Battle of the Bastards: Achilles v Odysseus w/ Hermes Michaela
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to the listeners at home. We are, this is a fun, absurd holiday episode. I almost said Halloween, which is an incredibly great indicator of where my mind is at. This is a holiday episode. Michaela and I are recording together where, well, we are mostly just going to rant and ramble at you. And we're pretty excited about it. We're pretty excited about it, but it is the first time I have, I am recording an introduction to

Uh, whilst she is on the call with me. And that's because I don't want to do additional work after this. Today we are here with what is now the second annual Battle of the Bastards. McKayla made a face, you're right, I'm not sure I did it last year, I think it was the year before. It doesn't matter. It is the second annual regardless of that being not an accurate phrasing.

We are here for a battle of the bastards because a couple years ago I did just a silly little thing where I compared Theseus and Jason to determine who was the biggest piece of shit and or the most useless. That's Theseus and Jason respectful. It was a respectable, respectfully, respectively.

um also this episode is going to have minimal editing so we're just going to do our best in the recording and uh you all just get to hear what i sound like when i am still getting used to speaking into a microphone for the first time in a few months um but we today's is not about theseus and jason though no no no this one was michaela's idea she said live you did this thing a couple years ago wouldn't this be fun but what if it was achilles versus odysseus and i'm

Gods, was that a great idea? Not least because we both have these problematic faves who we are devoted to while simultaneously acknowledging that they are pieces of human garbage in the ancient sources for varied reasons. They're slightly problematic. They have little problems. Yeah, they're problematic faves. Everyone's got to have one.

I love Odysseus despite the fact that he was a murderous piece of human garbage who caused more destruction than most other characters in Greek mythology combined. And Michaela loves Achilles even though he was a whiny little bitch sometimes. Yep.

Truly. He truly was. And I adore it, not least because of, you know, Burrito Achilles. We get that. Burrito Achilles? You know Burrito Achilles. Oh, I do know Burrito Achilles. Yes. Yes. Exactly.

These are the important things. I will try to post a burrito Achilles on the Instagram to when this episode comes out. I will remind you. Yeah. Text me a photo so that I can pop it onto a fun little graphic of burrito Achilles. Maybe we could also, we'll also post one of my favorite Achilles pieces of pottery, which is the one where he's like bandaging himself up and he's like tiny little dick. It's just like in the forefront of the frame. Yeah.

For no good reason. It's him and Patroclus together. He's bandaging up Patroclus and they're both just there. It's just a tiny little penis and it's just right there. Right. You know what? He wasn't shy, I guess. And he can't even be excused to have a thinking man's penis because the man was not a thinking man. By God, did he try but it hurt his little brain. Yeah.

You know, not everyone is cut out for intellectualism, and that's okay. He was Achilles. He's our himbo. He's our cronk. Oh my god, Achilles is cronk. He would be the one making spinach puffs. Alright, so how do we want to do this? We're just going to each...

both of them? I mean, I like the idea of us being able to talk simultaneously about why we love them and why they're pieces of garbage all in one. So, yeah. Do you like to begin by speaking on, I mean, yeah. On Achilles. Yeah. Okay. Tell me why he is both. He's my favorite. Well, yeah, but also, like, this is the Battle of the Bastards, so we can also be like, who is the bigger bastard? So. Who is the bigger? Easily Odysseus. Oh.

Well, we'll see. We'll see when it comes down to me. So tell me why you think Odysseus is the biggest bastard. I have many qualms with Odysseus. Mostly I am appalled by his ability to reason away his own faults and the things he does wrong in life.

That's because Odysseus does nothing wrong. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. There's something about, you know, he's gone for 20... Okay, so you know my whole thing is he is such a bad father that it's astounding to me. I literally will not deny that at all. But I also think that Telemachus is such a little piece of shit that I don't really feel for him all that much. But I think that's Odysseus' fault.

because he was not there. Well, surely, but at the same time, it also is simultaneously entirely Telemachus' fault because his father had literally no influence on his personality. Which means he got there all himself. Like, yes, feeling sorry for himself because his dad was not there, but ultimately...

but here's the thing right so Odysseus first of all he's like I'm gonna get out of this war I'm gonna do so by endangering my child first of all I'm gonna pretend to be mad and go towards him now I under well no okay well they put him in front of him this is me being mistaken they he stops for the love of the child fine okay yeah I'm gonna say okay but then he leaves and he could have only been gone for 10 years yeah okay but then he has to he just has to he gets out of his little mess and

he's leaving he just has to be like haha twas i odysseus who messed why he could he didn't need to take the credit he didn't and then because of that he was gone for another 10 years and then he shows up and the first time his son his memory his son has of him is him dick out killing people bad parenting

folder he's like oh boy i'm so sad i don't have a dad and suddenly odysseus is there like haha just unclothes himself and starts a mass murder that's wild yeah it's too much i'm trying to i'm trying to find some rebuttals but they're not coming to me unfortunately that is exactly what he did and i understand you know penelope absolutely knew it was odysseus odysseus all like

pretending to be some old man and he's all like the bed and blah blah blah and she's like okay you know that's so funny and in her head she's just like does he think he's tricking me truly like does this man think i'm stupid and the answer is probably yes yeah she's so tired better

Penelope deserved better. Justice for Penelope, but this isn't what we're here for. Why do you think Odysseus, not Odysseus, Achilles? What's wrong with Achilles? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I find him annoying is not a good enough argument. Yours was so prepared. No, I mean, the thing about Achilles, I guess,

you know he really oh gosh he's just annoying that's not enough

I mean, it's accurate, though, actually. Yeah. Right? Like, I just think he just... I just wish... I wanted him to be better. I guess I think, you know, he... No, Achilles, to me, it's just, you know, he... I'm struggling. I'm struggling with... Because I think I could... You can see this. I think...

I think that I could, you know, if I was a capitalist or a, if I was, if I was a fan of war or thought that it was in any way a valiant endeavor or something worthwhile of humanity's time, then I think I could make a great argument, which is I think what, what I was prepared for my argument to be. Yeah.

But then I keep, you know, then I, my brain thinks about it and I'm like, well, Achilles was bad because he didn't think of the greater good of all of the Greeks at the war. And as soon as he was, you know, bothered by, by the actions of Agamemnon, he just like went on a little petulant strike. And then I think, well, actually, no, that's because Achilles didn't actually see Achilles wasn't.

Compared to all the other Greeks, I think Achilles was maybe the least taken in by the Achaean propaganda. Like, the equivalent... Because in my head now, the Achaeans are just the West. Sorry, guys, but that's true. Both literally and figuratively, they are the West versus the East. But no, like, you know, if...

if they were actually doing something that was like worthwhile and, and Achilles holding them up, you know, was, was causing a problem to that, then I could argue that, uh,

He was a bastard. But I think what I'm doing is just agreeing with you immediately and making the show not... The episode's not even going to be 12 minutes, I guess, because I'm just like, well, you're right. Achilles was better. He's annoying and he was definitely a bit of like a petulant child a lot of the time. And he went crying to mom a lot. I think that Thedas could have raised a stronger young man. I think that she, you know, was strong.

so yeah I mean very yeah she's a mother of a boy oh

um but yeah no it's it's yeah it's funny uh talking about it like that because generally i do appreciate that achilles was like this war is stupid everything is stupid i'm only here because i am forced to be and because i'm like so good at this that you have to have me um but really he was like i don't really respect what you guys are doing so i don't give a shit and now do i love achilles

I'm actually going to now flip the switch. I love Achilles. I'll give you a reason. I think it's easier to think of him at his, his whole, like, I don't love what's happening. It's not necessarily the war. No, it's not for the greater good. I'm not going to pretend that he's doing that because he's like a good guy. It's because he's like, this is annoying for me personally. Yes. And he had, cause he had the prophecy basically, you know, you go, you die young. Um,

and everyone remembers you or you live to old age and no one will know you. Is that in the Iliad?

I don't remember. I don't think it is. And I only say that because I've always been really curious and I don't know offhand where that is, but I know it well. So anyway, I'm not questioning you. I'm just curious about it. He had a choice, I think. Here's why Achilles is the problem. He had a choice. Well, I can tell you why Achilles is the problem later. Don't worry. Okay.

And he did choose to go off and fight. And then when he stopped, it wasn't necessarily because he was like, oh, this isn't, I don't agree with what's happening. It's that he wasn't being given his dues. And that Agamemnon was taking his, what was it? The Geras, I think it was, his war prize, which was just a woman. Yeah, well, that's the thing. And now you're getting into that. And I'm like, oh, right. If I forget all of my feels about

Western propaganda and Western warmongering. And if I, you know, don't equate Agamemnon with US and Israel, then, then yeah, I mean, the idea that he, he,

he stopped helping all of his fellow Greeks because the woman he had rightfully enslaved, that's in air quotes, was removed from him, like was taken away. Then yeah, I mean, like, I don't, I don't think he has a great backbone. I don't think that he's particularly, you know, beneficial to humankind in that respect. Yeah.

What do I want to say in defense of him for this? I think though is that he sticks to what he knows how to do. Yeah. And I appreciate that about him. Odysseus does the same, I could say, actually. Odysseus is Athena's little pet rat. He is Athena's king of the dog. Well, Achilles is Thetis' little pet rat. Achilles is a nepo baby, unfortunately. So is Odysseus, but less so.

Odysseus was a plant. He's a plant. I think Odysseus is this like

I find him so interesting because of his mind, which is of course like his whole thing. But like, he also, I find him, he, I mean, he's my let's maybe I'll defend it in this way, which is that like, he is my problematic fave, not because I think he's in any way a good guy, but because I do find it really interesting the way that he, that he like ends up doing all of the wild shit that he does. Like,

you know with with Odysseus like we get to actually see kind of where you know quote-unquote intelligence can get you and I say like I say it that way because like I you know he he is incredibly smart he's incredibly manipulative and he does not seem to have even a shred of like

conscience involved in that you know like he is it's so self-serving and it's so just about proving himself to be like the smartest guy in the room and the most interesting guy in the room like I mean I I've I do I maintain I do still love Odysseus but definitely in the in the time since you know I I've

first started calling him my main man. Like I have grown in my opinions on him and I remain, I think I love him, but I think my love for him is perhaps like problematically tied with Sean Bean as Odysseus. And you know what? I think my love of Achilles is problematically tied with Brad Pitt. Absolutely. Cause if I actually do look at like, like,

I know for you, like the Odyssey is your favorite of them all. Yeah. Which is why I love Odysseus. It's like not because he was a good guy, but because I, I fucking love the Odyssey. And I, I love the Iliad personally. It is my favorite. I've never heard that from you. Really? I love it. I think it's really an interesting. Tell us the first line. Go. Sing, gotta sing of the rage of Achilles. No, no. In Greek. Oh my God. Give me a moment. Oh my God. Manon. It's on my hand. What's wrong with me?

I don't know. That's where I walk off. I get to the terrible wage, which... But, yeah, no, I love the Iliad because I think it's actually very anti-war. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, the Iliad is amazing for that. Yeah, and I think it's a very interesting...

psychological look, psychological... But just, like, look at human behavior in conflict and looking at both sides and you are given the good guys and they're not really shown to be wholesale good. And are they ever... Like, I'm... This is everything that I find to be the most interesting about the Iliad 2. But do you think that they're really ever...

suggested to be the good guy in any way or do you think that that is entirely coming from the you know the development of the like I mean the Iliad as being tied to the ancient Greece like I often think about whether there is kind of any explicit indication that we should be rooting for the Greeks in the Iliad or whether all of that is coming from our association with it being like a Greek text you know I haven't thought too much about that but that that

That does bring some like, yeah, that makes sense in my brain where it feels like. I don't think there's any moment where we're supposed to side with the Greeks, which is what I find to be most interesting about the alien. I don't know. I kind of like when Achilles fights the river. That was fun. Well, when Achilles fights the river, that's pretty badass. Did you know, and I'm going to say this having looked it up for my novel and then just wanting to make sure I'm actually like, right. So I could be wrong, but, um,

There's like, because I feel like in the Iliad, there are sort of interchangeable names for that river, right? It's Scamander, but it's also Xanthos. And because I think what I figured it out, or what I learned, and again, I use this for the novel, so then it kind of sits in a different point in my brain. But that Xanthos is the divine name for the river and Scamandros is the mortal name for the river, which I think is.

Just like a whole other level of interesting. Yeah, I like that. I trust you. Thank you. But more earlier, I think the thing is, I don't know necessarily if you can wholesale say Greeks or the Achaeans are the good guys, the Trojans are the bad guys. Because I think a lot of the times what we are shown is that these are two different camps and in each camp there are good and bad people and who have good and bad motives.

And I find that utterly fascinating when we're given such diversity and it's not, it's not so black and white and people who take it as black and white. I'm like, you've missed the whole thing. That's the thing. Yeah, exactly. Like there is no point where we are given a reason to, to, to think one is better than the other. And I think that, yeah, any kind of, any kind of desire to do that is coming out of either, you know, like like,

things from the Western world that are getting tied to it, but also just this, this very specifically North American opinion on war. And this idea that like, we always know best. And, you know, if the West wants to bomb the shit out of a country, they should say, thank you. Syria. Like,

like yay freedom for Syria except are they actually free or are they were they just now or is the west trying to fucking inflict all new things I'm so tired of existence laughing

Anyway, remember in the Iliad when the West went over and tried to colonize but ended up just fully destroying an Eastern civilization for no other reason than they felt like it? I hate to say that, but I think you're confusing the Iliad with the Odyssey. Or is it that it's both and everything the West has ever done since?

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well that's the thing i mean as soon as i said colonized that ties closer with the odyssey oh the odyssey is just you know the iliad the iliad rings true still because you know the the west does love to just go and absolutely just decimate just decimate entire cultures and countries in the middle east and then be like oh we don't actually want to stay here though like this

This is Arab land. We don't want it. We just want to like kill everyone who doesn't agree with us and call everyone else. Anyone tries to fight against us is terrorists for sure. Yeah. Like, oh, I'm sorry. You're resisting tyranny. That sounds an awful lot like terrorism to me.

I'm having ideas for a future series of the show that we should talk about off mic. I will say, to pull it back to where we were talking about how we know that these characters aren't great, but we still love them. And if there is any good characters, this is not about, this episode is not about him. I will defend Achilles, even though I know he has problems. But how great is Nestor?

How great is Antilochus, his son? That is the hero. That is the hero of the Alma. He died young, so we didn't actually have to see him go crazy and do some stupid shit. He gets to be young and good for eternity because he died. I mean, and though Nestor really, you know, of all people, he has got a lot of nuance, that guy. Nestor's a good father, except for the Odyssey when he's all like, hey, remember that better son? Okay.

to all his other kids although I had a very good conversation with a professor about that and she she made some interesting points where is is that um a cultural thing to do with mourning I think it was something like that where because this is is this just how you remember somebody and so would his sons have actually would his other sons have actually been like oh my god we're never going to live up to Antilochus or is this the proper way to

to honor him yeah yeah but beyond that um uh yeah until it gets good guy nestor so tired let the old man retire truly the man has seen enough he's too old to be on the battlefield

But Odysseus, okay. What more can I say to Bacchus? You don't need to. I mean, I can talk about why he's a piece of shit too. You're like, actually, you know what? Kili's not that bad. I'm like, let me come in and...

I mean, yeah, I think if we, I mean, I walked into this knowing Odysseus would win. I'll be honest about that. Odysseus is a bigger piece of shit. Oh, yeah, no, not it. I was about to be like, excuse me? It's a battle of the bastards, Michaela. He is the biggest bastard. Because I also think similarly to Antilochus, when you phrase it that way, that Achilles didn't have the chance to go on to be a bigger bastard. Yeah.

I think, I mean, I think maybe if we look to his son, if we look to the actions of Neoptolemus. Yeah. Right. Like we get, we get kind of like, I wonder, you know, about speculating whether if given the opportunity Achilles would have turned out more like that or like, where, where is that mentality coming from in Neoptolemus? Cause he's such a piece of shit. Who was his mother again?

Was it an Amazon? No, Neoptoleus' mom is the woman on that island on Skiros where he was hiding out. In drag. Yeah, because he pretended to be a girl but also still managed to sleep with her and have a baby. This is men. It's just men. He had ethical relations with her. LAUGHTER

Or someone you know on Hinge in the lower mainland. We love it. I need to get that as like a tramp stamp. Yeah, so wait. So then his... Okay, so his mom... They're both... I know. There's not a lot... Yeah, like the thing about Neoptolemus generally is that also...

You know, like, I mean, admittedly, I haven't read the play that features him. I would like to very much. Is that the Fall of Troy? No, the Fall of Troy. I mean, I've read that. That's the epic from the Roman period. And by I have read that, I mean, I read it on the podcast for everyone to hear.

But Neoptolemus is heavily in that for sure. But I'm talking, so earlier sources, he's in Andromache. He's in Andromache.

And I always forget that that's the plot of Andromache. It's after she has literally been living in his kingdom as his, like, war prize. Yeah, and they have, like, a kid together. And then he has Hermione as his new wife. And, like, that's what the play is about. So, anyway, we have to cover that soon. Okay.

I've had plans to like put a whole spreadsheet together of all the plays we've done and have yet to do. Oh, please. Yeah. Yeah. No fair. That's the story of everything. Yeah. No, it's so Neoptolemus. We don't have a ton of like actually like any kind of archaic or let alone pre archaic sources on him.

as a character because everything you know is lost so yeah he's heavily in the fall of troy where he's a piece of garbage and again i haven't read andromache but at the same time like so like every other play like we have to we have to assume or we have to understand andromache as reception so like we still we still don't know what neoptolemus was imagined as you know in the ancient world or in that you know that earliest form of the ancient world that we're talking about with iliad

So I wonder, but like, yeah, like if given the chance, like just how terrible would Achilles have been? Certainly his reaction to Patroclus' death is not a great indicator for like how he would have handled like further issues in his life. I was hoping that would come up.

Really? You thought maybe that in a discussion about Achilles we might not mention the time he went absolutely fucking wild and started killing everybody, including arguably the least problematic and most moral character in the entire epic? I'm just writing something down because for some reason, you know me and my obsession with looking at fathers and sons in myths.

I never thought of Achilles and Neoptole. That's like the worst, most terrifying terror show of a terror.

I know, but I still think Odysseus is a telemachy. The problem is they never met. Yeah. They also never met. Like, for all, I mean, you're all your complaints about Odysseus as a father. Achilles never even met Neoptolemus. Yeah, but then on that hand, just then Neoptolemus has to live up to this idealized image of who he is. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That kid was set up for failure. Why can't I spell his name right now? Neoptolemus. I don't care. Lomas, I guess. Oh, yeah.

Achilles' kid. That one guy. Yeah. You said something. No, but you said something about, yeah, what, I mean, what, maybe this is really the Battle of the Bastards with Neoptolemus versus himself, but like... Neoptolemus versus Telemachus? He's in for Neoptolemus.

Yeah, well, I mean, God, they're both obnoxious in different ways. Again, Telemachus is obnoxious in the way that, you know, he, well, I guess they both want to live up to their fathers. Yeah, yeah. No, they were both great men. Well, they were Telemachus sucks at it. Okay, you know what, actually, maybe this is a more interesting, like, way to take this conversation. But like,

What? Yeah. But Neoptolemus, no, Neoptolemus versus Telemachus as like the most broken sons from the Greek side of the Trojan War. Like, right. But like for real, like also they, they should have been a similar age, which as I'm saying that, that makes absolutely no sense because Neoptolemus or Telemachus is like 20 when Odysseus gets back. But that, but it just, he would have been like 10. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, because Neoptolemus was born when Achilles was hiding out on that island, which presumably was only for a year or two. So he would have been born around the same time as Telemachus. But then he would have been, yeah, 10 when he had to come help them in the war, which doesn't make any sense. He's just a crazy little child. You know, it's almost like the oral tradition was not trying to figure out chronologically accurate birth dates. Oh, so, so.

Something interesting, because this also makes me think of, you know, like the Suns. Because I was talking with a professor about a thing that I'm not going to go into too much detail about. But we were talking about Odysseus and Telemachus, and I was having my issues with them. And then she was... Because they're both great guys who did awesome things. Yeah. And then she was telling me about how Telemachus is often held in contrast to Orestes. How Agamemnon...

Clytemnestra and Orestes are actually the opposite of Odysseus, Penelope, and Telemachus. You know, like Clytemnestra is the anti-Penelope, Agamemnon is the anti-Orestes, but Orestes is the better son.

he is what interesting he is what telemachus should be what he is doing is what telemachus should be striving for yeah so that is interesting so if we're looking at sons telemachus the optolemus let's throw a resties in there because that poor boy yeah well yeah he was set up for failure if anyone was anyone was and he did his best he did his best

His best could have been forgiving his mother instead of killing her, but whatever. Yeah, but then his father's shade sort of come from, regardless, he was doomed. Yeah, well, I guess a woman's shade is a little less threatening. Well, that's just because the Athenians came in and they were like, call Athena and let's do a trial. No, he's Gucci. He's fine. Yeah.

That's retconning. That's reception. That's... Orestes was doomed. Oh, yeah. No, that's such a great... But that's such a great reminder about the ways that every time we have to look at a play for any kind of source on the mythology, we have to remember the ways in which it's reception. Because, yeah, like the most famous forms of Orestes' story are inextricably tied with Athenian democracy. So if you...

separate that and you think oh actually Orestes' story is like many hundreds of years older than Athenian democracy then like what you know what would that have actually looked like he would have just been hounded by the Furies forever I think that's exactly what it is I think he was just doomed regardless but that's you know the little curse coming into play like that's just that family but at this point I think then at that at that point we could think of that as more like

um the you know the son is now like the the innocent at the far end of his family's crimes where the son has could have done really good in life could have done good things but because of the things his forebearers did he is the one who pays the price for their big problems um versus looking at

tell Marcus and Odysseus Odysseus does all these wonderful things and now his son is living in his shadow in a way that he can never reach it yeah and then Neoptolemus well he just overshadows his father in the most horrifying way if your shadow is blood

Then Neoptolemus overshadows his father. Look, Achilles was good at one thing and he really committed to it. Yeah, and Neoptolemus was like, my dad was good at this one thing. If I'm ever going to live up to him, I have to be even better at this one thing. And it just turns out, aw shucks, this one thing was killing people. Yeah, and then so the next question would be,

There are some traditions where Neoptolemus kills a Sienax. I think it's always a disease. Okay, so here's another dissonance. He throws a baby at a wall. I

I know he's a baby off a wall. He's like, you know what? Look at this little babe. Off you go. So, but here, if we're talking reception, if we're going that deep, all as far as I recall, all forms of the story of who throws Astyanax off the walls of Troy are coming from a considerably later period.

I'm trying to think of pottery. Prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. I very well could be wrong. This is how we both have not done preparation. That's the fun of this. This is a holiday episode, you guys. This is both us going from our obsessive memories of both of these characters and these texts. I still think it's kind of a problem if you throw a baby off a wall just saying. I mean, I would like to be put on the record and saying I'm not saying it's a good thing when you threw the baby off the wall.

I am famously not a fan of children, but I would like to be clear that I don't ever condone throwing them off a wall. I don't mind children as long as I can give them back to their parents when they start screaming. Well, that's where you're a better woman than me. I'll give them abundance and candy. My uterus never once gives... No, well, yeah, I know. You're lucky. But I'm saying mine doesn't even give me the desire to pick one up in the first place.

I don't know. There's like a certain age of babies where they're like, just like stuffies more than people. Oh, you like them younger? I like it when they don't talk. Ew, I only... And they smile at you. I don't think that children are worth... And I'm like, get the fuck away from me. I don't think that children are worth my time until they can have a conversation with me. And I said that and I'm keeping it. I said it. Kids have weird... And I believe it. They say weird shit. Although, honestly, though...

I'll take a video of a kid being weird, but I don't want to interact. Kids do say the funniest shit though. America's funniest home videos was for. Yeah. There was a whole, there was a whole show. That joke was sitting there waiting for me. And it was kids say the darndest things. Like,

wonder what that reference was for a very select few of my listeners because most of you are too young probably don't remember what that was i feel like it's ringing a bell for me i'm not even that much younger than you no i'm not the same generation no i got a man who's funny some videos mikaela six years does a lot though is it six years yeah you're not oh i know you're 30 and i'm 36

I thought you were younger. I know, because my skin... I am new to you. I absolutely... It's funny because it's not true, but I know I don't... It's the middle of winter. Your skin doesn't have to look good. I also just moved to the land of the dry. I'm trying to adapt. My lungs are not there yet. No. Oh my god. Okay, let's get back. Let's just return with us laughing and saying...

Achilles was garbage and Odysseus was worse. To the listeners, we did just cut out a bit. And now we're wrapping it up. But I honestly... Could I say one last thing? Please. Odysseus is like...

ancient columbus i was literally just about to be like i didn't get a chance to say how problematic he was um no yeah i i think i mean i love i love the odyssey so much as this as this like piece of art yeah and like as this as this piece like and so and i do love odysseus but again i think that is so deeply tied to sean bean as odysseus

And also those like the remnants, though, the remnants of when I learned to love these texts because the Greeks were the most brilliant and we love everything they did. And of course, they were right. And the West and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So there's like a little bit of tie there. But yeah, if I...

Look at the Odyssey, you know, now, and I've always, I've always been, I would, I would like to think like pretty open-minded about that stuff. But now over the last couple of years, just with the warmongering of the West, like I just no longer can see anything the way I used to. And the Odyssey is, it's just wild. It is Odysseus is Columbus, but if Columbus is,

just set everything on fire and then was like, all right, I'm not going to stay. You guys, you can actually, you can just try to fix what I just did. I actually have somewhere to be. So like, I have a wife and child at home. Like, I don't want to defend Columbus, but at least the guy fucking stayed, you know, he committed to his atrocities to the chagrin of my people. Unfortunately,

one time I didn't want someone to commit to the bit. Columbus didn't come to Canada, if that's any consolation. Still a dumbass pigeon. Your direct people were more affected by the British. And the French. To be fair, there was no border till y'all came.

this is actually my i could yeah my people straight we straddle the border back and forth and actually we loved we love to go for a little wander up and down we had training efforts all the way into those big ass lakes yeah those big ass lakes you knew what to do with them with an island with a lake on it with an island on it i mean i drove around lake superior for the first time and now i have a full-blown respect yeah for the lakes

It has fucking waves. Like, waves. Did I send you videos? Oh, my God.

oh my god there was we were there during like the wildest wind the lake superior looked wilder than dallas road which is like the wildest beaches on vancouver island and that's like legit the sea and we were driving by it being like holy shit this is like what you see on dallas after an earthquake yeah it to in in asia and we go down to the dallas road and be like i'd like to see the waves and that was fucking lake superior

Yeah, yeah. No, those lakes are wild. They are...

just they have they have done damage they have done damage in the way the sea has done damage yeah yeah I mean they're equivalent especially to an ancient people and like to the indigenous people of this region like it's equivalent to the sea no doubt oh yeah yeah well what a very deeply North American way to wrap this up but in a good way I would that's I'm saying North America now in a good way um because we're talking about the people who were here before

before the Odysseus of modern colonization came through pigeon man what you don't Columbus what did you say I call him pigeon oh is that what it is well it means like dove a pigeon in Latin so I just call him a pigeon that's I mean I respect that but I think it might be unkind to pigeons

Pigeons deserve more respect than Columbus. Yeah, but I think it's funny. Oh, no, 100%. Anyways. Odysseus wins. Odysseus wins, absolutely. He is, I mean, again, arguably worse than Columbus. And I think that this will not be the last time. And Achilles. And Achilles.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, if, I mean, Columbus is obviously worse than Achilles. Achilles wasn't doing any colonizing. He just really had strong emotions and he used his sword to get them across his spear, more likely. To give one last defense to Achilles, I know we're wrapping this up, but to one last defense, he does, like, he does...

I just, the first book and he's all like, I'm going to kill this man. And Athena's like, maybe don't use your words. Don't be rational. And he's like, all right, I can do that. Listen to here. Yo, why no bitch face coward. You know what? He's, he's still our boy. He's, he knows himself. Yeah. He knows himself. He's consistent. And I appreciate that about him.

Well, this has been too much fun, not least because now we're going to have to chat offline about a whole ass series about the Odyssey as colonialist propaganda. In a good way, though, like in a fun way, listeners. It'll be fun, I promise. And also...

We have to look closer at the Iliad as a piece of anti-war. Yeah. I really want to do that. If there was ever a time to do that, it's now. But until then, I'm going to read the credits aloud with Makayla sitting here for the first time ever. And again, that's weird. I'll just stare at you. And note to the listeners, because I've caught it afterwards every time, but when we're doing this live, I'm not going to say her old last name. Are you still saying my old last name?

But I catch it. I say it because it comes out of me immediately and then I catch it. That's so fair. Let's Talk About Myths, baby, is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pengoish is the Hermes to my Olympians, the producer who's producing the shit out of this. Listen to the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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