BONUS: We go behind the scenes with Charlie and Nancy.
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He's commander listeners, is charlie here. We are so graduate of the show and we know there's still so much discussion and things to talk about, so many questions you want to answered. We really, really appreciate all you will support and feel listening and some of the comments you've made, we've loved read in them.

So for a little treat, we wanted to give you kind of like a peak behind the curtain and dig a little deeper into who AManda is and what he did. So we've got a few bonus episodes for you. I've brought in Nancy moscato o into the studio. He was the woman who, I suppose in a way, brought a under down you. The reason why .

she's in prison. Yes, I think so a little bit.

As I like to say, how many years was IT in the end that you went after AManda.

I started in two thousand and fifteen, so you went to jail in twenty twenty two.

As IT feel that we're still talking about this is .

really surprising that we still are, I thought for sure, a way back when that this would be a quick story, that this would be off. They're onna, get a quick, this should be great. That just weight, and then i'm gonna able tell the story didn't happen that way for sure.

Nancy has been so many questions around this story, around commander and around the show. We've done AManda herself. We both had contact with her, you on a very different level to me. And you know when we talk about scamp because I was quite reluctant in the first place when I was kind of right in the description for the show.

And and we would think about the title with the whole scam thing, because I feel like he is so much more more than scam, is so much more than a con, and it's so much more than money, was IT the fact that he needed attention, do you think? Or do you think he believes her own lies? What do you think IT is about, AManda, that he did this for so long?

I I do think that on some level, adolescent years or something IT was for the attention. I think that that's what is embedded in. But I think as SHE, you know, grew up and owned whatever these skills are, hard that manipulation skills, I guess, or whatever you would call limn.

I think he saw the the payoffs whether IT was in, you know, will let me help you with that or oh, let's OK stay home. I'll take care of that or don't worry about that class like SHE got rewarded for the behaviour on many, many levels. And then with that came came the money.

Because people are are naturally you want to be helpful. So I think they grew into money and then wants some money. With there, IT was game on. IT was, I was too much to resist.

I think, because we've actually found out. So join our series, we did so much. Digin, Nancy, you'd be yd kind of been digin for years before, and you kind of went after, and IT became very personal for you, and which explains to was in the series, and then you contact with me.

We had a chat, and then we started looking into IT a lot further, right? How can we tell story? What else you know? What else can we find? And this was before she's pleaded guilty and before he was convicted.

But we've actually found out since we released the podcast that this was going on a lot longer than we realized, and that's coming up in some of our future bonus episodes. So stay tuned. But how does that feel that IT was you that SHE kind of blamed and targeted for what's happened? And it's down to you really I don't feel like she's really take a responsibility for what she's done. And AManda, still to this day, you blames you and a litter who is corry AMandas husband's x wife that you both went after her and IT was out of being indicted yeah and .

I can help her with that. I mean, you you shouldn't say cancer. I don't know what to say to that because there were so many times and so many outs for her that you could have just quietly gone away or rethought what he was doing. I just misplaced anger in a way know he got caught and SHE said he got caught. I don't know yeah.

because actually not to work. There was many points, that is when you first started to call people and and say, look, information cancer, he could have just gone quiet, then he knew that you around. Then, when detective Martinez contacted her, initially was looking into the investigation, SHE could have just gone, oh yes, sorry, and walked away.

And SHE wouldn't ever actually ended up in prison or being caught. So there was made so many times. What I thought was interesting was we all went to the to a under sentencing.

And I remember speaking to a anc's before, and we were looking through some of the documents and. The only thing that AManda contested to was having you speak the sentencing. Can you wrote a victim impact actually listed as a victim by the police and buy the I L S. Yes.

focus of, uh you know, having to go to court and the expense involved in that. So when he did her like a sentencing brief, which kind of is heard what with me speeches, I like to say, like to to the judge of these are the things this is how that happened. Whatever he say at the end of that was on all of this, you know, please, I want home confident, whatever he was asking for.

And the other thing I want is for Nancy muscatel or not to be allowed to speak and read her impact statement in court. And it's like, really like I how am I still the issue? Like don't you have bigger problems? You know then me I just I found that crazy and then the then the assisting us attorney had to file a brief back saying he can speak like she's a victim and if he needs to speaker once, you know that's okay. Like the fact that they had to be this exchange is whatever I mean, at this point.

So you didn't end up speaking, they did you? No, as I didn't you end up speaking.

I think at that point I had summit IT to the judge. And I know the judge read lots of impact statements, and I thought I was important for the the victims that SHE emotionally destroyed, people like a leader and gesa and lisa, Linda, you know, there there were people that he was so personal and so indicated towards that I thought IT was more important to keep .

the focus on them. How did you make you feel though that you went are allowed to read your victim statement? We included a small piece of your victim statement in episode date, and i've seen the whole victim statement.

No, I remember when you feel ready IT for us. Are you ready to me? You work that .

my sister was loved by so many. What have forty one SHE lost her life to lung cancer. The english, my sister suffered no on her time with her Young children be cut so short was ingrained in my mind.

IT is infuriating to see a perfectly healthy person take on the plate of true warriors of cancer for financial gain and attention. For me, it's a very emotional. I am kind of connecting all the dots back into my life and why this case became so important to me, or why I wouldn't let you go in.

That focus was around my sister, my father, my, my mother, people that have died from cancer, that, you know, it's still a hole in your heart. And so that was all contained in there. And just my on a professional level, like what I what I meant or what I did to me. But again, I I really wanted just .

to give some context. So people remember he tried to describe IT you and did actually take you to court to try answer you for you accusing .

her of faking cancer yeah for harassment .

yeah in various you know I will go into more detail on I think for me.

I really wanted a leader and jessia to have their day in court and for the focus to be on them and to show the judge, not the judge here, how they were destroyed. Because to me, that that told that justice missed out on a year and a half of living room like that. Just IT makes me .

thing that is, that goes back to when I know, speaking a few minutes ago about the whole word, scm because I think that's why I was struggled with IT because I was trying to sum up this whole story because IT seems so much more than that and you just put IT into words because he is is it's emotional trauma that this impact had as well. It's not kind of just somebody I went after .

a contact of money oh yeah, the the emotional tool on everyone that donated or is trying to wrap their head around what what really was going on. The betrayal, I think, is really the the big thing. Again, we've heard from a lot of for a lot of the different people I donated IT is here.

Sure you. They ve got taking the money and that's that's annoying. But it's it's really like did a dent their spirit, did a dender way they look at life. And I even like there's some people that really scaring.

A lot of people have contacted as since what have you found out since we release this podcast who's .

contacted you? I heard from different folks from the different schools that he worked dead one school as a teacher when english teacher in one as the principle.

And there were some similarities there, you know, the idea that he would have like special prayer sessions around her, uh, asking the kids to come and pray together for her after school, or holding A A lex type thing at one point where kids came to specifically hear her testimony, let's call IT, just like you did in church. He did that to to kids in middle school. You know that to be inspirational and to be all of that. So yeah, AManda SHE pulled the kids into everything.

I had a quite a few people reach out to me and via different ways, through social media. And one of them was called hano. And thanks hanner. I reach out her and she's let me share this story.

SHE concept to me said that in two thousand and fifteen he was with hodgkin's, lm famer herself and her brother's close friend from his church reached out to help me through the process. And guess you, that was, he meant he was a under Riley. Hanna said that he began to text, call, facebook, message me, and even sent care packages and a hand made blanket to me.

I felt mothering by her and uncomfortable by how happy he was to have another member of the cancer club. SHE was just too happy to be sick and too happy that I was now sick with her. He wanted me to join clubs and support groups to go to events where cancer patients can get things for free.

eeta. Honestly, I tried to ignore her, but he kept reaching out. My husband and brother told me I was being rude and to just accept her help. I remember who actually advising mean not to go to stanford cancer center because he claims to have had a horrible experience with their doctors and said that the treatment and doctors at us, S, F. Were so much Better to facebook and and SHE SHE kind of Carries on and says about before ready starting human radiation and undertake this care package and then sent me a picture of the care package which I have in front of me, and a note, I mean, in the care package, ge theirs like books and like supportive messages and like like quite a few bi has and like a little blank kids. And there's even some like small box and you know like the box in you can kind of hang in.

you can yeah ah some .

slippers as well. And yes, if he sent a picture of that and he said i've been blown away by the lands he went to in order to make her story real, even reaching out to me, a stranger to her, to mental me through the process, SHE was so good, very convincing and so likeable. To this day, my brother has had a hard time accept in that he was faking the whole thing thing.

And then she's to thank you again for in exposing the truth that was closer comfort, validation for me listening to IT. It's really interesting because i've got quite a few more, but that was honor. And thank you, honey, for sharing .

with I think god SHE didn't listen right. Thank god and I remember AManda on on facebook or one of the twitters mentioning hand away back and I kind of like looked into IT and if every memory, I think there was a long drive for them to go to stanford and that there was husband and her would post about sleeping in the car, having to drive in the middle the night to make sure they were there and I like, thank god they listen and got the best care yeah.

SHE says, i'm so glad didn't listen to her and I followed my goods to stay with dunford.

I mean, not some his life. Yeah, why the jacket to think that? Okay, let me, let me give my two sense on this. When man a new, then he knows he doesn't APP cancer.

Another person that's contacted me, he says that he met a man der in free school. SHE was my first best friend. I have painted pizer dinner at a house and did you know that he was A A child? What what do you call IT when you in a passion is a .

child like a toller and tea?

Yes, he had trophy upon tropes. I grow with her until he moved to a different elementary school, but we connected as as adults. And he says that this podcast is actually helping her, her timeline together.

When did I arrange a drop off dinner while he was in new york receiving treatment? When did I ask for her? Where's jasp? Because he stopped appearing in family photos. And what you made me think about was even the people that we spoke to in the podcast, they didn't actually know other people's story is they only knew their own and they only could see their own.

Len, so it's kind of put in together the complexity of this whole thing and how deeply went when we ve collected all these different stories, even people reaching out now and listening, who knew her. I kind of put their own story together. People didn't really realize how complex this one did they?

No, they they didn't realize the levels. And mean, as you know, we heard from you, Stephen lisa, right by the time I found them, like I was expecting a regular phone call of, yeah, isn't IT terrible? SHE was sicker either when they dropped a bomb of two thousand and ten. That's a whole another level. I remember going.

what I remember quite distinctly, tly. That evening we are having just A A fantastic time celebrating, they said, and we broke out cigars, and I was have cigar with korean, a couple of other guys, those somewhere night, perfect weather and a perfect evening. And then corey got this sort of look on his face, and he said, AManda has staged for, she's progressed to stage for cancer.

That was another level that I didn't see comment. So yeah also when .

when we reached out of people, there was quite a few people eyes poke you off the record actually that didn't want to go on record, but they didn't want to share their story, but they just didn't want IT to go up public. And the reason why I was because they were they are actually scared of a maner. But you know, she's behind bars. What do you think that means that there they're actually scared of if if telling their story, even though she's convicted in, she's, you know, she's imprison right now.

I think the sophistication of her manipulation, I think they fear that can that be done with her, with idle time on her hands in prison? Can SHE access the internet there can SHE like that's what i'm hearing from people like they just don't trust that SHE won't be indicated at any point whether maybe when he gets out or when you know there's their deep scars. There's like I she's done.

She's but I I don't want anyone think about anymore. I understand IT and and I I don't blame people to now want to. I like when they share because I think we learn something each each time.

I mean, look, when I went through, when I speaks in the different sources I developed over the years, I was very honest with them. And I said, well, they say, well, do you think she's capable? And I i've always been honest and said, well, I do. I you should meet, right? So lot of .

going after people.

going after people and and should multiple different personalities online, like different names and people. SHE was was online that he would use to attack from different sides. So SHE created accounts to stand back someone else, right? Add someone else.

And so can you do, can you, I use you. Can you explain a little bit, but give us an example maybe, and explain what you mean.

So at one point there was a an account from AMandas sister lock. This is a quite like a half sister to a quality. And he was knocking down like a leader and different people and and making comments on their their different accounts.

And IT was pretty vicious. And at one point, I reached out to her, I reached out to cores ha sister and said, hey, here's so I am. Anyway, he was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, right?

So I sent to the links and I sent to the severity was like, yeah, not me, not me but this is making a lot of sense now SHE. They didn't have a very close relationship and he said, I I live across the country. I'm not really in touch with that much.

So but that's not i'm not doing that. That's not me. So yeah, it's it's little things like that. So I think people were just afraid of being on her radar because .

there's it's almost like these people in two campus. We've got the people that I say no kind of knew something more than right and are fearful of her and her manipulation. But then there's another camp, people that still can't believe that the amount of they knew could do this because IT doesn't match up with the amount that they knew. And even when we went to her sentencing and spots a few people, I mean, wilensi was one of them, you know, SHE we're doing, he know, in contact with linsey and check out out to linsey for sharing her story with us. But even SHE believed her right down to the last minute, because I was so confusing, not just why somebody would do this, but the amount that they knew was would never do this.

Yeah, you've put so much stock in faith in someone. And there, I mean, SHE SHE wasn't, you know, outward mean or rude or anything like that mean, if anything, he was so giving him. And look, SHE reached out to hana, right? Like here, SHE is with all the wait of the world on her.

But he took the time to reach out to hanna. What he did, that many circumstances, like if somebody knew some woman cancer, or let me talk to that person, oh, i'll talk. You know SHE put others first, you know and I think that's a very enduring quality that helped with the manipulation as well. Yeah and I mean.

i've been interviewed for a few different podcast and we have done a bit pressed together, haven't in unseen in one of the things I found myself saying quite a few times is SHE SHE was inspirational yeah i'm not going doing anything. I just not like he was inspirational and and in telling her story, which wasn't you yeah yeah he wasn't inspirationally to people which is like you that part of the there's the different .

minds like I keep saying like when I would see your post something you know being so enduring to someone else or oh you know help get together and raise money for this like my bloodwood boil because I knew i'm looking at from the perspective of she's so full of IT and this is so harried.

So he was bringing community, he was bringing created.

So it's like, it's like, wow, it's not right on and at any level. But I really like SHE her team. AManda raised raised money for sale, did the walks, did genuine ise money so that the a for her but you know in the same breath she's also flexing them for even more for her so I think that's part of IT, right? You give a little of yourself to others and then there are .

just like my coaches and they to get yeah right and this .

this case is what .

is the first unknowingly federal case of its kind and and we know that a man has got the longest sentence for ford. Where is about cancer faking cancer? And we've been contacted. I don't want us to give any details away because we we we can't because we don't want to cause any problems because we know that the some life cases going on right now, but the podcast is being used and people are listening to the pocket to learn how to make sure these people are stopped into here people and get people convicted because I was hard to get AManda convicted .

yeah I think the work that um specially gently and detective martz did is a road map now that not that it's an easy road but it's it's a road map to help other agencies kind of know like this can be done or this is how I want about IT, not me like how agents went about IT. It's interesting how prolific this type of manipulation and stuff IT is and now they're hopefully from this.

There's a road map of fantastic work that the agent agents did and that IT can be replicated. That's the goal. Now there's something out there and on the books that I think you know really help.

If you got anything you wanted, say to list, just say, thank you. Yeah, no.

fanta. I mean, I IT really I enjoy reading, you know, go into the comment and seeing the passion and the the weather they're liking. It's the way it's unraveling and and or how it's unravelling now that you're hearing us. You you finished. But yeah.

thanks for coming in, Nancy. And we do have a few more episodes, a surprise bonus ones for you. So definitely keep on listening. We're so grateful for you, and thanks again. Just like now you were saying, we love and read in the comments and if your friends haven't heard about IT, make sure they do go and share and will be vacation. Thanks so much.

Commander is hosted and produced by me, charlie webster, and produced by Jackson clinton edit and theme music by neo pola assistant producer casey hurts, assistant editor seem a grey wall additional production support from Stephen sladen gilham and the coal urban executive produced by me, Charles webster and Nancy moscot ller sander is a lies get sound production engineer by pilot media group.