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I'm Derek Thompson, longtime writer with The Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, Plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. There's been a lot of hype about this day, Monday, April 15th, the first day of a criminal trial against a former president and a presidential candidate. So I went down to the Manhattan courthouse this afternoon to scope out the scene, and it was a circus.
closed off roads, network news satellites, protesters, random onlookers. I bumped into a guy who was on the jury. And of course, the press on risers, the people that Trump needs to turn what a grisly day in court is into a big moment on the campaign trail. He, of course, told the press outside that he was being politically prosecuted. Inside the courtroom, though, it was less momentous.
It was really just a day of jury selection and a few other issues that they had to clear up. The New York Times star reporter Maggie Haberman said she saw Trump actually taking a snooze. I think that tells you all you need to know. But it's a story we all know. A hush money payment was made to a porn star, Stormy Daniels, so that she wouldn't tell her story ahead of the election. Now it's up to the prosecutors to prove that Trump knew that he was falsifying a business record and that it was really a campaign contribution.
So on this episode, I bring on one of the brightest legal minds, a former prosecutor for the Southern District of New York, a CNN commentator, and a friend of the show, Ellie Honig, who will break it all down for us. He lays out the weakest and strongest arguments, evidence, and testimony for the Trump team and the prosecutors, and what this whole trial hinges on. Plus, he'll map out what he expects from the closing arguments.
Ellie, thanks so much for being on the show. I know I've seen you on CNN all day today and you're about to run off to another hit. So I'm going to try to get down to it as quickly as we can. It's the first day in court, a lot of hubbub. Feels like not a lot of action though.
what is it like in there the first day of a big trial like this? It's anticlimactic sometimes, right, Tara? Because it's like opening day in baseball, but if nothing happens. No opening arguments, really, right? No, we're not even close. We're a week or more away from that. I mean, first of all, they started the day up until lunchtime just with housekeeping, unresolved motions, you know, nuances, that kind of thing. And then you have to understand jury selection, especially in a complicated case like this, it's like a cattle call. You're bringing in
100 people at a time and who's raising their hand and move them. Okay, you all move from the back into the box and it's a lot of logistics. How many people was it? So they started today with 96 people in what we call the jury pool or the French's veneer if you prefer the French and I don't. Yeah. And
what was interesting that happened today is the judge said, I'm going to start by asking the judge, do any of you, are any of you so biased? You cannot sit on this case. And if anyone raises their hands, I'm not even going to ask further questions. I'm going to show them the door. Now, normally a judge would press on that. He would go, well, okay, hold on. Ms. Palmieri, you're juror number four. You say you're so biased. Why is that? Couldn't you follow my instructions? Here, he just said, if they raise their hands, they're gone. And over 50 people, actually,
out of those 96 said, get me out of here. Uh, which is remarkable. And I think speaks to the passion that people have for Trump. I mean, how many of those do you think were I'm biased against Trump and can't sit here? How many of them do you think were like, I love him so much. I couldn't sit on this jury zero. Oh no, it's a Manhattan jury. Getting one person on that jury that is in favor of Trump is like a huge feat. I
I would say for the defense. And Tara, I want to make this very important point to you because you're a North Jersey girl. I'm a South Jersey guy and we'll understand this. When you hear that this is a New York trial, people may be naturally thinking the five boroughs. No, no, no. This entire jury is from Manhattan. No Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx, no Staten Island. No Staten Island guys there to back him up. Listen, if Trump could move it to any of the five boroughs, I mean, there's no way he gets, right? He got 57% of the vote in Staten Island. He'd get a bunch of cops. He'd walk.
Right. But, you know, Manhattan is a dreadful jurisdiction for him. He got 12.3% of the vote in Manhattan in 2020 and like 6% in 2016. So,
It's a tough pull for him. I know jury selection is super important. I covered the John Edwards trial and they really nitpicked over every single juror because it was a political story. It was kind of similar to this. It was a payment to keep a mistress quiet, right? Right. Although a little different. It wasn't a business payment. They were trying to say it was an FEC violation. It ended up being a hung jury as well. So...
I wanted to ask you, what would a good jury look like for Trump? For Trump, a good jury would be one secret agent slipping through. And I'm not even kidding. You're not going to look. Donald Trump is not going to get acquitted. He is not going to get a 12 to zero not guilty verdict. That's just not in this county. What you're hoping for if you're Trump is you get one person acquitted.
who is subtle enough about their preference for Trump that the other side doesn't pick him off, right? Because for example, in the questionnaires, if someone writes, well, my primary news source is Fox News, I'm a member of the NRA, and I've attended a couple of Trump rallies, that doesn't necessarily remove them what we call for cause. The judge won't necessarily kick them off if he says,
Even with all that, I can still be fair. But the DA has 10 challenges. This is like the strategy element of it. Each 10 what we call peremptory challenges, meaning you can pick off someone for whatever reason you want, other than race or sex or that kind of thing. Did you see the Curb Your Enthusiasm finale by chance? No, I didn't catch it. So Larry David is on trial. Spoiler alert, I won't give away the ending. They're doing jury selection. It couldn't be more timely.
And Larry David's going, that guy's wearing a bolo tie, a string tie. Get him out. I don't like him. That guy has a beard. No. But honestly, you do that. You do. As a prosecutor, I would look at someone. I would be like, ponytail. No, not having that. So sex or gender, like if you could do that or race, like what would be ideal for Trump? For Trump? Trump would want a white male cop who,
who has a MAGA hat. I mean, right. Like let's, you know, or a white male firefighter or something like that. Although I will know, I was talking to somebody who knows New York city better than anybody. I won't say who, but somebody you probably know. And she said, you know, Trump might be happy with young black men on that jury. I read that as well. Oh, you did. That was the thinking in the John Edwards trial too, that African-American men would be the most sympathetic to him. And then the prosecutors tried to pick a white women that were the age of Elizabeth Edwards, his wife. Oh,
Oh, yeah. That's interesting. By the way, I'm not entirely sure that it was a hung trial, but I remember that he got off. No, it was hung. Yeah. And I remember there was like four weeks of deliberation. Yeah, it was four weeks of deliberations. It was crazy. Yeah. Why didn't Trump get punished for this gag order? Why didn't they actually follow through on that? I feel like he's completely ignored it and the
So the gag order says the gag order says he cannot make public comments about witnesses, jurors or staff and family members. And what does he do? He posts on true social that he calls Michael Cohen a quote sleazebag. Capital S, capital B. Don't ask me the first time he said it. Right. And cause him a liar. I mean, a flagrant down the middle violation of the gag order. And I said it.
nine in the morning today, I said, the DA has to walk right in there and say, judge, that's a violation. We want him disciplined. And not that they were necessarily watching CNN, but if they were, they did exactly what I said. They went in there at nine 30 and the judge said, well, we'll have a hearing on it next week. And do you know how, have you seen how much the DA is asking for to punish Donald Trump for three times? He posted, guess what they're asking the
the judge to fine him do? Did you happen to see this today? No, I didn't. How much are they asking? Get ready because this is really going to put Trump out of business. $3,000 is what they're asking for him to run his mouth. I mean, this is all like a political contribution because he gets so much free airtime with this trial in a way. Right. You have
all of the network standing there ready to take his every comment as he comes in and out of the courthouse. And he's saying he's being politically persecuted. It's worth the $3,000 for him to be able to run his mouth. Don't you think he would pay $1,000 per true social to blast Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels? Of course. What's happening here is a discipline problem. Like you don't have kids. So but anyone who has kids will understand this.
Sometimes like kids are smart enough to understand that there's one punishment that I really do care about, but they're not really going to do it. They're not really going to turn the car around and go home. Then there's a bunch of little punishments that I don't really care about. And when you end up in that situation as a parent, you're screwed. You're negotiating with a terrorist. Exactly. And you don't have...
So Trump is now doing this calculation of, okay, he might find me a grand or two per post, but he's not going to lock me up. Theoretically, he could. But can you imagine? I mean, if Judge Mershon locked up Donald Trump for tweeting or for truth socialing, that would be the greatest political gift to Donald Trump ever. Right?
And Merchant would never do it. So Trump sort of knows there's only one type of discipline that means anything. The money doesn't mean anything. Judge Merchant can yell at me. I don't care. But he's not going to lock me up. So Merchant's got a discipline problem on his hands. Is there some argument to the fact that he is a political figure and he's running in a campaign so he has to have freedom of speech? Like, in fact, that he has to argue for his, you know, I don't know. Is there some argument there? Yes, I think that's... I mean...
Anyone has a first amendment right, but especially if you're a political candidate, especially if you're one of two or maybe three or whatever candidates for president. And I do want to say that the phrase gag order is misleading because when you think of someone who's been gagged, you think of like.
you know, Indiana Jones getting tied up with a, you know, gag across his mouth. He can't say anything at all about the case, right? Right. But listen to what he can and cannot say. He cannot criticize witnesses, jurors or staff members and family. He is free to, and he has absolutely gone nuts on the judge, the DA and the case itself. So a lot of Trump's posts that are, have been extremely aggressive, this corrupt judge and Alan Bragg is a racist.
That is OK under the gag order. That does not violate the gag order. So it's really quite narrow. But I will say one thing that I think is very fair from Trump's point of view. There needs to be something done about Michael Cohen, because Michael Cohen all day, every day for a living, basically, is out there, A, just attacking Trump, but B, saying Trump's so guilty. The evidence is overwhelming. And yet Trump's not allowed to comment on Cohen. So, yeah.
That, I think, is unfair. And I think if Michael Cohen wants to dish it out that way, he should have to take it as well. Right. Yeah, that's interesting. And it also just shows you he might not be seen as a credible witness, but for other reasons, we'll get to that in a minute. First, I want to ask you, what did you think of the jury questions? Do you think that they were sufficient or what were your thoughts? Did anything come out? I've done trials with similar jury questionnaires. I mean, I did trials of high profile gangsters, including John Gotti Jr. at one point.
one point. So everyone knew who he was. And there
And they're similar. I mean, they're not as political as this, but you're trying to get at like, do you have any preexisting feelings for or against this guy that are going to really get in the way? And so, you know, it was a little odd in that, like, they didn't just come out and ask the questions. Did you vote for him or against him? Are you a Democrat or Republican? But there's a million proxies for that. But they could have asked that, right? Kind of. Right. That's what I mean. They didn't ask it, but they could have, though, right? Yeah. There's no law against it. I don't know why they're.
being kind of coy about it. You know, we used to get jury questionnaires. We would, one of the questions judges would ask in our cases, and it's up to the judges, name three public figures you most and least admire. Okay. Well, there you go. We would get people who said a person who commonly appeared on both lists was Rudy Giuliani. Okay.
Hillary Clinton appeared on a lot of both lists, you know, but sometimes you can tell where a person stands. Like if they say the people I most admire are Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi and Greta Thunberg, that's going to tell you something a lot different than if they say, you know, Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Mitch McConnell. And I don't know, you know, whoever. I'm not surprised to hear that from a New York because you were a prosecutor in Southern District of New York. Right. It's not really surprising that they would.
choose these New York icons like Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani. Right. And then, by the way, they give like really unhelpful answers sometimes. Like I remember people would write, what public figure do you least admire? And they would write like Hitler. It's like, I mean, obvious. Come on. OK, everyone hates Hitler. You don't kind of have Hitler on that list. Yeah, exactly. OK, I just want to go through. What do you think are some of Trump's strongest arguments going into this?
So Michael Cohen is number one. I mean, look, a lot of this case is going to rest on Michael Cohen. I tell her it's really important to understand the crime is not hush money. Hush money is not a crime.
Grab his lot of hush money again. This isn't an FEC violation either. That's not what they're trying to prove. Well, what they're trying to prove is that it's a campaign violation because their argument of the of the prosecutors is they paid this hush money to Stormy Daniels. The purpose was to silence her to help their campaign. Therefore, it was a campaign expenditure or donation. It was one hundred thirty thousand dollars way in excess of the limits and it wasn't properly reported.
And they hit it by calling it a legal fee. That's the crime. The crime is falsifying business records. So it's basically like the John Edwards trial all over again. It's very similar. Yeah, except there's a little more of a paperwork accounting angle. But it's very similar to the John Edwards trial. So I think a lot of that's going to turn on Michael Cohen. And Michael Cohen keeps saying, well, everything I say is backed up by documents. Not really, because the key question, there's no question there was hush money paid. The key question, though, is whose idea was it to structure and label this as legal?
legal fees. And on that, it's going to turn on Michael Cohen's testimony. Because he could have just called it an in-kind campaign contribution paid for by himself to his own campaign. Yes, he could have done that. I mean, you know, I don't know. I guess he would have had to say hush money, but which you don't really do. But yeah, I mean, I think that's the argument, right? Like he could have just done it that way. And as long as he made it clear it was a campaign contribution.
Right. Because I think what the John Edwards thing is, he was taking money from Bunny Mellon, but wasn't saying what it was for the donor. I think that's exactly right. And Edwards, the reason that
It wasn't his own money in that case. Well, right. And Edwards convinced the jury that it was it was more to protect against personal humiliation and humiliating his wife than than campaign finance. And here Trump will make that argument. I mean, clearly, pretty clearly was to protect against the campaign. But again, I don't know what the proof is going to be that Donald Trump, as opposed to Michael Cohen and Allen Weisselberg, was the one who said, let's try to disguise this as legal.
And in fact, do you remember Tara, the tape Michael Cohen secretly recorded Trump when he was representing him? It was pretty shady move. It came out at like six, seven years ago. If you listen to that tape, they're talking about hush money payments to the, to the other woman, Tara McDougal, but she's,
Trump is clueless. Trump, he knows they're making hush money, but in terms of how they're going to do it, Trump at one point says, what are we going to do? Pay cash? And Michael Cohen says, and I quote, no, no, no, no, no. He says no five times. He goes, no, no, no, no, no. I got it. Me and Alan are going to work that out. And so I would love that as a defense lawyer. I go right there, game over. Michael Cohen and Alan Weisselberg are the ones who falsified the business records. The lawyer and the CFO. I'm
Trump doesn't know or care about the accounting of it and the crime is in the accounting. Look, Michael Cohen, every cooperating witness has baggage. I put on multiple murderers as witnesses, but Michael Cohen has a unique kind of baggage because this guy has lied and then piled lies upon lies and piled lies upon lies upon lies. I mean, he was held under contempt from Congress.
Politico pointed out the other day that Michael Cohen has officially been caught lying to every branch of government. He's lied to DOJ and the IRS in the executive branch. He lied to Congress, as you said. He got convicted of that. And he lied to the courts because he now has this bizarre thing. See, Michael likes to say, I only ever committed crimes with and for Donald Trump.
That's bullshit. Michael Cohen pled guilty to tax fraud and bank fraud on his own for his own money, having nothing to do with Trump. But his response to that is when I pled guilty to those things under oath in federal court in 2018, I was lying to the judge then. I didn't actually commit those. I mean, it's like lies upon lies upon lies. You don't even know what's real and what's up and what's down. Jury's supposed to believe this guy beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what the defense will say. Prosecutors will say, yes, he lied and committed crimes, but he's come clean and he's backtracked.
backed up by the other evidence. Okay, so that's, and so the prosecutor's strongest argument is that it's all about Michael Cohen, really. It's all about Michael Cohen, and they cannot tie Trump to the actual falsification of the records. Okay, and what do you think the prosecutor's strongest argument is going to be? Prosecutor's strongest argument is going to be there's largely a paper trail here. He clearly knew about the hush money payments. They're going to say that
Of course, he didn't. He knew they weren't reporting these as campaign violations. And his intent was to silence Stormy Daniels to keep her quiet around the election. Therefore, it's a campaign finance violation. I think the prosecutors are going to have better witnesses than Cohen. For example, maybe David Pecker, by all by all accounts, a sleazy guy who ran the inquiry. But.
doesn't have nearly the baggage and the history of lying that Michael Cohen has and was in the middle of this. I mean, if you can interlock testimony from, you know, some aspects of Michael Cohen and some aspects of David Pecker and checks and ledgers, then you can put together a palatable case. These are all just such sleazy witnesses that the prosecutor has to work with. Think about the star witnesses. It's like even Stormy Daniels. Warren Star, a
a tabloid editor. Yeah, Stormy Daniels has changed her story a bunch of times. She was the one who approached Trump's team. It's not like they went to her and were like, hey, we'd like to pay you. She was the one who approached Trump's team and said, we're getting close to election. You might want to silence me. I don't care what she did for a living. God bless. But her conduct, I don't think, is not great either. Yeah, totally. Okay, who is the strongest witness for Trump? He may not have to put on any witnesses. It is very common, despite what you see in movies and TV shows,
Defendants and defense teams often put on little or no case at all. They don't have to say, OK, jury, and the defense is this. A lot of times defendants just go with what's called a reasonable doubt defense. They just say they haven't proved their case. You can't. The only evidence they have of that is Michael Cohen. You can't bank on Michael Cohen. Would you let him borrow your car or take care of your kids? I don't think Trump's going to take the stand. I don't buy it for a second. He's going to do his usual thing.
I want to. I would. I would if I could. But I don't know that Donald Trump is going to even actually call a defense witness. I don't know that he'll need to. He'll just cross examine all the witnesses that the prosecutors call. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And you can just all you have to do is punch holes and say they didn't meet their burden. And then you wrap it up in your closing argument all the way that there are calls.
Yeah. Defense lawyers used to complain because we got the first word in opening and the last word in closing this. Oh, it's unfair to you. And we used to say, well, if you want to have if you want to be the one that carries the burden of proof, you're welcome to it. And then we can switch. You know, it's tough. OK, who is the strongest witness for the prosecution, you think? Maybe Hope Hicks. It just because she's she's obviously going to be credible. She's obviously not going to relish testifying against Trump.
She was in on some of those early calls between Trump and Cohen and Pecker where they're talking about these payments. But her testimony, she's given testimony to Congress that's sort of ambiguous about she said something like she didn't really know there was hush money payments until after the election, which is a little strange. But if she were to come forward and say, I was on those calls, we decided to pay off Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. We did it because we were terrified of what they would do to us at the election. And maybe if she says,
And there was some discussion of let's just call it legal fees. Like, we don't know exactly what she's going to say, but potentially she's the most powerful witness. She's not as close to Trump anymore, by the way. She's not working for him. She's not in the inner circle the way she was when she testified before Congress. So that may change the calculus for her, too, don't you think? Oh, yeah, for sure. But also, like, she's not going to be seen. I mean, Donald Michael Cohen's job is hating Donald Trump. Like, she's not going to be seen as
nearly having as much baggage as him. Yeah. No, but she also can't testify in a way that conflicts with her testimony before Congress too, right? No, you're right. She would have a big problem if that happened. So she's got to either give the same testimony or find some way to thread the needle. Yeah. And what has she said before Congress at this point? She basically said, generally speaking, she was on some of those early calls and conversations about
about Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, but she said something like, even though they were paid off before the election, she said she didn't know that there were payments involved until later, which is curious to me. I guess it'll be fleshed out at trial. Maybe it was like when she read it in news reports. Yeah, I think that's probably- She put two and two together. Yeah. Okay, I don't know that for sure, but it sounds about right.
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Can you predict the closing arguments? Oh, yeah. Okay. Prosecutors are going to get up there and say, this is not a crime about paperwork. This is a crime about trying to steal the 2016 election. Public had just heard the Access Hollywood tape. Donald Trump's campaign was reeling. And now they learned that it was going to get even worse because Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal were going to go public. And so what did they do? They paid them off. They lied. They said it was attorney's fees to make sure you, the voters, didn't find out
And that's the crime here. And defendants are going to say they haven't proven their case against Donald Trump as they've charged it. They've charged him with falsifying business records. They haven't proven that he was the one who falsified them. In fact, it was their star witness who falsified the Michael Cohen. And by the way, you can't trust that guy as far as you can throw him. You can't deprive a person of his liberty based on the word of this scoundrel. Basically, this whole case hinges on the credibility of Michael Cohen, essentially.
I think the DA and his office's flax would probably object to that and say, well, it's really a documents case. I think I would fall somewhere in the middle where Michael Cohen is going to be the most important witness and they're going to try to corroborate and bolster him.
as much and as often as they can. But ultimately, there's going to be some aspects of his testimony that are just going to have to stand on their own. And that'll be up to the jury. And they bolster him with other witnesses, essentially, right? Other witnesses and documents. I mean, look, it'll help that when Michael Cohen says, the way I was repaid was in a series of checks. And then you can go, here's the checks, everyone. See, Donald Trump signed them. Like, that's good evidence. Is this even a strong case? On the scale of cases that prosecutors charge,
It's middling, it seems to me. I mean, again, keep in mind there's stuff we don't know, but it's middle of the pack. And I'm not saying that to hedge. I've seen enough to know, you know, one to ten. It's a five, a four and a half. I mean, let me put it to you this way. If they were trying this case in January,
in a jurisdiction that had gone 50-50, Trump-Biden, I would say there's no chance of a conviction. But the healthy majority of criminal cases that go to trial do result in convictions. I don't think it's an absurd case on the merits. I think it's not a strong case in particular, but you're going to have a loaded jury pool. And so I think the odds are that Trump
Trump will get convicted here, but I wouldn't say 90%. I would put it, you know, 60 to 75% that he gets convicted. And you just never know what a jury is going to do. I mean, I've seen,
dead bang cases hang because one person didn't like the cop. I've seen dead bang cases end up in acquittals. I mean, juries are just, they're as unpredictable and dynamic as humans themselves. Although I will guarantee you there will not be an acquittal. There will not be 12-0 saying not guilty. That won't happen. So you think we don't know the full story already, even though it's played out in the press? Like you think there's going to be new evidence that's going to reveal new things? Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, for example, we don't know exactly what Hope X will say. We've never really heard a full airing and cross-examination of
Well, we've never heard a full airing of David Pecker's story. We've never really seen Michael Cohen meaningfully cross-examined on this. We saw him cross-examined in the civil fraud case, but that case was a joke.
I mean, our judge was a joke. There was no jury there. Um, so we've never really seen Michael Cohen put to meaningful test. And let me add to her real quick. I know. So Alvin Bragg, who's the DA, Todd Blanche, who's Trump's lead defense lawyer. And I, we were all three of us colleagues at the SDNY together. We all work together. We're all friends. We're all in different units. Alvin was in like corruption and fraud. Todd was chief of violent crime. I was chief of organized crime, but it's a small world. And both of these guys, Alvin's not going to try the case, but I,
I don't just say this like just because they're my, my former colleagues, like they're both really good lawyers. And like Alvin is a very smart, reasonable, sensible person who I respect deeply. I question his judgment in some of bringing this case, but I do have a lot of respect for him. And Todd put out of your head, all the image of whatever Trump lawyers, you know, the screamers of the past, the Jenna Ellis's and Sidney Powell's, even the Joe Tack of penis. Joe's a good lawyer, but Todd is, is like,
is a person who has tried major gangs cases in federal court. He knows what he's doing. So this is going to, and the lawyers that are trying the case for the DA, they're all 20 year veterans. So this is going to be a high caliber matchup of lawyers here. And I think, you know, that can make a difference. I mean, good lawyering can win trials. Bad lawyering can definitely lose trials. So no Alina Habibi. Trump is not going to look, listen, if he's going to screw around and have Alina Haba do it,
A civil case, fine, he'll write a check if he loses, but you can't screw around with that here. This is four years in prison, right? I mean, do you really think you could get sentenced to that long? No. I mean, the max you write is four years. I mean, if you look at the broader world of these cases...
For a first time nonviolent, this is a class E felony, the lowest level, it's A through E. The vast majority of them get probation and fines, but no prison. I would say something in the order of, it's hard to put a number on it, but more than 70, 75% of people in that situation get no jail.
So it's unlikely, but possibly gets prison. But I want to say this last thing and then I got to run. I got to pick it through. Yeah, I know you're literally on set. Even if he gets convicted and sentenced to prison, he will not be locked up before the election because he will be given bail pending appeal, which means he gets to stay out for the year after.
18 months, 10 months, whatever it is that it takes to do his appeal. So he's not going to be behind bars on November 5th. Got it. Wow. So glad we got this all in. You are a whiz, a legal whiz. I'm so happy that we got you. And I'm going to check back in with you soon. I hope I can get. I'm the official legal analyst of Somebody's Got to Win. You know that, Tara. You are. I'm so lucky to have you. Okay. Have fun tonight. I'll be watching you. All right. Check it out. Take care.
That was another episode of Somebody's Gotta Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins. If you like this show, please subscribe, rate it, and share it with your friends. If you like my reporting, please go to puck.news slash Tara Palmieri and sign up for my newsletter, The Best and the Brightest. You can use the discount code Tara20. I'll be back on Thursday.
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