#20. Joseph Sun: Ready Set Go
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How's it going everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. Today's episode we sit down with a man who is an elite trail runner. So basically what a trail run is, is a race that takes place on natural terrain. So you got to deal with multiple elevation changes, different terrain types, and the weather. So it's like running a marathon but having to deal with all the natural inconsistencies and challenges you would come across in nature.

He competes in multiple national races each year, and his recent finishes have put him in the top 10 of the elite. In addition to trail runs, he is also a competitive obstacle course racer. So what that is, is a time marathon with various obstacle courses you have to complete along the way.

He is also an active leader and board member at FitFam. FitFam is a volunteer-led free fitness community, and it's a really cool movement that's going on for people who really want to take their fitness and exercise seriously. They gather at all sorts of different places to work out, and the whole thing is free. This community started in Shanghai and has currently grown to over 10 cities worldwide.

Eric and I, we had a great time talking with him about fitness, life, running. So without further ado, please welcome Joseph Sun.

I was going to say, it's like, this is not...

Usually that's like one night's worth for me. Yeah, I poured a lot. I'm sorry. I'll just pour a little bit of this. You taste that. All right. Joseph. Hello. Thanks for coming on the show, man. Of course. Thanks for making the time. Happy to be here. Yeah. This is very good. Yeah, it's pretty good, right? I like the Jorah. And in the meantime, we're almost forgetting to do this. I'm Justin. I'm Eric. Howie's not with us today, but fuck him. And we have our guest, Joseph.

Yeah. Are you a whiskey, much of a whiskey drinker, Joseph? I am definitely a very casual whiskey drinker. So I feel like I know what I prefer. I feel like Eric. Okay. No, no, no. Which one do you prefer? I actually prefer the Jiro. Okay. Let's do it. Boom. It's perfect. Yeah. Justin was really hoping for that result too. He almost gagged last time.

No, I like that one, actually. Okay, so here we go. Let me pour this out. Was it a big difference for you, Joseph? Definitely noticed a difference in alcohol level. Like, Joseph hasn't been drunk in, like, about seven years. Is that true, or are you just joking? No, no.

It's longer. How often do you drink? Do you go out on a weekend and have a drink or two? Is that the extent of it? I have probably a glass of wine almost every night. But in terms of drinking, drinking, getting drunk, it has been a while. But everyone's standards are different. What is drinking, drinking to you? What does that mean to you? Less than...

Anything more than probably like five drinks. Is drinking drink. Yeah. Cheap drunk. And you're drunk by five drinks. Yeah. Like cocktails. I'm looking at Justin's face right now. No judgment. No judgment. I'm like mind blown right now. Well, the benchmarks to finish the bottle. Luckily, this bottle is only like a sixth left. Yeah. So we can do this. Justin's like, wow, that's a cheap date. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

Yeah, I like that. It's nice. All right. Let's get into the meat of it then. Yeah, Joseph? How about that? Let's do it. So really, I mean, you're an interesting guy all around, but I think the focus of what we want to talk about with you today is more like fitness related. Because I know you're deeply entrenched and involved in the fitness community in Shanghai publicly and privately in your personal life, I guess. So...

I guess maybe the first general question is like, what is your fitness philosophy? Like, what does fitness mean to you? Yeah, awesome. So I think maybe I can just share a little bit of just a little bit of my background. Yeah, go ahead. So I think growing up, I've always really enjoyed playing sports. So super active, especially compared to my brother who wasn't as athletic as me.

But I really enjoyed basketball. That was like my first sport growing up. I think a lot of Asian kids growing up in the U.S. seem to have loved basketball. So I did that. I was really, really short though until probably freshman year of high school. I was pretty much looking up to – I remember I was looking up to the girls like until high school. So you had your growth spurt at freshman year of high school? Yeah, it was like until freshman year of high school. And then –

So yeah, I played sports growing up, never on the teams. And then high school, I picked up golf as a result of my dad playing a lot. So I joined the high school golf team. Did a little bit of running. But again, it was never like... I've always enjoyed exercise, but I've never really...

committed myself to being the best at a certain sport or being really good at running or whatever it may be. So you weren't like a jock or anything? You wouldn't define yourself? No, not a jock, but I was always known to be very energetic. It was always about, I would give a lot of effort whatever sport I played. There was a story where I actually played, there was a bet, I played two on one

It was me against two other guys for basketball. And then I had a nickname on the basketball court called The Beast. But basically, I'm one of those guys. I'm not super quick on the basketball court, but I'll get every rebound. Okay.

okay and i'll be quite aggressive with so like defense was your thing yeah defending and just like being using my just basically like your energy energy activity he was like the dennis rodman of the asian la community yeah pretty much um so actually yeah that that story actually beat them that was was really funny but what you you were the one yeah it was the one and then and they were the two guys yeah and you beat them yeah wow um

I think I won $20, but it was just funny because a bunch of other guys were just giving those two guys crap. It's like, if you guys just use a little bit of strategy, it shouldn't be that hard, right? But yeah, just like fast forward, I think it was probably not until in the past, I would say year and a half where I really compared to my past where I really committed myself to dedicating myself to improving, whether it be running,

Or I've done a couple obstacle course races in the last year. So yes, to answer your original question, I think my philosophy would be, I think, I think it's, for me, it's like, I've always enjoyed sports, but it's evolved over the years. And I think a couple of things we can probably dig into here. It's like whether it's working out with a group,

um setting some clear goals when it comes to races i think that's that's kind of changed so what kind of races are you talking about yeah so let's see i did um so i did so recently i've been on air air notes as well i've done a couple uh a few spartan races this last year and basically spartan races um is obstacle course racing so it's a mix of running plus um

You do a lot of, you go through obstacles basically. So think like monkey bars, rope climb. So it's like a marathon, but with obstacles in the way. Exactly. So what's good about it is that it's, it not only is cardio, but it also tests like upper body strength. So it's pretty good in terms of all around training. So I've gotten into that the last, I would say, especially the last half year.

And that was primarily thanks to, I think, having a group of people who are really passionate about getting better. I think that's helped me a lot, just be more focused. So this...

So did this click about half a year ago in terms of like your involvement in the fitness world and just even your own personal philosophies? Or was this something that started much earlier? Or did it kind of click for you just about half a year ago and that's when you really got into it? Yeah. So I think it was basically...

When I got to Shanghai, I was exploring different gym memberships. When was this? This was almost four years ago. So I moved to China about January 2016. So it'll be approaching four years. And I was exploring gym memberships. I was looking at yoga places. And I thought all of them were quite interesting.

it's either they were really expensive or the facility itself wasn't that nice. So I ended up signing up for just a very mediocre gym and working out, like lifting weights by myself in the gym, didn't really have a clear fitness goal. And then... So you were just like casually working out? Like how many times a week at that point where you were working out? Like four or five times a week. Oh, so you were going... So I was like staying active, but I wasn't like, it wasn't very, I wouldn't call myself very inspiring in the sense that I was just kind of

of going along with the flow. You were just doing some like traditional workouts in the gym, like using the treadmill elliptical machines and you work out for like an hour and then. Exactly. Like treadmill, you know, it's classic, like, you know, squats and all that stuff. Um, so that was a continuation from sort of the routine I developed in college and post college. And then, um, that, that's when I discovered sort of a fitness community where, um,

Basically, we work out in public spaces for free just using your body weight. And I found that to be quite inspiring in terms of you don't need much to get a good workout. What is this community you're talking about? Yeah, so the community itself is called FitFam. So it's short for fitness family. And it started in Shanghai with a group of small people about three years ago now.

And they were originally the group was called the People's Gym. They started at Luan Stadium and they were just a bunch of people who wanted to work out together.

And then eventually that community grew. But I think one of the one thing that really inspired me from that community is the consistency people had towards their training and then having a group of people to support you along the way. And the fact that you don't need much to get in a good workout. So I think that was inspiring in terms of

Just the consistency aspect. And then, yeah. So it felt like at that point, you saw people kind of adopted fitness as truly a lifestyle thing and not just something they do after work just to relieve the stress, just casually. But they were very consistent about it over time. And the workouts were pretty hardcore? Yeah. So the workouts were...

It was just, it was a different vibe than the people you see at the gym. Like the people, some of the original people that I met through 5th FM, they were just very passionate about like,

getting a good workout without needing much. So it's, um, like I think most, probably most people know about this, um, like hit format where it's like high intensity interval training where you work out really hard for set amount of time, then you rest and then mostly it's using your body weight. So it's basically, um, yeah, they're, they're just super passionate about holding these workouts together, um,

without needing much. And then you can actually push yourself a lot through it. So to answer your question, if you're really pushing yourself, let's say 40 seconds of burpees and then rest for 10 seconds,

And you do that for about 30 minutes, mixing in different types of workouts. Um, it's actually really, really, it's, it's a quite a tough workout. Yeah, sure. So like for, it sounds like as you were looking for a, you know, like a fitness regime, um, you know, fit fam kind of started around the same time. What has it done for your, your personal level of fitness? We know that you've kind of, you know, had some great success and, um, some, you know, national races recently, but like, what does that look like for you?

Yeah, I think, and this probably translates to other aspects of my life. There's probably some pattern here, but I think I've always felt like, you know, fitness or exercise is something I was sort of naturally drawn to, but I never really pushed myself to the point where I would want like to put in the work or the consistency to really improve. And I think FitFam and having access to a group of people, um,

who are very self-motivated without, you know, like again, just without needing much to get in a good workout. It helped me have more accountability towards myself in terms of my own sort of fitness journey. So yeah,

A lot of these workouts and most of the ones that I attend, they start at 6 a.m. So I remember when I first started going, you know, if the workout starts at 6 a.m., you probably have to wake up just past 5. And so there's definitely mornings where I'm like, do I really want to go? But there's so many things about the community, the way they just sort of self-regulate. Like people call out, like you basically just call out a number the day before saying that you're coming.

and so just publicly even just saying that in a in a group chat it kind of like the next morning when when you wake up you're like i got i gotta go right accountability yeah exactly so i think it really helped me become more consistent and then i learned um i also learned a lot in terms of just using your own body weight you can get in a lot of good workouts that's cool so it's absolutely free it's

Yeah, so it's completely free. So just like I could just like just show up and just start working out with you guys? Is that how it works? Yeah. Yeah, so it's... Yeah, the beauty of it that it's free. And so basically we just ask that you show up on time and that you try your best and that's pretty much it. And I think what...

what makes the community unique, the fact that it's free is that it makes it extremely, extremely accessible. So I think one of the key differentiators about the community is that it attracts people from all kinds of different backgrounds. So whether it's your fitness level, so you could be an athlete to someone who just started working out, uh, to your age. So we have like, there's, you know, kids who come or college students to much older people who are retired, join us. Um,

ethnicity wise. We have originally it was probably majority foreigners. Now it's I think 60% local, 40% foreigners. So it's quite extremely diverse. So it's really like a motley crew of people. Yeah, it's quite interesting. You see

All shapes and forms. Well, you know, I think Joseph's being actually super humble here. And I, you know, so I've known Joseph for what, like three or four years now. And I have to say he was one of the key influences to getting me into fitness. And, you know, I was never into fitness. You know, I never played sports and just generally not a very athletic person.

And, you know, I've gotten into it and, you know, done, you know, several obstacle course races and sort of started getting into the community a little bit. When I joined one of his training sessions about two years ago, you know, it was like I showed up. It's like 6 a.m. You know, it's like literally dying. And what struck me was that it's really professional. Right. So like.

The people that volunteer in the community, these guys are pretty serious athletes, but they're super humble. They're not like the guys that are at the gym for the vanity. These guys are truly, truly fit. They are very accomplished athletes, but they don't really brag about it. And they do it out of, Joseph keeps talking about the passion, but they just do it out of a genuine...

you know, love for the community and wanting to get people. So it's this really interesting dichotomy. It's the balance of, you know, you can join, anyone can join, right? As long as you show up on time and kind of follow, you know, their guidelines, but you get a kick ass, you know, hardcore workout. And so I remember I was like hurting for, you know, like a week after the workout, you know? Um,

So it's led by really, really, really fit people, but it's accessible. So you don't ever feel like, you know, people are kind of above you. Right. But at the same time you can push yourself. And if you do it long-term, you actually get really, really fit. Joseph and I, you know, we kind of train for some of the obstacles outside of fit fam. Then we do sort of weekly stuff and it's sort of at that level, but it's even more targeted. But if you're just looking for fitness, right, if you want to lose weight, um,

You know, you want more stamina, that kind of stuff. Like these guys are pretty legit. As a point of reference, like I try to find when I was traveling in Japan and some other places, like I have some friends that are super duper into, you know, super fit. And I went to some of those grassroots ones as well. Like they were good. They were nice, but it wasn't like legit, like fit fam, like fit fam is just like legit. And literally like every night, the booking process, right? I mean, like,

So they've built an app, like it's on WeChat, across like the 50 locations. And then to share the experience, there's a cap in terms of number of people that can join. And they open the booking for the next day at 8 p.m. because they want committed people, right? And like literally you go on and in one minute for some of the popular locations, if you don't book within the first 30 seconds, it's booked out.

It's insane, right? And then if you try to cancel on this and that and you have more than a couple cancellations, you get banned. I don't know if you get banned, but they don't look positively on you. So it's kind of like getting that really professional gym trainer workout, but you would miss the community aspect of that piece. So I think...

It's something that's pretty interesting that started organically in China. And I think it's like, I mean, there's a lot of people, right? Like now it's like, I mean, across China, it's getting into like, I don't know, thousands of people. It's pretty crazy. So after all this time and involvement, whether it's your own thing with the marathons and Spartan, what you're doing on your own and with FitFam,

What have you learned about fitness that you find the most effective? Because obviously, you know, there's all this information out there. And if you go on YouTube, there's all these fitness channels and everyone has a different school of thought as to what is, you know, the most effective workout and what you should be doing and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, and obviously there's a lot of misinformation out there as well, right? So what have you learned to be most true and effective for you?

Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of these...

at the end of the day, it's marketing. Like who has the loudest voice? Who has the best channel to be like, hey, like HIIT is the best format for your health or yoga is the best thing for you, right? So my philosophy, at least the way I've approached sort of picking up new ways to exercise or move is I want to be really clear on like the why for myself, like why I'm doing something. So I'm,

For FitFam, for me, it's like I get a chance to lead a group of very diverse people to do a workout. And then it's a HIIT format typically. So I'll do that at least once a week.

And then recently I've, I've done yoga on and off for like maybe five, six years. And then recently I'm picking it back up again because I feel like it's actually one of those things where it compliments, um, some, some of my other workouts really well, like hit and running. And so, you know, going to the yoga thing, I was like, okay, I'm going to focus on maybe some of the stronger format within yoga and

And then that should help with my upper body strength as well as my endurance when I'm running as well as flexibility. So I think anytime someone is into something or is considering something, just being kind of, you know, besides what you read and what people tell you, maybe just like jotting down for yourself, like why, why you think you might be interested in this or maybe doing it a few times and then decide, okay, this is what I like about it. This is what I don't like about it. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that, and I remember, you know, starting to work out a couple of years ago and, you know, and Joseph and I work together as well. So we see each other quite often and,

And, you know, I'd have all these fancy ideas like, I want to do this. I want to do this, you know? And, and, you know, they're, they probably weren't as realistic. Right. Um, and so, you know, he really asked me like, why do you want to do this? You know, why? Or we go work out and train for some Spartans. And like, we do like ridiculous, like, you know, some, some of our listeners might know, like we do these like five or six hour summer workouts. It's just like bone crushing, like 2000, 3000 active calories kind of thing. Um,

And, and he, he's kind of like, well, why do you want to do this? Right. And I think it's a super powerful question because once you can answer that, um, it helps, it helps you train in the right way. It also helps you sustain things. And that reason is like a little bit different for everyone, but once you can really figure out the why and you ask yourself in every workout, um,

it helps you then be able to sustain that performance across a long period of time once you center on that reason. So I think that's something like, you know, I have to thank Joseph for is just,

you know, helping me build that mindset and helping lots of people, right? I'm one person, but like, there's tons of people in the community. I think one of the things I remember him telling me about FitFam in the very beginning was that, because I was, you know, kind of like, there's critics, right? They're like, oh, like, you're not certified or this and that, or you get injured and, you know, and having a certification or having qualification doesn't

you know, make like doesn't guarantee you won't be injured. Right. Number one. And number two is that, um, there are a lot of people that go, like there are a lot of athletes that go to fit fam, but there's a lot of just beginners like myself that go to fit fam. And, um,

it brings access. It brings something that seems out of reach for a lot of people. And I think the inspiring thing is that, you know, probably some of these people have gone through the process and eventually they become, you know, maybe a leader of a, you know, like they never thought so. Right. And so then I see like, cause when I went, like it wasn't, it was like, you know, 20%, like less than 20% expat. It was like very, very local, you know, and it was quite interesting to see like a full range of, of, uh, of people. Yeah. Yeah.

So what do you guys find is usually the why behind the fitness and why people do this? Because you guys engage with a lot of different people. What do you find is usually the why for them? Is there one or is it just always different? I think most people, myself included, they really like the idea of, I think it goes back to self-improvement. So like,

fitness and health is like one of the most tangible things where if you really focus on it, you can see a clear self-improvement. So people like the idea of progress, challenging themselves, being able to, you know, complete a race that they never thought they could. I think people really, really value that sense of accomplishment. Um, so having like basically just pushing themselves more. Um, I know for me personally, it's, it's like,

Can I stick to something for a period of time and really improve, improve, improve, and then feel proud of what I did? I feel like that learning and that journey can apply. I can apply that to a lot of parts of my life. Luckily for me, fitness has always been a passion of mine. So to use that as an example where I can apply it to other areas of life of just dedicating myself to something, improving, I think that's a big...

And it's like once you get a taste for it, it becomes almost addictive, right? Yeah. And you know what it takes to work towards a goal and then get to a certain point. Maybe you might not be the fastest guy or whatever, the strongest person. But compared to your previous self and just knowing yourself how much you've improved, I think it's very rewarding. And it just gives you a lot of confidence with a lot of things. Yeah.

Well, I got to believe that weight loss for a lot of the normal people is also a big reason, right? So, I mean, I've heard that HIIT is like the way to go for losing weight. Would you agree with that? Yeah, like...

So one thing I've, and just like full transparency, one thing I've noticed myself is, is like, I, I don't, I haven't done the sort of full research on like with the scientific reasons. Fuck the science. Like, you know, because it's one thing reading the science and science is great. Right. But,

But then there are very, there's a lot of conflicting articles and research out there. And with any kind of scientific research, they can only test for so many variables in each experiment. So then there's always another test that kind of conflicts with that, the results of that test, because they're testing for different variables in that test.

So there's always controversy in terms of a lot of scientific research, especially in terms of nutrition and fitness and that industry as a whole. So that's one thing. But what I'm more interested in, what I find more, what I trust more are people's actual, like people that I trust.

their actual experiences and what they see actually like what they've found to be effective for them like i take that very importantly um i mean that weighs a lot in my decision making right versus just reading information online and just one disclaimer here right um so joseph and i work in a company that where we have a lot of fit people like it's you know a lot of people that are

you know, that are regularly workout. He is known and we have a pretty big office here in Shanghai. He is known as one of the fittest guys. And there've been some occasions where somehow his abs were displayed. And yeah, there was definitely some high pitched cries. Displayed where? I can't remember. Like I think he was doing some, leading some workouts, but he is known, you know, cause I think most, we haven't released,

videos yet, right? But he's known for having that like chiseled, chiseled body. Like he's ripped, right? Like I always embarrass him when we go to races because he likes to race with his shirt off. Makes it go faster. Less wind resistance. Less weight. Every race he asks me like, are you going to race with your shirt off? And I'm like, hell no.

And so I'm always, I'm like, so people at the office are like, Hey, how, you know, we get back from a race on the weekend. We, you know, from out of town, like, how was the race? And I just show them the photo and they're just like, Oh,

So, so like when, when you talk about sort of the proof in the pudding, like fuck the scientific research, you just look at Joseph's body. Like I would, I would kill for one of those. Well, so that's why, that's why I want to ask you, like, what have you found in terms of weight loss or, you know, getting ripped or, you know, whatever those terms, you know, people use and throw around. Yeah. Like what have you found to be most effective for you? Yeah. And this is going to sound cliche to start, but, um,

I do think everyone's body is a little bit different. Like me, myself, I, I, I've noticed that if I actually eat, I not, not to go on a diet or anything, just eat normal meals, not overeating, not under eating. And then if I'm exercising routinely, I can get like,

like I can have a whatever six pack, right? It's not, it's not like it's, that's relatively easy for me. Well, what are you eating then? What's your normal meal? I bet it's very different from what I normally eat. Yeah. It's funny. Cause I love snacking. I get the munchies like at night. Um, especially if I have like a glass of,

So, like, what is a cheat meal for you? Like a bowl of broccoli? Like, what is it? Yeah, with some, like, extra toppings. Coming on the honest drink is his cheat meal. That is, yeah, exactly. I don't even have, I wouldn't say I have cheat, I'm not.

So I read, I can share this one thing. So I, I, um, in terms of the actual workout, I honestly think as long as you're moving, it's, it's already great. And it depends like where you're starting at, right? Like even someone, someone who goes from like never doing anything to just walking. I think that's great. Um, someone who's already exercising, maybe they can optimize a little bit more and increase like higher intensity workouts, whether that's hit, um,

or like you know boxing or whatever sport they might be interested in i think it's good i do think a lot of it does come back back to like in addition to staying active like what you consume right i i really do believe that's like a large part of it like more than 50 of it and one thing i i remember sort of just reading recently and this was actually a resource i read from work is this idea of

like diets versus this concept that someone branded called like health at every size. And so there's a good matrix, but the way they labeled it is like the way they view food, like diets view food as like a restriction, like you're restricting yourself, right? Whereas this concept of health at every size, it's about like enjoyment and eating based on your intuition, right?

What does that mean, though? Yeah, it can sound quite vague. So I think knowing when you're eating, like if you're full, you'll know when to stop. If you're overeating or if you're just getting the munchies, you kind of know intuitively you're probably overeating. So like practicing more awareness with your eating and nutrition? Yeah. Just like more awareness? More awareness and I think not beating yourself up with some of these diets or like it's a very restrictive thing.

mentality. And it's been proven actually over time where, and I don't have the actual source for this, but if you go on a diet versus the people who didn't go on a diet over time, weight-wise, the people who went on a diet actually rebound afterwards. It makes sense, right? It makes sense in the sense that

you know, your, your weight is probably a combination of, you know, your genetics. Right. But there's also like anything else, there's a, you know, the, the, just your daily habits and your behaviors. And so, um,

you know, if you're building a kind of a mindset of knowing like why you eat and sort of intuitively feeling how much you eat and then you're able to sustain that regularly, I mean, it sounds quite just basic, but,

then over time, if you look mathematically at how much intake you have, number of meals per day times amount of intake, and you're kind of just taking a reasonable approach to it, then there's probably a figure associated with that, right? But a lot of people, like they pig out, you know, like they...

you know, they eat more in certain circumstances and this and that, you know, and they kind of binge and then they, you know, they go on a diet. And if you really look math, because all of this ends up being mathematical, it's sort of like genetically, how much do you take in? How much, you know, the, and then you do all the math and you probably figure out that your lifestyle impacts that tremendously. Right. So if you're kind of depriving yourself all the time, and then one night you go and get, you get drunk and then you have, you know, um,

you know, like McDonald's or whatever, right? Then over time, it all adds up and you just don't kind of like keep track of it. And so just being intentional, knowing why you're eating, like, and, you know, working through that in the moment. I mean, I'm naturally, you know, I'm not, I think it's been hard for me to kind of like put on weight, but even, you know, even so, like a lot of people, you know, they said that, wow, like you used to be a lot, you know, chubbier than you are now, you know? And I think it's just,

adopting that kind of regular daily intuition into your eating. You know, of course, everyone's a little bit different, right? But compared to yourself, I think if you adopt this approach, you'll come out a little bit ahead. Well, it sounds like me. It sounds to me like it's pretty much the same thing. What we're really talking about is this mindset, right? Because I feel like if you're not eating well, right?

to some degree or another, it's inescapable that you're going to be, you're going to have to restrict yourself in some way. You have to discipline yourself in some way. I mean, I think that's what, I think that's an unavoidable, right? Like you're going to have to restrict yourself from eating junk foods or, or eating less of portion is an issue for you. Um,

I mean, I think that's unavoidable. I think it's just what you're talking about is more of the mindset you take and how you approach that. It kind of makes all the difference where you don't see it as restrictive behavior.

but you see it more as like a long-term lifestyle change or something like that? I think the rebound effect is so, it's like, I think if you deprive yourself, then the rebound effect is so much stronger. It's like, I think if every meal you eat to the point where you're satisfied, right? Because like I went through a period where it was kind of like, you know, I'd have some drinks and I would eat and I would go overboard, right?

Like, you know, I would be eating more than I needed to. And eventually I kind of got used to that feeling of just pigging out. Right. And then like whatever it is, unhealthy foods. And it was never really satisfying. You would go to the point where you would feel sick, you know, like you just feel bad. And then every meal was just kind of compounding. So you're like, how do you out, you know, like one up with that?

And then sort of like once I scaled that back a little bit and said, I just want to eat till I'm pretty full and not go crazy, be a little bit judicious and selective about the stuff. But like, you know, like eating a chicken, like eating roasted chicken, I'm like, I'm not going to cut the fucking like skin off. I'm going to enjoy that shit. Right. And so as long as you leave a little pleasure in every meal, then I think over time, you're not going to just go mental on stuff. Yeah. Right. I think, you know, so because I'm, this is something I,

Because I'm talking from my own personal experience and that kind of perspective. And so I'm sitting here with you guys and I'm looking at you guys. I'm like, okay, it's easy for you guys to say. You guys have always been thin. You guys haven't had the same kind of appetite issues that maybe I've gone through in my life. I started off thin and I went through a period of my life where I just completely gorged and literally by the very definition became obese.

I was obese for a long time. And I just had a really poor lifestyle. Among many other things I was doing, obviously my nutrition was one of the main factors. I was eating the most horrible foods and not only eating the most horrible foods, but eating a ton of the most horrible foods. I would wait till I was really hungry and starving and

And then just gorge, right? Like I wouldn't eat throughout the day. I wouldn't eat frequently. I would eat seldomly. But when I would eat, I would be starving. I'd be so hungry that I would just gorge on like all the shit that I wanted to eat, right? Like all the worst foods you can think of, like chili cheese fries, like buffalo wings, burgers, pizza, like all the shit you're not supposed to eat. Yeah.

Like, you know. It's legendary. There's a legendary story. It's legendary. I'll say this on air. Like, I walked into a McDonald's once and I literally ordered one of everything on the menu. And the guys, you know, they thought it was crazy. I was there. Yes. And it was three of everything, not one. Three of everything. So, I'm saying...

I don't think I could be wrong. I don't know, but I don't think you guys have gone to that place and let yourself go that bad before. And while I might be more of an extreme case, there's a bunch of people out there that I know that share my mindset in terms of, well, it's easy for you to say to be like, oh, well, just eat till you feel you're full and then just stop there.

But for a lot of people, what they feel is satisfied and what they feel is full or when they feel satisfied is already over the limit. Already over the limit. And that's what I used to be like. So...

So I'm saying like, I don't know. I don't know if there's a shortcut to that because for me, there was no kind of workaround for it. I just had to bite the bullet and be like, this is fucking terrible what I'm doing. And if I keep doing this, I'm not going to live much longer and I'm going to just run into a bunch of health problems.

So I just had to find it in me to discipline myself and bite that bullet and just be like, look, I just can't eat like that anymore. And it was really tough. I rebounded several times. I failed over and over again. It took me several years, but now I'm at a place and I'm not perfect. I'm not there yet, but I'm much, much better than where I was. And since then, I've lost like 50 pounds, right?

literally. So I, and it came through after several failures, several rebounds, and I just never found that easy shortcut, that mythical shortcut that everyone says when you go online and YouTube, everyone's like, if you do this, it doesn't work. Everyone's like selling this, marketing this shortcut, this magic bullet.

But I just don't think that exists because I couldn't, I mean, I can't say it exists, but I couldn't find it. And I just had to bite the bullet and just man the fuck up and just restrict myself. I had to find that discipline. There wasn't this kumbaya kind of like, oh, you know, you can just eat, you can still be good and still be like satisfied and eat. No, I couldn't have that mentality. I had to adopt that Goggins mentality, just be like pain, pain, you know, restrict, you know, just like be a man and just fight.

fight through it. And eventually over time, I got used to it, you know? And now I'm used to it. So now if I were to eat as much as I was, I did back then, I like, I die. I like, I'd be, I couldn't like even physically eat that much anymore. So I've changed physically a lot, not just mentally, but,

So that's why I was bringing up before, like, I just don't know if, I think it's just more of a mentality thing and a discipline thing versus, because the restriction thing, I think is unavoidable. If you do want to get, you know, eat really healthy, if you want to have a nutrition game on point, you're going to have to restrict yourself to

two different degrees, depending on where you start. - Yeah, I think that's fair. If I could ask you a question, maybe just to go back to why, I think you mentioned long-term health. So was there any, was it a specific moment or a situation that prompted you to want to make an effort to eat better? Or was it sort of just gradually over time you're like,

You probably knew yourself, you're like, well, I shouldn't be eating like this. A little bit of both. I think what really prompted me was I was just tired of failing. I got sick of it. I'm a pretty proud person. I like to think of myself like I have the discipline in me. And usually with pretty much all the facets of my life,

I'm okay. I don't really have any too many like crazy vices. Um, I can find discipline where I need it. But when it came to food, that has always been my like Achilles heel. That has always been like that one weakness I can never control. And people who know me really well, they know that. Um,

So I failed so many times that I think over a short period of time, I'd wake up after a night of gorging or a night of going out and binge drinking. And usually a lot of the gorging will come after I got drunk, right? You go out drinking, get buzzed, and then that's when you lose all self-control, right? You pass by a pizzeria. You're not the only one. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Or at that hour, only the fast food places are available. Yeah.

So that's when you start going crazy. And so I failed so many times that I just got so sick of failing. I got so sick of myself. I got so disappointed in myself that I couldn't overcome myself.

what is supposed to be a pretty simple thing, like intellectually, on paper, it's simple. Like just don't eat that much. It's not simple though, right? It's not. But on paper, it really is, right? So many people have this issue. And it's funny, like if you're walking on the streets in Shanghai nowadays, like...

From a place where people used to not have enough to eat, like, I mean, the obesity issue here in China is getting pretty severe. It's getting pretty severe. It's getting severe. And we talked about this with the episode we had Victor on from Food Fresh, right? He was talking about this. He's like, you know, China is the next, is in the midst of the greatest kind of like obesity epidemic ever.

in the world right now. It's next up. It used to be America, but now it's China with all the influx of these fatty foods and

and fast food joints and all these like convenience store, like, you know, like snacks and that they've never really, um, had engineered. Right. Cause like, like, like, you know, back home in America we have, you know, Pringles and you know, all that stuff. But here you got like, you know, you know, like, I mean, it's, that stuff is engineered to make you want to eat it. It's engineered to taste fucking awesome and be addictive. Right. No, but I just stopped. Like, I just don't eat it. Like I just,

Because I think once you eat it, it's like Pringles. You can't just have one. So I just don't eat it. And so then over time, the desire kind of wanes a little bit. I think it does go back. And I think our listeners will really appreciate that. Whether it's eating or other parts of your life, we all have...

you know, things that we do that we don't want to do, or, or we have a difficult time sort of like managing ourselves, you know? Um, and, um,

it goes back to like your prioritization and it goes back to asking why and what's the most important thing. So at some point you reflected and you're like, I don't want to live my life like this anymore. Right. And you know, you had to have that, have that belief then that drives everything. So whether it's like diet or fitness or whatever it is, I think a lot of us are in a bad place.

So for me, like inactivity, you know, I, yes, I've been, you know, naturally kind of just skinny, but I had a lot of inactivity, you know what I'm saying? Like over the week, like I wouldn't do anything. Like I just, I wouldn't, you know, and it was, it wasn't good to not sort of be active. Right. And I think, you know, you get to a point where you're like, okay, why is this happening? And then what are the little dominoes that you kind of have to do?

So I think we all have that demon, but it's not, I agree with you. There's not like one sort of like shortcut. It's sort of like, what's okay. Okay. I'm not going to get wasted tonight, which will then help me like, you know, curb some of the gorging. Right. So I think there's like a lot of little things that you do that end up having a disproportionately large impact. But once you go down that path, it's like game over. Right. But most of us have gone that path so many times that we're like, fuck it. I'm not, I don't want to go down that path anymore. Yeah.

Yeah. I think a lot of people also like me have failed so many times and each time they fail, they get discouraged and they feel like that goal post is gets further and further away each time they fail and they lose more and more hope. Right. It just dwindles. So I kind of had to catch myself and notice like, no, like each failure doesn't set me back further. It's just another chance for me to, to come back stronger. Right. So like,

I don't know if everyone can understand this, but I think it really just comes down to making that decision. Like truly making that decision. A lot of people say they want to lose weight. I said that to myself a bunch of times. I looked at myself in the mirror and be like, "Oh, I want to lose weight. I'm going to do it. Starting Monday, I'm going to eat clean. I'm going to hit the gym again. I'm going to do all these things."

And then I fuck up and then I rebound. And then again, deja vu, right? Groundhog day. I'd be sitting, like standing in front of the mirror again and be like, I'm gonna lose weight. I'm gonna do it Monday. I'm gonna start clean. Okay, boom, boom, boom. But, and I was only lying to myself that I truly, because looking back, every time I said that to myself, there was a peace of my mind. There was a voice in my head, the faint voice in my head that wasn't 100% on board. Yeah.

with getting right. And there was always that little bit of doubt, that cushion that sent me like, well, you know, I'm saying it to myself, I want to do this, but I never truly made that decision to myself, I am going to do this. Because there was always that voice in my head, almost inaudible, but it's there, that wasn't 100% on board, right? That was like that doubt. And until you can really understand

account like account for yourself and truly truly honestly make that decision i will do this that's all it takes but that decision is so hard to make because it's not like it's almost not like a conscious decision it's like you really have to i don't know for me i had to fail so many times for me to realize like look i need to cast all doubt

I need to hold myself completely accountable. I need to be 100% on board internally, spiritually, everything, mentally. I can't have a fraction of a doubt because if I have a fraction of a doubt, I'm going to fuck up again. And that's why I always kept fucking up. And it wasn't until I was able to truly make a decision, I will do this, that's when it became easy.

Once you make a decision to do it, it's actually pretty easy because there's nothing physically in your way of doing this. You know what I mean? There's nothing physically in your way of eating better. You don't even have to eat 100% healthy, but just eating better, improve incrementally, right? Go and work out. Stay active. There's nothing hard about that at all.

once you make the decision, truly make the decision to do it and you're not lying to yourself about it. - Yep. Can I ask you, so when you do rebound or when you do not eat well nowadays, how do you react to it like yourself? Like when you do have a night of whatever?

I feel terrible. Like, like I physically feel, feel terrible. Right. What about mentally? Like, do you beat yourself up? Are you like, you just brush it aside? You know, see, see, even that part has gotten better. Right. So I'm glad you asked that because even my rebounds, because I do occasionally still go out and, you know, I'll drink a little more than I should or eat a little more than I should. I mean, you still live, you know what I mean? Sure. You still enjoy life. Right. Yeah.

But when I do that, I know because I'm so set in my routine now and I'm clear about what my nutrition program is like, what my fitness regimen is like, and I'm very comfortable in that now that even when I do fuck up,

I know like, okay, I fucked up. It doesn't, I don't beat myself up over it. And I just jump right back into my routine of like, and then it just goes away. You know? And any weight, let's say, I gain, I have gained that night of just pigging out or whatever, I lose in that next week. Right? In that next week. And so now it has come to a point where I almost schedule everything

those fuck ups in because otherwise that's just to keep me sane right that's just to keep me like from not getting you know just so I can have a little spice in my life I guess from time to time so I actually schedule those in like once a month or whatever right where I like I give that I give myself that I give it to myself so I don't beat myself over it up over it

Yeah. It's like expected. And I, and because I have a routine to fall back into and I'm clear about it, like I can, I just work it off again. So Joseph, like, I mean, you're Mr. Picture perfect. And you know, like, but like, like I think a lot of listeners can relate to what Justin was saying. But like, do you, can you relate? Are there any aspects of your life where you, um,

On the surface, everyone thinks you're perfect in terms of your fitness and your self-control and self-discipline. But what are things that you struggled with and how did you overcome those things? Great question, yeah. I feel like this is a leading question. I feel like Eric is trying to point me in a certain direction. No, I can actually – there's a couple of things I can relate to. I can relate to the food thing too because I definitely –

I think I have the benefit of enjoying exercise and my genetics allows me to stay in this shape. But I definitely have moments where I definitely binge. Like I said earlier, if I have a drink, I'll want to eat more. So that definitely happens. Some of the questions as you were sharing that story, I actually found myself relating to a lot of it. I think...

one of the things I read somewhere is this idea of learned helplessness. So once you do something so many times, so many times, so many times, you think that's just the way it is. Or I don't know any other way except for munching on stuff after I have a few drinks because that's what I have. That's just what it is, right? But even learning that term and seeing that people have studied this, it's just being aware that that's a thing.

Um, so that, that kind of helped. And then when I asked you that question about like, do you beat yourself up after you have these rebounds? Like, cause I, I think maybe as people who all are very like into improving themselves, I think at least for me, I often like beat myself up when I know I'm not doing the right thing. So whether that's like, you know, not having like overeating or doing things I know I shouldn't be doing, um, I tend to beat myself up.

But then it's good in some ways because it pushes you to want to improve more. But at the same time, it can be counterproductive if it makes you kind of like you're not as like your guilty, your sense of guilt like outweighs your ability to like improve. And then maybe then you resort to like other things that fills that gap. So I think just even being aware of like using –

being like, kind of like, this sounds like kind of maybe to whatever, whatever you want to call it, but like, just also just accepting yourself for these, these times where you like take a step back, um, accepting yourself and acknowledging like, you know, this is, it's fine, but then also being able to just, um,

So accept it and then move on quickly, I think is quite important as well. If that makes sense, yeah. Well, beating myself up, I used to beat myself up like crazy, but that's when I didn't have a system in place. I wasn't clear about...

this whole thing and I didn't have like a routine, a regimen, both on the nutrition side and the fitness side. So every time I rebounded, I just felt completely lost. Like I felt lost. Like I didn't know where I was. I didn't know who I was. I felt like I just, I'd gone back to zero or even less, you know, minus zero.

And I was just completely lost. And every time I was just like, well, what am I gonna do? Like, I'm never gonna get out of this. Like, what am I to do? But now the reason why I don't beat myself up anymore because I'm not lost. I'm good now. Like, I have my routine. I'm clear about it. I'm clear about myself. I'm devoted. I'm prioritizing it as a value in my life to do as a priority. And I have the system in place. So even if I fuck up,

I just jump right back into that system and I'm all good again. And I know that I have that. It's like a safety net for me, right? It's like a blanket for me. Like, I know I have that. So when I do fuck up, yeah, I might feel a little guilty, you know, but I'm not, I don't beat myself up about it all day. And I just jump right back. I'm like, okay, well, let's get right back to it. You know, I'm going to hit it up again, you know, right tomorrow or today even, you know what I mean? Yeah.

and I'm right back into my routine and right after that first workout or whatever, I'm feeling great again. Yeah, I like that point about having these systems in place and then

Going back to knowing your why, I think sometimes it's also important to just get up and do the thing you know you need to do. And then you might figure out the why along the way. Or it might be more clear. - Well then you won't feel as lost because you know what you need to do. It's when you don't know what you need to do or when you think you can't do those things, that's when you feel completely lost. And I've been there.

And I didn't have those systems in place because I never made that decision. I never fully convinced myself I was going to do those things. I was almost lying to myself. Like, yeah, everyone wants to lose weight. Everyone wants a nice six pack. Everyone wants these things. But how many people actually go get it? It's only the people that make the decision to do it. And that's it. That's the only thing separating the people who don't and the people who do is that decision. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's...

It's like you're falling in love with the idea of the outcome rather than, you know, enjoying the

you know, just the, the work that it takes, the action, the daily action that, that it takes to get there. And so once you build that system, you kind of, you know, you enjoy those daily actions, right. And you're not falling in love with the idea of the outcome, right. Or that, and I think media and all that, you know, photos of Joseph's abs and stuff like that, it doesn't help, you know, it's like, it makes us fall in love with those ideas. I think the other thing is that, um, there's the irony from, from your story, right. Um, that,

that there's the irony of judging ourselves in the moment. And so projecting that one bad decision and action and projecting that and identifying and saying, that's me. So, you know, I made that bad decision and that's who I am because I made that decision before, rather than believing in yourself, you use the word belief and believing yourself in the long run. So we kind of overthink things, but the, I guess the, um,

You know, like the encouraging aspect is that even, you know, people like Joseph who are among, you know, like that top 1% of fitness, like they go through some of these doubts. And if we don't like, you know, succumb to these doubts and we just sort of fall in love with the action of just doing something healthy, we're going to be in a lot of trouble.

eventually it'll take care of itself. You know? And the one thing that has struck me about Joseph, it's interesting. Um, I get fallen in love with the outcome and the results sometimes. Right. So anytime he goes to a race, I'm like, what'd you get? What'd you get? What'd you get? Right. And, and like, how fast do you run and all this stuff. Right. And I have these small milestones, but like he literally like runs fast, climbs fast, all this stuff. He doesn't even track his results that often.

That's the most incredible thing is that people who are really good at something, who achieve amazing results, sometimes they don't fall in love with the actual numerical result. Well, he probably just loves the process. He loves the process. Yeah, just to be fair, I do think...

Just this past weekend, actually yesterday, I went to this 30-kilometer trail race in Mogansan near Shanghai and went with a group of my fifth-hand friends. And it's funny, like...

I do agree with Eric. Maybe I don't care that much about the results, but then when you've trained a lot and you've prepared a lot, and then as you're racing, you know, you're in like the top 10, top five, it definitely gets you more competitive. Like if you hear some footsteps in the back, you're like, Oh, I got, I got to go like,

They're not my footsteps. Yeah. So it's the reality is it's like being competitive or caring about the result is it's like, it's very human. Like you, you, you care about that stuff, right? Like that's why we have like first place, second place, third place. But just keep like constantly reminding yourself, like those things should be sort of a motivation to push you to go harder and

But at the end of the day, it's funny. It's like no matter what race or whatever you're competing in, you're just competing in that pool. There's always going to be someone better. I mean, it sounds really cliche, but it's like literally there's always going to be someone better than you in something that you think you're really good at. So tumbling. There is an irony to this. We were in a race a couple of weeks ago.

And it was in Hangzhou. And so it was one of the Spartan races, right? And so if you're in the top five, so first of all, there's a couple of different divisions. You can be in the age group or you can just like, you know, if it's your first time, you go in the open division. And then there's the elite division, which is like, you know, people that are kind of, you know, doing this regularly, right? And they're competitive, right?

And so, you know, Joseph, of course, he was in the elite division. If you're in the top five, you know, you win money. There's prize money, right? And, you know, it's not, you know, a couple thousand, you know, it'll at least cover some of your travel expenses, right? And, you know, of course, like Joseph went out there, he was quite strong. There are obstacles. So if you miss an obstacle, then you got to do like burpees and this and that, right? Top five in the money,

He finished sixth, right? So then he was pissed. He's like, fuck. He's like, I gotta push myself a little bit harder, right? Well, it's useful to be competitive, right? Like, if you weren't competitive, you would never really progress. Yes. Right? It's useful because it pushes yourself. It's only when you get, like, ultra competitive that maybe it becomes like, okay, well...

- It's detrimental. - Well, it depends because if this becomes your career, then you have to be ultra competitive. Like if you want to be in the NBA, you want to be Michael Jordan, you gotta be that assassin. You have to be psycho like that, right? But for us everyday people,

Competition is good in doses because it keeps you wanting to improve yourself. That's the only thing really that keeps you wanting to improve yourself at the end of the day. There's that balance. But of course, a lot of it is just having fun. Because if you get to the point where the competition makes you dread things and the fear of failure that we talked about in one of our previous episodes, then it's not fun anymore. So there's got to be this balance where you use...

you know the rankings or use the competition to kind of benchmark yourself just kind of understand like where you are on the kind of in the you're you're trending so to speak but you also have to just be fun and have fun in the moment i think that's you know in a way like if if joseph just focus on the results he actually might not do uh you know as as well yeah yeah i think um

Yeah, I was just thinking, I do agree with Justin's point around you do like having a strong sense of self-awareness, being one of those people that are into like nonfiction, self-development books, like everything like that, you need to be able to sort of channel that for like something better versus something that like makes you feel like you're less than other people. So yeah.

So, yeah, so I totally agree with you. Like, being competitive has that definitely a healthy benefit. Yeah. Even for just, like, normal people, like, you know, non-professional athletes like ourselves, right? So how do you, I'm curious, like, how do you prepare for, you know, what do you do, like, the night before a race? Like, in terms of your sleep, like, your routine, you know, what does that look like? Don't share a room with Eric? No. Yeah, I wouldn't anyway. Wear earplugs? No.

Um, yeah, I think, I think a lot of it comes with experience. I think after you've done a few races, you kind of have an idea of what the routine should be like. So, uh, make sure you get, I know some of these people we race with, they get like really excited and anxious and they don't actually get much sleep the night before. Are you calling someone out? Cause like, are you calling someone out? It's our mutual friend, but yeah, we're still trying to get on the show. Yeah. Calling you Han Lin. Yeah. Um,

So, yeah, I think it comes with race experience. Just knowing that you need to get a good night's rest. I typically like to bring my own breakfast because a lot of these races start super early. And so the place you're staying at might not have breakfast until later. So I just usually bring oatmeal, something simple. So is it more carbs? Do you carb load or what? Yeah, like...

It's funny though. It's like usually the night before at dinner, we're just like, oh, we got a carb load. And it's like people basically, it's an excuse to like, it's an excuse to eat pasta. It's an excuse to pig out. I feel like it's like how much carbs do you actually need? We had like fucking shit loads of tater tots last time. No.

It's true. I think the carb load is a fun... Like eating a whole pizza. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's... I think, yeah, it's... You probably need to eat a little bit more carbs, but I don't think you need to eat like three portions of tater tots probably. But so your breakfast is just a bowl of oatmeal? Yeah, I just usually... I just pack like some oatmeal because, you know, like... And then, yeah, hot water added to their...

and then I usually, I'm big on coffee. I like, I like to bring my own coffee and then giving your, yourself enough time in the morning to just have your breakfast. Like your routine shouldn't really actually change that much from your normal day to day routine. Um, have enough sleep, have breakfast. Um, I like coffee, so I'll have coffee and then, and then, um,

and then you go, right? So what do you... I've never ran a marathon. I wouldn't know what the first thing to prepare if you told me to pack for a marathon tomorrow. What do you need for a marathon? What are some insider things that only a marathon runner would know to pack? And just as a caveat, the...

some of the races Joseph does, like the intensity is marathon level. And they might take even longer, but they're not strictly a marathon in the sense, right? Cause there's like trail runs that are like 30 K or even longer. Or there are like Spartan races that are like 20 something K or even shorter ones that have lots of obstacles. So the time commitment is like, but, but the altitude is very different. Like I think,

maybe you can share a little bit about like the, this last race you did, right? Cause it's not a, it's not a road race. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, recently I've been more into trail running. So trail running, the biggest difference with that with marathons is that there's elevation gain. So you're out in nature, climbing mountains up and down. So I know friends who have never run, run a marathon before, and they're really into trail running. Um,

And the beauty of trail running is that you get to be outside in nature. It's a different ballgame in terms of

you're not going to be able to run the entire time because when you're going like, you know, 45 degree incline, you can't really run. And so... And there's like rocks, so you have to be careful where you step and everything like that. Exactly. Whereas a marathon, like the Shenyang Marathon, I know it's coming up in a couple weeks. Like that's flat, right? Shenyang is very flat. You're just going to be constantly going at the same pace. Are you running in that? I am not. No.

not the Shanghai Marathon this year. Whereas a trail run, you don't really know what time you'll get because there's incline, decline. - So many variables. - Yeah, exactly. So I guess in terms of what you want to prepare and pack, I think, again, it kind of goes back to after you have, there's a standard list that they'll tell you for these trail runs, especially for the longer ones, you have to bring a water bag.

You have to bring, sometimes they ask you to bring an emergency blanket, which is a really small foldable thing just in case it gets really cold or hot. They tell you to bring like an energy gel. So there's a standard list. But a lot of times the list is for the most conservative type of sort of demographic, especially in China. There's a lot of people who actually sign up just so they can share on their moments or take a photo. So like for those people. Really?

Yeah, it's surprising, right? I'm not surprised about that one bit. I'm sure there's a bunch of people who just sign up just so they can show their friends and brag like, oh, I'm joining a marathon. But they're not about that life. I do that. Does that frustrate? Like you real athletes, like you real marathon runners and trail runners who take this sport seriously. Yeah.

are passionate about it. Like, do you, do you like, do you get frustrated by those people who are just joining just to, yeah, I think seem like they're fucking. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, um, I can share a funny, I think it's kind of funny. So yesterday during the race, like I was, it was a 33 kilometer race. I was about two kilometers from finishing. We're passing by, uh,

one of the rest stations. And then, um, so the race had like a 72 kilometer option, a 33 kilometer and then eight kilometer. I did the 33 and then, um, they paste, uh,

the start times really well just like spread them out so like the eight kilometers we pass by at the end and then someone like there's a group of people just enjoying like um like instant noodles at the last station it's more of like a just a it's like a just a fun activity before we get and one of the girls like oh do you mind taking a photo for me as i was running i was like what

like i was like i actually reacted very badly i was a reflection on my behalf i was like it's like i was like i'm racing i can't i can't stop right now what the fuck you're finishing a marathon you're at the home stretch of a race and she's like asking you to take like but she had no yeah so she had no i don't think she had context of like maybe that was during the 33k and that i was like in the top 10 at that point in time and so she asked me it's like okay you take a flight i was like

I was like, no, I'm racing right now. So I was actually like kind of like... Well, why even bother replying to her? Yeah, the better response would have just been, oh, it's like, I can't. Don't even reply to her. We need to have another episode about how kind Joseph is. Yeah, that was the earlier question you asked. I was going to go into that. Joseph is like probably one of the nicest guys that I know. Yeah. However...

That's why I'm always mind-blowing that he's friends with you. Well, however, the reason is that there's a Hulk side to him too. There is a Hulk side. We can quickly cover this. So like, I think...

Just caveating that I think everyone's flawed individuals. What's your Hulk side? What's your Hulk side, Yosef? Yeah, exactly. But maybe it's my tone. Maybe it's my demeanor. But people often assume that I used to always get the compliments. Like, oh, you're a really nice guy. And I used to kind of hate that.

like classification that label because I just one I felt it's kind of generic nice guys finish last it's kind of generic yeah but then now I literally just tell them it's like I have like a mean streak I'm actually I oh yeah yeah so I just like saying that because then it's like there's no surprises and that's the reality

You know, we work together. So, you know, sometimes when I'm a little, when I kind of go overboard with my feedback. Yeah. Like the funny thing is like, I don't, I don't actually, for me, it's like, I have a stronger self-awareness of it now that I don't, I don't actually feel that ashamed of it. I'm, I'm, I feel like I know when it, when it happens or why it happens. And then,

And I just like just saying that now. It's like, so this is a podcast. So everyone knows that they know I'm not just a nice guy. There have been some stories. So for all of you guys who live, shop or eat near Ulamuchilu. Anyways, if there's a raging, crazy, aggressive motherfucker. Watch out for Joseph. Watch out for Joseph. He'll get you. He'll get you. Ulamuchilu. Yeah. So, yeah. So Joseph, what? So where? Okay. Going back to the fitness thing. Yeah. Like, um,

Where do you think, where do you see fitness going now? You know, what do you see as the future of fitness in general or even as it pertains to China and Shanghai? Like, where do you see that industry going? Where do you see that community? How do you see that community evolving from your perspective? Yeah, I think one thing I'm really inspired from one of the leaders that the company we work at that focus on fitness.

fitness and health is the concept of as long as you're moving like whatever it is that you're doing like whether it's literally like walking or doing hit or doing whatever your choice of moving looks like that's that's great so i think that should just be the the baseline um obviously like fifth fam

Some people graduate from FFM because they decide they want to more specialize in maybe triathlons or running, which is, it was just great. Like I think, um,

the beauty of fifth M is that it's very accessible. So it's a starting point. And some people continue to go because the reality is like whatever workout you go to, you yourself can make it much harder versus like, you can, you can take it, you can take it easy. Like if you're doing a yoga pose, if you actually need a full extent of the yoga pose is much harder than just being able to put a warrior pose and looking like you're doing it. But the reality is like you yourself determines how hard that poses. So yeah,

I think, um, um, yeah, no matter what workout you choose, I think whatever you're interested in that gets you moving, I think it's great where I think fitness is going overall. And just in general, I, you know, like, like, I feel like WeChat and social media is both like good and bad. I'm still, still trying to find, this is slightly a tangent, but like, I think, um,

People are so connected these days with their devices. And I think sharing their accomplishments, like whether it's like completing a race or doing whatever, I think it can motivate them because it kind of showcases to other people around them, like what they've done. And it probably inspires other people. But at the same time, it's like making sure you, it's not, you don't do it for just that reason. So maybe, yeah,

- Yeah, so I don't know, like finding a balance somewhere. Like, 'cause China is so connected on WeChat, so like maybe, ideally I would like to see it come to a point where people are sharing truly to just inspire other people and to improve themselves. - Yeah, well, it feels to me like right now is only the beginning. I'm talking in China, right? Like only the beginning of like the real fitness boom.

And the real fitness, like kind of revolution and awareness and the size of the community here. I think it's just really in its infancy right now. There's so much room for growth. Like most of the locals still don't really work out. They don't have that mindset. They don't have that...

they're not really like educated on in terms of like the fitness and health benefits. And it's not just, it's just not part of their lifestyle as much. So I feel like it's only in its infancy now. And I think like organizations like FitFam are awesome because like you said, they're so accessible because they're free and it's a really supportive community. It's a great workout from what I hear. Yeah.

But I think it's only the beginning. I think there's going to be other things like Fit Fam that are going to be popping up left and right. Yeah.

We already see gyms, all these different kinds of gyms now popping up. There's all these different sports that are related to fitness, like combat sports. And it's just really becoming a lot more commercial here now, as opposed to before, it was really only for the expats. But now it's just really growing. And I'm excited to see where it's headed. And I think people like you...

are kind of leaders in that community in terms of like what you're saying, the presence on social media, uh, talking to people, engaging in people, um, people you've helped like Eric, um,

and and i i think that's just really exciting like i think it's it's a really great thing and to have someone like you yeah um like kind of lead those things and be involved in those things i think really means a lot because you're not just like talking about it and you're just not like a normal trainer like you're living that life you know i'm saying so i think it's awesome i think it's pretty cool what's next for you in terms of races though

Yeah, if I can just add to that point around sort of the fitness evolution. I think maybe just highlighting that we can embrace the superficial aspects of it, right? It's like whatever, a picture of my six abs on six pack or eight pack on WeChat moments, but embracing that and then

Really just like it will evolve right so like embracing that people like to be recognized for their progress even if it's just superficial and then maybe eventually it'll become more like it's like a deeper meaning or value to them I think I think just accepting for what people what gets people going is

It's just the validation. But then eventually maybe you'll get to a point where it's more like a deeper sort of reason for doing it. I think that's something that I hope, at least for myself, I can continue to share that part of my journey with other people. In terms of races, I have, let's see, Eric and I actually signed up for

a, um, another Spartan race. Like it's, it's called a beast. It's, um, it's 21 kilometers and this will be in Suzhou, uh, in December. And, uh, yeah, so that one should be good. I think it's, uh, it's gonna be cold. No, it's gonna be pretty cold. That's, that is the, that is the extra element that we haven't experienced quite yet this year yet. So it'll be cold. Um, but I, I think it'll be a good experience. How many obstacles on this one? I think 30, 30 obstacles. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, that would be good. Like not too far from Shanghai and it'll be Eric's first elite beast. Oh, you're going to do the elite Eric. Oh, I'm just trying to finish in the same calendar day. Like I'm just trying to make sure it's not a two day event for me. You know, Eric's sandbagging. He's probably going to get like first in his age group. No, I only, how, how, how mad would you be if he beat you? Honestly, honestly, as a point of reference, he finished one,

one place off the podium. I just finished in the top half in our last race. Top half. No, but the fact that you're even doing it, I mean, it's awesome. Oh, yeah. It's huge progress. How much of that do you owe to Joseph, like, in his influence on you? 50% at least. 50%? At least. And that's a big, big 50% coming from someone who never...

I never did any kind of workout. I'm not the average Joe. I'm the below average Joe. Not to be cliche, though. It's actually very inspiring for myself personally to be able to see the impact that you have on other people. It's just as rewarding, actually. So, yeah. And we didn't even get to sleep and meditation and yoga and all that stuff. We'll have to bring Joseph back for all that stuff. I don't think I've mastered it.

either of those yet but we can talk about it though all right let's wrap it up on this because i just it's just a fun question yeah um for a trail run yeah um if besides the standard things of things you need to bring oh yeah what is one thing you cannot live without on a trail run or a marathon whatever that yeah that it's like something you have to have yeah you have to prepare and bring that is not on the standard list of things

Okay, so this one won't be that surprising, but I can share my personal experience. So like I ran my first marathon. Yeah, exactly. It's like when you're hurting. When I did my first marathon in 2010 in Los Angeles, LA Marathon, and then I trained with this one friend. Originally, he was like,

Oh, let's just do the 10 KM. And I was like, Oh, if we're going to be training, we might as well do the full marathon. Of course it's like a huge difference. Um, sometimes it's like ignorance is bliss or you just do it. And then as part of that process, we learned about this whole minimalist idea of like minimalist running. Like people used to run barefoot to hunt animals. You guys might've heard this. I read the book like born to run. And, um,

So I got really into the minimalist ideas like shoes with like minimal heel support. The heel strike is sort of towards the front of your foot rather than landing on your heel. And so I've really tried to cultivate that minimalist mindset. So when I ran my first trail race, I did this.

a i ran in my like new balance like minimalist shoes and the slippers and the philippines it pretty much like yeah slippers so it feels like you're running on bare feet almost yeah what yeah exactly

And so, but so I ran my first trail run earlier this year. It was like a 47 kilometer one in the Philippines and beautiful scenery, a lot of pine trees, therefore a lot of like pine needles on the ground with a lot of elevation cane. And so I was literally like slipping and sliding down the, down the hill and like getting like major cramps, like even like just a quarter in, whereas like people are just flying down a hill. And so I think,

At the end of the day, you got to make sure you have the right shoes. And so it's not even like most of the other stuff is like mostly accessories, like, oh, like how tight your pants are or, you know,

Some of the other stuff are important. I think like salt tablets and pills are important for longer races. It really does help with cramps. - Oh, that helps with cramps? Salt tablets? - Yeah, like having salt, yeah. Salt tablets. I didn't really take that before, but I would definitely carry some of those with you for longer races. - Wait, how does that work though? Because I would think salt would dehydrate you more and by being dehydrated, you would cramp up even more, no?

Yeah, this is where... No, no, no. I was going to say this is where a lot... My way of living...

so far has been through experience and what people, I just kind of like learn from experience. Like once I take the salt tablets, it helps. I think the scientific, biological, like scientific reason is there's definitely something with the Eric. Yeah. I don't know the biological reason during the race, there's water stations, right? So you can constantly hydrate. It's, you get to a certain point where your body loses all the electrolytes and you know, some of these longer races. So, so like that salt tablets, um,

you know, compensate for that. Yeah. So like take them before you feel the cramps coming on. Like maybe once every hour you take one tablet. Um, but I was going to say the most important thing, hands down is, um, having the right shoes for these trail races because there are a lot of like up and down. So are you still wearing those like new balance, like barefoot shoes? Like, are you like, not anymore anymore? No, I finally upgraded recently, uh,

So yeah, just having shoes that have traction on the bottom where it gives you more support when you're going down here uphill and makes a huge difference.

I would think because when you're running barefoot, you're using a lot more small muscles that you wouldn't normally use in normal shoes that have support. Right. Like you're using from your foot, from your calf to everything. You're activating all these other muscles that normally aren't activated. Yeah.

So all of a sudden when you're running on barefoot, then it's like you get a lot more tired, you cramp up, everything. You're absolutely right. And I think our – so we share a physiotherapist who's amazing. We'll give a shout-out to Oni. She listens to the show, and we're trying to get her on the show. But absolutely, if you train a long time without the right equipment –

you'll get injured, you know, and you're absolutely right. Like all the little muscles in your foot, like, you know, and one run's not going to make a difference, but over time it does make a difference. So, you know, understanding like how you run and like the, you know, if you're over pronating, under pronating, they sound like kind of like complex terms, but like when you really run, you'll, you'll understand like what type of run you're doing.

runner you are and you have to get the right kind of shoe and and so like in the beginning it's really daunting and you think it's really technical and you think it's just like people trying to market you but over time you realize that your foot your body needs support because you're going through processes that you don't normally go through right and so to optimize for some of that and to also be able to sustain that you need to write have the right equipment so i think

Um, Oni will be very happy that Joseph finally took her advice after like 20 physiotherapy sessions. Like he's a little bit hardheaded. Yeah. Um, but, but you, uh, you did well, right? You finished in the top 10 in a, in a national race. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I was just going to say, Ani, so like with a lot of things, it's like Ani was saying, if you really want to wear barefoot shoes, you can wear it on other days because it does actually help you work out certain muscles that you don't usually work out if you have shoes that with a lot of heel support. So it's sort of one of those things where like you should optimize for whatever setting you're in and it doesn't have to be one way. And I think

sometimes we're so stuck on like having very strong values with certain thing and you apply it to like all of your life but the reality is like sometimes you just have to adjust a little bit so like I want to be minimalist but it doesn't necessarily make sense all the time yeah yeah

Like, so yeah, people are like purists where they have like, I'm a purist. I'm only going to run on barefoot no matter what. And it's like, they're so caught up on that principle instead of learning to adapt and adjust and to optimize for different situations. Or at least trying it and then deciding, okay, like if it's a smart decision or not. That's right. All right. Well, Joseph, that was a really great conversation. Thank you again for coming on the show. Really enjoyed having you here.

Cheers. And thanks for helping us finish this bottle. We've got too many bottles lying around. Yeah, we've been trying to finish this bottle for a while. It's finished now. It's a good bottle. And I think for normal people, you don't have to necessarily be on Joseph's level, but...

For normal people, I think really one of the things I took away is you just really got to start somewhere. It doesn't matter where you start. Just start somewhere. Like what you said, like FitFam was like a launching platform for everybody. And it depends on where you start. Like even just staying active and just going for a walk or whatever. Just take that first step.

be systematically incremental about it and progressing. But the starting point really doesn't matter. You don't have to go from zero to 100 right away. Just go from zero to one and work your way there. But the important thing is to make those steps, to take those steps, and to truly make that decision for yourself. Don't lie to yourself. If you fuck up, I fucked up so many fucking times.

But just keep going, man, because it's never too late. And you have to find that discipline somewhere if you want to improve and get your shit together. So with that being said, thank you, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you again, Joseph, for being on the show. You're welcome back anytime. And it was a pleasure. Thank you.

Right on. Thanks, guys. Listeners, if you have any ideas or suggestions on future topics or even guests, feel free to write us. What's the address, Justin? Our email address is thehonestdrink at gmail.com. That's thehonestdrink, one word, at gmail.com. Nice. You've been waiting to do that. I just set you up. Yeah, you just put up. I spiked it down. All right.

Thanks, guys. See you next time. Peace. Peace. Bye, guys.