Saka shines as Arsenal beat Southampton | Man City's stumbling victory against Fulham | Vicky's exclusive interview with Fabian Hurzeler
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Hi there and welcome along to the Sunday Supplement podcast with me, Vicky Gommersall, and the assistant editor of The Mirror, Darren Lewis. Joining us this week is the football reporter for The Telegraph, Sam Dean. Welcome along to you both. So, Sam, let's start with Arsenal because you were there, weren't you? And I think you tweeted after the match that it was unexpectedly stressful. I think you were talking about Arsenal, weren't you, there, in terms of their performance and what they had to do?

What got them over the line then, in your opinion? Well, I think the main thing that got them over the line was Bukayo Saka. Yes. I think his performance, especially when Arsenal went 1-0 down, completely against a run of play. They'd been totally dominant and then...

Southampton scored out of nowhere. It was as if Saka decided almost on his own that, "No, I'm not going to stand for this. "I'm going to take the ball and I'm going to go again and again and again "and create chances, have shots on goal." And his second-half performance was genuinely outstanding. And for me, it's really interesting having sort of covered Arsenal and watched Saka emerge from the academy and become a first-team player. And he was always described as sort of the star boy and he was a very polite young man and had this sort of baby-face features and he was very sort of...

sort of endearing and sort of likeable in that sense. And I feel like this summer he's come back from the Euros, having had back-to-back second-place finishes in the Premier League, lost in the Euros final with England. And I think he's decided, and he said this himself, that he has this real hunger to go that one extra yard this season and to go further. And it looks to me like he's playing with a sort of real...

grit and determination. There's kind of a snarl there as well, like against Spurs, for example, when there was a bit of a kerfuffle. He was the first in throwing his arm around. The tackle at Villar he did when he was roaring to the crowd afterwards, like he's not the boy anymore. He's not the polite, young, quiet boy. He's absolutely a man and a leader for this team. And I think that was yesterday perhaps the best demonstration of that yet.

Yeah, I mean, his stats are brilliant. A goal, two assists for that game. He's stepped up even more with, obviously, the captain, Martin Odegaard, injured. He's got seven assists, which is more than any other player, I was looking at this, than in the top five leagues so far this season. He's extraordinary at the moment, isn't he? And this is exactly what Arsenal need in order to make a really good challenge for the title.

Completely. And that Odegaard point is really interesting because Odegaard's always played on the right-hand side of the midfield next to Saka. And that relationship they have has been fundamental to all of Arsenal's success and improvement over the past couple of years. So when Odegaard got injured, there was quite a lot of concern, I think, about what that would mean for Saka. And Saka himself said that...

how much he loves playing with Odegaard and that he knew that would be a challenge. But the way that he's responded individually, and Arsenal as a team, they've changed the way they play now. Kai Havertz is in different positions, but Saka's been as good as he has been at any point. I've got a question for you. Do you think it's time for us to stop? Saka needs a rest. He's been played so much, club, country. I don't have any issue, obviously, with Arsenal, because obviously we know, as you've been saying, how important he is to the team.

But I don't think we need to see him as often as we do with England, especially in the friendly games and meaningless games where we know what he can do on the right of that attack. Why are we not seeing more of, say, a Jared Bowen, for example, who is one of the most underrated players in the country? Why is it that we are... I would imagine a lot of Arsenal fans are anxious about the miles on the clock for a... He's still a young man. Yeah.

Would you agree? Yeah, I think your question almost came straight out of the mouth of Mikel Arteta there. I think he wouldn't say it publicly, but privately I'm sure he agreed. Mikel did play him against Bolton in the Carabao Cup as well. Didn't need to play him in that match either, did he? What does that tell you about him, though? That he kind of, you know, he is...

star man. But we know how good he is, that's my point. Don't we want to save him given how good and important he is to the team and to England? So what Arteta always says about this is that if you look at the best players in the world, the very top players over the past 15 years, they've always played 50, 60 games a season. That ability to play, play, play, play, play, that durability, that resilience,

is what you need in Mikel Arteta's mind to be a top player. And that's what he challenged Saka to do, to say if you're going to be a top player, and he just said it yesterday, if you want to be a world-class player, go out and do it every week. That's what the best players do. That's what Messi does, what Ronaldo does, what Haaland's now doing for Man City. Go and do it every week.

And yes, the England point, totally agree. We know Saka's great. Lee Carlsson knows that. In a friendly or an AFC League game, it doesn't need to be Saka playing on the right wing for 90 minutes, which happened, I think, in both games during the previous international break.

For Arsenal, I totally see it. I see why he plays every week. They're saying, you're the leader, you're 23, you're in good shape, you're fit, you're ready to go, play, win us the game. And in recent games, he's been subbed off with 20 minutes to go because they've been dominant. So, you know, go win the game in the first hour, then you get a break afterwards. That would be Arsenal's view. That's our policy here, right? Absolutely.

Look, it's a remarkable record, as I said, the stats speak for themselves. But in terms of the whole team, Darren, you know, Mikel Arteta came out afterwards and said, you know, they've got this... This team finds a way, I think was his words. They've got this never-say-die attitude. It's interesting, we'll talk about Pep in a minute, but...

Arteta comes out having gone behind and he's still happy, whereas Pep was furious that the performance wasn't good enough for him. Whereas Arteta comes out all smiles and, you know, back in love with his team. I do have a little theory around yesterday. I mean, I do absolutely accept and endorse everything you've said about Saka, but I wonder if the eulogising over Saka kind of masked a little bit of...

attention away from what was quite a laborious first 45 minutes for Arsenal. They struggled a bit and obviously Southampton took the lead and were nowhere near the pushovers everybody expected them to be. I would imagine a few people were tripping. Captain in Havertz or Saka yesterday for hat-tricks against a side that liked to play out from the back and looked to be there for the taking.

But that said, I think you're right about the durability of the side. He's built from the back. I love Calafiori. I think Calafiori is going to be one of the great European players. He's combative, he's defensively aware, he supplements attacks, he's got terrific vision.

he's just a superb acquisition for Arsenal and I think he embodies everything about Arsenal right now with the way that he goes about his business. And the good teams find a way to win. When we're writing match reports and we're assessing the capabilities of teams to go right to the very top, that's what we always say about them, about City, about Liverpool. That's what Arsenal have right now.

I'm going to personalize this, but I remember watching Liverpool in the season we won the title and I'd say as a fan, hold my hands up. But I remember when we went behind, I never worried because we were in such good form that you kind of knew the game was already won. And that's how I feel sometimes watching Arsenal at the moment. You think they're just capable of just turning everything around again, like City, and they found themselves also behind. Do you feel that if they're to win the title,

they're going to need more performances like we saw from Kovacic yesterday, replacing Rodri at the moment in terms of the fact that he's not there. Kovacic had a really great game for them, didn't he? It's interesting because obviously he scored two goals and made the difference in that sense, but also from what I've seen in the highlights and

and the way the game went, City were still very vulnerable. It looked like to counter attacks, there was a lot of opportunities for Fulham, especially Adama Traore. On another day, he played that game twice and Fulham could have won that. Adama Traore was brilliant, wasn't he? He had so many chances. Until he got to the penalty box, which sadly is often the case with Adama. He's such a great player to watch, but he's never been the most reliable finisher in that final moment. But I still worry for City...

and that vulnerability element, especially in midfield. And that's what Rodri is so good at, being in the position to stop those counterattacks. And we see the goals that Kovacic scored, and that's fantastic. And that is replacing Rodri in the best, most spectacular way possible on the ball. But off it, I think we still need to see what kind of solutions Guardiola will come up with to replace Rodri, because there is no player like Rodri in that squad. And Kovacic is a fantastic player and one of the top midfielders in Europe, but he's not a Rodri type.

And I do wonder still how vulnerable they might be. And I think that Fulham game showed those vulnerabilities. Yes, interesting. We don't see it, I don't think, but after the game, Pep goes up to Adama Traore and he's saying... I'm not quite sure why. Actually, he whacks lyrical about Adama Traore, so you feel like saying, Fulham, beware. You don't know whether he's got his eyes on him. What are the males saying about this game? I want to show you this. This is Jack Gawne from the Mail on Sunday. Love the...

because it sums up what happened yesterday and through it all. It is now 50 games undefeated at the Etihad's going back to November 2022 for Manchester City. I know Sam has issues with that stat, but we'll get to that in a bit. Do you?

Do you? But Jack Gould's piece sums up yesterday. And I want to read you his intro because I like it. It says, there's always at least one, always a game in November when Manchester City, around about October, November, when Manchester City laced their boots on the wrong feet. This felt like most of Pep Guardiola's players tied theirs down.

together and he does make that point that it comes around about now where they've been done by walls by Brentford Leicester remember 5-2 against Leicester and everyone said oh my goodness is this the beginning of the end but this is normally the first circuit like yeah hang on we get to January and then they just gallop on home don't they absolutely yes and I think that's the big thing with

Manchester City and it was quite ironic that we were talking about the problems for which Guardiola has to find a solution while these team are slamming home bangers. I think that's what it is. Their scoring capability has never left them. They've always been outstanding even when Haaland doesn't score goals

but it's about players stepping up in the middle of the park. And as we were saying before, Saka stepped up yesterday, Kovacic stepped up yesterday, as well as his first Premier League brace. And the way he took those, you would imagine there are more in the chamber for him as well. I did dip my toe into social media, and dare I say it, there were some that said...

were semi not quite but semi questioning pep's choice on rico lewis against adama triori so they were kind of questioning whether he'd got that wrong what do you think well triori had his chances and i think fulham would quite happily say well their game plan works out as they intended i think marcus said that after the game they played a really good match and in terms of

who who executed their match plan better it's probably fulham but that's the thing as darren says city's capacity to score on goals is just unquestioned and they can come under pressure they can they can give away four or five clear chances but if you don't take them all take them all yeah they're going to put you away at the other end yeah and they did okay let's talk about liverpool then because of course plenty expected them to struggle really after well klopp's successor to struggle but on a slot

is just doing brilliantly. He's got a great stat. As a Liverpool manager, he's winning as many as nine of his first ten games in charge of the club. So he's the first Liverpool manager to have done that. Do you feel he's surpassed all expectations at the moment, Slott? Well, it's interesting because...

In terms of results, they've got the results that people expected from each individual game because their fixtures have been quite kind. And I think Slott himself has made that point too, which is, I think, to his credit, that they've not had a particularly difficult start to the season. And I think I saw a number...

there's not one of their opponents currently in the top nine of the Premier League that they've played. So they have had an easy run. So in each game, if you looked at it and thought, well, Liverpool should win that, should win that, should win that. Apart from the Forest game, they have done that in each game. But the style with which they're playing, the way the team's clearly evolving while still having traces of Klopp's football too. And players like Ryan Gravenberch, who people weren't expecting to be dominating the midfield at

in a number six position, not at all. Liverpool tried to sign someone, as we know, for that role, and he's come in and done so well. I think that's testament to good coaching and a sign of that slot's really settled in well. I have to just punctuate that, and it's not really disagreeing with what you're saying, but it kind of is. LAUGHTER

When people turn around and say they've had an easy run, they lost to Nottingham Forest. Arsenal struggled yesterday against Southampton. City struggled at home against Fulham. This perception, and it obviously hasn't come from yourself, you're quoting that stat, and I saw it as well. But

But, you know, people say, oh, well, it's been easy. You haven't played anyone in the top ten. But the fact is the Premier League is not an easy league. It's the most competitive league in the world. And there is always a Nottingham Forest waiting to come along to basically punch you in the face when you least expect it. Don't do that at home, honestly. And I just think that...

It kind of undermines what slot has done so far because I think he's done really really well to come in Succeed a guy that wasn't just popular on Merseyside, but was popular across England across Europe He was is such a charismatic effervescent personality and slot unassuming

But very assiduous and has come in and made the job his own already to an extent to the point where we're not even talking about Klopp anymore. We're talking about slot. This is slots team and he's done superbly. Well, yeah interesting you say if they haven't met, you know teams in the top 10 They've got Chelsea and then Arsenal straight after the international break. So be interesting to see what happens there They do have the best defense in English football right now. They've only conceded two goals but Allison

could be out for a number of weeks. He's got a hamstring injury. I mean, this is not great news, you'd have to say, for Slott at all. It's not, but it's a testament to their recruitment that Kweevy Kelleher is very capable and has stood in for him before, helped them to win silverware standing in for him before.

um so from that point of view they'll have confidence in him and keller did well when he came off yesterday but of course becker alice becker is one of the best goalkeepers in world football and he will be a big miss again we're in the first half of the season you would imagine how long are we thinking about him coming back well they van dyke said it didn't look good which obviously van dyke's not a physio and then slot said weeks which

which really could mean months as well as anything. At this point, we don't know, but he had a hamstring issue a few weeks ago and it seems to be a recurrence, although we don't know yet quite how severe. And that is sadly a common thing with hamstrings, that you get it once and then you get it again. But the point about Kelleher, and obviously Jarosz came in yesterday and did very well with Kelleher ill.

But Kelleher has actually played quite a lot of football in the past couple of seasons, more than most backups at a top club would, because Alistair's had these injury issues. So of all the top clubs, I kind of feel like Liverpool are the most used to losing their number one goalkeeper. So perhaps that will help them. But still, obviously, he's the best in the Premier League, so it's going to be a loss for sure. Right, let's get more on Manchester United. They are dominating the back pages, aren't they, at the moment? I mean, it's an exclusive, I think, in your own paper, Mira. What are they saying?

Well, we'll start with this because, yeah, you're right, exclusive by Simon Mullock and a really important one as well because the widely held belief has been that Ruud van Nistelrooy would be the man to step up and succeed Eric Ten Haag if indeed United do decide to part company with him. But Simon has it on very good authority that Ruud van Nistelrooy is not interested in, as you can see from the subject stabbing,

TENHAG IN THE BACK BECAUSE THERE IS A BELIEF, AND I'M USING MY WORDS VERY CAREFULLY HERE, THAT THAT HAPPENED TO HIM WHEN HE WAS

at the hands of a number of people at his former club, PSV Eindhoven, in the spring of 2023. Van Nistelrooy quit before the final game of the season in which PSV had won the Johan Cruyff Shield and qualified for the Champions League. He doesn't want a similar scenario unfolding at Manchester United. He does want to go out on his own. They had been interested in, from Burnley, for example,

before his return to Manchester United. But as far as Ten Hag is concerned, no, don't put him in the frame to take over. Riva Nestroy, could you see that happening? I know he's saying he's not, but could you see there could be an interim charge if they indeed do say enough is enough with Eric Ten Hag? I think, as Darren said, the phrasing there is quite interesting in terms of

betrayal or stabbing in the back and I think there is actually a difference between doing that and then taking over it would it necessarily be a betrayal if ten hard got fired on Tuesday morning to then get the interim job for example would that be seen as a betrayal I'm not sure whereas if he did go behind ten hugs back and engineered his exit of course that would be seen as that and as Simon's reported that is not what Vanessa always got any interest in doing but but certainly as an interim

that would be the obvious solution, you would think. Yeah, have some continuity assault. You would have thought so, is that if United chose to move on from Ten Hag and then have a few weeks looking for a permanent candidate, that Anastoroi would be the obvious person to fill in in that interim period. As Darren said, I think when he joined United, there was a little bit of...

A few eyebrows were raised because of the fact he'd managed PSV, a big club, and coming in as an assistant coach feels like a little bit of a strange step for someone who was seemingly on the up as a manager himself. I think people probably unfairly jumped to conclusions that he was waiting for the chance to take over from Ten Hag, but we'll see how that pans out. But certainly as an interim, it would make the most sense right now. Yeah, it's just interesting that this has sort of come about as well in the...

I mean, I'm saying nothing more than that. It's just interesting that it's come about ahead of that meeting on Tuesday. You've got pressure on the decision-makers at Old Trafford. Yes. Another terrific Sam Wallace piece in The Telegraph. And the headline says a lot, really. Old Trafford needs clarity from the crowd. That word, crowd, is key because there are a lot of people that have come into the club.

Sam makes the parallels with Aston Villa that we made earlier in terms of the progress made by Emery, who came into Villa seven months after Ten Hag was appointed at Manchester United. And Villa, fresh from beating Bayern Munich, go into the game with the joint most, in fact, the most points they've had at this stage of the season for 15 years. They're flying.

Whereas at United, they've built it the other way around. Emery has huge power since Sam at Villa. At United, it's executive first, the manager very much at their mercy. And hence, obviously, Ratcliffe saying the other day, it's down to them. Martin Samuel, I've got to point out, in the Sunday Times says, no, no, no, Ratcliffe, you're the one who signs it off. It's on

on your toes but Sam says there are too many cooks he suggests there's too many cooks at Manchester United and that could be a part of the reason why there is this fudging as Jamie Carragher was saying in midweek over a decision he does refer to the brief you mentioned before that Ratcliffe and others also been at pains to point out the Omabarada Dalash where they were officially on gardening leave during the summer

from their previous clubs when Ten Hag was handed that reprieve during the summer.

But he does say that they need to make a decision. He hints that it might be a temporary solution for now and that whoever comes in might be the man before the right man, as was the case at Liverpool when they waited for Jurgen Klopp and at City where they waited for Pep Guardiola and they put everything in place to support him. But what he does say, the overriding theme of that piece is that they do need some clarity because this has dragged on for too long. Sorry, go on. I was just going to say, I think it's...

It's very popular now this model of lots of executives brought in and then the manager is sort of subservient to them and the power of the manager has been reduced.

and that's what clubs want to do generally. But if you look at the last 10 years or so at the clubs who have had the most success, that isn't actually what they've been doing. Pep Guardiola's had all the power he could ever need at Manchester City. Klopp to a lesser extent, but still, Klopp was far more than a head coach working beneath a structure. He was the big man, really. And Arteta himself at Arsenal as well. Obviously, they've not won anything, but they've progressed in a way the United would want to do. They've empowered him massively. He's not just simply the head coach individually.

as part of a wider structure. Villa, as Sam's piece mentions, Villa completely built around manager Unai Emery. And I know it almost seems old-fashioned now, and that's how it used to be, and now these days they want to have a carefully defined structure and all these executives in place in suits, but...

It's not actually worked anywhere, as far as I can see, to the same effect as actually finding the right manager and empowering him properly. Well, it's interesting you say that, because we've got some pictures to show you right now of somebody who used to have complete and utter control. Sir Alex Ferguson turning up at Villa Park, just to add a little bit more pressure on Eric Ten Hag, someone who did, of course, back in the day...

rule everything, you know, and you've said we've moved on from that, from the era of Sir Alex Ferguson, but it certainly worked for him, didn't it? Having the backing and actually being the front man for everything. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, how we have evolved and whether it's working for some clubs, certainly it

It certainly worked for Alex Ferguson going in there to Villa Park. It'll be interesting to see what he sees today. And in terms of the players, Darren, Harry Maguire, who rescued them, dare we say, against Porto during the week, what's he been saying about Eric Ten Hag on today? What would have happened on Thursday is that Harry would have scored the goal. So as a guy who has made the headlines, the guys will grab him after the match. Talk about...

the significance of that goal. And then have a separate chat with him ahead of today. And he's been very honest and very open about the fact, as you can see from the subject, that players have to step up and save

Ten Hag's job. I'll quote him verbatim, he says, "Obviously it's not good enough for sure. "We've got to do more. "As a footballer, it's easy to look around and blame other people "and blame your teammates or blame the staff for the tactics, "but you've got to look at yourself. "We're the ones on the pitch." Now, I would imagine the likes of Roy Keane and the chaps will probably look at that and with not too much favour because when you're United players, you do your talking on the pitch.

And United players, whether it's been himself, whether it's been Bruno Fernandes as captain, and Bruno is quoted on the back of the mail on Sunday today saying, listen, I'm sorry, I let you guys down. Two sendings off in a row. He was unfortunate in the first one, of course. But back to Maguire.

I think we've heard this a lot from this current squad of players. We back the manager, it's down to us, we're going to work hard and the numbers tell the story at United. They have not scored now three of their six games, it's the worst record in the Premier League as we've been saying.

They're the easiest United side to play against for quite some time. They need to put on a performance today. The only trouble is only Arsenal City and Liverpool have had more points at home than Aston Villa since Emery took charge. This is a big, big job for them today.

This week, I travel down to the south coast to speak to Fabian Hertzler to discuss his long-term plans at Brighton and his start to life in England. Fabian, really nice to meet you. It's early. Is this your time of day, your early bird that catches the worm? So, honestly,

I don't prefer to wake up early, but it's part of the job. So you have to prepare the training, you have to prepare yourself to be the best version. So you have to wake up early and go after your business, yes. So what's this time used for? Are you kind of...

Do you go to the gym? Do you just kind of come here start early six o'clock? What's the time? So I try to get more and more like in a morning routine, but it's still not there so sometimes I do sports sometimes I just prepare myself and

Sometimes I do different things, so I'm just trying to get in a morning routine. And I think it's very important to have one so that you can start good in the day and that you are prepared well for all the things that might come during the day. Yeah, it's busy, right? Yeah.

In terms of Brighton, you must have settled in now. It's a nice night out. Do you go out around here? How do you socialise? What do you do for fun? So, I like Brighton, the city. I think it's quite nice. The people are very helpful, very open-minded and very friendly.

So when I have time, of course, I also go out, taking a dinner with some friends, enjoying it a little bit. But honestly, it's very busy and I'm also fine when I can get home and relax a little bit. But I just heard that

and at the seaside they are building like some paddle courts and I'm a big fan of playing paddle and that's why I'm really looking forward that they are open so I can play a little bit. Okay that sounds good. What sort of manager are you? Are you kind of like a disciplinarian? I think you can't treat all the players the same, you have to treat them individually because they

come from different countries, different cultures. And I think you have to respect their culture and you have to get to know what's important for them, what are their values, what are their needs, what are their wishes. So on the one side, of course, I have clear principles how I want to lead my squad, how I want to lead the team. But on the other side, I think it's also important to treat them individually and not everyone the same. So you can't treat James Miller the same like

like Yanko Amite, for example, because they come from different countries, they have different experiences, they have different careers so far. That's why for me it's very important to treat the people

respectful, treat the people individually but always follow your own principles and one of my principles is to be disciplined so I'm a German. And I think Germans are a little bit known for being disciplined. I wouldn't say tough, of course I think I always want to treat the players like I want to be treated in my former times as a player and I think that's very important and

I think in some moments you need to be tough, you need to be clear and consequent in some situations. But on the other side, I think they're all human beings and they all need a little bit of love. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Do you have policies? Do you have, you know, if you're late for training, do you get fined? How does that work?

Yeah, so I think they organised it on their own. Oh, the players did? The players, because actually they really know that discipline is for me one of the most important things. You can't be disciplined on the pitch if you're not disciplined beside the pitch.

I think they recognise it early this season that I hate being late and I hate being not disciplined because in the end these are things you can influence. So being on point, being disciplined, these are things you can influence.

On these things I'm really demanding, so it's the same like on the pitch. I think the players can have a bad day, but some things they can always influence. And these things, what they can influence, they should maximise. And on these things I put pressure on them because they are very important for us and these are the basic things of a football game.

and there are also other things they can't influence on the pitch and beside the pitch and on these things i can't do pressure on them because otherwise it would be very stressful for them because they can't influence it and that's why

Some things, what they can influence, I'm really demanding on that. And one thing is being disciplined and being on point. Being in the Premier League, you've got a lot of managers that have had a lot of experience. Do you look at any and think, well, actually, even though you say you want to be yourself, do you think, well, I can take that from him? I think that's also part of my job. Yeah.

In the end, of course I'm not talking about the age, but I'm still young and I still can learn a lot of things, I still can reflect or I should reflect myself every day and of course I think it's part of the reflection also to show what other coaches did in their career and what elements they bring on the pitch, what elements they bring beside the pitch.

especially like the german coaches who did quite well in the premier league with tohel with i think they are role models also for me and i think i should use also some elements from them i should watch their career what did you like about them i think they're completely different but they

They built their own identity and their own philosophy. It's so important to have a clear philosophy how you want to play, how you want to lead. Especially Jurgen Klopp did an amazing job. He stayed eight years at Liverpool. It's such a long time for a coach. He made a lot of things right. Not only me, all the young coaches in Germany and also the world can learn from him.

Is that something you think about, longevity? Do you think you want to stay at somewhere like Brighton for a long time just to kind of, like, really get grounded somewhere? I think it's important, yes. I'm not...

The person who wants to be one year at that club, two years at that club, I want to be as long as possible in one club and try to build a relationship also with, not only with the players, also with the staff, you know, with the employers working on the club, to really adapt to their identity and to integrate in this community here. Because in the end, I always say I'm a guest here in England and I should behave like it.

guest and I was now four years in my former club St. Pauli and when I left it really felt like I left like a family and I think it's not only in this business about money. It's also like building relationships. It's about how do you leave a club? Yeah, and I think that's very important for me that that I leave a club with memories. If we're walking around here and say 30 years, I won't be. You could be.

What will be the ultimate goal for you in 30 years time? Are you still in this job? You're in it for life? So, in the end I always say it's my passion and exactly what I'm doing here, I really love to do it and really enjoy it.

I don't know what I'm doing if I don't have this job. I think it's a long time, it's a long-term goal, but of course I want to stay in this job as long as possible and try to make memories with the people, try to make memories with the club, try to achieve something together where my people talk in 30 years about this. I think that's the priority goal.

Good luck with it. Really nice to meet you. Thanks a lot. Thank you. I have to say, throughout that whole interview, I kept saying into my head, "He's 31 years of age." And I know I sound like an old granny saying that because of my senior years, but just

just such a mature head on such young shoulders. He had a really good answer for every single question. And I think, much like the likes of Tuchel, ironically, and Jürgen Klopp, who I've been privileged to sit with, I could have talked to him all day. It was just a very easy conversation. You have done a little bit of digging, haven't you, on Herzl, dare I say. You've been back to his first club, is that right? Yeah, so during the summer I went to Leipzig,

the Bavarian countryside, an amazing place called Pippensried, which I'm sure I'm mispronouncing. I think I did mispronounce throughout my time there. But that was where he began his coaching career. He joined them, I think, age 23 as a player coach. And then within, I think, within a season or two, he'd just become the coach and he'd stop playing.

And that was a really tiny fifth tier club and I think 400 people live in the village. And it's a really sort of small, lower tier community place. And this is where he first sort of started trying the methods that he uses now. And he brought in

video analysis and demanded mannequins and different equipment that they never had before. He said, "I need this to make it work." And he did. He had amazing success there, moved up through the ranks, and that's what got him the job eventually at St. Pauli and now here at Brighton. But yeah, with his age, I think he gets frustrated with people always talking about it. I understand why, but one of the things he said a few times is, "I may be a young man, but I'm not a young coach." He started coaching at such a young age.

I think he started coaching in 23, so he's now eight years into his coaching career, which is less, for example, than Mikel Arteta, for example. There are managers or ex-players who are retiring at 35 who are not eight years into their career yet as coaches. So I think that's a fair point that he makes, but certainly the age thing is the thing that stands out the most, I think, that it's just so unheard of to have someone that young doing this kind of job.

We're going to discuss Harry Kane after he received some scathing criticism from sections of the German media this week, following Bayern Munich's draw with German champions Bayer Leverkusen last week. The German publication BILT accused him of going missing in big games and described Kane as invisible during Bayern's defeat at Villa Park in the Champions League. And Sam, you wrote about this. Do you feel this criticism is fair?

Instinctively, no, because his record since going there has been astonishing and he's completely fulfilled expectations on an individual level. They signed him to score goals and create goals and he's done that at pretty much record-breaking levels. The question is how much is Kane responsible for the wider team

and the fact that Biden didn't win a trophy. And you could argue, and I can see the argument, that he was brought in as the leader, the 100 million euro man, and it is his role to lead this team to trophy-winning success. And if they don't do that, then it therefore falls on him. My instinct is that that feels a little bit harsh, given what he's done. But it's interesting... And, Darren, I love your view on this, because when we did that article, sort of reflecting what the German press were saying, quite a lot of...

negative feedback towards the Telegraph on social media for saying, why are you parroting what the German press are saying, for example? My view is that what the local media are saying about the England captain is quite interesting and relevant and worth covering. Absolutely. Well, no, I mean, I think it's our job to reflect, not just in print, but on here, what the perception of an outstanding talent like Harry Kane is.

is in the country where he's playing his trade. I mean, he's the England captain. So why would there not be a relevance around that? What has struck me is the fact that he is being held responsible for the defensive failures at Bayern that are undermining their title challenge and ultimately the Champions League last season.

had their defence been better, Baylor would not have beaten them to the title. But there does seem to be an instability which has cost managers their jobs. You cannot possibly blame Harry Kane for that. Harry Kane's record at the club, he scored his 50th, 51st, 52nd, 53rd,

Bayern Munich goals in his 50th appearance for the club. His record since he's gone there, it's been a huge amount of money that they've spent on him. Do you think that's the price tag that's kind of getting, is irking some that, you know, you want more for your money type thing? I don't think so. I think that he has now seen that all of the adulation he gets, he's got to take with a pinch of salt if they're going to turn round at the first sign of trouble and actually put...

the problem on his toes. Even when they scored nine goals against Dinamo Zagreb, they conceded twice against a side that had no right to score against them. There are defensive frailties in the Bayern Munich team. They're top of the league at the moment and flying. But they have yet to solve those problems and they're blaming Kane for that and it isn't fair.

I find it really interesting how Kane is perceived in Europe and I'd like to know more about it. I was in France this summer and I spoke to a taxi driver, a long taxi driver, talking to him about the work and football and all these things and he said, "What do you think about Harry Kane?" And I said, "Oh, he's a fantastic player, he's a great leader for England." He went, "He's a black cat."

He said he'll never win a trophy, he's just got that curse on him. And he said, that's what all my friends think. And everyone in France, we talk about him in those terms. He's seen as this great player, but he'll never do it. And I find that so interesting because in England, we have so much respect and admiration for what Kane has done and how he led Spurs and how he's led England to levels that we haven't reached for since '66 effectively.

And then in Europe, they're like, well, yeah, but he's not done it in the finals and not done it in the big moments. Is there interesting? Well, I think what works in his favour is that he's 31 years of age and he's in a country where Robert Lewandowski was winning silverware for Bayern deep into his 30s. So there is still every chance that he could actually break that supposed curse that is around him. I mean, the perception, as you were saying, of him is all important because we obviously, being English, having...

enjoyed him for so many years we would obviously give him the praise that he is due but

When you go to another club for a huge amount of money, as soon as there's a problem, they stick it on your toes instead of actually looking at the areas where they should. Yeah, and it's interesting you talk about the defence because we can have a look at some of his stats. You were sort of alluding to them. He's got the most goal involvements, that's goals and assists, of course, of any player in Europe's top five leagues since the start of last season. So he must be thinking and looking at these papers and thinking, wow.

What can I do? What more can I do? Do you remember the Champions League semi-final? Real Madrid away at 1-0 up. Kane had been brilliant, holding up the ball. Target man was absorbing all the pressure. But he had that back issue, which I think clearly dogged him in the Euros as well, even though it was never quite said in those terms. But they took him off.

in the 85th minute, 1-0 up, and they lost that game 2-1. That was the biggest game of their season. They took Harry Kane off. I remember watching that. Not that it sounds wise after the event, but I remember watching that with my wife, who has no interest in football, and I was just screaming at the TV saying, they've taken Kane off. What are they doing? And they lost. And I thought, you just don't... And he can't be blamed for that. He wasn't on the pitch. And on the flip side of that, last week, he had an injury, an ankle injury, against Bayer Leverkusen, the 1-1 draw.

actually another striker would have said, you know what, I'm going to sit this one out and make sure that 100% fit. But he wants to play in moments where he's possibly not 100% fit. So you can't blame him for that. And the last thing I would say on this is that time and again we've done shows where we've talked about the lack of touches for Erling Haaland. But at that moment where...

an opportunity presents itself, he's able to take it. The problem with Bayern last week is that nobody out in Germany has given credit to what has been an outstanding defensive job from Unai Emery. He chose Philo Jean over Leon Bailey because of his great ability to defend and tuck in and make sure they shut down the space. Uri Tielemans was doing it on the other side as well. And they were superb. And we know that Emery has this ability

with Villa, with Villarreal, with Sevilla, to pull off big results against supposedly bigger teams. So the idea that Kane is to blame for that is just for mere nonsense. The good news is he'll be back with the England fold, where everyone loves him, next week. Lee Carsley, the man that's just popped up behind you, do you think he's going to get the job full-time? It does feel increasingly like that's what...

everyone wants at the FA. And it does also, I do wonder if in a year to come we'll look back at these six games that he's been given as like that was effectively the soft launch of Lee Carsley. If he wins the next four, which I think he's got six and he's got the next four, then he's a lot more palatable to the wider public. He's come in a great job, you know, hire him up now. Or as if they'd hired him on a permanent basis immediately after the Euros before he'd taken over any

games for England, it would have been maybe harder for people to stomach. I get the feeling that's what they want to do and I'm not against it as a journalistic point of view or as an England fan. I think that seems eminently sensible to me. Just to add to that, I think that as far as...

he's concerned. I really want him to get the job. I think it would represent a success for the pathway that's opened up at St George's Park. I think he's a success at a lower level, so why would you not give it to him if with many of the same players he could get that success again? Cole Palmer's played under him. Angel Gomez looks a terrific player. There's a piece in the Sunday Times by him, a really, really good piece.

Karl Palmer could be unreal and a big part of why we were so frustrated with Southgate's England given, and I must point out to all the other work off the field that he did tremendous work, but the team wasn't exciting enough. But I think this team, this England, has the potential to be really exciting under Carsley. Yeah, I agree with that. Just finally, is that something that, as the media, will he have to work on that? Because by his own admission, he doesn't like to...

wax lyrical about stuff, does he? He's quite a shy kind of guy. Certainly not on the pitch at all, but certainly in front of the media, he's kind of getting used to us still, I think. Is that something that he's going to have to sort of step up and step up quickly, do you think? Or does it really matter about that?

It helps. I don't think it matters a huge amount. And that was something Southgate was really good at. The way he became a spokesman on so many issues, sort of culturally and socially beyond football, was really impressive. But that wasn't really his job. Although, that said, when the FA published their criteria for the manager's job, I think one of the criteria was, like,

ability to really sort of be a spokesman and lead I can't remember how they phrased it. Did you apply for it? No, they published the requirements for the job. They got loads of applications from random people. It was really interesting they did it but that was one of the things about carrying yourself and presenting yourself and sort of being a spokesman like an emblem for the team. I mean obviously there was the national anthem

situation before. I'm sure everyone's got their own views on that. Personally, I thought it was all rather silly, but that's me and that's fine. I'm allowed to have my view, I think. Yes, you are. You certainly are. I hope so. But yeah, look, if he can get England playing well and winning tournaments, no one's going to care if he's great at talking in press conferences.

Let's get to the news this week that the anti-racism activist and kick-it-out founder Lord Ousley passed away at the age of 79. Darren, just sum up for us what he meant to football. He was a pioneer, wasn't he? He really was. Lord Ousley, I would say every player, every black player in the country, and this would not be hyperbole to say, in this current generation...

I need to thank Lord Ousley for the work that he did setting up Kick Racism Out of Football in 1993. He was chair of the organisation for 25 years. As he put it, he fought for...

for the game to actually recognise the problem of racist abuse, where the options for black footballers were to put up with it or to leave the game altogether, because there was nobody else prepared to do that. He'd had racism as a young man. He came to this country from the Caribbean.

went to school in South London. He suffered horrendous racist abuse himself, but he decided he wasn't going to walk away from it, he was going to stand up to it. And at the time when he set up Kick Racism Out Of Football,

He had a lot of pushback from the authorities in this country and very often he would have to speak truth to power but in doing so he empowered other footballers to do the same thing as well and he forced the game to actually see the problems that people have. We now have kick it out rather than kick racism out of football. But Lord Owsley laid the foundations for the entire fight against discrimination that we now see.

In Black History Month, a lot of people are celebrating other figures when right under our noses is the game, is the guy who made the game what it is today and who sparked that awareness for people to have to see if you were different, that you still belonged within this game in this country. He is one of the most significant figures in the modern games history.

That's quite a safe statement, isn't it? Very true. It was all about under-representation for him, wasn't it? That's who he advocated for. He spoke it for everyone. It wasn't just about black players, was it? It was women, it was anyone that were under-represented. Absolutely, because when he was doing that work with In Kick Racism out of football, anybody who was different suddenly felt seen, suddenly felt there was somebody willing to actually shake the tree. We

We had a very, very stubborn, short-sighted FA that didn't see anyone who was different or didn't appreciate anyone who was different. And I have to be honest and say we had a media at that time that wasn't prepared to address the problems that we had. So a lot of the racist abuse that players have told us about, players were suffering from,

people were having to endure, right-minded people were having to look and be sickened by. It was not going reported. And Lord Ousley was the person who would speak truth to power and say, you will see us, you will address this, you will do something to make conditions for footballers better. A lot of the players that we celebrate now in this generation, their fathers would have gone through that kind of thing. And some of them might have a smile on their face and say, well, I wasn't too affected by it.

that was because they had to shake it off, not because it wasn't a problem. It was always a problem. This is the guy who fought for it. And the modern kick it out we see now, we might call him into studios or get him in our newspapers and get him to comment on this, that and the other. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Lord Ousley. I mean, just finally on this, what I really enjoyed about him is that he was, even at his age of 79, I mean, I was lucky enough to speak to him quite a few times,

He wasn't satisfied. He was never satisfied with what we'd achieved. He always felt that there was so much more we could do, and I dare say he would feel that right now. Absolutely, because for many years I'd heard a phrase, we've made great strides in this country, and it would be used to minimise and apologise, not even apologise, to dismiss some of the very real problems that the modern player faces.

was going through, is going through. We see it at so many levels of our game. We've spoken before on this very show about the inadequacy of the tools available to actively fight racism in this country, which is why low profile players still feel that they're not being seen.

were Lord Herman Ousley around in his pomp, he would be speaking on behalf of those players, whether they're A-list players in the Premier League, whether they're grassroots players who don't have that profile. He was out there fighting, and the best legacy he could leave is for us to remember that the fight against racism goes on. Just because we're not seeing high-profile cases right now doesn't mean there are footballers out there, people out there,

There are men, there are women, there are people who are different within our football ecosystem, who either don't feel seen or don't feel adequately represented. He was a guy who would fight for them and it's a reminder for us that we too have to fight for them as well. Yeah, lovely tribute. Thank you very much, Darren.

That's it for this week's Sunday Supplement podcast. We'll be back next Sunday, Sky Sports News from 10am with the podcast dropping as soon as we come off air. If you don't already, please give Sunday Supplement a like, a follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.