The True Limiting Factors in Your Life (With Tom Bilyeu)
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What up, what up? Listen, Black Friday week is here, and that means you can save big on questions for humans decks and my book, Building a Non-Anxious Life and more at ramsaysolutions.com slash store.

People confuse positive thinking with empowerment. Positive thinking is about optimizing your life for things that make you feel expansive, but that is not going to help you build a better life. What will help you build a better life is empowerment. Empowerment is approaching your life like an engineer. You need to first understand how the world actually works. What up? What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. I'm so glad that you are here.

So glad that you're here. Hope your relationships are doing okay. I hope your mental and emotional health is okay. Not that we have an election going on. Kelly, is the election over by the time we're putting this out? Yes, the election is over. We know. Well, maybe we know. Maybe we know. Maybe we don't. Who knows? Who knows? Or maybe we are but a speck of dust. I hope not. That's, well, I don't know. Maybe I hope so. I hope not, but we won't know. Yeah.

So, alas, future usses, I hope that you are doing well in this wild season. Hey, we're continuing our interview series.

with a guy that many of you have probably seen. Maybe you've never even heard of this guy, but he is a massive internet presence. He's a massive, he speaks all over the world. His name is Tom Bilyeu. And if you ever eat protein bars and you've seen Quest bars, that's this dude. He made them up like in his house, like in his garage. And they got bigger and bigger and bigger. And he sold the company for a billion dollars.

And then he has gone on to become a massive influencer in his YouTube channel, Impact Theory. And here's the deal. Him and I see the world very differently. He is a tech founder. He's into AI. He is a filmmaker. He is into tons of anime stuff. We just approach the world very, very differently. And between my show and I ended up doing an episode on his show, man, we cover the gamut talking about

all kinds of amazing things. So if you're interested in somebody who just sees the world differently than me, I'm always telling people to get off your screens and go outside and, um, you know, X, Y, and he lives a very different life and it made for a fascinating, fascinating conversation. So turn it up a little bit. Is that what you say when you're like about to rock and roll or something? I don't know. It's too loud. You're too old. Yeah. I don't think you turned it up a little bit. I think we turned it up to 11. Oh my gosh. That was incredible.

That's, hey, in case you're wondering, that's how Kelly produces this show. Let's turn it up to 11. Is that? Nice job. For those that don't know, it's Spinal Tap. It's cool. Hashtag Kelly is old and her influence is just trickling down like Reagan economics. Hey, turn it up and check out my great conversation with Tom Bilyeu. So you know when you're starting to stumble into a new idea or you start hearing it in pockets and you read it and suddenly it's starting to make its way into a new mental model for yourself.

The word that has been circling for me the last 24, 36 months over and over and over again is this idea of choice. And the one thing as I worked in academics for 20 years and as I have transitioned out academics, I recognized that I was a part of a system that I know internally. I know me and the teams that worked for me deeply loved people and deeply tried to take care of people. And at the same time, we told a whole generation of human beings that

Because of this or this or this or this you'll never be fully enough And so y'all go over into the corner and we'll pat you on the head and we'll take care of it for you I realized how pervasive that is that the that the Metacultural narrative is there something wrong with you're not enough and we'll save you just you go into the corner We'll pat you on the head and this idea almost this this this cutting the chains culturally is this word choice like no no you can make a choice and I don't think we have a psychology for that and

Well, we certainly don't enjoy being told that we have agency over our own lives. Why? That feels like it's the most freeing thing. Yeah. So it comes down. So everybody has what I call a frame of reference. Okay. Your frame of reference is your biology, your beliefs, and your values. Okay.

People think that they simply believe the truth. So, Tom, why are you even talking about beliefs? And the reality is that beliefs are chosen because even physics, people don't actually know how all of this works. And so we're trying to approximate. And in the approximation, we confuse that for objective truth. And people don't realize that they have just completely shaped their sense of what the world is. This is why...

A lot of people, I think, underestimate the importance of like the first three to five years of your life because that's locking in all these beliefs about how the world works. And you never realize, oh, that was a three-year-old's mind doing its best to approximate like how do I get safe? Yeah. Not realizing as you get older, some of those beliefs may not actually be useful anymore. And if you updated the belief-

then you could approach the world in a new way. So anyway, you get this frame of reference. You don't even realize you have it, but it is a... It's like wearing a pair of glasses that distort the world, but you don't realize you're wearing glasses. And you certainly don't realize you can actually shape the distortion so that you can see a slightly different variant of the world that may be more useful, even if it's not any more accurate,

It's more useful pushing you towards your goals. And so, one, you have to know what your goals are. You have to understand your own biases and distortions that you live under. I've heard you talk a lot about this. You know that you have a tendency towards anxiety. Of course. So it's like, okay, I have to think about that as I decide how to interpret the world because I'm not going to interpret it perfectly. I'm going to have this— I'm going to interpret it wrong.

Yeah, I'm wrong. And that will make life much easier for you. So if you already know that, then the frame of reference that you have allows you to take in new information. If you have a frame of reference that says I am valuable because I'm better, smarter, faster, stronger, then it's like when somebody's like actually know you're wrong about this thing, your whole worldview then destabilizes. Gotcha. And people will do anything to restabilize their worldview.

There is what I would call an educated middle, a group of people who read well, who have great morning routines, who listen to all the right podcasts, etc. When I think back over the last 20 years of the folks who spent 25, 30 years of their life studying a thing, people who I'd call true subject matter experts, maybe not application experts, but they know this thing really well.

And then I sit with people like you who have been at the top of business, who are putting their relationships on display in certain way, like it's out there, right? - No doubt. - That group of people, they cannot wait to have their mental models disrupted. There is a, I don't wanna say joy, but there is a revelation in being wrong or having someone be like, "No, no, no, look at it this way." And it's like, yes, it's right. It's like, I got another plate on the bar.

Yet this middle, this educated middle feels like, no, no, I've got to get this answer so I can lock into it and never let go of it. How do you teach a group of people to say, no, no, no, there's actually freedom in being wrong? Because you get closer to the truth. There's not freedom in finding this right answer and dying on every hill. Because that feels like what we've done, right? And using your glasses analogy,

It's like we're so afraid to take off our glasses that we're just looking for someone to say, no, you're looking at it the right way. Come be on our team. Does that make sense? It does. So how do I teach it? What I try to get people to focus on is what I call the only belief that matters. Okay. So the only belief that matters is if you put time and energy into getting better at something, you will actually get better at that thing.

That's so amazing how simple it is. Very simple. And if you actually believe that, like if I'm actually right about that, then how you spend your time becomes a spiritual consideration. Correct.

Because you are not locked into who you are today. It's all a question of who you want to become and the price you're willing to pay to get there. Because acquiring those skills is not going to be easy. But it's like, wait, you're telling me I can be so good at guitar that Metallica would call when they go on tour? Right.

That call's coming. Hey, if you put in enough time and energy, it really could. That's the thing. No wink-wink, nudge-nudge. Actually, because they have a set of goals, and that set of goals is to...

touch as many people with their music as humanly possible, to have a group of people that they wanna be around, right? That honestly would probably be the hardest thing you'd bump up against, which is they have a clique of guys that they know and love and they've toured with and they've gone through all of that hardship together. So something would have to happen where that would break. Now they're open again, they have a need. And if you have the skillset and the personality, you really could fill it. Now, people that live their life in that way, like the craziest dream that I have is actually within reach if I put enough time and energy into it.

Those people have the only belief that matters. And now all of a sudden, they know what their goal is. They're working their butt off to get there. They encounter somebody who's like, let me show you how to do this a little bit differently. It'll be a little more efficient and you're more likely to achieve your goal. Now that person's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me more. I want to know what to do.

So I consider myself a filtering mechanism. What I tell people is I'm throwing the bat symbol into the sky and only batmen are gonna respond. Now, when you get here, I'm gonna give you ideas that I have seen in my own life are super efficient at getting you towards your goals.

And I hope that I'm constantly learning from other people as well. So I'm updating it. And I am testing my ideas against the real world. And so if I can get people to buy into that, you can close your eyes, imagine a world better than this one, open your eyes and acquire the skills necessary to actually make that happen. I just sent this out in a tweet. Oh, I never know how people are going to respond. Here, the following statement is true. People confuse positive thinking with empowerment. Okay.

Positive thinking is about optimizing your life for things that make you feel expansive. That's wonderful. I want that for people. I want people to be able to on command make themselves feel expansive versus contracting down, shrinking, feeling like they're in fight or flight mode. But that is not going to help you build a better life. What will help you build a better life is empowerment. Empowerment is approaching your life like an engineer.

you need to first understand how the world actually works. And that's where people go wrong. They don't understand their own psychology. They don't understand the psychology of others. They don't understand culture. They don't understand politics. So there's just a lot of things that they don't understand. And therefore, you're being manipulated by forces. It could be as simple as your microbiome is manipulating you to eat more Oreos. Right, right, right. But if you understand, ah,

Like I have this strong impulse to eat this stuff because of my microbiome. It's crazy. Like who would have thought? So understand how the world works. Understand where you actually are. So what are you good at? What are you not good at? And then understand, the only belief that matters, that you can get good at a thing that matters to you and allows you to help other people, which becomes a really important part of my whole life philosophy. But once you understand that, you put yourself in the driver's seat. But there's

so many layers to peel back, to get people to be emotionally safe enough that they'll actually do it. Because you will, if your world is predicated on, I'm good, I'm smart, I'm talented. And then somebody says there's a better way, that's super destabilizing and

you have to first shift your worldview to something that isn't destabilized when it's challenged. If your worldview grows stronger when it's challenged, I think I've heard you talk about this. So Nassim Taleb wrote a book called Anti-Fragile. Yeah, extraordinary. So you want a worldview that's anti-fragile, meaning the harder people attack it, the stronger it becomes. Right. And the harder your life gets, the harder the external circumstances, the more robust you become. Correct. Yeah, which is extraordinary. How many people...

Think they want a thing when they actually want something else. Here's what I mean. I liked the idea of imagining that James Hetfield calls and says hey John we've heard about you and We want to invite you out on tour by the way. I'm not that good I spent way more time playing in front of the mirror like with what I would look like then actually sitting down and learning how to play Let's say that call came here's what that would cost me I have a 14 year old who's a freshman and I have an eight-year-old as a third grader and

It would cost me all of their games. It would cost me the nighttime wrestling matches with my daughter. And lately, I come home and she says, do you want to dance or do you want to fight? And she's this little bitty hurricane. She's amazing. It would cost me walks with my wife. Like it would come at a cost. And so it's been important for me to peel back what's underneath the I want to be the guitarist of Metallica.

I want people to think I'm capable and I'm good. I, in the deeper, the layers go. I really want my wife to say I'm proud of you. I really want my dad to call out of the blue, my old grizzled cop dad and be like, I haven't said this enough. I'm really proud of you. Right. Um, it has nothing to do with playing guitar.

And so for me, getting to what are you really chasing here and for what? That's been an important lesson for me because I thought that it was about being a number one, being a this and this. And the deeper I've gone, it's now my wife to be really proud of me. I want my kids to when they grow up to say my dad, my dad loved us. He loved us a lot. And in a weird way, the more I've gotten there and anchored in, the freer I've become to go forward.

Now I don't feel bad about leaving for a week because my kids know, right? Or two weeks or whatever we're doing. But have you found that most people think they want a thing, but really they're trying to duct tape and wallpaper over some other challenges?

Yes and no. So, yes, I think people confuse the external things, which are awesome and really do have a thing. And the reason that people will forever want their version of being the guitarist in Metallica is it has utility and there really is a massive upside. It's awesome.

But what they fail to understand is that ultimately the only thing that matters is your neurochemical state. So I don't know how many billionaires have to commit suicide before people go, oh, money's not the answer. There's something else going on. And I'll shorthand it to, you have to earn your own respect. If you have your own respect, people can attack you and you'll still be like, okay.

Okay, maybe there's some things in there I can really improve, whatever. But you're still going to be like, I have a value system. I live up to my value system, and that's why I respect myself. And so I'm here to update my value system for sure, but I said these were the things that I was going to do, and I have done them, and I really respect myself for that. Nobody does that. Nobody respects himself. I won't say nobody, but I think that— It's very rare culturally. People don't think about it. Yeah. And so the reality is that we are both the shout and the echo. Right.

And what I mean by that is you are the things you do, the shout and the echo, what people say about the things that you do. We are a social creature and there is no way to detach yourself from that. You will actually break psychologically. This is why the ultimate form of punishment is isolation. Right. Okay. So you just, you have to understand I'm nested

in a brain, first of all, that is designed for social interaction. And so there's no way to remove myself from I do a thing and people respond. So you're gonna have to deal with both of those. But ultimately, in the combination of those two things, you will either have or not have respect for yourself. The problem is people over-index on the echo. I did a thing and a wave came back at me.

Now, the wave you don't want to try to overcome is your own sense of what you're doing. You need to have resilience against simply being a puppet of the echo. Sure. Because the echo isn't always in alignment with what's going to make you feel fulfilled. We may have to define that. That's a whole other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ultimate punchline of life is fulfillment. It is the only stable psychological state, meaning you cannot be happy and grieving at the same time. Right. But you can be fulfilled and grieving at the same time. That's right. Yeah.

Fulfillment has a recipe, for lack of a better word. You must work really hard. That's a part of it. To gain a set of skills that matter to you for whatever reason, that allow you to serve yourself and others in pursuit of an honorable goal. So if you do that, you will trigger all the right algorithms in your brain. And when you're by yourself, you will feel good about yourself. And that's like when you meet a...

third grade teacher who makes 41,000 bucks a year who drives an old Corolla and you can't get that smile off her face even when she's exhausted right she's fulfilled and then you've got the others that are chasing and chasing and chasing and they're right the billionaires who jump off a building it's that sense of no I've got this goal and I'm this is what I this is what I want to do and make peace with all of it I love that for sure I love that

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And yes, I still love my happy drops every day. And I've been trying out their Better Biome gummies to help my gut health and digestion improve, and I'm loving it. Go to Organifi.com slash Diloni right now to save 20% off at checkout with code Diloni. That's Organifi, O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Diloni, and use code Diloni for 20% off. What I know about me when I get anxious is I don't see the world right.

And the only hedge that I've found against my inability to experience the world as it truly is when I get set off is two things. One, restrict the number of times I get set off, whether that's dietary, whether that's sleep, whether that is saying yes to too many things, et cetera. Like there's an ecosystem I build for myself or I allow to be built around me that I know now is going to set this off. The other thing is a group of, for me, a group of men and women

that I outsource that to, who have a different pair of glasses that see the world. And I can call them and say, hey, dude, my wife said this, and I said this. And my buddy would be like, that's the stupidest thing you could have possibly said, right? And he's a banker in Texas, right? Has no day-to-day contact with me, but we know each other. I've got 30 years. Do you have a group of men and women that beyond the, hey, what's your advice? What's this? That are just

Tom's people that you can call and be like, I'm not doing all right. Or that, Hey, my wife said this and I don't know how to say this, but it hurt. Am I seeing this right? Not really. So I'm, I am very close with my family. Okay. Okay. Uh,

But the reality is that there is a weakness in my game that I am so obsessed with my wife and I do everything with my wife. My wife is my best friend. So I have one person. I have this incredibly fragile strategy because if something happens to her and look, we've been together, we've been married for 22 years to give people an idea. This is like, it's not like I met her when I was six years ago or something and this is wholly untested. But

I don't know that that's a wise strategy. I just know that it matches my personality. Okay. So,

I wondered if you would ask me that question because I know that you ask a lot of people that. And I don't have it. I would encourage people to build that into their life because it seems less fragile than the system that I have, which is you have one linchpin and if anything happens there, you're toast. Again, I'm very close to my family, so it's not like I'm isolated, but my wife, Lisa, is the only person that I reach out to when something goes wrong. Now, the great news is that...

we have established a form of communication where even if we're the problem, the friction is between us, that we can still go into that, be vulnerable and say like, hey, I'm worried I'm not handling this right. I think that this insecurity triggered this whole breakdown and I wanna talk through it. And we'll have to take like little breaks every now and then where it's like,

To be honest, I don't, but my wife does. She'll be like, I need to walk away right now. But it's never been more than a few hours where we needed that kind of separation. Oh, you're better than me. Sometimes it's a day or two for us. Fair, whatever it takes. I'm seeking advice from you. You kind of like sitting down with somebody who's had a near-death experience. Like, you did it.

Right? You had a passion project and you created a thing and then it exploded and then it cosmically exploded, right? They could see that the supernova from space and then someone wrote you the magic check that's supposed to solve everything. In, in, in like multiple standard deviations away, I was raised by a policeman and my wife was raised by school teachers. In the last few years, our lives have dramatically changed.

And something I did not expect was a constriction of social circle. It gets harder and harder to say hello because someone's like, hello, hey, and why I got you, right? And it turns into a thing. And it felt very transactional, very fast, even with older friends. And it wasn't a bad thing. It was them realizing, oh, I didn't realize you had this skill or this talent. Hey, well, I got you. My marriage is or like whatever's going on.

And it just gets easier to not pick up the phone. And it gets easier just to hang out with my wife. And suddenly you look up and it's been two, three years. And you're like, oh, dude, I don't have any friends. I got my 30-year-old friends that I can call, but we don't live by each other. And so is this how you've always just kind of been? Or is this a function of, no, the bigger the thing got...

I've always been this guy. Yeah, okay. Literally. I mean, that's almost scratching a lottery ticket running to Lisa and y'all building this tether together. If we hadn't worked so consciously at it, I would say it was a lottery ticket that she walked in the room. Okay, all right. Everything else after that, I've just been so aware of human relationships from the time I was very young because I was bad with women, like epically bad with women.

Same team, man. I started reading Cosmopolitan Magazine because it felt like I was going behind enemy lines. Bro, same. I used to hide. I used to hide it. Now think about how long your marriage has lasted. And I had an older sister. There's something to it. Those two things. Bro, same thing. Okay, all right. Same thing. And my mom gave me the greatest piece of relationship advice ever. This still makes me laugh that this was the dime drop. I was like, where's the dime drop?

Wait, what? From your mom. Yeah. My mom was like, almost as a throwaway comment, she goes, oh, for women to have an orgasm, they have to trust you. And I was like, what? Yeah, yeah. Hold up. Hold up. I just need a place. Yeah.

Like, what do you mean trust? Your mom gave you that? Yeah. It was so disconnected from my sexuality. You and your mom are way cooler than me. Mom, where were you on that one? Right? It was earth shattering. Okay. I realized, oh, women are like an alien species. And if I think of them as I think of myself, they are eternally confusing. Okay. Yeah.

If I grow to understand how women work, how they think, how they see the world, now all of a sudden, oh, cool, I can figure this out. But it took a lot of years. So anyway, I start reading Cosmo to get behind the lines. You have to start understanding that magazines are trying to sell magazines. Put garbage to you. That's right.

a lot, but it was just so different. It's a new language. It's like reading Italian. Exactly. Right, right, right. And so I became fluent in Italian. There you go. And finally realized what it took to be good with women. But like having gone on that journey certainly does open something up. But anyway, bringing it back to the initial point was,

I have always been somebody who collapses inside of himself. So my identity is that of the writer. I think of myself as a writer. That's not what the world knows me for, but I got into business so that I could build my own studio and control the art.

And my first identity is very much as a writer. And so when I am alone, I have a hyper vivid imagination. And because of that, I may be too entertained when I'm alone. And so I don't have the same sense of, oh, I'm bored that other people get that pushes them out of their comfort zone to go meet people. And dude, I'm actually really awkward at the beginning of an exchange. Right.

So when I first meet somebody... She's pointing at me. I'm so awkward, man. Dude, people expect, because I do an interview show, that like, oh, hey, opening a conversation is easy. I'm like, the beginning of this is the worst. I am so weird. I don't understand. Tom, I feel like I've met my long lost brother. And I've got a brother. Yes. So awkward. So awkward. Do you fight it or do you just accept it, make peace with it? Because I don't want to be, because I know what my awkward does to other people. Yeah, that's important to remember. I know my awkward makes other people...

Exponentially awkward, right? And I don't want to be. Yeah.

Yep. And yet. I hear it. I hear it. So I had, look, I know how to push my personality into a room. Okay. And so I've just had to remind myself, because I used to be really good at it. I was not awkward in my teenage years. Okay. Ironically. That was when I was so un-self-aware that, ah, like I was just me and a total goofball. But as I got older and became more self-aware and took myself more seriously, my success went way up. Yeah. But all,

All the sort of anxiety of how might I be perceived in this moment, like that just came crashing in. And so I've really had to find ways to get out of my head and just be in the moment and push my personality into the room. Is some of that – I wonder if some of that's nervous system, like your body trying to take care of you. You've entered – we were talking before we started. You entered into –

I mean, you could sit down and have conversations about the Gaza conflict. You could have conversations about in Ireland. You could have all the hard religious conversations, and it's not as bad as the dietary zealots, right? And you built this world. That's a fun statement. Right. Until you start touching on Israel-Gaza. I'm overstating it. Hey, I'll take people and talk about food any day. I'm overstating it, obviously, but...

I can't imagine how much shrapnel you've taken over the years. Don't read the comments. That really is lesson number one. So, yes, has there been shrapnel? Of course. But here's the thing. As a guy, but I'm thinking 10 years ago, as a guy who stumbled into this weird world where I didn't feel good and I was also on the road a lot. And, dude, if I could walk into a gas station and get something remotely expensive,

that I could read the back of the ingredients. Like, Quest was a gift, right? And to think that that becomes like an epicenter of contention,

Right. When you look around and it's like it's Twinkies or it's chimichangas that have been there seven days or this. How can anybody with any shred of self-worth go after that? Does that make sense? Like it's such a gift. And to think you were at the middle of it. And I just wrap my head around. I'm trying to make the world a better place.

And all I do 24/7, 365 is get beat up for it. On my limited scale, right? I just want people to have better marriages and have like love their kids. And the amount of grenades that you take, it makes you just wanna be like, I'm just gonna go home. Right? I get that. Like the impulse to just shut my door and just drive home and listen to old punk rock and call it, right?

Tell me about building a marriage worth fighting for. I'd say marriage is an act of rebellion in the 21st century. That's interesting. You're probably right. Life has nothing better to offer you than reciprocated love. So I became...

very accepting of that truth at a very early age. Now, admittedly, when I met my wife, I assumed I was never going to get married.

And when I met her, I was like, oh, actually, I'm either never getting married or I'm marrying her. So I was like, okay, got it. And for me, proposing was a big deal. But once I proposed, I was like, I'm already committed. So there was no difference really between where I was post-proposal and getting married. So once you proposed. That was it. I was like, don't ask if that's not what you actually want. Yeah, I really debated that.

We'll push you over the edge because it's not an algorithm that makes sense on paper. It's interesting. That doesn't feel true to me. Tell me about that.

Well, it's interesting. So my brain is cycling through. The internet is going to agree with your statement. Okay. And I will first acknowledge the internet. Okay. That... Is this amorphous? Yeah. Well, things have changed. Right. And so that is a very fair criticism of when I found my wife and now. Okay. Okay.

Now, having said that, if I, God forbid, found myself single all of a sudden, it would not be difficult for a man with my skills to find somebody else. Correct. Now, look, the money, people are going to think like that's the win. No, that will get a lot of crazy people in the door. Correct. And so now I'm going to have to filter a lot more people. But over the last 20 plus years at this point, I've...

run a lot of experiments on this person interviewed for a job and I hired or didn't hire and how did that play out? Okay. So I'm pretty good. Nobody's perfect. All right. I'm very clear about that. But I'm pretty good at knowing who to bring in and who not to bring in. Okay. And then if you're in a relationship with somebody, it becomes very easy, very fast to tell like who's sincere, who's really in this, who, by the way, can deal with their own insecurities and all that stuff. So

But going back to the initial question, it was very obvious to me that I was getting an emotional response out of being with somebody that I had never gotten anywhere else in my life. And another banger from my mom, she said, you'll know you're in love.

You'll know you're in love when you think there's no way two people in history have ever felt the way that my wife and I feel or my girlfriend and I at the time. And that ended up being super true. I was like, there's no way. The world would just stop. I'm a drug addict. I just want to be around her. But I'd read enough to understand that that phase was going to wear off. And so even in the height of sort of that cocaine part of the relationship,

we were both like this phase, we should enjoy it, but it is going to morph into something else and we need to be ready for that. And we need to understand how to surf that. And so we've been very, very thoughtful at understanding that you move through phases in life. So just sharing your life with somebody is a tremendous joy. Yeah.

I understood that at a deep evolutionary level and so wanted to invest in that. I understand communication very well. I actually have a slightly feminine temperament. So I find communication easy. I find admitting insecurities easy. And so getting into it and really navigating those waters was interesting. And so the thing I had to learn was to be tough.

and to be manly and to understand what that means. And so certainly my journey as an entrepreneur has been that. And that has had a massive positive impact on my marriage.

And I'm going back to the statement about reading Cosmo because I had an older sister and I paid close attention to the people she dated. And who lit her up? When she'd come home just overjoyed, like, what did y'all do? Right? I was four years younger. And then she'd come home sobbing. And she would occasionally leak out, like, don't ever say this. And I just put a GPS pin in that one because I remember, right? But I also remember the other side, which is...

I don't like my dad was a Texas homicide detective and I played Texas high school football. Like,

But I remember dudes banging their heads on the locker and I was like, what are we doing? We're playing a game. And I love it. It's fun. But I remember reading Men's Health for the opposite. Like, what are we doing? Like, what's this almost not enemy lines, but this is the team I'm on. What am I missing here? So it was that learning. What does that even feel like? And I'm so new into entrepreneurship. When I go back, when I say it's an act of rebellion or that it doesn't make sense.

The algorithm that I run is the only way this works is if you truly know me. And if you truly know me, then you can hurt me. And that is something that I've tried to shield myself against forever. Can I throw an idea out? I'm very curious to see it. So you are going to run into that. Yes.

The way that it happened to me was I was in a very loose relationship with somebody and they were overzealous from where I was sitting. And so in the end, I pulled back and they went from like overzealous. I'd do anything for you to, oh, now I'm going to try to hurt you. Yes. And I was like, interesting. Interesting.

And so immediately I approach life as an engineer. So I'm not freaking out about life shouldn't be this way. I'm like, okay, there is at least, maybe it's a small percentage, but there is some percentage of women that will now use my vulnerabilities against me. And so I don't like this. I don't like the way this feels. So one, my response to that was,

This person just flipped A to B like that. So when somebody's hurling abuse at me, one, they're gonna pick something real, by the way. They're gonna pick something they know will actually hurt me. So that's really interesting information to know. And two, I can't let it hurt me because nine seconds before I broke up with her, she would have done anything. Got it.

So she was able to hold the things in my head that she knew I didn't like about myself and maybe she also hated them, but it was so overwhelmed by the things that she did like. I'm like, okay, cool. Just in totality, I need to be worth it. So there are gonna be things about me that are negatives. There are gonna be things about me that are positives.

And depending on that person's relationship with themselves and with me, they determine whether they're gonna try to beat me to death with this or not. So it's good to know about they're in a dark place when they're coming at me. They're also coming at me with something real. So if it's addressable, address it. And if it's not, well, then don't worry about it. And having that framework was really useful. And it also pushed me to say, there's a great quote, boys and girls pay attention to this one. It'll serve you coming and going.

You do not divorce the same person you marry. Correct. Now, that's what I was experiencing. We weren't married, but you don't break up with the same person you got together with. And so in that moment, I realized, oh,

oh, I want to be high integrity. So I'm going to treat somebody, even if they treat me badly, I'm going to say, I value being the same person, whether things are going well or they're going poorly. And so I have lived that out in romantic relationships, in business. And that is one of the key pillars of respecting myself is like, how do you react when,

Everything has gone to hell in a handbasket. The other person is actively trying to hurt you. Like, what do you do? Obviously, I don't let people slap me around. So we're going to draw boundaries. I'm not a punching bag. If the only way I can survive that encounter is to throw a punch back, I will throw a punch. But I'm going to be myself through this whole thing.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month is all about gratitude, and most of us have a person or two that we'd like to shout out for helping us along the way. I'd like to take a moment to thank two people who have transformed my life, the great Marilyn Fannin and the powerful and amazing Dr. Jean-Noel Thompson. Marilyn gave me a chance when no one should have, and she brought me along and taught me poise and professionalism, and she challenged me.

And Jean-Noel taught me how to be a dad, a husband, a professional, and how to balance the seemingly impossible weight of caring for a whole bunch of people all at the same time. Thank you to Marilyn and Jean-Noel. And for you listeners, I know you have people in your life that you're grateful for, and hopefully you stop and thank them every once in a while.

But there's one person that we often don't take time to think enough, ourselves. We don't always acknowledge that we're surviving, we're moving forward, and we're grinding our way towards a better life, better relationships, and a better world. And in a world where everything's gone bonkers, it's not always easy. So here's my reminder. Thank the people in your life and thank you. And sometimes we need more than just a thank you. We need some professional and personal help.

We need to talk to someone who's trained to help us discover our true gratitude and our true selves during the holiday season. That's why I recommend my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy, and you can talk with your therapist anytime, anywhere, so it's convenient for your schedule. You just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost.

This season, let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash D'Loni to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash D'Loni. If ever I post a list of this is what you have to do to be successful, I can guarantee people are going to come after me. Sure. And I'm just like, okay. It's fine. Feel free to ignore it if you would like. I'm going to keep using it, but...

Because it's all about the things you have to do, things you have to give up and all that. And people are like, where's the fun, bro? And all that. And I'm like, that's just a different list. If you want a list on fulfillment, bro, I'll do a list on fulfillment. But the reality is that success has a set of physics and you can fight against it. But it's like everybody understands if you want to be an NBA champion or a football champion,

Great, do you think that guy is goofing off on the off season? No, you don't. You know that the guy that really becomes a hall of famer, they're grinding, they're working hard, they're taking a thousand catches a day, whatever it is that their position requires. Like we all know that and we celebrate that in athletes. But the second I as a business guy am like, you have to do the same things just in a business context. People lose their minds. And it's like, I'm talking about greatness, kids. If you wanna be great,

Those are the physics. But that's not the bill of sale culture gives us. The bill of sale is you can do it all and you can have all of it right now. And it's not true. It's just not true. Meaning you can have – you can never miss a Little League game and you can have the perfect house and you can make meals every night for your family or eat – like there is no cost to greatness. And when you're around truly great people, you realize it costs everything. It costs everything.

And I think that's the tension that people feel, oh, I have to choose, or I've got to make some choice.

The center can't hold on all of this. And I don't think people have a psychology for it. Does that make sense? It comes at a cost. It does come at a cost. I think that people have mental models that cause them a lot of problems. And the thing I wanna be known for is there's something I call the physics of progress. Now, why is it the physics of progress? I really believe, and look, of course I will update if I get closer to the real answer.

but I really believe that it's a loop. It's effectively the scientific method repurpose for general life. And there is nothing below that. There's as far as I can tell, it's just ground truth. So you can think of it as thinking from first principles. So I know where I'm trying to get to.

what experiments do I have to run in order to actually make progress towards that thing? Now, once you understand that there are physics to progress, that you can progress towards anything, right? This is the only belief that matters again. Right, right.

Oh, I can put time and energy into being a better parent. I can actually become a better parent, word. I can put time and energy into building businesses and I can actually get good at that, word. Like whatever it is that you wanna do, you can get better at it. Now you may not ever be able to become the best, like 50% of us roughly is hardwired. And so you may have limitations that you're just not gonna overcome. Stephen Hawking for as brilliant as he was, was never going to dominate the NFL. Correct, that's right, that's right.

So it just is what it is. But there are avenues, many avenues that remained open to him, even though he had, I think it was ALS. So it's like-

You just have to find that path and then just really, really, really invest. But if that isn't your worldview, if you don't think that you can get better and you think this is just about, I've been dealt a hand and now I've got to bluff a lot to get through this game and someone's calling me out, then it's like, oh God, like I have to push back on that person. I have to go in on them. All I can do is blame the dealer. That's my whole life is blaming the dealer. Bluff, tap out, whatever. Versus, oh, I'd like some new cards. Is that time and energy-

Finite. Of course. Of course. All of us are going to- And that to me is the secret sauce is you got to choose. Yes. In this particular season. So a great quote, you can be anything you want, but not everything. That's right. And so you're going to have to pick. Now that haunts me more than just about anything haunts any human being. For the sunk cost. Like what are you going to lose? No, it is that- The lost cost opportunity. Some people don't have a passion. Yeah. The great news is I can teach you how to build one. Okay. Yeah.

Other people have a lot of passions. I'm that guy. Okay. So there are more things that I'm passionate about, let alone extremely interested in that I will ever have time to pursue. And by quirk of genetics, I really have a hard time not pursuing something I'm passionate about. Like a really hard time. Like it haunts you. Yeah, yeah. To the point of dysfunction. Okay. Hey, I'm well aware of it. So like when I'm teaching business,

i will tell people there's virtually nothing that i will tell you to do that i'm not actively doing myself okay there is one thing though and that is don't divide your energy okay pick one thing and be a sociopath just go deep deep deep deep deep deep deep into one thing and do it forever and i'm in the dave ramsey complex because he just picked a thing and he went insanely deep now

There is a cruel twist of fate. I can't do it, man. I can't do it. I could not spend the next 40 years talking about one thing that I care about. It's gotta be a multitude. There are just too many things to light me up. So anyway, terrible for business. Great for, I love it. My life is amazing. But you did that one thing and that gave you a foundation from which you could repel off of. Yes, but here's the thing. Because in that period, I was just broke, broke, broken.

broke. I didn't have a choice. So I didn't have the great facilitator of money. So the great irony is it's actually harder to be disciplined and build only one thing and have the kind of outsized success now because I have success. In fact, when you were talking about, you know, I was raised by a guy that was a cop in Texas and they were raised by school teachers. It's like,

Bro, that's probably better. That's the soil. Yes. Oh, yeah. If you want to give birth to a kid that's successful, you, because you're successful, have to worry about your kids in a way that your parents didn't because there was just a little bit of hardship in your life. It was a lot. And it's good. And here we go. That's right. Which is one of, if not, it may be the main reason I chose not to have kids is that I didn't know if I could watch them struggle. Yeah.

And I had so much money that I was like, it'd be way too easy to like, I would find myself fantasizing about, okay, could I pay three or four people that my kids don't know are on payroll and their only job is to make problems go away without the kid realizing that they're making problems go away. And I was like, oh God, like my kid is gonna be the kid that's like strung out on heroin by 12 because I'm just making all these problems go away because I am, I have such a hard time emotionally watching people struggle. Yeah.

Know thyself. I just wasn't sure. And so I was like, oh God, we're all gonna damage our kids in some way. Of course, yeah. But I just had real nightmares about damaging them in ways that are not good. I love an engineering approach to life. I love it because it creates some mental models and it really takes a lot of the...

We're all just on a leaf floating down the river. This passive life just happens, right? There was a buddy of mine. He went to me, looked at me. He's like, I reject the statement. It is what it is. That's not true. There is a lot that we can control. There has to be a moment when, or maybe it's a series or maybe it's the context. Like Lisa knows you. And she also knows where the knives are that could get through the armor. And she chooses to not. That to me is the magic. Yeah.

And that to me is the, is the, it has become culturally inappropriate. Don't get in a place where somebody could ever get you. And what I have found over time when my wife and I sat across the table, like, are we going to keep being married? Cause we can't, we're not doing this anymore. Are we done? Are we calling it? Or did we make a covenant? We're going to have to build something totally new. That's when that chest got opened up and it was like, here it all is. And we've been together 15 years when we did that, right here at all is.

Here's all the guns. Are you going to shoot me? Here's all the knives. Are you going to cut me? Or are we going to use those tools and build something amazing? How do you navigate that? Yeah. So I would say there is no point where you want to set down the engineering. Okay. But what you do want to do is understand your tools. Okay. So...

An engineer is somebody that goes within the realm of physics. So we know what gravity is. Right. We know tensile strength of a material. We know material science and what materials are coming on board and all that. We know...

all the manufacturing and the systems that are required to get product from where it was made to the build, all that, they're living within that reality. And so if you have an engineering mindset, you're not saying I'm going to exit humanity. Humanity is the point. The very thing that I want in my tombstone is you're having a biological experience. Mm-hmm.

All right, why do I want people to understand that? Whether your biology was given to you by God or evolution, I don't care. You have it. And now that you have your biology, how do you take it into account? And so love is a describable, shockingly repeatable neurochemical setup.

And so I'm like, okay, cool. So this is a game, ultimately a brain manipulation. When I'm with my wife, I wanna feel a certain way and I want her to feel a certain way. And so when I'm opening the kimono and I'm revealing all the insecurities and all that, it's like, I'm doing this because I believe it will put us in a situation where we can be good for each other, where we can get from the love, the unity that we have,

what we wanna get out of it, what will make it worth the compromises. So it's always an ROI. Yeah, I mean, when you use words like that, you're gonna turn people off. Sure, but it's intentionality. It's intentionality. 100%. This isn't an ephemeral plane where things are happening by magic.

This is a, human is designed to get safety, and yet there's tension between too much safety and eroticism. And desire, right? Right. So now you're in this weird place of like, okay, we have to figure out this really weird dance. But that is what it is. That's it. That's it. And so what Lisa and I do is, it's just full disclosure. So we are constantly talking in insecurities. That's one of our big roles. I'm not.

Talk to me in insecurities. So if you're getting emotionally triggered, the odds that you have touched on an insecurity border on 100%. So it's like, okay, cool. What am I insecure about that's making this moment weird? So I'll give you my favorite example from our marriage. Okay.

I had a belief that women were only attracted to men that were better than them at everything. Now I didn't realize I had that belief. It was just running in the back of my mind. And so my then girlfriend and I, who is now my wife, but we were playing a game of pool and I had an opportunity to win by getting the eight ball.

And thinking my wife will find me attractive if I beat her at pool and she will find me unattractive if I lose at pool.

And so she comes up and she whispers something really hot in my ear, right? To try to get me to miss and miss I did. And instead of being like, oh, we're doing that tonight, I got mad. Okay. Because I was like, she's not gonna be able to find me attractive if I lose this. Now that's all subconscious. I'm just mad.

Now at the time, I don't know why I'm mad. I'm just mad. So I'm like, why'd you make me miss that shot? That's cheating. That's BS. We end up like just completely derailing. The night is not fun at all. And at some point I'm like, huh, my neurochemistry is changing. That now all feels like a waste of time. What actually just happened and how do I avoid that happening in the future? And I had seen a movie called Daryl and it's,

I suddenly had this flash of the whole thing is Daryl's an android. He's being raised by human parents. And the mother is having a really hard time and Daryl can't understand why. And the dad has to come in and go, Daryl, you're perfect in every way, but your mom actually needs to be needed. And so if you weren't perfect-

"Oddly enough, your relationship would be better. I have the chills now." So remembering like, wait, why would anyone wanna be in a relationship with somebody that's better than them at everything? Now all of a sudden they're always gonna be in second place. That's super lame. And so I was like, okay, what if we figured out the things I'm better at, the things she's better at, and we start celebrating that. And so I was like, word, but I need to go confess that the reason I got mad was because I believe

that you won't find me attractive if I'm not better than you at those things. And she was like, what? She's like, that's not true. I find you attractive for all these reasons. I have nothing to do with this.

And I was like, okay, that doesn't feel real yet because I have had this belief for so long, but I'm gonna start acting as if that belief were real. And if that moves me in a better direction, then I will adopt it and it'll become a real belief. And of course it becomes a real belief. And I realize now you wanna find the things. One of you is gonna be better at some things. One of you is gonna be better at the others. Map those out, figure out what they are.

And then you can be good. But it started with the ability to say, I was insecure that you wouldn't be able to find me attractive if I lost. That's why I got mad. And then it was like, she could hold that space for me and extend the love or the assurance, whatever I needed in that moment. And we had...

We have a rule in our marriage. You never weaponize the other person's insecurities against them. Awesome. So there will be times where I know I can win this argument just by reminding her of this insecurity and it will shut things down just like that. But when people say there are things you say that you can never take back, what they mean is you just weaponize their insecurity against them. And now they're not going to want to be, they won't want to admit their insecurities to you in the future. That's right. The cabinet stays closed. And you, um,

Before we leave, you said something that has become a hot button for me. And where I think are, and there's multiple ways, but in our current, what I would call the mental health industrial complex, there's this idea that you think your way to emotional health or mental health, for lack of better terms. And you said something really important. I recognize this and I knew that I was feeling this way

But I began to act this way because the idea is mental health is not all the right thoughts in the right order. You have to go act. You have to go do. And there's a reciprocal. It works together, right? My actions become. And it's important to say, I love that. I feel this way. Okay. It's not working.

I'm going to go, the light on my dashboard is telling me my transmission's broken. It's not. The car's running great. I'm going to go this way. And ultimately, that's where you find that connection. I love that. That's amazing. That takes an extraordinary amount of self-awareness. Yes, which is a double-edged sword, but yes. It is. Last thing, you mentioned a couple of times already, just with the few things you've mentioned, your mom sounds like the coolest person ever. Oh, it's pretty dope. What is some advice you would give to moms?

on who are raising boys who are trying to figure the world out. Hmm.

okay so one boys are not little girls so they're going to come with the world very differently and if you're a mom they're going to seem like little maniacs to you and you're not going to understand you're going to think that something is wrong with them and the default assumption in the beginning because it really might be something wrong with them but the default assumption should just be that they have a different set of gears than i have or that my daughters have and so understanding that you're going to be in a much better position they are

probably going to be far more aggressive. They're going to like to break things. They are going to meet the world at a physical level. They are going to resolve things physically. And to understand that women come to the world with a,

We need cohesion. We need tribes. They get hierarchy through reputation damage. Boys don't. Boys get that through physicality. Who's faster, stronger, and better at leading. And so that different dynamic, I think, can really sketch women out hard. So they need to be thoughtful about that. And then

whether you're raising a boy or you're raising a girl, you need to get them into certain loops very, very quickly. And one of the loops is just how the world works. You set a goal.

Now you're gonna have to get good at that thing in order to get there. And to run that loop, you have got to get them to, this is Carol Dweck all day. You've got to get them to focus on a growth mindset, which is very simply the understanding that your talent and intelligence are not fixed traits. They can be improved. And so now it becomes a question of how do you get them to improve on the things that matter to them?

And so, hey, you're not good at that thing. Don't worry about it. You can spend time and energy getting good at that thing. And, um,

One, I wanna say you have to be super careful of bullying. I've heard you talk about this as well. Bullying scares the life out of me. And 'cause it will set neurological patterns up that will last for a lifetime. But at the same time, like you've gotta build resilience in that person. They have to be able to take knocks and keep going. Now, the thing that I wish somebody had told me when I was younger is very simply, it's supposed to hurt.

So like I said, my journey has been one of getting stronger because as a kid, if something hurt, I would whine and cry about it. And people would just be like, oh my God, you're gonna be okay. And I really wish they had said, oh man, you're gonna get hate comments for this, but this is really true to what I believe.

Within reason, because there are things where that person needs to be taken to a hospital or whatever. Sure, sure, sure. But I wish my parents had done a better job of recognizing when you get hit on the leg in the morning with a soccer ball because it's very cold, that's gonna hurt a lot. You're not damaged. Yes. You're just fine. Yes. And you need to get tougher. Mm-hmm.

Yes. And you need to value being tough. Yeah. And that as a man, I'm gonna sound so old right now. Again, these are things I believe. As a man, you need to have the full range of emotion. Don't hide your emotions and all that. But at the same time, we gotta be context specific. Yes. So for instance, if you are on the soccer field and that ball hits your leg and it's cold and it hurts,

I don't care. Keep going. You're going to suck it up. You're going to keep playing. Now, I got my thumb broken on the soccer field and they kept telling me, you're fine, you're fine. Because everything I cried about, whined about, and I would always get my way. And so there was...

No difference in how it would behave with a ball bouncing off my cold leg versus no for real this time actually broke my thumb Yeah and so getting the kit to understand the difference that there are gonna be things in life that hurt and by pushing through those you actually get to where you want to go that's right now that has to be in the context of love I get that yeah, and so when you're a single mom this is hard because that's really what the guy should be for

The kids should be able to retreat back to mom when dad being tough and telling me to push forward and push through it is getting overwhelming. You want someone that you can retreat to, but if you're by yourself, you either have to get somebody in this kid's life, big brothering, coach, get them in jujitsu.

Something where they learn to control themselves, they learn to engage with the world in a physical manner, where they learn what pain is bad and what pain is good and should be pushed through. All of those things are incredibly important. And then you're gonna have to read the situation. Is your kid more prone to empathy or more prone to domination? Sure. If your kid is more prone to domination, you don't wanna say that's bad, but you wanna be like,

"Hey, if you wanna be a good leader, "you can't just dominate people. "They will look for ways to take you down in groups." So you wanna understand, if you really can dominate, now's the time where you pick people up and pull them towards you. Why? Because you'll get what you want out of life. This is leadership. So awesome, be the best, be better than everybody.

But Michael Jordan didn't start winning championships until he understood I also have to be a good leader. He won scoring titles, but he didn't win championships. And you, as a son of mine, are going to win championships. And to do that, you have to be a team player. And to do that, yeah, be better than everybody else. But you want to lift them up and help them get as good as humanly possible.

A, I 100% track with you and we don't talk about it. And you're right. We'll get me in comments that there's an importance to teaching our kids to be tougher. Where I have found, I had a buddy of mine who's a mental health professional. He's astonishing, but it's 20 years ago. He said, we're going to have hell to pay. I said, why? And he said, because we're removing every bully from every situation. We're not teaching kids how to

handle it and how to deal with it. And that we believe that they are strong enough with us walking alongside them to weather some of these things, but we're telling them implicitly is you'll never be strong enough. The world's got to clear. And he said, there will be a bully at some point that comes through that wipes out the competition. And then there's a whole generation of kid that has, that doesn't even believe I'm strong enough or that I have the toughness. What I found in my house is when kids start seeking comfort,

adult attention through whining and hurting, it's always because I'm not closing the loop somewhere else. If that's the only way they get me is when they go, "Oh, I'm hurt." That's a signal to me that I'm not communicating that I see you and I care about you and I love you and that you're safe in this house.

Now get back on the field, right? Go. Yes, you got bonked with a ball. Go, right? And I love that. Like we're teaching kids. It's all the same pain and it's not. It's not. And there is a difference between a broken thumb and a, and yeah, you got kicked in the shit and that hurt. That one hurt bad. Oh man. I think you can get back out there. I love that, man. Well, dude, thanks for your time. It was an honor, man. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. It was an honor. You're a gift. Appreciate you, brother. My pleasure.

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All right, that was my conversation with Tom Bilyeu. Check out all of his cool stuff in the show notes, his show, his linked impact theory, his courses, all of his stuff will be there. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you guys have a great, great week. Be kind. No matter what kind of chaos is going on right now, and I'm just assuming there'll be chaos. Maybe it'll just be insane amounts of peace. But whatever chaos is going on right now, you can always...

She's kind. Thank you so much. I love you guys. Stay in school and don't do drugs. Peace out.