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The Trump years were wild, marked with chaos, leaking, backstabbing, power plays, unceremonious dumping and firing. It was just chaos all the time. The staff was constantly leaking on each other. Trump was taking down his own aides.
It seemed like nothing was actually getting done because there was just so much leaking and no one was really thinking strategically. It was all slapdash. This was the campaigns, White House and the second campaign. But something very strange has happened and there just aren't any palace intrigue stories anymore in any of the papers, really anywhere. You're not hearing aides dump on each other. There's no mass firings. In fact,
There are only 11 people around Trump right now, top advisors, and they're pretty senior. They're veterans, meaning that they have a lot of experience running campaigns and
And they've managed to run a pretty tight ship. And instead of having all the fighting and the backbiting, they're focusing on working GOP state directors to win more delegates. They're trying to work the courts in their favors using very obscure GOP laws so that Trump wins more delegates when he's running in the primaries. They're trying to change primaries to caucuses because they favor Trump. And the DeSantis team is flat footed on this and super annoyed.
and accusing Trump of rigging the election by way of doing this. That's what an officer of their super PAC, Ken Cuccinelli, told the New York Times this weekend. So something has clearly shifted. The Trump campaign is now being described by the LA Times as surgical and operational, incisive. I wrote a whole piece about this. There's a lot of talk about this.
There's something has changed. It's no longer a campaign of dysfunction. Sure. Trump is very dysfunctional. His truth. Social messages are, you know, bat shit. He's saying Hamas is very smart. He's got 91 charges for indictments. He's got a gag orders for intimidating witnesses, jury. It's the whole thing's a mess, but the people around Trump are able to run a campaign effectively and they're able to execute his wishes effectively.
Which makes me think, what would this be like if Trump is in the White House? Will he be able to gut the government? Will he be able to enact revenge? Will he have a bunch of loyalist supplicants around him? Yes, men who were able to do everything. Because a big part of the leaking during the Trump years were people who were trying to thwart his worst instincts, right? If they weren't trying to build their own legacies or gain power or influence or have their policies enacted, they were trying to stop him. But those people don't exist anymore. Right.
And I'm going to talk about what it was like inside the Trump White House in the final year during the campaign with a former deputy press secretary, Sarah Matthews. But first, I just want to give you an update on the speaker's race.
Since we last spoke on Thursday, the speaker nominee, Steve Scalise, withdrew his name before even going to the House floor because he realized he didn't have the votes. You can only lose four votes. And he realized, you know what? I don't have them. He didn't want to do what Kevin McCarthy did and basically see who was going to vote for him and who wasn't. Public humiliation of it all. Instead, his rival, Jim Jordan, is now the speaker nominee, and he will likely go before the House floor and call a vote, I'm being told. That's likely because Trump endorsed him.
And Jim Jordan represents the right flank of the party. He's got a lot of support among the base of the party. And Republicans who dare not to vote for him could face primary challengers themselves. So I think he might be
gaming this out thinking that people who don't want to go up against him because he's so popular with the right wing of the party and they don't want to go up against Trump. Now, is this a losing formula for 2024? Probably yes, because Republicans only have the House right now because they want a handful of seats in upstate New York moderates. And if you primary those guys, you're
you're probably not going to win. Those are like D plus 5, 10 seats that Biden won. So it's a risky strategy. But who knows? Jordan may be Speaker of the House by the next time an episode drops. Until then, let's get into it and just chat about what it's like to work in Trump world with the leaks and the backbiting and what this change might mean. And should everyone be terrified that maybe a more effective Trump organization means...
a more effective White House and his ability to enact revenge and do the things he says he's going to do, gut the federal government. Sarah Matthews, you worked in the White House and you were the deputy press secretary. So you were getting a lot of the incoming inquiries from people like me, reporters trying to confirm our leaks. What was it like to just be there every single day fielding probably some insane information
stories about the president and the people at senior level? Yeah. So I always tell people, I think all four years of Trump's presidency were crazy and chaotic, but I was there the last seven or so months of the administration. And I think that was an especially tumultuous period, probably the most tumultuous period. I mean, we were dealing with
COVID, resurging, George Floyd protests raging across the country when I joined in the summer of 2020.
The president getting COVID, then the election, his effort to try to overturn the election, January 6th. So it was just constantly putting out fires. And I think one thing that really frustrated me when I joined was I knew that leaking was an issue that plagued the Trump administration. But when...
I joined, I kind of thought that, oh, maybe they've gotten their shit figured out and maybe the white house, like the West wing won't be, you know, so chaotic. And, um,
were focused on his reelect. That's what the goal is. We all need to be united behind that goal. And then joining the White House and being in the West Wing every day, I saw that that wasn't the case, that people were constantly trying to undermine one another. Leaking was still happening. And yeah, it felt really counterproductive to what we were there for. And what's so funny to me too is that
I don't know if you can attest to this. I didn't think the leaks were ever really coming from the press team. We were, I feel like actually, at least during my time there, we were pretty good about not leaking. And it was everyone else in the West Wing who was leaking. So you guys were kind of on the defensive, basically, when it comes to leaks. Exactly. So we were just trying to figure out where is this coming from within? Exactly.
And, and it did feel like people were really paranoid and you, you didn't know who you could trust. I had a very small handful of people that I trusted during my time at the white house. And I don't think that's how it should be. I mean, obviously like, I don't know if you can trust everyone 100% of the time and, you know, in Washington DC and politics, like it would be ignorant to think that, but like
At the end of the day, you're, you know, they're working at the pleasure of the president and united behind his agenda. And in that time, especially, we were working to try to get him reelected. And so you would think that people would put those kinds of things aside, but that didn't really seem to be the case. Okay, let's be honest, though. Have you ever leaked? And if so, what was it and why? I...
promise I never leaked unless it was a strategic leak that the press team was aware of. But I never leaked anything during my time at the White House. Who do you think were the biggest leakers? So I think a lot of the big leakers had left prior to joining the White House, like when I joined since I was only there the last seven months or so. But I think the constant...
struggle and power dynamic that existed when I was there was between Mark Meadows and Jared Kushner, with Jared Kushner trying to act as a shadow chief of staff. And so it just felt like they were both constantly trying to undermine one another. And then I think too, when I was there, it felt like the Pence team was leaking a lot. And so we were really frustrated with them. I remember just when I was there. What did you suspect they were leaking about? I felt like it was a lot of the COVID stuff.
and things going on with task force and whatnot. To make Trump look like he wasn't doing enough on COVID, basically. Yeah, exactly. And then it was trying to kind of undermine some of the other folks like Peter Navarro, for example, who stuck his nose in COVID response. And I think that frustrated the Pence team. And so they were leaking things about him and all that. So I felt like they leaked a lot
I can't say I necessarily disagreed with them, but it was frustrating at times when I felt like, hey, okay, we're supposed to all be on the same team here. So really, the point of leaking is you leak to either get your point out in the papers, right? To elevate your position to the president, to try to stop...
his worst instincts, right? Leak what he's about to do, get it out there, maybe create momentum that would stop him from doing it. To take out your enemies, to protect yourself, have relationships with the press in case your enemies come for you, to get your own agenda out there. Like why else would people leak? Yeah, I think you kind of hit most of the big reasons on the head. It's just like people...
doing it to try to elevate themselves or undermine others. Or at times, they leaked things to try to steer the White House in a better direction, kind of curb the president's worst instincts. And so it felt like those leaks they were doing, yeah, not...
to help the president. And, um, and I can't say I disagreed with like some of those things people were doing, but definitely as a press office staffer, it was quite frustrating at times, um, dealing with those things and being like, how the heck did this reporter figure this out? Like, who were they talking to? Who is their source? And so definitely made my, uh, job a lot more difficult. What was like the most hellacious leak that you had to deal with? Honestly, like the first one that popped into my mind was,
was the leak about the Atlantic story and the former president calling the, um,
people who had died and were prisoners of war, like suckers and losers. Yeah, that was horrible. Yeah, that was a really tough one to deal with. And I mean, I at the time was told that it was not true. And so we pushed back fiercely on it. And now it's really interesting to just see like years later,
people, you know, come forward and attach their name to it. Like, I believe it was John Kelly speaking up to the press. Just like last week, he finally admitted that he was a leaker on that. Exactly. And so it was like,
tough when at that time in the White House, like, okay, this is an awful story for the president. And if it's true, then why wouldn't someone attach their name to it? They're coming out anonymously and saying this. And so we felt like we were told from the most senior people and the president himself that this was not true and to push back. And we did. And so now it's kind of frustrating looking back on it and defending some of the stuff that I did defend. And
and I, but I kind of wish those people like had come forward. Cause like John Kelly wasn't even in the white house at that time. So there was really no excuse. He should have just gone on the record and said it. Yeah, exactly. It's like one thing I feel like if you're in the white house and you're doing like leaks anonymously, cause you're kind of like protecting your position. And even if you're doing so to, um, and in their eyes, they thought, you know, maybe I'm leaking something to try to, um, like steer,
steer the country in the right direction, curb the president's worst instincts, all of that, and put some sunlight on these things. But for him now, I'm like, what the heck? Why didn't you just come forward at the time if you were so worried about Trump being reelected again? But that was the first kind of like leak that came to mind. But I don't even know if that one counts like in terms of now knowing like who the source was. Sarah, how did Trump feel about the leaks?
I think he was frustrated by them. You know, he did like to pit people against each other, but then some of these leaks made him look bad. And so maybe if they were leaks about other people like the White House staff, that's one thing. But when they're damaging leaks against him, then it would upset him. I know that, like I mentioned that Atlantic story, that will like really upset him. And
And obviously now we know it to be true. But at the time I was told I wasn't on air force one with him when that story came out, but I was told by folks who were on air force one with him, he was like, like ghostly. Like he was like distraught. And like, I remember seeing this image of him like walking off the plane and he
His like tie was like loosened and he kind of looked a little disheveled and you know, that's not Trump. Like he always looks so put together. And I remember thinking like, Oh wow, this really must be a fake story then because like he does look upset, you know, now in hindsight, knowing that this story was true, it's because he was upset that like some of the people that he trusted and were most senior were leaking these damaging things about him at a time when like
he was worried about his election prospects. And then like that story came out and that was really damaging in terms of like a huge portion of his support in the base are like people in the military. That's what I was going to say. I think this is more about his base and about him being afraid during an election year to have alienated his base with such a cruel comment.
I think he's a political animal and he didn't really care about the comment. And I think he loved the gang of rivals. He enjoyed the drama. The way that he fired people. I mean, the fact that it leaked...
that they fired Rex Tillerson, who was Secretary of State and before that was the CEO of Exxon. They fired him and it leaked that he was on the toilet in Africa with food poisoning. He enjoyed discarding people in the most embarrassing of fashions. He relished in the leaks, I'm sure, on his own staff.
just as long as it didn't touch him. Right. Yeah. He like, he didn't care as long as it didn't impact him and his image or his reputation with the base, because that is like all he was ever concerned about was keeping the base happy. And that drove like 99% of what he did was just trying to maintain them and keep them happy. And so, yeah, something like that Atlantic story, um,
obviously doesn't play well with the base. And so I think in that sense, he would get really upset about leaks. Did you ever have to deal with him after a leak? Like, did you ever work with him directly? And did he ever scream at you or... Oh my god, I'm trying to remember like what the story was. But I remember that something was running and you know, there's a leak and I had to go to him and tell him what was going to be published. And...
I just remember him like screaming at me and Kaylee McEnany was with me and we were back in like the oval dining room. Cause that's where he was at. And like, we walked away and she, she just like apologized to me and was like, I'm so sorry. What did he scream? Like, what did he say? What were the words? Yeah. He was like screaming, like about who he thought leaked it.
and just like trying to guess like who leaked it. And he was saying to you like, was it this? Do you remember the names that he was telling you? Yeah. Like I, I know I'm like trying to remember like in jog my memory right now. It was a trauma. I literally like, I probably like pushed it out of my mind. Um, because I was like, yeah, definitely the angriest I had ever like seen him and like been on the receiving end of that anger. And, um, and,
The name is escaping me at this moment, but he just was spouting off like, screw this person. It was this person. I know it was. And tell them it's not true. And
Yeah. And so that I just, I remember getting upset though about that kind of stuff and leaks and even like, yeah, just anything like that, like that would upset him if it was damaging to him. Do you remember the story? Dan Coats, the director of national intelligence, he was screaming that there was like this bad story coming out about something national security related. Can't remember the exact details, but we went to him, you know,
Had to obviously say, okay, sir, they're running this. You know, obviously if you think it's not true, we're going to push back. Like, can you tell us like what your memory of this was? And he was like, of course it's not true. And then he, we didn't even say who the source was. And I don't even know if the source was Dan Coates, but he starts screaming like, oh, screw this guy. Like, I know it was him. And it was just so like,
Yeah, it was a little scary because most of my interactions with him up until that point were pretty friendly. He was a funny guy. And we always had small talk conversations. One of those things, he knew I was on Kaylee McEnany's team, but I didn't really know my name. But it was always...
pleasant, but that was the first like bad story I had to bring to him. And so then I saw the anger come out and, um, and since I was delivering the news, it was fired directly at me and he was just screaming. And so, um, yeah, I think leaks like that, uh,
really upset him and he was paranoid about who it was and they know them being out to get him and all of that. Okay. Sarah, but when he, you say he was yelling and screaming at you, was he saying screw him? Or was he saying fuck him? Was he like a high pitch scream or a low one? Was he throwing things? Like how did he act? Was his, were his hands flailing? Was he banging the desk? Like how does he act? Yeah. He, he was sitting like at the, um,
at his chair in the Oval Office dining room. And I was kind of standing in the doorway when I told him and... Fox News was playing in the background, right? Yeah, of course. And I told him about this specific story and whatnot. And then he...
starts yelling and it wasn't like high pitched or anything. And then, yeah, definitely had some curse words thrown in there. And he, yeah, he was just really like angry and kind of dismissive too. And just like, didn't really want to like talk to me or Kaylee anymore and wanted us to just go take care of it. And so I just remember kind of
walking away. And I had known that Kaylee did her best, honestly, to try to shield the press team from a lot of this because she knew his temper and anger. And, um, and so she actually really didn't kind of usually have me go take these kinds of like bad stories to him. And she would often just, um,
bear the brunt of it. And so I remember her just apologizing to me afterward. And she was like, Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, I had to deal with that. But she did try to shield the team a lot from that, I think, because she didn't want everyone to just have to deal with that. But... That comes with the job. Yeah, exactly. It comes with the job. You're going to have to tell your principal bad news sometimes, especially doing comms and tell them things they don't want to hear and
bad news stories that are coming out. And so it's not like I, uh, hadn't experienced it before I had worked for other politicians in the past. So, but Trump, I think his kind of anger was to a whole nother level. Really? I, you know what? I don't know. I think a lot of, uh,
uh politicians can get like that just like hearing the stories I've heard from folks but like you hadn't personally seen someone react that way yeah I hadn't been necessarily on the receiving end like that um I think I had witnessed a lot of other politicians yell at people but had largely escaped it in my career and so it was interesting to be on the receiving end of it
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So what do you make of this leak-free campaign? Yeah, it is kind of interesting to look at it and see that it has been fairly leak-free and a much more sophisticated operation. And I feel like it's because the people who are left around him, they have to be the most loyal of loyal to him. But I also kind of think that they...
Like, in a sense, like, sure, they're loyal, but they...
know that they have like their job prospects probably aren't great anywhere else. So they have no one else to be loyal to, but like, I don't know who the hell would hire Jason Miller outside of Trump, but you know, that's just me. And so I don't know. Yeah. It seems like the folks who are left surrounding him, if they are standing by him, even after all of the election lies, even after January 6th, even after four indictments, then they, um,
uh, probably aren't going to be leaking. And, um, so I guess it is kind of funny to see like the change and all of that. But I also think too, a lot of the kind of most prominent leakers who were a part of the, you know, 2016 campaign and, uh, the administration and all of that aren't involved in this election effort. And so that could be too, like, you know, just thinking like names that come to mind, like, I think like,
you know, Jared and Ivanka, like they are nowhere to be seen part of the 2024. Right. So I think that could be a part of it too. Yeah. I loved all those Jared and Ivanka think paragraphs in every New York times, Politico, Washington post story, how they disagree with what Trump is doing, but they're staying in the white house. It's like, okay, I wonder where that's coming from. Exactly. It was always about like maintaining their image. So it's,
It's funny to see. Yeah. The whole story came to mind because I was thinking, wow, they're actually running a pretty sophisticated, professionalized operation where they're thinking about things that they never did before. It was always very slapdash and people fighting for power, you know, just kind of like,
burning money on outlandish things like buying Super Bowl ads and Brad Parscale in 2020 and Jared Kushner both running a campaign they called the Death Star. They burned through $1.6 billion. And then before that in 2016, you had Corey Lewandowski, who was a small ball player who got
you know, brought his own TMZ antics along with it when he grabbed Michelle Fields by the arm, that reporter. And then you had Paul Manafort, who was like this weirdo international man of mystery being paid by the Ukrainians. And then, you know, obviously Jared comes along and you have these big egos like Chris Christie and Kellyanne Conway. And it's just like...
It's a whole pot of like people who want to be on TV and they want to be famous and they want to be, you know, known by one name. And they really, they really have become that way. Like Cher, like Kellyanne is almost like Cher, right? The Mooch, Scaramucci. He's like...
You know, people talk about how long did someone last? How many Scaramucci's did they last? But even on his economics team, like Dina Powell, she kind of became known as just like Dina. And it's like and Steve Bannon was known as Bannon. It was just like everyone had become a caricature or a character like outside of the White House. They were like players on The Apprentice almost. Right. And Trump loved all the dysfunction. He pitted everyone against each other. Right. Spicer, you know.
Reince Priebus, the whole thing. It was a mess. I covered it for a few years. And yeah, it was definitely easy to report. I was getting leaks all the time, either leaking against colleagues or leaking to stop the president from...
his worst instincts, like you said, or it was leaking to, you know, put out your agenda, get it in front of the president so that you can like say, oh, this is a great idea. This is what, you know, Politico is writing where I was, or let's tank this idea that Steve Bannon has and get it out there and say what they're working on. Everybody was working their agendas because there really was no gatekeeper at the time. There was no like decision-making process at the time. Yeah.
it was just a gang of rivals all trying to kill each other. So yeah, I remember this time in the white house really well. Um, it was super chaotic to me. Um, and it was, it was really crazy, but you know, I, you know, I cover the Trump campaign. I cover all the campaigns. Um, and I just noticed that like,
it's just not leaky. There are only 11 staffers. There's not even a campaign manager. Whereas before people used to fight for the campaign manager title or the chief of staff title, no one will take it. It's like they know it's like an impending doom to take it. So you have Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita. They're basically co-campaign managers, but they just call themselves senior advisors. And you have Jason Miller there at the top two. And then you have about
eight more staffers. That's really small for a campaign, but they're being praised in the press for being like surgical and methodical about trying to change the delegate process so that it's winner takes all and going into the courts and trying to change just like obscure GOP laws at the state level to help Trump win. Like they're snapping up endorsements and they're working the state GOP party chairman. They're trying to switch from primary to caucuses. So like they're actually like running a real campaign and,
And, yes, there's tons of legal dysfunction, right? I mean, he's under... He's got four indictments, 91 charges. You've got tons of leaks just coming out of that, right? All the crimes he committed every day. And you've also got his tweets that are insane, like what last week... I mean, calling Hamas very smart. How do you even defend that, right? Or...
Weirdly comparing his body to Biden's and like talking about like the Patriots and all the other weird shit that comes out of his mouth. Put that aside if you can. But if you want to talk about the campaign, he's leading all the other candidates by like 50 points.
And they're kind of doing laps around the other campaigns. And I was talking to the other campaigns and they're like, listen, they're actually, they really are running a better campaign than us. I think that's kind of an interesting point you bring up too. But I feel like it's because the Trump campaign doesn't really have to campaign right now. Like they're so far ahead of all the other...
primary candidates that they can kind of just sit back and like coast to the nomination. And that's, what's really frustrating for me, like as a Republican voter, there are too many freaking people in this race at this point. Like if we actually wanted to mount a challenge against him to defeat him in a primary, then, um,
Folks need to be dropping out. But these people are more concerned with hopefully landing a plum position in a Trump administration or being picked as his running mate. And so they're staying in the race. And if we actually wanted to defeat him, then we need to narrow the field. And there's no reason why some of these folks pulling out like one percent are still in the race. And so, yeah, so Trump and his team know this. They don't need to go out and spend money. They don't need to go participate in the debates. Why would they?
They would be giving air to his opponents. And so they are just going to sit back and coast to the nomination while these Republicans repeat the same mistakes of 2016. Because like the only way you're going to defeat him is if we're able to
around, uh, support around one other alternative candidate because like Trump has a lock on about 40% at the base, but, but still leaves like 60% of people who are open to an alternative or folks who would never vote Trump. And so it's frustrating, but I think that they just know that they, they don't have to really be out there, you know, doing the rallies and all of that stuff. And, but I wonder how that's going to change going into a general, uh,
Because like, they don't want to be spending money because they need to save money for his legal battles and for paying legal fees of, you know, his staff and folks like that. And so it's really interesting because right now they can get away with it, but I don't know how long term they're going to be able to get away with it. I think you're right about that. I mean, general elections are much more expensive. Um,
than a primary. He does make a lot of money off these indictments though. I don't know if any more are coming. He has really big legal fees. You're absolutely right about that, but they have been pretty smart about just like using certain press events to like up,
stage their opponents. For example, when Ron DeSantis did his big sit-down interview with Jake Tapper, Trump announces midway through that he gets a letter from Jack Smith saying he's been indicted. And so CNN cuts away from Ron DeSantis and goes right to Trump. You've got the United Auto Workers picketing in Detroit. And instead
And while Biden is still making up his mind whether he should go to the picket line or not, you got Trump saying, I'm going to Detroit and I'm going to talk there, you know, during the GOP debate or before it. I can't remember exactly when. But he certainly used his, like, name ID and he's used his bully pulpit, essentially, the built-in bully pulpit that he has to take down his other opponents. Does that work against Biden? I kind of think it does because I don't think Biden really has much of a bully pulpit himself. Yeah. I doubt the two of them are really going to be on the road together.
I think this is going to be like 2020. I think it's going to be like two basement campaigns, one from, one from the white house and one from Mar-a-Lago. And that's just how it's going to go. I know. Like, and it's so funny too, because like prior to joining the white house, um, uh,
Like I said, I joined like the last seven months of the admin. I was on the 2020 campaign and I was on the road for like a year working as a spokesperson over there. And that was something we constantly attacked the, uh,
Biden 2020 campaign for was, Oh, you know, Joe is in his basement. Where's Joe? Where's sleepy Joe. And now it seems like the Trump 2024 campaign is like, Oh, you know what? Maybe he's onto something. Maybe it is good for Trump to just be, you know, in the shadows and not really like out there as much, and then be a little bit more strategic with when we, um,
put him places or do events or things. Like you said, the timing of these things where they're, you know, kind of thwarting like DeSantis's first big mainstream media interview or, um, you know, kind of counter-programming the GOP debates. Like it's genius and it is smart. And they seem to have, uh,
a little bit more control over him in that regard. Because I know at least when I was on the 2020 campaign, it was... He wanted constant rallies all the time. He loved doing them. Yeah. Got off on it. Yeah. Got off on it. And now I wonder...
I think it's A, they don't want to spend the money on rallies because they're expensive and they need that for legal fees. They cost half a million dollars. And so now they're doing two per month and they're relying more on videos, telethons, and these like smaller 3,000 person events. Exactly. And then I think too, like they...
they maybe see like the advantage that Biden had in the 2020 campaign. And they've kind of learned from it a bit. You think the advantage of being not so present in everyone's life? Yeah. And I think too, like him being off Twitter has helped, you know, people, his posts on truth social just don't penetrate through as much, even if they've gotten increasingly erratic and crazier. I mean, yeah. Like you mentioned, I mean, like the,
the recent post he had where he's attacking Netanyahu and, um, praising like Hezbollah terrorists. Like that's insane. And, um, those are things that you would think would be talked about a little bit more, but,
Yeah, I think like they don't punch, like they don't really have the same impact though as like his tweets once did. And so I think like him kind of not being as much in the spotlight and the tweets, not getting, you know, as much attention maybe has helped him a bit. My only thing is like, I think that when he's president again, if he becomes president again, we will have to cover his truths because there'll be administration statements, right? Right now he's a candidate. So journalists don't,
really have to cover him the same way. That would be my thinking on it. And that's why we're not covering his truths in the same way that we covered his tweets. But I think if he becomes president again and he's using truth social, we will cover the truths the way we covered the tweets. Yeah. And I think that's right. I think you guys definitely like it would be more of a statement from the president and it would carry more weight. And I mean, I think too, he'll probably...
I would think at that point, maybe get back on Twitter too. But even though... Well, I guess it's X now. Whatever. Right. But yeah, that is something too that...
people kind of forget how chaotic it was when he was firing off all these different tweets. And so that isn't as much in the forefront of people's minds anymore. And I think it's definitely helped him a bit. But I just don't know. Yeah, I think that the current campaign operation that he has is vastly different in all the better ways in the sense of them doing the work of...
Trying to, you know, like you said, trying to change primary laws to benefit him and working with county party officials, all of that. Those are things that certainly 2020, it didn't seem like they were focused on at all. And so there wasn't as much emphasis on. And so this lien operation happened.
definitely benefits him. But you can only control Trump so much. He's his own worst enemy. And so they've done a decent job of it right now because he doesn't have to be in the spotlight as much for this primary, but in a general that is going to, I think, prove a lot more difficult. Okay. Here's one thing I want to point out. There is one really big change. So Susie Wiles is running the campaign and she's kind of like this grandma
She almost kind of looks like Paula Deen a little bit, like has these big blue eyes, kind of gray hair, very like charming, sweet, docile type of person. And she has actually been at the top of the Trump political organization the longest out of anyone. And mainly because she doesn't want to like get credit for anything. She won't even take the campaign manager title. And she's figured out like basically how to
deal with Trump and like how to get people to have access to him, how to make a process work, all of it. So I think we have to like also think about the fact that like he just has a different team. And like you said, you mentioned that some, maybe these people can't work in other places. I mean, she has a job at Mercury. There's just a different team. And Chris LaCivita came from FP1, which is a big shop in New York.
in advertising, PR, public affairs shop in Washington, D.C. And he's considered like a top veteran campaign consultant. So he has like some decent people now. He only has a few of them, but he's got some good people on his team. And I just sort of like wonder what would a leak-free Trump administration look like? Like, would he just be able to execute his worst instincts and
And would he just be able to enact revenge on everyone? Would he be able to gut the government, the federal government, the way he wants to, that Schedule F plan that they have? Do you think it'll just be a small band of loyalists who are able to just kind of supplicants to give him everything he needs and to let him execute even...
the worst things. I'm just sort of trying to paint a picture for our listeners of, you know, what should we expect? Is the Trump White House going to be like the Trump campaign? Yeah, I do kind of wonder that. And that is a concern of mine. If Trump were to ever be president again, it's like who would be staffing him in a second administration? Because if you look at the end of his first administration, he was
stopped listening to the people who were telling him the truth and what he didn't want to hear, which was that he had lost the election. There was zero evidence of fraud and started listening to the people who were telling him what he wanted to hear and listening to the crazy conspiracy theories. Like Rudy Giuliani. Exactly. Like the Rudy Giuliani's and Sidney Powell's. And I think then...
That worries me for a second administration if he were to be president because I think he's going to surround himself with yes men who are going to say and do exactly what he wants and carry out all of his orders rather than maybe trying to curb his worst instincts. And that's really scary to me. I mean, like, I think to myself, like, my God, like, who would he put as like Attorney General? Yeah.
You know, like who would be staffing a Trump cabinet and like things like that? Because he, I, he wants to weaponize DOJ to like enact revenge on his political enemies. And so like that kind of stuff is really scary to me to think about. I know judge Janine Piro, obviously. Yeah.
Oh my God. But seriously, it would be all these like TV people that he would put them in those jobs. Like Larry Kudlow. Like the 2024 campaign team is like 11 people you said, but like, then when you get to like staffing a whole administration, that changes like, and I don't think he's necessarily going to be able to like control everything. But like, if he's putting in some of these kinds of like,
crazy people who aren't necessarily qualified. Because I think a lot of us can look back at the Trump administration and be like, you know what? No, he actually did place a lot of really good qualified people in positions of power. But I don't know if that would be the same necessarily this go around. And so that is a little concerning to me. And I don't know. I think that some of these people...
know better too. And it's shocking to me that they want to help reelect or put him back in office because...
they are more concerned with their own political ambition than like maybe what's good for the country. And I just don't think a second term of Trump would be good when he's talking about things like wanting to erode our checks and balances and get, you know, and put more power in the executive branch. Like he, he doesn't care about democracy. He wants to make it into a dictatorship kind of in my eyes in a second term. I don't think you're the only person who sees that, but
Yeah, I mean, there's really no saying what would happen if he was only surrounded by people who were trying to execute his agenda at all times. I do think also, though, with the campaign, it's going to have to get bigger. But I heard that the core, the core 11 people around him will stay the same.
and that the field will get bigger, like their state directors and their people on the ground, but they won't be adding as many people. I've also heard that, you know, a big part of the leaking from Trump was that he would call his friends up and float things to them and ask for advice.
And then they would call reporters and tell them about it. So it was a lot of the leaking was actually coming from him, at least in the beginning of the administration. I remember that. It's a crazy thing to think about Trump without the guardrails, right? Yeah. That's very scary to me because I know even like, I didn't necessarily have that kind of like close relationship with him when I was there, but just like talking with folks who, you know,
would hear some of the things he would suggest or float or want to do and how they would be like, I don't know if that's the best idea, boss. And try to steer him on the right path. And I think those types of folks are not going to be in the room with him in a second administration if he was president again. They are not really going to push back on him. And so that's scary to me. I still think that...
when it comes to actually staffing a White House, you need a lot more people than 11 people, right? Like, there are going to be people that slip in there and maybe they hate Trump. Maybe they just have very little feeling about him at all. And then they'll probably end up leaking anyway. But, you know, I know a lot of the people that did leak felt like they were doing it to, you know, save democracy or, you know, thwart his worst instincts.
I don't know, maybe he's killed. They'll be able to actually plug the leaks, you know? It's going to be interesting too. Cause like, I mean, I don't think there's going to be like any shortage of people who would sign up to go work for him, but like they have said that like anyone who's associated with like DeSantis campaign, like blacklisted immediately, like not going to get a job in a second Trump term. And like,
So they are going to have to like pull those people from somewhere. And you're right. Like I think some would sneak through who maybe aren't, you know, necessarily like the most loyal Trump people, but they're like, yeah, I'll take a job in the administration. And then like, even some of like the Republican politicians who want to get those plum positions and, you know, the cabinet or what have you like, yeah, like their, their people like are going to be behind them and not maybe necessarily like,
Trump loyalists. Matt Gaetz gets a cabinet's position or something like that, right? Oh my God. Yeah, no, exactly. That's like, that's who's going to be like making up the cabinet or folks like that. Just unserious people. Marjorie Taylor Greene gets what cabinet position do you think she'd get? Oh my God.
I don't even know. I don't even know what she would want. Secretary of Education? I mean... Probably. It's going to just... Yeah, it's going to be unserious people like that, though, who are going to be staffing him. And so I... That's why I feel like I've been sounding the alarm on this and out there talking about these things. But right now, it's...
It's frustrating to me because like I said earlier, it seems like other Republicans are just more concerned with their own political ambition. And that's why you're not seeing people either speak out against these things or like folks in the primary drop out. Privately, I think they hold a lot of these same sentiments, but publicly, they're not going to go out and say them because they don't want to...
you know, upset Trump and put a target on their back. And they think that there is a chance they could be like VP or something. It's just like, that's exactly why Washington is so broken and it's frustrating, but I don't know. We'll have to see like what happens. So suffice to say, you are not going back to the Trump administration if he wins. Is that correct? Absolutely.
Absolutely not. Yeah. I think I made it very clear resigning on January 6th, where my head is at in terms of my support for Trump. And you testified before the January 6th committee. Yeah, exactly. Testified against him in front of the January 6th committee about what I had witnessed that day and what I felt like was a dereliction of duty on his part. And I have
have been really outspoken too just about the election lies and I kind of wish maybe I had come out a little bit sooner to talk about it because um I knew on election night that Trump lost and I think I felt like this weird sense of loyalty to just stay on board and finish out the administration um
and just kind of, you know, kept my mouth shut, even though I didn't really agree with the lies and conspiracies that were being pushed. And then obviously that all kind of came to a head with January 6th itself. And, um, and yeah, and so I've been very outspoken though, that, uh, it's,
frustrating that, you know, he continues to push that lie and that other Republicans are silent about it as well. On that note, I think we'll end it. Thanks, Sarah, for being on the show. And we'll check back in with you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much for listening.
This was Somebody's Gotta Win. I'll be back again on Thursday. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins for this episode. If you like my reporting, please sign up for my newsletter, The Best and the Brightest. You can find it at puck.news slash Tara Palmieri. And you can use a discount code Tara20 for 20% off. If you like this show, please subscribe, rate it and share it with your friends. See you again on Thursday.
