The Irish Heiress: Ep. 10, Anatomy of a Con Artist
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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

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Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams.

You'll hardly feel a thing.

That is award-winning author Tori Telfer reading an excerpt from her latest book, Confident Women, about the greatest female con artists of all time. She's the perfect person to talk to about the greatest female con artist I ever met and got scammed by. I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is a bonus episode of Queen of the Con, where I interview a woman who has literally spent years researching and writing about the Mayor Smiths of the world. This is episode 10.

anatomy of a con. Tori, thank you so much for joining us today. I really, really, really enjoyed your book. I finished it in two days and it was just a rip roaring good time, which is what my Amazon review said. Thank you.

Congratulations. Just what an amazing, what an amazing tale of dozens of dozens of dozens of different con women throughout history. Yeah, well, thank you for having me. So your book focuses on female con artists. Is there a difference between male and female con artists or are all con artists the same?

On a macro level, I believe all con artists are kind of doing the same thing. But there is one very notable difference between male and female con artists, which is the stereotypes they use, the cliches that they use to get you. So male con artists are more likely to pretend to be a doctor or a lawyer or an important businessman, you know, something very male. Female con artists are

know that you're going to be a little bit suspicious of a female who's trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge because women don't, women aren't in construction. So she, so she's more likely to be a seer or a, you know, a wounded mother or a grieving widow.

Female con artists are definitely not afraid of sexist stereotypes, and they'll lean into them to get what they want. My book, Confident Women, is about con women throughout the ages, you know, from the Civil War to the Court of Marie Antoinette to today. Some of these women are still in prison today. And I've divided it into four sections, so it's kind of four different types of con women, from the con women who are really obsessed with money to the con women who are really obsessed with disguises, right?

and all shades in between. I do think my con artist, Mayor Smith, kind of borrows from every single category. It sounds like it. How did you get into con artistry? Were you a victim ever? No, of nothing more than a few minor cons, you know, the type we all experience. The roommate who doesn't do X, Y, and Z, or the person on the street who says they need money for this, but it's for that. No, I've never been like a capital V victim. I came at it through writing about female criminals.

My first book was about female serial killers. So I was looking around for something a little lighter. But as you know well, con artists are not as light as people think they are, right? It's like all fun and games at first, and then it gets really dark.

Yeah, it's all fun and games until it happens to you. You know, your book brought me so much comfort in a strange way. After I realized I was conned, I felt so alone, like I'm the only one this ever happened to. But then I started finding a bunch of other victims of my con artist and I read your book.

And I realized that being a con artist is a lot of people's full-time profession, you know? Yeah. It was Mayor Smith's full-time profession. I had no idea. Con artists are literally everywhere. But until one cons you, you have no idea. You just have no idea. I like the excerpt you read from your book. The con woman's likability is the single most important tool she has. As soon as I read that, I was like, yes, yes, yes.

Yes, that was Mare. She was so likable. She was so lovable. And that's how she got deep into her victims' lives to con them. And that's something you found again and again and again in your book. You got to fall in like with them immediately.

Immediately, because if they're not likable and if you don't personally like them, then it becomes clear how outrageous their demands are or the cracks in their story become so apparent. I mean, it's like we would do a lot of things for our friends, right? If a friend asked to borrow a cup of sugar, borrow $5, that's not weird. If a total stranger on a street asks

those same things are gonna be wary. So the con woman has to become our friend really fast. And yeah, like all these women in my book are so good at socializing. It's really stunning. - Yeah, she's skilled, a skilled socializer. She knows how to get in deep and get in quick and make you like her. That's the common thread. I've spoken to, my gosh, dozens of victims of Mayor Smith and all of them say the same thing. They liked her immediately. - Wow, yeah, I'm not surprised.

What is the psychological profile of a con? What motivates them? What drives them? I think con artists have a lot of different things going on. But if I was going to find one or two commonalities, money is a huge one. It's not that romantic, but it is such a consistent presence in these stories. But I think another commonality is power. You know, power over the victims, over their own narrative, over their own stories.

And actually, that's something I saw in serial killers, too. It's very different crimes, but the criminal comes down to having this desire for power over other people. It's funny you say that. It kind of reminds me, and don't hate me for saying this, rape. Rape is not really about sex most times. Exactly. It's about power, and it's also about...

having, instilling fear in someone's eyes and getting off on that fear. Yes. Yeah, I think that crimes, or at least these particularly violent or just major crimes, are often not about what...

they sound like on the surface. Which ties into a belief I held for like 10 years now, especially living in this town, Los Angeles, nothing is what it appears to be. Looks are deceiving. Things look one way when really it's the other way, but you have no idea until you're into it. It's all a facade. Yeah, it's all a facade. One of my favorite movies of all time is Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Have you seen that movie? A long time ago, so don't quiz me on it. Yeah.

Steve Martin, Michael Caine. It's about, you know, con women and con men on the French Riviera. I was showing Nico's property in Florida. He goes, if I'm going to invest 16 million bucks, I want to do it someplace new. I say, like, where? He goes, how about Australia? And then he hits me. Boom, Australia. What, are you kidding me? We got to go meet Mr. Australia himself, I say. So he goes, why not? I go, why not? Pretty soon the whole group goes, why not?

So here we are. And never for a second did I think any of those gargantuan, elaborate, unbelievable cons featured in the movie were based on real stories. But your book is chock full of stories like that. And each con is more elaborate and magnificent than the one before. The woman pretending to be Maria Antoinette. I'd never heard this story before until I read your book. She scams a jeweler out of a million dollar diamond necklace and

essentially using elaborate impersonations and really forged letters, right? That was Mayor Smith's go-to, the modern day equivalent of forged letters, forged emails to scam people. Wow. How is that story not better known? How have I never, you know, I'm an educated guy. I am well-read. I've never heard that story before. Why is it not more known? Why is there not like a big Hollywood movie about the Marie Antoinette necklace scam?

I think there are two reasons. One is probably just plain old-fashioned sexism. We do know the stories of con men a lot better. Ponzi, Madoff, Abagnale, the guy who sold the Brooklyn Bridge twice. These are just more famous than the con women's stories. But in terms of this specific con woman, she was really a nobody. She was an orphan. She was poor. She was not very proper. And I

I think that historians with a capital H looked down on her story for a very long time and were like, oh, that can't possibly be worthy of examining. But as a matter of fact, she kind of, you know, she was one of the things that kicked off the French Revolution, actually.

My gosh, just such a compelling story. And it reminded me of Mare because, like you said, she came from nowhere. She was poor. But through fake emails and fake text messages and impersonating different people, she could appear to be this well-connected woman dating a politician, an Irish heiress worth millions. All of these things came to life with Mare when you'd read emails addressed to her. Her best friend was Jennifer Aniston. Of course. Yes.

Jennifer Aniston would text and email her all the time and she would show the victim, look, Jennifer Aniston just texted me this, just email me this. Okay. You know, there's a fake Brad Pitt in my book. So this is, there are so many parallels here. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Psychic Rose Marks.

is another con artist you profile in your book. She scams, I mean, she scams a bunch of people, but really her best known victim is an author, Jude Devereaux. She scams Jude out of $20 million using a thousand different confidence tricks and emotional manipulations over the course of years. In my estimation, Rose Marks is a

is what Mare Smith was working towards, but she never found such a wealthy client. Mare ended up scamming tens of thousands from a bunch of different clients, and that's all they could afford to pay. But I guess she was looking for a big fish like Rosemarks found. Yeah, I think Rosemarks really lucked out when it comes to being a con artist. There can't be that many, you know, extremely successful millionaires who...

happened to be in a vulnerable position when the con artist comes around. I mean, for this poor author, Jude Devereaux, it was just like a horrifically perfect situation when she met the con woman. She was having marriage troubles. She couldn't have a kid. You know, just everything in her life was...

upset. And so Rosemary swooped in and was able to maintain this decades long relationship. But I think she kind of just got lucky. Like there probably aren't too many people like that out there for the people like Mara Smith to find.

Yes, but she did do damage. I'll reveal to listeners now something that's not in any of the podcasts and we didn't cover because we never got an actual interview from this victim who Mare scammed as a psychic. So this victim came to see Mare as a psychic and she ended up testifying against her. You'll hear her in episode eight. She testifies on the stand against her. She found Mare as a psychic and then Mare quickly convinced her, oh, by the way, I'm also a psychologist. I have a degree in psychology.

So I also offer life coaching. So she started offering this woman life coaching and then quickly impersonated. The woman confided in her, I'm in love with this guy, you know, and think to yourself, how many times have you been in love with someone? You would move heaven and earth to get them, right? So Mare seizes on that. She starts impersonating the guy.

And she tells the victim, oh, by the way, the guy you're in love with, he's also taking life coaching from me. And I know this is improper, but I can broker a romance, you know, if you want me to. It's going to take so many more life coaching sessions. You know, so over the course of a year, this victim shells out

$10,000, $10,000 because she thinks, you know, and every time she comes for a life coaching, mayor would show her a text. Oh, look at what Jesse, Jesse was the guy's name. Look at what Jesse just texted me. He's thinking about you. He's going to ask you out. So it wasn't until a year into it. The woman finally realized Jesse wasn't taking life coaching from her. Like it was all a scam to shake money out of her. And she was just devastated, you know?

Oh, that's got to hurt so much. Yeah. I mean, the audacity to pull off something like that is just mind-blowing to me. And it's heartless. You really can't have any feeling or empathy for another human being to impersonate the one they're in love with and then try to trick them out of money. No. Most of these con women are incredibly selfish. You know, I would say maybe after their likability, that's the most notable thing about them. I mean... Yeah, because the likability is all fake. Oh, totally. And they don't like...

anyone except themselves.

Exactly. And who they present themselves to be isn't real. So what you're liking as a victim, because she was my best friend for four years. I loved her. She was like a sister. But all of that was fake. I never really knew the real her. The real her, she's a con woman who scammed 43, 45 victims all over the world. I never knew that was the real her. The woman that I saw was a damsel in distress, an Irish heiress who I'm helping get her inheritance. I even feel stupid saying that out loud, but...

But I fell for it. I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're not alone at this.

As you know well, so many victims of con artists don't come forward because they do feel so gullible and ashamed. Very true. And I've had so many arguments with victims on the phone because they would call me, victims of my con artists, and they'd tell me the story. There were a couple real estate investors in New York that she scammed out of 60 grand because she tricked them into believing her daughter had cancer and needed emergency surgery and insurance didn't cover it. And she needed $60,000 quick.

There's always an element of, I need this quick because she's going to die. So they wired her 60 grand. Oh, there's always wires. Always wired. Money's always being wired. Always wires. Yeah. That's yeah. So when someone asks you for a wire, make sure you're not getting conned because that's like a red flag, right? Yeah.

Near the end of my investigation, after police arrested Mayer, these New York real estate guys called me up and were like, "Hey, we want to pay you. We want to reward you for what you've done. We want to help you." And I'm like, "I don't want your money, guy. I want you to go to police and file a report so she can get arrested in New York. That would help me. Can you do that?" But they didn't want to because they're embarrassed they fell for it.

After your entire world is flipped upside down,

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ...schools and girls, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast for all things afterlife.

I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling. When she was with her imaginary friend, she would turn and look at you, and you felt like something else was looking at you too. Some unnerving. The more I looked at it, I realized that the thumb looked more like a claw, like a demon.

Some even downright terrifying. The things that I saw, heard, felt in that house were purely demonic. But all of them will be totally true. Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you live and get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session, 24 hours. BPM 110, 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people.

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I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words.

That I've said, like, in my head for, like, 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Sante Kimes. She was...

kind of like Mayor Smith on steroids, right? Yes. She would introduce her husband, Kenneth, as an ambassador, a ploy that got them into a lot of important places, like the White House during the Ford administration. She kind of looked a little bit like Elizabeth Taylor, if you squinted, so she would impersonate Elizabeth Taylor. And...

her last con led to murder, essentially, right? Because she didn't start out a murderer. She tried to scam this New York socialite out of her $7.7 million apartment and

Similar to Mayer, Mayer tried to scam Bob, the Newport Beach engineer, out of his two homes. She tried to trick him into adding her name to the title of his two homes because she was going to buy this $15 million Newport Beach home with her 25 million inheritance that was coming any day. They got a realtor. She looked at the house a bunch of times. Bob brought his kids one of the last times to pick out their bedroom. She was going to buy one of the kids a Lamborghini.

Like the kids loved her and she put in an offer on the house.

You know, as long as it's on paper, you can do anything, right? And con artists know this. But what differentiates Mare Smith from Sante Kimes is Mare didn't actually kill anyone yet, but Sante did. Why did Sante kill that woman? Well, Sante actually killed more than one person or rather had her son do it. This wealthy woman was her third victim. And...

I think she's an example of what happens when a con artist... Well, let me rephrase. Maybe... I don't think that every con artist is capable of murder. I mean, that's a huge... That's a very different crime. But in this case, things escalated and she got in so deep and she was so desperate for money and she did amazing.

million cons but none of them were quite working out I don't know if Mare ever reached that point where she had her cons bubbling but the money wasn't quite coming in and so that's when things escalated to murder because it was out of desperation or and in one murder no two murders out of a fear that the victim would talk

So it was a very like end of the road type scenario for her, if that makes sense. It does make sense. And I used to think Mayor Smith was not capable of murder, but I have since reevaluated because for the first time ever, we spoke to her daughter.

Her daughter ended up testifying against her during the trial. And her daughter wove this tale of being raised by a con artist. Her daughter, she was having her daughter forge signatures on hundreds of mortgage documents. You know, she got away with like half a million dollars from Northern Ireland. And her daughter, as a child, unknowingly helped her do that. So...

Someone tipped Mare off that police in Northern Ireland are investigating her. So they had to get out of there quick. And while they're packing up, Mare's husband at the time, Stephen Smith, he had like 17 greyhounds. He was a greyhound racer. So they didn't have time to rehome them. So Mare made him put down the 17 greyhounds. Wow. Oh, no.

Yeah. Killed 17 dogs without even thinking about it. Oh, she's Cruella de Vil. She is. And she wore them back to Tennessee. Kidding. We don't know that. I don't think she did. But after I heard that story, and I'm a dog owner, I take it you're a dog owner. I'm not, but a dog lover, a dog sympathizer. Yes. If she has the cold bloodedness to do that, she could kill. She could kill without even a piece of remorse or guilt. She could kill.

Yeah, yeah. That shows some real narcissism. You know, dogs are in my way. Dogs get killed. This story...

I mean, I'm a little bit jealous I didn't hear about it for my book. It's so intense. It's as if con artist Mare Smith read your book and chose different elements from all the female con artists you profiled to create her own con artist self. She mixes and matches from all the great cons in your book, which is just amazing. But I know that's impossible because your book only came out this year and she's been conning since she was a little girl.

Yes. Con artists are very intelligent people. That's a fair statement. Yes. But for being so intelligent, they make a lot of stupid mistakes that ultimately lead to their demise. Why is that? My con artist...

gave me her email password at one point in our relationship. Two years in, she's stuck on the highway in traffic. She thinks she can't get into her email account from her phone. She thinks she's hacked. She calls me. I'm at work. I got hacked. I got hacked. So she asked me to log in and make sure her email account was still okay. So I did, and it was, and I forgot the whole thing ever happened until a few months after I got conned. I'm like, oh my God, I have her email password.

Did it still work? Yes. Oh, I logged into her account. I found 23 other aliases. I found a bunch of other victims she was scamming. She had a profile on sugardaddyforme.com. Men were paying her monthly fee for sex. Then she was blackmailing them to go to their wives when they wanted to end the payment arrangement. Wow, another classic con. Yes. But I wasn't the only one she gave her email password to. She gave it to another victim she was scamming when the victim was helping her set up an Amazon Fire Stick.

So it's like she's so smart and yet so dumb. Maybe it's stemming from the narcissism we keep talking about where it's like they assume everyone else is dumb or just not at their level. So it's like, it's no big deal to give you my email password because you're not going to create 23 aliases and you don't know how I work. You know, it seems to me to be a very narcissistic move. Like, sure, you can go ahead and have my password. I don't care. You'll never catch me.

ironically, you did catch her. I do think it's a case of like, you know that famous statement, how does it go? Does the lion ever waste time thinking about what the lambs are doing? Yeah, or the sheep. So we're all like sheep to her and she's the lion thinking, oh, I can give them my password. I can give them ammunition against me, but they'll never use it because they're too stupid. You know, she's overly confident in that case. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Another thing she did that ultimately led to her demise is while she was dating her Newport Beach victim, Bob, she texted me a picture of him and asked me what I thought of him. And I said, oh, he's a good looking guy. I think he's great. Go for it because we were best friends. But I ended up using that very picture of Bob and I started my blog with, I know his name is Bob. I know he's an engineer in Newport Beach and I know Mayor Smith is scamming him. And I didn't really believe for a second that Bob would actually find my blog, but I

By God, he did. Wow. His ex-wife found it.

And sent it to him, and then he ended up dumping Mayer. And, you know, she was this close. She had drawn up the paperwork for him to add her name to the titles of his two Newport Beach homes. Because she put an offer on this $15 million home she's going to buy. And it comes so close. He found it in the nick of time. Your blog saved him. It did. But that's her fault. Like, if I didn't have that picture of him, there was no way. If I started a blog without the picture, you know...

It wouldn't resonate. No one would know who I'm talking about. But his ex-wife Googled her, found his picture, found my blog and realized she's a con artist. But she would get off on that. She would have barbecues and dinner parties with multiple victims she's scamming and multiple victims she's told different stories to. So at any point, one of us could have said something where the stories didn't match up and outed her, but we never did.

But she must have got off on that razor thin, like I can get caught any minute. Yeah, that sounds like some very classic thrill-seeking behavior, you know? Like maybe she unconsciously or subconsciously wanted to increase the stakes for herself. She wanted to flirt with getting caught, increase the danger. And so she gave you passwords and pictures just to like up the stakes. Right, will this be enough for them to catch me or not? It's weird. It's super weird.

What is your takeaway? You've studied con artists for years and you put a ton of research into your book, Confident Women, which most people don't know. And I mentioned this in my podcast, but we can repeat it here. Con artist is short for confidence artist. Yes, very few people know that. I didn't know it myself before I started my book. I felt like I was born knowing it at this point because they instilled confidence in their victims, in them, to scam them. And they're also very confident people themselves.

Absolutely. But do you believe con artists are born or are they made? I think it's a little of both, but I will say many of the women in my book, I do think were born into some form of conning. I mean, the con artists who do have that pathological liar streak, that sociopathic streak, are

born. Because I don't think you can grow into a sociopath, right? That's something, I mean, I don't know if we fully understand it yet as a species. But it's interesting you bring up the phrase or the term sociopath. So for the longest time, I believed Mare was a sociopath, but I've since done some research about sociopaths versus psychopaths. I'm not even sure what the difference is anymore. I've read so many conflicting definitions of the two. And I'm

Today in our culture, as I'm sure you've noticed, we use them totally interchangeably. I'm a Google expert, so my latest Google tells me, psychopaths tend to be more manipulative, can be seen by others as charming, lead a semblance of a normal life, and minimize risk in criminal activities. A psychopath doesn't have the ability to feel guilt.

Whereas a sociopath tends to be more erratic and rage-prone, and they're unable to lead a normal life. When a sociopath commits a crime, it's usually spur of the moment or a reaction in a rage. It's not planned. Okay, okay. I mean, we definitely use them interchangeably in culture, but that's really good to know. So sociopath is more of like a berserker, maniac type. Right. Can't control his emotions. Exactly. Exactly.

But a psychopath is the CEO or the politician. Yeah, they can look normal. They can be friendly and charming, and they know what they're doing, and they're not going to get caught. Mayor Smith is a psychopath. But I think she was born a psychopath because in the podcast, we hear from her childhood friend who knew her at 11, 12 years old.

Mayor Smith tricked this girl, Mayor Smith is a girl herself, tricking another girl into going into a stranger's house, going into a bedroom, putting on a stranger's clothes and taking a picture. And it made such a mark in this girl's life who's now a woman, Jen Westwood, who called me up because she's like, why did she have me do that? It just doesn't make any sense. But it's an 11-year-old girl flexing her muscle of manipulation. Can I get this girl to do these crazy things? Yes, I can.

Ooh, that's so sinister. And it's that risk-taking behavior too, you know? It's like, will I get caught? Will she get caught? So that makes me think, you know, Mayor Smith is a born con artist. Yeah, I buy that. She claims she had childhood trauma. She claims she was molested to other people. But I don't believe that because she tried to make her daughter claim she was molested by her grandfather, and it wasn't true. Oh.

Yeah, it wasn't true. And that drove the daughter against Mare early on because she was trying to get her to lie to say she was molested when she wasn't. Wow, that's really dark. It is dark. But there's a light at the end of this tunnel. Good. Come with me. Yay! Yay!

After your entire world is flipped upside down,

From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal. This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me.

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask.

I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs. From the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy.

So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the Weird Little Guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ...ghoules and girls, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast for all things afterlife. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week straight from the person who experienced it firsthand...

Some will be unsettling. When she was with her imaginary friend, she would turn and look at you and you felt like something else was looking at you too. Some unnerving. The more I looked at it, I realized that the some looked more like a claw, like a demon. Some even downright terrifying. The things that I saw, heard, felt in that house were purely demonic. But all of them will be totally true.

Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you live and get your podcasts. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is in

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words.

That I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Miss Spelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session, 24 hours. BPM 110.

120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm.

Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Marismith's daughter did end up testifying against her. And one of the most profound things she said in talking to her in the interview is...

And I'm quoting Chelsea here. My mom is always far away from the place that she's lying about. She grew up in Maine, but I grew up in Tennessee. So she was lying to a bunch of people in Tennessee about stuff that happened in Maine. So she always makes sure her lies are hard to dispute.

Is that a theme you see in the con artists you studied? They're lying about things that it's hard to check the truth of what they're lying about. So you let it go. Oh, 1000%. I don't even know which anecdote to start with. I mean, there's a woman in my book who lived during the time of the civil war. Her name was probably Loretta J. Williams, but we don't really know. I remember this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she,

She wrote a memoir about, you know, dressing as a man and fighting for the Confederate side. And she made it hard to fact check by conveniently leaving out last names.

I'm coloring the details. So it's like, you know, she says she fought under General Dave. Like, who can fact check that? There might be a hundred of them. There might be a hundred. And then the distance thing reminded me a lot of Margaret Lydia Burton, who actually conned with her daughter. And they were moved around the U.S. like so frequently. They were on the run. Always on the run. That's such a great chapter in your book. Yeah. But they, Margaret, which was her real name, was...

always lying about the place she had just come from. So, you know, she would run from Virginia to Georgia and then she would say, back in Virginia, I was a general's wife, but he died tragically and I lost both my kids, you know. So, and this is in the 50s too. So we don't, people can't look her up on Facebook or whatever. Right, you could just Google her, yeah. Right, and so it's like, okay, she told me she was a wealthy widow from Virginia. I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, like...

What are you going to do? We're prone to believe... So yeah, that distance thing is a big part of a lot of these cons. Yeah, they're always lying about someplace far away that it's hard to check. Yes. Interesting. So I have a question about psychics. The vast majority of psychics, I think, are con artists. Is that your take? I guess. I mean, I hate to throw a whole population under the bus. Just the majority. I mean, do you believe psychics are real? I...

don't know for sure but I will say I wouldn't be surprised if someone if I got a vision if someone told me for sure like this person can actually just have some connection to the spirit realm I would believe that I think there have been instances in history of people who just had these extra sensory powers but

That being said, you know, I talked to Rosemark's son, the psychic's son, and he was very much talking about how all the psychics in their area, in their community, were using the same tricks as his mom, but his mom happened to get caught and go to jail. So just based on that little piece of anecdotal evidence, you know, he seemed to think they were all doing the same thing, which would imply that they are all con artists. I mean...

I do believe psychics are real and I do believe Mayor Smith

had psychic abilities. Really? I've witnessed her read strangers and bring them to tears with specific things. One time this woman sits down, we went to a party and the hotel had hired Mare to do readings for the guests. So my husband and I are there and, you know, a woman sits down and Mare's like, you're dating a guy in LA and New York. You got to make a decision or you're going to lose them both. And the woman just starts crying. Like, I don't know what to do. Like,

How did she pick that out of the air? - Okay, are you positive she didn't research the guests beforehand? 'Cause some psychics do that. - I'm positive because they were random hotel guests. You couldn't know, this is a party open to the public. You don't know who's gonna be there. - Okay.

So, you know, there are some psychics who are good people working hard and trying to do good for the world. But a lot of psychics are con artists, especially Rose Marks, when they start telling you, it's going to, you're going to have to sacrifice this much money if you want this good thing to happen. And you're going to have to give this much money if you want this good thing. And I can set a spell, you know. Right. Once huge amounts of money get involved, then it's no, you're no longer doing a service. You know, you're no, you're no longer providing a solace to people.

And something I'm going to shock you with, because as I'm interviewing you now, the podcast is still being edited. You haven't heard it. You have no idea. But this was a revelation. Mare Smith practiced witchcraft. She's spooky. I'm scared of her. Yeah, she is spooky. She would do these binding spells where she uses chicken bones doused with dragon's blood. Do you know what dragon's blood is? No. No.

It's not blood from a dragon. It's some kind of oil they sell in botanicas where voodoo people go to buy their... It's like a target for witchcraft, a botanica. And she would get these penis-shaped candles and carve a man's name into it and burn it. It's supposed to make the man want you. Wow. And she had voodoo dolls. She practiced witchcraft. Is that a thing you've seen with con women you've studied? Were any of them witches? I know you have a chapter, The Spiritualists. Yes.

Where you talk about people wanting to communicate with the dead. So they'll pretend they're talking to your dead relative if you pay them so much money. And they have all the parlor tricks and the noises and the light and the smoke. Yeah, none of them were practicing witches. I don't think any of the women in my chapter bought their own shtick.

At all. So no, that's not something I've seen. I mean, do you think Mare was just doing it as like an aesthetic thing to seem more spooky? Or do you think she really meant it?

No, she really meant it because other accounts I've heard that are not included that I'll mention here from other victims, when she would want to shut someone up, and I know she must have done this with me when I was onto her, she would go and buy the whole tongue of a cow. And she would cut the tongue. Apparently you can buy cow tongues from places like a butcher shop. I mean, I'm a vegetarian. The whole thing disgusts me.

But she would buy a cow tongue. She would cut the cow tongue open. She'd write the person's name on a piece of paper, put it in the cow tongue, sew it up, and then freeze it. And that person can no longer speak ill of you because their name is on a piece of paper in a cow tongue frozen. Well, it didn't work for you. It didn't work. But I do believe she believed. She believed that it would work. I believe she did. Yeah.

So do you think your name is in a cow tongue in a freezer still? I am sure. And it's an honor. How many people can say they're in a frozen cow tongue? But I can. Very few. Ultimately, I believe good triumphs over evil eventually. And I think that's what happened here. And I'm glad I got her. And it turned me on to this whole world of con artists. And my God, your book, I had such a good time reading it. And it brought me so much comfort because...

It just made me feel like I'm not alone. I was the victim of, I know they say prostitution's the oldest profession, but I disagree. I think con artistry is the oldest profession.

And con artists are everywhere. So if you're listening, the next time a stranger introduces themself into your life and they're kind and loving and they want to help and they want to become friends real fast, you're probably getting conned. And do not do wire transfers. Do not. If anyone wants you to wire them money, it's a con. Yes. Tori Telfer, thank you so much for joining us here today. Your book, Confident Women, is available anywhere books are sold online.

It's a page turner. I read it in two days. And you also do a podcast also. Criminal Broads. If you like stories of women who've committed crimes, I've got about 62 of them. I have a feeling Mayor Smith is going to be 63. Yes. Well, you have yourself a great day, Tori. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. All righty. Bye-bye.

Queen of the Con, the Irish heiress, is a production of AYR Media and iHeart Radio, hosted by me, Jonathan Walton. Executive Producers: Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Jonathan Walton. Consulting Producer: Evan Goldstein. Senior Associate Producer: Eric Newman.

Sound design by Cameron Tagge. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Tagge. Audio engineering by Elliot Herman. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Chandler Mays.

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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.

Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all.

Dr. Joy here. I invite you to join me every Wednesday on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly chat about mental health and personal development, where my expert guests and I discuss the unique challenges and triumphs faced by Black women through the lens of self-care, pop culture, and building the best version of you. So if you're looking for more ways to incorporate wellness into your life, listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.