From Lithuania with love: how Granta Automony drones are changing war
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Welcome to today's episode of Lexicon. I'm Christopher McFadden, contributing writer for Interesting Engineering. Today we sit down with Gediminas Guabo, but before our new episode, check out our educational platform, the IE Academy. From IE to data, we'll provide top quality courses with live and interactive workshops with professional instructors, and you're invited to join the community. Now let's continue with today's episode. Gediminas, thanks for joining us. How are you today?

Very good. Thank you. How are you? Very well, thank you. Thanks for joining us. For our audience's benefit, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, please? Yeah, so...

In general, I'm a technical guy. I'm an engineer in the past with experience over 20 years in different areas, mostly in software engineering, but also in hardware engineering. And after I started my company, Grand Autonomy, that focuses on UAVs, on drones. I've also got a lot of experience in aerodynamics and mechanical engineering, carrier engineering,

embedded devices and so on and so on. So yeah, in general, I have quite, quite big, quite big, quite broad experience in, in, in, in different areas. Yeah, here in grant autonomy, I'm also operator. And by the way, I'm a drones operator for last 10 years. So yeah,

I had very simple operations here in Lithuania, like military, different operations and so on. Two operations or missions behind enemy lines. So yeah, I have battlefield experience flying like tens of kilometers behind enemy lines, doing reconnaissance there, fighting with Russian jammers, looking for where...

equipment and so on and so on. So yeah, my experience is quite broad, but yeah, mostly I'm a technical guy, but at the same time now I'm more into a business.

Okay, so you've used them, designed drones, actually used them in combat. So, wow, okay. We'll get into more detail in a bit. So, what are some of the key technical advances or advancements in Granta Autonomies drones? How do these features enhance their effectiveness in combat? I would say, yeah, most...

The most different thing comparing with other drone companies, Grand Autonomy is not just another drone platform company, like Integrator, that just gets different components, puts them together, and that's what makes those drones. Actually, we are focusing on critical components for drones. So first of all, Datalink. So we have developed

and test it and that's actually what we were testing at the front lines. We have test on data link that is jamming resilient

So yeah, we have proven in Ukraine against Ukrainian jammers, later other front lines against Russian jammers. So that is our knowledge. And that knowledge, that experience started 10 years ago. So we collected quite a lot of experience and quite a lot of knowledge about Russian electronic warfare capabilities. And that's what allowed us to create jamming resilient data link.

The other thing, of course, inertial system that allows us to fly in genesis-denied environments. But probably the most critical, the most complicated component of the UAV are gimbals. So

And yeah, that's what we developed for the last seven or eight years. So in general, from the beginning, when we started to design drones in 2017, we were developing gimbals for ourselves too, because there were no in-the-market such small gimbals that we can fit in our small UAVs. That's why we started to

design gimbals too. So, oh well. But yeah, that allowed us to gain a lot of experience in mechanics and electronics and how gimbals works from software and development side and sensors, how to choose those sensors, how to choose optics, how to put everything together and ensure that they perfectly work together. So yeah, that's what makes us different.

So yeah, we know not only drones, how to fly them, but we know deep, deep in details. We have a lot of know-how about those critical components because yeah, we are developing them. So do your drones use a lot of off-the-shelf third-party parts then or mostly in-house developed components?

Some of them, but yeah, a lot of parts are developed in our company because electronic software development mechanics and so on is developed in our company. And yeah, in general, our drone is classified as military drone for military purposes only. So yeah, that's not something what you can just buy off the shelf. Yeah, that's fair enough.

You can't tell me too much anyway, I'm sure. So from your experience on the front lines in Ukraine, what have you learned about the practical applications and limitations of drone technology in modern warfare? Yeah, just good thinking. I think I found more things when I... Yeah, I learned more things about drones when I...

limitations. Of course, limitations in general, like, for example, in GNSS, denied environment, when you do a

target correction. Of course, that is a limitation as you don't have precise coordinates and you need to keep updating UAV's coordinates to provide precise coordinates of the target. But yeah, I think that is a limitation for now maybe. But yeah, in a year or maximum in two years, that limitation will just be gone. Because yeah, a lot of companies

Okay, maybe not a lot of companies, but there are really some very good products already in the market that provides precise coordinates for you using just optical navigation. So yeah, that is maybe a problem now, part of the problem, but yeah, I'm sure it will be solved in a year or so. The same with jamming.

So, yeah, for example, for our kind of UAVs, like reconnaissance UAVs, jamming is already not a problem. Because, yeah, the...

Both UAVs are quite sophisticated and jammers just useless against them. And that's not something unusual for our UAV because, yeah, in general, Ukrainians fly above Russian occupied territories and Russians can do anything by using Conley jammers. And Russians fly above Ukrainian territory and Ukrainians can do anything about that.

So that's not something new, but where we see jammers really work, we work against FPV drones. At least they did a few months ago, right? Now we see more and more like this limitation goes away too because, yeah,

A lot of frequencies were introduced, not only those civil frequencies. And I think jamming kind of killer was optical cable, right?

when Russians started to use them and demonstrated that Jamfers were completely useless after it was introduced. So yeah, there are limitations, but those limitations, let's say,

They limit us just today. Tomorrow probably will be completely different. So, and yeah, that's actually how it works. If you have limitation today, probably it won't be limitation, I don't know, in a month, in six months or so. So, yeah.

Have you seen it advance a lot, jamming capability, throughout the, was it a thousand days now in Ukraine? Or was it sophisticated at the start and it's just got more sophisticated now? If that makes any sense. I think mostly...

mostly radio links or data links have improved to overcome those jammers because from physical perspective jammers are not really on that strong side and for data links for radio links for communication it always will be easier to overcome jammers and

somehow even run away from them and ensure communication. So yeah, I can't really say that jammers have improved a lot. They did, of course they did, but yeah, till data links have improved much, much more. Okay, all right. Are you finding yourself, well, is there any, say with Starlink, I don't know if you can talk about it, but

has there been a move towards the use of things like Starlink for data links for drone usage or not? Is it mostly ground stations and things? Yeah. It's mostly ground station things, but definitely it can help and helps in bigger projects

in bigger drones. Like, for example, what we saw from, I know, maybe even two years ago, we saw it using in boats, in USVs, right? Now we see it even in drones, in air drones, like even in Shahed. So, yeah, bigger drones definitely can care

onward starlings and yeah that can be used as a data link but yeah for the most cases it's a

it's a ground thing and yeah us ukrainians joke uh like even like i know one or two years ago every uh ukrainian soldier or operator on the ground in one pocket we have mobile phone and in another another pocket pocket we have starling and yeah that's that that's the reality because yeah there are

There are a lot of them. So yeah, Starlink definitely as a technology changed the world. And yeah, it keeps changing. That is, I know, a great invention and provides a great advancement for Ukrainians. Yeah, because the receiver will be quite heavy. So it's limited to the larger drones, like you say, isn't it? Smaller drones, yeah.

Not really possible yet, I see. Okay, so how has Granta Autonomy achieved such widespread integration of its drones within Ukrainian military? What challenges did you face during this process, if any? Yeah, so I think what helped us to ensure that our products will reach front lines was...

actually participating in tests in Ukraine and going to front lines and doing tests there and showcasing how our system works. Because, yeah, we started to send our systems to Ukraine in 2022, March. So just after a few weeks after war started. But yeah, initially we

We were just collecting feedback from operators who were working there. And that was not enough, actually, for us to get a little bit more clear picture how everything works and what needs to be improved. And yeah, we were sending them. We send them a lot. But yeah, that worked.

That improvements, products improvements were not so great as we did after we started to go to Ukraine on our own. And that was completely different experience when you are participating in even in range tests, trying to fight Ukrainian jammers who are probably one of the best in the world.

And then you understand, okay, how it works and what you need to do to overcome them. That was first step. And yeah, then second step, and we started to go to the front lines and operate there and absorb all that environment, what is going on there, continuous bombing, jamming, spoofing, and jamming not only from Russian side, but only from Ukrainian side. And that's usual thing.

And then you start to care about, okay, you need to, you don't, you can't go too low because someone can, even from Ukrainian side, someone can shoot down your drone and so on, so on. So there was, yeah, the

we got a lot of experience there and that experience helped us to improve that product to make it really good product not on paper like testing only in civil peaceful environment but

testing in real environment, understanding what actually is needed for product to make it capable to work at the frontline in that harshest environment. So, yeah, I think that is the most critical thing, what we have learned and how we have built that product and ensured that it was accepted by all Ukrainian forces and it is used in Ukraine.

Something you keep mentioning which I've never considered before is friendly fire jamming from your own forces. Is that a big problem in drone warfare that you found? We didn't lost anyone of our drones ourselves.

I remember other operators saying that no one else shut down so many of our drones as our operators.

members, our troops. So yeah, blue on blue is a big problem. That's very natural because even your drone can look like not really like a Russian drone. No one knows actually who's that drone. And drone in general is a threat, right? And when you see one, you don't really think, is it mine? Is it not mine? You just want to

it go away and you don't care about it. And that is a normal thing. About jammers also, but yeah, of course there is like alignment or arrangement. If, for example,

fighting starts and all jammers turn on and so on. So yeah, always you get kind of a green corridor to make you able to return safely your bird back home. So yeah, that part is okay. But yeah, still...

spoofing jamming uh firing is is a problem for waff size yeah it must be quite scary for the frontline troops like you say you don't have this friend or foe because you could even have ukrainian markings on it but it could be the russians like i say spoofing you pretending to be yeah horrible well war's horrible anyway but uh yeah i added elements my god um you know

enemies drones working above you and yeah many things i presume they're using similar similar drone um models the russians and the and the ukrainian troops apart from your from your own obviously i presume they look basically the same from the ground uh once again russian drones and ukrainian drones the ones they're using in combat presumably they look very similar

from the ground already? In general, it's hard to see them because usually, for example, we even operate even at 30 kilometers distance. We operate usually at least 800 meters above the ground

And from that distance, our bird almost is invisible. Right, right. So, yeah, and if you work like 1.5 kilometers high, then it's even more harder. So, yeah, it's really hard to see. But, for example, when you return home, usually you return around 500 meters above ground. So, yeah, it's more likely that someone will see you.

Yeah, fair enough. So it leads into my next question, really. So how does the feedback from Ukrainian forces on the battlefield shape the development and refinement of your drone technology? Or how has it changed the design, if any, of your drones? Um...

In the beginning of 2022, when we started to send our UAVs, we were sending our second generation UAVs, which were capable to do reconnaissance up to 12 kilometers. And that was fixed thing, type UAV, everything was fine. But yeah, Ukrainians showed that copters can reach

further than that. So couplers were covering close distances, like they were able to do reconnaissance up to 12, 15 kilometers. And we found out that, okay, such kind of fixed thing, QAV, is not needed anymore because it's much more complicated to operate, it's much more complicated to build. So yeah, that actually pushed all the

ranges or yeah ranges what at least how much what distance should make or should reach fixed link type UAV that pushed quite a lot to the front so yeah now I think

minimum distance what is very required for a fixed thing to be acceptable in other front lines is around maybe 30 kilometers or so because even fpv drones can reach 20-25 kilometers yeah and even bringing two kilograms or three kilograms warheads and i know what uh

Now some FPVs are reaching QRN further. So yeah, actually...

Actually, Ukrainians, their innovations push boundaries of drones quite a lot. In 2022, even fixed things usually were reaching like 30 kilometers. Now everyone is talking about 70, 80, 90 kilometers. So yeah, boundaries are pushed quite a lot. And yeah, I think

That is kind of normal because the world dictates what you need to go forward. You need to reach targets or do reconnaissance much, much further behind the lines. So, yeah.

Yeah, it does seem like a crucible there for drone technology. It must have advanced more than you could have possibly imagined even in, what, two, three years. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah, this is, let's say it in that way, this is the best time for now to develop drone technologies because, yeah, especially, yeah, for Ukraine, they are poor, so they don't have other choice. But for other countries, yeah,

neighbor countries like Lithuania for us it's like 24 hours and we can be at the front lines and test our stuff there like in real environment against real jammers so yeah that really helps us to develop new technologies and to understand what is needed tomorrow

What's going to be tomorrow, yeah. Yeah. And so are you seeing a big kind of push for FPV quadcopters or copters, copter drones, what for recon and then the fixed wing drones for what suicide attacks and hitting tanks and things or not? Are they kind of being specialized into different roles, different kinds of drones or it's just kind of a mixture? Yeah.

I think there will be a mixture because fixed-wing UAVs always will be able to reach much further targets that are much further, comparing with copters.

So yeah, but if you have targets closer in reach of a copter, you always will use a copter because copter is much cheaper to build. For example, FPV drone, even the one that can go 20-25 kilometers costs around, I know, up to 1,000 euros, right? And to build such a fixed thing, UAB, will cost you much, much more. So yeah, for...

ranges that copters can reach you always will want to use a copter or fpv drone yeah okay and they're more versatile presumably the copter ones for for troops for infantry i would have thought easy to deploy and because you need to go support don't you yeah yeah and and then uh

fixed-wing UAVs or large-ring munitions will be used for more strategical targets like radars, jammers, air defense systems and so on. So let's say like the traditional aircraft, the helicopter would provide close support. The troops and the fixed wing more like an air force. Yeah, close support because... Plus, yeah, 25 kilometers now it's not close. Fair enough. Okay, and

So could you elaborate on the role of drone technology in the broader geopolitical landscape, particularly in ensuring the security of the Baltic states and Europe, if possible? Yeah, so...

I think even a year ago, and maybe it's still the case, but many countries were arguing if drones actually will change those heavy equipment like tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, and so on, or artillery.

And yeah, I think now is kind of agreement, but yes, FPV drones didn't change artillery and probably they won't, but they expanded their capabilities because using Conley artillery, we wouldn't reach that point when, yeah. What situation now is the other front lines? 10 kilometers away.

range from both sides, no one is moving. There is just no life at all. Because if there is someone moving, trying to move from place to place, they are destroyed immediately using FPV drones. And that's not something what artillery can do. Artillery can fire at more or less static positions. So non-moving objects. And FPV drones can reach anything else.

And even, yeah, FPV drones were started to be used even against a single person. So that shows just how cheap they became. So yeah, definitely drones changed the situation in war. And seems like countries are agreeing, but okay, actually it made a difference

It is a game changer. And I'm very happy that, for example, in Lithuania, like, you know, eight months ago, 12 months ago, no one really talked about FPV drones in armed forces. Now we have deliveries to armed forces. We have training in armed forces, training to operate FPV drones. So that changed completely.

And I see more and more countries started to talk, okay, we need to get that technology. We need to start manufacturing drones in our countries because that's the future. And especially when we see not only air vehicles, like unmanned air vehicles, we see all kinds of unmanned vehicles, surface vehicles, ground vehicles, underwater vehicles, and so on and so on.

A lot of them, different kind of types, and all of them doing something. And I think in future we just will see more and more kind of drones doing different stuff. So yeah, I think it did change already how politics looks or sees drones. I'm sure it will change in future even more.

You'll be interested to see how it changes literary doctrine. I know you mentioned artillery. Obviously they're great for spotting like balloons during World War I. Obviously tanks are suffering heavily, heavy armors suffering from drone attacks. Be interesting to see how that, if tanks are a thing in 20, 30 years. I know it's one of those things they've been saying that for the last 60 years, but this might be the end of tanks forever.

Probably. It's hard to say for me because my most experienced military is operating drones. I can just say how it's easy to spot artillery or tank, which is very hot in general, when we work or move somewhere. So using thermal cameras and so on, so on.

That is their weakness because, yeah, they can be very easily spotted. And that can be also a reason for them, like, why they are already moved away from the frontlines, far, far away from the frontlines. But I think going forward, they will be able to move even further because, yeah, again, cheap products

Cheap munition, precise munition, like FPV drones reaching further and further. So yeah, all that expensive equipment needs to be hidden or moved away from the front lines. And at some point, I think we will reach that point when, okay, we will say that, okay, tanks probably...

will be used just for some tactics. I know for dynamic war, for dynamic...

fights like yeah you don't have time to like I know deploy drone operators make them safe and make them safe to operate drones or something so maybe in more dynamic war tanks will be will be useful more but yeah what we see in Ukraine in in both static positions in general yeah tanks

tanks lost quite, yeah, both sides loses quite a lot of that heavy equipment. Are you seeing any innovation in sort of trenches, trench design or technology to counter drones? Or it's just more kind of using more camouflage or, I don't know, overhead protection over the trenches? I haven't been there, I can't say, but...

Yeah, so even now Ukrainians hide under, I know, in three-meter-deep trenches. So, yeah, so it's already the case. Because, yeah, again, FTE drones are really precise things. And if you will allow them to find you and to fly, I know, even in a tunnel to reach you, they will do that.

And so, yeah, there is no other way how to hide

a lot, like hide very deep underground, especially if you talk about Russians. Russians use quite a lot of those cab by gunrets. So that is very important. Or only one way to hide from them is just to dig deep and hide deep underground. So yeah, and for drones I think that will be the same thing.

Maybe at some point we will extend our... Or we will make drones so much autonomous. Or we will introduce maybe some kind of other radio links to ensure that we won't need people close to the front lines. Or we will be able to stay in a safe place. But yeah, for now...

I think, yeah, the safest place is, especially when we talk about Russia, is deep, deep underground. It sounds like they can follow you down there, though. That's quite sinister. So, yeah, even if it gets into the trench, it can follow the trench and go into tunnels. Oh, my God. Yes, exactly. That's what we see at the front lines. Oh, yeah.

As if it wasn't scary enough. Okay. All right. So, next question. What sets grants FPV quadcopters? And is it the Hornet XR drone? Apart from other military drones in design capability and deployment. You've kind of touched on this a bit. Yeah, so...

Our reconnaissance drone is called Hornet XR, FPV drone is called Mosquito. And yeah, what it makes different from other FPV drones. So in general, yeah, again, we used our experience in electronic warfare

and we made much more reliable or much more resilient radio link against jammers and yeah again we have proved it in Ukraine so yeah that's one thing another thing but it

You can see it in most of the drones of one or other capabilities. We have added also terminal guidance. So that also allows if you are losing line of sight with your drone and what means what probably you will lose control over it too, you can use terminal guidance to lock drone on the target and then the drone will follow that target automatically.

autonomously without any input from the operator. So yeah, those are probably two of the most critical features that we add into each of our drones. That's interesting. So it's a bit like fire and forget at the end if you lose signal. Yeah. Hit that. Yeah, last mile delivery. Yeah, if you like. So could it track a moving target then? Yes, exactly. Wow.

That's impressive. Okay. Again, we kind of talked about this, but we'll ask it anyway. How do you envisage the future of drone technology and warfare? And what ethical considerations does this raise? Yeah. So mostly, yeah, ethical considerations is mostly about...

about autonomy, right? About finding targets and about deciding, uh,

allowing for drones to decide is it their targets or no so yeah i think that's the most scariest thing and um yeah i know how it will evolve going forward but uh but yeah that was the scariest thing for me then if people move to that direction my drones will decide is it

Is it a target or not? Maybe there can be some safety measures or something. But yeah, I hope we won't reach that point. But yeah, even if we will play according to post rules, what drone can't decide, it doesn't mean that Russians will go the same way or other countries. So yeah, for myself, that's the scariest thing. Yeah, okay. Do you have a...

Do you envisage a future where human soldiers, like a tank would be now, they're too expensive to use against a large swarm of drones? Would there be a time in the future where even infantry becomes obsolete or not cost-effective? Wanted a better term to use on the battlefield? Or there's always going to be a role for infantry, even with drones?

Big question. I think at some point we will reach that point. Yeah. That won't be like in two years or even five years, but I think we are going to that direction because, yeah, again,

You don't want to waste human lives there, right? So we always will try to use robots or autonomy to fight against our potential enemy. So yeah, I think it will be in that way. But yeah,

there is like a kind of rule that you don't have that land, you don't rule that land until there is no boots on the ground, right? So, yeah, in any way, finally, humans will need to go there and stay there. But, yeah, we'll see.

I do expect, but yeah, we will use more drones for that purpose to ensure that we are saving our human lives. Yeah, but with the actual engage in killing a target, do you have a foreseeable future where that will be autonomously, how do I say, decided by the drone or is always going to be a human decision?

in the command chain, yes, you can kill that or not. I'm sure drones will be able to decide that because, as I said, even...

We had different mine agreements, right? You do not use one kind or another kind of mines. But yeah, it doesn't work with all countries. And we see it in Ukraine too. So in general, with drones, I see it in the same way. Even if we would agree, okay, let's do not go there, but drones decides can we destroy a target or no.

So even if we will decide to do not go that way, it doesn't mean that our enemy will agree with that too. Probably not, because they will see it as our weakness. So I would say we need to work on that direction, but at the same time use it very carefully or try to avoid using it. So that's my position. But yeah, again,

I live next to Russia. I know what they are for the last, I don't know how many years. So, yeah, I don't want to be like, I don't know. I know what they will do. Yeah, they will go the way which ensures their victory and they won't care about like a...

human lives, even their humans or soldiers. So, yeah, we need to be prepared for that. Yeah, and that could even include civilians, presumably non-combatants. Yes, exactly. It's very sad. Yeah, I'm sure.

I don't need to learn that. Okay. While your technology focuses on military applications, do you see the potential for your drones in the civilian sector, such as search and rescue or disaster response operations? Yeah, sure.

Sure. Many components that we develop or at least our experience can be used in civil life because some of those components are dual purpose or can be converted into a dual purpose. For example, like UN Data Link, which is military purpose now, but it can be adapted for civil use and to ensure, especially for law enforcement, but

But we would have a reliable link. It doesn't matter what. Because, yeah, we see that even jammers, everyone in the world can buy a jammer from China. It's not a problem. You can't use it legally, of course, but you can buy it. So, yeah. So at some point, I think we can see those...

We can see those issues like someone or some officers were unable to use their radios because someone was jamming them in civil life. So yeah, that's one thing. Our gimbals definitely are dual-purpose and all the reconnaissance drones. Actually, we were working in...

We were using our drones not only for military purpose in the past, for example, for border patrol, for police needs, for searching people, search and rescue. So yeah, definitely they can be used. The thing or the fact that we are used in...

But a battlefield just confirms what they can be used in most difficult environment. Absolutely. So for better days then, maybe you can get some civilian contracts. So how has Lithuania's innovation ecosystem supported Granta Autonomy's growth? And what further steps could be taken to position the country as a potential leader in drone technology, in your view? Yeah, so...

After 2022, a lot of new companies were established here in Lithuania to work on the defense sector, to work on new technologies that can be used in defense. A lot of new funds or venture capital funds were established to support defense because before 2022, there was zero

zero venture capitals that were supporting defense. So yeah, that's changing. That's changing a lot. We got a lot of focus on technologies. And most importantly, if before 2022, the most engineers were focusing on civil applications, now we find more and more very good engineers who say, okay,

I want to make a difference. I want to work for defense. I want to join you. And that's even, yeah, that's very great because we get motivated people who wants to focus on defense, who wants to understand what defense is about. And they feel proud about that. So, yeah, that's

For us, as a country who is very close to Russia, who feels probably that war in a little bit different way comparing with Western countries, for us, it's a very good motivation to work on defense, to improve things, and especially to make them real. And real, I mean like working in the battlefield. That's really...

Yeah, and you're getting great experience for free really, I mean, with Ukraine. It's a bad way to say it, but yeah. Okay, that's the end of my questions. Is there anything else you would like to add that we haven't mentioned? About drones or Granta in general?

Yeah, I think, yeah, we talked a lot of things. So yeah, I'm very happy having this conversation. Very good. That's been very interesting. Before we go, is there any social media, websites, videos, anything you'd like to promote to our audience?

Yes, we have a Granta Sotronomi LinkedIn where we post our videos from the battlefield, from our tests of our UAV, our insights about the battlefield. So yeah, please feel free to join us and follow us. Excellent. I certainly will have a look myself. That sounds fascinating.

other than that thank you for your time good to meet us that was uh that was very very interesting yeah thanks very much that concludes this episode of lexicon thank you all for tuning in and being our guest today as always follow our social media channels for the latest science and technology news also don't forget to explore iacademy for new courses goodbye for now