Co-Founder of Pixar, Ed Catmull: Fostering Creativity, Learning from Mistakes, and Pixar’s Unique Culture
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Pixar has dominated the world of animation with titles like toy story finding, imo, the incredible cars wants to think. The firm has won twenty seven academy awards. And today we are in the very, very good company with ed cattle, who started with Steve jobs and john lester now.

And also where the best book I have ever read have a creativity, namely creativity. Don't think if you haven't read IT, you should run out and buy IT. So d what on or do you on the cast .

is that please be here.

And when you started pixar, what was your vision for the firm?

Well, initially the vision was just to make the first animated film. In the process of doing that, I and we transferred from like a technical vision to A A management and a cultural vision. And IT took a while to figure this out for many years of observing other companies, making mistakes and learning, but also finding that managing for me personally was extremely interesting. So I am from being a team ical person to a manager, but evolved over time. No training is just all learning to go observing and learning from mistakes.

As you observe this and as you work, what kind of cultural vision did you have?

Well, I I was fortunate. And when I started off in graduate school, my first two teachers later received the turning award for entirely different reasons. One of was alan k, who pretty much ingredient the notion of things we're going to change in an expansive great.

But the other one was from, i've insulant, where who is basically saying, IT doesn't matter what your big vision is, you can solve the problem now. So these are the two sides of IT. But one of the more important things was that when I was at in graduate school, I love the culture.

IT was supportive. Everybody was in this together. There was no real class structure. And when I laughed, I just said to myself, this is the kind of environment that I would like to have for the rest of my life.

One of the things you talk about in your book actually talk about three important points in terms of getting collective creativity. One is that, uh you uh should put the creative authority in the hand of a project leader rather than an executive. What why is that important .

projects need leadership with them, but at the same time, if everything is tapped down and that means the person who was at the top of the company is making the decisions, but the person the top of the company actually often doesn't know exactly what's going on.

For my point of view, that meant that the people who are running, and this includes Steve jobs too, are chairman in the main investor, was that we didn't pretend to be filmmakers, that you have filmmakers there and they have to make decisions. But we also think other decisions are hard. Their tough um you essentially have to trust them because nothing works when you start.

And if you don't do that, then they're not solving the problems. You don't want to become their problem. You want them to own the problem of making the film.

You also talk about a the importance of sharing work in progress, which is for many people, quite difficult. Tell us why it's important to just share your work.

I think this true with life in general, with projects, is that if you're taking on him and is important, then he requires a lot of people. They are all participating in IT, and you have to think of them as cocreate.

And if you're gonna treat them like the creators, they have to be engaged in the problems, which means that since you know you're going have problems at the beginning, that I can't even judge whether not something is good because he has problems. The only judge that I have of up ahead of of any project was whether not the team was functioning well together. If they are functioning well, if they are laughing and they're struggling with each other, then they are much more likely to solve the problems.

And if they're not getting along with each other, the other losers, the trust in the people, then they're not likely to solve the problem. So the measure is the health of the group, not not whether not the projects working, because the project is the problem, so they may struggle. And i'm not looking at the fact that they are struggling. Is are they working together?

You also, uh, talk about the the importance of dismantling natural barriers and and silos. And so tell me about that.

Well, the natural tendency in organizations is to optimize something and make a workgroup of one of the words even though they don't like clios people tend to make them just a natural tendency in organizations. And if so, if you point this out that they're doing something they don't actually particularly like, then they're more open to for breaking down those doors. And what that means is paying attention.

Took little details, in the case of the picture, are building, which I believe is the best building I never worked in, in my life, was the middle of the building was an open space where people crossed and hand crossed to get around the building. So IT was designed to have all the the community things. At the center are theatres, with three theatres to show films and process of eating area. A meeting rooms or bathrooms were all at the center, so everybody had a reason to cross. Um is just paying attention of those kinds of details which caused in inversion and canners to take place.

What were some of the other thing is that you like with the building.

the decor was cleaned, but the same time, all the walls, like the walls, the animators were painted White. And the reason pain White was there, are encouraged and allow to do whatever they wanted to these buildings, to these rooms, and they just did strange things, some cut holds in the walls and facilities supported that. So nobody we're saying, don't touch sister, I don't paint this not like knock your self out.

And they did, they did some of the stranger things, and they give up an organic field to the building, but organic in the sense that the people working in the basis were the ones who made the changes. The reason in any facilities group, the thing don't do that. Their job is do that. And the requirement is don't break fire code laws.

Now you mention Steve jobs when you compare him with other seals will set him apart .

over the course of of my life with him and I worked for Steve longer than anybody else um when I first knew him, he was like that kind of personnel got kicked out of apple, which was not a good behavior. So I knew. And when he he was there, a nice of people write about and make the movies about 啊 but Steve was so smart that I watched him learn from his mistakes and he went through an art in his life。 And probably in the years of nineteen ninety one through ninety five, he dramatically changed his son read was born.

Pixar made its first film and was successful when a pictures of public in ninety five, IT was his first success and being, uh, first out of apple and in the process he became empathetic and after he changed the people who with him stayed with him for the rest of his life. Um so that sort of like the art part of the story but the other one was the sheer of bryant and the understanding of change. So as as I mentioned, he didn't tell us how to make the film was at and picks are never did not ever tell me how to do technology or what computers to use, what software use.

So that was my domain. Um he was just a fierce protector of what we were doing and we were very different than apple. But the other thing, which I don't think people realized was Steve relationship with the people around him.

This is where the mythology about Steve actually isn't matter with the reality. So as an example at pixar, we were a public company for ten years. During that ten years, Steve fired two members of the board of directors, and the reason he fired them was they never disagreed with him.

And he said, if they don't disagree with me, they're not bringing any value to the company. His people favoured the phone over the ipad and they disagree and they convent Steve, they think, well, he was always making the right decision. The right decision was to have strong people who disagree with you. But you all had a common interest in mind.

How important has have been for you to have people around you who disagree ing with you?

Well, it's wonder those things that has been emotionally. One of knows gratifying things I had at pigs are was want to to go to a meeting. Then I was just one of the people throwing out ideas.

We have these intense discussions. And the reason that was emotionally gratifying was even if we didn't solve the problem and we didn't agree, when I walked out of that meeting feeling like that, all of us owe the problem. They weren't looking at me and say, what should we do? You're the leader.

Make the decision. We're all in this together. make. We were together for years and years and years because, in fact, we felt like that, I said like a squabble family, but a family was holding together, you know, solving difficult problems.

What's the key to creating that kind of family and that kind of atmosphere? People can disagree in a constructive .

or well I I think part of IT is is genuinely appreciating the um the contribution of others and setting up an environment where that they are all that way too. That is they want to hear what the others have to say. So when we set up our brain trust um which people find kind of interesting, but there are few cases. The brain trust um one of them is the the brain trust actually doesn't have any authority explain .

what the brain trust is.

We understood at the beginning that you get lost in your own project, you lose objectivity. So it's very important to have an outside force who is understands the business or the project and will question what you're doing um but at the same time, they have a vested interest in your succeeding.

So when we start with at first few films, there is a person down a disney tome to marker, who was that outside force? He would just chance ge, what we were doing. We didn't often didn't degree, didn't matter.

He was the outside force, but we appreciated IT. But at some point he was gonna a go. He would have to the theatrical and disney back in new york. We were going to lose the outside force.

So we thought we need to make our own outside force, which was this group of the leaders who we could then chAllenge other people's films that in work, the reason didn't work, was, were on the building together, not really have signed. But what we did find in the process of doing that, that IT was remarkably effective at suppressing problems. So we just evolved to figure out how to do this.

And one of the rules we realized right away was the this group couldn't overwrite the director. All they were was giving a feedback and note. But by removing the power from the room, he was now about the discussion of the project itself. And a my role there was actually a little at the dynamics of the room.

My job was, is this group working well? Are they being honest with each other? And why? If aren't being honest, why are people afraid to say what they think that they will not want to look bad in front of others? They tried to impress each other, but there are all kinds of things that are human reactions that can get in the way.

Okay, well, what are they and how do we address? And we ended up with A A group that, in general, was extremely effective, focusing on the problem, giving their note and then moving on. Then they came this over the film later as to go back with those note. I think about what they mean and and feel how to address the problems, but they don't have to take the solutions we offer.

You never call anything a failure. You do say that he he doesn't work.

How how come? Well, one thing you know is the word failure is really loaded because it's got two meanings. One of them is that you screwed up.

You didn't work hard you know and in business and in government, failure is used as a blogging with which to be opponents. So um there's actually really negative consequences that can come with failure itself. But there's another meaning of failure which is that we all fail.

We all learn from IT. But it's almost impossible for people to separate these two meanings of failure. But if you look at the learning part of IT, which is what we're really trying to focus on here, what IT really means is you tried something and IT doesn't work.

And the fact your mindset, then you you're just saying, okay, let's try this and in work that calling a failure doesn't help. The other thing is that once a while we do have failures like something is really got screw up, but you reserve the word failure for a real failure, not for the fact that you're just always trying to do their best to solve the problem. And they don't need somebody, they, to get blood ging with that, and they actually need the confidence that let's try this and i'm gonna damage buyer.

But if you do have if you do have a proper failure, how did you, how did you deal with IT?

Well, a proper failure would be as an example, where after trying and trying to fix something like that, let's say, a leadership problem on a film, right? So people are having problem with a director, and they don't feel the director is listening or responding. We do everything we can to protect the team, but if the team loses confidence in the leader, then that a problem.

So then we try to share them up. We will add people to the team or make some changes. But in the end, if you can't work, then we will replace and have replaced the director on the film.

The truth is, when you put somebody in the role and you think they can do IT, um you are always taking a risk. But you need to do that. You need fresh voices, you need new viewpoints.

But you're also given in a role that never have some rise to IT. Some don't. Honestly, I can't tell ahead of time, which means everyone why you ve gotta go and and and and figure out or or put a new lear.

In your book, you talk about periods where you you guys were just working insanely hard and for uh for toy story too, you you finish that in record time. What's the kind of key to managing people during those super stressful times?

Well, the key is that everybody really wants this to work. They have vested interest in the company. And I and for me was the most important things is that IT wasn't like we as the the leaders are saying this is the in saying goal.

It's like we've got an insane problem we have to solve, and we all need to get together to solve this problem. So they come in with A A mindset. And part of the insane work was that they were working hard to solve the problem.

Fact at that one, that one was pretty instant. Actually, I was too insane um because I was just physically hard on people. But there are a lot of films after that where we had to put a restrictions in place because people were over work because they were trying to impress.

They're trying to do more than was necessary for the film. That wasn't good for them, are good for the film. So that was a tRicky baLance, but unlike the fact they really wanted to do great work. But we are in this for the long half. So there is another side of this, which is people overworking when they shouldn't be and .

you have a created some of the most memorable characters in the history of a filmmaking. Um what is your favorite? Tor is .

not so much a character. The first thing to note is that because I was there during the making the films, I don't see them in the same way that other people do. I can't um I know I am not the objective outsider um so every one of these films has a story behind IT. They're probably like four, five films which a rise to the top for me not only is films, also the store behind them so one of the first is ready to me, which is certain an unlikely story is also on where the original directors a lovely man um he's the one that conceived the the idea he designed the care of if he designed the sad but he was stuck and we had to replace him and um we replaced him with brad bird who basically was that is a brilliant writer and he solved the problem of of the movie so if you look at the final movie, it's the realization of the original pitch which came from somebody else but I would not have been that great movie without this inside the bread had and his incredible sense of dialog and then he took IT into an .

ugly different level is key good story .

telling well. Story telling in in general, if you think about it's like if you read a book to a child, what's the important part is you hold in the child. What up in your reading to them is is a personal connection.

And we we see stories through out our life somewhere well written submerges you know slok off filling a requirement when you're doing podcast, we're essentially telling in hearing stories. And stories are one of the most important things we have to communicate with each other. So for telling a story um are the books or movies or broadway place is we really want to communicate with people. Now I know some stories are just to inform, some are to entertain, but the best movies are the ones which connect to people that you walk out. You had a good experience, but you also walk walk away with something that you connected with.

What's the key to create that connection?

Well, I believe that um it's you know A A couple of people who are leading this like the director and the writer who i've got a concept that they want. But the the the reason you have other people involved is you want to have the experiences from other people. You want other people around there telling stories from their own lives.

And their own experiences are things they see. And there's originals with gathering each of these days and then figure out OK, what is that this going to make this unique, but good story telling also, and get movie making requires they will also be engaging. So one does have to pay attention to the entertainment. Since we have family films, there's got to be some humor involved with IT that holds people long because you wanted have at all ages you're combining adventure, the humor uh but looks, your parents, the lightings, the lighting um all of these animals which are part of good movie making something which conveys, you know, if you ideas into another half and .

when you develop characters, what is the key to developing memorable .

characters well, we have character designers who are trying to make the characters appealing. Even the villains are meant to be appealing um just at a at a visual sense so so that's one level of a character and the other is how they're animated. You look at the animation and so will let this is moving around.

But um the animators have got incredible senses of vision that is there seeing things that most of us don't see at a conscious level like where eyes look uh the twitches on our face, our body language um is something that we do see, even if for not aware of IT, consciously aware of IT, we're still subsequently reading what's going on with body language. And um a good animator does see that and push that into the character. When I give an example this back from toy story too where um the girl Jessie is talking about her life but she's taking the brave and she's twisting IT almost nobody consciously ly members that SHE was twisting her hair but when you see that, you know that as a sign of her anxiety.

That's what animators do, is to see things that are a catches at a different level. So at a movie you got three different levels of communicating. You've got the body language.

You ve got a the actual uh, animation itself of the motion. And then you've got the words that they say. And what is interesting with those different levels are actually at odds with each other. Like if you say that you're happy, but you're doing physical actions to your body, which says you're nervous or you afraid, then you brain picks that may say, okay, now it's interesting because what they're saying doesn't match what they are doing and that's true in life is like reading body languages is like, okay, I can tell that what they're saying is not what they really mean. why?

What's the best way to develop talent in a creative organza?

We published everything we did. We had some competence who didn't because they thought they wanted secrets and argue, was we want to participate in the community. And I wasn't because we were our religious beliefs in open source IT, was because it's all a talent.

Play is, if you participate and you are the place people want to go to, then you bring in the best talent. So we want to look as film. And IT was the same thing. A George completely supported the fact we want to publish everything, and we brought in even more great town. And then Steve jobs came in.

Steve is known for being secretive, but he never question my decision to publish everything, because he understood that everything we did was about bringing a good talent when we reach the point where we brought in john and john understood that this is all about getting talent. So his first two highs were p. doctor.

And understand who are incredibly talented. So essentially you can get two groups who start off with the notion of this, all about getting good towns. We need to bring in extraordinary good people. Now when you're doing good work, then you're more likely to attract the people. I just love .

how you use openness and transparency to a drag talent and and how that is more important than keeping secrets. You know, i'm i'm just really believe in the same thing. You you you say sometimes the smart people are more important than you are. There is what do you mean by that?

The first thing is just to the knowing my own of us, yeah, I learned early on about half of my decisions were a crack. Half were good. And I don't like to have a way of measure in that, but I think it's important to understand that we are wrong more than we think we are.

If you're wrong a lot, then how do you get to good place where you bring in people who know things that you don't know? Which means if you're picking people and you can't even judge whether that they bring value here, you're measuring their I think they work, but um you're also taking a risk. But the success rate, if you approach this way, actually really high. So the number of people who rise the occasion, i've always found is very good because they had to be trusted.

Most of them I really want to succeed and they are all succeed but most do so um if they're smart and i'm referred to that and fairly general sense that this is really talented um and you're looking for the potential and you hire based upon potential, not upon whether now they reached a certain think the level thinking is that crossed the bar, they can do the job. No is what is the potential because the potential is good. Actually they'll catch up to what they need for the job very quickly.

How do you hire for potential? How do you scream for potential?

But in the case of a pixar, for instance, the bug like a second film, the leaders of the film hired people who could do the job. Uh, we had more uh hiring failures from that film than any other um because that that was the criteria. Could they do the job? So I I talk with them a lot about this is no, you hire for potential.

Now the question is how do you hire for potential? So I say, well, let's put together in an intern program. So they took eight interns the first year and they were amazing.

So the day after they graduate came back and join, this is still there and there their phenomenal um but they worked. They did real work. They weren't trainees in the sense they're watching as they came in so well, give me real projects.

So they went back to school and said, I want to work on a movie. So the next year, more people applied and you know, I lost to my check. They were like ten thousand applications for almost one hundred positions.

So right to begin with, you're hiring people who come in as a result of other people have been given real work and having had a good experience. Now you can select from pretty good people and then you you observe them and then you see where nothing they work. So the first building process is actually is is pretty easy because we got off in to a good start on that.

That is why I love you know graduate summer programs because you you do see people who go to tremendous uh possibilities and you know abilities and they just deliver things that you never thought was possible.

Mean right that it's um I don't know people who resist into a bit. It's an awesome way to look at you and find people and grave and you and if you point out they just bring something new and fresh to any organization.

You are them and you are them the most humble person we ever had on this forecast. Have you always been this humble?

I don't I don't know the answer that actually I was easily intimidated um but even I was intimated by people in authority and empower um IT never affected whether I thought something was right or wrong. Do you to humble .

to be as successful in creative industries?

I think it's very important to understand. I think I did understand the beginning. I said um I really am wrong a lot of the time and I think if you think of understand but you're wrong more than you think you are and you need other people um that you're in a Better place and if you're successful um IT doesn't mean it's because you made all these right decisions.

It's because there are a lot of people who are there making this work. And I know Frankly, ly, I have seen people think that he was them who did IT. And it's it's it's a it's a poison in the body to think that your success is because you did that yourself.

That's a very profound observation. How do you think A, I will change animation.

The the one thing this happened over the course of my life is that while most law has been a great key indicator, the the more important number is the compound annual improvement of performance. So for sixty years, the annual compound rate has been forty percent per year, right? That's mind blowing and that's continuing.

Even the morals law has essentially taye ed off um and the x ray increased because with the use of GPU and so far, the amount of computing is incredible. Now you look at the last ten years, the agreed computing in the world has increased by a factor of one million in ten years, and in the next ten years can increase by one million. The the amount of computing available in the reportable device or your best top will increase, by fact, of forty to one hundred in the next ten years.

So when you look at that rate, which kind of what we've lived through you for me spending in the last fifty years is it's going to change things dramatically for for good or for bad. So the answers will that affect animation? absolutely.

It's also highly unpredictable. That's also been the course all along is that is you're gone to change things. absolutely.

When the internet came along, we could see was gone to change everything, was going to democratize information. IT also democratize this information. We are going to go through dramatic changes.

We are adapt. It's just that is pretty unpredictable. And I think that sound like this. Our values matter, how we treat people matter. And those other things which which aren't just about the technology, but they're about our humanity in the way we work with people, are gonna be a crucial, as we've always been. Some people are good at IT, and some don't care.

Talking about humanity and focusing in on all of things, you go on silent to retreats from time to time. What are they about?

Well, I one last week initially I did this IT was kind of scary because that part of the brain which is always chattering and talking um I was thought was me and that was is something in in slowing that down or stopping as to realize that isn't true. It's it's a tool I have but um when I flow that down, I A calmer place to be. So I i've gone two of that have lasted from month and then we will do for a very long period time.

And it's a hard to described state. A lot of people afraid of the concept of being quiet. And so part of IT is to realize how there's nothing be afraid of.

Would you feel like when you come out .

of a month of silences essences? So I come like I I typically have things I need to return to do. But I can go out with more equanimity.

We have A A lot of a Young people on this and listening to this podcast. What is your advice? Young people, you have seventy eight years of experience.

You were too thenthe. Size is downside. A few pieces of advice for Young people.

The one thing I paid attention to recently is that some people. Want to get rich quick um and and for most I know who done, I wasn't their goal. I would actually have A A A personal goal just one day, feel good, bad, has nothing do with wealth or anything like that.

I I want to make a contribution to the world and I know a lot you are that way. They want to address some of the serious problems of the world today. And we know that we've got very serious are extremely serious environmental problems that are coming.

Um we've got unknown consequences of our newer technologies with A I um we can see the the upside for them. H which is is going to happen. We don't fully know the downside.

And so what are the the ethics of the values that people have to bring to these changes which are coming for those who are Young and they're entering into A A time of significant change. So it's an opportunity, but in that opportunity, which is one of dramatic changes, to make sure your whole ronis core of eyes what you do. And I think about what your value, what you want to do and what do you not want to do, and how do you keep from getting lost.

And the other is to value other people's talent. Because you are entering into a space where other people who are very talented, but you also have college with you, how do you establish relations with others? And that was one of the my community that I was going up with.

That is not entertainment community, is a the cigaret community, which is the group that develop computer graphics with child section. Profound impact most of my friends and their friends, because when I was Young, I joined the other people to solve other problems. And you know, we remain friends who participated my entire life.

I argue that. So I when I said to Younger people, because I don't know what's gonna en, you can't even repeat what I did. You can repeat the past, you learn from, you observe. But what you take away is okay. How do we approach becoming changes and what are the chAllenges that are meaningful that we want to work on?

Well as we we can't repeat the past and for sure we cannot repeat uh, what you have done. So um a big thanks for being on the broadcast but and even bigger, thanks for creating all the characters and fair tails and for making our lives so much richer. Y what you're done so a big thing for all of us.

Well, thank you and I.