CATL CEO & Founder Robin Zeng:  The journey to market dominance and powering the future of batteries
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Hi are my body and welcome to injured company. I'm nicola tian and the C. O over the norwegian well fun. And today we have an incredible guest, Robin song, the founder and CEO of catl, the world largest battery producer.

Now is not only the world largest is got a wapping eighty percent of this mega market. Wow, Robin, how did this come about?

No, no, no. Year forty percent. Okay, to be called thirty seven point five percent, something less than forty.

But I think the most important is the right products, definitely, the market need a lot of the ride products to do the a immobility. So right product, you need a right technology. So in our way is more 那个 right chemical， right material, which really have a good products.

So this group product is the finish to the purpose of the consumer. That's why consumer really love that. That's why the customers O E ms would like to make least the products and put this product into their car. That's why we can power millions .

cause so um despite your incredible mark composition, there maybe some listers who don't know what your products are. So just very briefly, what type of products .

do you have? We have a two major product. One is battery, we call a barry for the e mobility.

So you can have the product in the people like tesla car model 3， model one. So in the all, the chinese carmakers are also in the many of o EMS cars. So this bad, we call a to power the whole car.

So is a bef B E V. Another product is we make a Better for the energy story, you know, all the renewal energy like a wind turbine solar cell. That's why you need A A storage berry fok storage gy, regulate the unstable renewable energy surprise， which make a energy supply become very stable, very predictable and very fitness to the industry use and other use.

What's been the main steps? A from going from kind of zero to thirty seven point five percent world market. What's been the important steps here? How long has he taken you?

Yeah, we take almost twelve from zero to the, to this seven, seven, five cent. It's not because of this only two thousand years because our team have been working on this industry for now is a quarter century. Twenty five years ago, we started business with this list ion battery. We should definitely for the mobile phone, for the new book, for the all the consumer onic applications. So we have the similar technology from twenty five years ago.

Who do you consider your competitors?

Uh, today, I think competitors is ourself because we don't have a we still have a lot of to do, especially on the electrical chemical side。 You know the material today, we still in the cash material, uh like list affair and N C M and material to gula fly some city. Most important is the new chemistries will have to invent. So only event the new chemistries that can also fit more usage, more requirement from consumer, for example, low temperature performance.

You say that a your competitor is yourself, you don't worry about any other competitors.

don't consider them as a actually, we love to have a more people join in this journey, which really can have the inventions is not a copycat, is the inventions which is can help to a make the consumer, make customer happy with the real good performance of the products and technologies, because only the competitions in the invention, competitions in the creativity, which can help this industry very healthy to growth in the futures.

And how important is a uh state support in getting a to that type opposition?

But in china is uh more complicated because of chinese uh try to make a lot of products which fit to the consumer usage. So chinese O E M more like we call the hearing more the request from consumer, make good N R than anyone else in the in the world. That's why they can roll out a lot of the good products.

So we in order to support the chinese O E M on this aspect, theatre have been, you know, been well training to how to quick, faster grasp nees and how to quick, faster to remark the production, to support that the cost performance effect, vely and equality, high quality products to our customer. Let the whole story make a difference. You know, yeah.

I could get IT. That's always good that you have A P H D. But how many people have you got in in research and development?

Yeah, we have more twenty thousand people engineer very good talents in my area because, uh, they need to focus on many aspects.

But I mean, twenty twenty thousand is nearly as many people as live in my hometown. So what do they do?

Uh, this twenty thousand people is, uh, some people is focus on basic material structures. Some people is focus on the silence. Some people is a focus on the interaction on the materials. Some people focus on the future chemistry. For example, uh, we call the A I for science, need to use artificial intelligence to try to find out the next volume matter and the chemical system beyond.

And we need to have research guy on the, you know on the bearing management of systems and the software altogether, like twenty twenty one thousand engineers, they have a several hundred P H D, many, many masters. So I on cds, I have been working here for average more than three or five years. They become very talent. And I hope, uh, they can have more innovations in the future to help the the human climate changing focus on this renewable energy.

The talent pool you have is incredible, right? I saw that two out of three widely cited papers on battery technology came out of china. Uh, only twelve percent coming out of the U.

S. Also, you in china have more than fifty graduate programs in batteries compare to only a few, uh, in the U. S. So um how how can the rest of the world possibly compete with you?

You know almost twelve years ago when the Angela mark visit china, we have we have some discussions among that. That time the german people already thinking about how, why they cannot make a good, Better this because they make a very good engine, make a very dear boss. So, you know, german people say, uh, they are, can make medical batteries ies.

That's right. When we have some discussions on that, I told them fortunate. Unfortunately, a china have a lot of university is still working on the electrical chemical. So usually electrical chemistry is a is very low end people looking at, because if you graduate from electrical chemistry, you cannot find a good job, you know, you can only find the people to for the uh let us about this is only find a job for anticlotting.

So all this kind of a low paid job, that's why being very old 的， fairly。 But I know united states a lot of good universities and the students they don't want to focus on this. They want to focus on the finance of, focus on the uh, semiconductors yeah, they need to get a higher pay from the list.

But the china is A A lot of the students who have to go into university. That's why they find more study on the electrical chemistries. That's why we have other talents compared to U.

S, compare to germany. So if U. S, germany want to catch up or want to overtake in the Better side, probably they have to start from the education.

Have you got a view on the amount talent we have?

In no way. I think all twenty thousand people in your hometown is all talents. So we need to find out what kind of talents to think, what kind of use may not be electrical chemistry.

What's the most difficult thing is, is to invent a battery, is said the scaling or battery production. No, is IT more difficult.

make one or to make a thousand. So most difficult thing is the understanding of electrical chemical system in the real world, and other things follow is like a as I mentioned, you have to last twenty, twenty five years, let's right how you put did that and accurately accessory test to indicate there is a really crich that kind of level, uh, is another difficulty in reliability ties so and scale up production. And you know low cost, we are looking for a very low cost ability because they always compare the ability with the gathered engine, internal compassion engine, which you have develop more than hundred years, optimize and optimize. That's why that push too much burden on the barons IT just seems .

like in europe, there is such a problem scaling up production. Is there one common thing that's particularly difficult here?

Not only that, that I talk to that many people, the european Better make A C E O. Uh, willet can not make a good products is because they have a wrong design and the secondary, they have a wrong process, have wrong equipment. How can they scale up if they want to scare up? And later they would be have a new problem, utility some problem, and the later on they will be a reliability problem.

And the two years, three years later, they would be a safety problem. So almost all mistake together. So I don't know how .

that doesn't sounds so good. But if we start with the first one, you said they got the wrong design. What you mean?

Yes, stuff from the long design, mister, if they don't understand the elector chemistry, and as I mentioned, that the design will be long. They never cover the race of the future race. That's why the performance testing in one day looks good. Then you want to scare up they, then you want to put the process the the process never cover what you need in the future.

What what are the applications for european Better Terry production then given what you are saying, where do you think europe is going to be .

in ten years time uh, for the but badly applications that we we will just tell about least inability boat, even the bull train. And since in norway is definitely very advance a nations for this real energy, maybe we can work together to make a planning, to make a norway, the whole norway, become a zero carbon, you know, society. So I have a confidence how to mapping up, you know, the election.

Electricity h zero carbon is important. You have almost ninety percent hyo power, right? Then you add up another ten percent, maybe from the winter, by, from the, from the c and the. And another size is immobilize your passenger cp penetration, you know, already nineteen ninety five percent of the new cars.

Then we can also can help you to make these trucks to be zero carbon by our swapping Better the system, and also we can make a pot electrification and also can help also even the west l, which we call a range standard。 So we can planning together to make a whole norway as a number one in the world, to be the zero carbon technology, the noble energy nations in the world. I think you take around ten years in twenty twenty five, we together will be making. And also you would be very happy to have a lot of income from all this kind of different you know different things.

Well, uh, sounds very interesting and unfortunately, it's above my pay grade. It's not, uh, is not my decision. I only invest money, you know.

And of course, we are have and of course, we are happy that we have invested a lot of money with you. Now you've been doing Better. As for a long time, do you feel that, uh, innovation is accelerating or decelerating?

I don't see too much is actually as relation. You know, when the industry is a small when we start from the mobile phone, the technology like a growing like, uh, uh, uh, a lion is not accelerate. I want to put more money, more people inside now, everyone looking for the innovations though, innovation, species associate.

And we believe we'll be another new industry, a new chemistry come out. That's why when we put our product, when we invest on a production line, we have to put the production you know that the the the production line have to depreciate faster. The depreciation have to be five years anyway. Uh, we want IT. So new things come out.

So a lot of companies push kind of solid state batteries as a game change. What are the show stoppers here?

Wow, I have been uh many, many times of the different people. Uh, the basic show stop is still less steel is the interface solar and solar interface whenever casa era with the electronic so soly electorate solid powder, so in the end material, so the solid interface, definitely the problem of the divisions, the speak on the divisions is almost too oldest less 来了 liquid electorate。

That's why people have to put the pressure to put the two sly pod together, very heavy pressures that make IT works. But in the real application days, how can you gather the heavy pressures? So IT is the fundamental science and technology issues, but we have to overcome by different things, different, different new invention of the materials, new invention of the process.

So he take time. So internal technology reading level, I play four. Level four, you are also in a .

so demand and condensed metal batteries. How do you view these technologies?

The sodium ion is much now we already have the production, small production to the some carmakers. The only problem is the a little be low lower energy density compare with fit today. That's why when I own fast way is a cheaper.

People tend to see that that I own fast way rather than sold my own. But we have developing the second generation of sodium iron, which can be a very good compare with the first ation. So we believe we even to be a twenty thirty percent of replacement of this fact in a smaller car on a shorter range of the cars and an initial today as of the condensate. Ter batty is, uh, i'm proud of lab because he is a very good to in the emotional application is a very expensive today and uh, we are working hard on that try to make uh you know maybe two times compared today or one point five times so we can use this badly to the very high anka which you need an energy density, uh, for the speed and 还有 a range。

When you look at your process and so on, what's the key to your a to your successful supply chain? I mean, your friends is all in your own lithium mine, right? What are your advantages when you look at your supply chain?

For the supply chain, usually, uh, people have to look at the supply by the applications. For example, h several years ago, l people say, wow, nico cobo is very important because of Better. We're going to big applications.

That's why you need to have A H invest in nico, especially in the cobo mining. But they don't understand that is a we can have, uh, making the structure change innovations to reduce the couple applications. So couple from thirty three percent, reduce to three percent. And also even now we can remove the couple never used a fast fit, then the cobo become zero, Nicole become zero. So not only the technology, people who understand the train of the development applications in the future, who to know, who to choose, what kind of mining is a good mining investment, this probe is our advantage, so we have to very carefully understand the advantage of the different material, and especially with the chemistry system, who will be the winner.

and we can judge. And how do you benefit from this one set of factories in europe?

Yeah, I have a two thousand in the in germany is hungry, stability gradually, now still majority from china. As for example, in norway, we definitely we can went together for because you have a very low cost of the hydro powers, so we can make graph fy together. So no graph is one of the most important is the energy consumption.

Changed type of bits, energy storage. How do you see that market developing?

Uh energy story in my money is is a similar or maybe half maybe half size of the a uh transportation. Uh any story is more difficult than uh than the transportation, you know because of the lasting need the last twenty twenty five years. But many people think that this is easier because they they say this is a stationary pull, not to move.

Uh, yes or no. A number two is the energy study usually huge pack. For example, one kicker of a battery pack, the whole system IT contains at least at one point five million sales, I think about one point five millions sales s plus all the electronics, mechanical. So more management put into the system and passing this sofa, the whole one kick of our Better is energy story system contains maybe seven to maybe nine million of the components, similar as the boy 777。

When you control your quality in the one outdoor of P P P P M, that means every day you have the product, you have the component of problem, you have to maintenance, you have to repair that, you have a lot of maintenance cost in the future, and also degradation difference consistently, very, very difficult control. That's why for theatre, we want to put the badly manufacturing quality up to P, P B. One different parts per billion.

So three orders increase the quality level to fit for the usage of this energy story. So it's difficult. Yeah everyone, if you everyone tell you is good, you know, ten years later pay, maybe five years later, I have to pay a lot of money.

How much time you spend on the corporate culture at C A L, what do you think defines the the culture compared red to other companies?

Uh, our culture is, uh, uh, we have a vision. We try to be a very inner innovative technology company in the world, especially focus on the renewable energy. And I tried to do the excEllent contribution to the human society in renewable energies. On the other hand, we try to create a platform which you helped the individuals to fight to growth, their spirit and you know, material well being actually money.

So we need to give them a more stop options and also help them to really fighting for the the the growth, uh, especially innovations and also the confidence by themselves become a Better man, the focus on the reliable energy, so people believe very meaningful in this journey, especially working in seattle now, is one a fifty million cars and fifty million cars in the world power by seattle barriers. So think about that. You already help her to reduce a lot of a carbon, you know, any other.

And we are keep on doing these uh innovations to help the climate change and also such inability for the for humans development. We try to get the same vision. And also we are using the also chinese culture we called refine。 So everyone have to define themselves and enable Alice then to drive an innovation. We always say how to say, successfully introduce a chinese traditional thinking up, refine, enable and strive innovation.

And we're going to how are you still trying to refine .

the way you work of me last two way. One is my my philosophy. I don't want to be the, I don't want to be the rich guy in Richard guy, whatever, doesn't mean I.

So I want to share this rich or wealthy to many people's to try to create the goose I society, especially for the stability. This is a number one refined for my now view of my, a wealthy, that is, that I need to define myself to be more stronger body, you know, otherwise is always tired. No, you cannot find the patients, very important, otherwise cannot lasting for longer.

The sort of things. I am now trying very hot to find the successes. So this is three three things in my mind now is a more top politics.

So Robin, I believe you and I we share one thing in common. We both sleep a bit in the midst the day we take care. I did not in the office.

Yes, this is a long time. Usually leave maybe many office when .

during in the day you sleep one P M.

uh, something like that start sleeping, uh, maybe thirty minutes. So good enough to recover.

And what did I do to do?

You become a more, you know, energetic. Maybe the body is physically needed.

Now you grew up in a real china, right in the what? What do you think that has done to you as a person to come from a rural place? Moving, being very successful. How has IT helped .

in your business? We have the difficult economics and the my hometown very poor. So me, day one, I think we we have a confidence, uh, because we believe we can overcome all the difficulties once we have a chance.

Number two is where we are have a very strong mind. We are not easy to be a bit anywhere because we have experience. Number three, uh, we we are not much, uh, too much looking at the wealthy s because we have experience is so poor and we are we have no problem on that.

So we we say that if people almost, tom is, said Robin, why don't you enjoy your life? You know, you can buy, you know, say, for me, there is not much joy, you know, we have to overcome the difficulties to do something great to to support people, poor people, and also support the this renewable energy in the in the world, you would be very happy. So usually I I like to invested the manufacturing plan in the, in the related poor area.

What kind of projects to your .

support for my, for my donation is usually go to this very, a very poor 的 children。 We donate some money for them to, they have some people to care, just talk, touch or, you know, play together. So I join some international program for the children。

Do I believe if we can, C, A R can invest the manufacturing prom in some pool area, so their family no need to move out to come, come out to the, you know, a big city to work, to leave the children in the hometown. So that's why we invest the manufacturing place in the 贵州， man, in 河南， all these areas to help them there. They can have this family there. So such kind of things is for me, is a much happy and made me more stronger in the, in the, in the role area.

When you meet, when you meet Young chinese people, what advice do you give them?

My oh vice is a strive, be patient, strive.

if you were to give advice to Young people in the europe and the U. S, what would you tell them?

I think is similar. Usually today, Young kids, they have want to have become rich very fast, right? So be patient. But I start, everyone have a chance.

I believe very good. Robin, it's been a, uh, tremendous talking to you. It's incredible what you have achieved.

And I have to say I am, I am pretty happy. I'm not the your. Thanks a million.