you. Really, really enjoy these conversations.

We've had me too, and me too. They're really wonderful. And thanks. We're having me on and even such a great long talk about all this.

My pleasure. Did you read the audio book?

I did. Yes, good. beautiful. So you to listen to you on the trade mail?

Yes, I will do that. Thank you very much. Thanks for being appreciated. right? Five body.