Battle of the Bastards: Achilles v Odysseus w/ Hermes Michaela
Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! Greek & Roman Mythology Retold
Deep Dive
Why do Liv and Michaela consider Achilles and Odysseus problematic favorites?
Both Achilles and Odysseus are seen as flawed characters who exhibit problematic behavior in the ancient sources. Achilles is often portrayed as a whiny, petulant figure, while Odysseus is a manipulative, self-serving individual who causes significant destruction. Despite their flaws, Liv and Michaela have a deep appreciation for these characters, acknowledging their complexity and the reasons behind their problematic actions.
What are some of the key criticisms of Odysseus?
Odysseus is criticized for his manipulative nature, his ability to rationalize his own faults, and his lack of good parenting. He leaves his son Telemachus for 20 years, and when he returns, his first interaction with his son involves him committing mass murder. Additionally, his self-serving actions, such as taking credit for his role in the war, extend his absence, causing further harm to his family.
Why does Liv find Achilles annoying?
Liv finds Achilles annoying because he often behaves like a petulant child, going on strikes when he doesn't get his way and frequently crying to his mother. She also criticizes his lack of consideration for the greater good of the Greeks during the war, as he prioritizes his own grievances over the collective effort.
What does Michaela appreciate about Achilles?
Michaela appreciates that Achilles was aware of the stupidity of the war and only participated because he was forced to and because he was exceptionally skilled. She admires his honesty about not loving what was happening around him and his commitment to sticking to what he knew how to do, even if it meant being a bit of a petulant child at times.
How does Liv view the Iliad as a piece of literature?
Liv considers the Iliad to be an anti-war text that provides a deep psychological look at human behavior in conflict. She appreciates that the narrative doesn't portray the Greeks as wholly good or the Trojans as wholly bad, but instead shows a nuanced view of both sides, highlighting the complexity of human motives and actions.
Why does Michaela think Odysseus is a bigger bastard than Achilles?
Michaela believes Odysseus is a bigger bastard because of his manipulative and self-serving nature, which leads to significant harm and destruction. She argues that while Achilles may have been annoying and petulant, Odysseus' actions are more calculated and harmful, making him the bigger piece of human garbage.
What does Liv think about the relationship between Achilles and his son Neoptolemus?
Liv finds the relationship between Achilles and his son Neoptolemus to be a terrifying example of a father-son dynamic gone wrong. She notes that Achilles never even met his son, who then went on to overshadow his father in the most horrifying way by becoming even more violent and destructive.
How does Michaela view the Odyssey in relation to modern colonialism?
Michaela views the Odyssey as a precursor to modern colonialism, comparing Odysseus to figures like Columbus. She sees Odysseus as someone who sets everything on fire, destroys cultures, and then leaves without staying to deal with the consequences, much like how the West has historically colonized and then abandoned regions.
- Achilles' petulance and disregard for the greater good vs. Odysseus' manipulative nature and questionable parenting
- The influence of personal biases and modern perspectives on interpreting ancient texts
- The complex and nuanced nature of heroism and villainy in Greek mythology
Shownotes Transcript