Jens Stoltenberg: Navigating global security, crisis leadership, and staying calm under pressure
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Hi everyone, i'm thrilled to be here with the yen stoltenberg, who just finished off the as a security general in nature.

And he was.

So i'm having here you know a book which um you wrote uh which came out eight years ago, which basically covered the period until ten years ago. And it's got a beautiful picture of you on the on on the frontier. But just what are them one of the most important changes in the world since that came out?

The most important changes, at least related to um my task, my responsibility ie s in atto, is that uh the world has become more dangerous. Uh the good that's the bad news. The good news is that nato has become stronger to protect close to one billion people, of course are many old changes but but but seen from a secret specked, we have now a full scale war in europe.

Uh, we have a new very devastating conflict in the midwest riscal escalation. And we have a significant to more uh global rivalry between great powers united states, china um and then we have cyd hybrid drive tests as a good security. So so fundamentally we live in a more unpredictable, more of a dangerous world and done for decades .

if we cover some of these points here. So how do you think the ukraine an situation will end?

What's the most like wars are by nature extremely unpredictable. Dc, so therefore I will be very careful predicting how that will end. Um but um um of course we all want this war to end. The chAllenge is, uh the quickest way to end the war is to lose the war um but that will not lead to peace that will lead to occupation of uh ukraine and ukrainy will not be a survey independent moca tic nation in european and all IT will be a country control by a moscow. So if you want the war to end in a way where millions ukraine and still can live in the free democratic, then we need to convince press and putting that he will not a win on the battlefront, that he has to sit down and negotiate, agree uh, a solution where ukraine uh can still be a survey n uh democratic c nation um uh and the only and I don't believe that we can change putin mind, but I think we can change his callers mean that don't think we can change his ambition, his goal of trying to control ukraine but I think that my providing military support ukraine we can um ensure that the cost of achieving that goal for russia is so high that they will accept a solution where ukraine provides involved with another .

the decision of um not giving uh more offensive weapons, which was uh kind of renewed lately. What do you think about that?

Well as nato allies have delivered a lot of also offensive weapons, the reality is that of course we have gradually changed uh h over the years. I remember when I came to twenty eighteen, then some are the united states to kingdom um uh uh couple canada day h brothers media support, some some training but hardly little weapons uh IT was a big discussion influences about uh jawans the antitank weapons which has proved extremely important on the butterfield uh uh in ukraine. But then off and I think actually we should have done more before the full scale invent in twenty two um but off the twenty nine to two the full called invasions to Alice have delivered much more military support than but than put expected and onest also we expected. Um we have big discussions on the whether we were going to deliver battle tanks now and I live uh a lot of advanced more than battle.

Thanks including U S rams, tx european and or german leper tanks um with deliver advanced a defence systems patridge with deliver uh long range h also cruse missiles uh from for instance the kingdom and france uh and then also f sixteenth so did scale and the call IT of this uh uh a military support is much bigger than anyone was able to force uh uh just a few years ago uh I think the the dilema which has which continues to be discussed and alas is to what the extent will should be ukraine to use all these uh weapons against military targets inside russia um and and allies have different policy。 Um some of allies have said um there are no restrictions um except for uh also heading into national law uh others have imposed home reactions on the use of a weapons deep into russia. What do you think I think we need to remember this is that this is a more aggression.

Russia has attacked another country that's a plate violation of national law um according to international law, ukraine has the right for self defense. Uh self defense includes the right to strike legitimate military targets on the territory of the r meaning russia so therefore i've argued for uh losing up these reactions uh and the many allies have done so. And then there is an ongoing conversation, a among eight dollars, exactly to what the extent they should remove all the restrictions when IT comes to hitting a legitimate to talk television. If.

uh, ukraine have to receive more territory, is that more likely to happen, you think?

I'm extremely careful even though i'm now stepped down a sector general to to in a way to speculate because IT can be sel fulfilling profits. If you start to say that we believe that your crayon has to do this and that or satory, then of course I can boost morale directors and reduced the moral of the ukrainian even though I know that I would speak in behalf of nine to and more I think matter we all say uh h when he comes to what we believe that ukraine uh uh also may be forced to um fundamentally IT is only of the ukraine's that can decide uh what are acceptable conditions. They are paying the highest Price.

They are sacrifice uh people uh uh every day to to fight for the freedom and again, I think that the path to peace is to convince in that he can not win on the battlefield. Ah there is a very close relationship between what happens on the butterfield and what can happen that on the negotiating table. So if you want some kind of acceptable solution where ukraine will remain as a independence, then minter staying for the back the field is the way to convince, putting that that he has to accept that then of course, it's for the ukrainians to decide, uh, how much they are well to to give up to to to achieve peace um I I met many finish voltages of the loss of players since fin and now has joined nato.

I think we even have .

the president and you actually right and and I and I like to be the president of of winning. They are always, they are often. I know many other finish politicians have have in a White share with us the history of england. Um it's different from ukraine, but there are there are some paddles. They were invaded by their army one thousand hundred and thirty nine um and they're able to, as a small country to to to inflict much more heavy losses and paying on the invading russian or soviet forces um so the red army didn't achieve their goals but to end the war the final had to accept to give up to see the uh earlier ten percent of the terra and the second biggest city Violet which is not plot of russia uh but of course uh in the return gained borders and security that has losted four decades I not saying that this is the part little for a membership member ship.

Um what was the what's been the most important advice you have given your successor remark?

First of all, i'm very careful giving and advice because I I just don't think that you know people are leaving a position be to especially in public to explicit on the advice and on I have great trust in is greatly that he has been promised for I think it's fourteen years uh and of course just to lead coalitions to fine compromises I think is the best way to qualify to become sector gentle to know how to reconcile different views um but but cannot hire that of course the most important task for any to keep this big uh uh family uh together and we are thirty two allows uh and we don't always agree on all issues so his main task is to ensure that despite these differences that we are able to um to to rally around the court task to protect and .

defendant child you have an over the last few years become more vote about china um what are the concerns you .

have first like to say that read that book I I know I will say great believing in china um and I was extremely impressed I I remember this china are also in eighty five or eighty six or at least the number of eighties and I works extremely impressed um by the changes that things show being did and how they were opening up the economy uh how the the economic growth of china changed the world part before the people in china.

Uh h lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, also actually important for the rest of the world um by creating a big new market by by providing lot of products ah the global economy nor we benefited, we sold a lot of energy, oil, gas uh into the chinese market of the global market and then we bought a lot of uh things from china and good Price. Uh so that has been a great success story for china not and for to the world. Um uh then I can not say exactly when my views started to change, but I remember I was very disappointed the way china acted when in which noble peace pass committee awarded the peace Price to a chinese student uh think two thousand and ten uh and then they actually posed heavy sanctions against the norway and behaved very as they wanted us to apologize.

Uh and that behavior what's quite shocking. And then of course, after I arrived in night and over last year, if we have seen a much more um a certain of china um trying to dominate control the house china sea, they have lost actually the internal court in the hug so what they do there is a violation international law um um threatening neighbors uh threatning type on uh and china is investing heavily in new advanced weapons, including nuclear weapons without any transparency and then of course in ukraine what we see there is that security is not uh regional security global because china is the main neighbor of russia. Aggressive war against grain, uh by providing the uh micro electronics the components uh for russians to build the bombs on the first starts they are using uh in the ukraine.

So the closing closing limit within russia and china also, of course, is on the reasons why we are concerned. They add one more thing and that is that we don't as when I was sick or nato, I remember very well that we didn't. We need to say that chinese an enemy or another story.

We need to engage with china on issues related to climate change, that they had to be part of global economy, of course, uh and and um in future of flows on arms control but we but we have to be not is important to be not naive and not make the same mistakes as we did. For instance, we come to russia being over depend on gas from the shot. We should not be all depend on specific commodities or technology from china. Fact that there .

are stronger and strongly links between the autocrats in the world, one of the one of the implications for the western world .

that we have to be uh together when we see that the author ATS are more and more aligned and then of course that's potty. We meaning point to na thirty two nations on uh both south atlantic but also with other countries which at least don't be don't want to be part of kind authentic alliance. And again, ukraine is to perhaps the the clares example um a russia is responsible for aggression.

The main providers of weapons and and enables of that war is north korea, iran and china, uh, and and and is not terrific. This this is, this is real and makes a difference on the battlefield, and also also see how russia and china exercise together also on japan. Uh, uh, I know the parts of the world. So so this is really a global picture that makes IT even more important, of course, they to always stand together, but also that to work with partners all around the world, including south kojak an and many other countries.

how do you read them? The activities around, I want you .

now well, we see that china again again repeat uh different threats uh, both in restrict but also with these very high profile a exercise and that will be uh extremely dangerous and under under attrition is is dangerous. Therefore IT is important that we that military forces not use to change to this coal.

Uh in the room type uh there are millions of people living there um um nato ali recognize that uh in norway, uh recognized that there is on china ah but we also uh supporting idea of people having the run to live in a democratic and open society. We had the same idea with home home that was two uh two systems in one nation that one kong should be some kind of democratic part of china. Uh, that didn't lost for a very long. And of course IT will be a strategy of millions of people living that on experience, something similar to what the people of hong kong has experience. Last stairs, 嗯。

how should the business leaders and we as investors think about engaging with china?

This is extremely difficile question, uh, but I think just to be aware that all the lambs and to be conscious h about those the lambs helps uh uh I I have been and I continue to be a strong believer in free trade. And most of my political life I really worked for free trade agreements including uh, the open european market. And I believe that globalization, free trade benefits us all.

Having said that, freedom is more important than free trade. And sometimes you have to recognize that h you cannot have free trade if IT uh if the cost is that, you actually undermine freedom. And one example is russian gas. Uh, until twenty twenty two, many european governments are meant that buying gas for era was a commercial issue IT IT was not a political issues. Politicians just stay out of a commercial deal between commercial companies in europe with commercial companies in the induction that proved very wrong because to buying us from russia is not the commercial so it's much more than a commercial is a IT IT was a security vulnerability that um that just a utils ed after uh the false elevation of ukraine, they tried to converse european allies from supporting ukraine e by using the us. And we should not repeat the same mistakes with uh with the with china.

It's quite amazing that we ended up in that situation actually with the russian gas.

Yeah yeah IT wasn't amazing. But I think we need to remember that IT was a quite common european view that that we that that that trade with that all kind of trade reduce a was a good thing. And again, I have been parked apart of that that view. I have been in favor of trade with drug.

I've been very trade with china with very little restrictions, and gradually I I saw how, especially russia, but also the song that china has used trade as a political tool, and therefore the politicians have responsibility, lies to put in some regulations, laws to sure that we don't make them really big mistakes. But within those relations, there has also be judgment by each an individual private commercial company and and the darling I said the the extremes will not work. We cannot have absolutely open and free trade. There has to be some security uh uh considerations uh part of those decisions uh but on the other the hand we cannot I isolated china so to find this baLance where we have some trade, some the economic relations but without making itself too vulnerable I I cannot give exact answer but the dial between government's uh companies on how to find this baLance. Is the bayway best way to try to at least find the best way forward together.

Last hot pot um the list. How do you think that will play out?

It's difficult to predict ukraine, even harder to predict the least. Um um um what we see now is a tragedy um um it's dangers, um there is no further escalation uh and especially with their own um which has these stablest the region for many years and continue to do so um as in the reason, I think it's important to remember that in one hundred and ninety three we had the also like cord, which has been heavily critics on since for many years but I still believe that that's in a way the only way that can create some kind of lasting solution. That's a two state solution.

You need a state for israelis and need palestinian, the state, palestinians. It's not easy. But the alternative to will continue as we do now is absolutely not viable. Uh, so therefore, sometimes crisis creates the momentum to find new solutions. Uh, and hopefully at least one thing that can come out of what we see in the meeting is now is a new effort to uh uh find a two state solution.

Um there are some voices that want the E. U. To play a more important part in defense policy. What is your viewed?

My view is that if it's done in the right is very good, if it's on the wrong way is very bad. So the right way yes， the right way that you should do more. And and and they have started to step up uh um when he comes to, for instance, strengthened the defense industry, meaning uh over common defragmenting the eupeptic fense industry um to increase defense spending unto unto general strength and eupeptic h defences meaning that h that also strength nato um uh uh ninety six percent of the people living in the european union they live in the natural country so that will be more of the same what is not good is to create alternative and compete in structures uh and to and to underpin this idea of the european union or defending.

But can you see that some people are in favor is given the U S. position?

Yes, but I think that that's dangerous uh I I I think that any a attempt to in the way uh split or divide you to from north amErica will end demand our security and because we live in the more dangerous world and and if we go alone we will be weaker and more vulnerable.

Um and the european union cannot defend europe and eighty percent of nato defense expenditure comes from non E U nature allies that's of course united states, also canada, a big allie. Uh I do not do kindle the second biggest h defense spender in uh in in nato uh but also uh this is about geography. Turkey in in the south extreme important for fighting ISIS fighting terrace m boarding iraq and and syria in the north, north in island, perhaps not the biggest nail ice, but very important for the transatlantic ink.

So so so geography and resources makes a clear that these that e you should develop some kind of independent events will just undermine, uh, and duplicate a the nature structures. And the nature structures has the north amErica together, uh, is the only way to defend, uh, uh, europe. We are together. We are fifty percent of the worlds most and fifty percent of the worlds economic might. So just stand to get there, not america.

Be safe. You good space, you know.

cases.

Well, the world is so complex.

right?

What's going on in space from my welfare point of view.

So first I think what do you see is that is more and more uh web ization of space and and what happens in space, space matters more and more for what going on on the earth uh as obviously communications G P S uh um but uh a cyber uh and of course targeting a lot of military Operations in ukraine or depend on the satellite in in in space and and any future conflict space a will be important。 Uh what we also can see is that again, rush on china are developing capabilities that can actually the used as so offensive weapons, uh, and this is a dangers uh uh development and again, the there is a need for transparency, that is the need for uh, arms control uh, and there is a need also for for allies and partners to stand together to these issues together and .

in a way a bit related to that. Ai, what are the issues surrounding that? When he comes to warfare, some people uh in amErica say that we should build A I into everything we doing to all the weapons, all the car is everything right to beat the chinese in this kind of fight? But how do you see A I impact for?

So I I have to meet that I have read uh and and listen to many experts uh uh explaining about A I and and I still start to full and understand the full implications. But I think what is obvious that the A I has and will even more so in the future change nature of warfare, perhaps as fundamental industry revolution did.

Because you have to understand that if you go to, if you go to the from, from, from sea, such an Apollo, the soldiers could actually participate. The the soldiers participating, uh, in the roman empire, I report of the roman empire, actually make a difference on the battlefield. Uh, doing the point ic car uh because they had they had the technology that as he was applicable all at that time, then from the panic war to the first war, everything, first world war, everything changed with the with the industrial revolutionary being also implemented into warfare. I think we see something similar now, uh, a fundamental shift where we don't fully understand autonomous systems, facial recognition, Jones cyber h attacks I by using also ai uh IT has the potential change in welfare so much that it's very hard to full uh understand uh um uh the full implications we have as always seen IT on the butterfield in uh ukraine。 Uh it's not to seek that some of the drones and surveilLance systems that nate Operates also uses A I to process information so this is this is only started, but we are only seen the beginning of fundamental .

change of the the nobel Prices that the last week in chemistry and physics uh you know have A I on the bindings so he's really changing um a lot of things. Um but the fact that we regulate A I so much in europe is that holding back of our events .

capabilities so far, I have not heard the defense industry complaining about that. But but IT maybe uh and and and I think the chAllenge the every time we we we approaching the technologies is that in one way, we want ethical standards, we want transparency, we want regulations to prevent the misuse of important technology.

On the other other hand, if you only impose restrictions on ourself being in the europe or north american europe, western lions, but, but, but our other cities, they have no restrictions, then of course we can just make ourself more vulnerable. Fundamentally, this is very much the same. The lamas we have faced with nuclear weapons, for nuclear weapons are extremely in devastate, in potential to really uh uh destroy a human life in the way we know IT today.

Uh so in that way it's very easy to be against nuclear weapons. And and and I would like to have a world without any new nuo weapons. The chAllenge is that as long as they exist, I think we are safer when we have nuclear weapons to the turn the other side of using those weapons against those.

So unilateral, this arment is dangerous. Uh, what IT is good, and what you should strive for his baLanced, transparent, uh uh uh multiple oral, uh uh once control that applies for youtube weapons. But the problem is also applies for all all the technologies .

for ince's ai cyber well in one way .

are touched upon IT, because cyber and A I is in the linked and and IT just demonstrates that uh that warfare conflicts can take place in many domains in in at all times we have anyway, air, sea and land. Uh, but now we have space as the domain and cyber.

But do we have strong enough of offensive capabilities? And are we just going under attack? And no.

again, these are sensitive issues and I know that some some countries are looking to speak too much about that. But but but but I I know and is not a secret that nato allies also have uh, offensive capabilities. Um I think we call the national effects, but the only different word for the same and I have the the very interesting experience when I actually saw uh in one of the ald countries uh how they used I was actually in the conomo on center cybercrime on center where they actually used cyber offense of a bit is to attack ISIS.

This was back into is sixteen or seventeen uh and that was extremely effective and how how they used uh uh N A doa used cyber to take down the cybernetic ork um uh of ice in iin ian and syria uh then of course, uh, that's props the most, not the most advanced advance you can face. But of course there are offensive cape ticals. So I bris now in the ain as L C.

land. And the older domains are, uh, it's domain and and the two global domain, there are some problems. One promised that attribution is harder in hyper. Um so one of the first chAllenge to face with a with a full ledge cyberattack is to actually decide who is attacking you.

Um um uh the second um the other chAllenge is that is that um um is IT is a much more, much more blurred line between conflict and non conflict. When when when do you have to trigger article five? When do you have to declare war? Uh h when you have a cyber tack is because cyberpunk something that goes on almost every day in different ways. When do you post the treasured or something which which will trigger full response from from the armed forces, from from props or or the lines so the french .

statement, cmon soul, said worries too important to be left of generals and you have pervaded this by saying businesses too serious to be left to business leaders alone what do you what do you mean by that?

I mean by that that um I believe in free trade, I believe in private business, but I believe that um some of the issues related to commercial stations are too important to we left to commercial decisions or considerations alone and again, we are touch upon the the most recent examples, gas from from russia or uh over dependence on uh commodities from china or the or uh the export of key technologies from us to authors.

Arian powers IT may be a good business deal but IT will be uh undermining or dangers for our own uh own security or for instance allow alter arian powers uh to control critical infrastructure. Again maybe good business deals but make us but make but may potentially make us vulnerable. So this is what I mean by uh it's too important to be left to business uh uh alone.

A U S. Venture capital firms have ramped up um efforts within defense, uh but we haven't really done the same in year. But even though nature has uh, venture capital ARM, right yeah how how do you say this?

I M well I think that we need um we need to invest more in our defense instant and um and we also need to realize that we need a venture capital. We need uh innovation.

And that's reason why nature, again i'm not step down after, will follow up on this uh h has stepped up uh the efforts to work with private business uh to ensure that we maintain the technological edge, which has been the benefit of uh western countries for decades, have to ensure our security had the most adone technologies that is not so obvious anymore, especially uh in light of uh the uh the chinese economy and and their ability to also develop new technologies and and use those technologies uh in their defense uh production and there is also all the change that has happened over decades. Back in the fourteen and fifteen and six burbs, even the seventies, most of the defense technology was developed by the government. A new co was a big state run program, manhattan program, the U.

S. Uh G P S. A. This kind of internet was actually result of a government finance government uh uh controlled and that is uh research programs. This has talked to changed now most of the advanced uh or and the technologies are developed in private uh uh business in private companies H A I A sober uh the the the whole .

silicon valley.

the all all are now private. But but the governments uh our defensive which is of course still state responsibility lie s are totally dependent. So we need to work with the private business to ensure that um we keep a military is the the the the technological as a lead to show that do you have the best arms in the future.

Yes, let's change, take care and moving into happier territories. We have something in norway called the spending rule home gagin, which you first as a brilliant student of economics and worked on, then as a minister, finance the prime minister and so on. And it's a rule which tells how much of the norwegians of one wealth fund can be spent every year to support the budget. And he's really been a corner stone in the economic planning in this country. We know what inspire to create this rule.

IT was the understanding that no way was going to get a lot of revenues from oil like us are much bigger revenues than we expected. Um um i'm therefore when I was promised in two thousand and then we actually had only next or revenues only for a few years at the first org, news came to northern nine hundred and ninety six and the beginning they were quite small and then IT was obvious that we needed we needed some way of deciding how much we could spend and we are very afraid of uh what we refer to us duch disease uh to spend too much um and therefore we start partly in the kind of academic but also than a political discussion, how to established a fiscal rule for how much of the oil revenues we could spend um and the purpose were actually too fold one was ensure that uh not only our generation but also future generations get the benefit uh of the oil and gas resources that we have found on the mission continental shelf h that's a kind of long term perspective. The other reason to uh establish the this school rule and the and the pension of one um was to ensure that we could uh stay blest in which an economy to separate earnings from spending and prevent overheating of the uh economy and therefore we we established ed the pension phone and the first morning was allocated to the pension phone in to six but perhaps as important was this fiscal rule where we decided that a old oil gas revenues um was going to go into the which in pension form and then that the only thing we're going to spend was the financial return uh which we h estimate to three percent year terms per year as as an average and therefore the fiscal says that which only uh h spend on a bridge uh the fiscal uh return of three percent estimated um um and and that has short no way um very well.

It's quite a fit to manage to get a political consensus around the spending of such walls resources. Uh, and probably one of the successes of uh, h one of the main successes of the fund, uh, has IT worked by you .

thought yes. And if anything is that worked even Better? Uh uh uh because uh party because the fund has become much bigger, done be expected for many ways or can I ask production in which and called the one shelf has been bigger.

Prices have been higher and we also have good investments because of people like you have been able to manish the front in a very good way. So the document binary of all these things have made found much a bigger and therefore also the fiscal rule. More important.

if you had at the time when the fiscal rule was made, h had also made a rule for how much, uh in total, could the fund contribute to in percent of the budget? What do you think .

that percentage would have been? I think you think that would have been than the current percent, which I think is most one one region. State expenditure of state budget is finance by the return from the oil fat.

So at twenty five, what do you think you would have?

No, I am not able. I know, but then I think is important in the way I am not able to give an exact number. But the thing is important, understand that there are all concerns. And I am careful being going too much into that debate because that's the reach debate. And I and I am careful being too specific on issues.

I don't know words so close without the last days, but but I think that the idea back into thousand, and they made the fish look, was in the way that this was going to IT could not forever, because in one way nature has no, sorry, nora has spent zero or oil, revenues。 The only thing they have spent is the fiscal return on the oil. And and and of course, that can lost forever. Uh, as long as we have the installed ment, the the chAllenge and you know that Better. Of course, we know so much of our wealth in the stock market and of course there can be big fluctuates, uh, that can have a great impact on uh on the which an economy and that's a new risk, which we didn't face, at least not in the same way.

Uh um but um uh so I am always a bit careful um uh changing these kind of fiscal rules too often because that will undermine the credibility a perhaps is Better to have an imperfect rule which is credible than to all this try to run for A A more perfect rule about which is the constantly changed that will because this is this is the self imposed restriction and the biggest success in a way is that a democratic s is orally as norway has been able to handle this enormous amount of cash without spending IT. Uh uh I remember back in the night tonight is when we uh had this discussion and and started to invest in inequities and and had the first allocation of the dependent form. Many experts, also economists, colleagues of mine said this cannot happen.

The democratic institutions, politicians, they will spend. If they get them on that, they will spend. So they're actually favorable, reducing the oil and gas production to keep the wealth uh in the contents shelf um and the actually former governor the and central bank had would school no he LED next per group and they said IT cannot work.

Politicians will spend if they got them money we are proving them wrong. Uh and that's the biggest success. But but again, if you start to change these rules too often, you may undermine in the magic or the line in the sun, which is which is there at the fiscal room.

I think we can say, well, on the region, politicians.

And well.

yes, we talk about how the world has changed since you roll this book. How have you changed?

I have I ve been I become of the same really stick about the the dangers. I have always been extreme of the mistake and and embraced the world and free trade and openness. I am less that guy now um because i've seen the backside of that a metal or that coin um um then and have been as I always been in favor the transatlantic north american gether.

But of course being in naked to for ten years I I am more aware of the importance so i'm more i'm more as I even more committed to that area. I'm ten years older and and first informal, not first informal, but but in the top of that, for the first time in my life, i'm in one way free, meaning that and that's not only a good thing. I all was worked in public sector uh a as the economist, as potation and the nate, which is also public sector and now I am back in away and start in your life, which is different from their life. I lived up to know and that's a danger is is scary.

But also you think you mention that um both you and which had worked in a party system, you know with lots of parties, uh you have to work with the union and so on. Now how that experience how has that made you a Better diplomat and negotiator?

You think, well, I think I think that's the most important thing I broke me to do most the most important thing that most brings, uh, with him to do is of leading something where you have to find compromises. I think i've never been in the C E O. But I think when when you are A C O, we just make decisions that impression in a private company and you have a care mand when you're a prime minister, especially in a multi party government. Uh uh we not clear majority in the in the parliament, which is the case in more and more at least udp an countries, then you need to find compromises everyday that's just the the the the the the rule of of of the game uh uh and and that's also when you are the boss in nato that's the same. You have uh not many parties, uh but we have thirty two different countries and they will have to because .

you talk about beautiful compromises, most people don't think compromises also beautiful. But you you .

really like them yeah I like them part of because I think that very often actually the solution is Better when you make a compromise a uh then you then you something which baLance different interests and and and and and that's very often the best solution to to take into current different interesting different views. But second, that's the only way to make decisions and to and to move forward and and our democratic societies are compromises between capital and labor, between right and left, between different political use um and overall I believe that these open societies uh with different interests are Better than extreme societies that um just I had to warn the religion or run political ideology now .

nordic leadership style IT is also more it's a styles more about consensus. And someone, was that also something you brought .

into a no, no I yes, I brought in the interior, but IT was less conscious. I because I just brought away, I have LED the new governments uh for ten years A I wrote that same culture to next to uh I after wards or after some years after some some time I realized that that was to something send a new style um but I believe even talking to people, having an open access to people and to also be Frank. So I think it's much easy, do you have good decisions when the people will work with, actually have the current, or telling you that you are wrong, or we have to do something different or this doesn't work instead of people are afraid of criticising or or or being Frank and open with you.

You run this country um during the july attack um the the terror attacks that we had and you know through the ukraine situation in eight to one of them, how does one lead a during these dramatic situations was the key to store system.

It's to remain calm in a way um and to and to make sure that to sleep um uh uh because um IT is important to be able to function. Um so i've seen some people in crisis exhAusting my self too early uh so so you need to protect yourself. That may sounds a bit register, but but I think if you lead the function of A. Over time, you need to ensure that to get the support uh uh at the help so you can do what you have to do as they to be there uh h to formulate uh uh uh uh a message to to uh to be present, especially in the public domain for public leader and there will also need not to be shy to ask for .

help and support. How do you work with feelings?

I am a bit strange there, because when the crisis are acute, I, I, I suppress them. I just keep them away and and in one way, I think that helps me dealing with feelings. Uh, so I remember special twenty twenty two no three in, in, in in two thousand eleven thousand attacks on the twenty of july, friends among were killed. Uh, people are you very well worked with, we're killed.

But I didn't fully take that into, as I say myself, until days after, uh, because H I think actually the fact that I had the role to play, that had to lead, that I had to give speeches to be present, to give comfort to those who lost a loved ones that helped me to deal with my feelings um of course is not a sustainable way. You cannot do that forever. But at least the first days to have a task held me to deal with .

my own feelings onely.

I did lonely but but perhaps less lonely that that people believe although I and that's a part of to yourself. I I think if they are quite good at at asking for help, asking for advice, calling people are asking to come uh to talk to them and and uh uh about the big things, the small things, the feelings uh uh and I think is a bit up to yourself as a leader to be able to open up and accept people into your life and I if there's ending, I am going good that he's to allow people to help me。

Who do you who do you .

like to help you? Almost everyone does the meaning, of course those who are closer to me, um working with me, family members, my wife um but but can also be no more than random person are there if I have a if I have some makeup before A T V show or something, I can also to see what do you think about this? What do you think about that? So so I think is about the openness to advice and not be afraid of uh uh of of getting advice. And now, uh, you men partially .

want to talk about IT, but you have uh, these incredible presence, right? Uh, one of the most incredible presence so i've been, you know, I was so lucky I came down to brutal to have dinner with you and you lived in this gated community and, you know, dinner with you at seven o'clock, I mean, through the gate walked for a fifty meters, and then there is one person standing on the street welcoming me. And that's you and you are the secretary general of nature and a very, very important man. And I just felt, you know, a little overwhelming by .

that experience. I like, I like people. I like you. And and that's natural thing for me to go out and say hello. And but who taught .

you that?

How did you pick? No, I never. How did you pick IT up? IT just false natural for me, uh, IT may be that I learned IT more for my father and I my arrow, because he was also very open for known to like people. And I and I think it's impossible to be a polish without liking to be together with people to I get energy from being together with with people and and and and therefore that's it's not to something is not is not the cost is something that SHE gives me is something that when i'm together with with with people and then of course sometimes also need to rest. And then I just I leave as I maybe I I go to bed, I don't attend a uh reception or or in there, but h or I go on in the weekends, I go about in which an uh forest and I love to be alone or only together with my wife for close friend. But but in general it's something that action gives managing to be together with .

people talk king about people just how you and later you have been dealing with um you know people who I perceive to have you know large uh eagles. I guess what's the key to reaching consensus with them and getting to agreement?

No, I think it's about taking their concerns seriously um um uh and to and to even if we disagree on many issues, we may they may also actually also have relevant points and the and concerns and without being too specific, of course they're been a lot of attention of how did we managed four years president trump h in the White house and and and and it's no no secret that I disagree with him on trade and or abortion or or climate change or but but in one way what I but that is that was not core issues funato.

So what I focused on was what much funato an action, those issues we were, had a large degree of agreement. His main message wall, that european Alice had to invest more in events. He conveyed that message in a way which is also a bit not as different than than any other political leaders.

But but the court of message, uh, was something was absolutely same as present obama had done before him, or present biden does now. Uh, and I took that concern seriously, and I think that helped the same with with present other. And people also may, how how does that work? Well, he has expressed serious concerns about the fact that no of the country, h eight to other country has suffered more test to text than a than turkey. So take that seriously, I think focus on the issues. Uh uh, h that's the best way of uh uh addressing strong political leaders.

You know, back in oslo.

How does that feel? It's great to be back in oslo. Uh, it's a sunday fall. There is little this this is time where i'm born and, uh, uh, my family more, I fair. Uh, uh, so that's that's, that's, that's great. Uh it's a bit different, of course uh but it's a new life and and it's fascinating um to open new chapter my life.

Why is the forest so important for you?

Because for me in nature is a place to be a bit alone or or to together with one or two one persons in close with them um it's a way to both just relax but also to exercise um and then I of course is nice to go out and how dinner but actually want the best ways to be together with all the people is me just to walk and we talk and we walk for a half hour or the hours? Uh, I also cook. Yeah, I cook.

I like because I hunt, I hunt. Okay, no, I am. I I my family has has no what I said, no interest for hunting. But then when when I was fifty, I had some fifty years crisis, as recalled in the way.

So then I started to do strange things, including climbing of mountains, which something, everything before, and starting also to hunt, which also told the new experience. And then I hunt three, four days every year. And uh, often I don't shoot anything, uh, but sometimes I am able to shoot which rain there. And then I one of the specialties is done to prepared rainer four friends.

and I was looking enough to at one of those dinner. But thing that really impressed me was that you served old gray ict gray ice cream.

Would you have made yourself? Yes, but that's now, this is a very good post, because we get all the best information about me. Because I have, when I lived in a nato, I had the privilege ving a shift in the house, of course, the world of the inner position so on. But they also prepared food for me and the and especially in the corona h we were a bit stuck in the house. Um so I spent more time in the house and the Normal uh and then I started to extreme learn from him how to cook uh i'm not a chef uh are many very food dishes i'm able to to to make but princess to make my own homemade ice cream, actually book the machine uh so I can make quite good ice cream. Uh and it's so was difficult but it's nice to serve ice cream which are prepared yourself.

The norwegian population and the european a population should make food for you every day because you have a served. The country and european made IT a safer place. So big thanks for doing that and big thanks for being today.

Thanks much.