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sirens went off in Democratic circles on Thursday night when special counsel Robert Herr dropped his report on Joe Biden's handling of classified documents. It's not so much what the report said in terms of the alleged crime. They actually cleared Joe Biden of it. They said that there's no way a jury would prosecute him because they would just see him as a, quote,
well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. And that's the problem. How he was described in the report. The special counsel said he had diminished faculties and faulty memory. They said he couldn't remember when his son died. He said that he couldn't remember when he was vice president. They said he couldn't remember the athleticism
Afghanistan debate that he was so deeply involved in. And so the whole premise of the special counsel's report was, yes, he left the documents next to the Corvette, but there's no way to prosecute him because a jury would just see him as not willfully committing a crime, just an older man who can't keep it together. And that's the problem.
Those words, quote, a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory have become political catnip for Republicans. It's already being used by the Republican National Committee. They've created a logo with Biden's campaign logo with those same words. It's going to be cut on ads. The Trump campaign is going to use it. It is like mana from heaven in terms of political gifts. And it's
It's just confirms the worst suspicions that Americans have. And Democrats just can't deny it. You're hearing them say it out loud. It also comes ahead of the Super Bowl interview that he decided to skip. And it just makes people wonder, well, why would he get an opportunity to use free information?
advertising, free media, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of it and sit down with CBS for an interview. Now, I've got Meghan McCain on the show today. She's a friend, a former colleague at ABC News and agree with her or not, she's brilliant. But we really talk more about the politics of this all.
How can the Democratic Party, the campaign, the White House really defend against a legal document that says that the president of the United States has significant limitations, that he's painfully slow? He can't remember key dates of his vice presidency. This is a real issue when Biden is mixing up the names of the presidents of
Egypt and Mexico. And in conversations talking about the president of France, he's referring to a president who died in 1966, not the current president, Emmanuel Macron. It just feeds into the narrative and the fears of Americans that an 81-year-old president is not 100% there. And it shows in polling that Americans are giving Donald Trump an advantage when it comes to competency and effectiveness by 16 points, according to a recent NBC News poll. And
He has his own stumbles. I mean, he called Nikki Haley Nancy Pelosi the other day. He said he was running against President Obama instead of Hillary Clinton. But this is no doubt a political mess for the Democrats. But even last night when Joe Biden came out and did his press conference and he fought back, he was furious. How dare you say that? I don't remember when my son died. He referred to the Egyptian president, El-Sisi, as the Mexican president.
So, yeah, this is not a great day. Megan and I are going to break down how do the Democrats deal with this? How do they turn the narrative on a document that will be used in so many campaign ads against Joe Biden and which
confirm Americans' greatest fears about the 81-year-old president. All right. Well, I am so happy to have Meghan McCain on the show because not only is she brilliant, but she's also a friend. And you may or may not agree with her opinions, but she will always wow you with her intelligence. So it's really great to have her on.
No, it's true. And she has a hit podcast herself. Meghan McCain has entered the chat. So earlier this week, I'm texting Meghan. I'm like, okay, what are we going to talk about? You want to talk about Biden's poll numbers, the rumor that Michelle Obama may end up becoming the nominee. You know, she's from Arizona and that's obviously a battleground state. There's a lot of craziness going on there with this cuckoo candidate, Carrie Lake, running again for Senate. And then what about Kyrsten Sinema? So we had
All these ideas. We talk about Biden's Super Bowl snub. And then last night, it was like thunder. You know, this special counsel report, Robert Herr, he drops down this report and like exonerates Joe Biden, but actually crucifies him in the worst way. And I just wanted to get your take on that, Megan. What do you think about how he described Joe Biden? First, I just want to say, like, I think you're so brilliant, too. And you're one of my favorites.
of journalists forever for so long since you were like a politico which is the mini moon and uh you're so fair to everybody like left right whatever you i always love people that take shots at everybody and are fair to the process of politics i think it's like so important and so rare and i'm just gonna say one more thing i think what everyone's doing at puck is so important too it's become this juggernaut in the industry i read it every day i get the news letter um i love all like i
almost all the journalists. I personally had like you and Tina on my podcast. And I just think you guys are doing such great work. So whatever. Thank you. And sometimes I think like,
conservatives like never read anything outside of like box and like whatever Breitbart. And, uh, I, I really, really, really like it. So we try not to come from like an ideological standpoint and, you know, depending on what I write, my Wikipedia page changes from, she's a conservative writer who works for the New York post, right. Which I left like 10 years ago, or she's a liberal writer. And it's like, no, actually we're just journalists, but it is a hard, in these days, um,
reporting is like still get lost in the political mess. But even this special counsel report, I mean, yeah, no, I mean, I just like that. Now I'm hearing people call the special counsel Robert Herr a MAGA guy, which he wasn't. He was presented as unimpeachable when Merrick Garland, Joe Biden's justice attorney general picked him. But like he's saying that
Joe Biden has like faulty memory and couldn't remember when his son died. I mean, do you like, do you want me to go into everything that he said or like give the highlights and then I'll give you. Yeah. Okay. So here's already, this will be used in a Trump ad. I think they already put one together. Um,
Diminished faculties and faulty memory. Those are five brutal words that this special counselor used to describe Joe Biden. And this is a case about how he mishandles classified documents. It's pretty clear he left the classified documents next to his Corvette in his garage, or he kind of knew about them, but he was like, it wasn't nefarious. He knew that he brought them after he was vice president, but then he used them to write, his ghostwriter used them to write their book. But when they found the documents,
They were compliant. They worked with them. He did a five-hour interview and he gave them up. This is very different than Donald Trump, who was holding on to his classified documents as if they were, you know, scrapbook features, goodies, you know, from being president. But so special counsel...
Robert, her comes back and says, listen, we're going to exonerate him because we think he's a well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. The jury won't convict. That was basically his take was that the jury would feel so bad for this man being a well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory that they couldn't possibly convict him. He's the president of the United States. I know. Well, I was...
making dinner last night when this like all broke and I wasn't even really like, this sounds weird, but I wasn't like processing what the report said because it's so, it's a lot. This is like a lot to really absorb as I think any American and this is on top of
like the past few weeks where he allegedly, well, he did. He said that he met with the president of France who was president in 1996 when I was 12 years old. Yeah. He said he met with a Congresswoman who had died a while ago. You know, this is like there we've been, I think the,
put people in a press that seem to be, and this isn't everybody. I just said, I respect you. And there's, I actually want to make a, a Tik TOK or like a video of some kind that's like top 15 journalists. So I'm not, that's not like a blanket in your industry, but there are some people that it feels like are sort of like,
you know, covering for this. And I think the question I have, I was really furious when I found out that he wasn't doing the Superbowl interview, like the famous interview that most presidents do before or after the Superbowl. I don't remember, which is commonplace is now like the second year in a row. He hasn't done it. It's just a strange thing to do when you're up for reelection. So there's like lots of questions about why aren't you doing things that traditionally presidents have done? And then on top of it, just us seeing and hearing with our own eyes,
What I said to you before we started recording is that what I don't like right now, I was actually upset last night because I am not a doctor. I'm not a psychologist. I don't want to be put in some kind of position as a commentator and just an American to analyze his brain and if he is physically or emotionally capable. If this man isn't physically, emotionally, whatever, capable, cognitively capable,
His family shouldn't be allowing it. His staff shouldn't be allowing it. And the press should be more honest with the American public. No one on planet earth, well, maybe a few people, but I, the idea of president Trump becoming president again is, is something I'm actually having a really hard time reconciling. I, my husband and I were going to have to move from DC. I won't live in this town with, if Trump becomes president again, because like, just don't want to run into like Trump people, like at,
like a preschool, like means a lot of life changes for me. And it's not about me, but I'm just saying like, I do not want Trump to be president either, but I don't know how you run a person in this situation.
Who has this report out and asking for another five years of the American public. And I don't know. I don't know why I was, I was actually like kind of scared last night. Cause you think about like that 3am phone call. What if there's like, God forbid some crisis, or if there's another nine 11 again, knock on wood, God forbid, is he capable of handling it? And,
I saw some commentators on MSNBC this morning who were saying that, like you said, that the Justice Department was a Trumper and had no right to do this. And honestly, Tara, I don't know what the hell the answers are. No, no, no. Here's my thinking. Okay.
I will speak to the press and the idea that they don't call it out forcefully enough that there's obviously an issue with Joe Biden's memory. I mean, he just in a in a press conference after this report came out, he came out defiant and he was like, this is unfair. How dare they ask me when my son died? Of course, I remember the day because he wrote that Joe Biden did not remember the day when his son died. He said that he had a slow memory.
And he spoke very slowly, could barely read the diaries, and he couldn't remember the Afghanistan debate. He couldn't even remember when he was last vice president or left office, according to this special counsel document. But even in his defense in this press conference, he messes up the president of Egypt and Egypt.
Mexico. He calls El-Sisi, the Egyptian president, the Mexican president. And so it's like even in his defense, he's slipping up. And so his team has said the Biden campaign, the Biden White House, oh, he's been messing things up for 20 years. This is just Joe Biden. He's just gas prone. So like we're just supposed to believe this is just a gas prone type of guy. But I think the press really has sort of handled him with kid gloves.
And even the town of DC has handled him with kid gloves. I get it. Like all the Democrats are in it together. Like we got to get this guy over the line. Yes, he's not the best, but we have to do it. It's democracy. It's, you know, women's rights to abortion. And they are, they have a very strong ability to like freeze out the press.
if they perceive that you're not going along with their line, you're like, you're, you're MAGA. You know what I mean? Like you're conservative. Like the updates on the Wikipedia, on my Wikipedia page, they're not like, they're coming from Logan circle in Washington, DC. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's weird. No, but it's true. It's like, depending on the story. And it's like, no,
I read these stories. Oh, there was one in Politico on Monday from Jonathan Lemire being like, you know, the Biden team takes a decidedly backstage approach or like, you know, behind doors approach. And it's like he's passing on the Super Bowl interview, which is unbelievable.
hundreds of millions of dollars in free media, right? Like seven, 30 minutes, sorry, 30 seconds in the Superbowl is worth like $7 million. I read, I read, um, and he said he would get between three and four minutes of free advertising and they're passing on it. You know, they, um,
They have the air raids in Jordan. He wins the South Carolina primary and you don't hear from him at all. And they wrote about that, but it was like sort of, oh, well, this is the explaining of the White House. Why we're not putting him out there. But to the American people, like, I think they're smarter than that. I think they just see that this person is smart.
There's a feeling that he can't be out there, that they are so cautious. Whether true or not, he is being hidden. You know what I'm saying? There's a feeling that they're not seeing the president. And so this report confirmed their suspicions. And that's the problem. Jonathan Shade tweeted last night. I'm going to, this is paraphrasing, but something like,
biden came out swinging looking strong last night and i tweeted back actually ended up deleting it because i was just like i don't want to get in a fight with jonathan chabot it was like um i was like stop baghdad bobbing this um because part of it is like which is a reference to like a propaganda propagandistic like baghdad bob in iraq but i i was like i just again i am not here to like eviscerate president biden when it's unneeded you know i think he
I think he has been a horrible president for a lot of different reasons. I think Trump was a horrible president. I'm allowed to think both things. But I don't think the idea that the press gets to sort of like gaslight me. And again, not all press, but some people like Jonathan Chan are like, it's great. I mean, I think if I had appeared that way and not that I'm doing press conferences, but if I had, I think people would be like, is she okay? And I don't understand why the same levity isn't sort of like
given to the president. I also don't know if he was a woman. That's another thing. Like, I really think there's a total double standard. I bet if he was a woman, it'd be totally different. Right. I think you use the right word. It's like, you feel like you're being gaslit by like asking about it. Like, how dare you? How is this? But it's like so obvious. And you even have James Carville saying in this piece I read in the Times last night, you know, this is, there's nothing you can do about this. This is everybody's worst fear in America. And this report confirmed it. And like,
There really is no way to spin it. I mean, try to prove that Robert Herr is MAGA. Like, I haven't seen it. You had Merrick Garland pick this guy. But also, everyone who says something you don't like isn't MAGA. Like, that's... And that happens to me as well. People are like, oh, you must love... Do they know your history? Like, come on. I don't know.
But I will say the thing that's... There's a really interesting moment, not to bring this to pop culture, but all of a sudden, I feel like since the Grammys of Taylor Swift blowing off Celine Dion, all of a sudden, you're allowed to talk about maybe some problematic things with Taylor Swift. And I feel like with this report, all of a sudden, it's going to be more commonplace for really mainstream people to be talking about it because they're talking about a government organization. You're talking about an investigation. But I'm really...
I feel really, really, really uncomfortable. I know that sounds sort of like trite, but this makes me so uncomfortable because I don't want to be monitoring the cognitive health of the president. It's like really not the role of anyone. And then again, we're in a really tenuous, scary, chaotic world. What if something horrible happens and he's not capable of dealing with it? That's the fear. Yeah.
obviously that everyone has. And everyone knows a parent that's like, everyone knows a grandparent who's like 81. And there's talk of like, should we put them in a home? Do we take the keys away? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not like people don't know people in their, in their eighties. Oh yeah. I mean, and again, we all, it's not like I'm not ageist. Like I hope I get to be in my eighties. The question I have for you is like, how does this play politically internally with Democrats? Like, are people going to like, you know,
try and do something are they gonna try and pressure him to step down or is this just like stay the course until the wheels fall off one way or the other oh my god megan this is the question that i'm sure you get to at like every cocktail dinner party from anyone who's and they're like what's gonna happen it can't possibly be biden right because he is trailing trump in the polls like he is this he is trailing trump by five points nationally in 2020 and
when everyone's telling Democrats not to bed wet. At the same time, he was ahead of Trump by 10 to 15 points in the poll. And then he beat him in the popular vote. But when it came down to the battleground states, the matter, the swing states, he only beat him by 40,000 votes, right? In terms of the electoral college. Now,
This is another reason why the Democrats should be concerned. An NBC News poll that was released last week found that voters gave Trump an advantage of 16 percentage points on the question of who is more competent and effective. That's a 25 point swing since the last election in 2020. Is that crazy? And in 2020, Biden held a nine point lead on Trump on that same question.
So like this all kind of like snowballs into the same question. And now listen, we can, let's just get this out of the way. Trump himself has had his own gaps. He went on a rant saying that he ran against president Obama, not Hillary Clinton. He called Nikki Haley, Nancy Pelosi. He's mixed up leaders of countries, just like Joe Biden. But again,
Being 77 and 81, I guess it is a big difference when you're that old. Yeah, I mean, look, I think there should be age limits. I think we need to legitimately have a very serious conversation at some point in the country about age limits, both in Congress and the Senate and the presidency. That probably won't happen just because everybody running our country is so old and they want to stay in power.
But it's presenting a very, very serious. I mean, I would go so far as a national security issue. Can we can't have people this old who can't. I just think of Dianne Feinstein, who was like, you know, sad, wheeled in a wheelchair onto the Senate floor and died a few days later and had to be told how to vote. It's just like not how our systems should be put in place. And there's also I'm really obsessed boomers not letting go of power because it's like a very specific situation.
their generation. And I have this theory that like millennials like us are going to like retire at like 55 because we're like, I don't want to die like working and like, you know, decaying in public like everybody else does. I agree. But I also kind of blame the millennials for the position we're in right now. I mean, as an older millennial.
Because we're not seizing power. We're not grabbing it. Like, power isn't given. You have to take it. You know what I mean? And what are the Democrats doing? Like you said, they basically decided to cede the party to Joe Biden, who says that he is, you know, the only man on the planet that could beat Trump. And maybe some people believe that because he did beat Trump. And now there's like a visceral anger in D.C. among Democrats. Like, they're furious at him for even running because they feel like he's the only person on the planet who could lose to Trump. What?
is you think of like an AOC who is supposed to be, you know, just this like a renegade free thinking maverick. She has out and endorsed Biden all day. I mean, how does one like that? I want to know from her, like, do you still stand by this? And then, you know, she's obviously on the different side of the Israel Hamas war than he is. Like, it's,
it's just interesting to me to see how much like at least republicans are like fighting like we may my side which a non-trump side may be losing spectacularly but at least we're like fighting for something and right the democrats bending the knee and lying down for this and then at the same time like you said just so angry that he's actually you know that he's still running but privately privately quietly in the green rooms that's when they get angry i do the same thing the
Because there's nothing they can do. I think that's the problem. They don't want to sabotage their only person that they can put up against Trump. I think their greater fear is to have a Trump presidency. So if you knock Biden, then you get Trump, right? Like, there's no alternative. That's the problem. Do you think that this will be a forgotten moment in like, like, say, like, I don't know, Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey get engaged on Sunday at the Super Bowl. Do you think this is a story that fades away or has legs and staying power? No, there's going to be there can be so many ads.
that are written or made. I cut on this. RNC just last night, they make a graphic. Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory and it's put on the Biden campaign logo. They're going to make so many clips and stories about this. It's a legal document that exonerates him. This is bad. People are comparing it to the James Comey moment with Hillary Clinton where they said that she mismanaged emails.
I mean, he calls Biden painfully slow and says that he appears to have significant limitations. But how do they spin it? How does like a Jen Psaki, Tara, you know, like a Karine Jean-Pierre, like how do they spin this today? I'm curious about that too. They're spitting it as saying he was interviewed after the bombing in Gaza on October 6th. He was interviewed on October 7th and then October 8th and that he was under a lot of stress.
That's how they spin it. They say that
Robert Kerr is a MAGA guy, a Republican. The descriptions were gratuitous. They didn't need to go and describe his opinion of Joe Biden's memory. They say, yeah, Biden went out there and said, I am an elderly man. You know him, you own the elderliness. So I don't know. Maybe here, this is the thing. I said on Thursday on my TikTok and Instagram that this was probably the best day for the Trump campaign that they may have in the entire cycle.
The Supreme Court is skeptical of the decision to remove him from the ballot. And he gets a gift from heaven, a legal document saying that his opponent is basically dealing with memory issues, painfully slow and as old and perhaps the word senile as they have been long pushing. So this is a great day for the Trump campaign. Trump is going to be in front of...
courthouses though for the rest of the campaign and he'll be saying this is a witch hunt and that's another issue so he'll be out there defending himself against prosecutors who are chosen by the biden you know the justice department and he'll say this is the biden justice department trying to take out a political opponent how does biden actually respond to that because it it is not saying that biden picked them they all had their right to decide they want to prosecute but like
How does he respond to that on the trail? I think that's another sticky situation. There's also all this data that if Trump is somehow convicted of a crime that he like, basically it's like poison to all independence that it will go to Biden. And I feel like, you know, there's also not to be macabre, but president Biden is old too. There are situations where like, maybe there are health issues with both men. I actually think we're in like an absolute, like existential crisis as Americans, because like,
We have two of the most statistically unpopular candidates in the history of polling running against each other. They're also both, you know, well over the median lifespan of men in America. And I think we're all being put in positions where I don't want to be a lawyer or a doctor or a psychiatrist or anything. I just want to have normal people vote and
like vote for normal candidates. And, you know, we're talking about like a criminal and then possibly someone with dementia. It's not right. And it's not fair. And I, the only side to all of this for me is that I think that like,
I do think that it's waking a lot of people up in different ways. I actually think like RFK Jr., if he can get on the ballots, could be like a real spoiler. If no labels ends up throwing out a third party, if it was like a normal candidate that I liked or, you know, whatever, a former Republican or Nikki, I'm one of those people that would like easily vote for that candidate. So,
But I just feel like I can't. I know this sounds a little dramatic, but I'm like, I can't do this anymore with these candidates. And is it going to be just like even the rumors about Michelle Obama jumping into the convention? I'm like, is everything in my life going to be Clinton, Obama, Biden and Trump forever? I can't take it. Yeah, there's no fresh blood. Purgatory, a political purgatory. My God. I'm sure you feel the same way too. You have to cover every day.
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Okay, just to get back to the whole third party no labels thing. If you vote, though, for no labels, which probably has zero chance of winning, right? They want to do a unity ticket. Yeah, you're basically throwing a vote away. You're giving a vote to Trump, essentially. Same thing with Cornel West, Jill Stein, RFKT.
junior and like there are a lot of young people who are viscerally angry at Biden over the war in Gaza and I can't imagine them going out and voting for him I mean the White House thinks that like eventually when this all calms down they're going to remind these kids these young people listen it's us
you know, democracy, you know, freedom over your body, abortion or Trump, and they'll choose Biden. I'm not so sure that these people are going to go out and vote. Or if they do vote, are they going to be, are they going to activate their friends? Are they going to be the volunteers, the grassroots, the people who make sure that Biden wins? Because there's obviously lack of enthusiasm. Less than 2020, they're going to need help. And this isn't a COVID campaign. You're going to need to knock on doors. So I'm a little like dubious on that.
I just think it's going to be such a crapshoot. I think it's going to be a nail biter. I don't know what's going to happen, but you're right. If Trump is convicted, then Biden has a slight lead. But the NBC poll shows him only having a lead by two percentage points.
if he's convicted and also what does conviction look like do you know what i mean like you can be convicted and if you're not sentenced people might be like uh you know he's gonna appeal it or do they think it's it's fair like do they think is he convicted on the documents case because i could see people just being like oh he mishandled documents just like biden did who cares but biden got off and he didn't and and then what about this what if he's exonerated that's
That's a huge win for Trump, right? Especially on the January 6th case. I think that... Look, I agree with you. I think this is an absolute roll of the dice. You throw it at the wall and see what hits. There's no one that is a clear winner. One of the things I don't understand is...
Republicans are so enthusiastic. Like the base of the party is really enthusiastic about Trump. If you're a Democrat right now and you're seeing all of this, like, and I'm talking about like leaders, whatever, DNC people, why are you not more scared and more nervous? Because the majority of
people I see on air are really cocky and like, it can't, they almost like can't fathom the idea that Biden wouldn't be reelected handily. And even like an anecdotally in my own personal life, you know, there's people that I know that I'm like, you know, that he very well could get reelected. And it's like, it's like me saying that, like, I'm, I'm flying to Mars tomorrow. And I don't understand if you're like so siloed that you don't think that it can actually
You just have such a repulsion to everything Trump related that it just you can't even understand it. But if your job as a journalist or a host is to analyze this, how are you still that that logged off? And then again, like I just look at like a Jen Psaki, like you don't think anything's going wrong. It's just amazing. Like other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? It's like a consensual delusion, essentially. Right. Yeah.
But the problem is that they have to do this because there's no other choice. They don't have another choice right now. But David Axelrod...
things like he's been like you know given some some like you know honest assessments and then he's not being paid by the party he's totally he's you know the obama people and the biden people they have some beef right you know what i mean and david axelrod is an obama person they kind of look down on biden yeah he's just not being paid by the party he's an older guy he's like retired and he doesn't care anymore he's a media guy he can speak freely he's not you know
You know, he's not in the game anymore. And he says that he says that I'll call shots because I have nothing to lose. Fair. But fair. It's too late. So here here's the thing. You're right. Could be a health scare. So what happens? And like people have asked me about that. What happens if Biden like the polling is so bad and Biden needs to drop out or he has a health issue? So I have like I've heard some theories that.
I'm curious as to what you've heard. I've heard the same thing everyone else has heard about Michelle Obama being put in at the convention. But I've also heard from a lot of people, a lot of people that I know, that it's just like, that's a total fantasy, that it's not something that's realistic.
But I do think you never know until you know when you're in this crisis zone of what people believe is a constitutional crisis. I also have heard... I've heard what everyone else heard. Like, you know, Gavin Newsom is still waiting in the wings and interested. Oh, yeah. There's no... I can report that's true. But I just don't know how...
like go up on the DNC and you're like, we choose this person. Like that seems weird to me, like that the voters didn't nominate that just like the DNC is nominating someone. But I think that like we're entering on a time where it just won't, like he won't, if this is the trend line right now and what we're seeing continues to get worse over the next 10 months, which is almost a year. I don't know how President Biden is physically capable of being president. And I don't know how the DNC reconciles that.
Because again, that you want to talk about like the end of democracy. This is a way to end democracy as well. To put like a not cogent, senile person that seems like it's some kind of like, you know, Manchurian candidate as president. You want to talk about a lack of trust? That'll do it too. Totally. You know, I love that it's always just like Republicans
but it's like you're doing it you're just as craven as everybody else well yeah he's an older man clinging to power I know another one like that he's spray tanned orange you know what I mean yeah I do want him personally just his family too like I I just know like and again this is just me but
If like somehow in some universe, my dad were president and this were happening, just, there's just nobody in my family that would be like, let's keep, let's run again. Let's push it. Yeah. I don't think it's because what you're going to do to his legacy, if this ends up continuing on this path, you're going to destroy anything he has ever done. It's like 40 year career. Totally. So this is what I've heard in terms of like,
a possibility that could happen. And this is not based on like reporting from inside the DNC, but just based on history and what could happen. They get to the convention, which I believe is in July. Okay. They're in Chicago, which by the way, the last time there was a contested convention was in Chicago in 1968. And this convention just so happens to be in Chicago. Okay.
In July. Okay. So say Biden says, I'm dropping out for the good of the party or my health. And I've heard like they would probably drop out as a full ticket, Biden and Kamala Harris, because Kamala Harris is actually polling below Biden. So no one really feels confident that she could do it.
carry the ticket to a win. And this is if, you know, he's just so badly trailing behind Trump, or there's some sort of health issue. So they drop out together. And then the delegates and the superdelegates, they get together behind the scenes, and the party cooks up a another nominee, right? And then that person is presented as like a shiny new toy, there's not a lot of time to do a deep dive on them. And they get everyone excited, kind of in the same way that like,
Like, when Sarah Palin was rolled out and there was, like, that moment of, like, excitement of, who is this woman from, you know, this hockey mom from Alaska? Of course, she imploded. But do you know what I mean? Like, there's, like, a... You know, there's, like, this kind of excitement for the base and there's... Not even just for the base, but just for, like, Americans to feel good about a general election voters. Because you've already gotten past the primary at this point. You know what I mean? So...
I have thought about this and I'm like, you know what? That could happen, right? But when I think about how this could go down, this is just my thinking. If you're going to knock off the first African-American female vice president, you better not offer up a white guy on the top of the ticket, right? That will make the Democrats lose their minds, right? So that kind of makes me think
Gavin, I don't know about that. And they're saying he didn't play that well in South Carolina. J.B. Pritzker, like, I don't know about that. Josh Shapiro. These are all very popular Democratic governors. And I go back to Gretchen Whitmer.
Because, you know, she's from Michigan, a state that they're going to have problems with because of the large Arab American population. It's a swing state. She's got that Rust Belt vibe. She likes to wear her little, like, you know, bomber jacket. And she's a woman. She beat Tudor Dixon, who ran on this, like, anti-abortion message. I don't know that people know her enough, but maybe that's a good thing. You roll her out and kind of, like, let the world get to know her. I don't know. Michelle Obama, I've heard...
hates, hates politics, even though she is probably the most popular Democrat in the country.
but I just couldn't imagine her doing it. So I don't know. My take is I say, I don't know. I don't know. Over and again, over again, because this isn't based on reporting. This is just based on like a gut feeling and based on analysis and what I know about, you know, the various characters and players out there. And I could see it being a swing state Rust Belt woman coming through the last minute and saying, Hey, I'm your nominee now. And everyone's sort of thinking, okay,
I don't know, Megan, what do you think? Can I tell you, I thought that Val Deming should have been Biden's running mate. I still think she's like someone that really appeals to red state people. She's a former police officer. I think she's a sheriff. Like rides a Harley. I've interviewed her. She like speaks middle America very well. I think it is the like,
first original sin of his campaign. I think Kamala Harris has always been, it's so funny when she was chosen, there were so many people texting me that knew that know her and had worked with her that were like, she's a disaster. This is going to be a disaster. Like so many, I mean, I'm talking like maybe 10 people that had worked with her and Democrats.
And like, it's going to be a mess. And I remember being like, this is the worst choice. She is such a bad candidate. She couldn't even make it to Iowa. And she has been even worse than I could have imagined. I, I almost feel compassion for her because I just don't understand why someone hasn't properly media trained her. And, and she,
And I don't, I don't, of course there's always an element of racism and sexism in any type of prominent person was of color or a woman. We'll just like put that there. I do agree with that to a certain extent. And then you see like the passage of time, YouTube clip. And you're like, that doesn't seem like someone also like someone's brain is functioning in the correct way. So to be, I wonder how she feels. I just don't think she was ready for prime time. You know, that was the thing. I,
I was excited by the idea of her. She's not, you know, what's she going to do after this? Like run again for anything if she's not vice president. And just imagine being her being like vice president. Everybody's like, you know, the president's having all these issues. This report comes out and they're like, but not you. Like, I know. I think she was like maybe over-trained, over-coached. She got in her head.
Because she was pretty good when she came out of the gate. The first time I remember a bunch of Trump people saying to me when she was running, oh, God, imagine Trump trying to debate her on a stage. They were terrified of her. And then she just kept sinking in the polls. It's interesting that they chose someone who just did so poorly in the primary to be the running mate. Who she was as a senator. I need that person because she was like very serious. I remember her like performing in hearings, like, like very serious.
good. And I don't know what has happened between then and now, because now I don't think she could get elected to Congress, let alone be the vice president given. And it's really sad because I do think... She's a case of someone where they got in her head. They just got in her head, I think. It's sad though, because again, like it is significant. She's obviously like the first black woman as vice president. It's an important historical moment. But, you know, I...
I think she's just been really poorly, poorly performed performance of a vice president and in all ways. And she's very disappointing. And think of a different time when she really leveled up and was in a situation where she had a very high approval ratings. The Democratic Party wouldn't be in this situation. So anyway, but I don't know who, I mean, maybe Gretchen Whitmer. I don't know. I think she has a lot. I think of her as being like queen lockdown where she was like locking down fishermen.
you know, not letting people garden. She wouldn't let people buy like seeds. I mean, publicans have a lot of like muscle memory with COVID stuff. Right. Very like, like, you know, freaked out about anyone who was like so pro lockdown. But I think maybe the desperation factor that would be just like, make it work, you know, whomever it is. But,
But I can see a contested convention. I'm with you. I think that things can get to that point. I really can. I think that these are really unprecedented times. I just hope it's not bloody like the 1968 one with riots and everything. Because there are riots literally everywhere Joe Biden goes. It is right. Like, it's crazy. He can't.
Yeah, goes to South Carolina to these Baptist churches and he's saying four more years and they're calling him Genocide Joe or yeah, it's the Gaza rioters and it's really bad. I mean, they won't even meet with his people. When he went to Dearborn, there were rioters. They rioted the night before he even arrived. He can't go anywhere. And like Washington's being shut down. There's encampments outside of Anthony Blinken's house, the Secretary of State.
My husband was trying to take my daughter to the pediatrician and was super late because of the protests outside of his house. I was like, great. Totally. Yep. You are a Republican and this is going to be a hard choice for you this election, right? I'm not voting for Biden, no. Are you going to vote for Trump, though?
No. No, I'm not voting. I'll probably... Look, I know it's a cop-out and I know I sound like an asshole. I get it. And I get that people get very angry when I say I'm not voting for either, but I do think that votes have to be earned. And I am, as you know, because we're friends, I'm a very... I'm a very...
intense person and I really internalize things. And I really feel like if I voted for either of them, I would have a hard time sleeping at night and I already have to take melatonin to sleep. So like, I just don't want the guilt of what it means to vote for either of these men. I'll probably end up writing in. Maybe there'll be a third party person who it looks like, you know, I'll get either one elected. I don't know, but I'm not, I'm not doing, I'm opting. I keep saying like, I'm opting out just like I am the next season of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I'm just completely opting out. Like I'm not involved in it. So,
But I will vote down ballot. Like I do vote, like I will exercise the right to like vote in the rest of the race. But like, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over it, Tara. I know that. I'm just fucking over it. Like, I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah.
Just like, I have two kids and I was like, they can do anything but this. I don't want them to do what I do for a living. Anything else. I don't care. Like, but I don't want political anything because it's just, it'll break your heart every single time. And I'm sure when you started in this, did you think this is how we were like, what we're going to be talking about? Like, is the president's brain thing and the same where people are in over and over again? It's like, it's not, it's not the point of this.
I could see you running, though, for office. I don't know. I'm waiting for that day. I would tell you first, but never, never. Look at Arizona right now. I mean, it's like MAGA mothership in the Republican Party. And, you know, my last name's Poison there. Mm-hmm.
In Arizona, you feel like? Or in the party? Yeah, in Arizona. Not in the party in general, but in Arizona, it is like Carrie Lake country. She'll still lose. Arizona is so independent. But they've censured my mom. They censured me, the party. It's like this hostility towards anyone who dares go against their leader, Trump. If you're not like...
but yeah, it makes me really sad. But I also don't have the, like the temperament to run for office. I'm just too like high school. Also, do I look like it's awful? Yeah, but not everyone has talents and that's part of the, why some people rise above and don't in this, in this game. But I wanted to ask you because I feel like as this sort of displaced Republican right now, Nikki Haley, you must have liked her or you do like her now, right? I did. Yeah. I, I,
I was confused why all of the candidates weren't hitting Trump in the jugular when they first were running. Cause it was just like, he's your friend. He's not going to be your pal. And there's no peace in this. Like politics is a blood sport, like get him bleeding. And I didn't understand any of it. I, I want to love her more than I do. Cause I feel like I'm sort of like Taylor to be a Nikki Haley supporter. And she's just like,
I never know exactly where she stands. And I love like a cowboy cowgirl, like tough, intense. This is who I am on either side politician, which may be something of the past. And I also think she was like focus group to hell and probably got in her head about totally reflective of the moment. And, you know, I don't think she's going anywhere. I don't think she's going to win. And I don't think she needs to drop out. She can do whatever she wants, but
I wanted to like her a lot more than I did. And that doesn't mean I hate her or anything like that. I've been perfectly happy with her being president. But, you know, you want to love your kid. You want to be like excited about candidates. And I was like, she's fine. She's fine. Yeah. They,
Then they get into their YOLO phase at the end, right? At the end. And then you're like, oh, there's a human in there. Oh, there's someone who's not completely restrained, restricted, poll tested, speaking their five talking points, some speech. Oh, I'm Margaret Thatcher or whatever. These heels can kick. Yeah, it's a little corny. It's been used so many times. You can feel it when it comes out of their mouth and they're just being human beings. You're like, oh, I kind of trust that person because they're acting like a human.
But it takes them to the end of their campaign where they've got nothing left to start acting like a normal person. Imagine if she had attacked Trump the way she is now in the beginning. It would have set her apart. Yeah, you can get the MAGA people, but I don't know if anyone would. But she's just, like I said, I really... Again, it's like no disrespect. I think it's very hard being a woman in politics in general. But she doesn't really get my blood moving. And I... There's just so many...
I feel like I'm so spoiled. There's so many people in politics that I've just like love, love and have loved. And, you know, I love and excited, like, you know, that answer on this on slavery. I was just like,
Give me a break here. Like, just, you know what I mean? Like, it's just like so indicative of how focused group she is. And the fact that she still thought that like this, like whatever, a base of people who thinks that the civil war was not caused by slavery is a base of people she would want. So my thing was like, how much more will you placate them later? Just be who you are. People want to it. But do you like her?
You know, I thought she was politically talented. Like in the beginning, I, you know, I was impressed with her debate skills compared to the others, even though she does like, she has her word salad moments, right? You know, she wasn't Rhonda Sanders, who was super awkward. It was exciting to see a micro race in New Hampshire between her and Trump. You know, we thought maybe she might have a shot, but you know, she's way too guarded. And almost in the same way that Biden is like, I,
I've been trying to get her to come on the pod and they just won't. And I'm like, now she's doing Charlamagne the God and he's like trashing her over slavery. She's agreed to do SNL but for months she wouldn't even do like NBC or ABC and only do Fox. And it's like, what are you afraid of? You know? And also, you shouldn't be president if you can't do interviews with networks. Yeah. There's just like...
And I don't like preciousness on the part of anyone, Biden or her or whatever. It's like, this is symptomatic. The press holds a purpose for a reason to help you get your message out. And you have to answer tough questions. Like, I don't know why everybody became such a baby. Like, where you're like, I can't answer questions. Like, it's like, that's how it works. And maybe you'll mess up, but maybe
won't. And maybe you'll have a moment that people will really respond to. And honestly, like most journalists for each network, like there's always one person you can point to as a Republican where I'd be like, they're fair. Sit down with them. I mean, like there are still a few in each place and I don't understand this. Like I'm too, I'm too good for it. And it'll screw you. Look, I did not enough people knew her or knew who she was.
Totally. I mean, even if I go on TikTok and I put hashtag Haley, say I'm talking about her, it's like 100 people show up that are using that hashtag. You know what I mean? That's not a good sign. You're not really going... She didn't have her viral moment. People just probably don't really know her or tuned out. So not to say everything is about TikTok, but if everyone's getting their news that way, or on podcasts or Instagram, I just feel like she's
She should be out there more. And also, she's just too controlled. It's a bit much. I think my big takeaway from this is like, screw the consultants. You don't need them. Be who you are. And if you try to win everyone, you'll lose everyone too. So be authentic. I hope
Like if you are hiring consultants that have never won an election or like their past five elections have lost, I don't understand how people like campaign managers and strategists that are like, you know, I worked for Jeb Bush and then I worked for whatever. It's like, if everybody you work for is losing, why are you hiring them? Like, I don't under, I never understood that and how there's like this mentality of so many people in this space where it's like, Oh, I'll be another campaign manager again. I a thousand percent agree with you. It's like, why do you even need them? I think they, they like, they,
pressure you into it. Right. Apparently a lot of people who work for DeSantis worked on the Ted Cruz presidential campaign. And I interviewed someone who was like, he met with them and he was like, has anybody want to campaign here at anything? And again, it's like interesting idea that like, if you're using the same model over and over again, and there's just going to have to be someone who comes out in the next election cycle that just really doesn't
comes out of left field and really changes the game because there's a lot of people doing things the old way and it's not working. Well, they use the Ted Cruz model in Iowa and they lost, which is just like focus on Iowa, focus on Iowa, the first primary, first caucus state, and they lost. So the Ted Cruz model failed. They tried it. You know, he won obviously Iowa, but he couldn't win anything after that. I mean, he won a few states, but not enough. No, I, I a hundred percent agree with you on that. It's in a way to give Trump credit. He, he,
he's not really, he doesn't take advice from consultants, really. He's just, that's what he wants. I mean, he goes into these, now listen, the stuff that he says he spews is based in fear and, you know, it drives people's anxieties, it rides some, like it spurs some of the worst instincts that they have. But I see him in these rallies and he's like testing what people want to hear and what they don't want to hear in real time, almost like
using the audience as a focus group. I think that's when he realized people wanted social security and Medicare. They don't want their entitlements to go away. And it's like, this is something he figured out just from hearing the sides of the crowd roar. You know? Yeah.
yeah it's crazy it's crazy well i guess we could talk about this forever i loved having you on the show megan yeah would love to have you on again and come on as always oh thank you yeah i would love to come on your show again cool cool and you should check out her web series too oh it's just on youtube it's called citizen mccain and it's new and i'm just like
I partnered with this wonderful company who has worked with influencers, like actors and chefs and people like that. And I'm the first political person. So we're both kind of like experimenting together on how to make the space work. It's just like a tiny little web show, but we're having fun. No, it's excellent. And I watched it. You caught my eye on Instagram. And I watched 20 minutes, the perfect amount of time. And...
It really looks amazing, the set, but it's casual. It's like what you see with the influencers, but why aren't there enough political influencers out there that aren't, you know, whatever, Jack Posobiec or Ben Shapiro?
You know what I mean? There should be more female political influencers out there. You just think also people are so busy, as you know. I mean, everybody has something going on, work, whatever, life. And I consume things in much shorter spurts. So I just wanted to do something that was like, whatever if you're like,
cooking, cleaning your house, whatever. You can just like put it on and listen. But it's very new. We've only done three episodes. So let it let me figure it out. But thank you. It's going to be a hit already. So I'm all for it and I'm enjoying it. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you. That was another episode of Somebody's Got to Win.
I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. I want to thank my producers, Kyle Williams and Connor Nevins. If you like this episode, please share it with your friends, subscribe and rate it. If you like my reporting, please go to puck.news.tara.palmeri and sign up for my newsletter, the best and the brightest. You can use the discount code Tara20. I'll be back next week.
