Shawn Mendes: How to Let Go of Your Past Self and Fully Embrace Who You’ve Become Today
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Hi, I'm Essie Kopp, and I've spent my career interviewing people about politics, presidential elections, and some really tough breaking news. But now I need a break. I think you do, too.

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Simultaneously, the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my life every time. Yeah. It actually became kind of like a joke during the making of this album because

When I would walk into the studio and I, you know, people would see on my face immediately if I'm having anxiety or panic and they would be like, we're going to write a good song today. We're thrilled to announce that we've reached 3 million subscribers. We're incredibly grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on any of our new releases.

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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so grateful to be with you in this very, very special place today with a human that I'm so lucky to call a friend. And it's kind of strange sitting opposite him with a microphone in front of me because this is not usually how we spend time together.

And I can honestly say that this individual is someone you already know. He needs no introduction, but whenever he speaks, you hear truth in his voice. Whenever he sings, you hear his heart through it.

Whenever he's around anyone, I've seen him light up every room he walks into and radiate goodness and genuineness around him. And his new music is going to do that in such a powerful, beautiful, thoughtful way. And I can't wait for you to hear it. And we're so lucky that we get to be

In the womb of where his work's being created right now, I'm sitting down with my dear friend, incredible musician, phenomenal human, and all-around great dude, Shawn Mendes. Shawn, it's good to see you, man. Crazy. Finally. Finally. After four years of hikes...

It feels like longer than four years, man. It does feel like four years. But yesterday night I went back and traced back the first time we messaged. 2020. 2020, yeah. So I was like, yeah, I was like, I thought it was longer too. But it's been a lot of deep time there. Yeah, it's been crazy. And I mean, we've been talking about wanting to do this, but yeah, I knew the right time would just appear. And it just feels like,

So the right time and I guess for everyone you guys don't really know that like the last four years Jane I had this beautiful relationship where we go on these hikes and we just kind of catch up and and

Yeah, man, you've just been beyond there for me for so long. So I love you and I'm just, I'm so grateful and this is so important to me and I'm honored to be here and I just, all the things, man. Yeah, truly. Brother, thank you for saying that. The feeling's mutual. I think it's really interesting when you connect with someone and you're being kind and saying I was there for you, but I think you've equally been there for me. Hope so. And you've helped me see things in myself that I wouldn't have seen if I didn't know you.

And I think watching you reflect through the process you've been through in the last four years and watching you be so inward focused kind of forced me to do more self-work as well. And so I think it's been a beautiful mutual relationship, but let's dive straight into it. I actually want you to

share with people where we are because this is not my studio and we're in this beautiful place and I think you're the best person to give us a visual tour if you're watching and if you're listening. Yeah, if you're listening, we're sitting in the middle of a live room in a studio called The Clubhouse in upstate Rhinebeck, New York. If you're watching, you're seeing all the beautiful candles and stuff. This is probably one of my favorite places in the whole world. This is the...

room that oh man, I mean I've made all of my albums here all of my music and I've had Some of the most magical moments of my life in this room and so I'm gonna be probably a little emotional just like even sitting in here just because as I sit here and as we talk it's just memories kind of circling around um of just like time and

Yeah, it's an amazing studio. Yeah, you can feel it. I felt it when I walked in and I can feel it right now. There's a different energy in here. So I'm so grateful that you allowed us to come in and share this with the rest of the world through this interview. And it's really beautiful actually being in a space where an artist creates and moves and

cries and breathes. And I think it's rare. You don't really get access to that. I think you go see artists in a concert or in a public space, but you don't really get this. And I thought where I wanted to start this interview is kind of roll back to your announcement about tour and you talk about this.

in your song, Who I Am, you say, and I'm going to be looking at my notes a lot because I haven't yet learned all your lyrics off by heart. And I know the fans are going to be really heartbroken. They're like, Jay, how have you not done this yet? But if I'm on my phone, I'm reading lyrics back to you. So in Who I Am, it says, it broke my heart when I canceled tour, had my soul and my heart going back and forth. And I wanted to read the message you actually put up

on Instagram at the time because I remember it going out. We were talking about it. We were talking the night before. You were actually the person I texted at like 1am that night when I was just in complete spin of what to do. And I just remember feeling so much like, I think in those situations, it feels really hard to ask people to give you advice or to

give you an opinion because it's such a big deal, you know, to do something like that. And I remember assuming you were going to reply something along the lines of, you can do it, you know, just, you know, you got it. Like we can do this, you know, we can figure out a way. And you were just like, in the most loving way. I can't remember exactly something along the lines of just like, whatever you need, take care of yourself, you know? And I remember when I read that, my whole body just like sunk into the bed and I was like, oh God, like,

Yeah, that was really important to me. So thank you for that. But yeah, so sorry, go on. No, yeah, no, no, no. I'm so glad that you remember that. I remember you telling me that, you know, on tour an artist has to do something like, or someone like yourself has to do like 150 shows minimum. And I remember asking you, at what point do you feel like you can't do another show? And you said around like 50. Yeah.

And I was just like, what? I was like, so wait, you have to do a hundred. And it was so funny because I went on my world tour last year. I only did 40 shows. Yeah. And I felt it around 33. Yeah. And I was like, wow. It probably has something to do with relative to when the end is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but 50 is early. Like any race, you know. And so anyway, you said there were two times you posted about it, but this one you said, this breaks my heart to have to say this, but unfortunately I'm going to have to postpone the next three weeks of shows because

I've been touring since I was 15, and to be honest, it's always been difficult to be on the road, away from friends and family. After a few years off the road, I felt like I was ready to dive back in, but the decision was premature, and unfortunately, the toll of the road and the pressure has caught up to me, and I've hit a breaking point.

After speaking with my team and health professionals, I need to take some time to heal and take care of myself and my mental health first and foremost. As soon as there are more updates, I promise you, I will let you know. Love you guys. Yeah.

Walk me through how hard that time was for you mentally, physically, even before having to send that message. Because I think when people see that message, they think you've just decided it. Yeah. But really it's something you've been holding for months, weeks, maybe even years. Yeah. And I think like the reality is anyone who does anything at all,

a high level knows that it's hard. It's hard. Like anything you want to do that's extraordinary is hard. So there are going to be these moments where it feels really hard and it feels like you can't do it. And that I think every athlete or performer or anyone knows, you know, that there are these dips and these peaks and that's just part of it. The problem is that for me, the hardest part about being in a state of...

I don't even know the right word to describe it, but you could say, you know, depression. You could say anxiety. You could say just general darkness or lowness. The hardest thing about that is not the feeling that way. It's that the feeling that way...

makes you look at your life through that lens and therefore all the love that's around you and all the people who are loving you and supporting you, you can't even see that love anymore. And so it's all just kind of getting consumed by this feeling. I mean, I've done a lot of tours and that was, you know, and I've been in hard places before and I think the reality was that it just became really, really clear to me that

I needed to diversify in life, you know, and that since I was a kid, my entire life had been about one thing. It had been about performing and making music and just a constant kind of cycle. And it was amazing. But the reality is that

I really do believe the all your eggs in one basket is a dangerous way. And I was the number one rooter of like, I have no plan B, I don't have plan B. And I had nowhere to go when things were getting hard. I didn't have other aspects of life that I felt connected to that I could have leaned into to have a little bit of a break from touring and come back and just find that balance.

I knew there was only one way of doing that and it was by step by step just like creating a life, you know. And so, yeah, I mean, canceling that tour was by far the hardest decision of my life and by far the greatest decision of my life. And it gave me a life, you know, it really it gave me time to...

discover so much about myself and yeah I'm smiling now because it's so far away and but it it uh yeah it's so much for me you know who did you feel I know later on you talk about in the same song this idea of I feel pressure from the people that I love and it hurts yeah but I know I gotta do it gotta put me first like who do you feel

you were letting down at the time, yourself and others? Yeah, I think the reality is it's not just as the artist, it's not just you that sacrifices everything to do that. You have a team of almost 100 people who are away from their families for a year and they're every day working, they're not sleeping, they're sacrificing everything to put this show on. That was one of the hardest pills to swallow, you know, it was just like,

man. And like, they are excited to like, you know, you gotta be an insane person to be a touring crew or, or anyone on tour. You have to truly love it. You have to understand that like, this is profoundly greater than you and what's happening is magical. And so, and it was like not letting people down and like, we've worked so hard. It was like, oh man, people were excited. You know, people were proud of what they, they created and,

That was the hard part. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like, I remember when we would talk about it then, there was also this weight around it where it was like, you'd had this growth period in your life where, as you said, you've been doing this since you were 15. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you were kind of getting the growth opportunity to say, I get to make my own decisions now. And I remember like just learning from you about that dynamic of,

young people who become successful and famous and very, very early on, it's like you're still a kid. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, well, am I allowed to make my own decisions? Am I allowed to say I don't want to do something? Walk me through a bit of that reflective process because I think it's not an age thing. I think we all go through this arc in our life where we go- Am I going to be the one to make the decisions now? Am I going to take the responsibility? Yeah. And I think-

Yeah, that's the hardest part is it really comes down to the moment you're prepared to take responsibility for your life and for everything that goes wrong and for everything that goes right. And it's hard, you know, because your whole life you have your parents to either rely on, like, you know, you look at them and they go, okay, yeah, well, they said. It's always kind of like you can deflect that.

responsibility onto someone else, whether it's my manager or someone. And yeah, that was just like, this is going to be a big decision I make and there's going to be repercussions here and I'm going to have to be responsible for it. And

Yeah, it's kind of just like that. And the beautiful thing is that once I did that, it felt like now, okay, that was the kind of big one. And then every other little decision, it was kind of like, well, here I am again making another decision.

you kind of go like I'm sorry to bring my sister into this but like for you Aaliyah but like she's like oh I don't want to she's like can't I just not have the responsibility and I'm like that's not how it works like once you start taking responsibility you just got to keep taking responsibility and it's simultaneously grueling but also so much more rewarding because when it goes well you know

It's you who put yourself in that position. So, yeah. You said something beautiful just now. You said it was the hardest decision and it was the greatest decision. Yeah. Have you found those two things often go together or would you say that's not the case? I find that simultaneously the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my life every time. Yeah. It actually became kind of like a joke during this making of this album because...

when I would walk into the studio and I, you know, people would see on my face immediately if I'm having anxiety or panic.

And they would be like, we're going to write a good song today. Like every time it was like there was some sort of healing crisis that had to happen. I had to like get through this pain, this fear, this anxiety, these tears, this anger, something. And on the other end of that was just like plain truth. And plain truth was just the best ingredients for a song, you know. So yeah, I do. How does an artist ever find peace then? That's a great question. I think like I would be...

following through and I do follow through even if there's no song to write, you know, I think we're so taught, especially in so many societies and cultures, but like, I feel like in the West, we're so taught to just, there's a time and place for things. If you're in an interview and tears are about to come, if you're in an interview and anger is about to happen, you can't let that happen. And I really have noticed that like, if you can just like,

express it in an honest, calm way, most likely a more beautiful thing is going to come through that than what you desired. You know, I would do that if there was no song that came out of it. That's kind of my way of moving through life. It's like I head to the gym and I'm like, if I walk into the gym today and I'm crying in the gym, that's the better outcome, you know? So... You do live like that. I do, yeah. You do live like that. And I haven't said it yet, but, you know, this album, it's so...

fascinating for me to see it from the moment that we're talking about now to then its creation because

I remember when it was you trying to figure out your voice and figure out who you are as an artist, as a person, as a human. And now when I listen to it, it almost sounds so effortless and true and authentic in this really flowing way, kind of like this channeling experience of even listening to it. And I couldn't believe it when I listened to it because I was like, wow, like you did it. Like that's how I felt. Like I was like, you did it. And then some, like it was even...

it far superseded any of the expectations I would have had in the conversations we had of how you were thinking about it. Well, yeah. And it's like, you know, you have the idea of, if I said to you, you know, six months ago, I want to make the most honest album I've ever made, then you start having ideas of what that sounds like and what that looks like. And then at some point actually in the studio, you know,

at some point when you're done with all the ideas of what you are trying to force it to become, there's a breaking point and you surrender to it and the album starts to become what it's meant to be. And you just have to like roll with that, you know? Yeah. And that's,

That's hard though. It's super hard. How do you trust that? How do you trust that? Because I feel like we're living at this time where I feel like everything's perfectly engineered and manufactured and even authenticity is programmed and developed. And then you're trying to say, well, no, I actually want to create something like that. But then how do I not engineer it? Something that I learned on this process was just like,

the foundation, like the first brick you lay, if that brick is a brick of like authentic truth, if you work really hard to get to that place and that first brick you lay is truth, each brick after that will be much easier, you know? And like, I remember it felt like as long as every word I say comes out of my, like the writers I was working with, everyone became so attuned to

me saying something and if I was like you know saying it and then I was kind of quenching after if I was saying it and then it just didn't sound right coming in my mouth we would just be like all right that's not it like we need you it needs to have that like you said that natural flow and that first brick just like set a foundation for truth to just be it and now we're at the point where anything

that really isn't in that space is so obvious that we can't even put it next to it, you know? And so it's just really, if you start there, it's so much easier to build, so much harder to start in a kind of place of, I want to be perceived this way. And then halfway through that be like, I want this to feel like truth. And because it itself gets confused, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I was saying this to Helena the other day, yesterday when we were driving from Boston last night,

And I was just saying that I'm at a point in my life where I just want to experience. Yeah. Like I, I, I don't want to think about, it's not that I don't, I want to be, it's not that I want to be irresponsible and not think about consequences or repercussions.

But there are certain experiences that I want to open myself up to regardless of how they're perceived or how I may have perceived them in the past. Yeah. Because that's the only way I'm going to actually get to live. Exactly. If I'm constantly curating and perfectly managing every part of my appearance, perception, reputation, whatever else. Environment. Environment. I don't actually get to live or breathe or experience. Yeah.

when I hear you talk, I feel like that's something I definitely learned from you because there's been this part of you that's just been so open to being all of yourself and not having to pick. Yeah. There was a one lyric where you say in why, why, why you say I stepped off the stage with nothing left. All the lies are with my head. Yeah. Um, effing with my head. Um,

What were the lies? Oh, lights is the lyric. Oh, sorry, my bad. You're going to get the fans there. Oh, my bad. There we go. I messed up. There you go. There we go. There we go. There we go. I messed up. No, it's the lights, yeah. I thought it was lies. I heard lies. I mean, no lies. I mean, maybe lies internally, but yeah, I think the lights and metaphorically, I think it was just more so, it had so much to do with perception, just this constant, you

just this constant focus on what I look like and what I feel like to the world. I didn't even know at that point what I felt like and what I looked like to myself. There was a real stripping down process that had to happen and took me a long time. But up until I would say the creation of this album, I don't remember the last time I felt so just myself.

Probably the last time was when I was like nine or 10. Wow. Honestly. Yeah. What was it about nine or 10 that felt so true? Not having the need to like cover the late cover, the layers of, of what I was feeling, you know, I was just like an expressing ball, you know, like similarly to how I am. I probably, I probably like more emotional today, similarly to how I was when I was nine, you know? And, and,

Yeah, I guess just that not having the words and the stories that you've been told, you know, as you start to grow up, spinning in my head and just expressing truth of who I am. I'm lucky too, man. Like, I know that a lot of people, they're not surrounded by people who are maybe super accepting or embracing of that truth. And I know that's hard. And I think...

I have a lot of compassion for that. And the reality is that I wasn't around a lot of people who were. And I think part of starting to just like strip back those layers is also to just maneuver the people you're around in your life and starting to be around people who you can be like that with. And it just becomes kind of a feedback loop of positive things.

honest reinforcement and then you know you look around one day and you're like oh all these people in this room like really love sean you know walk me through that discomfort because i think it's easy to jump from like a canceled tour to i'm in the studio making new music and we both know it wasn't like that yeah no not at all walk me through so one thing in the discomfort you're saying is surrounding yourself with people that allow you to be yourself yeah allow you to be

and figure it out what else were like really important kind of principles that guided you through that no man's land through that desert of time what was it for you that

kind of showed you that North Star when things were dark? So many things. Like, you know, I think the process of like healing and moving through a dense moment in your life is not just sticking to one thing. It's really using everything at your fingertips. And whether that was therapy or whether that was like friendship or it was reading or it was music or what it was, you know, it was just a mixture of all of it. And I think

The hardest thing for me in my life has been this kind of wanting to always have the perception of strength and all together and kind of grounded and still, you know? And when I started to allow myself to really

I think it's like you got to really feel pain to like let your ego get out of the way. When I started to really allow myself to like lean on my family and my friends and also like just reach out to people and be like, you know, that was just such a huge part of it, you know. I didn't know at the time but just using the people around me to support me was a huge, huge part of it and yeah.

Yeah, and being open to not knowing how to get through it and just letting people maybe help me how they can, you know, and they might have their own way. And yeah, the people, there's a song on the album called Heavy and it's just so much of it is just about letting go.

People who love you help you. You know, it's a hard people talk a lot about it's hard to give love. It's hard to be in that state. But man, like receiving love, like when love is in front of you and it's trying to give itself to you through someone, that's a hard thing to receive. It's really hard. You know, a lot of people, including myself, just like want to freeze up. And so my new thing is kind of like instead of walking into a room when I'm feeling depressed,

Sometimes life can seem challenging and overcoming problems can seem impossible. But when you focus on your problems, it can keep you from seeing the good in your life. One thing that helps me when I need a change in perspective is acknowledging the small wins in life.

I encourage my team to pay attention to small wins because it helps them see positive outcomes and the steps that they're achieving on the road to a bigger goal. Use the power of small wins to shift your outlook and you will start to see positive changes. State Farm is also there to help you find personal wins and celebrate the small things in life.

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Our 20s are seen as this golden decade, our time to be carefree, fall in love, make mistakes and decide what we want from our life. But what can psychology really teach us about this decade? I'm Gemma Spegg, the host of The Psychology of Your 20s. Each week, we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak,

money, friendships, and much more to explore the science and the psychology behind our experiences. Incredible guests, fascinating topics, important science, and a bit of my own personal experience. Audrey, I honestly have no idea what's going on with my life.

Join me as we explore what our 20s are really all about, from the good, the bad and the ugly, and listen along as we uncover how everything is psychology, including our 20s. The Psychology of Your 20s, hosted by me, Gemma Spegg, now streaming on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there on this. I'm going to go there on this because this is so fun.

People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh, great, you see me.

We'll laugh together, we'll cry together and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Dabluqia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, that's so powerful. That's so powerful. I love that. And I feel like I remember in the beginning when we'd hang out, if you weren't feeling good, there'd be a part of you be like, I don't think I want to hang. Yeah, exactly. And then that switch of what you're saying where it's like, oh, no, no matter how I feel. Yeah. I need to lean in. And I love that. And that's freeing. Yeah.

If I can only hang out with you when I'm feeling still and at peace and coming from a very high perspective, I am like, I got 3% of the time, you know, like, and I think even for doing something like this podcast, I mean, when we first met each other, I used to be like, oh, I got to get to this degree of peace.

of calm and understanding of life. And the reality is I don't have a deeper understanding of life. I just have a deeper acceptance of self. And that allows me to sit here and be like, hey, here it is. This is what we got. And that has changed everything to me. It frees you from...

so much you know you can kind of just be like hey this is that's actually a huge part of it i used to before i would get out of a car and go into a social situation or before i would i just would say like i'm as i'm moving as fast as i can i cannot be healing any quicker than this i'm this is it i'm here so let's just let's be this you know yeah and he trips us up i feel like we just

Yeah, we're trying to be something we're not or trying to be something we're not feeling. Yeah. We're trying to feel something we don't genuinely feel in the moment, whether it's us trying to be more confident, trying to be more calm, trying to be more whatever else it may be, fill in the blank. Yeah. And it lets us down and...

one letting yourself down to you know, there's a part of you that you're just like telling yourself you're telling that part of yourself like You're not good enough to be around these people or to be in front of this camera, you know What was the hardest question you had to ask yourself during this whole period? Like what was the question that you asked yourself the most often that you sought the answer for was just like general

direction. I remember so many times I was just like driving my car aimlessly and I would just be like literally I think the verbatim words I said out of my mouth were like you're exactly where you're supposed to be like you're exactly where you're meant to be like this is I know it might not look like what you thought it was supposed to look like it might not feel like what you thought but like something about this is uh is it and

There was just a lot of beautiful things that happened in that time. Like I moved to LA and I didn't really have a lot of people around at that time. And I remember I went to this coffee shop every morning and I got a coffee. And as I was like sitting there telling myself this, you know, I saw this one guy. His name is Josh. He's a great human. And he's reading this book called

I think it's called When Things Fall Apart. He basically read, he was reading that book for two years, sitting on the coffee shop. And I went up to him and said, what's this book? You know, he introduced me to another friend and another friend. And by the time, after I knew it, it's like every day there's three or four of us would sit around having coffee. And it was like just little group therapy sessions. And it just became the most, the best thing in the world to me. It was like 9 a.m. We're going to go talk it out. And yeah,

It was exactly where I was supposed to be at that time. And it was so weird and awkward and uncomfortable, but man, it really, yeah, really, that little thing changed my life. It was funny because people would always tell me, I just saw Sean hanging around a coffee shop. I'd sit there for hours. They started calling me the mayor of the coffee shop. And it started to become like this thing where everyone would like watch it and be like, what's going on here? Yeah.

And I feel like you really took shelter in like building your men's circle and your men's group and having that ability to have, you know, a group of men around you that you could be honest with and open with. What was unique about that? Like, why was that such an interesting thing to build? Because I know you'd always talk to me about that as well, this group that you were nourishing and cultivating. Yeah, and like I had a couple, I had, you know, I had this kind of coffee men's group and I had this other beautiful men's group simultaneously happening. And I think...

you know, just having like men from all ages, from all parts of the world who do all different things, like really just show up and strip it all back and just be brave in front of you. I remember like when someone, something, someone, something, I don't know, told me like when someone is sharing something hard with you, like,

Nine times out of ten, you don't have to say anything back because the most healing part about that experience is just to be witnessed in your pain. And I think it's just that. It's like to be witnessed in your pain and for the person in front of you not to be like, I don't want this. It's just for them to, you know, once you open your eyes and the pain is over and you look up and they're still there like, hey, man, still here, you know. That's beyond, you know. So, yeah.

In simple ways, like that's been a huge part of it. Yeah, and I like that you were playing that role while you were receiving that. Yeah. I think there's something really interesting about that. Well, it's empowering. You're simultaneously being vulnerable and then also listening to other people go through their stories and you're empowered to be strong and hold for them. And it's just a beautiful process, you know. Yeah.

Because I think a lot of us feel like when I get there, I'll be strong enough. Then I'll be strong enough to hold space for others. And it's almost like this simultaneous mutual holding is what we all need. And you're actually only going to be better at holding others if you allow yourself to be held. And if you practice holding others, even when you have nothing to hold them with. Exactly. And that balance is what creates that structure, that foundation that you're resting on. Yeah, the roots. Yeah. You were talking about this, you're talking about heavy lifting.

And in the song you say, it's been so heavy, it's been so long, running from everything and nothing at all. I was thinking about that a lot. I was like, so often we think things are so heavy and there's so much going on. And then at the same time, you're like, but it's not there. Walk me through that dilemma. This is the constant dilemma. It's like in reality, there is a lot going on. And then also in reality,

it's okay oftentimes too, you know? It's that internal perspective that you're going through. And I felt like, yeah, just running when you have the money and the ability to be on the constant move and run. I just ran and I was just never still. It was like...

I couldn't figure out how to get away from the feeling that was feeling so bad. And at some point I was just like, okay, you know, a friend of mine was like, "Hey man, wherever you go, there you are." And at that point I was just like, "Okay, I gotta let it kind of hit me." You know, and yeah, that was just a big part of it is just, like I said, the realization that like when you kind of move all of the stuff out of the way, it just kind of, it just drops into the truth.

it's really hard to get to that place when all of the noise gets out of the way it's very hard to get to that state but sometimes when you do it allows you to look around and be like okay actually it's okay you know were you running away from fame was it was it the what was it what did you feel you were running away from did you was there a point where you're like i don't want to be famous like i don't want to have the platform absolutely and i think just like

more of like what I felt like the fame was doing to my mind and I was I was letting it do to my mind and it all was based around perception and just all I wanted to feel was comfortable in my own body, you know and like not crawling in my skin from like every word that would come out of my mouth to the way I would sit in a chair and

everything, you know, and I think it just takes time because the reality is that if you spend your life around cameras and around social media and around people who are constantly talking about the way you look, the way you sound, the way you act in a way that has more to do with a performance and perception, then that is what you're going to be focused on. And you really, if you're stuck in that spinning, you need to put yourself around people who are like

doing the opposite of that who are like not worried about how you're acting not worried about what you're saying not worried about how you're sitting and just existing, you know, and I had to just Reconnect with that and that's that's why I named the album Sean - like and you know I just felt like yeah, just that that process of stripping just took so long and a lot of it is just like I think a lot of it is is

this idea of who I wanted to be in this world you know this like this image of perfection and I just like even right now I'm just like oh man like thank god for everything because I'm sitting here and I really am not having tons of intrusive thoughts about like is how are you saying the right thing are you doing the right thing it just it is is you know and

I'm just grateful for that. It's a nice feeling. I just got to like check on that for a sec. I'm glad you're feeling that way. That's what I say when I was doing the intro. I mean, I felt that way because we always talk about these things anyway. It's even strange having all this stuff. And it was funny because I was noticing something that was happening in our conversation. I'd be halfway through a thought and you'd lead on it. You wouldn't even let me ask the question. No, and I was like, but that's what we would do. Like we would never have perfect conversations.

pauses and I was liking that like I was appreciating that I was noticing it going oh this is really nice like I'm not even finishing my thought and Sean already knows what I'm about to say and I was like that I'm glad that we're doing that and that you know when we started this like my you know it was like I was like yeah I don't want this this doesn't need to be a performance because there is because it's real that doesn't need to be that and so I'm keep doing it and I'm happy that you're feeling there's no intrusive thoughts I mean

you know, I think that constant filtering that we always live in is exhausting. It's exhausting, man. And I remember like, you told me about some of the pressures back then that came from different sources of like, oh, if you want to be the biggest artist, then you have to do this. And if you don't do this now, then you won't be as big as so-and-so or whatever. Like, you know, and it's like, and I was thinking about that. And, you know, when I met you, you were whatever, like 22 years old or something. And it's like,

You're like, gosh, like hearing that as a 22 year old. And then you hear about like, you know, TikTokers who are taking off and they're hearing about it at 18 years old or 16 years old. And you probably heard it when you started at 15. Like that can really push someone into only caring about those things. Yeah, of course. What did that stripping away look like where like,

We always talk about this, like, you look great, you're dressing well, like, you know, the hair looks good. Like, how have you got to a point where, like, you can care, but then still be detached? Well, I think that's part of it. Actually, honestly, I can, my tendency is to be very extreme. And a lot of what I work on in therapy is just finding this middle ground, is to not be in these black and white binaries, you know. And I oftentimes, like, I went from, like,

you know, wanting to look like the image of perfection to like, I'm just going to go be a man in the woods. And like, I don't care what I look like. I don't care what you think. And there's a good period, I'm sure of paparazzi photos where I, people could tell, you know, and we'll, we'll find them. Yeah. And I think like, it took me a long time to also come back around to just like caring about how you look and caring about, uh, that type of stuff. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, it's actually a, a

beautiful thing it's just when you start to be completely consumed by it and so I started to find a middle ground again where I was like okay you know what you can care just like don't kill yourself caring you know and yeah it just yeah the extremes they don't work for me anymore I don't think they work for any of us no no no they don't man they don't the second you can start allowing room for complete like

paradox to exist in your life and like two things to exist like the number one thing i say in therapy is yeah i know i'm feeling this and i'm also feeling this at the same time and that's okay and that's just like it's just creating more space all the time you know you have this song heart of gold this was this was something that stood out to me

You say, I'm sorry that I wasn't there to hug your mama at the funeral. I didn't cry. I didn't even feel the pain. Then it hit me all at once when we talked about it yesterday. Walk me through who that was and what happened there. When I was young, when I was like 12, 13, I had a friend. His name was Diomi.

My friend Brian, you know Brian. Him and I and Diomi were just great friends and we spent a lot of time together. And he was an awesome dude. He was a lot like me. He was like a very sensitive dude and just like I really, really connected with him. And when I was 15, obviously I got signed and started making music and went off and started touring. And then him and Diomi and I just kind of started to disconnect. Yeah.

I don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was about, you know, I was like probably like 15, 16, 17. And Brian, you know, would call me and say like, hey, he would say, you know, Diomi's gotten into drugs and stuff. And just thinking about his mom, his mom's name is Gail. And, you know, hoping that she sees the beauty in the story of talking about him and hope it's okay. But yeah.

you know when i was like 18 around 18 brian called me one day and he said hey man deal me um he passed away in his sleep last night and uh yeah he overdosed he and i remember when i heard it brian was on the phone crying and i was just kind of like somewhere on tour and i just like felt numb like i didn't really feel anything you know and just like hung up and i just kind of went on with everything and time just went on and sitting in the studio

about you know three months ago and i keep hearing this kind of title it's heart of gold and i'm asking myself like what is this song about what's this song about and uh scott who i make a lot of music with he looks over at me and he goes didn't you have a friend uh who passed away from an overdose and second he said that brian was in the room brian goes talking about diomi and uh

Yeah, the second he said Diomi's name, it just hit me. Years of not processing it just all hit me. We sat there and sobbed. The song, man, it was a hard song to write. It just felt like a letter. It felt like a letter to my friend that I never got to, the things I never got to say to him. I imagine that when you die of an overdose, especially as someone as sweet and kind and loving as him, like,

you kind of wake up wherever you wake up and then potentially is this moment of like what happened, you know, not that he needs it, but it just felt like a good opportunity to just be like, Hey man, we love you. And you had a heart of gold and, and we're down here thinking about you. And yeah, it's one of my favorite songs to play, man. It just is, uh,

It's just this beautiful golden light. And he is just like this super swaggy dude. And it just like, it holds his energy. And it's just like every time we play it, I just imagine this huge golden light beaming up from the place we're in, wherever he is, just reaching him. And yeah, I love that song. You want to play a little? I can play it for you on the song, on the phone after. Yeah.

But yeah, man. I love that song as well. I was intrigued because that wasn't something I was aware of. Yeah. It's funny, man, like how these things are when you're open to the truth and what wants to come out of you and what wants to be made. Yeah, it...

it's unexpected and it was extremely healing it's still very healing to just like sing that song out to him every every time i play it now have you played it for his family i haven't actually i have to go back to pickering and play for his mom yeah yeah how do you think she'll react yeah i don't know i i think she'll love it she's an amazing human being i always had an amazing uh connection with her and

So I could see her just like, she's just a badass, just totally rocking to it and loving it. And yeah, special family, special human. Yeah. It's nice to immortalize it in a song and immortalize him. Yeah, it is. It is really, really nice. Never wrote about death in that way before. So yeah. Was it a process of...

forgiving yourself for not having fun yeah yeah yeah that was a lot of it a lot of it was the guilt for not reaching out or the guilt for not being there for him or even more so just the guilt for not being at his funeral and and seeing his mom and all this stuff and but music has this funny way of healing in a way that other things can't you know so

Yeah. Can't wait to play versus mom, honestly. I can't wait. I can't wait for you to tell me. I can imagine it just being like this really special moment. And I think, you know, it's, it's so human that like, you know, there's, there's so many things we, we go through that we're not ready to process something yet. And then we feel guilty that we weren't ready when,

we almost feel we needed to be. But then you realize that actually when you were ready to process it, something more beautiful came from it for everyone. I think I spoke to you about him, but one of my monk friends passed away from cancer. My closest friend during my time in the monastery passed away a couple of years back. He was maybe a year older than me, had colon cancer. And I couldn't go back to see him because it was the pandemic when it happened. And

I couldn't fly back. I couldn't be by his side. I couldn't be there with him. And in the last few weeks to months of his experience of it, he wasn't even in a place to do like phone calls or, you know. And I spoke to him three days before he passed away on the phone. And he was like crouched over because he was in so much pain physically. And so I couldn't even...

look at him and yeah I always carried that as like I wasn't there by his side I should have been I could have been and it's it's been something that when I was listening to and I heard that that's what I was thinking about yeah it's strange because you kind of bury it until you're ready to look at it yeah and sometimes you don't even know if you're ready to look at it yet like what part of it and it's I'm I agree with you I think music's the only thing that can get in there get into that complexity of it yeah it's the grieving is just a complex

thing probably lasts a lifetime you know it's beautiful that it came to you in that moment and that you were able to yeah yeah i'm glad you related to it man yeah no i i mean i relate to in so many ways i mean even even grieving like i think grief also we talk about obviously this is talking about the loss of a of a friend and mine too but i think grieving is also like

I was at my sister's wedding last year and my sister's one of my favorite people on the planet, my best friend. She knows everything about me. She's four and a half years younger than me. We have similar sister vibes. Yeah. Same with mine. Yeah. She's just like, I love her to bits and she's like, she's like my little brother actually. That's how, unfortunately she's been treated by me. But, you know, I was at a wedding last year and I left the UK, I left London eight years ago now and I,

we've kept in touch and we've kept our relationship like we're as tight as ever so it hasn't been affected but it was really funny because I was at her wedding and I was just like sobbing the whole time and I have to show you can I show it to you I wasn't even planning on doing this but now that I remember I think I just showed it to my team the other day because my sister was just with me and she I don't even want I don't I don't even have it on hand photos of me crying at my sister's wedding I have to show you

It was just, wait, sorry, I wasn't prepared for this. That's why it's genuinely in the moment. I'm trying to make sure that I have it. Oh, man, it's so good. And then zoom out to see Radhi's reaction. Oh, man, it's really good. I've never seen your face like that.

Oh man, that is so good. That is an unreal photo. There's so much happening on your face. There's a whole story on your face. Did you zoom out? Yeah, I saw Radzi. Radzi's like taking a picture. Smiling, gorgeous, so happy. Radzi's like taking a picture. And then I made her cry and that was her. Oh yeah, good. But what I'm getting to is this idea of like, I was at my sister's wedding thinking it was going to be completely normal. Yeah.

And it wasn't because I started to realize that when I left London, I had to switch off. Even though I was connected with her and I loved her and we talked all the time, there was a part of my emotional connection to my family that I had to turn off because if I thought about it every day in New York and then LA. Yeah, you couldn't do it. I couldn't do it because-

I didn't have any family and friends in New York and LA. And I didn't know how my life was going to go. And I didn't know what I was going to do. And I was like, if I stay too connected emotionally, I'm going to have to run back. And then I remember I went back to my house, my parents' home where me and my sister grew up. And it was the first time she wasn't there. And I, last Christmas, like I felt like I was alone, fully alone. And it was so strange because I was like,

What is going on? And it was all these feelings I denied or put away or hidden from myself because it was too uncomfortable to go there. And they all just came up with my sister leaving and getting married and all the rest of it. And so I think grieving also is also the loss of a former life, the loss of a former self, the loss of, there's so much to it that I think you bring up in that song that at least it got me thinking about. Yeah. Yeah. Grief is a really, really complex, interesting thing.

But yeah, that's beautiful, man. I love that photo so much. I'll send it to you. Please do. I'll send it to you afterwards. That's so good. I wanted to talk to you a bit about, you know, and I hope you don't mind we're doing an album tour because I think it's the, to me, I always get happy when I can, you know, your music's so healing for me and, yeah,

I know it's going to be so healing for people. Actually, actually talk to me about that because you had 15 fans in here last night and that was the first time you played this album to them. I wasn't here for that. So I want to hear about what was that like? It was really special. It was just like, so it was my first time really telling the story of all the songs, you know? And, uh,

It was just a sobbing fest. Everyone was sobbing and everyone was crying. And it's just another reminder that like greatness is not one person. It really is just so many things happening and aligning to make something special. You know, it's like.

At the end of the night, like when I look around, I'm like, oh, the candles are lit. And like all the people in the room, the fans in there, like the friends who've come, like our friends who are amazing chefs who've come and made this amazing meal for them. And like there's flowers around. Like, you know, I didn't do any of this. And my band, like there are all these humans who are so amazing who come together to make something special happen.

And when you like make room for that and give space for that collective effort to be felt, it was just like... And on top of that, just like the album itself, we put so much effort into just the stories and the truth of it that I felt like my job was so easy. All I had to do was...

represent the song all I had to do was speak the truth of what we wrote about and and perform it that way and and move on like There was the greatest show ever was already wrote before we started and I just had to step into it you know and and I think that's such a I think that's such a representation also just of like for me like as a performer like I have had a really hard time you know when a I

I'm carrying the weight of everything on my shoulders. When I'm the one, when I'm telling myself this being fantastic all comes down to me. If I'm not fantastic, it all doesn't matter, which is not true at all. And the more I take that weight off of me, the more fantastic it becomes. And B, when the art I've chosen to create comes from such a truthful place, the show you play matters.

is so much easier it just like it supports you it feels like you just have the lift of of the truth you know and and you can't rush that stuff at the end of the day you cannot rush art and music and you have to really allow it and the fans last night they were like hey you know at the end of the show they were like hey like if this is the type of music you come back with

take as much time as you need. And so it was so sweet. That's beautiful. Yeah, it was so special for me. Sometimes life can seem challenging and overcoming problems can seem impossible. But when you focus on your problems, it can keep you from seeing the good in your life. One thing that helps me when I need a change in perspective is acknowledging the small wins in life.

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Welcome to the Overcomfort Podcast with Jennica Lopez. Yup, that's me. You may know my late mom, Jenny Rivera, my queen. She's been my guiding light as I bring you a new season of Overcomfort Podcast. This season, I'll continue to discover and encourage you and me to get out of our comfort zones and choose our calling. Overcomfort Podcast.

Join me as I dive into conversations that will inspire you, challenge you, and bring you healing. We're on this journey together. I'm opening up about my life and telling my story in my own words. Yes, you'll hear it from me first before the Cheeseman lands on your social media feed. If you thought you knew everything, guess again.

So I took another test with Ancestry and it told me a lot about who I am. And it led me to my biological father. And everyone here, my friends laugh, but I'm Puerto Rican. Listen to the Overcomfort Podcast with Jennica Lopez as part of My Cultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast and founder of the Center for Human Potential. If you like On Purpose with Jay Shetty, I think you'll enjoy the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential. In each episode, I talk with inspiring scientists, thinkers, and other self-actualized individuals who give you a greater understanding of yourself,

others, and the world we live in. Our aim is to help you live a fuller, more meaningful life. Listen to the Psychology Podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, I feel like when I'm listening to this album, it feels like I'm listening to a friend talk to me about what they've been going through. Yeah. They were catching up on a call. Good. And I'm listening to a friend just hearing about

What's going on in their life and how they're thinking about it. Good. That's perfect then. And I feel like that's, it's so beautiful and it's obviously so hard to do because you're doing it at, you know, everyone's feeling that way. And so that's not easy. Yeah. And continuing our tour of the album, you talk about, you know, love and relationships, which is a romantic relationship, which is such a big part of your own journey. And we've talked about this. So much, yeah. It's such a...

it's such a sensitive part of our hearts. Like such a like, it's almost like society's also made it more sensitive, like on such a pedestal as I often talk about recently. I was just saying this to someone the other day who's going through something and I was saying that they've always overvalued and overweighted romantic love. Instead of just general love. Instead of the general love. And, you know, in your song,

in between you say if I'm not all in then I'm all out and it's never gonna happen if it doesn't happen right now if it doesn't end with a ring is it just sex if it isn't black and white then it's on to the next I mean can't think of how many people can relate to that experience yeah and how many people when they hear that are gonna think that's my life that's me yeah walk me through

what you're experiencing, what you're going through when you're writing that. Yeah, for me, I'm definitely one of those people who has over put way too much weight on the romantic part of love. Doing that has done many things. It's suffocated love. It has closed the door to any other kind of love that I could be receiving. I guess there comes a point where there came a point over the last couple years, I was just like, I realized life is hard. Like,

This thing is too long and too hard to like not just be open to the love that's in front of you asking to be received right now, you know. And that was kind of what I was writing about there is isn't it enough just to have someone share a moment with you of love and love?

It's hard at first because it's like it's really vulnerable to like allow that because all the things come in is like, is this romantic? Is this this? And is this going to be forever? Is this what does this mean? You know, is this weird? Because you're you're with someone and we're having a beautiful connection. What does that mean? Is this bad? Is this wrong? And all of that can exist at the same time. And it's OK. And.

when you start making more space for all that complexity to exist, like you start to realize, wow, there's a lot of opportunity for me to feel love every day. And I have noticed that my fixation on romantic love has dwindled and I've just been so much more, you know,

I guess generally feeling that empty space of love fill up. And that's just because I think I'm more willing to receive it from more places, you know? And it's tough too, because we have been watching Disney since we were kids. And so we're like, where is my forever? You know? And even in the song, like, you know, I have another song in there where I'm like, you're the one and I live for this moment. It's like, I, that, that like,

tickles a part of us and we like love to hear that and you know to the end of life I'll be a hopeless romantic like that but like yeah but part of me also has to just know that yeah love can just it can really be there you can experience it and if you just wait your whole life for one person to give it to you you might be let down and also

you might just that person might just be so might be so impossible for them to feel that for you you know so yeah i'm open to love yeah that's what i'm saying yeah what's it been like for you having your romantic life be so public and then when you when you break up it's public and then if there's a potential reconnection it's public and then i feel like that is kind of

I mean for anyone I've ever interviewed, for anyone I've ever known that seems to be one of the hardest things because it's brutal for both people, fans, audiences, people in people's private life like walk me through what that's been like and maybe where certain songs felt connected to that experience. Brutal. It's I mean honestly

I think Camila and I have just done the best job at preserving our private lives.

little fire of love for each other because no matter how strong mentally you are when there are millions of people commenting on it it's so hard not to be affected by it and to be swayed by it and to be inspired by it and to desire it because people desire it or to hate it because people hate it and it's just human and I feel like her and I have just worked extremely hard to just protect each other and protect

that love, you know, and I learned a lot about that. And it's part of it. It's definitely part of it. And there's no getting away from that. But if I'm being completely honest, I don't really, I don't really go on social media anymore. So I, I don't really see or care what people say about my love life or my relationships, because it's just,

It's honestly too detrimental to the actual relationship itself that I've become pretty strict on that part of it, you know. But it is. It's crazy, man. We're not in a movie. This is not a movie. Celebrities are, you know, sometimes maybe they think they are and sometimes they literally are. But like it is in a movie. This is real life. This is real love. And love is confusing and hard and goes through dips and ups.

goes through pauses, goes through breaks, goes through so much. And so, yeah, I really feel for everyone who goes through that. I just feel like as a celebrity, I just wanna just come at it and be really truthful from the place of this is what love is like for me. What have you both done? And maybe obviously speaking for yourself, but what have you done to protect yourself

the relationship in apart from distancing yourself from the noise yeah what else has been useful in protecting whatever a relationship may be in any phase for me and for us I think immense honesty just like

Over communication, you know, like I felt this way when I was doing this interview and I said this thing and I felt weird and I'm sorry if it came off like that. And, you know, I love you and that's my, you know, it just immediately cuts through any type of assumption that I could make or she could make from anything. And yeah.

And we're both amazing at that. I'll be the first to text her. She'll be the first to text me. And we just, as long as we're good, all the noise is just noise. And that's been a huge part of it. Yeah, so rather than be like, oh, I hope they don't see that. Or I hope they don't see that. It's like, oh, I'm just going to tell them why I was feeling that way. Yeah, yeah. And then how do you open yourself up to receive that honesty when it isn't comfortable, let's say? I think it's also just a part of just understanding yourself.

the situation we're in as not only as celebrities but artists you know being two people that make music and tell the story of the heart and that's just a big part of it and we both are very aware of that you know so just having respect for the fact that

We're storytellers, you know. Wow. And that takes a lot though. Yeah. That takes a lot of maturity. Yeah, for sure. That's like a really mature perspective to have. Yeah. And I mean, we've been doing it since we're very young. So I think at this point, we're just like, we hopefully just have a great, deep, great respect. So I don't think either of us would ever cross a line. You know, we deeply respect each other. That takes a lot, man. It's so hard to like...

You know, as I've always said to you, you're an old soul because I'm like, I know people like twice your age, maybe even more than that who struggle with that. It's so hard to actually have that perspective and understanding and respect for someone's personal, professional, you know,

orbit it is it is yeah and it's hard when it's two people too it's easy for one person to do i'm just lucky she's an amazing human being and she's incredibly understanding and thoughtful and caring so communicating with her is not difficult and i think that's just probably a huge part of it yeah why does it feel sometimes that you can have two people who respect each other so much

connect so much, have so much admiration and love for each other, but that it's not right romantically? Like, why is that? Because you have this beautiful lyric that nobody knows that says, when you're so in love and your soul's touch, but it's still not in love, where does it go? Like, I feel like that's something a lot of people have been- Struggle with. Yeah. That's a great question. It is a great question. I don't have the probably greatest answer for. I think that's exactly why I asked, where does it go? Where does that love-

go when it's so present? And I think the best answer I can come up with is just that love is a lot, but partnership is more than love. And I think it has a lot to do with

how you support each other in your day-to-day life and really being honest about who you are and making sure that someone that you're with is in support of that and doesn't have to bend themselves entirely to be in support of that and vice versa you know and i think it's tough because you can go your whole life and never feel that feeling of deep love again and uh

I think it's just really complex. It's been something I think people have been trying to figure out for a long time. And I just think potentially, I mean, we've talked about love a lot. I think potentially we're still all wrapping our heads around love and we're still working through such westernized movie, romanticized, dramatized versions of it. And if you go to places that have been less exposed to that type of thinking, then maybe love is a little simpler or a little more, I don't know.

And so for me, like, I just like, hopefully there's a little bit of both. Hopefully you can have that spark and that magic and that love. And you can also have that compatibility where your two lives are working in flow with each other, you know, and obviously you're going to have to bend here and there, but yeah.

I think to a degree, you know. Yeah, I don't ask you or anyone because I think someone has the perfect answer. I know I don't. I ask because I think when people are navigating something, that's when they have the most confidence

reflective yeah variegated view of it because when you're actually going through it yeah you actually can at least people can hear themselves in you yeah in your voice and that's what the song does it's like people listening to it going gosh yeah i'm am i with the right person at the wrong time or is it the wrong person at the right time or is it and it's a constant question it's like a constant question to be like i mean that's also part of it is like not

It's okay to be unsure, even if you're unsure for the rest of your life, like that might be part of it. And that's that. I mean, the art of what you're talking about in the album, what you talk about, what we've talked about, what you're speaking about is just this, like, how do we get comfortable with discomfort? How do we get okay with uncertainty? Whether that's, but that's like, that is the hardest thing. And like you said, it's not something that you ever get to.

it's something you're constantly practicing, like constantly working on. And I feel like romantic love is the one that like exposes everything because there's love, there's envy, there's comparison, there's competition. Like there's so many emotions that it kind of triggers out in you. What have, what have you done to manage your discomfort and uncertainty when it comes to. To love or just generally. I'd say both. Yeah. Both. Yeah. Both. I mean, I think it's,

A lot of therapy, honestly. And I think for me, it's just, I think everyone's different. For me, it's really helpful to just speak as practical as I can about each situation. This is what's happening and this is what's not happening. And this is what's going on and I'm feeling confused and all of this is just happening and that's okay.

I think to be honest, it's like, I'm currently not in a relationship. So I'm sure I can't wait to be back in the love spins, all the emotions getting triggered and all of this stuff. 'Cause being in a relationship is really hard. I think sometimes it's easier from the place of being single to be like in a place of like, hey, like find the balance. But like once you're in a relationship, it's much harder. Well, once you have something to lose, it's much harder to not have a tight grip on it.

And so we'll see when I'm back in that state. - No, I love what you're saying because I've always said, and maybe I've never even said this out loud, but I always reflect on like, if forever, for whatever reason, and not that this is indicative of anything that's happening, but if for whatever reason me and Radhi were to ever go our separate ways,

It's interesting. I think a lot of people would say, oh, but you told us you loved each other. Yeah. And you told us you had the perfect relationship, which I have not. And I don't have a perfect relationship. I've never claimed to have one. But the viewpoint becomes, but you guys, like, you know, Jay, you wrote a book on love. How could you break up with someone? And I'm like...

No, no, no. Like that's life. Like that's reality. Like, and I think we have this view again, clarifying, there's nothing going on. I'm just saying it for an example, because I think it's so important to address these things

Because I think we have these very fixed viewpoints of what something should be and what something should look like. And I think it goes back to just like, I don't know, like maybe this sounds too idealistic or like optimistic, but like I think it goes back to just finding what you actually, figuring out what it is you actually want in life. Like for me, it's like, do I want...

to be in a constant state of like, I have someone, I have this, like this fiery thing that always is mine. And it, you know, it's like more of that, like ownership that like desire, which is, which is super enticing and gorgeous in its, in itself, or like, what is it that I actually want? Or do I want to feel just a general, more, more love from more places? And do I want to

feel supported and like I'm growing and like I'm being seen. And if you really ask yourself that question and then you find an answer, you might not, but if you find an answer, then you can start moving forward with what your answer was. And for me, it was really more of just like

I really do want to just like have a greater, I don't want all my eggs to be in one basket, you know, because I don't know how life can go. Like things happen, people die, people get sick, people, you know, fall out. Like I, and I don't want to be, I would love nothing more than to meet my wife as I walk out of the store today. But like at the same time too, like, yeah, I just want to, until that moment,

I'd love to be experiencing love also, you know. Yeah. I don't want to just wait till then, you know. So there's some fans outside waiting now, ready to go. Sometimes life can seem challenging and overcoming problems can seem impossible. But when you focus on your problems, it can keep you from seeing the good in your life. One thing that helps me when I need a change in perspective is acknowledging the small wins in life.

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Imagine you ask two people the same exact set of seven questions. I'm Minnie Driver, and this was the idea I set out to explore in my podcast, Minnie Questions. This year, we bring a whole new group of guests to answer the same seven questions, including actress and star of the mega hit sitcom Friends, Courtney Cox. You can't go around it, so you just go through it. This is a roadblock. It's going to catch you down the road. Go through it. Deal with it.

comedian, writer, and star of the series Catastrophe, Rob Delaney. I shouldn't feel guilty about my son's death. He died of a brain tumor. It's part of what happens when your kid dies. Intellectually, you'll understand that it's not your fault, but you'll still feel guilty. Alt-Rock icon...

Liz Phair. That personal disaster wrote Guyville. So everything comes out of a dead end. And many, many more. Join me on season three of Many Questions on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers.

What's up, y'all? This is Questlove, and you know, at QLS, I get to hang out with my friends. Sugar Steve, Laia, Von Tigolo, Unpaid Bill, and we, you know, at Questlove Supreme, like to nerd out and do deep dives with musicians and actors and politicians and

We give you the stories behind all your favorite artists and creatives that you have never heard. I'm talking about stories behind their life journeys and their works of art. I love QLS because of the QLS Team Supreme. They're like a second family to me.

If you're a fan of deep diving into music, everything, almanacking your musical history, and learning things about hip-hop artists and things you never thought, then you're a lot like me. But you're also a fan of Questlove Supreme. One of the things I love the most about this show is that we get to learn from the masters. I look at being on this show as my graduate program in music.

Listen to Questlove Supremo on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Supremo! Yeah, no, it's... No, I... You know what? That's what I've always admired about you, and I'm hearing it today. I hear it in the album, like...

you've just always focused on asking good questions. And that's like your life, like that's who you are. And I think that it's so funny because as humans, we get so fixated on the answers and we get so fixated on just a few answers. So we ask the same questions, like, will I ever find my person? Is this the right person? Like we ask the same questions.

And we don't ever get any better answers to the same question. Yeah, there's no answer to those questions. There's no answer to those questions. And what I've seen in you is you're always trying to ask like this wide array of questions that, you know, like where will it go? Because the normal question to that will be like, so when you're so in love and your soul's touched but it's still not in love, where does it go? Most people would go, well, is that love or not? Yeah, does that mean it was love? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

I don't question that. There's zero doubt in my mind that love is love. It's like, where does all that love go to? And I think that question itself is like, oh, that love is still completely here and able to funnel into the same person if they're willing to receive it in a different light or funnel into anyone else around you that you love. But it's also like, damn, like that –

absolutely sucks like that there's just that is just a it just sucks you know so i also i also might have said like uh doesn't that suck you didn't you didn't know that's all i didn't know but that's something i would have read yeah

because it does yeah exactly it's the truth yeah it goes back to your point yeah of the truth yeah but no i really want to encourage people to you know i'm going into my world a bit here but everyone who's listening and watching i really hope this album helps you ask different questions yeah because i i feel like that's a real strength you have and i've learned through being in your company thanks man you don't really ask the same questions that we all ask and i think that's what's led you on this beautiful journey and beautiful path and been able to look at

the same things we all go through, but in a different lens is because it's your ability to always zoom out and ask a question that isn't the obvious one. Oh, wow. Thank you. And it's really powerful. And I love that it's through music. So yeah, sorry, I went into a bit self-development, personal growth. No, no. Hey man, I'm right there. They all know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, for sure. For sure. There's a couple more lyrics here that I love because

And they're just so powerful in the love and relationship space that I have to bring them out.

This, yeah, this one. So, but what about the in-betweens? You lay your head on me living for the next time that we touch. Isn't that enough? Talk me through that. Yeah. I think similarly kind of to what we were just saying is if you're always focused on the highs, you might be waiting a while to receive something special, you know, and all these beautiful in-between moments, like even like for me, allowing myself to kind of like,

love the moment before the show and after the show and the morning and all of that really, it does a lot of things. It actually takes pressure off of the show to have to be such a big deal.

And then it also just helps me enjoy the day generally much more, you know. If I sit there all day being like, there's one important thing today and that's the show, that's basically one and an hour and a half, two hours of my day. What about the rest of it, you know? I want to enjoy the in-betweens too because they are beautiful, you know. Yeah, because otherwise our life's just bookends. They're just, our life, we look back, it's just the highs and lows, you know. Yeah, that, oh wow, like yeah, that's,

Yeah. And I find like it's also then your life becomes a waiting for what the next day is. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're living in constant anticipation. Constant anticipation. Or constant anxiety for something to end. Yes. And that's the only in between you have. Absolutely. It's still linked to a beginning and an end. Yeah. So I'm in anticipation of when will that good thing come? Yeah. And then I'm in anxiety of when will this good thing end? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

One last one, which you go so vulnerable on, you say, where is it? Visions of her naked in my head, but I went off and chose myself instead. Yeah. I mean, there is a voice, maybe you can call it a voice or a feeling, I think, inside of us.

That says sometimes like this is what you got to do. You got to do something hard here, you know. And our very human side will do everything in its power to get you not to do that. And it will just like show you images and movies and the best plot you've ever, you know, seen in your life of the thing happening.

And it can really confuse you and just be like, what have I done? You know, if you are, I mean, I think a really common thing actually I've noticed is a lot of people who have recently been in a breakup would be, would tell me like, oh, like I've been having dreams of them every single night for three months, you know? And I thought that was just me. I thought I was just, I thought I was the only one and I thought it meant something.

And I think that it's really common, you know, just for our, it's part of the process of something. And at the end of the day, like, I think we, all we can do is try to make the best decision that we think is best for ourselves.

accept that because I'm not going to, at the end of my life, God's not going to appear and be like, Hey, all these things you did, those were the right decisions. And all these ones were the wrong ones. Like that's not going to happen. I'm never going to get that. I'm never going to get that. So I'm just trying to understand that. Like, yeah, I think it's, uh,

It's just expressing that side of just like mental torment when you're going through healing. That's just like it wants to keep you somewhere. A big question I ask myself is like when I am struggling to move past something, I ask myself like what is it that holding on to this thing or this person or this way is

What is that protecting me from? Like, what is that way of being protecting me from? So many times it comes back to such a similar thing, you know, and in relationships, it's oftentimes just like, oh, this feeling of comfort, this feeling of I don't want to be alone, you know, and

Beautiful thing is that if you can kind of move through those feelings on the other end might be like a grander sense of comfort from within yourself, but also a greater diversified comfort from many people. And that creates a more consistent sense of home and comfort. And it's just like, it's just interesting how it all works. What about the torment of like people who would say like,

well, why can't you and Camila just make it work and just be together and just like, come on, you love each other so much. Or the other side where people would say, well, if it's not working, just let it be. Just throw it away. Just forget about it. And you're kind of happy to live in the torment of like, I'm happy to be in the in-between. I think the reality is no one will ever know what it's like to be in our bodies and to feel what we feel and to know where we know we're going. Yeah.

Because oftentimes where we know we're going is not something we can express through words to other people. It's just a sense, a sense of where I'm headed. And no one's ever going to understand that. So I just, that stuff is just noise in the wind for me. It feels like we're talking something so surface here about something so immensely deep and complex that...

it's not even worth my time to go into the answer to those questions because there's not even an answer to those questions, you know? And it's not a sense of, I think, choosing to live in torment. I think it's exactly like listening to yourself and trusting that. And I had a friend who was going through a hard decision and they asked me like, I said, you just got to follow your intuition. I'm like, what does that feel like? And I'm like, well...

I can't necessarily, I'm like, I don't know, like a little thing in your stomach or your heart. I'm like, I actually don't know. But this is clearly exactly the moment that you are about to learn what it feels like. And if you can't find that sense of intuition, then at that point, I don't know what guides us. Also, if you're not sure, you might not be ready to make the decision yet. There's a pressure to make decisions all the time.

I understand you don't want to waste people's time. I understand you don't want to do the wrong thing prematurely, but like some things just need to play themselves out. And it's, I think that's just a reality too, you know? So allow yourself to get to that place, but don't let yourself go over that place, please. I'm going to say this to you because I don't think I've said this to you before, but it's an interesting reflection I'm having right now. I actually feel with you, we get a sense of your old soul when you're

I ask you a superficial question. And actually like, and I haven't tried to ask any profound questions today because that's not my goal, but there's a beautiful simplicity of you that comes out because you would never answer a basic simple question in a basic simple way. And that's what I think actually kind of demonstrates where your consciousness is in a beautiful way. And so it's just a thought I'm having right now. I'm like, I'm never going to ask you a profound question ever again in my life.

Because that's not it for you. For you, your, like, essence comes out when you're having, like, a conversation that people would think is really normal. Yeah. But you just don't look at it that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. I almost can't compute. It's like the thing happens in my head where I can't compute surface. Yeah. And I'm like...

it's not computing we gotta get we gotta get under it that's how we get to see that you're not computing oh that's cool does that make sense yeah totally and I only realized it while having this conversation I was like oh yeah like but um but yeah I wanted to show you something because um I sent it you can you'll probably guess who it's from um which I thought was really beautiful oh that's beautiful man

Is Tony crying? What was he crying about? Probably a lot of things. He's going through a lot of beautiful things in his life right now too. But these are my people. I talk about like an album is not just about making music if you let it. It can also be about completely changing your life and the relationship to the people you've made the album with.

What this has done for me and these guys, it's just like they became friendships to lifelong friendships, you know. What does it feel like being in this room 10 years? Dude. That to me feels like such an incredible journey that we're getting to be a part of here. To sit in here 10 years older, you were what? You were 16? Yeah. 15, going on 16. Yeah, I remember singing Treat You Better in here and like,

i love that song yeah i just was i i remember just like so much inner torment and so much breakthrough like this is this place of breakthrough for me this is always where i'm found the wall and i've broken through it and it's just a magical little place dude it's like it's like my version of hogwarts here you know it really is and um i can't i'm just so happy like this this time around like what i've been really trying to do is

everything to be really have a lot of intention of just like, we're here right now, you know, and we're upstate and I'm going to play a show in a few days where I made the album. It's like, you have to work so much harder to curate an experience when you just allow the story, you just kind of let the story happen and support that, you know, and it just feels like,

Yeah, I needed a lot of holding. And even just through this week, like the first little show I did yesterday, like I needed to be in this room. This room knows how to hold me. And yeah, man, just cool. I just love it here. I'll be here for many more years. Yeah. I think I feel like everyone can find a similar place like this for themselves. I hope so. It may not be a place where they record music, but a place that they can turn to and come to and be held by and...

be embraced by and feel rooted and feel nourished and yeah i hope this acts as a symbol to encourage people to look for that and it could just be a little tree somewhere on a hike it could just what's your take on that yeah look for it or be open to the fact that you might be in it and you know might know it very well and yeah it's just having a space that holds the intention of

The place you go to lay it all out, you know, really like lay it all out and break through and struggle. And not all studios feel like this. It's also a beautiful town we're in too. Like this town is special and being, you know, in nature, like that's just like,

In the winter it gets really different here too. It's a whole story. Yeah, we've had rain and thunder in this interview. You've had rain and thunder every day. In this interview already. It's beautiful. You've been looking at it. I've been looking at it behind you. It was raining. Sean, you talked about your sister and I talked about mine. And Elia actually sent us a note. No way.

My sister? Yes. Oh no, I'm going to cry already. Is it okay if I read it to you? Sure. Prash hooked it up. Prash hooked this up? Oh no. You ready? Sure. So she says, Dear Sean, I want to start by saying a huge thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for opening up your heart, being brave, and sharing your incredible gifts with all of us. Thank you for being not just a beautiful human,

but also the most amazing friend, brother, son, mentor and artist. I'm truly at a loss for words to describe how proud I am of you, how proud we all are. Your music today feels like the most genuine and authentic art you've ever created. It's filled with vulnerability, fear, diversity, patience, humility, pain and a sense of home.

But above all, it feels unapologetically and beautifully you. Watching you grow over the years has been such a privilege. I feel extremely lucky to be by your side as your little sister and to be a part of this incredible process with you. You've taught me so much about connecting with my own heart and body, tapping into embracing my truths, and living with more love, perspective, and abundance.

I absolutely adore your eagerness to learn and the way you listen so thoughtfully. Eagerness is a kind word. And I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching your unique YouTube videos with you. Honestly, you're like a real life freaking cool superhero to me. Thank you for having the courage to be imperfect and for sharing that with the world. Your compassion and kindness both towards yourself and others are real superpowers.

We all feel the depth of your connection through your authenticity. It shines in everything you do, and it's especially powerful in Sean, the album Lol. This connection you create through your music has helped me feel more grounded in my own life, and I know it will resonate with others in just as meaningful a way." It's like nine hearts with love so deeply, Aliyah. Oh man, that's so beautiful. Thank you. That means a lot.

I love you, Alina. Oh, man. Yeah. She's my best friend. Over the last six months, we've just gotten so close. And my little big sister, too. I think when you start letting your little sister be your big sister sometimes, it's such a beautiful experience when you see your pain turn into something beautiful and then...

people start to feel that way. And you got to believe people when they tell you, you know, especially in people in my life, like she would not say that if she didn't mean it, even for you. And so, yeah, I'm just, I'm kind of in awe of it all and grateful for it all because although I was there every day doing it, like there really was a greater thing at play. And yeah, man, it's been, it's been the most healing thing I've ever done. Yeah. I really hope people feel that way, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I mean, I wanted you to hear it from her because I feel like we all need to hear it. Yeah. We all need to hear it. Yeah. And, you know, I can imagine that when you finish an album, it's actually the beginning of then sharing it with the world. Yeah. And so my hope today internally was like, I want you to feel so much love. Yeah. And so much support and so much embrace that as you go out and... I thought of it almost like this, like at the beginning, it's this little spark that's so, you know, tender and...

you have the people you really trust and you show them little clips of it, little voice memos and they put little, they put their little twigs on it and that flame starts to grow and then you start showing other people and they put a log and I almost imagine my team and my friends and my family each placing logs on this fire and now we just have this like,

massive bonfire going there if there was a hurricane it wouldn't blow it out it's just like all right now we're good give it to the world it can handle anything you know and that's really what it feels like it feels so much greater than anything i could be a part of and but thank you that's really so sweet man all right i love you man i always have it it's really special for me as well because i feel like i've said this to you and i want to say out loud it's the

You had every reason when I met you to just keep doing what would have been the right business decision, the right professional decision, the right artist decision from a result standpoint. And I think your bravery and courage at your age and the maturity to step back and actually say, I'm going to go on a deep inward journey now.

And I don't even want to use the words find yourself because that would mean that you've completed it and now you're sharing it. So just go on a journey of self-discovery and adventure. And then to come back to this when you feel you're ready to share wherever you currently are, it would have been so much easier to just not think about these things. Yeah.

in the short term and as I've said to you before I've seen people do that for three or four decades and then finally figure it out and the fact that you chose to do it so young is an immense credit to your incredible family your friends to you your team and everyone around you because you made the hardest most difficult decision in your position

And I'm so like happy to just see the fruits of it. Me too, man. Because I still remember so many conversations of... Infinite. All the little seeds that we planted of like intention and love and...

hope and everything it's all just everything's blooming we're standing in the farm of just like a lot like everything at the same it's almost overwhelming the amount that starts to happen in the harvest and it's just yeah this season yeah and i'm so humbled that you allowed me to not only

walk that parts of that journey little parts of that journey with you but have this opportunity today too because yeah it's uh it's rare that you get to live in these cycles with people yeah especially when we're so busy and you know and so i'm so grateful that this is the first of our hopefully forever cycles yes sir i'm with you all the way i love you i'm rooting for you and thank you jay i got your back through it all thank you man i know you do yeah i really appreciate you man you too man uh we we end every on purpose with a

final five which are a fast five you have to answer each question in one word to one sentence let's give it a shot let's try this they're not superficial okay i'm not like what's your favorite you start getting long-winded questions uh question number one sean these are your fast five question number one what is the best advice you've ever heard or received wow nothing's coming to mind that's good i like that already it all sums up in

an energy, I guess, more that's just like anytime someone says something that just allows there to be more space, you know. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard? To suck it up. Question number three, how would you define your current purpose? I would define my current purpose with just being committed to be

the most honest version of myself in every moment, you know. I have a lot of trust in what that will do in this world. And I think I've learned so much, like even just to be here, I've learned so much about following my truth into the dark and feeling like I'm letting people down, but how that led me into creating a really beautiful healing album and hopefully how that will pick people up. And it's kind of all part of it. Yeah.

Question four is what's the message to the fans with this album, Sean? Bring your tissues. I love you guys. And I am beyond grateful for your patience and your love. And it's a beautiful thing to be growing up at the same time as you. And so I hope a lot of the words and the stories resonate with you. And I hope you feel me because I feel like we've been out of connection for a long time. And

I just always want to be honest with you guys no matter what. And so I hope you love it. A little offshoot of that. Why was now the right time to come back for you? There was a moment six months ago when Andrew and a couple of people I love, they kind of like were like, hey, can we just play you back some ideas you've sent us that we think are cool? And I was like, they're probably not. And they brought me into the room and they played them back. And I was like, these are kind of cool. And it was just very obvious to me that like,

I got to go try, you know, like I think oftentimes people wait for inspiration to fall into their lap before they try. And then sometimes you got to go in there and chop wood and carry water for a few days before inspiration strikes. And, you know, three days of like, why am I here? I should not be here. I'm not ready to be here. The fourth day inspiration strikes. Six months later, you forgot you ever were chopping wood and carrying water. You were just enjoying yourself and making art. And it just...

changed, you know, so it's the right time, I guess, just because it is. Did you really want to leave in those first three days? Desperately. Yeah. And it's funny how quickly I forgot I wanted to leave and how quickly it just turned into passion and inspired to make something beautiful again, like almost like a night and day difference. Just

That's how inspiration works sometimes. Feel the fear and do it anyway. Exactly. Yeah. You're not going to wait for it to be free of fear and then take the step. Yeah, no, no, no. The fear is like the greatest thing because you're scared of something and that something is probably something worth writing about if you're a writer, you know. Fifth and final question we ask this to anyone who's ever been on the show. The question is, if you had to create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

The law would be to say what you really feel, you know, but to say it in a way that doesn't really hurt people. But like to speak the truth, you know, speak your truth. You're going to get so much further, I think, with that. That'd be a horrible law, though. And hilarious. Yeah. I'm going to get arrested if I don't say this, man. But that hair does not... Not your hair right now. Your hair looks great. Yeah.

I love that. Sean, thank you, my brother. I appreciate you. It's been beautiful. It's been a lot of fun. Yes, it has. It's been emotional. It's been deep and raw and vulnerable, just like the album.

I can't wait to see you perform live. I'm so excited. Thank you, man. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion. My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable

The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength and gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that. In 1982, Atari players had one game on their minds: Sword Quest.

because the company had promised $150,000 in prizes to four finalists. But the prizes disappeared, leading to one of the biggest controversies in 80s pop culture. I'm Jamie Loftus. Join me this spring for The Legend of Swordquest. We'll follow the quest for lost treasure across four decades. Listen to The Legend of Swordquest on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akilah Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the Rebels, into something everyone in the South loves, the biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? It's right here in black and white in print. It's bigger than a flag or mascot.

Listen to Rebel Spirit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Eva Longoria. And I'm Maite Gomez-Rejon. We're so excited to introduce you to our new podcast, Hungry for History. On every episode, we're exploring some of our favorite dishes, ingredients, beverages from our Mexican culture. We'll share personal memories and family stories, decode culinary customs, and even provide a recipe or two for you to try at home. ♪

Listen to Hungry for History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.