Adult Education (Season 1, Episode 20)
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episode. Hello, Patrick here. I just want to let you know I'm going to be doing the deep dive all by myself today at the end of the episode. And that deep dive is an interview with our dearest friend, Stan Zimmerman. So Cheezies, this is a brand new interview with Stan who wrote this episode with his writing partner, Jim Berg. He is going to give us all the tea on this episode, all the behind the scenes shenanigans. He's going to answer our questions about the episode, and he's going to answer your questions that you put up for us in the Facebook group.

So the reason I'm doing the deep dive all by myself is because Mother Cheesecake, Jennifer Simard, is deep, deep, deep in prepping to open Death Becomes Her on Broadway. So she wasn't able to join me for this interview, but fear not, she's with me throughout the rest of this episode. So gird your loins for one of the funniest episodes we have yet to make, and then

prepare for the fabulous Dan Zimmerman to answer all of my and your questions, because we put it to the Facebook group, about this episode as the deep dive at the end of this episode. Okay, here we go.

Hi, Jennifer Smart. Hi, Patrick Hines. It's so nice to see you, girl. It's nice to see you. Don't I look beautiful today? You look gorgeous. We should tell the Cheesecakes we're recording on a Saturday. We've never done this before. This is my Saturday little lash for you. My Saturday lash. Hi, Saturday lash. Thank you for doing extra homework with me. Extra credit. Please. I think I actually mentioned it on the Facebook group this morning on a video. Yeah. Which you probably haven't even seen yet. I probably haven't even seen it yet. No, I was taking a car down here and I said, Patrick,

Patrick and I are going to the office on a weekend for my benefit because when I'm in production, which means I won't get any sleep, I'll basically be living at the theater 24 hours a day. I'm not going to have time to record on our normal schedule. Well, for those of you who don't know Cheesecakes, our dear mother Cheesecake is about to go star in Death Becomes Her on Broadway. In the Goldie Hawn role. Yeah, I'm playing Helen Sharpe.

And I'm very lucky. We saw it in Chicago. It is divine. It is so, so good. It's a great show. I'm truly honored to be a part of it. It's not lost on me. You know, a lot of, I grew up wanting to do this. Yeah. And there's a million women out there who would really kill to have this part. Yeah. So I wear the mantle proudly and humbly and I will try to do my best. You're such an amazing person. I love you so much. Thank you. I love you. So tell the cheesecake what we're talking about today. All right.

First of all, I love round numbers. I have a little neurodivergence, including OCD. Okay. We're on episode 20. I love that number. It's nice and round. Yeah. Makes me feel good. So season one, episode 20, Adult Education, written by our good friends, Stan Zimmerman and James Burke.

Yeah, directed by Jack Shea. I was texting with Stan yesterday because I was just like re-watching the episode again. Texting him the funny lines. They outdid themselves. It's so fucking good. This episode is phenomenal. They're writing. They're just so good. I know. What I love about this episode too is that there are scenes that are broken down into sub-scenes.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And we'll get to it. But like, I'm thinking of one in particular that is just so random and so funny. Like, I'm just laughing my head off. I can't wait to hear it. And I'd love to. We'll get there. We'll get there. Our new podcast. We'll get there. But the original air date was February 22nd, 1986. Yes. So what was going on in the world? I have something that stuck out for me. Please. Because I happen to love this song and I happen to love the movie that

I saw it in for the first time. But on the Billboard chart, James Brown's Living in America was ranked number five. Oh, how does it go? Living in America. Oh, of course. And they're like...

I feel good. Yeah. I'm trying not to do an impression of him, but I could. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was in Rocky IV, I believe. You love anything Sylvester Stallone. I love anything Sylvester Stallone. And there's James Brown living his best life, just killing it. Anyway, it reached number five. I love that. Which I love. Should we go to the episode proper? Let's do it, girls. Let's do it.

So we open in the kitchen. Dorothy is at the island looking lovely in an emerald green tunic top. I gotta tell you. It's the plumbing sweater that we love so much. Oh, is that right? That's right. She wears a lot. And again, we've commented on this before. She wears a lot of, I think, mostly repeat outfits in this episode, which I love. I wanted to say, I have right here, hashtag justice for Dorothy. There's so much talk of like Dorothy, not like being an ugly woman. Dorothy looks great. This outfit is great. She looks really good. And to be fair,

We might owe her some damages. Some damages.

from us. But, you know, hey, we can only go with what we see. And listen, I'm not laying off old Dot. I'm just saying, she looks great right now. She dates all the time. I'm going to say that every episode. I know. She dates all the time, Sophia. Leave her alone. No, sometimes they dress her better than other times. Anyway. She looks good. She's chopping a salad. She's holding a butcher knife. I took a screenshot and sent you a text message because the way that she wields this knife in this scene, like she uses it to, she gesticulates with it. Yes. It's a butcher knife. Well, also, I think, because she's got the,

yellow phone receiver on her left shoulder. We find out she's on hold for 20 minutes now, which is not fun for all of you. Like now we have that option on our cell phones to just like, you know, have them call you back or just to leave your phone to the side. But she has to stand there, hold it, making a salad. Yes. And we know that she's not the most patient person in the world. So I think I thought about it after I got your text. I'm like, so the butcher knife is probably an extension of the internal rage that she's keeping a cap on. No, no, no.

Right. She's really looking uncharacteristically calm. Yes. Only for a moment. But then she gets, well, because she has such passion. She's on hold. We'll get there. But she's on hold for tickets to see Frank Sinatra. Yes. And Sophia enters wearing a scarf covering her hair. I have, what is she wearing? Big caps. I mean, I know she's got to get her hair done, but does it look that bad?

Well, I just love that it's really to indicate that she's got a beauty appointment. I know. She's getting her hair done. Nobody can see it until it's finished. It's like when Stan came with the lei from Hawaii. Exactly. Because otherwise we wouldn't get it or we wouldn't remember. We wouldn't know where he came from. I know. No, we wouldn't know. I want to point out, dude, Rose is at the table. There is a plate of cucumbers and meatballs on the table. I don't understand it. Cucumbers and meatballs. And she's just kind of tracing her finger around the table. Kind of looking very confused as we are wondering what's on that plate because it's

not the salad. No, it's not the salad. They're living a very healthy lifestyle in this house because Bea Arthur or Dorothy's making the salad. The plate of cucumbers and meatballs, I just, I don't get it. I just don't understand. So,

So Sophia comes in. She's just saying, like, hurry up. We got to go. I can't be late for my appointment at the beauty parlor. Right. And this is where Rose says, well, hang on just a second, Sophia, because, you know, Dorothy's been on hold for 20 minutes trying to get tickets to Frank Sinatra. In a minute, Sophia, Dorothy's been trying to get through to the box office for 20 minutes. I can't be late. The last time I was late, Ronald gave me the broken hairdryer. I came out looking like Don King. And I just...

Just note, I imagine Ronald is some big hairdressing queen who looks just like Harvey Fierstein. And he takes punctuality very seriously. Very. You do not fuck with Ronald. Don't fuck with Ronald. Otherwise, you're getting the broken hairdryer. Very funny. But, you know, Dorothy's saying she's been waiting her whole life to see Frank Sinatra. She's not getting off the phone until she gets these tickets. And Sophia's perplexed. And then as are we who sort of know the timeline of stuff. But I have a theory about

this, right? I mean, no offense to our good writing pals. She says, what are you talking about? I took you and Gloria to see him at the Paramount Theater. I'll never forget it. From the second he stepped out on the stage. I don't know. Something happened. You fainted. That's what happened.

I spent the rest of the evening in the ladies' room trying to revive you. It wasn't until a couple years later that I got another chance to see Sinatra. Stan bought tickets for my birthday. But two weeks before the concert, he asked me for a divorce. I got the house and the kids. He got the tickets. So I said, I've decided this might have been an earlier ask for divorce, right? Because the kids are great.

grown right you're it was literally they just moved in together you're right they got divorced after 38 years of marriage right the kids are not still living at home right and she and gloria two years earlier ostensibly weren't little girls anymore going to see right you're right then it was like an earlier ask for a divorce like around here a year 12 i've decided that it was an earlier ask for divorce regardless it makes a good joke so bravo friends i also love that sofia just

so hot for Frank Sinatra that she fully passes out. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, sure. That Italian stallion. So I have a deep dive on Sinatra. I can do it now. I do. I can do it now or later. Let's do it now. All right. Because Cheesecakes, he's really sprinkled throughout the whole episode. He really is. We might as well see him. He's so omnipresent here. I know. And sometimes that happens. Like they talk about Burt Reynolds the whole episode once and then he shows up at the end. Right. So Frank Sinatra, you might have heard of him, Cheesecakes. Yeah.

What you may not have heard of is he had a traumatic welcome into this world. Did he? He did. He was born on December 12, 1915 in the kitchen of his parents' Hoboken, New Jersey apartment. Why are you laughing? You're making me laugh. He was born in the kitchen? Born in the kitchen. All right. Right near the cucumbers and meatballs. All right. Anyway, he was a, that's a callback. Thank you very much. Anyway. Okay. This makes my vagina hurt. He was a 13 pound baby. Okay.

My legs cannot be wider right now. Oh, I've dilated. My water has broken. 13 pounds. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. 13 pounds? 10 of it was ego. So big. He had to be delivered with forceps. And it was very terribly violent. Stop fucking anymore, Patrick. I'm serious.

This is all happening in a kitchen. In a kitchen. I can't imagine. I'm just imagining it. 1915. I mean, you know. Anyway, this is serious now. Okay. Are you ready? Are you ready? I don't know, girl. You're one of the greatest comedians working and living today. I'm trying. I'm trying my best. Oh, God. It's not my fault. Let me help you. Let me help you. So he was thought to be stillborn. Oh, way to take it down, Samard. He was blue and not breathing. Okay. Okay.

I'm sorry, because I'm back on the kitchen. The doctor laid him on the counter. Patrick has doubled over. Okay. While he attended to Sinatra's mother. Uh-huh. And I'm thinking, was that before or after the not breathing in the blue? But anyway. If there's a doctor there, why are we in the kitchen and not in a hospital? Right. But God bless the grandmother. God bless his Sofia Petrillo. Yeah. Because it was only when his grandmother...

picked him up as a newborn, ran him under cold water and slapped his back, that Sinatra started breathing. Wow. That's how he started breathing. I mean, how could she even lift him? 13 pounds? Yeah.

Oh, my God. I can't imagine. Like, that poor pregnant woman. I know. Please tell me she was a linebacker. I don't know. You know what I mean? Jesus, that's so awful. But this is—okay, more awful news. Ready? The forceps. Patrick, we are so in trouble. I know. Why are we—we're tired. We're hungry. I'm hangry, for sure. Anyway.

Because it all worked out okay. We know it worked out okay. So the forceps used during Sinatra's birth, it caused severe scarring to his left cheek, neck, and ear that ran from the corner of his mouth to his jawline, which was exacerbated by cystic acne as an adolescent, thus earning him the nickname Scarface. I feel like a newscaster who's going to be fired in the air. Oh, God.

You know, we know him as such a badass. I'm like, Jesus.

Oh, my God. I'm so seen. Like, I feel like hugging him. Like, Frank, I was a nerd, too. I had glasses and braces. I was like the fat, poor, gay, chubby kid, Frank. Oh, but I'm so beautiful when I cry. My eyes look so blue. Okay. Okay. All right. Cheesecakes were only laughing because he ended up being Frank Sinatra. I don't know if that's why we're only laughing. But, you know, we have to own it. There you go. All right. As an adult...

There's more? Sinatra wore makeup to hide the scars, but still reportedly hated being photographed on his left side. Oh, wow. I mean, he's so handsome. My left side's my good side. Do you have a better side? No, my face is horrible. What? Please don't ever take my picture. All right. So Sinatra's father, Martin, was a tavern owner and part-time prizefighter.

His mother, Natalie, known as Dolly, was allegedly a domineering influence both in local politics and in her son's life and career. Well, she's still pissed about him being 13 pounds. She's like...

Sex now, it's like, it's just... Never again. It's just... Never again. So let's talk about his career beginnings. Upon hearing the recordings of Bing Crosby, Sinatra was inspired as a teenager to choose popular singing as a vocation. In 1939, while singing in waiting tables at the Rustic Cabin in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, he was discovered and hired by a trumpeter named Harry James, who had recently quit the Benny Goodman Orchestra to start his own band. That

well-known orchestra. I mean, like, that's huge, right? Okay. Sorry, 13 pounds. Ha ha ha.

All I can think is the mess in the kitchen. Like, that's all I can say. I mean, that's almost double my way. I was like seven and change. Yes, oh my God. By the 1940s, Frankie, as he was known then, became one of America's first teen idols. But his publicist, George Evans, didn't leave anything up to chance. He auditioned girls to find those who could sing the loudest and paid them $5 each to sit at strategic locations in the audience to whip up experiences.

Oh, wow. That's clever. That's great. Yeah. It likely wasn't necessary, though, because in the early 1940s, his skyrocketing popularity ushered in what was known as Sinatra mania, which I never heard of before. I heard Beatle mania. I never heard of Sinatra mania with tens of thousands of riotous fans greeting him after performances. Wow. And then came what we all know of as the Rat Pack years.

So during the late 1950s and early 1960s, Sinatra frequently appeared on stage and in films with his close-knit band of friends known variously as the Klan or the Summit. Oh, let's not do that, guys. The Klan? I know, I know, I know. Oh, my God. But popularly became known as the Rat Pack. Thank you. A much better choice. Yes, thank you. Yeah. Peripheral members included actors Peter Lauffer, Joey Bishop, and Shirley MacLaine, and honorary member John F. Kennedy, but the core group was always Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr., and

and Dean Martin. Also, he forged a highly successful career as a film actor and he won the frickin' Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor for From Here to Eternity. Wow! In 1953. Good on you, Starface. I know. And his death. Sadly, he suffered a severe heart attack at age 82. On May 14th, 1998, his wife was by his side at a hospital in Los Angeles.

And that was after, sadly, some pretty rough final years of poor health. As we said, a heart condition, breathing problems. He had high blood pressure, pneumonia, bladder cancer, dementia. His last words to his wife reportedly were, quote, I'm losing. Oh, let's just finish it with this. He won a lot. As we said.

Academy Award winner, supporting actor in 1954, 11-time Grammy Award winner, and four-time Golden Globe Award winner. And he's talked about through this whole episode, and we laughed for probably 10 minutes. I can't get over it. Thank you, Frank Sinatra. We're going to have to make sure that Mattie Doyle knows the story about being born at 13 pounds in a kitchen. I mean, yes. Our friend Matt Doyle just started a Tina Sinatra-produced musical of his life in London, too much acclaimed. Oh, and if

You have never heard Matt sing Sinatra. Like, he transformed. I had to change clothes afterwards. Like, it is, it's a lot. Patrick, as an off note, too, I'm not sure we're going to have time for your deep dives considering how much we laughed about that. Oh, my God. All right, so you take it away. Back to the episode. Blanche enters the kitchen looking absolutely ravishing. I agree. She looks so good. She looks so good in every single episode. So Blanche has got some terrible news. Oh!

Oh, girls, I have terrible news. I failed my psychology exam. I'm just beside myself. Oh, Blanche, look on the bright side. It's just one test. No, but this is my midterm. I could fail the whole course. And if I fail this course, I won't get my degree. And if I don't get my degree, the museum won't even consider me for that promotion. Oh, I guess there's no bright side.

Patrick, you're always talking about themes. And this made me think of this theme. Like, yeah, like she's widowed. Yeah. She did have to take on roommates. Yeah. So long term wealth is something she's thinking about. Yeah. Because, you know, she's going back to school. She's getting her degree. This whole thing is about her getting a promotion at work. Yes. But I guess we're going to learn later that she never went to college. Like this is her getting her first degree. So it's another it's like a point of pride. Is it clear that it's her first degree? I think so, because later they say you're going to be a college graduate. Oh.

Oh, that's wonderful. And I do love, too, this little, you said how cute she looks in her pink outfit. But also, I love that she's carrying like a college-looking Laura Lee attaché case. Yes. She's very serious, too. Totally. And I love when Blanche takes something seriously. Oh, I know. Like, she really wants to do it. But it is also kind of like, she's not,

just not passing. Like, she's failing. So it does kind of seem like she's going to the classes but not doing the homework. You know what I mean? Well, I have a theory about that later. A question mark. Would be great to ask Stan, actually, what his thought was. So then it cuts back to Dorothy who's now wielding the knife. Like, I mean, she's pointing this big, sharp, scary knife. And, like, the school teacher in Dorothy comes out because she's saying to her...

Honey, calm down. You're going to pass the course. It simply means that you're going to have to buckle down and study a little harder. At least you're doing well on your other two courses. But those are art courses. They come easier to me. I've always had a great appreciation for the arts and artists. And carpenters and mechanics and delivery boys. And carpenters and mechanics and delivery boys. I have Bravo Shannon James.

It's so sad that Stan and James were only on season one because they're so fucking good. Well, you know what? I kept thinking through this whole episode with how good all of these jokes are and in various ways to different kinds of humor used throughout. The thing I kept thinking of was, again, how we know that these women at first, when they saw their ages, the writers in general, were just kind of skeptical. They were worried. And I can see because they also just gave all of them such great material, like just to

see these women like the level of transition to trust because we got to come back to Dorothy right now who is screaming she's off because she's off hold kids yes yeah yeah yes I'm still here yeah yeah I'm calling about the Sinatra concert it's what what you you've kept me on hold all this time to tell me that it is sold out no no I will not have a nice day

The Arthur is losing her shit. So upset. Yes. And then she screams at the top of her. She's shaking her head. All that hair going everywhere. I wrote the unhingery. I know, but great writing, great delivery. Because again, it's what's in the gaps? What are we not hearing? What are we not seeing? And we can fill in the gaps and that's what makes it funny. Right. You know, that they're like, well, have a nice day. No, no, I won't.

not have a nice day. You know, it's so funny. Exactly. Exactly. So then suddenly we learn everybody in the house knows ticket brokers because like Sophia saying she'll make some calls. She'll get it done. She's got connection. But the thing is, I believe her. Yeah. So Sophia saying she knows a guy and Dorothy saying, Ma, I'm going to call a ticket broker. And Sophia's like, fine, big shot. You handle it. See how far you get. And then Rose has an idea. Like you said, to your point, everyone knows someone. Yes. I just remembered. I know somebody in show business who can help us.

my best friend in St. Olaf has a nephew who's a page at NBC in Hollywood. I'll write to her and ask her to write to him. Honey, won't that take an awful long time? Oh, I don't mind. I'm a very patient person. And very funny setups for, again, very funny material. Because Blanche just says, like, won't that take an awful long time? And Rose is saying, I don't mind. I'm a very patient person. Funny. Again, you just don't think it's going to be in that direction. Yes. My favorite

part of this whole thing is, you know, Rose is telling the story about how she's very patient and she once had a sty. She once waited for weeks for the sty to go away. Every night she'd close her eyes. She'd picture it getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And Rose says, in one morning, I woke up and it was gone. And then it cuts to Sophia who's passed out. And I'm scream laughing. It could be like the commitment to this bitch. Her eyes are closed, pretending to be asleep, standing up, holding the juice. And Dorothy asks her, Ma, are you okay? And Sophia says, I'm fine. I'm just trying to make Rose go away. Funny.

You don't see it going there. I'd also like to say something that I thought was funny, too, about Rose. It's like the idea that a natural life cycle is two whole weeks for a stye to go away. You know what I mean? I know. Somehow her closing her eyes, of course, picturing it getting smaller and smaller did nothing. It took two weeks. Exactly. That's the life cycle of a stye. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

so damn funny girl I have a mini deep dive on the NBC page program oh my gosh for reasons that will become clear okay so I'm gonna just first tell you what the NBC page program is in case you don't really know the NBC page program is a 12 month paid fellowship at the NBC Universal Studios in New York City and Universal City California this is the description from the page program website the NBC

The ABC Universal Page Program is a rotational learning and development program that gives early career talent a well-rounded experience along with unmatched exposure to the media industry. The program is designed to help prepare Page Program graduates for other early career entry-level roles at the company.

Employment at NBCUniversal after the program completion is a primary goal but not guaranteed. Now, this is no shade, but NBC pages are basically tour guides. Like, Kenneth on 30 Rock is an NBC page. They do, like, the low-level stuff. And you do, like, rotate around and, like, you work on The Tonight Show and you work on Saturday Night Live. You get a nice maroon jacket, right? And you get a nice maroon jacket. And you don't ever get to, like, meet the

famous people, but like you're doing like, you're doing the grunt work, essentially. But it's kind of an in. It's a foot in the door. So they get paid 25 bucks an hour. This is from the Wikipedia page. Selection is highly competitive with only 212 pages selected a year out of the more than 16,000 applicants. 212, I think that's like an homage to New York. To New York City. The New York City area code. Yeah.

So that means that around 1.5% of the applicants are accepted from the program. So becoming an NBC page is more competitive than gaining admission to Ivy League universities. Past pages describe the interview process as grueling as the company seeks the best corporate image to present to the public. Now, I would like us to look around the room, raise your hand if you applied for the page program and were not accepted. Yeah.

So here's the thing. Raise your hand if you applied and you were. I was super qualified when I was in college. My last few years of college, I interned at the number one radio station in Boston. I interned at Kiss 108 on the Maddie in the Morning show for a year. OK. I also interned at the NBC affiliate in Boston as well. And I like Dorothy Spornak right now for the Friends of Good Health Award. Don't you remember? The best friend of the Friends of Good Health. Like, you know, I sold peanut brittle for the blood drive.

What about me? Now, listen, I had to come down for a group interview for the page program and I was unhinged. So I... You don't say. I don't.

I took the 2.30 a.m. Chinatown bus. Do you remember these? Oh, yeah. The Chinatown to Chinatown bus. It was like $10. Funwa. Funwa was one of them. Lucky Star was another one. I couldn't afford a hotel room in New York City overnight to get up and get ready. So I got ready on the 2.30 a.m. Chinatown bus. I showed up all disheveled. And I wrote about this in my book. I...

For some reason, really wanted to make, like, my goal for the group interview was for them to know two things. That I was gay and that I was raised really poor. Because I thought these would be, like, diversity. Just selling features. Just a selling feature. And it got to the point. The scene, I described the scene in the book, and it's a pretty funny scene. Yeah. And it's really true. I was...

absolutely unhinged. And you were dressed like Chris Farley in a van down by the river, right? 100%, like, busting out of my, like, suit that didn't fit me. Oh, bless you. Basically, like, at one point, I remember the moment where the lady leading the group interview looked over at me and her eyes just said, are you okay? Like, are you all right? Oh, no. It was so bad. So, that,

That's my mini deep dive on the page program, everybody. Goddamn. Good job. Thank you. Cheesecakes, we've got to tell you about another podcast we love. It's called That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. So if you often find yourself going down a law and order, an IMDb rabbit hole, have we got the podcast for you. Check out That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

SVU podcast on the Exactly Right Network. It's hosted by comedians Cara Clank and Lisa Trager, and each week they break down an episode of Law & Order SVU, the true crime it's based on, and chat with an actor from the episode. They've talked to guests like Margaret Cho, Megan Fahey, B.D. Wong, Matt

Matthew Lillard. Uh-huh. And at least five actors from Orange is the New Black. Matthew Lillard was my big, huge crush after the first Scream movie. So tune in for all things SVU, unfiltered, hot takes on TV, pop culture, and more. Listen to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast, wherever you get your podcasts with new episodes every Tuesday.

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So it's evening, different day. Yes. And Rose is helping Blanche study in the living room. Because it's like the psychology midterm or whatever. Which is so sweet. And I love that theme in this episode, by the way. The girls are always like jumping in like, we'll help you, we'll help you, we'll help you. And we get a lot of moments of them being roommates with each other, like sitting around telling stories or just like being together. Because like sometimes Blanche will go out and then like not invite Dorothy and Rose to come with her. And I'm like, oh my God, that's it.

just like not how my mind works. Yeah, yeah. So I love seeing them like just sitting around and like living in their space. Yeah. I don't know if it's because I had my own room as a kid and I had brothers, but one of the most comforting things in the world to me is having my own space with walls and a door, but knowing there's life in the home. My favorite thing at night is to go to sleep with Steve in bed next to me staying up.

like reading or doing, I love that. I've always, even when I was in college and I had a roommate, I loved going to sleep while he was like at his desk doing his homework. Oh, okay. I like, I just loved being like going to sleep while other life is happening. I like a wall. Yeah. But I hear you. You know me, I don't need any wall. No, you're like, you're a Mr. Extrovert. The more, the merrier. Okay. But there's a funny line here where Rose is saying, it's a quiz question. Whose theory states a young man becomes intimate with his mother to get revenge on his father?

I don't know who said it, but my second cousin Arlen did it. I think we better try another question. Such a good joke. Dirty. But true. Yeah. And so Dorothy, this is one of my favorite entrances because Dorothy enters and she's exhausted, but she screams at her.

I am exhausted. I went to at least a dozen ticket brokers today. They all told me the only way I'm gonna get tickets is to go to a scalper. Oh, you can't buy from a scalper. That's a crime. Well, so is eating grapes at the supermarket, but you do that all the time. I have to test them. Rose, one is testing. Fourteen is brunch.

Good Lord, I'm a criminal. Fine, as long as you already have a record, I can count you in. Now, let me just tell you that I think about this every time I go to the grocery store. You do? Yeah, because we buy grapes all the time. And I always, I literally only eat them because Rose made it okay. Right. You know what I mean? Oh, I love that. And I always think about like, what's one or two or 13 grapes between here and the cash register? Well, I don't know where we have cut off the line, but I do love this line of Dorothy's. Fine, as long as you already have a record, I can count you in. Yeah.

And I have to say, this was a hilarious line and yet no audience response. And all I can guess was because it was in the middle of a sentence and she continued speaking. But props to our writers because that was effing funny. It's really funny. And I just love that, like, Dorothy is so obsessed with going to see Sinatra that she, like, even Dorothy you would think is a rule follower. I know. I have a question for you, too. Do you remember, what is,

that, not Ticket Hub, what is the online thing where people sell tickets? StubHub? StubHub. Okay. So now it's StubHub, but I remember in the 80s, like, scalper. Oh, yeah. That was dangerous. Well, the thing about scalpers, and even to this day, like, if you're going to buy, I've seen the heartbreak of people buying tickets to Hamilton on the street. They're like the paper tickets for

$800. When I was a hotel concierge, we used to hear these stories. People would come back crying. I spent $800 on these tickets and then we scanned them at the theater and they were fake. That's the danger with buying from a scalper. Yeah, not good. Not good. But I do remember in the 80s being like, ooh, they were all just terrifying and otherworldly. The underground, you know? It's true. So Dorothy says, you know, she's like, tomorrow I'm going to go to a scalper and I'm going to buy four tickets and Blanche chimes in and she says, not four. She can't go. Make it three because her final exam is that same night.

Yeah. And I love this moment because we now get this monologue from Blanche about how unhealthy and unnatural studying is. Listen, not only that, but I have not only do our writers write it in threes, but then to use the repetition of the UN on prefix. That's next level. Oh, well, what difference does it make? My social life's gone down the drain anyway. All I ever do is study.

You know, it cannot be good for you. It's unnatural. It's unhealthy. It's unlike me. No wonder I can't concentrate. I need a break. I need a change of scenery. I need to hit Wally's bar for ladies night. It's unnatural. It's unhealthy. It's unlike me. Yeah.

Your Blanche is such a treat. It's such a gift. Thank you very much. I love it so much. Thank you very much. But I just love it because, like, Blanche, look at your audience. You're talking to, like, a mother. All Rose wants to do is be a mother again. Yeah. And a school teacher. Yeah. You know, like, of course, you're all, like, living in different worlds. Yeah. You know, but that's good because they're here to keep her centered and to get her through this hard time. Right, right, right. Because she's saying she needs a break, right? Yes. And again, in threes, I need a break. I need a change of scenery.

I need to hit Wally's bar for ladies night. I'll see y'all later. Don't you girls wait up. And as to your point, her friends hold her accountable. And in this case, as Dorothy literally held her accountable, she grabbed that dough.

Brought her back. It's funny too because like it's just the extrovert in me that when she jumps up to go to Wally's and doesn't invite Rose and Dorothy like it hurt my feelings for them a little bit. Oh really? Yeah like if I lived with roommates in my golden years like and I'm going out I want my friends to come with me. Well true but also we know what ends up happening to her afterwards and she wants maybe she didn't want the cup

Well, right. Exactly. I mean, we all know what happened to the rusty anchor. They have to divide night Tuesdays, Thursdays, right? Totally. No, it's true. And, you know, you know, Blanche is going to be the center of attention. Right, right, right. Like you're going to go without your friends. But no, she doesn't. She she gets wrangled and she stays home to study. Of course. Yeah. I do love this moment coming up. Right. So like the friends have got her back. Yeah. But I love how Dorothy's like, Rose, let me handle this. And I love because she's like, I'm the professional in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm the teacher. And she's true.

She should, like, you want to listen to her. What's wild about this moment is that they're sitting on the couch and Dorothy is saying to Blanche, like, going back to school was never going to be easy. And Blanche says, it's impossible. And when she says impossible, she kicks the textbook. It was an outburst that I wasn't expecting. She kicks it.

And Dorothy suggests she talks with her teacher, which is absolutely the right thing to suggest. Yeah, because we're really far along in this semester and Blanche is failing. She has an F. Right. She's failed the midterm. She's studying for the final. And I'm like, Blanche has really let it go. Like, she can't be that invested in this class if she's at an F at the end of the semester. Well, OK, I'm going to bring it up now. Yeah. Because we know what's coming up. Yeah. One of my questions, it's probably on face value. Yeah. I'm guessing. But.

I want to ask Stan, like, there's a part of me that wonders, like, based on how the actor played it, I'm guessing it's face value. But there's a part of me that's wondering, maybe she didn't fail the midterm. Oh, because we know that a sexual harassment situation is coming. And you're saying maybe he's failing her so that she's going to have to ask for extra credit. Maybe, like, is this something that he does? Does he wait for people to come to him? Or if she hadn't approached him, would he have gone to her and said, listen, you're failing my class?

The only way you're going to pass is blank. Layers. It's just a thought I had as a possibility. We don't know. Well, it was a woman who lives in the world where shit like this happens. Right. You know? And if it's not a multiple choice thing, which the end scene doesn't appear to be, it looks like essay writing. Right. Like, who knows? Absolutely. It's just a question.

question I had. And I agree. And I have more to say when we get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. So Blanche is saying, you know, she would be too embarrassed to talk to the teacher, which I thought was interesting because it's like, I have thoughts on this too, because we're going to find out before it all goes south that she finds him attractive.

Yeah. So maybe she's embarrassed of like looking not smart in front of this man who's an established professor who she thinks is handsome. Of course, because, you know, she's always relied on her looks. Yeah. She's probably feeling insecure about it. But you know, it's coming. What's coming? You've got to set me up. So Dorothy, to make Blanche feel better, is saying that she used to feel embarrassed to talk to her teachers. And then Blanche says, Get out of here. No, it's true. It's true. Elementary school was a nightmare. Get out of here. Yeah.

It's so good. Thank you. As soon as she said it, I heard you saying it. Thank you. And Dorothy tells this story about, you know, elementary school is a nightmare because she had a speech impediment. She was afraid to talk in class. Now, the joke that gets the biggest laugh of the episode, she says, you know, it's different for kids these days. You know, they have Barbara Walters to look up to. A glorious laughter. Yep.

And I have to say here, I have I said we have a funny yet moving speech. Yeah, it's true, because Dorothy was saying that, you know, her speech impediment really stood out back then. And it took three months for her to muster up the courage to talk to Mrs. Lemoff. And it turned out to be the smartest thing she could have done because it not only did the teacher help her, but she was the one who inspired her to go into the teaching profession. And so that did the trick because Blanche said, you know what, tomorrow after class, I will talk to

Professor Cooper. Yes. I have a question here, too, for our friend Stan. I think we're led off in Cooper names inspired by people they know in real life or were they just random choices? If he remembers. Good question. And not only that, the hairdresser from the beginning, Ronald. Oh, like, you know, like I love the idea of name choosing. So I am curious about that old Queen Ronald, who if you're late, he gives you this shitty hairdryer. I got to know. Don't fuck with Ronald. Don't fuck with Ronald. It's a tight calendar. And so as she's walking away, Rose asks her whatever happened to Mrs. Lenoff.

happened to your teacher, Mrs. Lenhall? Oh, gosh. Last I heard, she retired from teaching, opened a bed and breakfast someplace in Rhode Island. Rhode Island. Rhode Island. Rhode Island.

And it's really funny. Yeah. We hear her speech impediment. And also a tip of the hat to Barbara Walters. Yes. A bit notorious for her R's. Barbara. So next scene, we're at school with Blanche and she's going to do it. She's going to stay after class and she's going to talk to the teacher about getting some extra help. And to your point earlier, she again is looking so damn cute. Yes. White pants, pink top, teal throw over the shoulders with signature mules. Yeah. Looking so cute.

She always looks great. Looks great. She goes up to talk to Professor Cooper. I think the casting of this actor is very good because he's attractive. He's an older man. He's about Blanche's age. And I...

And, you know, I got to say, Stan and James, like this writing is really good because he stands up, you know, it's just the two of them. They're very physically close to each other. And, you know, Blanche is saying, if you have a minute, you know, I'd really like to talk to you. And he says, no, no, no, please. I'm all ears. And Blanche flirts with him. Well, if I might have a minute of your time. Of course, if now is not convenient. No, no, no, please, please. I'm all ears.

Don't sell yourself short.

I don't believe we've been formally introduced on Blanche Devereaux. Yes, I know. You do? Of course. I'm flattered. You're the only student who failed my midterm exam. What's about to happen is sexual harassment, right? Right. But what is being set up here is that this is a man who, in another context, absolutely would have had a shot with Blanche. Right. But also, because I thought about this moment, too, and it's not terribly inappropriate for her to do the flirting because she doesn't hold a position of power.

One million percent. And it's just like the way that she talks or whatever. But I thought it was really interesting to establish that it's not that Blanche doesn't find him attractive. Right. It's that he's a class A shitbag. I love here, though, when she introduces herself, she does her signature hand offering as if it's to be kissed, not shook. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. And so, you know, he's saying he knows who she is and she's thinking because I'm a beautiful woman. And he's saying, no, it's because you're the only person who failed my midterm. She says, oh. And he asked her, what was it you wanted to see me about? And she's saying what we know. She's struggling in the class. And, you know, she's saying like passing is very important to her. We know that she needs the degree. She wants the promotion. And, you know, she's asking for extra credit. She's saying, is there anything I can do? Right. And he's right. And he says,

Well,

It's going to take a lot of hard work on your part. You mean like extra credit? Well, you could say that. Oh, well, that's fine. I'm ready, willing and able. I'll do whatever I have to. I like your attitude, Blanche. And like you see him setting it up. And it's so interesting what you were saying. But he's so casual. So casual. The writing is really great. And his performance, you don't really see it coming here. Exactly. Which is great. Exactly. But he's making it very clear. You need an

A on the final to pass the class. That's right. And this is where you can see it starting to shift. That's right. Blanche doesn't really see it yet. No, and a great setup for what's coming. She says, oh, well, that's fine. I'm ready, willing, and able. I'll do whatever I have to. And he... Oh, I like your attitude, Blanche. Thank you.

This is my home phone number. If you really want that degree, you'll use it. Can you catch my drift? Oh. Oh. And now we all realize what's happening. I got a mini deep dive on the actor who plays the professor. His name is Jerry Harden. When did you sleep with him for the first time? Oh, my God. I think he's so handsome. Oh, my God.

I'm going to end on my favorite fact about him. A fact that blew my mind. So Jerry Harden was born in Dallas in 1929. He was really active in theater as a kid. He went on to study acting at London's Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. Oh, fancy parents. Fancy Jerry Harden. He began acting on television in the 1950s and amassed over 100 appearances by the 1990s. And like not small roles. Like he had really good interesting roles. He had a

small role in the 1993 Tom Cruise movie The Firm do you remember that movie? very much yes my mom and all of her friends I remember them all handing that book around it was a John Grisham book yeah it was huge everyone read that book but this performance caught the eye of the producers of The X-Files they quickly cast him in the role of Deep Throat a character that was originally meant to be a one-off but the producers loved him and loved the character so much that they brought him back for a bunch of episodes even after the character's death so they

He did the death scene and the producers and him toasted for like champagne after his last scene. And they're like, don't worry, you're not going anywhere. He also had a recurring role on Star Trek The Next Generation playing a character sort of based on Mark Twain. I could see that. Yeah. He also has over 75 theatrical credits to his name, including three Broadway shows, including a show from 1999 called The Rainmaker starring Woody Harrelson. Oh. Did you know Harrelson did Broadway? I did, but I needed to be reminded. Sure. Okay.

He had a very, very full career. Cool guy. Here's my favorite fact about him. Okay. I stood up and screamed when I read this. His name is Jerry Harden. His daughter is Melora Harden, who played Jan Levinson Gould on The Office. Yeah.

Yes. I am obsessed with her. She is maybe next to Donna Moss from the West Wing. She is my favorite character from network television. Oh, my God. She's incredible. She's currently on Broadway now. She did Chicago on Broadway. She has a Christmas album that I'll listen to in July. How amazing is it that he's Melora Hardin's dad? I love it. I love it. Oh, I'm obsessed.

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Which is just so funny. Like, Sophia just absolutely does not want the Jell-O. Jell-O is like an old person food, you know? Or a young person food. Yes. I've got a little ditty on Jell-O. Oh, tell me everything. And I'll tell you my personal association as we go. But Jell-O, because it is a big, I mean, she brings it out. It's a big deal in this episode, right? First trademarked in 1897, Jell-O began its rise in popularity with the introduction in 1904 of the prophetic slogan, America's Most Famous Dessert. Ha ha ha ha ha.

All right. So soon accompanying the slogan was a blonde Jell-O girl. Oh. An icon of the product for almost half a century. Wow. A little ahead of our time. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. As the slogan aspired, Jell-O became both famous and quintessentially American. It is sweet and processed, colorful and slightly fantastical, which I have here as the subheading of your next book, Patrick. Sweet.

Sweet and processed, colorful, and slightly fantastical. And slightly fantastical. That's exactly right. So at the turn of the 20th century, as Ellis Island saw an influx of immigrants, the Genesee Pure Food Company saw an opportunity to convert them into loyal customers. It was tired, it was poor, those huddled masses yearning to breathe free were all gifted complimentary bowls of Jell-O upon their arrival. Really? Yes! Isn't that cool? Oh my God! So after

Wow. Oh, yes. Huh.

Jell-O has 99% brand recognition in the United States, which is to say that in any given group of 100 Americans, only one of them will have no idea what Jell-O is. And who's that idiot? And the other 99 will probably be quick to explain. Daniel, how do you not know?

Stan Zimmerman. So Jell-O is this. Oh, God, this. I had no idea. And I love it so much. Jell-O is especially popular among Mormons. Really? So much so that the Mormon corridor region is nicknamed the Jell-O belt. Oh.

This is the episode that keeps on giving. Oh, my God. Jell-O was recognized in 2001 as, quote, a favorite snack food of Utah by the Utah Senate, observing that Utah had had the highest per capita consumption of Jell-O for many years. Oh, my God. And how citizens of Utah had rallied to take back the title after Des Moines, Iowa exceeded Utah in Jell-O consumption in 1999. What?

All right. On a personal note. Yeah. I love Jell-O for the snack that my mother made for years when I was a middle school age kid. Okay. Called Knox Blocks.

blocks. Oh, I've heard of this. Yes, I'm sure. You can look it up. You Google it. It's right there. It's basically you pour three boxes of Jell-O mix, mixing it with four cups of boiling water. Just put it in a nine by 13 pan. Yeah. You cool it in the fridge and then you cut it up into fun shapes. Yeah, I remember that. Circle stars, whatever. And my best friend Lynn, one of my best friends at the time, she would come home with me before our CCD classes, which is Catholic for Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. I took CCD. Yes, or we call now catechism. Yeah. But that was our snack. I've

school. Wow. Usually we do like the whatever the red Jell-O was. I don't know, strawberry. We were a green Jell-O family, which is why back to the episode. You love your back to this episode, so take it away. So Rose is bringing out the green Jell-O for Sophia and Sophia really doesn't want it. I hate Jell-O. If God wanted the features suspended in mid-A, he would have filled them with helium. I hate Jell-O.

I have to say, that does sound disgusting to me. I don't like fruit usually with my sweet desserts anyway. Yeah, same. I love now, too, that, like, at this point, Sophia tries to kick Rose out of the living room so she can have the whole living room to herself to clean out her purse. Yeah, it's Tuesday night. It's Tuesday. This is what she does. But I gather she's done it in private. Like, doesn't Rose know this? Right. Yeah.

And you see the amount of stuff spread out all over the couch that came out of Sophia's purse. It's hilarious. And one of the things to come out was a product called Phenomen, which I had to look up. What is that? It's a chewing gum to relieve constipation. Stop.

Stan Zimmerman. That is so funny. You know what? I'm getting to the age where I could use some phenomint gum. Yeah, sure. All right. But Sophia's just picking on Rose and Rose asked her like, Sophia, why are you in such a bad mood? Forgive me, Rose, but I haven't had sex in 15 years and it's starting to get on my nerves.

And she's just very dry about it, very matter of fact. I know. And I'm laughing going, well, she, you know, all she has is her porn. So Dorothy enters wearing a lovely repeat outfit. Oh my God. Aqua purple, gray and white number looking positively dejected. I just have the note. She's in no mood. Sophia goes right in on her. So big shot. Did you get the tickets? Dorothy looking genuinely defeated. You can't say hello first. Like Dorothy is,

trying so hard to get these tickets. And Sophia with a well-written, understated, preoccupied with business delivery. Hello, Big Shot. Did you get the tickets? It's just perfect. Perfection. My note here is that she doesn't even look up from cleaning the purse. Sophia has apps

Absolutely no fear that she's ever going to be so mean to Dorothy that Dorothy's going to kick her out. Listen, I've told you before with Spelling Bee that, you know, Dorothy picking the lint off her sweater, pouring the juice, that one of the keys to delivering an obviously well-written joke is to occupy yourself with some other business. It helps underplay it, undercut it. It also has this dance with the audience of energy of, I don't care whether you laugh or not, I'm busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. I'm just going to throw this away. Totally.

Totally. You either like it or you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's perfect. But Dorothy explains that, you know, it's been a horrible day. The only scalper she could find had, quote, funny things moving in his hair. Ew, and I went, ew. I hate creepy crawlies. It's really, really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he wanted to bargain in a dark alley. The other thing, too, is like, don't bargain. Just give her the fucking price, Joe. You know what I mean? Oh, I know, I know. Don't take this old woman down a dark alley and haggle. Just tell her how much it costs. Did you just call Dorothy an old woman? Oh, sorry. This perfectly middle-aged...

This young, young, young thing. Nubile. Exactly. Exactly. If it's an $800 lemon, just tell her. Exactly. If it's an $800 ticket to Hamilton that's not real, then just tell her. Exactly. Just tell it to her for $800. My God. So she doesn't get the ticket. She didn't think it was safe. And Sophia can't believe that her daughter was such a baby. She was saying, I can't believe you were such a baby. In Sicily, we did all our bargaining in dark alleys. How do you think I ended up with your father?

That is genius. It is so great. It's so funny. Because, you know, also you can picture the alley. Yeah. These two tiny, tiny people in this tiny, tiny alley. It's her and Mama Celeste. How?

haggling over men. You know, and there's Rose just, you know, the voice of reason. Listen, maybe it's just not meant to be, you know? I agree, Rose. At this point, maybe it's just not meant to be. Right, right, right. But Dorothy is just saying, you know, maybe for you, Rose, but, you know, in two weeks, I intend to be sitting in front of old Blue Eyes himself, live in person, middle-aged spread and all. I didn't understand what that meant until Rose's joke. Like men very, very renownedly can get that tire around their middles. Oh, yes, yes. You know, that, that, that,

you know, men usually gain weight in their middle section, right? Yeah. So that's what that's in reference to. But of course, with this great turnaround, this great reversal, right? And she says, Dorothy, you can take off a few pounds by then if you put your mind to it. Like just absolute savagery. Savagery, not about him. It's about Dorothy. Yes, yes. So funny. Blanche enters, letting them know she's devastated. Oh, girls, I'm devastated. Just devastated.

Honey, what happened? I asked my teacher for help like you all told me to. He said the only way I would get an A on his final is if I sleep with him. No. Oh, yes. I just don't know what to do. Get it in writing.

To everyone's credit, like, they all believe her and they don't give her any shit for being a sexual person. Yeah. I love that. I do too. You know, nobody says, like, well, are you sure you weren't coming on to him? Were you giving him... Right. Right away, they all believe her and they all are talking about, like, what a shitty situation it is. And...

Right off the bat, after this horrible information, we get one of the best jokes of the episode. Yes, get it in writing. Now, not only is that a hilarious joke, at this point, because you know how Sophia will often just get up and leave the room? Yeah, right. To, like, let the women, like, do their... Remember, she's been cleaning out her purse. As she says, get it in writing, she gets up and leaves. She's holding a dirty banana. Yeah.

so funny because it's kind of a phallic joke but it's also like that gross banana's been in her purse this whole time. No, the joke is so unexpected and funny and then the banana is so unexpected and funny. The banana is so funny. Very funny. So Dot enters. I have to say she comes back because she's just been back and forth but in this moment I did notice she's carrying a lovely matching clutch. Oh, is she? Oh, it's this lovely pale gray. Oh, yes. It's just

You're right. It's a clutch. It doesn't have a... A clutch without a handle. Yeah, that's what a clutch is. I noticed that too. And it's very attractive. Very stylish. I totally agree. Well, Dorothy, of course, you know, the voice of the audience, Blanche, that is terrible. I hope you told him off. And I actually love this response because it's very true to Blanche. Well, first I was so stunned I didn't know what to say. And then I marched back up to his desk and I looked him straight in the eye and I said, I'll think it over. Which I thought was...

That's so true to Blanche because she's not going to make up her mind just yet. You know, I'm sure that Blanche has been suffering sexual harassment all of her fucking life. This isn't new to her. Right, right, right. And she's going to decide what she's going to do. It also happens to be very funny. Like you think she's going to say something. That's her version of laying into him. Exactly.

Exactly. Dorothy, again, the voice of all of us and our collective rage. There's nothing to think over. What he did is sexual harassment. This is the first time those words have been said. And it's interesting because it could easily devolve from here into a very special Golden Girls. Yes. But it doesn't. No, it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, too, that, you know, this is decades before the Me Too movement. I need a hill even. Yeah. But still.

stuff we talk about now with great openness, you know? So it's very important that shows like this were on the air. Well, because I write this later that it's so well done that they're able to do an issues episode in a funny way. In a funny way without making you feel... Being preached to. Being preached to. Thank you. Because I'm sure like nine out of 10 women watching this episode can relate to it.

Oh, most women I know can relate to it in one way or another. Absolutely. So this is where we get what Blanche really thinks about herself. She really doesn't know if she can pass the class on her own. That's right. You know, and she says she's always relied on her looks. She's been relying on her looks for so long now. She truly doesn't know if she can do it any other way. This is really like calling up stuff for Blanche. That's right. It should be noted that Blanche was more than willing to sleep with the theater director to get the part of Lady Macbeth.

Beth. Right, right, right. Because it was on her terms. What's fucked up for her here is that this man is trying to get something out of her. That's the whole point. You know, like she had agency as opposed to being, you know, a victim of extortion. And we get the backstory of like how she came to feel this way about herself that, you know, she was always overshadowed by her sisters. But one day she turned 16 and discovered that she had a talent too. This is so great. I know. And then when I was 16, I discovered I had a talent too.

The talent to drive men crazy with a body that many said should have come with a warning label. Lunch, please. After a while, I learned that I could use my looks to my advantage, so I did. Regularly.

I've done it for so long now, I don't know if I can get by without it. I also liked this, though. I liked that she is being vulnerable and real enough to share with these women to whom she's always posturing that her sisters were smarter and more talented than she was. That's quite an admission from her. Yes, I agree. But it all changed for her when she turned 16 and there was no looking back.

With those two dogs. I just always love when Blanche says something nice about herself and Dora's like, oh, Blanche, please. It's just very rare that she ever admits any sort of humility. Yes, totally. So I really responded to that moment. Yeah, I agree. And it's just like, it's kind of sad of her saying that like, she's been like using her body to her advantage for so long. Yeah, and

And earlier, Rose had said, you know, you'd feel so much better if you just trust that you can rely on your brain and not your body. And again, I love this all for one, one for all ism here because Dorothy's like, you know, Rose is right. Listen, you're going to get an A in that class. We're going to help you do it. Yes. And I just love that. It's so great. It really, really is great. And I imagine true to many women's experiences. And she encourages her to report it. As far as the professor is concerned, you should report him immediately. Yes, because this happened to Dorothy.

That's right. The school principal pulled the same thing on her. You know, when I first started teaching, the school principal pulled exactly the same thing on me. What did you do? I reported him to the Board of Education. They investigated and he was forced to resign. Of course, much later, I found out that I was not the only person he had harassed.

I was, however, the only person he harassed while he was wearing a corset and high heels. You know, she makes a great point that because she spoke out, a lot of other women didn't have to go through what she did. And I was saying, like, it shouldn't be on the harassed person side.

To have to speak out, of course. Everybody's on their own journey. But she did. And it's a good point that like because she was brave. Yeah. She was able to save other women from suffering the same fate. But like in any job, it is like you are always because like with Dorothy, with Blanche even, is anyone going to believe them? Do they just become the problem? Is he going to now retaliate and make her life even worse? That's right. And I'm glad you said that, Patrick, because I have it highlighted here, too. It's a very important line to say that.

Yes, yes. And so and it's convinced Blanche. She says, you know what? You're right. I've made up my mind. I'm going to see the dean about Professor Cooper. Yes. OK, so, you know, they all agree is wise decision. And Rose won't do the whole thing. But she goes on to talk about this person who harassed her repeatedly at a local shop, this soda jerk.

because it's going to be a callback later, I want to mention it, he would rearrange ice cream scoops in an obscene way. And like the way that Blanche and Dorothy fall into the couch, they're so exasperated. And they have, you know, it's very successful on this show when people say lines together. Yes. Because she says, Rose says, I could never prove it because by the time I would take it home to show my father, the evidence had...

Melted. So funny. It's so good. I mean, when they do that, it's so great. So Rose says, to this day, every time I pass an ice cream parlor or a tackle shop, I blush. So next scene, we're going to Dean Tucker's office and, you know, Blanche knocks on the door. He's on the phone yelling at somebody about some sports thing. Right. It's a good setup because his arm...

office is very cluttered. The set design people did a really good job. He seems very flustered. The office is a mess. Blanche is kind of like walking in and I'm saying like this actor is great. He's great. You know, really good casting. Yeah. This is a small thing. It's not really a joke, but it's very subtle and I like it. Yeah. He's talking about problems, problems, problems. My mother wanted me to be a

priest, but no, I had to pursue the flashy world of academics. I mean, it is a joke, but the idea that academics is flashy made me laugh. Yes, yes. And, you know, she introduces herself and... Cuts her off right away. Yes. Okay.

Oh, don't do this to me.

Please, I beg you. We'll look into this first thing Monday morning. This is where I have the note that, like, this must happen to women all the time. People report this kind of thing and the authority figure does not want to deal with it. And for Stan and James to find a way to give us that moment in a really funny way where you feel the rage that Blanche would be feeling, but you're also laughing because it's a totally kind of unexpected moment. It's just so good. Yeah, it's props to the writers because this is a very tricky topic. Yes. And a really,

Yes. It's kind of magical. It's magical. How they finesse this moment because... It gets so much worse. Because honestly, even though it's inappropriate, the way it's written and the way he delivers it, there's this layer to it of, oh, don't do this to me. Yes, yes. Look...

Look, because you could almost make an argument for the fact that the line could be like, this is very serious and I'm going to get to this. But, oh, just not today. Yes. Yes. And he even says, well, we'll look into it first thing Monday morning. I mean, it's very human. Yes. In some fucked up way. But it's still so the wrong thing. Still so the wrong response. He doesn't ask her, are you OK? Oh, my God. You know. Yeah. The absolute wrong response. And yet you feel for the guy. 100%.

I don't know how they did that, but it's really well done. Yeah, that is so well said. So, you know, she says, no, you know, this can't wait. And then so he's like, OK, we'll do something. We'll fill out some paperwork. And again, he's like, well, we'll fill out a form like that's the right next step. Golly gee whiz. Exactly. It's like sexual discrimination, sexual harassment. Here we go. Again, threes. We see him looking through ostensibly a filing cabinet in the desk.

Yes. And the idea that he has all these horrible things that he's saying so casually. Okay, sexual discrimination, sexual education, sexual harassment. This next part is also so genius because he's reading the form that he's going to, he's like, I'm going to have to ask you some questions. Okay, I'm going to have to ask you a few questions. Well, Lord, I can't ask you this. I can't even ask my own wife this.

I'd like to. Dean Tucker, what happened to me was really quite simple. I'm not doing very well in Professor Cooper's class, so he offered to give me an A if I would... Do number five?

Actually, number five, six, and seven B. It's not just number seven. Yeah. What the hell is the two-parter to seven? I mean, it's just really smart. Yes, yes. And also, you know, I love the Murder Mystery Weekend, Case of the Libertine Bell, you know, seasons later, but it's that wonderful, unexpected callback of like, no.

south side like i love it's so unexpected not come out like south side like i love that it's like to do the number five you know like it's just funny totally the audience have to fill in the gaps which is where it's just exactly because he sees 7b and he stands up he's so upset he says this is terrible and then he asks if there were any witnesses and i said this is where we get to the crux of the issue because she says no yeah and this changes the tone then it's not

funny anymore. He now says, you know, that complicates things. And she's like, you don't believe me. And this is where he just continues to say all the wrong things. And he says, it's not a question of whether or not I believe you. It's just that without substantial evidence, it's just your word against his and a man's career is at stake. Now, on the other hand, we have this whole thing. This is a complicated topic. Believe women. However, there are horrific cases of people falsely reporting things as well. So you do have to

hopefully have enough evidence, which is why I would also hope that keeping dates and documenting and all, you know what I'm saying? Because what I'm thinking is like, this is not the first time this professor has done this. So like the reason you have to take this report, Dean Tucker, is because when the next woman comes and says that Professor Cooper did this to her, then that's the evidence. Yes, I know. To your point. Yes, we hear it all the time. This ends with him saying, unfortunately, there's nothing I could do. And he basically ushers her out of the office. Yes. But before that, let's go back to this. He says a man's career is at stake.

And she rightly so says, well, so is mine. Yes. Not to mention my dignity. Yes. You know? And like, and again, it's like, it's protecting the perpetrator more than the victim. 100%. So as he's ushering her out, this is maybe my favorite line of the entire episode. But that's not fair. Ms. Devereaux, life is not fair. I should know. I'm 43 years old. And until today, I never even heard of 7B. Oh.

Well, I've known about it for some time. And as far as I'm concerned, you can go do it to yourself. It is so good. Yeah, I have the 7B. I have here big red letters. Such a funny callback. Yes. And then, of course, such a great ending to this game. So I'm going to mini deep dive on this guy. James Staley is his name. This is a very mini, mini deep dive. But he was very good in this. I love a mini ditty. Mini ditty.

I came up with that today. Do you like it? I love a mini-ditty. It's a mini-ditty. Oh, I love it. You know, the Cheesecakes are doing their own deep dives in the Facebook group. Somebody did. Oh, no shit. No, I knew this was coming and that we would look terrible at our jobs because, you know, they're just like. It's like episodes we haven't gotten to yet. So this one did a mini deep dive on Teddy because that's what Phil Petrillo was buried in and they didn't know what it was. So they did a deep dive in the Facebook group. I love it. So anyway, this actor, James Staley, I think is how you say his name. I read up.

bunch of interviews with this guy. He seems like just a happy, grateful, retired actor now. Born on May 20th, 1948 in Oklahoma City. Normal childhood, 1970, he was working on his master's degree at Brandeis University when he appeared with Maureen O'Sullivan in The Glass Menagerie. Yeah. After which, the star's agent asked him to come to New York. Her agent thought he was so good. He was like, come to New York for the week and let's see if we can

get you to work. He said he was only planning to stay for one day, but at his first audition in New York City, he booked an understudy gig paying $350 a week on Broadway. The show was called... You said the shit was called. The shit was called. What was that shit called? What was that shit called? The show was called Promenade All, and he understudied Eli Wallach and Hume Cronin. Shit.

shit. Interesting, right? Yeah. For seven years, he lived and worked in... That was some shit. That was some shit. For seven years, he lived and worked in New York City on Broadway, off Broadway, and waiting tables before moving to California and finding immediate success. He booked his first gig on TV within three weeks of moving to LA. I mean, this is all meant to be. He's a firsty-firsty on Broadway, firsty-firsty on TV. Firsty-firsty. So over his years in the business,

he did guest starring roles on tv and film and over 300 national commercials shit back in the day when like commercials actually made money yeah right i remember yeah so that was a good gig for him according to his website james staley is happily retired from acting he is very grateful for the great adventure the performers provided him he's been an emmy judge the last 30 years and he's active with his two sons and their families what a nice life what a nice life how

I love it. I know. And he was great in this episode. It was great. She's known about 7B for quite some time. And as far as she's concerned, he can go do it to himself. I thought it was really wonderful. Okay. Now, the next scene, we're in the kitchen. This is the scene within the scene that I think is so funny. It is smart. Blanche enters the kitchen. Rose is there. And the two ladies are in two very different places. Yes. And that different place energy continues throughout the scene. Because Blanche wants to tell Rose about what just happened with Dean Tucker. Yes, yes. And Rose wants to tell Blanche, essentially, she won tickets.

to see Frank Sinatra because she was listening to a radio station she doesn't usually listen to and they want to call her number 12 and that's her lucky number and she pulled over and she keeps dimes for the pay phone in the car handle and she called in and she wins. That's right. And you hear the audience go, ooh-ah, basically. Yes. When we learn that after all

all of this sturm und drang about the tickets and the inability to get them. Yeah. By God, she got four of them. She got four of them, exactly. Woo-hoo, woo-hoo. So after telling her story, she's about to walk out and Blanche says, Rose Nyland, you get your bohookus back in here and listen to what I have to say. And Rose feels bad, you know. But the word bohookus. I know. I just thought that was so great. The rarely used bohookus. Yes. Yes.

And so, you know, I'm sorry, but what were you trying to tell me? And just as she starts, Dorothy bursts in and Dorothy's now gotten the Sinatra tickets. She's got three tickets to Old Blue Eyes. It's finally going to happen. And Rose, of course, is nervous because she's already gotten tickets. So what are they up to seven now? Right. And so like Blanche is still trying to tell her story. But now Rose and Dorothy are having their conversation about the ticket. She did go to a scalper. Yes.

And the woman, I hate this word, let her buy the tickets. You know, like God only knows how much they were. Dorothy pretended she only had two weeks to live or whatever. Yes. And so Blanche is still, throughout all of this, Blanche is still trying to get a word in edgewise, which she can't. But Rose interjects again to tell Dorothy this story. And just this hilariously perfectly written, you know, little monologue for Blanche. I was driving down Biscayne Boulevard. No, no, no.

No. Please, I cannot bow that again. She was listening to her car radio. Big band, not all talk. There was a contest. Something about a little voice, a lucky number, and a dime and a door handle. Then, bim, bam, boom, she won the tickets. Take a lesson, Rose. That's how you tell a story.

Take a lesson, Rose. That's how you tell a story. So good. Now, they're promising Blanche she can tell her story. And just as she starts, Sophia bursts in. And what? She also got tickets. She also got tickets. Now, Blanche throws her head down on the table. And I just love this part so much. So Sophia says, so big talker, did you get mitts on any tickets? And Doris says, as a matter of fact, I did. Three tickets, rear orchestra. Three tickets, third row center. And they're like, how did you get them? And she goes, easy, I called Frank. I called Frank. I told you I had connections. LAUGHTER

You know Frank Sinatra? No, Frank Caravici. From the fish market. He's always been good to me, never a bad piece of cod. He knows Frank. Sinatra? No, Frank Tortoni, the dry cleaner. Tina's third cousin once removed. Tina Tortoni? Tina Sinatra!

Tina Sinatra! And I am, my head is on the table. I'm like pounding it against it. I'm laughing so hard. So funny. It's so good. And again, just three francs. Thank you. Oh my God. And so now, you know, there's the conversation. What are they going to do with all 10 tickets? And Dorothy is convincing Rose they've earned the right to scalp the tickets. So just keep that in the back.

of your mind. And she thinks she's doing a good thing. Like, whoever gets them is going to be grateful. Because you can imagine, too. First of all, they're legitimate tickets and Dorothy's not going to price gouge anybody. Exactly. She's not that person. But, you know, it comes back to Blanche and it's like, okay, girls, like, tell your story now. And Blanche is like, you know what? Forget it. And this is kind of an important moment for Blanche because she's saying, like, you know, what I've learned through this

is I need to handle this myself. Yeah, which is a growth experience most of us could benefit from actually. You know, like how to regulate your own emotions 101, you know? So in the next scene, we're back in the classroom and Blanche is the only one in the room taking the final. And I was like, I guess we're to understand that she was so focused on taking the final that she didn't see everybody else leave. Right. But it's just Blanche and the professor and you can feel the tension.

Right? Because he's kind of walking around her. And then he says, pencils down, as though it was like a timed test. It is a timed test. And this is where I have, the fact that it's timed and the fact that no students are left. Yes. And the fact that she's writing furiously, it leads me to believe it's not a bubble fill-in circle situation. She has to write seriously.

some sort of essay-like answers. And they're like alone in the room, you know, like, so we're all kind of feeling uncomfortable. And, you know, this is where he gets like extra sleazy. He says to her, looks like we're finally at a crossroads. And Blanche is saying, what do you mean? And he said, I mean, you've been having trouble with this course and I'd hate to see you have to repeat it. Right. And Blanche coming in, she says, look, you know, Professor Cooper, I've been thinking about what you said and I have no intention of repeating this course. And he says, I'm glad you decided to take me up on my

offer like who wants to have sex with a person under these circumstances it's so gross and she says oh I'm declining your offer but I do want to thank you and he says for what and then we have a great great monologue worthy of Julia Sugarbaker maybe even better it's really I have clap clap clap at the end well thanks to you I studied all day and all night

And whenever I felt like giving up, I would just think about what kind of man you really are, and I'd study even harder. In fact, you made me so mad, I decided to get an A on this test come hell or high water. And I think I did. I, sir, am a lady. Maybe not the smartest lady in the world, but I do know that my self-respect is more important than passing your damn course. So you, sir, can kiss my ass.

And it's just so good. It's just, it's so good. So here we are and Blanche is asleep wearing her school outfit. Yeah, we're back at home. She's asleep on a living room chair. She's awoken by the gaggle of three coming in at 2 a.m. We find out that they have missed the concert because Dorothy scalped the tickets to an undercover cop. And they got arrested. They got arrested.

Oh, God. So they go to jail for a little while, right? Yes. And like Rose is saying, if my reputation will be ruined if this ever gets back to the people of St. Olaf and Dorothy is just in full rage. What do they do? Rose, revoke your ice fishing license. Or she says, take back your helmet with the horns. And there's so funny because Rose says, they're called Longenherden. What is called Longenherden?

with the horns. They're called lug and herd. Yeah.

But, you know, it gets to them finally asking Blanche about, like, what happened. And she says, you know, I think I passed with flying colors. But best of all, I told off that nasty old professor. That's right. Honey, congratulations. You're going to be a college graduate. And Rose says we're so proud of you. And so Blanche is going to get the promotion, right? Oh, no. Didn't I tell you that position was filled? Oh, you're kidding. No, the museum director gave it to Sally Fogelson. The money I spent on tuition, she spent on a tummy tuck and a butt lift.

Well, Ange, I hope you're not discouraged. Oh, not one bit. My time will come. One day her butt will turn to mush, but I'll always have my degree.

And my dad, a teacher by, you know, trade, always said that, you know, education is never lost. So I love that she did it anyway for her and ultimately for the right reasons because what she gained was far better in many respects. Totally. But at the end of the day, still lost out to a woman who felt like she had to use sex appeal to get a job. Yeah, exactly. Interesting way to end the episode. Yeah.

Cheesecakes, when we come back, you're going to hear my brand new interview with Stan Zimmerman all about this episode of The Golden Girls, which he wrote with his writing partner, James Berg. It's a fun interview. He even gives us like new information, stuff we didn't know before. I cannot wait for you to hear it. And you're going to get that in just a second when we come back.

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Oh, Stan Zimmerman, hi! Hi! Does anybody call you Stanny? Because I want to call you Stanny. Stanny? You can. I get Stan Lee, and that's usually people that knew me, like, in the second grade. Uh-huh. But Stanny, I don't get a lot, so let's do it. That's okay. I've had Stashik, which is, I think, Russian? What? Is that a nickname? It is the Russian version of Stanley, I think. I don't know, but I kind of like that, too. Do you know that I was almost Stanley? Did I tell you this last time? No, what? My dad is the third in a line of Stanleys.

I was going to be the fourth, and then they decided not to name me Stanley. I think we should just change your name. Just be Stanley. Or just the fourth. Quad. Let's call me Quad. Okay, well, that could mean a lot of things, so I don't know if we should get into that. But I'm so glad to be back here, and I've been following you guys and everything you're doing, and just the support you've gotten from the Golden Girls community. It's wild. They've fallen in love with you because you two are so fucking funny. Can I say that? Please. Okay. Say it again. Okay.

Yeah, let's do it in...

Whenever you want. I'm always available. Well, listen, you're here mostly to talk about adult education. Yes, and I rewatched it. You did? Okay, good. I did. So this is the deep dive. I had to look at it through your eyes. Like, what would you pick apart? And why are they all wearing those crazy sweaters in Miami? But the first scene is, like, wild. Listen, before we get into, like, discussing the major theme of the episode, I have episode-specific questions that are kind of random. Okay. Okay.

I realized that as I was watching the episode the first time preparing for the episode that Jen and I recorded, I was texting you every 10 minutes, like the funniest lines from the episode. So my question is, do you regret giving me your phone number? No, not at all. Bug me at all times, morning, noon, and night. And rewatching it, I forgot that episode is chock full of like now classics.

Classic lines. Classic lines. And classic runs. The whole Tina Sinatra run. That Tina... Who wrote that? Did you write that? What do you mean, who wrote that? Was it you or Jim? Or, like, did you do it together? Oh, me and Jim. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That bit of, like, Tina Sinatra! Yeah. That we went around. It is so genius. And we talk about this in our recap about what's so great about this episode is that there are scenes within scenes. And you don't see that that often.

and it's layered and that moment... Or that's how you tell a story? Yes. Like that to make fun of her telling a story, the dime in the door handle and then... Oh my God. Like the recap of this story. It's almost as though you're good at this, Dan. I remember sitting in our little office on Sunset Gower writing that specific scene and because my mother always said keep, you know...

couple of dimes in the door handle. You know we're going to need it. Yes. I still, do I have two dimes? No. What am I going to do with two dimes now? Nothing. I have questions about the process in a minute. First, I want to say, I imagine this is the question you get the most about this episode. 7B. What is 7B? I can't say because I think we should keep it like a work of art and everybody interpret it the way they want. And it says a lot about the person, what they think it is. Or because

Because the dean doesn't... Had never heard of it, maybe it's like... Do you know what it is? Is it a specific thing? In my mind, but... It is. Oh, I'm dying to know. Because, like, the fact that the dean has never heard of whatever this sex act is... Right. ...means... Like, he seems to like... It's an act, but then it's not A, 7A. It's 7B. 7B! Like, we're so crazy that we went down to 7, and then there's...

Is there a C? Like, what would C and D be? What would they be? I don't know. And Blanche has known about it for some time. Well, she's done, you know, every position, upside down, mirrors, you know. Who knows what she's done? Do people always badger you about what is 7B? I don't consider it badgering. I consider it like a badge of honor, maybe. But I think it's really sweet that people...

Love that and have been clued into that. I did notice, remember I told you last time that we had the ER sound of the names? Oh, yeah. Well, it's the Tucker and... Coach Tucker and Dean, what's his name? And Professor... Professor Cooper, yes. So we did two right there. I mean, that is so fucking cheesy. What is wrong with us? You know... Easy laugh. I gotta tell you, speaking of these two...

These are some of the best guest actors on the series. Yes. So Jerry Harden, I was doing a little deep dive on him in the episode. Do you know that he's Melora Harden's dad? Do you know who she is? Yes, I do. Jan from The Office? I've auditioned her. You have? For the first pilot we did called Road Warriors, which was kind of Cheers. It was before Up in the Air, remember? It was about traveling salesmen. Oh. And it ended up being Sean Astin and Elaine Hendricks. Oh my God. For the Elaine Hendricks part.

Laura Harden was one of the finals in it. Mariska Hargitay. Wow. Doing a comedy. Don't tell Natalie. Natalie is obsessed with Mariska Hargitay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She was great. In this episode, Dorothy is obsessed with seeing Frank Sinatra. Yes. Is that a thing for you? Where did that come from? Oh,

Uh, we wanted somebody really big. I do remember my parents went to, wasn't it Sammy and Frank Sinatra did a concert? And in Detroit, I remember my parents, you know, they would go out on a Saturday night and that was like a big concert for them. So I just remember that. But there's so many references. Mrs. Lenhoff. Uh-huh. She was our librarian at my elementary school. Oh my God. She's the one who opened the Ben Breakfast in Woad Island. Yeah. Yes. I don't know if that's politically correct these days, but making fun of that.

But she was really tough and really mean. And I did write her and say, you know, your name is going to be mentioned. So we did have a correspondence years later. Did she like it? Oh, my God. She was so proud and flattered. Yeah. That was really cool. And then the hairdresser, Ronald. Yes. That was my mother's hairdresser. You know, I had a whole theory about Ronald in our recap where I'm like, you know, he's the bitchy gay guy that.

is very punctual. Yes. And he, like, if you are 10 minutes late, you're getting that bad hair dryer. A couple times I did go with my mother. I was like, do you want to go with me? And she'd go, yeah, I do, you know. I was, like, watching Steel Magnolias live before Steel Magnolias. And I, for the longest time, probably somewhere in my house, I have a comb that says, like, hair by Ronald. No!

No. Yes, I should bring that up. I probably could sell it to a cheesecake person. Totally. We got to at least put a picture of it in the Facebook group. Yes, I got to find that. Ronald is a real person. Yeah, and I remember where it was, like on Southfield Road, and it was like a converted house, and all the ladies would go there and gossip.

Oh, my God. And I mean, I didn't know if he was gay at the time, but I'm sure. Yeah. Like who else would just call it? Of course. By Ronald. Come on. That's not a straight man's name. Not at all. So it's always fun to put people you know or references like that in the shows. What about the bar Wally's? This is the first time we hear about Wally's. Did you guys make it up? Because it's kind of famous. It's like in the Golden Girls lore, we looked it up to see if there was like a real Wally's. And do they ever mention it ever again? I don't know because...

Because it's like Blanchard's going to the petting zoo. Yeah, other places. The rusty anchor. The rusty anchor. It's like, that gets all the attention. Nobody speaks of Wally's. The latest night at Wally's. I'm going to have to bring that back. Totally. Also, I read in the IMDB trivia that this is the first episode

episode that Rose mentions that she's from St. Olaf. Are you serious? That's what it says on IMDb. I've been wondering that because I do remember being in the writer's room in which room we were in a side room and we were all saying, all right, we're going to have to mention where she's from. And we're like, bring in a phone book, like, like different names of cities. And back then you had to check to make sure there was no Rosen Island in that city. So we...

Oh. And I ended up seeing Olaf in the room. Not knowing it would turn into like what it became. Yeah. And then Sue Palladino or Marcia Posner-Williams, I guess, went off and checked to see if there was and they came back and said, we're good. It's in. And then

But I wonder, like, I remember that meeting. I didn't know if it was connected to our episode. So I feel like I should get... That you should get some kind of credit for this? Some compensation or something, right? I mean, you told us in your last episode that you guys created the Dorothy look. Yes. That's... That's worth something. You contributed to television history. Yes. And so if you also invented... But it is going to have to other people do it. And I've read...

spec scripts from writers, and it says, shoots a look. That was all. We made that up. Wow. To write it that way. And that was the thing. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah. Last question before we get into the theme of the episode. I've seen pictures of you wearing a No, I Will Not Have a Nice Day t-shirt. Yes. Is that merch that you made yourself, or have you seen that other places? No, that's all...

And I have to pay for it most of the time, unless I can deal with these people. You wrote the line! I know! But I have them in mugs now. It's so good. When I went to the Golden Con in Chicago, I did buy a yellow phone and a cord. So you'll see a couple people, like I went around the party, it was a costume night.

And so everyone wanted a picture with me with the phone and the cord and we played. Oh my God. That's so good. I'll have to bring it to New York and have you guys talk on it. When we sell merch, I want a t-shirt that says great at 7B. Okay. Wouldn't that be funny? I do have, someone said you want to make a t-shirt and I do have a, I sir am a lady and

And then on the back, you can kiss my A. You can kiss my A. Yeah. Well, okay. Let's get into the thrust of this episode. So this episode is mostly about Blanche being sexually harassed by her professor. And the thing that we really couldn't get over, Jen and I, in our conversation about it. Where is that Jen? Who's Jen again? Yeah, huh? She's getting a little gig. Mother Jen.

Cheesecake isn't here right now because she's in lockdown preparing to open Death Becomes Her in November. Oh, my God. We banked like the entire first season in like three months. Every day we were recording episodes. Must be tuckered out. But you know what? She's a workhorse, that one. She like doesn't get tired. I know. But we were saying the magic of this episode is that you take a really serious subject and make it really funny. So the question is,

Did you know you'd be able to do that? Like, why did you choose the theme of sexual harassment? And how did you know that you'd be able to successfully do it in a way that like didn't piss people off? That's a lot of questions. And I'm not going to repeat a single one of them. We'll break it down. So they did teach us on that show. And I might have said this last time, but so what? To not treat Golden Girls like the facts of life. And they did very special episodes. Yeah. So their shows were, you know, kind of silly and of that genre. Yeah.

And then suddenly it was like, oh my God, we're doing a heavy subject. They wanted Golden Girls to come out naturally of subjects that these women would really deal with and just be a fabric of the show. Yeah. Make it really funny, but also be really real. Reminiscent of the Maude abortion episodes. Yes. Although Maude, I don't think was as joke heavy as Golden Girls to me. I will say, I did a deep dive on the Maude abortion episodes. They are hilarious.

They are so funny. But normally, was the show as funny? I don't think so. I haven't watched much of Maude, but maybe not. We did watch, in the beginning of the pandemic, we watched some of it, and no, not nearly a joke. I mean, they didn't have like a Sophia character that just came doing like a bang, bang, bang, bang, bang joke. Definitely not. No, not at all.

that. And then, and this is all in my book. Tell them the name of the book. The Girls from Golden to Gilmore. Stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with. And? Roseanne. So early on, on set, Rue McClanahan came over to me and Jim. Yes. And anytime any actor would come over, besides Estelle, because we were friends with her, but any of the others never came over. So when they, she, all of a sudden, like, there we were talking to her. Wow. Petrified. So it wasn't like a, you wouldn't just have a casual conversation with Bea. No.

Wow. You know, like I told this when we got stuck in the elevator with Bea, like little time you'd end up with people, but usually they were on the set with the director and working things out. And the writers would kind of, especially us, because we were just staff writers. So young, yeah. So we were just like, we're in the corner, like, you know, shivering in our boots. Wow. And she like made a beeline for us. And she said, I really want you to challenge my character. You know, my roots are in theater. And like, I think that's the best way to really dig in. And we're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we're like, and so we went back to her office and like, what does that mean? And so, well, let's really challenge who is Blanche. Remember, this is season one. So we're just discovering who they are. But you knew that her big thing was she liked to have sex a lot and often in many different positions. So what storyline could we give her?

to challenge that she could use sex as the easy way out, but that personally she didn't want to. Yeah. Give her a moral dilemma. And then we came up with sexual harassment. I don't know how or why. I mean, we're very sensitive fellas. Yeah. And we're like, I'm always taking in news and stories. And I remember even I used the excuse of, I have to have a subscription to People magazine because it's full of stories. Totally. But I just love...

Just reading, you know, and that People magazine back in the day, I think they still do now. Yeah. And they always had like real life stories along with, you know, celebrity stories. So I would like, you know, rip things out and keep folders. But back then, you know, people did talk a little bit about sexual harassment, but it was still... Pre-Anita Hill. Yeah. I mean, it was all taboo still. But I was just aware that women were having to go through that and obviously felt terrible. And, you know, back then it really was a he said, she said thing. And it still is in a way. Yeah.

And then we're like, oh, this is perfect. And so we went in and pitched it to the room and they were like, oh my God, this is great. So go for it. It's funny because like what you guys nail is you really feel Blanche's dilemma. So one of the things that's so interesting is that in the scene where the professor makes it clear if she has sex with him, he'll pass her in the class. Before that moment happens, she flirts with him. And so you can see that she finds him attractive and she's kind of like...

even puts her hand up in a way of like, as opposed to like a firm handshake. It's like a, you know, a more professional thing. That's her character. And that is so interesting. And that's one of the big questions that Cheesecakes had was, you know, why did you, and it's so well done. Did it feel brave to sort of take that kind of, that it wasn't a black and white, he's a horrible person who did this horrible thing, though he is. Mm-hmm.

It opens with her kind of being sexual, and then it turns into a thing where she, like, now is being put in a position to, like, have to use sex to get what she wants or whatever. And it's very uncomfortable. I think it's the style of the show, the style of writing for us and what we were learning, that it really was... It didn't feel like we had to, like, rush to tell the story. It wasn't black and white. It was shades of people. Yeah. And that's what I really loved about that. For shows like Roseanne. But...

We, I think, found a lot of sitcoms. It was, you know, like Laverne and Shirley and that's its own genre. But it was, they were cartoony. And I loved this show. It seemed like they wanted us to kind of peel away the layers of character. There's nuance. Nuance, yeah. Yeah. I just didn't see that a lot in sitcom writing. So that's why I think we were just like, and Cheers had come out and that was our spec script that got us working. We're like, we want to do things like that. They were character-based. Yeah. Joke-based. Yeah. Because we really felt like we're not,

funny people. And yet... Isn't that wild? I mean... It's a character I can write, but jokes, I didn't feel like I could do. But a bling, but a bang joke. Yeah, but you do and you nail it. Yeah. Well, we were taught that by every one of Estelle's lines had to be... Yeah. And the hole in the purse thing and I haven't had sex and the phenom in the rain bonnet. Like,

Those are classic runs. Yes. That I was like, wow, they're all in this one? I know. Genius. And I think another, one of my questions was like, you know, the show was written by two men, directed by a man, telling a woman's experience in a very specific way. And I was wondering how you,

So, you know, you're saying you read stories in People magazine and that was where you would get your ideas. Did you speak to women who experienced things like this? I saw those questions. Yeah. No, I mean, I've read a lot about it. And I don't know how heavy you want to get, but I had an experience. Really? In New York, my first job out. It didn't get sexual, but it felt uncomfortable and like some massaging shoulders. And I just knew at the time it was wrong. Yep. And I...

I kind of giggled it off, which is what people did back then. And you didn't have HR to go to, really. Yeah. So, and I don't mean to compare my story with women that have had, can we say, sexual assault. Of course. I know on TikTok you have to say, you know. Oh, yeah. You can say anything here. I've always believed if you're empathetic, you can feel inspired.

and tell other people's stories. You don't necessarily have to have experienced it exactly, but it is talking and listening and reading. And I love, and I think it makes us all better, stronger people by able to put your feet in the shoes of other human beings. And so for me, that's what I love to do in my writing. It's like, what would that feel like if, and I think we just can grow as better people.

I think probably the line of the episode that I think stands out to most people, other than like the funny lines, but like the poignant moment that I think most people go like, oh my God. And this is certainly the feedback that we got from the cheesecakes was when Blanche is talking to Dean Tucker and she says like, you don't believe me. And he says, it's not that I don't believe you, but without any witnesses, it's just your word against his and a man's career is at stake. Yes. So that came from like,

Real things that I noticed of that time, that's what the response was in a lot of those cases, which I'd be like, that's not fair. Right. But then when you look at something, I don't know how politically you want to get, like Brett Kavanaugh. Oh, yeah. I have in my own family, they said, well, you know, they ruined Brett Kavanaugh's career. I'm like, he's on the Supreme Court. He's doing just fine. Yeah. You know, and I really wanted to say, like,

if your daughter had come home from college and like, what would you do? But people just didn't want to believe. And especially a character like Blanche. I mean, if any of her roommates had been questioned, they'd be like, oh yeah, sure. She would, you know, and that's what made it so not black and white.

And that was more smart writing, was that when Blanche comes home and tells the roommates what she's experienced, nobody laughs. Nobody makes fun of her. Nobody says, like, you're obviously going to go do this, right? Or how did you make this happen? Or, sure, Blanche, like, were you flirting? Yeah, we didn't do any of that. They believe her right away, and they also share their own experiences. Yes, that was a big thing of the show.

Something would come up and then everybody would share. And we noticed that in many of the episodes. So that's why we just wrote everyone would talk about. And, you know, obviously Rose would have the ice cream and something slightly different. So good. And, you know, that was fun. And then like Dorothy was hit on by the principal in the corset and heels. Yes. Yeah.

Well, I kind of forgot about that. I'm like, whoa. Like, I don't know how I feel about that now. Yeah. Well, that's my question a little bit is we've talked about this a little bit before. Will you tell us a little bit about how you write an episode? Like, is it you and Jim locked in a room and you bang it out and then you bring it to the restroom? Well, they don't lock us in. No, you're locked in. No food or water. No, nothing.

No, you are in your room and you come up with like a bunch of pitch ideas for episodes and you go and you pitch them to the room on that show. Yeah. And then they go, oh, that's great. Now we'll either all figure it out in the room, the beats of the show, or you go off and you figure out the, you know, break it down into the different acts and what are the act breaks. And then you come back and you pitch and they usually come up with what B story. So there's an A story and a B story. So that was obviously the A story and the B story was something lighter like

the Frank Sinatra which was great by the way sometimes the B stories of the Golden Girls are not strong this one was so strong well then you look at my uh uh Blanche and the Younger Man those are two really strong so strong I mean those are almost two A's they are they feel like two A's yeah yeah this one was more conventional sitcom writing of like something really important and heavy and then something really really light although it meant a lot to Dorothy like that she just

couldn't get she just can't catch a break yeah poor dorothy yeah poor dorothy um and then they have with all those tickets which was right it was so like unexpected and prison which is just like they always end up in jail well that was like a thing back then like every show like it was either talent show or they were in prison in jail not prison they got a prison no you're right it's a local jail you know you know where there are some colorful hookers you know

You know, so that was foreshadowing. I should have got story credit for that episode later on. Is there any discussion in the room about the nuance? You know, like, okay, this is kind of a heavy subject. We want to make sure we do this right. Like, do they talk to you all about that or it's just left to you to do it right? They don't talk to us about that. So interesting. They expect it to be. And that's, you know, I think they saw...

from our very first episode that we treated it with class and dignity, but with also heart. Yes. And we didn't make anything light of it. I mean, we got in there. We weren't afraid of being heavy, but we also went back and could lean on some really great jokes. Yes. And that combination was...

really hard to find. Not to put down later years, but sometimes when I watch episodes later on, they put things in the lady's mouth that seem slightly more vulgar to me that they say. I wouldn't have written it that way, but that's, you know, maybe they've just gone through every joke. I don't know. You know, this episode to me is so confirming that you and Jim weren't asked back

because you were gay. It has to be that because this episode, and we were talking a little bit earlier about that whole bit with the tickets in the end with the Tina and this and that. You don't see scenes like that in other episodes. Jen and I were losing our minds over that moment because it feels like a play. It feels like comedians at the height of their careers doing the best material they've ever had. That moment is so funny. I was re-watching it again today before you came. I was scream laughing. It's so funny.

And I'm rewatching, noticing they're not one-liners. No. Which we never felt we could do. They are like in a play. Yes. You would have a run and it would come to something really funny and then do callbacks later. But there's whole bits of those. Yes. And there's just a number of them. Then you go, wow, that was really clever. And it's funny.

But I wish we could have had more opportunities to do that, but that's what happened. As a viewer, you're watching it. A moment like that is so thrilling because you're kind of following the ping pong and every character is involved and then the payoff in the end is so good. I mean, even like just as Blanche going to get the ice cream, like, you better leave the room. And the look on her face.

when Rose leaves the room. Yes. I mean, it's just subtle and it wasn't like a big joke, but it was all character stuff. Did Rue give you feedback after reading the script? I really don't remember. I mean, that was our second episode. I mean, we were just petrified so much of the time. Yeah. And we just wanted to keep the job and so we didn't really want to be pushy or throw ourselves at the lead actresses. I mean,

we were just little baby writers. So we just kind of tiptoed around and really only talked to people when they talked to us. Yeah. Which, I mean, that would be completely different. I mean, that's why I wish we had a way to go back and be able to talk to them. But I, you know, have spent time with Melinda, her sister. Oh, yeah. On the cruise, on the Golden Fantasy cruises. So it's almost like talking to Rue. Uh-huh. We had

had this really cute relationship now. So I get to say a lot of the things or ask questions about Rue that I wish I'd had the nerve, you know, back then when I was just a pipsqueak. Just a little bit. Yes. But can I tell you what I did notice? Please. So you know when you see she's studying and she has her little notebook? Yeah. Okay, I never noticed this until the other day when I watched it. I was like, what is she studying? Did you see? No. Pause it and look. What is it? I noticed it was like all these numbers and I'm going, but what...

class was she even did we even say what class she was taking yeah you know what class she was the psychology class right but did she say it i saw it on the board did she ever say it i think it was i think she uh but now i don't remember yeah it is on definitely on the chalkboard yeah so it's like all these numbers on it i'm like going well that looks like math yeah i got very confused oh funny but you know what it is what then

And later in the episode, when she says Professor Cooper takes the thing and writes his phone number down, they must have used the same notebook in rehearsal. He must have kept writing a number down. And so that's why it's like numbers. Oh, my God. How many times they rehearsed it, he just wrote the numbers down. Isn't that crazy? That's so funny.

funny ever noticed that oh my god i did my homework you did that's a great outtake i'm like i'm i'm pulling jen and that's very deep very deep she would look and she would notice yeah yeah well final question i guess people always want to know they always want to ask you if there's anything that you feel like you shouldn't tell us but you do want to tell us that i shouldn't tell

I don't know if people really care about the minutia of, you know, like the producers and all that. We care about all of that. I mean, I think people really want to know about the ladies and what that was like. And, you know, I've talked a little bit about just the fear and, you know, between the two shows and we would have dinner and they would all be in their robes.

And I would just be like, I don't want to know what's under the robe. And like, I don't even wear a robe around my house. Like, no, they were just wearing robes to dinner. Like, that's just crazy. Right. So, you know, just being in their sphere. I'm so glad that I was raised to just appreciate moments. And I think that's also my acting training was like you be present. And so when I got to be in this situation, I was really present and really taking in and

so appreciative that I was on this show at this moment in this lifetime and that it was one of our early jobs and in my group of young friends to have like a real big job like that. And so I had friends, you know, I kind of forgot. People are like, you know, I was at that taping and you had me come there. And so I'm glad that I was able to bring them in and to experience it, the joy and the love of this.

huge tidal wave that just keeps going and going and going. I mean, all these years later, it just never stops. And it shouldn't. And thanks to, you know, what you all are doing here. Yeah. It just keeps the dream alive and it gets to look at it in different angles that I don't think people have really, you know, picked it apart. Yeah.

You know, it's fun to do. It's just an homage to the show. It's all love for the world. There's something really fun about getting to like point out inconsistencies. Oh, my God. So many. So many people didn't care then. No, but we always had that attitude where people go, it's just a TV show. Yeah. And I would be like, no, it's not a TV show. And they're like,

And I got into trouble. Like, I don't know if I told you this story, like we didn't get a job on staff on Full House because someone said I had an attitude. It's because I would bring up things like that. I go, no, we should think about she said this on that last episode. We can't do that again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like people I know saw like, what episode did you never do? Like we kept pitching.

let's resolve the Coco story. And they were just like, no. Oh, like bring him back for an episode? Well, what happened to him? I was like, and of course, those gay people were like, let's do something fun or he comes back for some big thing. He's just gone. And they never wanted to do it? If we don't talk about it, he's just gone. Oh,

Not knowing that there would be lots of reruns and people. 40 years later, some gay guy and a Broadway star in a booth. Yeah. Screaming, where's Coco? Or, you know, there'd be like now there's, you know, university classes in Golden Girls. Wow. They would want to know. But, you know, maybe they just didn't really want to deal with the gay thing.

thing then? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. You know, I think they were really protective with Thomas that first season. Yeah. They knew they had something special. So they, it's very rare that like non-writing producers would be in the writer's room after the run throughs. Yeah. Usually they'd come in, give notes and then leave. They sat there, they wanted to know which joke. And then maybe when it got to like dinner time and they had a screening or something more fabulous, they would leave. But

They had to know, like, we were under control. Wow. And had, like, these six joke areas to do. Yeah. So having them in the room, and it was like, and it was with Thomas. Wow. It was scary. Yeah. And they weren't particularly open and friendly to us. So again, it was just a lot of fear in that room.

And I've talked about that. Yeah. It's a crazy back behind the scenes to know that stuff. But no other writer's room has been like that, where writers were afraid to just pitch anything. Yeah. To me, the writer's room was always like, you just say the stupidest stuff. And you can say like, you know, that was really dumb. But what if we twisted it into that way? But for some reason, they didn't want that room to be like that.

Well, you are a gem. We are obsessed with you. Will you come back again and again and again? I'm just going to circle the building until, you know, like invite him up. It's getting cold out there. It's Danny. It's cold. Give me a dunk and I'll get up here. Yes. And we're going to do a happy hour. I love that. The happy hour is fun. I hope I wasn't too intrusive. No, you're perfect. And next time you're a co-host. This is great. Great. Thanks, Danny. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Oh, Cheesecakes, thank you so much for listening to this episode. Hey, go join the Facebook group. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast discussion group so that you can be the first to submit questions the next time we do an interview like this. And also just to meet your fellow Cheesecakes and just like have a fun place to go hang out on the internet. Who doesn't want that? And we are currently scheduling our next Zoom happy hour with Stan. So stay tuned for that. And Mother Cheesecake will be back right here with me in the Studs. We love you. All right, bye. Bye.

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