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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri, and welcome back to Somebody's Gotta Win. It's another historic week. Another U.S. president is facing an impeachment inquiry. Once a rare phrase to be uttered, not so much anymore. Sure, it's not impeachment yet, but the word President Joe Biden and impeachment are now firmly cemented in the same sentence.
Speaker Kevin McCarthy launched this partisan congressional investigation without a full House vote, likely because he couldn't get his more moderate members to okay it. But it gives congressional investigators access to things like Biden's financial records, his tax statements, bank accounts, emails, subpoenas for testimonies,
And whether this investigation actually leads to impeachment, which no one can say, it will most likely lead to a hard vote for Republicans in congressional seats that voted for Biden. So it could end up backfiring on the Republicans. It feels right now like a bit of a fishing expedition because so far the Republicans have found nothing over nine months of investigation that proves that Biden committed some sort of high crime or misdemeanor as vice president.
They say that Biden lied on the debate stage when he said that Hunter Biden didn't make money from China and that he lied about a meeting with one of Hunter's Ukrainian clients. These are two small facts that Republicans are pouring gasoline over to create a fire.
Will this inquiry allow them to dig up more damaging information on Joe Biden and his family during the campaign season, much like how the Benghazi investigation into Hillary Clinton not only dogged her with unflattering press when she was secretary of state and candidate for president, but also opened up a whole new can of worms, her email servers.
It's not lost on anyone that Trump publicly demanded on Truth Social that McCarthy, quote, impeach the bum. I guess he's referring to Joe Biden, right? And that many of his hardline MAGA extremist House Freedom Caucus allies are the ones who've been putting pressure on Kevin McCarthy to impeach Joe Biden.
Is this just a way to placate, you know, the leader of the Republican Party and most likely 2024 nominee for president?
who is obviously hungry for revenge after being impeached twice. Is this just a way to add some legal baggage to his opponent, Joe Biden? While their own candidate, a likely Republican nominee who will face 91 indictments, will be probably in court most days on the campaign trail, they would like to point to the fact that perhaps Joe Biden has equally damaging legal baggage? Or is this just more unpleasant noise around Trump
two candidates that most Americans just aren't thrilled to vote for. Up until now, Biden has only made general attacks against Republicans. He calls them MAGA extremists. And he rarely goes after Donald Trump directly by name.
But every day that Trump blames Biden for using his Justice Department to investigate him, and there's no response from Biden himself, some Democrats in Biden's orbit fear that Trump is defining him. You know, Biden keeps pivoting to the economy, and that issue doesn't seem to be really resonating with voters. They say they can't feel it. There are a lot of Democrats who are close to Biden who worry that by not punching back at Trump,
Trump is defining him. Trump is filling the void around Biden. One of those Democrats is former Biden White House official Michael LaRosa. He is one of Biden's most ardent defenders, but he's also willing to call out his former colleagues for not defending his former boss the right way. We spoke on Monday before the impeachment inquiry was called, but he talks about his concern that the president isn't fighting back hard enough against the impression that there is corruption in his family.
He also talks to me about what the White House is getting wrong on messaging around Biden's age, the economy and impeachment and whether there's any chance that Biden doesn't run. And he talks about what it's like to work for Joe Biden. There are so many impressions about our current president, but La Rosa talks about what it's actually like to work for him.
So I've got Michael LaRosa with me. I have known Michael LaRosa since he was a booker on Chris Matthews' show. When was that, Michael? God, I was there from 2010 to 2017. So somewhere. But I remember booking you when you were with The Post. You were a good guest.
Thank you. Nobody wants to mess with a New York Post reporter, I'll tell you that much. Yeah, I think I was like 25 at the time. So thank you. I think that was my big MSNBC debut. Thanks so much for that. You're welcome. You're welcome. It worked out. Then you went to work for Senator Maria Cantwell on the Powerful Commerce Committee, then Speaker Nancy Pelosi, then you were on the Biden campaign, and you most recently worked in the Biden White House for the First Lady.
What is it like to work for Joe Biden? Well, and first of all, I should say, technically, I worked for his wife, Shi Hai. But at the same time, yes, I was special assistant to the president in the White House. And in theory, the spouse is a... Not in theory, in practice, the spouse is a supporting actor to their spouse running for office. So yes, technically, look, Joe Biden is...
He is whip smart and has, first of all, I lasted three years between the campaign and the White House. I mean, this man's been doing this for 45 years. He's more mentally fit and more physically fit.
than anybody his age, that's for sure. But he's incredibly, incredibly intuitive and smart. And, you know, like, he knows when...
he's being played or he knows when you're BSing him. Like he sees right through you. He hasn't lost a beat. He has more, I mean, he has more energy than I have clearly because otherwise I'd still be there. I was just exhausted. But I mean, a lot of the work falls on the staffers too. Let's be honest, like the grunt work, the hard stuff. But I mean, you know, look, he's going all day long. He and his wife are reading briefing books all night long.
Their travel schedule is nuts. I mean, I give them a lot of credit. I mean, certainly my grandparents couldn't have done it. I don't even know if my parents could live their lifestyles. So I'm in awe of the two of them at their age for as long as they've been doing it, are still doing it. But one time we were prepping...
Dr. B for The View. She was going on The View the next day, and I think she was also doing a Fox show, I think Dana Perino. And we were doing it virtually, because I think it was the summer, it was like early July, late June of 2020. And
She was sitting on the back porch of her of her home in Wilmington. And and he came he he walked over and joined. And and when he joins, we kind of like just nod and because, you know, she's not going to talk in policy terms the way he can. And she's not going to be. But I think there was some nervousness that maybe that she was going to get called out for.
You know, being against the Iraq war when he supported it and he's he's kind of he was really funny. He was kind of like, well, look, this is really what happened and like going through it. And he was like, Michael, are you paying attention? And I was via Zoom. And so it was like, yeah.
One time he ever snapped at me, but he could tell. He thought like I wasn't listening because you could see through Zoom, you know? Right, right, right. He was like, are you paying attention? He didn't know whether I was paying attention or ignoring him or like off in la-la land. No, he knows exactly what he was doing. And, you know, there was one time actually...
two years ago today. I'll never forget it. And I probably shouldn't tell this story, but we were, we were, it was nine 11 and we were there in New York for the 20th anniversary, but we were, um, hopping around. So we went from New York to Pittsburgh. We were on our way to, we were in flight on our way to, from New York to, um, the, the Pittsburgh, you know, the Pittsburgh area where the, where flight 93 went down. And, um,
He had saw the logistics plan, I think, and he was looking at it. Because the president and first lady, their footsteps, their mobility is planned to AT, like to a minute, to a second. Everything is coordinated. Every step they make, every turn they make is all pre-planned. And he came back from...
From his cabin to where, you know, all like this, the staff was sitting at a conference table and he he was like, this this isn't right. I've been there three or four times. It's like this. This makes no sense. This makes absolutely no sense. And he was so angry. He didn't yell. He didn't yell at anybody.
He, he, he did something even worse. Yeah. The silent. Yeah. Well, kind of basically very quiet, but he was just very, you know, I'm disappointed. Right. You know, I'm frustrated. Right.
And it was like, oh man, that makes you feel even worse because you don't want to let people down. We all kind of failed that day on that leg. And he was probably right. But that's my way of saying the guy...
has, you know, by far surpassed, I don't know, Lyndon Johnson in terms of how much he's been able to achieve in just one term. Brought back bipartisanship when everybody said he couldn't, when his own party said he couldn't. You know, I don't know if he's getting the credit he deserves for being as effective. You might not agree with what he's done, but he's been incredibly effective as a first-term president. He's accomplished what most presidents do in eight years. So I'm not a fan of the
The caricature of him, right? The character. Yeah. How do you actually correct that? I mean, that was sort of what I wanted to have you on to talk about is this idea that there is this void that is being filled and the void is filling a caricature of Joe Biden, um,
that you are saying does not reflect the man that you know. And I mean, when I see him speak publicly, like there are gaffes. We know that. And he speaks very emotionally. And it's kind of interesting because his staff can be so technical in their language. Like we're drawing contrast and Bidenomics, which I guess is a play on Reaganomics, right? But like... Not a fan of
Yeah, we can talk about that. I know you're not a fan of that. We can talk about that. But there just seems to be like this void that is being filled about who Joe Biden is and Joe Biden is not able to fill that or fight back or people just aren't buying it. They believe the caricature. I just, I don't know, Michael, you've been working for him. Like this must be a, you know, a sort of stressful and maybe perhaps frustrating part of your job. I think it's frustrating for certainly everyone
his family certainly for his staff because they're working so hard and he's working so hard and his schedule is insane i was looking at it you know yesterday in vietnam like like the meetings he it was like 13 meetings in one day and the guy's on a different time zone he's across the world like and so yeah it's it's frustrating but look it's his age you can't change it i think you and i talked about this april like
The best thing you can do with a vulnerability is to turn a strength into a weakness and shine a light on it. And you know what? Actually, I think that he's been doing that more and more by like talking about, you know, age with age brings wisdom. But it also brings like tripping on sandbags and like kind of that kind of, you know, I know they blame this trip. Jared Ford was a college athlete, one of the most fit presidents we ever had. And he,
I think he tripped down Air Force One steps two or three times. He was mocked as a dunce by Chevy Chase on SNL.
Right. I guess we have this media now that's like 24 hours cable. And then we had the internet clips on the RNC makes clips of any time he looks like he's wandering or lost. And they're very powerful. And he's 81. So they're taking, you know, specific incidents that are somewhat common amongst human beings. You know, remember when George Bush choked on a pretzel? I mean...
Nobody said he was too old to do the job. I mean, people made fun of him, I think. But like if that had happened to Biden, it would be like a crisis right now. Like we got to find. Oh, absolutely. Because it speaks to the heart of the anxiety of what he'll be like when he's 86 at the end of the term. Well, as an 81 year old, he and as a Democrat, from my perspective, I mean.
The wish list of... As you and I were just talking about, the things that I was working on in Pelosi's office for messaging went over to the graveyard. And he...
He resurrected them himself, like in the first year, Rx drugs, climate change provisions, reauthorizing the Violence Against Women Act, things as simple as that, gun safety, all these things he was able to get done and do it in a bipartisan way when people said he couldn't. You know, but here's the thing. We're talking about this right now.
This is what they love more than anything. He himself, I don't think the staff so much, he loves being an underdog. He loves expectations. And kind of right now, all the op-eds that you're seeing lately and all the chatter is just setting him up again to kind of exceed expectations. I have heard that theory that it's actually a good thing that these...
all show that he and Trump are tied at 47-47. So all those independents or whatever, 8% or 9% independents who are undecided right now, it might convince them to vote for Biden. And if you keep hearing this, that maybe that'll change the game. I don't know. We've got a year to go. The one thing I'll say is that if it's Trump, I don't think the candidates
the campaign will take Trump for granted. It is going to be Trump. I mean, it's pretty clear. Well, I'm also of the mind, and I'll say this, and I'm probably going to be wrong, but... Say it. Most primaries have not turned out, have not ended the way they began. But with that, like a 40-point lead or whatever it is right now? I mean, Hillary Clinton had a 40-point lead in 2008. Charlie Cook said she was a freight train and to get out of her way.
Had Obama listened to everybody else, there may have been a Hillary Clinton presidency in 2008. What about Biden? Do you think this primary will change for him? Do you think there's any chance that he doesn't run for re-election? No chance. I mean, no chance he doesn't run. It was never a question. Politicians, you know, someone like him who really, really thrives on
public service and government, you don't give up power that easily. It's just not in the blood of run for office. Yeah. That's what I believe as well. I don't think power is given up. I think it's taken. Yeah, that's exactly right. And did you ever read Richard Ben Kramer's book that like, I don't know, it's like 1400 pages?
Oh, you should read it. Sorry. 1,400 pages. I don't know if I have time for that right now. Cliff notes, please. It's about the psychology of people who think they can be president. And he profiles Richard Ben Kramer from 1986 to 1991, profiles candidates in the 1988 Democratic primary and Republican primary. George Bush 41, Bob Dole, and then Dick Gephardt, Michael Dukakis,
Jerry Hart, and Joe Biden. Can I just say, before you even start, I believe, and what I have seen based on covering politics, is that I believe that most of these people think they've been anointed by God or a higher being to represent large swaths of people. I think that's what the ultimate conclusion of the book is. That's just my gut feeling, having been around. You believe it.
of an ego to believe that you and only you can be the one elected person in the entire country. But hey, I mean, I wish I had that kind of confidence. Yeah, me too, seriously. Can you bottle that and sell it, please? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to me. And for that reason, I'm like, wouldn't Biden want to come off as more of a fighter right now, especially when there seems to be this sort of void between
That's being filled with Republicans saying that he deserves to be impeached, whether that will happen or not. Just using the word Biden impeachment in the same sentence without really any facts to back it up is a bad sentence for him. Yeah, but I don't even know what that means. Impeach him for what? Like, I keep saying when I go on other programs, just like they seem to be.
in search of a problem for the solution that they have, which is impeachment. They know they have, they know they want to impeach him. They just can't find what for. Well, it's sort of like Benghazi. Like once you start the ball rolling, then you can start investigating, right? Yeah. Well, I guess they're already investigating. They need, they need to continue. Muddying the waters. And like, and that's what's unfortunate to me is,
is, you know, that CNN poll that came out last week. Okay. So first of all, let's talk about the drama over the CNN poll. Did you watch Twitter like on Friday or Thursday? Of course. I mean, it's not just the CNN poll. It's the Wall Street Journal poll. It's the New York Times poll. They're all the same. Biden is neck and neck or losing to Republicans. Yeah. Like there's just nothing good to say about the polls. But like, it's annoying to see
A, the people who put so much stock in the polls right now, and then the people who are so sensitive about the people putting so much stock that they have their rants about the media. It's like, you're all professionals. We're both, we're all party people. We know exactly what the media's job is here. I mean, as a producer at Hardball, I could have taken one, one,
and one stat from a poll and probably could have talked about it for an entire hour, could have filled a whole show on it. That's what poll, I mean, like, that's what the media does. There was just so much- And also, don't you need to do polling and so into some capacity? Because the parties are doing the polling anyway. Are we just supposed to be blindsided on election day? I'm talking about the public polling. They were complaining about, eh,
And like, oh, this is what CNN said at this point in 2019. And guess what? These are all reputable polls. You know, that's the other thing. And when they're good for for Biden, the Biden people are going to be thrilled and they're going to be like, exactly. But like there was just not just the Biden people, but strategists and Democrats online were just driving me nuts with the whining and.
overreactiveness to the people who were reacting to the poll. It's like, OK, a poll's a poll. It's a poll of a moment in time. It's a report card. It's like where you stand now. Doesn't mean it's going to it's not going to be the grade you're going to get next week or next month or next year. It's the grade you're getting right now. Well, it just reflects the larger party insecurity over the fact that Joe Biden is the candidate.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to call it out for what it is. I'm not going to say it. Yeah, it's the fact that they realize that he has the real electability issues because of his age and because of the state of the economy, which is sort of where I wanted to go with you onto this idea of the messaging of the Biden camp, which is all about contrast. Again, they love this word contrast and Bidenomics. So it's like you draw a contrast with Trump without saying his name,
Or fighting him or going after him. You can go after like congressional Republicans or very broad ideas that Republicans have, but not like directly attack any individual, which I think makes it become a referendum in some ways. If you don't go after individuals and you're kind of setting yourself up for a referendum. But I could, you know, I accept that I could be wrong on this theory. Referendum on who? On yourself. Okay. Okay.
You know what I mean? Like, if you're just, like, broadly up against, like, MAGA extremists and, like, you don't really take on a person, then you're not, like, you're not a choice. You're a referendum, basically. He needs a foil. Trump is his foil. Yeah, he needs a foil. And I don't know that, like, MAGA Republicans, like, broadly all Republicans are, like, a foil because, like, there are a lot of moderate Republicans out there. They're not all MAGA extremists. And, like...
For some reason, with every indictment, Trump becomes more popular and you're not hearing anything from the Bidens, from Joe Biden about it. And I just think like he's going on Truth Social and he's getting a lot of press for his hits on the administration. And there's just like no response. And I just wonder how long can this sort of void be out there and not filled? And is it impacting Joe Biden? Like, should they be more aggressive? Should they be attacking Trump?
The answer to your question is yes, they should be more aggressive. But the question is how? And this was sort of the strategy during the campaign when impeachment was going on. We kind of just put our heads down, even though the impeachment was about...
the president, the former president, bribing a foreign country with congressional aid in exchange for dirt on Joe Biden and his family. We didn't really talk about it that much. And it was just put your head down, do the job, focus on winning this primary kind of thing. So there's a couple of things. First of all, they do have to be careful because some because people think that there is this
And this is unfortunate. The disinformation stuff that's out there is like people think or Republicans and MAGA people think that it's Joe Biden's DOJ. It's not Joe Biden's DOJ that is that is.
punish or that is investigating Donald Trump. I mean, these are career nonpartisan, nonpolitical, many of whom were appointed by Republicans, prosecutors who are investigating Donald Trump. And we have nothing to do. The White House has nothing to do what's going on in Georgia or New York. I can't keep track of the indictments. So I think there's three, four. And you see federal case. How many are there? Four or three? What?
I believe right now. Yeah. And so like, they do have to walk a fine line about when it comes to like the legal drama. Now taking on Trump as a person and as a, as a moral leader or, you know, just given what he did on, on January 6th, like I think they should be, I thought the best speech Joe Biden's presidency was,
was the first anniversary of January 6th. In Pennsylvania, the one in Philly? No, no, no. Oh, no, I know which one you're talking about. That was like the... That was like the...
Labor Day, like, going into midterm election fighting season speech. This was the anniversary when he did it in, like, Statuary Hall in the Capitol on the anniversary. Look, I think he should be punching up, not punching down. What about just punching across at Donald Trump? He's not punching down at him anymore. Like, the polls just don't show that. I'm sorry. Economic messaging is working. I think...
This is a White House that likes to say, we want to meet voters where they are, which is kind of like a throwback to the Obama days. That's what they all used to say. Again, a lot of jargon, slogany words that I'm not really sure mean anything. It has no meaning. But like, okay, we want to know where voters are not. They're not sitting in a...
MIT PhD class on microeconomic theory. So no matter how loud you get and how much more you repeat, the economy is going well or the economy is recovering and look what we've done with the economy and look at these numbers and these numbers. Unless you're feeling it in your pocket or seeing it in your bank account,
people really aren't really moved by an economic message. I firmly believe, I will take this to the bank. I said it before the midterm election. It's not the economy, stupid. It's really not. People don't vote like that. I firmly believe that, okay, maybe that was the theme back in 1992. First of all, we shouldn't be repeating strategic thematics of
campaigns from 30 years ago because no election is alike. It was really a Roe versus Wade, yeah, midterm, plus crime. The president's party would have been punished. Instead, the president, historically, his party overperformed in the House. Well, because of Roe versus Wade. And picked up seats in the Senate. Well, that's one reason. Yes, it energized people to turn out for sure. But
And there are a bunch of crummy candidates on the Republican side, too many extremists. Here's the thing. If you go back, yes, if you go back and look at all those candidates, let's take the Senate candidates specifically. Head to head matchups were never the same as the likability and favorability of candidates. So let's take Fetterman, for example. Fetterman was
was always more likable, viewed more likably consistently in polling, consistently viewed more likably and favorably than Oz, even though they were always, you know, within three points of each other in polling. And one thing, the other thing that Democrat candidates had in common was they were all more popular than Joe Biden. So they were viewed more favorably than the Republican opponent and they were viewed more favorably than Joe Biden. So,
It really wasn't a vindication for Bidenomics because in a normal world where Donald Trump wasn't the center of attention and recruiting these flawed candidates, these very extreme candidates, in a normal world, a 40-year high inflation would have been death to Biden.
the party in power. And it turned out to be a referendum on the party out of power because of Donald Trump. And that's why statistics and independent numbers... But not really because of Donald Trump. He wasn't on the ballot. He just picked the candidates, to be clear. I think that's part of it. But I think it's different when he's on the ballot. But
But don't forget, like, look, think back to last August and the Mar-a-Lago raid and then the investigations. Feels like a lifetime ago. He was making about himself by getting involved in that Pennsylvania race. I have no doubt that if Dave McCormick were the nominee, he'd be a senator right now.
I don't think he's going to beat Bob Casey this year, but I do think he could have won statewide. Yeah, against Fetterman. Totally. Especially because Fetterman was sick. He was the hedge fund manager. I don't know if that works against the Fetterman brand of populism. I think Fetterman was very popular in his own right. He was drawing massive crowds. So...
I don't know. Look, I think they got to do something that penetrates, that moves people, that makes people have a visceral reaction. And my recommendation is instead of running ads on NFL Opener about the economy, why are you not running ads about Tommy Tuberville and what he's doing to the military? Turn their strength into their weakness.
Turn the Republican Party and show the American people why the Republican Party is the new anti-military party. They're holding up military promotions. They're hurting military families. And you think that'll help with up-ballot when dealing with, like, Trump?
And they're hurting America's readiness. This was the party that used to be pro-law enforcement, pro-military, anti-Russia. They've become the opposite. And then show what Joe Biden has done for vets, which is get them health care, allow them to live. Like, that's a contrast. What are they doing? Military? The men and women of our armed services who put their lives on the line? That's a striking contrast. It's simple. It's clear. It's easily digestible. It's good versus bad. And
The economy is just not moving people. It's certainly not moving numbers. It's not just the CNN poll. Like you said, it's every poll. And a lot of these polls show for some reason that voters believe Republicans are better at managing the economy. Why do you think that is? No idea. I don't know because I don't think the facts show that. I mean, Donald Trump ran up at $7.8 trillion debt or he added $7.8 trillion to the national debt.
Now, all of a sudden, Republicans care about spending. That's why I was so pissed about the debt ceiling negotiation. It's like, we played this game before. They can't be trusted to make deals because we made that deal with them in 2011. Biden did, right? And look what happened when they got a Republican president. They blew through the spending caps. So I make a deal with them when a debt ceiling negotiation isn't even about spending, first of all.
It should be happening right now. And it is. But I don't know. They're a bunch of Republicans are just such hypocrites when it comes to spending. They only care about spending when it's convenient for them or when a Democrat is the president. But we inherit it. They're spending this. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. You know, for me, fitness has always been about finding that groove, whether it's hitting the pavement outside, which I've been a lot of, or dialing up a sweat session indoors.
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So like, just to get back to that thought that I had, you think that if Biden doesn't fight back and defend himself, that it becomes more of a referendum on him? Yeah, sure. If you don't, if, first of all, you need to define your opponents before they define you. Now, because he's president, there's been ample opportunity to define him. That's why I don't understand why they're
ad blitzing with accomplishment stuff when we've been touting his accomplishments for the last three years. If it hasn't- And no one's listening. That's right. It's time for a new strategy. Stop wasting your money on economic TV ads. Start hitting back. People, you know what?
white male voters, at least, they always have some respect for you. When you're being slugged in the gut, they'd like to see you slugged out. They like a fighter. Yeah, that's what I thought. Because that's what they're getting from Trump. They think he's a fighter. Had they been out defending Hunter sooner, maybe they would have a better chance of changing public perception. You know, like there are...
families across this country, and not probably, I don't know, I can't, I don't know the numbers, but mostly everybody has somebody they know in their community, in their family, in their circle of friends who are touched by some form of addiction, right? To allow the Republicans to weaponize Hunter's personal
demons and struggles the way they have has been unfortunate because the Republicans have been able to muddy the waters and make it seem as though this president is just as corrupt as the other one. And it makes me sad because I remember sitting with the first lady in her office and
telling her that I was going to get ready to leave the White House in the next couple of weeks. And it was sad because we were together on that campaign. You're there when I joined when we were broke, had no money, and he was getting...
killed in debates, beaten the polls, beat with money. And so it was just four of us, a small little group traveling together for many, many, many months. And then we became the nominee and then COVID happened and then we went back on the road. And so when you're, you have a
small little family like that, you know, it's emotional. And because you've been through so many highs and lows together and, and you saw the evolution of a losing campaign to a winning campaign to, you know, turning this woman and her husband, turning this woman into the first lady of the United States. Like it's, it was incredible metamorphosis to be a part of and to witness. And so we were having a little bit of an emotional moment. And I said to her, I said, you know,
I knew I wanted to work for your husband very early. Not because I was a sycophant or like this huge fan, but like one, I knew he was the right person to, I knew he could win to be honest with you. I, I wanted to go with somebody who I could see the Northeast corner of Pennsylvania, the independents there who are just turned off by Trump. I know they would vote for a Joe Biden. So I,
I wanted to work for him for that reason. But I also, also knew that, and I said this to her, I said, I know how much it is to sacrifice to join a campaign and how much time you give up, how my personal relationships you, you, um, you know, put on hold and the financial sacrifice. And if I was going to do all that at a somewhat late age, I was like 35, 36. Um,
I wanted to do it for somebody I knew I could go to bed at night knowing was a good person, like a good human being in their heart. And that was what attracted me to Joe Biden is that in getting to know his grandkids and his children and his wife, they're just, and they're even their family friends, they're just good human beings surrounded by good human beings. And
And that's what hurts so bad about the messaging and the polling that shows that a lot of people don't think he is. That hurts me, you know? Do you think that the story about him not recognizing his seventh grandchild causes those thoughts to happen? Probably. I think that didn't help. I think that didn't help. Look, I think it's a gross thing to exploit because it's such a personal...
family matter and we don't know what conversations and were had between I and family and, and, uh, and, and the other family, you know, we're talking about here. We, we, we just don't know. But we know their side of the story. We know that we know Hunter's, you know, ex partner or whatever, the mother of his child. We know her side of the story.
Some of it. I don't know if we know exactly. They've been going through litigation. So, like, there's only so much we can talk about. But biologically, this child is his... Sure. Okay, fine. Sure. We can, you know, accept that much. Um...
But we don't know the circumstances under which, you know, people say like, oh, they wouldn't accept this little girl until after litigation was over. Well, maybe that's what they were advised to do. Maybe that was the deal struck. Who knows? We don't know because these are such deeply personal family matters. Anybody who knows Joe Biden knows how much he loves his grandchildren and
if it was appropriate and if it was, you know, we, we, we just don't know the answer to that now from a PR perspective. And that's very different from a personal perspective. Yeah. I would have handled some of that differently. I think the best thing to do, like I say all the time, um,
Shine a light on your problems. So tell it early, tell it all, and tell it yourself. I would not have put out a Friday night news dump statement acknowledging the granddaughter. That, to me, did a disservice to the first family. It did not represent the heart, the warmth, the compassion. So you think they're just getting bad advice is what you think? I'm not going to... I love my college. I love my former college. Most of my former college. I love...
I love most of my former colleagues. Let's be honest, the White House is a bit of a team of rivals because it's all type A people. You don't make it to the White House without being, you know, a type A person.
Their strategies. But I mean, look, they speak for themselves, right? Like they're the advice they're getting speaks for itself. I'm somebody who always advocated for treating the press like an opportunity, not as a hazard. And I think people who are in politics for a long time, on the team for a long time, are protective people.
of the Bidens for a long time and live in sort of like a bunker mentality where the press is just against you and you treat them as a threat and you start off with suspicion, it doesn't end well. It's not going to end well and it's not serving him well because look at his numbers. It's not to say he's not going to win. He very much could win, but
But it's not serving him well to have these hostile relationships with the press, his team, or him, or whatever, because it's just not working for him. You can hide in a bunker. You can pretend like everyone's against you and everybody is treating you unfairly. It doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't get you better press, and it doesn't move his numbers. Because if you're not getting good press stories...
You're not influencing public opinion. And if you're not influencing public opinion or moving it, then shame for the guy. I feel bad for the guy.
So right now, do you think he should be punching back at Trump right now? I certainly think he should be punching back when they smear him and lie about him. Well, they say it's his DOJ that's investigating. Okay, but that's disinformation. It's not. I mean, they have to. You think they have to address that? Biden has to be the one to say this is not true. He's I mean, for what? Like he's being investigated by DOJ, too.
You think it would probably make sense for Biden to say, like, I'm also being investigated. This is not my DOJ. Well, one of Trump's strengths, I mean, he's a habitual liar, but one of his strengths is that he sounds like a human being. And if you can just talk normally... Like a normal person. Yeah. Without the coaching and rehearsing and looking at the script and saying, okay, my staff told me to call on this person, blah, blah, blah.
Biden is better when he is speaking from his gut, from his heart. But then they say he's too gaffe-prone. Don't let him say off-scratch. Don't let him off-scratch. That's his brand. He's been gaffe-prone his entire life as a senator. The guy's always been gaffe-prone. He's funny. He's endearing, you know? I mean, you could say the same thing about Trump. It's not really a gaffe. It's kind of like a rant. That's what the first lady said in a Jake Tapper interview back during the campaign. What's a gaffe these days? There's no such thing as a gaffe after Trump.
She's like, no, it turned into a meme. It just feels like he has like a very neurotic staff around him. That's my that's my take of the Biden. Like his staff talks in very technical terms. They talk about contrast. They talk about Bidenomics. They talk about. He's pretty good at asking it, asking how to deliver. Or if look, he knows his his voter. His voter is some, you know, Irish woman.
middle-aged family in northeastern Pennsylvania. He knows how to speak to them. Labor voter, kind of working class. Yeah, labor, sure. But like,
Biden knows how to do it. And sometimes I would say when people were trying to be too overly protective of Jill and I would say, look, she's been doing this longer than us. She has been dating a politician or she's been with a politician since she was 24 years old. She's been through 15 campaigns.
They are somewhat smarter than we are at some of this. It's true, actually. They have been there longer. They've been more successful. They've been relatively... Times have changed, though. Times have changed. And they live in bubbles. Politicians live in bubbles. You are 1000% right. And trust me, I tried to poke the bubble all the time. And, you know, I was...
often had my wrist slapped because of it. But... That's what makes you you. But so do a lot of the people that he seeks advice from. And I think that... Look, presidents are entitled to have their security blankets around them. They all do, right? They need it. For better or for worse. They need to have people they can trust around them. But they also do need to invite...
fresh, you know, of date, you know, out of the box thinking into their circle because,
You know, Trump does. Well, he just goes around, he walks around Mar-a-Lago and he talks to people and asks them what they think. Anecdotes are like nothing new to politics, right? We use anecdotes all the time. Although, you know, on the Biden campaign, we're like... He pulls people. We're vetting every word. We're vetting every person to see if their, you know, their background is like, okay, dementia...
Chinese spy, you know? Trump's probably not as cautious as we were when it came to vetting anecdotes and stories. He'll take advice from anybody. But that's actually not a bad thing. Really. It's a good thing in some ways. It's like it's actually understanding the mentality of the voter. The fact that Trump would talk to everyone from like the doorman to his guests to his...
youngest staffers. Yeah, it's like you're kind of focusing, focus grouping yourself. Like you're focus grouping on your own. And it's evidence. There's like nothing that can replace that. It's like super... And polling people, he would throw things out and say, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? There's a lot of group think in the White House. I think that's a problem with the White House. Yes, I think it's... I think that's every White House. And I think particularly this one, I think...
I think that Trump mastered 21st century communication in ways that others haven't figured out. I think that like his use of- Like covfefe is a mastery. But even tweeting things incorrectly or having bad grammar is very normal and human. Exactly. That's my point. It's just like, you know, he's doing it himself. You know, it's real. You know, it's coming from his gut. You know, it's coming from him.
And, you know, ours are basically pre-approved cookie cutter press release language. You know, that's a choice. That's a choice. Like, like Trump at his age chose to find out, speaking of like where people are, chose to find out where people are talking to each other and everything.
You know, he amassed like the most free media I've ever seen anybody get just because he learned how to master a modern age form of technology and communication in ways other politicians can't. And there are some people who are really good at it, like a Chris Murphy or a Brian Schatz, Claire McCaskill. They're great. But they're no Trump. I mean...
But Trump's been doing this since the tabloids. They're the best we have in terms of knowing how to communicate online. Isn't that scary? Scary for staff, sure. No, for Democrats, that those people are the best you have. But I'm also like, speaking of which, I'm like, also, where is Obama right now? Where is Hillary? Where are some of the big stars that could... I don't think any of them were...
any of those people you just named were that comfortable speaking as if you would speak to your friend or brother or sister or family member or at a bar on Twitter. And that's how Trump used Twitter because that's how everybody else uses it. And that's how the press uses it. And Trump used it that way. And so it was just, he was just a master at using like technology, you know,
That's just not the style of the Bidens. And that's okay. It's just not their style.
I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just saying, like, there's different styles. And Trump was a master at social media. And look, even today, look, he's not even on Twitter. And he's still getting free media out of his posts. He's like America's assignment editor. It's insane. I know, it's crazy. Well, he knew that, too. I remember from covering him, like, his aides would say, like, he knows every morning how to set off the news, like, how to create a totally new story. And just...
And I can tell you, it was, I mean, that's why I ultimately left. I couldn't take it because it was just so, as somebody who's a political junkie like me, like being a producer, I loved like all the different possibilities out there that we could talk about every night. And it didn't matter. It was all Trump driven because a tweet at 4 p.m. could change an entire produced show because you'd want to have
Like that tweet could be the driver of the entire show. It would make so much news. The threshold for what became news changed because of Trump. I guess what I'm trying to say is like how much longer, like how soon does Biden have to start fighting back? I think that- Does he have to wait until Trump is the nominee because it's so obvious that Trump is the nominee? No, he doesn't. Because look, I think there's a good chance Trump will be the nominee. Yes. It's not, there's been one debate
There's usually like 15 or 18 before we get to a nominee. We all kind of have to take a breath. Like these, these contests have never turned out the way they started. And I think everybody needs to be crystal clear, especially the Biden campaign that like there, there has to be a plan of attack to run against Trump. And there has to be a plan of attack to run against a, a much younger candidate.
generational candidate like a Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis or Tim Scott or whomever, Chris Christie. You just got to. The best advice I was ever given was by a long, long time staffer, political staffer. Fail to plan, plan to fail. You have to plan for every outcome. It's too early to bank that it just will be Trump. There's a good chance it will.
But I'm not convinced. I'm just not convinced yet because I've lived through too many of these that started off very differently than how they turned out. Okay, what's the scenario in which Trump is not the nominee? I don't know. I mean, like, I'm not a Republican voter. So, like, I can't say. Like, I can't. Like, he didn't win Iowa last time. Right. So, I don't know. They coalesce around one candidate who takes him on in the early states.
I don't even know. Like, New Hampshire has a bit of an independent streak. He's killing it, though, in New Hampshire. Just remember, like, Pete Buttigieg... He's killing it in Iowa and South Carolina. Buttigieg? Yeah, Pete Buttigieg came from New York because he had one viral moment. That's all it takes. That's all it takes. To take on Trump, though? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like, look, I'm sure his support is as...
cemented as everybody says, but like, I still think like that's why they should be branding the party. Not so much Trump yet. They'll have plenty of time to do that. Okay.
So you think they're actually doing the right thing by branding them as MAGA extremists and drawing the contrast? I think that's getting a little old. Like, I would like to see more relevant examples. Like, I think turning the Republican Party into an anti-military party is a little bit more provocative. And I think that's what people are looking for. Show some fight. Show some guts. Like, get in there and...
you know, get in the mud with these people. It really runs contrary to everything, though, that... Yeah, well, it's 2024. And if you're running against Trump, you have to get into the mud anyway. So it comes at a cost. People don't... Like, people... And the other thing is, 2020, you know, there was COVID, right? He was the... Donald Trump's failures...
were so omnipresent and Biden was just the alternative to somebody who was really failing the country. Right. He said, what did he used to say? Don't vote, don't vote.
Just based on me, based on the... What did he say? Like, oh, don't compare me to the almighty. Compare me to the alternative. That was what he said, right? Right. And ultimately, you know what? That's what elections come down to. They're about two different beings. Right now, people have too many choices and they're yearning for too many choices if you're a Democrat. So when this thing...
finalizes itself. I mean, most people are yearning for choices other than Biden and Trump. Correct. So when it becomes clear that there is no other option, this is your choice. You're going to see these numbers probably fluctuate a lot. It's still going to be a very close race. Because there's about 7% to 9% that are still independent, still looking, right? You will see a unification
And you will see sort of like all the fundamentals come together the way they typically do. The only thing is that Biden was pulling way ahead of Trump in the last election, like five to 10 points.
Yeah, but... And it ended up being a squeaker. What was it, like 50,000 votes or something? You gotta be... Well, it was... I think he won by 8 million votes. Oh, no, yeah, popular votes. But I mean, like, in the swing states. Erie wasn't that close. I mean, in the Electoral College. Actually, it wasn't that close. But, like, if you look at, like, the states that matter, sure. Right, right, right. Yeah, in the states that matter to win the Electoral College. Yeah, sure. Those races were close. But, like...
Democrats did well in 2022 in all those states. There was a statewide winner that was Democrat in all the states that matter. And in some cases, multiple. So I'm not, I'm not completely, I'm not totally worried. I still think the last three elections, 18, 20 and 22, independents went for Democrats. And that all has to do with Trump. And I think if he's the nominee, that's why Democrats will feel good. At the same time, they can't take him for granted because he's
We all remember 2016. Look, like, I still think, like... He doesn't have that shine on him either anymore. Here's the thing. It goes back to that thing we talked about at the very beginning of this conversation. The economy's stupid, right? It's not. It's more...
about politics being not local, not national, but personal. I think politics is personal to people. And, you know, I met, this is just an anecdote, purely anecdotal, but I think it, it, it's appropriate in this context. And I met this guy a couple months ago and he's, um, you know, third generation law enforcement, very blue collar family. Um,
all you know as you can imagine all fraternal or police state troopers police chiefs this is like three generations of law enforcement firefighters all republicans and the guy i met his father was ready ready to go you know this is in 2020 his father is about to to go vote for trump and and uh the guy said you know the guy's probably like mid 30s late 30s and he says you know or or
you're going to vote for Trump. And he says, yeah, aren't you? And he's like, no. And the father, technically grandfather, is like, well, why? Why would you not vote for Trump? And he's like, dad, who do you want your grandsons to look up to as a role model? Donald Trump or Joe Biden? Who would you rather your grandkids look up to?
I don't know. I feel like people are piping hot, angry, and they don't give a shit about role models. That's like a little bit Pollyannish. Sorry to say that. My point is, Tara, pessimist Paul Mary over there. Well, I just, I have family. My dad voted for Trump. I don't think he cares about role models at all. I don't think he's a bad person, but I don't think he cares about role models so much as he cares about
The economy, et cetera. But I do think that there are people who, like, in 2004 and 2000, it was like, you know, I want to vote for the president I can have a beer with. Not the smartest one. Not the most capable one.
No matter how bad this president has screwed up the war in Iraq, I still think, like, I still relate to him more than I can the guy who speaks French and has a home in Sun Valley and Windsor of St. Martha's Vineyard. But that's not the other option right now. No, the other option is, you know, somebody who's, you know, kind of morally bankrupt and criminally compromised, right?
versus somebody who goes to church every Sunday, is a loving grandfather, a loving father, has dedicated his whole life to his family and to other people unselfishly. But that's what brings me back to the Biden void because they are filling that with the Biden crime family and Hunter Biden stories. And it creates the impression that the family is like very dysfunctional and not that like, you know what I mean?
fortunate that they haven't been doing like that fighting back all along. And, and, you know, I was the first ladies press secretary. I, there was nothing I could do that convinced, could convince them. I would say it to like my, I would say it to her and I would say it to my chief of staff. I don't understand why they're not doing this. I don't understand why they're not doing this. I don't understand why they're letting a narrative to sink in. I just don't get it. Like this is the most principled, honorable, most,
The most like the politician who has the most integrity that we've ever met. And he's being turned into like a corrupt, like patriarch of a criminal enterprise. And it's so sad to see. And I don't know if everybody's going to buy it. Look, people didn't buy it in 2020.
The Republicans still don't have anything. I do think people are smart enough to know the difference between the president's child or son who had really bad personal issues and challenges and demons like we all do versus...
Joe Biden, who you may disagree with. Right, but the other thing is that Hunter made $11 million as a lobbyist. So it's like, this stuff is seeping out. And I was talking to someone who's a news director recently at a major network that was like, actually, the Hunter Biden stuff rates well. It does. Where? Because, I mean, I know it rates well on Fox. No, on MSNBC. Like a normal network. Like broadcast. I'm not talking about cable. I'm talking about broadcast. Oh. I don't know.
I mean, but Trump rates well, too. And he has 100 times more problems and issues than than than Hunter, who missed a tax tax filing deadline like millions of other Americans and paid it back with the penalty. But there's like one lot like one last question, because we do have to jump. But like, does Hunter Biden, you know, going to jail or wherever kind of prove the point that the Justice Department is fair?
No, I think it true. No, I, because I don't, I don't, first of all, nobody goes to jail for the tax offenses that he committed. And the first time gun offense that he committed, like owning a gun, the gun offense, that's very rarely prosecuted. Seems far fetched. He owned it for 11 days. He didn't fire it. He didn't load it. I don't, I still don't get it. Um,
The tax stuff, everybody, millions of Americans every year file late taxes and pay back with interest and penalties. So I don't know the details of that, but maybe not jail, but like to have a, you know, maybe not a deal. I think the question is, in 2018, would a DOJ investigation into these types of first time offenses ever have been opened by DOJ if his last name wasn't Biden?
And his father wasn't the perceived biggest threat, which turned out to be right. Biggest threat of Trump's presidency. I don't think I don't think it would have. I don't think Hunter would be going through this right now if it wasn't about politics. You're probably right. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much, Michael. You're amazing. And I'll definitely I definitely would love to have you on again. I mean, there's going to be a lot to talk about for another episode.
for the foreseeable future. So thanks so much for listening to Somebody's Gotta Win. Please rate, like and share with your friends. And if you like my reporting, go to puck.news slash Tara Palmieri to sign up for my newsletter, The Best and the Brightest. You can use the code Tara20 for a 20% discount. See you on Tuesday.