Alex Isenstadt’s Insider View of Trump
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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. I want to welcome my super-plugged-in former colleague, Alex Eisenstadt of Axios. We used to work together at Politico many moons ago, maybe just a few years ago. He has a new book out today as of recording on Tuesday called Rebellion.

revenge. And the premise of the book is that President Donald Trump was able to stage what no one can deny was a remarkable comeback after January 6th with a mindset focused solely on revenge.

So I think when you read this book, you're going to feel like you are in the room with President Trump and his team, especially in those really hairy moments during the election. And like when those days when, you know, after the debate, when Joe Biden looked

Looked like he might drop out of the race. What was it like? What were they thinking? How were they feeling? He's so in the room that he has all of these very candid quotes from Donald Trump that I kind of want to go through with Alex because they are illuminating things.

Frightening, hilarious, all sorts of things. But not surprising either, considering that Trump is extremely candid on truth social and frankly, all the time. So I just want to go through some of it. We all know that Donald Trump hates Ron DeSantis, right, Alex? It's fair.

Fair to say. So it's not really surprising. So here's one quote from Trump on Ron DeSantis. I'm going to quash this guy like a bug. And that was in January 2023 when he was gearing to run in the primary against Trump. And he was actually pulling ahead of Trump at that point, right? Right. And now I just want to flip to just a

A few months ago, you could say, back in September, I think it was, or over the summer, when Ron DeSantis wanted a reunion with Trump. It actually was in June in 2023. He said he was like a beggar. I would have said, drop to your effing knees, Ron. So, yeah, clearly the tables had turned. What do you think about that? Well, you know, Trump really, with these—

quote, highlight is that Trump sees everything through the prism of loyalty. Trump believes, and he has reason to believe this, that DeSantis owed him for DeSantis' ability to win the Florida gubernatorial race, right? You remember back to 2018, and DeSantis was running in a primary, he was running in a competitive primary against a former congressman named Adam Putnam,

And Trump gave DeSantis his endorsement. And DeSantis lobbied him very hard, lobbied him very aggressively. There were people in the White House who did not want Trump at that time to endorse Ron DeSantis. He went ahead and did it anyways. And so Trump felt very betrayed that DeSantis would run against him. And in fact, there were in the beginning,

Trump didn't even really believe that DeSantis would actually go through with it. He couldn't believe that DeSantis actually did it. And when he did, he was really—and when DeSantis ultimately pulled the trigger or made it clear he was going to pull the trigger, Trump was really surprised.

And then it was gloves off for Trump, really. I mean, we all remember the attacks. Because there was a time when people were like, it could be Trump, DeSantis on the same ticket. Right. This was right after the election. And yeah, Trump and DeSantis was the white knight and the establishment got behind him and he raised $200 million unheard of for a primary election.

And it would all it all went down the toilet. I want to go back to the whole loyalty thing, because here's another good quote that sort of shows how Trump thinks about loyalty. Go tell Lindsey we're not friends anymore. And he's talking about Senator Lindsey Graham. This was back in April 2024 when Senator Graham criticized Trump's decision to oppose his Graham, his backed plan to ban abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy.

This is another quote that feels like I can shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it. You know, Trump thinking he's invincible. Trump said during the trial, you remember that trial, the Stormy Daniels trial for falsely, well, the one where he was actually convicted. Convict me and send me to Rikers already. At least they probably have the heat turned on. So, yeah, this is how he was thinking in the courtroom. A little bit of a not giving a shit, right? Or thinking he was going to get away with it.

But he got a no penalty sentence, so he did. He wasn't wrong. Here's another one. It's a Jared thing, and Jared's a Democrat. That was Trump talking about how Jared championed a criminal justice reform bill that Trump ultimately signed off on, right?

Right. So Trump was, you go back and you look at the criminal justice reform bill that Trump signed, and that was something that he regretted doing in his first term. And it's something that a lot of people who are Trump allies didn't like that he did either. They felt like it didn't align with his overall goals as president, how he ran. But he got a picture with Kim Kardashian. Yeah.

Right. Well, it was something that Jared Kushner championed. It was something that Kushner wanted to do. And you had this wing of the White House at that time that was led by Kushner, sort of people who were more moderates, right? People like Gary Cohn, like Hope Hicks.

and others who kind of align with that more moderate wing of the Republican Party, Trump felt like he shouldn't have done that. He shouldn't have signed that bill. Right, which is surprising because Trump usually goes with his gut and doesn't usually take advice. Oh, Dina Powell. Dina Powell is another. The quote unquote globalist. Okay, here's one more. This is Trump to a hospital nurse about the results of his CT scan after he was shot in Butler, Pennsylvania.

Okay. Can you give me a copy of these? Because I want to make sure I can show reporters that my cognitive function is 100%. You can't say the same about Joe Biden. Yeah, that's what he was thinking after he was almost killed. Okay, here's a few more, and we'll get into the show, the meat of the show, because it is juicy. Alex has some really, really good reporting. This is Trump to Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna. You may know her. She's very outspoken, MAGA warrior.

Also on the younger side, in terms of like members of Congress, attractive woman. If you need a bed to lay down in, there's one here on the plane. If you feel sick and you need to lay there, you can lay on it. Just don't tell Melania. She doesn't like other women on my bed. I think that's fine and upset. Apparently, you said he's... I want to stress, I want to stress he was joking when he said that and there was a lot of laughter. He did not mean that seriously. So I just want to stress that he was joking when he said that. There's been some back and forth on the internet. Oh, yeah.

Over this. So I just want to stress, Trump was joking. Trump was not really inviting Anna Paulina to his bed. Okay. Honey, I need to fix this. That's Trump to the former RNC chair, Ronna McDaniel. She did not last very long because her hair was not looking great before she was about to take the stage at the Republican Jewish Coalition. And so Trump, always having hairspray nearby, grabbed it and sprayed it.

on her hair to make sure that she would look good. Here's another quote. "Listen, everybody, there will be no retribution. There'll be no revenge. Wink, wink." Yeah, the wink, wink came out of his mouth. Obviously, he's being sarcastic. He is obviously hellbent on revenge. You can just tell. Here is one last one. "E. Jean Carroll says I fucked her. Stormy Daniel says I fucked her, but I never fucked them. Everyone's fucking everybody, but I never fucked any of these people.

This is Trump to an aide about Carol, who accused him of sexual assault in the 1990s, and Stormy Daniels, who said that she had sex with Trump in 2006, shortly after Barron was born. A jury found Trump liable for sexually assaulting Carol and fined him $5 million. So is this a family-friendly show? I just have to ask. It's a podcast. Okay. Anything goes. Anything goes. I think there's a little E next to explicit on my podcast.

on my stuff. But why? What were you going to say? I don't want to cut you off. No, I just, you know, Trump was very insistent through it all that he did not have affairs with these women. And he was like that privately. He insisted privately. He insisted publicly that nothing happened. Deny, deny, deny in the words of Roy Cohn. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But he does obviously use the F word a lot, like a lot of people do. There's a fair amount of F

words in this book. Now, I want people to buy this book. It's out today, the 18th. But for parents who just should be aware that there are a fair number of F-bombs in this book. But this is how politicians tend to speak, by the way. Correct. Behind closed doors. Correct. And you ran all these quotes by the team, right? Trump's books. I've done extensive fact checking on this book.

Okay, that's why we're going to get into the meat of this. So I want to talk about those incredible weeks after Joe Biden's debate, the one where he just completely capitulated on stage. It was unclear if and when Joe Biden was going to drop out. Obviously, like publicly, the Trump team was thrilled to see their contender flailing. But what were they really thinking at the time? What was their worst fear?

So this is actually a really interesting part where before the debate with Joe Biden, Trump was concerned that, and he said this several times during his debate prep,

that if he hit Biden too hard, that Biden would drop out of the race. He was concerned about it. And what his advisors told him was like, look, you've got to just go in and do the best you can, behave as you normally would in a debate. Don't worry about what Biden does. But Trump was concerned about it. He saw the possibility, even before that disastrous debate for Biden in late June,

Trump foresaw the possibility that if he hit Biden too hard and Biden underperformed, that Biden could drop out of the race. And so in some respects, Trump wasn't surprised when that ended up happening.

And, you know, you go back and you look at this, and in some ways it's remarkable that Trump was able to foresee this in the sense that his advisors around him didn't necessarily foresee that as a possibility. Of course, we now know what happened in that debate. Okay, but why was he worried about knocking out Biden? Like, was there someone behind Biden that he was worried about running against? Sure.

Sure. So very early on in this debate, I mean, you remember this race that there was concern in Democratic circles that Biden wouldn't be able to make it through the whole race. And there was discussion that perhaps he should cede ground to another Democrat. Now, early on, Trump was concerned about Gavin Newsom.

He was concerned about the California governor. And in some ways, it makes a lot of sense, right? Trump saw Newsom as slick and as the future of the Democratic Party. And it makes sense because Trump is someone who's fixated on visuals. He always has been, right? I mean, you just mentioned the anecdote about Trump remarking about Ronna McDaniel's hair.

Trump is, first and foremost, a showman. He's a marketer. And his hair is stiff. It doesn't move. His hair is stiff. It didn't move. And by the way, going back to that Ronna McDaniel anecdote, her hair, she would later tell people, didn't move after Trump applied that hairspray. It was like a helmet.

But Trump, when it comes to Newsom, saw Newsom as slick and as the future of the Democratic Party. He actually had respect for Newsom. You know, they talked a lot, a fair amount during Trump's first term.

They had this relationship that was forged in part because of Gavin Newsom's ex-wife, Kimberly Guilfoyle, at the time was Don Jr.'s girlfriend. And so there was some mutual—so Trump had some respect for Newsom.

And saw him as a well put together person. Interestingly enough, and some of your listeners and viewers will remember this, but during the Republican primary, Gavin Newsom launched this effort to troll the Republican Party. And he went on, he was a, several times he was a guest on Sean Hannity's show.

Trump, of course, is very close to Hannity. Some people refer to Hannity as Trump's de facto chief of staff, right? They talk every night. Hannity lives within a stone's throw of Trump and Palm Beach. They clearly have this relationship. But it annoyed Trump, and he remarked about this privately. It annoyed Trump that Sean Hannity would have Gavin Newsom on his show. Trump didn't understand why Hannity would give Newsom this platform.

So, so you go back and then,

Trump, to some extent, lost respect for Newsom and began to see Newsom as less of a threat after Newsom debated Ron DeSantis. Trump would tell people- What was that in the timeline? That was in summer. I remember driving, listening to it. Right. So actually, this was early 2024. DeSantis was struggling in the primary. He was desperate to gain traction. And so it looked like a little bit of a stunt, basically. Right.

And if you look at what happened, a lot of people at that time felt like Newsom didn't perform terribly well in that debate with DeSantis. Trump would tell people at the time that he think that that DeSantis is an idiot, but he thought that Newsom would perform better in that debate.

And so Trump always had his eye on Newsom, but after that, he began to see Newsom as less of a threat. But if you look at it, you know, to the point of how Trump saw Newsom and to the point of how he was fixated on visuals, another person who was talked about at the time was J.B. Pritzker. Well, Trump privately would refer to Pritzker as a slob, right?

And Trump also thought at the time, he thought that Kamala Harris, he called her privately, called her an idiot. But he did have some respect and he did like one thing about Kamala Harris, which is that Melania Trump showed up to the funeral of Rosalind Carter.

And he liked that – he remarked to people that Kamala Harris and her husband, Doug Emhoff, were both nice to Melania at this funeral. And so Trump liked that Kamala Harris – But that was after he had already won, so there was no need to be – No, this was during the campaign. He liked that – this was before Kamala Harris got into the – became the Democratic nominee. He liked that Harris was nice to his wife. He liked that Harris was nice to Melania. Okay.

I'm confusing the Carter deaths. Excuse me. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. We're talking about Rosalind Carter's death, which was before Jimmy Carter's death. Yeah, obviously. Jimmy died after. Yep. Right. Right. And so there's a lot of interesting interplay in terms of how Trump was thinking about other Democratic, potential Democratic candidates with this belief that he always had in the back of his mind that Biden might not make it and a belief that intensified as they got closer and closer to the debate.

Okay, but then after the debate, who was the person that he was talking about the most? Because it was unclear who would succeed Biden. Well, it wasn't unclear for that long because, as you'll remember—

Biden essentially anointed Harris the same day that Biden dropped out, right? Yeah, but the weeks in between Biden dropping out, though. Oh, right, right. Yeah, it was, you know, Harris was the one that he and his people were talking about the most. But they kind of shrugged it off the possibility. And what they said, what they were telling people, including reporters, was that, look, we'll run against anyone. We're feeling good. And it makes sense because Trump was kind of on a high at that point.

point, right? There was a sense that he was invincible. There was a sense that he was going to walk back into the White House. Of course, the race got harder for him at the end. He didn't exactly walk back in. It was a challenging race up until the very end for him. But at the time, they were definitely most focused on Harris. They were starting to put together research on Harris and starting to think about how they could run against her. So to answer your question, it was Harris, but they felt very comfortable and confident that they could defeat her. And

And was Gavin Newsom still someone that they thought could emerge at that time? Newsom was not someone they were focused on that much at that time, just because so much focus at that point was basically on Harris. I mean, there were other Democrats who were being talked about

But it definitely was speculated that after that disastrous debate for Biden, that if Biden were to drop out, and it was still unclear at that point, right? It was still not totally clear that Biden was willing to step aside despite all these calls from Democrats for him to do so.

There was a sense that if he did so, it would be Harris. And the Trump people felt confident that they could defeat her. And if anything, they felt that she could be a weaker candidate than Biden would be. Oh, really? Interesting. Okay, I want to get into the Veep stakes because that was really intense. We both covered it very closely. Marco Rubio, Doug Burgum, and J.D. Vance. But who did Elon Musk want and why? Yeah.

Elon Musk got behind Trump, endorsed Trump formally on the night of the Butler assassination attempt. Shortly after, Elon Musk got on the phone with Donald Trump. And let's go back in time here because at this point, it was not at all clear that J.D. Vance was going to be the pick.

There was a lot of uncertainty. This was coming down to the final hours. The Republican National Convention at the time of the Butler shooting was less than 48 hours away. Trump still hadn't made up his mind. He was going down to the wire with this. Elon Musk gets on the phone with Trump and makes a pitch for J.D. Vance.

And what he tells Trump is that, look, if you pick an establishment candidate, in other words, someone other than Vance, if you pick an establishment candidate, that is – this is what Musk says. It's going to give the deep state establishment more incentive to try to kill you. And meaning that he sees Musk – that Musk sees Vance as sort of an insurgent figure in his own mold. It makes sense that Musk gets behind J.D. because –

J.D. Hales from the sort of Silicon Valley wing of the party, his early mentor. And backer was Peter Thiel, who, of course, is a big tech guy. So it makes sense. But it's interesting that Musk would say this to Trump after the Butler assassination attempt.

Okay, so then J.D. was picked and everything comes out about all of the horrible things that J.D. has said about Trump. You know, he called him, what did he call him, America's Hitler. I mean, keep going. Then there's the couch gate. Right. There's, I mean, every day there was another story. And J.D. was a drag. Like, that was my reporting, your reporting, that he was not, that Trump wasn't happy with him. When did that change and how does he feel about him now? Yeah.

It was an interesting moment when J.D. first got into the race because, and one of the things I report in the book was, look, I mean, J.D., if you go back in time, he's pretty new to politics, right? I mean, he ran his first campaign in 2022.

He ended up winning. He was a first term Senator. He finds himself all of a sudden as the VP choice. And then he's got all this incoming, right? National incoming. There's a pile on, people are digging up old quotes. They are making up things like the couch gate thing, which was never a real thing. Uh,

but ended up going viral on the internet. So you've got a tremendous, J.D.'s dealing with a tremendous amount of incoming at this point. And he's kind of taken aback by it. And what he starts to worry is that he could weigh down the ticket. And he says, look, I don't want to weigh down the ticket. I don't want to cause Trump to lose. And so he and his team, what they do is they develop a plan. And then what he's going to do is he's going to become very active on the media circuit. He's going to become Trump's policy attack dog.

He's going to go on offense. He's going to try to turn the tables on the press. And that's what he did. You saw him have a number of interviews, national interviews, where he kind of stuck it to reporters, anchors. He was always on the Sunday shows. He was constantly on the Sunday shows. And so his...

strategy for dealing with this was to make himself as public a face as he could, make himself as aggressive a face as he could, and give Trump and give conservatives something to rally behind. But Trump was always at this time, he was always, he always stuck with J.D. Vance. It was never really a question that Trump was somehow going to

kick Vance off the ticket. That wasn't really something that Trump was seriously considering. It was something that people in the press- It also would just show that his judgment wasn't right if he kicked off the ticket. Well, it shows Trump- Well, I guess Trump does this all the time. He hires and fires people all the time. He doesn't make a reflex on him. True, true. But Trump in this case wanted to be loyal to

to J.D. and his advice to J.D. was just go out there and fight. And to some extent, J.D. did that. He knew that that's what Trump wanted to see and that's what Trump very much respected. And there was a donor meeting I talk about, a dinner with donors that Trump had with Vance shortly after Vance was picked. And he called, look, he said, look, J.D. is the future of the Republican Party. And so Trump decided to keep him on the ticket.

Wow. Do you think Trump still thinks he's the future? You know, he would. Trump has hedged a little bit when he says this. He, I think, was asked in an interview, I think recently, whether J.D. Vance is going to be the next Republican nominee. And he hedged a little bit. But it's very clear, and my coworker and my colleague Alex Thompson has reporting on this today, that MAGA right now

has, at least for the time being, anointed J.D. Vance as Donald Trump's successor, right? Could things change over the next couple of years? Sure. There's a long ways to go. And there definitely are other Republicans who would like to have designs on the presidency. I mean, look at Elise Stefanik, right? She is someone who clearly has ambitions, clearly has ambitions.

And so, you know, I think you talk to people who are around J.D. Vance and they'll tell you that they're assuming that other Republicans are going to run. But as of right now, it's pretty clear that Trump and MAGA World sees J.D. Vance as his most likely successor. Or he's a placeholder for Don Jr. Well, if you talk to Don Jr.'s people, they'll tell you that. Oh, yeah, a little night, day and night. Well, yeah. It's a franchise business, Alex. Come on. Yeah.

I do want to ask you about how Trump's team managed to get RFK Jr. on board. This was pretty crucial for him to win over independents. So this is an interesting story, and it's something I go into in the book, which is there were a series of behind-the-scenes negotiations between the Trump camp and the RFK camp about getting him on board.

And RFK initially had gone to Trump with a series of demands for what he wanted. That rubbed Trump the wrong way. It doesn't work with Trump to come to

him with a series of demands and a series of asks, right? He didn't like it. I mean, he didn't like it when he felt like Zelensky was doing that to him, right? And so that was a turnoff to Trump. This was all in late summer. And so talks of an endorsement that had progressed over the summer kind of stalled a little bit when you get to the point of the Republican National Convention in July. But some important things happened during the convention, which is an

And one of the things I talk about is Tucker Carlson's role in getting RFK to endorse Trump. And there is a moment during the convention when Tucker Carlson and RFK both go to an AA meeting together. Both of them have talked openly about being AA goers. And so it shows that Tucker Carlson was really courting RFK to get on the Trump bandwagon.

And so there's a series of meetings over the coming weeks, one of which is held at Mar-a-Lago. They keep it super secret. Everyone keeps it super secret in which an endorsement was hammered out.

And Trump would later credit Susie Wiles for helping to secure this endorsement. But it's an important moment in the campaign because when you get to October and to the end of the race, RFK was one of a number of bros who went out onto the trail and endorsed Trump and supported him. And one of the things I talk about in the book was that brat summer became bro fall.

Yeah. Yeah. But Tucker Carlson was involved in this as well, right? Tucker Carlson was involved in getting RFK on to endorse Trump. Yeah, absolutely. Don Jr. was involved. It was a whole effort. But how did he get him? Like, how did Tucker win him over?

Well, one of the things they tried to win him over on is that basically sort of saying that Trump is someone who will play ball with you on the thing, on your priorities and the things that you care about, and that there's more common ground than not between you and the former president. You write, though, about him going to an AA meeting to try to touch base with RFK Jr.?

Well, no, more that the two of them decided that it showed that Tucker was very much invested in spending time with RFK and getting him to the point where he would endorse Trump. I mean, the talks were very intense, but it shows how Tucker Carlson played an important role in this campaign. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk to you about Elon Musk. Trump gives him another $100 million. Yeah.

Bannon's putting it out there that Trump should run again in 2028. Is this $100 million not just obviously to have a powerful, you know, political arm that can pressure members of Congress to help him pass legislation when his, you know, poll numbers inevitably dive, which they do as always with every president?

But is this because you think Trump wants to run again in 2028? Or does he see himself as a power broker in the party like the ones he grew up seeing in New York? That's something that has been suggested to me by a source that knows Trump well. Yeah, 100%. I think the latter. I think Trump likes to troll the media and with people with the 2028 talk. I think it works. But he definitely, and this is one of the things I talk about in the book, is Trump sees himself as a power broker.

First and foremost, I mean, Trump is a, you know, grew up, came of age in New York, the 1980s, right? And he came to admire a New York political, a Brooklyn political boss by the name of Meade Esposito. And Trump would talk about this during his first term behind the scenes in his White House. He liked how Meade Esposito was.

operated as a political boss. Going forward, that's really how Trump fashioned himself. One of the things we can basically assume is that Trump has now more than a half billion dollars in that political account of his. He can use it, you're right, to pressure Republicans to play in the 2026 midterms. What's really going to be fascinating to see is what happens in 2028? How does he spend this money in 2028? How does he spend it going forward potentially beyond that?

One thing is clear that we've learned about Donald Trump is that he's not going anywhere. When he's no longer president, he's not going anywhere. He's not going to exit the stage. So no, the 2028 talk doesn't appear to be real. It's not real. They might as well just change it to the Trump party or the MAGA party at this point. He does not. He will not go away. We know that about him. He's not going to go away. He's not going to let go of his control of the party. Okay. Last question because I'm trying to get you off on your way to keep reporting. Okay.

So Donald Trump has a really big day today. He's meeting with Vladimir Putin. They're speaking over the phone. They're not meeting in person. But, you know, he did promise that he could end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. It's been a few months now. He says he wants to divide the assets. And this is a big day. It's also an opportunity for him to get rolled by Putin, frankly.

At the same time, he's releasing these unredacted John F. Kennedy files about his assassination. You know, what is he thinking right now? I know flood the zone is always the media tactic, but like, is he, does he want a distraction in case this meeting doesn't go well? You know, it's a good question. Honestly, I don't know the answer to it. It's possible. But one of the things is that as it relates to Putin, it's going to be interesting to see how this meeting plays out because, you

Putin's got a lot of leverage here, right? I mean, he clearly has been willing to thumb his nose so far at the idea of a deal. By basically agreeing to a deal,

Zelensky has basically said it's up to Putin now. And so Putin in some ways holds the cards. Trump is going to have to navigate that, right? It's going to potentially take some convincing for Putin to want to end this war because Putin's going to say he wants a land deal of some kind likely. And is that going to be okay with Zelensky? So Putin can come into this meeting with Trump and make potentially a lot of demands. And what happens then?

Right. And then you have your RFK unredacted files, although who knows if there's anything in them. I think it's thousands and thousands and thousands of files.

Yeah, it could take a long time to get into. Thank you so much for joining the show, Alex. Thank you to all of you for watching this show and listening. Please subscribe and share this with your friends. For more of my reporting, go to tarapalmeri.com. You can sign up for my newsletter, The Red Letter. I hope you'll become a paid subscriber to support my independent journalism. That's tarapalmeri.com, T-A-R-A-P-A-L-M-E-R-I. And you can find me on YouTube at tarapalmeri, at T-A-R-A-P-A-L-M-E-R-I.

Thanks so much and I'll see you again next week.