The Preview - Man City vs Man Utd
47:51 Share

This episode is supported by Merrill. With a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan for your financial goals. And when plans change, Merrill's with you every step of the way. Go to ml.com slash bullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch Pierce Fenner & Smith Incorporated Registered Broker Dealer. Registered Investment Advisor. Member SIPC.

This episode is brought to you by Bleacher Report. How do you follow sports? From college football to the NBA, Bleacher Report brings you the latest news, live scores, and epic highlights from your favorite leagues, teams, and athletes all in one app. Dive into exclusive shows hosted by your favorite athletes and original Bleacher Report series with breaking news, rumors, and predictions all season long. Download Bleacher Report to personalize your coverage.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

The Athletic FC Podcast Network. Hello, I'm Michael Bailey. Welcome to the preview on The Athletic FC. Today, we'll be focusing on the Manchester derby before checking in with some of the club podcasts across our network.

With me today is our Manchester City writer Sam Lee, Manchester football writer Mark Critchley and tactics writer Tom Harris. Today is going to be a little bit different to the usual weekend preview with both teams not quite where they want to be this season. We thought we'd have a bit of fun. I'm going to call it that with a Manchester Derby round table. I'll tell you what, Sam, Man City have...

Won just one of the last 10 games, I'm sure you know. Most recent being the 2-0 defeat at Juventus in the Champions League on Wednesday. This is obviously going to be the broad opening question, but what is going wrong for them? Well, I'll try and be succinct because yesterday I had a journalist from La Parisienne in France saying, can you send me a voice note on what's going on?

And I started and I was like, first of all, I hope you can understand my, you know, how I speak. And second of all, sorry if it's three or four minutes. It was 11 and a half minutes. So basically he was like, it can't just be Rodri, can it? I was like, no, it isn't. Like obviously Rodri's a massive miss, but then De Bruyne has been out for like 10 weeks. Foden is out at the moment. He's been out at the start of the season. He's been struggling with, you know, different issues. So there's the creativity.

The defence has just been like a rotating sushi conveyor belt of injuries. And then the ones who are fit have to play and play and play. And they either get worse or get injured. Like Karl Walker struggling horrifically. Akanji and Ake have been out and back in and back out again. But I think just without Rodri, they're just physically lacking in midfield. Not too fast.

not too strong. So then that creates opportunities for more counterattacks. And then, you know, Kovacic, who's not the perfect replacement for Rodri, but he's out as well. So then the midfield's even weaker. Gundogan plays all the time. He doesn't seem to have the legs for it. Bernardo's playing all the time, not playing well. Rico Lewis is playing all the time, not playing well. And again, he's not too strong.

He can get pushed off the ball quite easily. We've seen that quite a bit. And then that leaves the defence exposed and the defence, there's hardly anybody fit. And also there's a little side helping of the wingers don't score goals and Haaland has been playing a lot and he's a bit rusty as well. So they concede goals very easily and they don't score many. It's a bit of a lethal combination. Tom, does that tie in with what you've seen tactically from them this season? Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

like to roll their eyes at the kind of Rodri excuse I think but I think kind of the higher you go up in the Premier League you know with teams like Arsenal and City like when you lose a player like Rodri like Martin Odegaard like Arsenal did earlier in the season it does have an impact because your ceiling drops you know you're not you're not

you're being dragged into these games you know in the Premier League where variants can take control where in the past where City can just kind of click into a higher gear and kind of sail through these games and now having to really fight for them and I think that's where you know things like mistakes creep in I think City have already committed more errors to leading to shots this season than they have in four of the last five seasons which is amazing because they're only halfway through

Yeah, it's a massive kind of domino effect and I think with Rodri, like you say, he's so good at keeping the ball, retaining it, so therefore not giving the ball away midfield and

his counter-attacks. He's also very good when City are able to be broken, you know, he's good at being in the right place. He's very physically dominant, he wins his aerial duels a lot more than Gundogan and Bernardo Silva and Rico Lewis do in the middle. You know, he knows how to make those smart fouls as well and just snuff these attacks out before they happen. And, you know, with City at the moment, they're playing such a high line as well, so that's really easily exploited when they don't win those midfield battles.

Yeah, there's just a lot of things going wrong at the same time. And I think the injury point is a big one because, you know, City looked quite good against Nottingham Forest a couple of weeks ago when Grealish came into the middle, Josco Guardiola coming into the middle as well. And then at Palace the following weekend, everything was reset because Grealish had to be rested again.

Guardiola had to come back and centre back because we didn't have four defenders. You know, it's things that like even when Pep wants to try and be experimental, he can't really do it to the full extent that he normally does because there is just this kind of, yeah,

as Sam put very eloquently, this sushi board of injuries. Mark, let's flick it over to Manchester United. They just about got past Victoria Pilsen last night, winning 2-1, thanks to Rasmus Heuland's brace. Is that a step in the right direction for them? I think it's a baby step in the right direction, let's put it like that, right? Now look, if it hadn't been for that very late Heuland winner, I think the reaction to that game and that performance would have been

quite different really and look yeah maybe that's a little bit unfair maybe it's a little bit results based but the first hour was pretty terrible in fact the first half was turgid to be honest and was being rated as probably one of the worst performances of the season never mind just under Amorim

So I think what you saw last night was that once he made changes, once he brought on Hoylund, once he brought on Mason Mount, who I thought made an impact, once he brought on even Anthony, you know, he was getting the tune out of Anthony for that last half hour there. You had that sort of proactive approach from the touchline that, to be honest, a lot of the time wasn't really there under Eric Ten Hag and that sort of

The difference really is what United have bought into from Amrim and you've seen that side of his management approach in his short spell so far that he's been able to make these in-game tweaks that have often improved United's performances. And so I thought after the defeats against Arsenal and Forest it was really important not to go on a streak of three games without a win and to put a team who I think they were 10 points off the top of the check first league. So when you're up against those sort of opponents especially as

a club like United you need to be seen to be winning these games even if we all accept that they're in a very transitional moment so an important win means that they're probably not going to have to go through the ignominy of failing to qualify from this Europa League group stage phase but we may still be seeing whether they get automatic but yeah a baby step in the right direction is how I would put it

And I guess, Tom, are you sort of starting to see the things he's trying to implement on the pitch with this team? Yeah, I think so. I mean, obviously his sporting Lisbon team, you know, he's with them for three, four, five years and he was able to get that consistency. He was able to recruit properly for the positions that he wants to play. I think there are a few square pegs and round holes at the moment. I think the wingbacks is a big one. I think you see wingbacks on their opposite foot, on the opposite flank. And I think that kind of...

makes it a little bit harder for them to build up quickly and to get into those attacking areas but I think the main thing is that they have kind of you know towards the end especially under 10 Haag there was a lot of space in the midfield they were easy to play through they were you know getting hit on the break a lot and I think this new shape under Amarim that the back five does help to solidify that a little bit I like it when Mason Mount plays in a front three I think he presses really well from the front so I think

So yeah, I think there's just things to be built upon. But I think, yeah, as Amarim himself has said, he needs time. He needs time to work out the players and he needs time to probably recruit players to play his system, I think. Sam, has anyone recently asked you for positives about the situation at Man City recently? If I was to ask you to give us some, is there anything going right at the moment for them? Yeah, they haven't given up. They keep going back to the well. They keep...

They keep doing what they're supposed to do. And the other thing about these problems are, you know, when they lost the four games in a row leading up to the November international break, it was like, okay, that was a bit weird. Come back after the international break, get the players back. It should be better. Obviously, the players who they were expecting to get back, like Stones, Ake, Akanti, they've gone out again. Kovacic, who they didn't know would be injured at all. But then it starts to spiral a bit. The Spurs pick them off 4-0.

The final was the worst one because to be 3-0 up with 10, 15 minutes to go and then draw 3-0.

That was the biggest blow. That was when you start to look around and think, what is going on? And then they go to Liverpool, play well in part, basically just in the sense that they were surviving, they were showing a bit of character. And then, like Tom mentioned, that Forest game, feels like a long time ago, it was last Wednesday. They started so well, I don't just mean the goal, but they turned up, they were pressing, there was the energy there. And you just think, Guardiola keeps telling them, this is what we need to do, this is how you need to run, this is how you need to fight. And they keep doing it. It's

It's not enough. And I'm not saying it's enough. And they know it's not enough. But like the first half against Sporting Lisbon, they were really good. First half against Brighton, they were really good. 10 minutes against Spurs, you know. But at least they're starting games with that intention. They're doing what they have to do, but it's just not enough because they're so weak. It's not a situation where like Guardiola's lost the dressing room. They're all in it together, trying to get out of it. You'd almost say it's the bare minimum. But to be fair, it would be quite easy after these 10 games just to kind of...

lose hope but I don't think we have so that leads me to think that what have your interactions with Pep Guardiola been like over the course of this season and has that changed people are saying stuff about Guardiola as if it's new and it's as a result of you know sitting not playing well and he's he's showing the strain and stuff but it's like well people have always thought he was weird in terms of what he says and does so if he's doing that now

Is that because he's losing or is it just because that's kind of how he is and some of the stuff he says? I don't know. I feel like he's obviously realistic about the situation. The thing he keeps saying is like when you win and one of the secrets to their success, although there's probably about 100,

well people have another number actually knowing what the comments are like on all my articles it's close to 100 yeah you round it up one of the secrets to the success is that Guardiola has always said if you're high if you're winning don't get too high don't get too carried away like you've got to kind of stay on this even keel and obviously now it's harder for the players because whatever they try isn't working but he's got the same approach you go in every day

You try and find the solutions in the same way. You know, I said earlier, he hasn't really changed too much. He'd always be stressed about matches, even when City are winning, like, you know, they won 24 games in a row once, but it's still be stressed about the next opponent, how to beat them. So he's kind of got that same approach. One of the things we know about him from like 10 years ago, from that Marty Perron book when he was a biomedic, he doesn't eat on match days because he's too nervous.

Like we know that he kind of, you know, can get down on his haunches when he's stressed during a counterattack. He can scratch his head. So was he scratching his head during that fire Nord collapse? Of course he was like, because this is what he's always like. So the results are obviously bringing that out of him slightly, but I don't think he's like changed in any way. And,

The reason he signed the contract on the back of those four defeats, he was like, well, I feel like I need to stay and get the team back to the top. Tom, do you see Pep trying to work through solutions in getting around these issues that he's got at Manchester City? Is it making sense to you or is it looking quite difficult to predict and seeing that things aren't working that he's trying?

Yeah, I think he's working with what he's got. To Sam's point, I think that Palace game was, you know, it was an enforced change back to a system that wasn't working and he just had to kind of hope that the attacking players dug them out a bit and they nearly did. That Haaland goal, to be honest, came out of nowhere and I think City could have gone and won the game if it wasn't for another defensive lapse at the other end. I'd broadly agree with Sam in saying that it's...

Yeah, I think Pep has realised what he can and can't control, you know, and things that he can't control, like the mistakes, like the injuries, like, you know, the press conferences. He's got to answer these questions, you know, four, five, six times a week. Yeah, you just got to keep going and got to keep working at it. And, you know, the quality of the players in there. I think there were a few good spells in that Juventus game. I thought the first half, I thought was quite good.

dull to be honest but I thought that was good from a City perspective because they controlled the game really well and they did have that chance for Erling Haaland they probably could have could have gone one up and it might have been a different game but you've just got to keep going and you know like you say this this game on the weekend it really depends who's fit because if Manu Ikanji is out if John Stones is still out we know Nathan Ake is still out then it probably will just have to be the same kind of system that we've seen in the last couple of weeks.

Just one thing, just briefly and a bit broadly on City and Pep. I think that if you were going to, it's an obvious point to make and people make it a lot, but if you were going to have one manager who was going to figure out a way of getting out of this situation, then it absolutely would be him, right? We always say this, that whatever issues crop up during a season for City, they usually...

fall away to the sidelines eventually because Pep comes up with some method or some way of addressing a problem tactically. I think what's striking and what's interesting is that, and I don't know if Sam would agree, but I think there's been a lot of focus on City ever since basically the Bournemouth game and that run of defeats. But I think there was certainly signs that performances and results like this were going to come at some point along the line, even before that, a couple of months before that, perhaps even...

perhaps even while Roddy was still in the team to an extent, although he missed the start of the season as well.

It's interesting that Pep hasn't yet come across that formula, come across that method because we always expect that he eventually will. And I think that is the one reason why the expectations for this season have just got to be tempered a little bit. I don't think when City were in this losing run, nobody thought that this was just going to continue. They're obviously going to improve. Players are going to come back. Even if Rodri doesn't, things will get better. It's just, is it going to be the City of the standard that we expect and that we've contemplated

come to expect over the last few seasons probably not right i think the reason they haven't found that solution or you know because it's like the kind of father-in-law chat isn't it oh what's going on with city kind of thing like oh you'd think they'll be fine by now it's like well do you really want me to do the 11 minute voice net thing or do you want me to just go you know rodgers injured and shrug my shoulders but like the solutions are the problems like what what does guardiola like to do when he's got like a doubt with the team or how does he want to like

control a match like you know Anfield away for example or anywhere with like a big crowd like Copenhagen last season loads of passes more passes than ever more people in the middle to kind of you know last year when Rodri was injured and I mean like last season when they went to Arsenal to put Kovacic Lewis Stones everyone in the middle just gum up the game

So they put bodies in the middle. They want more passes. So who are the bodies going in the middle? Okay, well, move up. Rodiel or Walker. And then who are the guys giving the passes? Gundogan. Well, Gundogan started the last six games. And he's patiently knackered.

They're losing the ball. And then Kyle Walker hasn't got the pace to get back now or Guardiola's too high. So those solutions are only causing more problems because the Guardiola playbook almost doesn't apply at the moment. We know Guardiola's not stupid because we always call him a genius. He knows exactly what his team's limitations are. And I think that's why after the game at Anfield, he was like, you might call me delusional, but I saw something here that we can build from.

been there unfortunately in the Forest game the next game when they look pretty decent Akanji and Ake got injured again and then it all gets reset the solutions are the problems and that's why it's a bit of a never ending circle as well as that rotating cast of injuries.

This episode is brought to you by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app, you can talk live and have a real-time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things, like if you want to practice for an upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live.

This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check the date of the big game first,

before you accidentally buy tickets on your 20th wedding anniversary and have to spend the next 20 years of your marriage making up for it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary. Terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Northbrook, Illinois.

Looking for a pickup truck to get just about anything done? Look no further. The Chevy Silverado EV isn't just the most powerful Silverado ever, with next-level towing capability and technology. It also offers game-changing versatility with the available Multiflex mid-gate and tailgate, which means Silverado EV helps you carry large, bulky, and oddly-shaped items up to nearly 11 feet in length. Chevrolet. Together, let's drive. Visit Chevrolet.com to learn more.

We confiled Pep Guardiola under the gnarly, been round the block a few times in English football category now, of course, Mark. But, I mean, Ruben Amorim, he's the fresh-faced newbie on the block. And how do you feel he's handled this?

the job he's had at the start here at United because to be honest every time things seem to cut to him in the dugout he looks pretty angry and frustrated fresh face family look alike isn't it yeah very fresh at the minute if you're watching this video you won't think so I'll let YouTube decide about that one but no I think that you can see why United's kind of key decision makers were so taken by him I think he's shown himself to be charismatic I think he's shown himself to be

A clear communicator, somebody who's able to convey key messages to players. I think that was one thing that was often levelled at Eric Ten Hagstall, that he didn't quite build that relationship with the squad. He just has a certain aura about him, to be totally honest, being in a room with him. It's a tough one for journalists because you'll ask him a question, he'll smile and give you...

a detailed enough answer or certainly a long enough answer and then you look back and you're like well he hasn't actually given away much there at all but I've kind of enjoyed the experience because he smiled and listened to my question so he definitely knows how to play that side of the club I think he has been a little bit taken aback by the scale of the job if you like you know there was those comments he was kind of making and

after his first game at Ipswich about just how much media he was having to do and I think it's dawned on him that this job is really not just about coaching the players. In fact, that's almost just one of the, it's a long way down the list really. Yes, you have to do that but you have to be a figurehead, you have to be a spokesperson, you have to address all the many various things that go on at Manchester United and on a weekly basis you have to be front and centre of all of that and I think that's perhaps perhaps

taking him aback a little bit. But what I think I've been really impressed with him is that he has come into the job and been very realistic about what it's going to entail and just how long things are going to take to improve, basically. You know, even after...

the wins that he's had, the Bodo Glimt win, the Everton win, you know, those were his second and third games. It's very easy for fans and media and the whole sort of ecosystem around United to get swept up in a new manager winning games. He's come in and he said, well, you know, the performance wasn't all there. I want to see improvements. We've only got through on decisive moments. And he's been that kind of, that sober analysis has been there all the way through.

And I think that's really important. Rather than talking up players, rather than talking up the team, rather than saying, yeah, everything's going great and we're adapting to the methods quickly. He knows just how long, how much of a gear shift this is going to be for the players, for the squad,

he's tried to feed that in and drop that in and I think that's going to be critical because you know this is now a bit of a as a season it's a bit of a write-off really not totally you know qualifying for the Champions League maybe perhaps through winning the Europa League would be a huge achievement right and something to aim for but the way that it's gone about the decision to stick with Ten Hag at the end of last season is

the delay in the end of making a change and everything that's just gone on this past week with Dan Ashworth as well it really has impacted on the season itself and means that

everybody just needs to take a step back take a deep breath and you know let United almost adapt that's very difficult at a club of this size and with this kind of scrutiny on it but he's been keen to get that message across and I think it's an important message that you know the club and even we as journalists probably need to move forward with for the rest of the season An interesting subplot I suppose here Tom in that

Amarim's sporting side beat Man City for one in the Champions League earlier this season. United fans will hope that that means that he knows exactly what the blueprint is for the derby, but he's not going to work like that, is it? No, I think it gives us some clues as to how the two teams will set up. I don't think it gives us any clues as to how the game will go. I think when you watch that

sporting City games that you started really well again as Sam mentioned they are starting quite well in some of these games and I think what we're going to see is that you know Amarim's defensive system with the five across the back the two kind of holding midfielders and then the three pushing from the front matches up against how City look to build up with you know three defenders two midfielders and then five across the front so it does kind of become a

a game of individual battles and for City I think who will be controlling most of the ball it will be how can you move around this set up how can you kind of create those advantages you know are you looking for Kevin De Bruyne to drift out wide and are you looking for Bernardo Silva to drop deep are you looking you know just how can they disrupt that stable state and then for United it's about winning in duels and counter-attacking which is obviously the blueprint at the moment as to how to beat this City team I think for

Ugarte in the middle will be a big one I think because if City do go into this game with you know obviously Rico Lewis is suspended but if there is Bernardo Silva if there is Ilkay Gundogan in the middle and Ugarte can snap a bat in the middle win the ball give it to Bruno Fernandes who's really good at kind of being vertical being direct getting the ball over the top to someone like Hoyland who is

can play that kind of disruptive Yocarez role, if you like, and just running behind. I think that'll probably be the United game plan. But yeah, it's, you know, that again, like we said before, that sporting team has a lot of experience under Amarim. They knew exactly what they were doing. This United team is still kind of feeling their way into this new system. I think it will depend on those individual battles and if the players can turn up and perform those roles as well as Amarim wants them to. I just remember after the sporting game, Amarim said,

you know we're able to play counter attacking football here but when I go to Manchester United my United are going to need to have more of the ball and I think that's entirely sensible and over the course of his time at United he is going to need to do that well maybe they can but I don't think they can keep playing on the counter attack I think they're going to need to modernise at some point

But as far as Sunday goes, you do you, mate. If that works, that works for you. It's worked for United so many times over the last few years. Even when City have been really strong. I mentioned that 24-match winning run. Came to an end against United out of nowhere. FA Cup final this year.

If you know how to play on the capital attack, your players do, stick with that. I think that'll be entirely sensible for all the reasons we kind of mentioned earlier on. And City just need to keep going through the motions and hope that, you know, Haaland takes a chance early on. I don't know, they're going to have to hope that United fade away because as we saw with that Firenord game and the Brighton game, the Sporting game, they will keep having chances. So it's going to be really fascinating.

Hey, it's Austin James. Yes, I'm living with diabetes, but it doesn't have to define me. Thanks to the Freestyle Libre 3 Plus Sensor, I get real-time glucose readings throughout the day. The Freestyle Libre 3 Plus Sensor is small and easy to wear, giving me the freedom to focus on my life as a parent and a musician. Now this is progress. You can get a free sensor at FreestyleLibre.us. Offer available for people who qualify. Visit MyFreestyle.us to see all terms and conditions. Certain exclusions apply. Data on file, avid diabetes care, or prescription only. Safety info found at FreestyleLibre.us.

Let's carry on our roundtable discussion with this one. What would be a good season from here for these clubs? I mean, Mark, you've kind of basically said that Man United can bin off this season already, which I can imagine all supporters agreeing with you immediately.

I think honestly honestly I do think that expectations have to be tempered which is incredibly difficult I don't want to repeat myself but like if yeah if they could get fifth maybe and if fifth was enough for Champions League or if they could have a serious run in the Europa League I think people would look back on that and think look that's a success from you know tangible material kind of trophy cabinet sort of success right.

But actually, is that how United want to judge success at the minute? Because we've just had two years of that, right? We've just had a manager who pretty much everybody knew in the wider context of things was underachieving and wasn't getting a tune out of the squad and wasn't, you know, building a sustainable team that would achieve success in the future. We've had him coming into press conferences every week and saying, look, I've won two trophies and only Pep's won more over the last few years. And people could see through that.

the flaws in that argument and I think Ten Hag had to make it a lot of the time and it was his strongest card that he had to play in some respects to defend himself against the scrutiny against the criticism he was getting but I think people understand now that that probably isn't the way to solely judge progress as a football club of United's level or any kind of top six Premier League team right?

So I think those just expectations just need to be reset a little bit. And whether they get Champions League or not, whether they win the Europa League or not, if at the end of the season you can see that this is Ruben Amarin's team and that they're moving towards, you know, his style, his system and his adapting to his way of playing and his principles, then I think that is just as much of a success as probably any trophy. I kind of want to say that. I don't know. That sounds about right to me, though. It sounds about right. And for City, I mean, look, I think...

That is, again, it's a question of where do your expectations lie after this? Because as I kind of referenced before, I think in the depths of this run, we all knew that they were going to improve. But are they going to improve enough to win the title? And that's been the standard. That has been what they've done for five out of the last six seasons or whatever, right? So are they going to be good enough to do that? Looking at this team at the minute without Rodri, and I know it's not as simple as Rodri, but I do think that is almost...

the straw that breaks the camel's back or the little domino effect that sets everything else off if he's not going to come back before the end of the season as we don't really expect him to at least in any good time at least before the end of the season then I think

It is about just consolidating. It's about top four. It's about making sure that you're in a position come the summer to do the rebuild that just about everybody accepts is necessary. And so for that perspective, I think from here on out, if City achieve that, then you'd look back and you say, box that one off and we go again next year. Yeah, I would like to ask you the same question, Sam, about City and what is a good season from here. But I mean, just to build off what Marcus said as well, I mean, I looked at Man City in the summer and saw Julian Alvarez leaving last

And a bit of work in the summer, but not a lot. And I guess I kind of thought that maybe they looked a little bit weaker than they were the previous season. I don't know if that was a misconception on my part, but whether the summer had any sort of bearing in how this season has played out. I think they thought going into the season, I don't know if you'd say they took a gamble, but I think they decided, okay, we're not going to do the major business this summer, we'll do it next summer.

As long as we don't get loads of injuries, we'll be all right. But obviously they didn't expect to get Gundogan back. But when they did, they were like, okay, well, don't need a striker then because he can play false nine or Foden can play false nine and Gundogan can fill in in midfield or whatever. We've got all these options with Gundogan that we can do. And then he just has to play holding midfielder again and again and again. It's like some kind of damn to eternity thing. Like just play a role you can't do anymore because you have your legs...

repeatedly while everything crumbles around you kind of scenario. So yeah, it hasn't panned out how anybody expected. They maybe thought, look, Pep always finds solutions. And you know, Pep didn't want them to sign Kyogo, the striker that they'd lined up from Celtic because he was like, well, we don't need too many bodies because, you know, he always likes to have a small squad. In terms of how things look from now, I mean, at the moment, you know, it feels like it's going to be like a Chelsea season or the last couple of seasons when they're just like 10th or 12th or something. But they're still 4th.

But not so much that, because right now, do I see them beating United and Villa? I'd say definitely not. I don't know what's going to happen on Sunday. I'd be very pessimistic about next weekend at Villa. But you don't have to be particularly good to get fourth place, historically. There's always this race for fourth place in March, April, May, and teams are dropping points all over the place. If City can kind of get into a position, even by February, where they...

they've stabilised, you know, possibly buy some players in January and the noise is coming out of cities that they're definitely ready to buy some players. I think they'll be fine, you know, top four and then go again next season.

Tom, this is a bit rock and hard place, but which team do you think is on the best trajectory going into this derby? That's a tricky question. I mean, I think I would say City just because of the continuity that they've had over the last nine years now under Guardiola. They can click into gear. We've not seen that Amarim's United can do that just yet, but there are problems here.

And, you know, the kind of good stuff that City can do is often at the moment undermined by the, you know, the very, you know, the defensive foundations, which, you know, United will look to attack on the weekend. So, yeah,

Yeah, I'd say City just for the history of the kind of the recent history of the two teams. But yeah, I think this derby on the weekend is really interesting. I come from a family of Man City fans. I've been speaking to them. My uncle's been going for 34 years and he said, you know, he's actually kind of enjoying it weirdly at the moment. It's a bit different. You know, you don't know what you're going to get. You know, obviously City have been so dominant over the last 10 years and it's just been...

an amazing kind of rollercoaster but you know there is that bit of jeopardy now obviously that he doesn't want to lose United on the weekend but

you know there is this kind of feeling that it could go either way and it's it's something different the idea of reliving 1990s Manchester City yeah I'm all over that Sam and Mark come to you too I mean what does this game mean do you feel for these two clubs where we are I mean you look at the the recent games obviously Man City have had the better of it in the Premier League obviously United won the FA Cup final they both met in the Charity Shield there's been a lot going on recently so Mark do you want to go first I mean what what what is this game give it give us a quick brief in terms of what it's going to mean to the city

To the city, to the city of Manchester. Well, everyone. It's an all-encompassing question. To the world. Give me the passion. I don't want to tap my chest while you're talking. Do you know what? I think it feels... This isn't going to get you tapping your chest. I think it feels less important to an extent in the grander scheme of things than it has done for the past few years. I mean, just for the fact that normally this game would be happening at a point where City at least did some sort of title race, right? And so there was some kind of import on it there. Yeah.

You'd be going into games where if City weren't in the title race, then the United manager was usually fighting for his job. And so there'd be that element of jeopardy on the other side as well. And I get the feeling like, okay, so it's only December, but I sort of feel like neither of those things sort of apply at the moment, right? So in that respect, it means a little less from the ground of picture. But I think...

you know both clubs are kind of looking for a departure point from what they've been going through over the last few weeks or this season at least right

And a Derby win can do that. I've been really struck by the amount of trepidation that there is among City fans over this game. And I understand it completely watching the team just because of how porous and how vulnerable they've looked, right? So it makes total sense. And there's that kind of the scar tissue, if you like, of previous games against United where they know Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's United teams would have approached this game in a way that would have been perfect for hitting City's vulnerabilities as they presently are.

And so there's that kind of fear factor going in for a lot of City fans. To overcome that and then use that as a catalyst for the rest of the season, I think, you know, could be huge for them. But equally for United, I mean, if it was the first...

Amarant's first big win not only in a derby but against a top Premier League club then that equally could be a huge catalyst for the rest of their season as well but I think it means more to the individual clubs if you like on either side than it does in the ground the picture of things than derbies that we've had recently How about you Sam? I remember saying this before the Liverpool game and I'll say it again now if City were to win on Sunday it would obviously be a massive result and it would mean a lot on the day but we're past the point of one result

being enough to turn things around you know they can't just be united and everything's going to be fixed they've still got all the injuries they've still got the lack of physicality and mobility midfield and all the stuff we talked about so it's big just in the sense of you know get some good vibes back the good vibes aren't going to fix anything you know they could go to villa after that and still lose but you know it it would just help to change the atmosphere around the club but also give the fans something to to cheer again you know it's not a massive game for city in terms of what it all means in the in the

bigger scheme of things because what they need is players back and possibly some new ones in January or the summer but in terms of the match itself I don't need to explain how big a derby victory is for teams. And on that note let's wrap up with some predictions. Tom I'll come to you first because you can have the analytical eye. Yeah I don't think you can analyse this game. It just depends on so many factors.

I've got a sneaky feeling City will kind of find some form, just get a 2-1, 3-1 kind of win. But yeah, that could very easily be undone by a counter-attack in the 30th minute and then that's it. So we'll see. I got very precise in the middle, I like that. Sam, you? Honestly, no idea. When I went to Anfield, everyone was like, oh, this is interesting. I was like...

City are going to get schooled here. There's just no two ways about it. But I don't know on Sunday. I expect City to have the same good bits and bad bits as before. But I don't know what United are going to do. And I don't know what is going to happen when you throw those two teams together. I suppose if I had to guess, I wouldn't be surprised if United won on the break in the way that they have done sometimes against City, even when City are at their best. Because of all the things I've just talked about, we all know City are struggling. And United, as much as they've lost two league games in a row...

that's fairly normal for them isn't it and then they can they can get that motivation back and they can get a performance from somewhere so I suppose if I had to guess I'd go with a with a United win okay so Sam's going for a United win but does sound more optimistic than the trip to our Anfield yeah exactly yeah exactly yeah so that that's a that's a that's a win in a way Mark um I agree with a lot of what Sam said there I just feel that all week I've kind of been leading towards City despite myself because I

I just feel that United are still trying to get everything in place and still trying to work it out and still trying to adapt to exactly what Ruben Almiron's after even in the games like I said before when they've won there's been elements of them not playing particularly well and

And I feel that, you know, while trying to adapt to that style and lead into some of the more counter-attacking tendencies that have traditionally helped them in this fixture, that could just be a bit too much to juggle. So I'm going 2-1 City is how I've had it all week and I'm not moving from that just yet. MUSIC

This episode is brought to you by AWS. Amazon Q Business is the new generative AI assistant from AWS. Many tasks can make business slow, like wading through mud. Help! Luckily, there's a faster, easier, less messy choice. Amazon Q can securely understand your business data to help you streamline tasks, like summarizing quarterly results or doing complex analyses in no time. Q got this. Learn what Amazon Q Business can do for you at aws.com slash learn more.

This year, Santa's bringing the power of Energizer into his workshop. Whoa, the Energizer bunny's got so much power. Wait, he's powered up all the toys. I think that means we're done for the year. I love this bunny. He's the hardest working helper the North Pole has ever seen. And he wants all your gifts to have the power of the number one longest lasting AA battery. So this holiday season, stock up on Santa's and the elves' favorite battery, Energizer Ultimate Lithium.

Let's focus our attention elsewhere now and drop in with some of our writers and podcasts across the Athletic FC. First up, Tottenham head to Southampton on Sunday. Let's hear from Jack Pitbrook, who was in Glasgow last night as Ange Postacoglu took on his old rivals Rangers and saw his Spurs draw 1-1 at Ibrox. Well, that was certainly far from a classic Tottenham performance, but...

I just wonder if in the end that might be a valuable point for them in the Europa League League phase. For the first hour or so, I thought they were really poor. They had Son, Johnson and Werner as the front three. And they all looked really low on confidence. They couldn't really keep the ball well. They...

didn't really get a foothold in the game. And Rangers were all over them. Rangers were much the better team for the first half. They won every 50-50. They created quite a lot themselves. With better finishing, they would have been well clear. In the end, they got the goal back and they managed to hang on and avoid some late pressure to get the point. But it's quite worrying, I think, for Spurs that they're so reliant on Solanke and Kuliseski, two players who they would have wanted to rest in order to get anything from this game.

Last weekend, Newcastle were beaten 4-2 by home Kings Brentford. Here's George Colkin on Pod on the Tyne, reflecting on that defeat ahead of taking on Ruud van Nistelrooy's Leicester. I think this was a real low point. Again, it's not just taking an isolation, coming off after the...

the Liverpool game where things have felt so encouraging to go from that performance to the Brentford performance as a manager must absolutely kill you because you think you've got this moment you'll say to your players you know what you're going to say to your players it's like do that do that again we won't get beaten and

They didn't do it and they have got beaten. We've seen in patches that Newcastle are a good team. We've seen it against Liverpool. We've seen it against Arsenal. We've seen it against big teams that they're capable of challenging those teams and they're not doing it. And I think there's a real issue here with motivation and attitude. And to me, that's...

That is worrying. Arsenal followed up a disappointing Premier League draw at Craven Cottage by beating Monaco 3-0 in the Champions League on Wednesday. Here's James McNicholas speaking on our dedicated Arsenal podcast Handbrake Off about Everton's recent form ahead of their visit to the Emirates. Yeah, I mean, it's a curious run. They got draws against West Ham and Brentford, which I suppose aren't bad results. They then got heavily beaten at Old Trafford and then smashed Wolves 4-0, I think, which was...

a resounding victory and a bit of a surprise. All set pieces, wasn't it? Was it all set pieces? Wow. It's the set piece derby then coming up. It's the set piece derby. Yeah. Should we bother with open play at all? I don't know.

Just take it in turns to take corners and see who wins. I wonder if as well, the substitutions we saw last night, you know, Rice coming off, Martinelli coming off, were those partly with the Everton game in mind? Arteta will be well aware that they're coming into this fresh, but equally, Arsenal come into it with rhythm, right? And sometimes that has a value too. Anything less than a victory is going to be

Really, really disappointing. Premier and Champions League leaders Liverpool made it six wins out of six in Europe on Tuesday, winning 1-0 at Girona. Let's hear from James Pearce, speaking on Walk On, discussing what to expect from Fulham's visit to Anfield this weekend. I think it's a dangerous game. You think back to the fixture at Anfield last season where...

Marcus Silva's team gave Liverpool a hell of a scare. Those two late goals, wouldn't they? I think Trent got the winner really late on. Just watching them against Arsenal last weekend, they limited Arsenal to very few chances. And they pack a punch going forward on the counter-attack for them. And especially when you look at

how open Liverpool were at times, both against Newcastle and against Girona when obviously Alisson came to the rescue. I think that'll be something that slot will be really wary about. It's the kind of game I think where it's laced with a bit of danger because you

A lot of people will be looking at it and think, oh, nailed on, home win. But I think Liverpool are going to have to improve from what we saw in Girona on Tuesday night. And on our Chelsea podcast, straight out of Cobham, here is The Athletic's Liam Toomey on the unorthodox challenge presented by Thomas Frank's Brentford. Brentford don't play like anyone else. And that's actually a real advantage for them. Or at least it has been in their time.

in the top flight, they're quite hard to game plan for because the things that you train, your sort of general principles defensively, don't necessarily apply against Brentford because they do different things and ask different questions of you, certainly from set pieces. Although we've seen now bigger clubs, haven't we, kind of eat into their edge at set pieces, not least Arsenal.

But they are a very smart club. Frank's a very smart coach. I think he's stylistically got more strings to his bow than he's maybe given credit for. They're going to be tricky for Chelsea, regardless of what their form is. It's a London derby and Chelsea

arguably no team in England will come to Stamford Bridge with more confidence than them based on the number of good days they've had there and with that we are done for today's podcast a big thank you to Sam Mark and Tom the Athletic FC will be back on Monday until then have a great weekend and enjoy the football

You've been listening to The Athletic FC Podcast. The producers were Guy Clark, Mike Stavrou and Jay Beal. The executive producer was Aidy Moorhead. To listen to other great athletic podcasts for free, search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. The Athletic FC Podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.

The first ever 12 team college football playoff is set and you can join me, David Ubbin and me, two-time national champion, Alabama, Damian Harris and me, Chris Vanini, two-time national champion in the college football 25 video game on until Saturday, the athletics college football podcast for all the playoff previews, predictions, coaching carousel and transfer portal news four times a week throughout the CFP.

Dame, how do you think Bama is going to do in the playoffs? Shut up, David. The time may be out of the playoffs, but I'm super excited to see the 12 best teams in the nation play. All the banter, insights and more on Until Saturday. Subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.