Dr. Robert Lustig: How Sugar & Processed Foods Impact Your Health
03:24:07 Share

Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew huberman and i'm a professor of neutral logy and optimal gy at stanford school of medicine. My guess today is doctor Robert lustig.

Doctor Robert lustig is an end canoe gist, that is, he's a specialist in the function of hormones in the body and a professor, pediatric ancho logy at the university of california, 3Frances go。 He has authored more than one hundred per reviewed studies expLoring how different types of nutrient that is food impact our seller functioning, our organ functioning and thereby our health. During today's discussion, we discussed the idea of whether not a calorie is indeed a calorie, and whether not our body weight and body composition only reflects the number of calories we eat versus the calories that we burn.

We talk about how different food types, that is, how the different macro nutrient, protein, fat and carbon hydrates are processed in the body, and the important role that five and the gut microbial plays in that process. And we pay particular attention to the topic of how different types of sugars, and from toast, in particular, can indeed be addictive to the brain and can modify the way that hormones in the body, in particular insulin, impact our liver health, kidney health and indeed the health of all of ourselves and organs. Indeed, doctor elastic is an expert in how sugar impacts the brain and body.

We talk about how certain types of sugars can indeed be addictive in the same way that certain drugs of abuse and behaviors can become addictive. So in other words, how sugar actually changes the way that the brain works. And we discuss how the food industry, that is, the commodification and sale of particular types of food, has altered the way that we eat, and indeed, the foods that we crave.

Today's discussion covers all of that. And by the end of today's discussion, you'll have a thurow understanding of how foods are processed when they enter your body and how those different food choices are impacting your media and long term health. Before we begin, i'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and researchers at stanford.

IT is, however, part of my desired effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, i'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is element.

Element is an electorate drink with everything you need and nothing you don't. That means plenty of salt, magnesium in patache, this so called electronic and no sugar. Now, salt, magnesium and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons.

In fact, in order for your neurons to functions properly, all three electrical lights need to be present in the proper ratio. And we now know that even slight reductions, intellectual light concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits and cognitive and physical performance. Element contains a science book, electronic ratio of one thousand milligrams, that one gram of sodium, two hundred milligrams of plastic and sixty milligrams of magnesium.

I typically drink element first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydroid my body and make sure I have enough electrical lites. And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if i've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try element, you can go to drink element that's 1T点 com slash huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase。 Again, that drink element element t dot com slash huberman.

Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up, waking up as a meditation APP that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga eja, recessions and nsd r non sleep depressed protocols. I started using the waking up up a few years ago because even though i've been doing regular meditation since my teens and I start doing yoga edra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an APP, turned out to be the waking up APP, which could teach you meditations of different durations. And they had a lot of different types of meditations to place the bringing body into different states, and that he liked IT very much.

So I gave the waking up up a try, and I too found IT to be extremely useful, because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate. Other times I have longer to meditate. And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states, depending on which meditation I do.

I also love that the waking up up has lots of different types of yoga eda section. Those who don't know, yoga eza is a process of line very still, but keeping an active mind is very different than most meditations. And there is excEllent scientific data to show that yogananda and something similar to IT called non sleep deep breath or nsd r can greatly restore levels of cognitive physical energy, even which is a short ten minute session.

If you'd like to try the waking up up, you can go to waking up dot com slash huberman and access a free thirty day trial. Again, that's waking up dot com slash huberman to access a three thirty days trial and now for my discussion with doctor Robert luc. Doctor Robert luc, welcome pleasure.

truly, uh, just being here, being invited. Uh, high honor, really appreciated. And it's not doctor.

It's just rob. Okay, rob, i've been looking forward this conversation for a long time. I've seen your now famous, can we also say infamous but famous youtube video about sugar will put a link to IT in the showing te captions. It's been viewed many, many millions of times.

Yeah, I still can't figure out why that is. Well, I didn't think my mother would watch IT, and SHE didn't, but only four and a half million people did.

Well, I think people are very interested in what to eat, what not to eat. And we will start off simply talking about what most everyone believes and understands, which is that a calories is a form of heat energy that's given off during the processing of some food bit or something. If that's mysterious to people, just understand that a calorie is a unit of energy.

And I was taught, and still many, many people worldwide believe that a calorie is a calorie, meaning if I consume more calories in whatever form, then I metabolized by thinking, feeling, moving, exercising, eeta, then I will gain weight. And if I consume fewer calories, then I burn, I will lose weight. And we could talk a lot about where that weight loss comes from.

Does IT come from atop s body fat stores or from muscle or from protein? Er muscle, of course, is protein at sea. But let's start off with, is a calorie truly a calorie? When IT comes to the processing of different types .

of calories, everyone thinks that obesity is about energy baLance, that is, calories in, calories out. Therefore, two behaviors, gartney and sloth. Therefore, if your fats is your fault, therefore die exercise.

Therefore, any calorie can be part of a baLanced. Therefore, don't pick on our calories, go pick on somebody else's calories. This is actually what the food industry uses to assuage their culpable for the change in the food supply and the rise in obesity and chronic disease like diabetes.

Now, IT is true that a calorie is that unit of energy that raises one gram of water, one degrees grate. And so therefore a calory burned is a calorie burned. I don't argue that that's true.

That's the first latherum dynamics, but that doesn't mean a calorie eaten as a calorie eaten. That's not the same and that's where people get IT wrong. So let me give you some examples of how that calorie eaten is not a calorie eaten.

You like ammons, I do me too great. You one hundred and sixty calories and ammons, how many of those do abort hundred thirty? You need one hundred sixty zorba hundred thirty, where the other thirty go .

in the processing of that food energy?

no. Turns out the fiber in those omens, both cyber insight fiber, and by the way, fibers, sort of the key of the kingdom in the story, forms a jail on the inside of your in testing the insider fiber. The cellos forms a fish net, if you will, allow us work on the inside of you, do on them, the cyber ber, which are globally la.

Plug the holes in that fish debt. Together, they form a secondary barrier. You can actually see IT on electron microscope.

A why does jail? And that prevents absorption of those thirty calories. So yes, a hundred thirty get absorb, but many of them don't.

They end up going further down the and testing to the next part called the judge unum. And that's where the microbiome. Now everyone knows about the microbial e nowadays.

You know, it's all the bacteria. You know, we always say when women are pregnant, you're eating for two. Well, we're always eating for a hundred trillion.

Now they have to eat. What do they eat? They eat.

What do you eat? The questions, how much should you get versus how much should they get? Well, a few eight ormonds.

They're getting those thirty calories. So even though you count the calories at your lips, that doesn't matter. What really matters is counting the calories at your intentional al burst border, kay, and they're not the same.

So if you feed your god, that's a good thing because then your god will take those calories, turn IT into things like shortening fatty asses, which end up being protective against chronic medical disease. Associate propria beauty ate valuate. Those are actually good, their anti and fomenter anti alzheimer's, because you feed your microbes.

So even though you eight, one hundred sixty, you absorb one hundred thirty. So a calorie eaten and is not a calorie eaten because if you ate IT with fiber, IT wasn't for you. IT was for your bacteria.

But that's not the way you count them up. So that problem number one. Problem number two, a many assets. So we all eat protein. Let's say you eat too much protein and you know the porter house stick right now, if you're a body builder, those I mean the asset might go to muscle and you might increase your muscle mass because your body builder because your putting uh access uh force on those muscles and you're growing those muscles. Okay, but let's say you're not a body body like me .

or let's say your a kid going through pubnico zing a lot of muscle because they're lifting weight because .

but because test strongs making IT hard. Yeah absolutely. But let's say you're not they say, you know you just just slump off the street like you know more and you eat that porter house you've taken on all these minos is there's no place to store IT of in so your liver takes the access and the ami dates that the as IT takes the minor group of to turn IT from A A mino acid into an organic acid and then that organic acid can then enter the curb cycle. The try cbc silk cycle.

What goes on in the meta country in order to generate atp, the chemical energy that your body needs in order to power itself OK. Now that's a good thing. IT takes double the amount of energy to prepare that mino acid for burning, as IT does to prepare a carbon hydrate for burning. So ask, when you ask about omens.

why the the one sixty versus one thirty? I thought I was the process and interact IT was fiber. You're saying for team, let's IT. Let's make IT realistic for A A really nice big porter house steak, which I love by the way, let's say let's say eight hundred calories. Well turns how how much of that is is uh so that's what goes in your mouth right, my mouth right. How much of IT is actually um eaten in to stay with your calorie and is not a calorie in the processing of that? What percentage actually goes into your total caloric intake?

right? So about ten percent of everything you eat goes to just maintaining buddy temperatures, call the thermic effective food. But when you're eating protein, you are truly generate more heat.

And the reasons because IT takes two A T P to us for late, that organic acid as opposed to one atp to uh first relate that carbon hydrate for uh, consumption. So you actually have a net loss of energy because IT was A A menaced versus a monos acota A A sugar. Now you you brought up fat.

Fat doesn't need to be fast for related. So IT actually doesn't have any a thermic effective food at that point. So depends on what IT is as to whether or not you have lose cause.

So but with this um let's make IT actually realistic a sixteen hundred calorie porter house with a nice slab of of grasp but on there and this every once in a while not not often some cream .

spinach and maybe some mushrooms along the side when .

I meeting a porter house, I don't want to adult rate the taste OK with anything else except maybe butter, maybe a salad OK afterwards but but let's say sixteen hundred calories of it's got some fat in there for sure let's say um a thousand of those calories is protein. The other six hundred are fat, like is something like that definition how married that is. Okay, so based on what you just said about the thermic effect of food and protein in particular of that thousand calories, how much actually is can we count? I'm not a calorie counter, but does one include as calories truly injured ted.

well, if you invested sixteen hundred.

well, that's what went in the mouth. What is? Is onna go against your burn deficit, right? So I would .

have to actually do the math to figure that out. But as I guess are back of the envelope, back the envelope calculation, you're gone to lose about twenty five percent of that.

wow. So we're talking seven hundred and fifty calories. You to translate this a bit.

So we're saying here is if you're somebody who is trying to lose weight or maintain weight or perhaps even gain weight, you eat six hundred calories. Porter house with a slab of button on IT. Six hundred. Those calories we're saying in this is, is fat with the remaining thousand calories that that all went in your mouth.

So I counted at your mouth right.

but seven hundred. But then when you compared against your energy burn for that day to maintain temperature, brain activity, physical activity, really is only seven hundred and fifty calories. That's a huge difference.

exactly in another reason why a color is not a gallery. Now let's take the third. Let's take fat.

So here we have a mega trees, hard, healthy anti and flaming anti alzheimer's, save your life. Here we have transferred the devil in cornet consumable poison. Because you can't break the trans double bond. You don't have the disagree ies to break that trans double bonds.

So IT basically accumulates, lines your arteries, lines your liver, causes clinic medaba disease, causes insulin resistance, or make a trees don't even get broken down for energy because there is so important, they stay intact because your brain needs them, your heart needs them. Where is transfer can't be broken down because of that trans double bond, one, save your life, other one kill you. That both nine colors program, if you explode them in a bomb kilometer, because a calorie burn is a salary burned.

But a calorie eaten is not a calorie eaten, because one will save your life. We'll kill you. And finally, the big koona, the one that blows everything else out of the water, fracturing glucose right now, glue cos the energy of life.

So here we're talking in carbon hybrids. I think most of our audience will be familiar with the so called macro nutrient. So we talked about fat, in this case omen.

There's fiber there. Probably a little bit talk about the porter house with butter becoming hungry already. That's protein. In fact, very little of any carbon dri. I should be zero essentially .

maybe one year.

And then now we try about cover hydrates and we're gona subdivide that into .

glue cose and frock toast, right? The toast basically becomes glue cose and the liver. So we we can dispense with that unless you have a disease called the a, which is about one and twenty thousand, and courses neon eight managers and know the disease as a pediatric in the criminal, just that would take care of.

But we can dispense with that for the moment, are so glue cose fractus glue cause is the energy of life. Every cell on the planet, brains, glucose for energy. Glucose is so damn important that if you don't consume IT, your body makes IT. So IT will take in a mino acid and turn IT into glucose .

at a local neo genesis.

Neo genesis, that's right. You will take a fatty acid and turn IT into glue cus. And specifically, the glass real portion of the ugly rate will turn in to glue cose.

So the inuit, they didn't have any place to grow carbohydrate. That ice whale blubb, they still have serum glucose level. The reasons because you had to you have to have a sym glucose level in order to power your brain, in order to power your heart.

Yes, you you can use key tones, of course you can, but you know only if you're in a key to genetic state where you use exclusively key tones. And you also need glue cos for structural changes in specific proteins and particularly hormones. So lucus molecules will study T S H, L H, F S H different petitti hormones in order to increase their potent cy. One of the reasons why aging leads to to defective or mono genesis, for instance hypochondria sm hype bo thoris m is the loss of glass consolation on individual um um peptide hormones because of a the inability to add glue .

cos because no, just as an aging phenomenon. Okay, we will come back to this because I think it's really important yeah the idea that injustice of carbon hydrate and the as you call that, the studying of carbon hydrate molecules on hormones can augment the function of those hormones. And with aging, that's a less efficient process.

a less efficient process. But it's not because of consumption.

right? People are still I see the the plenty of folks who are a sixty five and older eating planning of hydes. Just saying a lot of have deficient thaid to astern estrogen for acting IT set up because of the way those cover hybrids are not studying the the hormones exactly.

So there all of those are like of protein hormones.

Let's take that up for later because I think that's .

an interesting and o and there's a disease in children in in babies called congenital disorder consolation, where you can put, uh, blue coast molecules on specific proteins and a causes severe mental return ation all sorts of metabolic voc and a lot of those babies die for that matter. So that's an important thing, right? But that's how important glue courses, frock tos.

On the other hand, this sweet molecule, the molecule we seek, the reason why the food industry study every food in the grocery store, seventy three percent of all items in the american grocery store have added sugar on purpose for the food trees. Purpose is not for yours, because focus is addictive, activates the nuclear accused s, the reward center of the brain in the same way that cocaine, heroin in nicko, in alcohol do, and drives dopamine receptors down, just like nick team alcohol, you know, cocaine, heroin, du, that molecule fractus is, number one, a completely vestigial to all vertebrate life. There is no biochemical reaction in any vertebrate that requires dietary fractus. That's number one.

Number two. okay. Sorry, i'm going to just so you're saying that even though we can process fork those.

we have a limited capacity to process. And in the same way, we have a limited capacity to metabolize alcohol. If you have one drinks a day, yeah, you're okay. You have two drinks a day. Depends on how big you are.

know you and I can I would argue two drinks a week as the maximum. But but let's not go there. But in terms of you're saying when you say fotos processing of fractures of a stig's, what you're saying is that we don't need to do IT. That's it's like the appendix. It's an organ for which he .

has no function exactly and fractus has no function in the human body paid. You don't need that, you don't need IT, don't need IT. But our diet is replete with IT. In fact, our practice consumptions gone up twenty five fold since the beginning of the last century.

I have to access now. I love fruit. I E, barriers go lower. So SHE, since the Price of berries seems that we have come down, they used to be the only of certain times here, and what you call a drive by blue ry either. So i'll just walk back, take off this full.

You can put them in front of me without me eating them. I was just even difficult for me when other people I don't no reading them. So um a lots of blueberries and strawberries, blackberries, if there in season, I love them. No problem loaded with food ctos. No, plenty of fiber.

low frocks s low foco s and barriers barriers s of the lowest .

front s of the world. I thank you OK.

Um and fit is okay because of the fiber. So the molecule, the front to molecules the same, whether it's in a barry or in an banana or for that matter in a coca cola, the fructus molecule is the same molecule. The differences that in the berry, IT comes with a whole lot of fiber, and the banana comes with whole less fiber.

And in the cola, cola doesn't come with any fiber. And the fiber is what mitigates the absorption. So when you consume the fractus with fiver, so your blueberries you're feeding your microban that fractus wasn't for.

you got IT such a relief. And I, I must say, recently had a whole body, M. R.

I is okay, prompted thing. So I was great. I got to watch in IT for in there, and I never had a whole body.

Mr, I learned a few things that we're useful to. Me got a clean bill health. So that's great.

One of the piece of feeding I got that, my god, was filled with this very high contrast stuff, right? And they asked, you know, do you consume a lot of blueberries? And I said, indeed I do. why? And they said, um because that high contrast ever shows a White on the scan is high concentrations of maneuver that we see in people that in just large amount of blueberry ries, which is pretty rare and yours are comparable to a in blueberry season well, and this in my entire gott was filled with with bluebook ries. I suppose I need to cut back a little bit, but now I know that fruit is OK, especially if the fruit has a lot of fiber, but frc tos itself, especially if it's not partnered with fiber, yes. Is first well not required for survival at all, but you're telling me is .

problematic. yeah. And let me tell you why is problematic.

We haven't gotten to that yet. We're just talking about whether it's vestigial versus needed. Now let's talk about what fractus does.

Turns out from ctos inhibits three condom, three separate enzymes necessary for Normal ma control function. Now old, you might a country, you make atp, you might a country have to work a peak efficiency. That's what metal bolic health is.

Is my a country working at peak efficiency? Well, there are three enzymes that are inhibited by fractus. Number one, amp kinds, right? Amp asis.

The fuel gage on the liver cell is the thing that tells deliver to make more mida country fresh, made a country. Because if your amp levels are high, that means you've defauts four related a bunch of atp and you have to regenerate them. So you need some more meta country negative feedback ack path way.

Well, you need that amp kindness to generate that might a country of biogenesis signal except that frc tos, a metabolize fotos called method liot's O M G O sits in the active site of the gamma sib unit of that amp kindness, and actually bins to argenson in that active site, rendering that and i'm now dead. It's an irreversible inhibition because of the covey and bonding of that method, I oxo that alter hide to the origin. And now that enzi is debt, okay. So IT .

basically acts like a key that doesn't turn the lock but prevents the the key that you want in that lock. You're a entering the get lock.

It's like, it's like doing a lock shut. You got IT. That's one of the zone OK. Second one ahead, L S coa d hydrogen is long chain, so this is necessary to leave two carbon fragments of fatty assets to prepare them for meta lisp. So inhibits that one.

And then finally inhibits carney, paul, metal transfers ACE one now, C, P, T one now that's the end line that regenerates carney, carney. Is the shuttle mechanism by which you get the a fat asses from the outer medical roo membrane through to the inner medical roo membrane, so that they can be beta oxidize for energy. So if you don't have that C C P, T one, you're basically quantity less, and therefore you can generate a bit oxy ation. He said.

photos inhibits all three, these animals, tic pathways. As a bio gist, I have to ask you, how potentially does IT inhibit them? I mean, because there's there are drugs that block receptors, and then there are drugs that block receptors within unbelievable affinities. So, you know, I mean, mechanistically in a dish, meaning in viro, you can see all sorts of things. But how significant is this for like for obesity, for meta atrial function in vivo in us.

So you the dose determines the poison, right? Parcells is fifteen thirty seven. Um there are toxins that are parts per billion and will kill you like seron rice. And by the siona, I is a good analogy because it's working on meta country is basically causing my a central to be completely defective, right then there are intermediate talks like a carbon core parts per million, and they take a little longer to work than kill you on the spot.

That's why I can need an apple seed that has a little bit of arsenal ic but i'm not onna die right?

And then finally there and by the tobacco smoke goes on there and then finally you have um uh weak toxins, right? You know where it's not one exposure that i'll kill you if you know ten thousand .

exposure .

that will kill you like .

alcohol for toxic people. Curry sometimes don't mildly toxic people.

Anyway, the point is that fractus is in that last category. So it's not what you do one day that tells you. It's what you do every day that kills you.

And if you basically eat ultra cess food high in sugar for ten years in a row, it's gonna show up in terms of your commodity ties. And ultimately, yeah, I will kill you. And we have the data to show you know how many years you will lose.

So right now in america, we pay an eight year lung evy tax. If you look at japan, who are, they have a mean age of death of a diet. We have a mean age of eighty.

okay? We're paying an eight year lunch ety text just by living here. And we're talking about the healthy people. Now if you have metal bolic syndrome, it's a fifteen year lunch evy text and a sorry, a few obesity of fifteen year lungeing ity text.

And if you have metal box syndrome, me, it's a twenty year lunch evy text that is primarily not complete but primarily sugar. It's also you know make IT six years. It's also transfers you know left over because now they're gone. But you know people who still suffering the ravages of the transacts you from the previous generation or are they gone?

I mean, I do remember as a kid when we had marge international refrigerator. This is actually a big debate in my home. One parent I won't identify which was pro margert, the other was pro butter, anti margin, the marriage last, but there were other reasons.

That's probably what I went. Butter, butter, butter is fine. In fact, time declared. You know, front cover bottles back you know, margin was the bad guy with out question and we know now.

But you know, back when we thought I was a calorie was a calorie, we thought, oh, margin, you know, it's the same you know nine colors program and we said IT lower your triglycerides bad idea that was because what I did was IT lined your liver because you couldn't break that trans double mind and um you know so there they're now gone from our food people. They are illegal. They're legal, they're band, but you can make trans fast in your own kitchen by taking olio il and hitting IT to beyond the smoking point.

So they're not completely gone. They're just gone from ult R A process food. So now sure, there is the big problem because of these three assigns that you are inhibiting. The point is we we started this with a calories, a calory. Well if you are inhibiting my a country function and the calorie is not .

a calorie is IT, you're reducing the um .

intensity of the fairness. Yeah exactly. So this whole calories and calorie just makes no sense. And IT hasn't worked at any level. And there is no study that actually shows that cutting calories makes a difference. And I can show you volumnia data that shows that virtually every weight loss study that cause that LED to, you know, color restriction basically didn't work, not for any links that time.

Just to round out our earlier discussion, because I find IT fascinating, and I know other people will as well, talked about that hundred and sixty calories. That's actually hundred and thirty at the business end of things of omens. We talked about the porter house stake with butter and the twenty five percent reduction in what's actually quote and quote eaten.

And i'll get back to this because this quote, quote issue, I think the promise there is, there is a lack of useful language to sociate this stuff, you know, even just calling fat, fat people. Think of me, it's gna make your game. But that total, if we call the ad POS tissue in lipids, we not would have avoided this confusion. So I I don't want to get there just yet.

but I want to make sure the food industry does this on purpose. Oh, absolutely. So they tell you a sugar as a, which is not true.

They tell you a calories, a calorie, which is not true. And they tell you a fat as a fat, which is not true. K, this is very specific.

S so when you're talking about sugar, you're talking about dietary sugar. Are you talking about blood share? Because blood is blood blue coast?

Or can I never use ditti collector or circulating .

collection ol, or absolutely. So we've done this. Um no h to ourselves, but the food industry has really promote ted IT because we formed out nutrition policy and information to the food industry so they actually use this for their purposes. One of the problems in this field, i'd like to take .

a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called ag one, is a vitamin, mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking athletic Greens since two thousand and twelve, so i'm delighted that you're sponsoring the podcast.

The reason I started taking athletic Greens, in the reason I still take out the Greens once or usually twice a day, is that IT gets to be the probiotics that I need for good health. Our god is very important, is populated by got microbiome that communicate with the brain, the immune system and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health. And those probiotics and athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiota health.

In addition, athletic Greens contains a number of adaptations, vitamin minerals, that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met and IT tastes great. If you'd like to try athletic Greens, you can go to athletic Greens dot com slash huberman and theyll give you five free travel packs that make IT really easy to mix up athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, at sea, and they'll give you a year supply of vitamin d 3k two。 Again, that's athletic Green stock comes slash huberman in to get the five free travel packs in the year supply of vitamin three k two for the third category macro uta es carbo hydrates he differentiated glue coast and fractus. If I am just, let's say, a half a bag since we determine new york west is they claim it's the water whatever IT is, it's different back .

there and it's Better .

half a bagel, let's say two hundred and fifty calories, mostly carbon hydrate. This is an online, no cream cheese, no smear as they call back there. No, no cream cheese, no butter.

No, that thing, just, just thirty calories. So that's what I ate. You're saying that calorie and is not a calorie.

How much of that carbo hero given that it's probably most let's assume it's mostly good, let's do IT this way. Yes, is is a blue blue coast. How much of that is actually utilized or burn versus um you know the original fifties?

So if you look at what happens to energy in the body, sixty five percent of that which is ingest ted goes to resting energy expenditure just to power the body. Ten percent goes to the thermo c effective food and then twenty five percent goes to activity. That's the break down of where the um energy goes .

and that's calories from fat.

protein and from everything together. And you know glue cos a perfectly good example of how that works. The point is though that when you and just glue cose, you're getting a big glucose excursion in your bloodstream so you're getting a big glucose Spike and that look of Spike has to come down.

Well, what makes IT come down? The hormonal insulin? Insulin is the bad guy in this story. The hire your glue cos goes, the more your pen crews will release insulin in order to bring that glucose down. Well, turns out that glucose rise was not bony, that rise LED to antithetical disfunction trains in, but nonetheless antithetical disfunction.

Could you just remind people what end .

thereof cells are inside of your arteries? Kay and I will change blood pressure. We ve got plenty of data to demonstrate how are changes blood pressure and over time, that will cause Carry artery disease, that will cause kidney disease is set.

But it's the insulin response that is really the bad guy. Now people think insulin is good because IT lower blood glue cos after all, diabetics take insulin, you know, to lower their blood glucose. Okay, let's take a diabetic patient with diabetes.

Blood trigger three hundred. That's bad. We get a shot of vince in in the ARM.

Butcher er goes down to one hundred. Butcher went from three hundred to one hundred. Okay, where did the two hundred points of blood glue cos go?

I'm assuming that the insulin was request .

red IT to wear.

I'm assuming to deliver .

to the fat interest .

for storage .

as instant's job instant takes whatever you're not burning and put IT into fat for storage. Insuing is not the div tes ormond insuing is the energy storage. hormonal.

How quickly does IT do that quick? Because if having a very busy day, where the diabetic person is having a very busy day, they're moving around a lot. Then you ve got insulin bound blue coast in the bloodstream for.

no, no insurance doesn't bind glucose insulin buds to its recept and allows for glucose change so so but .

for some period of time while that person is active, there's an opportunity to utilize that glue cose well yeah right um so how quickly is insulin managing that glue cose? We know that the spite comes down quickly, but the glue cose is not available for energy utilization after what is a special to the add opposed to the fat issue within an hour. So about .

ninety minutes. Yeah but I mean if you're active, if you eat um you know um uh uh a muffin and you're active, kay, your muscles are going to take up that glucose irrespective of insuing. In fact, muscles are insulin independent.

They have books, transporters, but they are insane dependent. Because if fate weren't, then every patient and dietetic to aedas would be paralysed OK. So glue cos will end up in muscles irrespective of energy status and a insulin status, and in muscles .

as that to use as immediate fuel. And like agen.

both OK IT is full and black age and storage o in the muscle, absolutely right now. If you're active, then you'll clear lucas in the muscle. Therefore your blood luc cos won't rise as much because IT went in to muscle and therefore your pancreas will put out less ison because IT doesn't have to clear as much from the bloodstream.

And that's okay. That's good, right? But let's say you did exercise, so you've got a big glucose excursion.

Now you have a big insulin response, and that instant is going to take the excess that in your blood IT has to clear IT and IT will go to fat for storage. That insulin rise turns out to be particularly egregious in terms of metabolite disease. And I can prove that there is a mouse, my favorite mouse.

I love this mouse. This mouse turns medicine on its head and teaches every doctor why they have to go back to medical school and learn IT. right? This mouse is called the pedicle mouse.

P O D I R K O is discovered by Peter co. No, no is discarded. Wrong cons lab was manufactured in wrong cons lab. So this is a tissue specific insula receptor .

knockout mouse. I R O N A C kidney kiddy prodigal.

the marilla prototype insulin receptor knock out.

we having talked too much about transgenic models in cked and knockout, so in ten seconds or less, basically these are mice that are genetically engineered to lack the reception for insurance, specifically in the gomeral .

protest site. The kidney.

in the kidney and everywhere else in this mouse, england does its thing Normally, exactly. great.

So these animals are you, glass mic, Normal blue e coast levels. These animals are Normally glue tolerant. To go up, they go down, just like every other mouse.

These mice are not fat. These mice are not thin. These mice are mice, except they have the worst diabetic neopets y .

on the planet. So, oh, their kidney is degenerated.

Their kidney is degenerate to nothing. Yes, now they have Normal blood blue cose levels. They have Normal blue coast tolerance.

They have Normal insulin tolerance. Whole body, but they are kidneys are dying. How come can be the glucose is the insurance? Because insurance, the bad guy. Insurance actually making the kidney disease. And so these animals that are instant resistant, they have diabetic neopets y without diabetes.

So the incident is having a negative, clearly negative, effect on the kidney's without binding to the receptor example. So circulating insulin can do stuff without binding to its its receptor.

Well, it's no bines to its receptor in different parts of the body.

Other parts of the body can't.

It's because it's not out, right? The point is insuing does stuff by itself, and IT turns out insulin drives growth. Now, every cell in your body wants to burn at one time in his life and wants to grow at another time in life.

Every cell has those two pathways, burning grove, burning growth. What determines whether cell should be burning or whether a cell should be growing? I don't know .

what makes IT burning, but president ly to them, has only do with my country that .

has everything to. So every cell needs to burn and needs to grow at a different time and life. Here's a way to think about IT.

We all start out as as I go at a single cell. We end up an adult. Now that single cell had to become two cells.

Those two cells had to become four cells. Those four cells had to become eight cells, and on and on, and on and on. So every cycle there's doubling. How many doubling to get from a eeg o to an adult? What's an .

exponential growth? So yeah, I I don't know IT off the top of my head.

forty one, forty one, forty one. Two of the forty one doubling with an and is ten trillion cells .

were ten trillion. Do we know that?

Yes.

okay.

Two of the forty one, okay, okay. Now of those forty one doublings, some of them had to occur in Eudora. Some of them had to occur post.

So I need two numbers that add up to forty one. How many unusual? How many personally?

What way more you start off with, a lot more than you end up with. But then you have sells that turn over throughout the lifespan. This is a tough one OK. Because skin cells turn over with neurons.

It's prety straight forward because you're going to somewhere between and ten, right? You're and you're born with somewhere between three and ten acts of what you end up with depending on the brain structure. So but for whole body wide, I don't know how .

you'd come up with that number. Thirty six and five, okay, thirty six doubling pronando five doubtings postnatal. And I can prove that to you too.

Typical baby, wait, seven pounds for doubling for teen pounds. Second doubling twenty of eight pounds. Six doubling fifty six pounds. Next stumbling hundred twelve pounds. Next tumbling two hundred twenty .

four pounds and B S. there. And not not all people you want to are robbers, but some people who are certain heights or below two hundred robes. Okay.

point is the cell has to know when to grow and when to burn IT turns out that the signal for that is oxygen. Because oxygen necessary from by the country to be able to burn. In the absence of oxygen, the cell only knows how to grow.

This is actually why OTA war back won the noble prize in one thousand nine hundred and thirty one for the war ber effect. He asked the question, how come cancer cells don't need oxygen to grow? And the answers, because no sell these oxygen to grow.

In fact, oxygen is the thing that prevents growth. Famous article from the new england journal of medicine, one thousand and fifty one, mount everest in utero, because every feat is oxygen deprived. So Normal partial pressure of oxygen, hundred millimeters mercury out here, right? If if I check your blood, be about a hundred, right? I hope so. How about a tumor cell?

Um guess tumor cells probably is a double about .

forty four. Wait.

you just special pressure .

of a oxygen in the tumor, about forty four.

We used to told me that tumor cells which grow like wild.

right? They grow like wild because they don't have oxygen.

But but there's some of the so here's what's peculiar about IT tumor cells are some of the most vascular cells tumors are are hard. I mean, I mean one way to one way .

to try to you know genesis inhibition of big deal folkman and all that from harvard.

you know so the access blood to a tumor is the attempt to bring an oxygen. It's not getting that's right as opposed to delivering lots of oxygen. That's why it's growing.

That's right. okay. But feed is what's the partial pressure in the presence of six to thirty one.

So it's actually like a mile above manifest. That's how much oxygen the fears gets. And it's for that reason that you've got thirty six dublins. And then as soon as you're out, you know, you cut the cord and you start breathing. And now your partial pressures at one hundred, that's when gross slows down.

Has there been any effort to treat tumors by oxinate tumors? yes. What does that look like?

It's hyper bo xy gen. And therapy is a thing. Oh yeah.

yeah, yeah. We we'll probably do an episode on hyperberetaeus. The reason we haven't yet is it's pretty nationed to IT, but the people who own these things, who sit in these things, um okay so we got here by way of by way of carpet, by the ball right .

um .

so I just want to to us um the you just have two honor of the calories, the big go. We talked about glue cose.

But is that insulin rise that is driving the capacity and also also driving the growth, okay, in the absence of oxygen? Because if you have oxygen, then you don't need that much insulin.

Okay, so because you're onna .

burn instead of store.

got IT in terms of the the are the rome's abolish m of carbo hydrates though that glue cose, if I eat two hundred fifty calories, a glue cose how much of that I did, I couldn't go actually eat. How much is is used much? You yeah this assume that i'm i'm at my desk working or i'm walking around a little bit. I'm not exercising hard in in subsequent hour.

So used for what is the question .

back to the cale is the cause of no be based on the processing of different types calories. We establish fact, the omas west sTyler ship for protein, the porter house with button. And now where we're trying to stylish that for the two hundred, hundred and fifty calories of a bao.

which is glue cose, right? So the glue cose has to be fun for related. So you going to lose uh in the atp in the process. So you can go atp goes to A D P, and then that A D P will go to A M P and is in monopoly a, which will then go to I M P and oita manifest ate, which will then go to york. And that you said will be then released from the cell, circulate in the bloodstream, hopefully go out in the kidney in the process that eua can inhibit ma contro function, and they can also inhibit in defero nitro oxide syn n face, which is the ensign in your vasculature, that is your indulgence, ous blood pressure lower by spanning .

blood vessels and capers, exactly right. This is the mechanistic CS foundation of the drugs that were originally used for improving prostate function, but are used to treat rect dst function, which are the the p, which allow neta oxide to be around longer and more of IT. right? People use IT for other purposes too. I'm now known to forget if I kw IT up.

Without that example, we in the newton intensive care unit, IT, closes patent ductor arteriosa, which is a big deal in in the new uh world okay.

I won't ask you but but um so I heard two things. One is that glucose and the insulin that goes with IT increases europe ID euric. Well IT has certain important functions in health. Too much of IT you say can inhibit natural oxx IDE can hide.

So that means that the blood vessels .

in couples are going to stay more constricted so blood pressure is gonna higher than that would be Normally. And then europe acid is also inhibiting metal construal function. That's right. okay. Um but eating half of bio isn't necessarily a terrible thing if it's within your choric .

requirement. And that all depends on how much you clear and how high your insulation goes.

Now let's compare that two hundred and fifty calories of glucose to two hundred fifty calories of fractus, right? Uh, let's let's come up with the food example. Two hundred fifty calories of front s would be trivial to consume in the form of high fractus corn serve.

right? So remember, the high fractus corn serve is half glucose high. R O O K, to be one five.

one five so let's not use that well so let's assume um so we expect about a soda for uh to get that that uh two hundred forty calories easily, especially if it's .

not a can or a european size body.

okay. So he want to kind of soa um and maybe IT let's include a food item to talk like a storbuk package cookie. Couple warriors, two warriors OK now I get you to that two, fifty or maybe four or to be three or years, okay? Orio lovers everywhere .

celebrating three.

two and three calories of four tos. What's the effect on your k acid? What's the effect on Clark burn? What's the effect on anything for that matter that we should be aware of.

right? So first of all, the oil has plenty fractus and so give that in mind OK the um if let's say you consumed uh two hundred fifty calories in a ball because that's pretty much preliminary lucas versus say the soda so the bo versus .

the soda that's which equivalent calories equivalent calls or the bo versus last two orioles and a little bit of um and yeah .

two warriors o so number one, there's only half the google cose in the soda because the other half is the first tos, someone twenty five or twenty five. So your glucose rise won't be as high. Your google excursion will be lower.

This is actually one of the reasons why there is this thing called gassy c index in asma index is a is garbage IT is complete. Other bs the glass mic index, absolute B S nothing nothing is more um um aggregation in terms of uh argument, then then the glasses of index. And this is one of the things that dieticians as promote, and a spouse, one of the things that got to go. This is an idea that must die.

Okay, we'll get back to why the good semi index has gotta die. But so, so that two hundred fifty calories, and actually, can we, can we make these equal just for sake of of simplicity? Can we say two hundred forty calories of glucose, the big this two hundred hundred and fifty calories of fractus.

How do we get two hundred and fifty calories of pure fractus? We don't. You can't. Okay, you got to bring the lab fractus.

You have to .

make IT as which is a half glue cos hoping S I mean.

there is no foco s alone in nature.

even crackers, some of the ones that are salty are also they have to yeah tos answer yeah that's why it's impossibly, if you just want indeed .

um so what happening?

Biochemically as a consequence of the fotos components specifically.

So will first of all go into the in teston. The in teston will meet abilities. Some of that fractus through what is known as in testing al, the novel lipids ISIS, about ten percent of that fotos will be turned into fat, right? In the interest in.

And that's because fro s IT just wants to be fat.

Yeah, fractus wants to be fat. Fractus is the epigenetics substrates here.

We're not talking about body fat. We're talking about fat molecules that can potentially .

be used as energy, that molecules, so ten percent of fractus will be turned into triggers, right right in the interesting, and be released into the bloodstream. And that is the reason for a post prandial triggers IDE response.

Post deal is and including myself in this group is nerd speak for after eating large IT, typically it's large.

And so that's actually one of the drivers of cardiff. Asked lar pathology that in testing al the oval ipod iis turning that fructus into triggers ride right in the industry. Now there's a limit to how fast and how much the investing can do that. The rest of fractus will be a absorbed into the portal vein, but not before some of that. Fractus will make IT further down, and they will night trade tight junction proteins.

the way of the kidney. What do I engages to deliver?

Portal vin goes from the visual, from the industry .

to deliver.

No dog, no interesting deliver. Okay, okay, but fractus night traits, tight junction proteins. And let me explain that two audience, your in testing is a sour definition, the sour a pipe with shipment.

Okay, that's a suit. Our in testers are sus. There's drunk in the center. And the job of the industry is to move the junk through to the annis, absorbing the good stuff.

Why you can the in tested is made up of cells in testing al epithelial cells that are bound together and they're bound with proteins that basically form a barrier. Those barriers are all tight junction proteins. Sounds like cloud in and things like that. Design milan is the only one that they're others, but design olin is the one that goes is defective and silly accies.

What defines a high junction is IT, that is, I completely impervious or .

semi premium, completely impervious o unless its function is inhibited. Turns out, if you alter the fast relation status or the night trade status of that tight junction, IT will become transients tly premiere OK. And so fractus night trades tight junction proteins, causing them to be transiently premiere, allowing some of the junk in your in teston to get through into your bloodstream.

So this is leaky gut. This is leaky gut. This is what causes leaky got proto is a driver of leaky gut got .

IT that causes inflation .

tion at the level of the liver, which ultimately leads to systemic inflammation of the reasons why high sensitive C R P sensitivity. C R P is high in patients who eat ulto processor.

C R P is c reactive protein, which is a marker of a city inflame response. You don't want IT too high and ninety .

percent of americans today are inflamed.

Does that mean that ninety three percent of americans have leaky guts?

Yeah, IT does. Because that's where .

comes from. So in addition to limiting fractal .

and take .

what are things that support the tight junctions of of the instal pathway.

So there are three barriers in your in teston to keep the junk where up belongs in the center so that I can get pumped out the you're behind alright? Three separate barriers. One is a physical barrier called the museum layer.

So it's a layer of mucus that actually sits on top of the and testing athel yourselves. Now that musing is a polysaccharides, and the bacteria can use that muslim layer for its own purposes. IT will eat your musical layer if you don't feed your bacteria.

You must feed your bacteria, or your bacteria will feed on you. Kk, so you are in concert with your microbiome. If you deprive your microbial of the food that IT needs, IT will use you as its food. And that's one of the reasons why fiber is so important.

So fiber to build up this music layer is one way to reinforce the, the, the fence that that is, the tight junctions eta between your interesting in the bloodstream. This is an interesting point about fasting. Many people, including myself, do a sort of suda intermit and thing.

I eat my first meal somewhere between eleven and new on, and i'm not strict about this, the eleven versus new thing and party my last bite of foods where around APP medication orally. It's outside the window. I've done this for a long time. I just feels best to me, right? Other people use a shorter eating window.

One thing that I learned from a colleague yell, the studies that got microban ome that was surprising to me is that when you do, when you eat in that way, there is a long stretch of time, sometimes longer, for people that have a shorter eating window, longer fasting window, that is now where you're actually eating up your own intestinal lining. So this idea that fasting is so great for us, on the one hand, might be true. On the other hand, you you're actually consuming components of you. You're not feeding, you're got microbes on and you delete IT. But then here's where I was positively surprised when you do eat, provided that you eat enough fiber and impartial ler high quality for mental foods lotion inform ted foods IT seems that the the lining of the gut and the gut microbial is replenish to a level that is greater than if you had eaten for longer periods of the twenty four hour cycle.

Yeah, I have that right. You do have IT right. And I don't know why that is true, but that does seem to be the case. Informative foods, in part because they've got already shortening fatty asses in them to .

prefer food of microbe.

Well, it's what the microbiome actually turns fiber into. So it's probably helping your industrial epithelial cells in the same way when the microbes O O E turning fiber into short chain vases helps. So it's what we call a post biotic.

So you have prebiotic, which is the food for the bacteria. You have the biotic, which is the bacteria itself, and you have the post biotic, which is what the bacteria make in order to heal you. okay? And so short chain fatty acid are post biotics, and there are lot of people selling short chain fatty assets, no drinks and supplements. And what happen, whether they work or not, is another story.

If I consume fotos in the form of, let's say, a highly processed as minimal anti oxide dance, but got many of calories typically ah yes, and it's disrupt in the tight junctions making my god leaky. But i'm also eating fiber, yes, you know i'm having A A meal that includes a salad i'm having having some probiotics and then I wanted like a couple resist being about our cups in the dark chocolate ones in particular.

I don't do this anymore, but I used to at like that more often as as time has gone on becomes I don't like to got stricter, but more I attend to like healthier foods over time. And I think you can get away with different things, different stages of alive. Although you work with Young people, so get to very Young people, so will get to this. But how how much the image you are doing by ingesting any fractus in the form of a highly processed.

So i'll make a very simple Andrew, I am for dessert. For dessert, I am not for dessert, for breakfast, lunch, snacks and dinner. So if you want to have a couple of raises, peanut buttercups as your dessert in the same way as you might have a connect for dessert, that's fine. I have no problem with that. The question is, are you going to eat reasons peano putter cups for breakfast?

No, I don't need breakfast. But no, I D see your point.

The national school breakfast program, which twenty nine percent of school children today consume, is a bullet fruit loops in the glass of hunches. That is forty one grams of sugar. American heart association says that the upper limit for children should be twelve grams of added sugar per day. That's forty one grams of added sugar, and it's just .

breakfast. And that's fotos rich.

totally, completely. So the question is, which desert or we talk .

in about and right and can we can we adjust that morning meal um to a different reality because I agree that there are plenty of kids eating that to a muffin that might be the equivalent. But what about the parent whose as okay, let's come up with a healthy option that the kids still likes like i'm taking back to my childhood like a honey, not cherie s or something. So not fruit loops, which is kind of the extreme.

Take a look at the side of the pack.

No different. Now let's say they go with some like waffles that are made so with a with a premit a mix, some milk, some water um you know so mom or dad is making waffles great sounds healthier. But then if you do the breakdown, we're still ending up IT very high. Are we just eating .

desert for breakfast? We eating ego waffles. We making waffles, the novo you from scratch in your own kitchen that, let's say, make difference, okay?

Because the ego waffles, you know, repeat with sugar on purpose, because the food street knows when they add IT, you buy more because is addictive. Kk, and we actually have the um uh uh demographic, the mechanistic, the imaging and also the economic data to demonstrate that sugar addictive. And the food industry knows that.

So have ever heard of a phenomenon called Price elasticity. Priceless ticket is an economic term that is used to ask the question, if the Price of a given good goes up by one percent, that should result in reduction in purchase or consumption. Because Price influences consumption, how much does IT influence IT? So if it's if something's Price elastic, when the Price goes up, consumption goes down.

Equivalently a food that is Price elastic. The most Price elastic food is eggs. So when the Price of eggs goes up one percent, consumption of eggs goes down point six eight percent, meaning that eggs have a Priceline ticket of point three two.

Got IT, got IT. Now what's the most Pricey tic food? The top three most Price inelastic foods are fast food cereal. Point one, I like a good quiz as we point eight one um uh uh soft drink at point seven nine and juice at point seven seven.

Meaning people will pay not whatever, but they are. They're willing to pay more, more more readily, willing to pay more because of the sugar.

because it's addictive, because it's hedon. ic. So many, many years ago, Andrew, you probably remember something called cazi and economics. And casey and economics was based on this concept of the rational actor. And the rational active can determine value, which is utility over cost.

And if you're a rational actor, you should be able to say, yeah, i'll buy that, but I won't buy that, right? okay? In nineteen seventy nine, Daniel canon and a first sky nobel prizes winner, danel canon, described the irrational elector.

Now the irrational actor cannot determine value, and the reason is because he is risk averse. So the cost is always too great. So the utility may be the same, but the cost goes up because that's why they have, you know, aversive tendencies is the irrational lector.

Jeffery sax has described the hidden ic actor who also cannot determine value because he doesn't matter what IT cost. They need their fix. And this is what's going on, and the food industry knows that, and that's why every food in the store has been Spiked.

We talked about desert for breakfast in the form of cereals and some of which are um disguised or couch as healthier. You know, I think of black ony material that seems healthier than fruit looks. IT looks healthier like the court, just by way of color.

IT looks kind of wiv color. So, but let in in terms of lunch, I mean, one of the things that I love about europe is that the birds are amazing. Yeah, a terrific.

And I and I like them because they are not a sweet exactly. And so a sandwich from not every delhi, but from a typical swich shop that one makes with store about bread, slice bread in the U. S.

Has a lot of friction. I D, I looked this up prior to discussion today. So in some ways, desert is being woven into foods that are that parents and our kids, everyone thinks our savery are. We're actually using suits exactly right. But we don't taste them as sweet at a conscious level necessarily.

Our taste birds to do right. That's exactly right. So the question is, why do they do that? So question for audience, you buy a loaf of bread at the local Bakery. How soon before IT stales?

Two days to the best? Yes, if it's really great bread.

that's right, the Better of the bread, the quicker tails. You buy a lot of bread at the a neighbourhood grocery store. How soon before IT tails you've .

got probably a week. And then there's a mulder pieces at the end that you truck that you know if you're in college and you are me trying to .

have that all I can last up to three weeks depending right?

You can throw in the freezer. Yeah, I do that with the Bakery bread, but it's never the same. This never.

So the question is, why is that? The answer is sugar. The answer is sugar. So the grocery store bird had sugar attitude on purpose, because when you bag IT, the sugar does not have APP ate IT stays in the bread and the sugar is hygroscopic c meaning IT holds on to water. This is a phenomenon that the food industry uses called water activity k.

And so IT will hold onto water, and so I will stay spongey and will not stale as quickly as the Bakery store bread, which did not have that sugar added to IT. So even something as beni as bread has been turned into something that ultimately leads to chronic metabolic. Ase.

we've pivoted subway from carbon hydrate divided into glue cos and frick tos.

To a discussion of sugar, could you tell us the link between sugar and fractus? So table sugar, what percentage of table sugar is fotos? What percentage of Brown sugar is fractus, what percentage of the sugar that added to food is high? Fractus courts are on average, not just because here what we're talking about is what you're describing as an intentional lacing of food with something that's addictive, but that's also process very differently at the level the kidney, at the level of the liver.

And it's bad. It's a bad, a bad situation. So so when we talk about sugar, I think we need to be as careful in describing what we really mean as when we talk about the gallery.

I completely great. So for your audience, let's be very, very clear on definitions. Let's not use the word sugar because IT has multiple definitions.

Let's use sucres. So course is what you put in your coffee is the Crystals. It's cane sugar, beach sugar.

You know the, you know the stuff that teases bones of right. This was all that was available for many, many years. That is, one molecule glucose, one molecule of fructose, bound together for the chess out there.

An og like acidic linkage. Hi the N I, in your testing called super leaves, this old liquid tic linkage in about a nano second, you absorb the two molecules separately. The glucose goes to the entire body, generates in the next month, the fractus goes straight to your liver, generates fat.

That's sugar high fractus corn syrup is essentially one molecular goose, one molecular frontis, not bound together, no old glaciered language. So they're free. The end time to craze doesn't care, because the blonds already broken.

Ultimately, they do the same thing. And that's why hy frick OS corn serve. And success are in distinguish. What they are is they're very different economically. And the reason is because high fracture concerts, half the Price of success, because suit cross we get from importing, and high factors concert we make at home.

Sucrose is in bags high for to corn server is in barrels, so crows you can sell at the store, high fotos corn syrup you sell to the you ultrapure food manufactured, you can buy hydro s concert at the you know at the grocery store. So they're very different in terms of what they're used for. High factors. Corn serve is particularly gradual because it's so missions because it's already a liquid. So you've probably remember chips ahoy, cookies in the old days that they would often would seem like the sugar in the a cookie had Crystalized because the sugar content was so high.

It's been well since i've had one that they weren't particularly good yeah now but you eat two of them and then you think they're good and then you want to eat for that's what so all the first bite is like the and then it's bombs away you.

but now it's tuy chips of my cookies, I remember. Member, well, that's high for to concert because because the two molecules are free, they don't Crystalize. So you can actually up the dose.

Several times throughout today's discussion, you've been talking about the current court food industry. And so i'm not a conspiracy, but I know but I understand you know that most businesses exist to make money there. Many businesses start off with good intentions and drift in order to stay to stay competitive.

And many, many businesses as we know um not all of which are entirely bad such as the pharmaceutical industry, right? They're bad. Their intentions of like the O P I crisis.

But then there are drugs from the pharmaceutical industry that help save lives. I mean, that's my myself and um the food industry. And I think they're good actors and they're bad actors, but which i'm about the food industry here.

okay. Well, we think about the exercise industry. We think about the podcast industry. I mean, you got good actions and bad actors, but what you valued to several times here, and you're more informed than I am, is A A A concerted effort to lace food with a formal sugar that makes people crave more of that food.

And that is causing meta lic illness, disrupting medica and on and on exactly and you're the physician, not me. Um you've worked with patients who struggle obesity and for various reasons um not me. And so we could probably spend hours if not, there is talking about all the terrible things that the food industry is done.

But what do you think is the the pure motivation, right? I don't think that they want people to be sick, but they want to sell product, and this sells more product. So then IT raises two questions, if, why is IT that more people don't know about know this information, although many more will know after day's conversation.

But and certainly in government is a mix regardless of what side of the isle. You're honor, if you're right in between. There are clearly people that care about the health of themselves and other.

So I can understand how things might have gotten to this point, but what do you think of the barriers to getting people to appreciate just what a problem this is and and getting people to change their choices in terms of what they are eating? Are they truly addicted to the point where they are sick? They can make good decisions like a, like a drug act was highly addicted to her and is a sick person. They have an illness and they need treatment. But until they get that treatment, they can't make good decisions.

Let's take an analogy. Alcohol, forty percent of americans or tea totals .

never touch a stuff great. I'm not a big fan of alcohol. I've never seen to make anyone Better. Anything that really mattered? No, because except drinking and that doesn't really matter.

Vestigial, there's no biochemical reaction. And the body that requires alcohol OK for the same reason, by the way, for us um forty percent of social drinkers yeah can pick up a beer, put IT down. I'm in that category, ten percent of danger drinkers and ten percent chronic alcohol S O now do you deprive the forty percent of social drinkers because of the twenty percent of binge drinkers in chronic alcoholic?

No, I believe people should be in choice, but I believe people should know what they are doing so that they can be in choice. Well, right, like doing you, I would say. And I said this about the alcohol episode turned out to be one of our most prolific episodes where I said, you know, more than two drinks is eroes Better than any and more than two drinks per week. You you need to do other things to host at that and it's problematic. That's those what the data say, but I but I would say do as you want, but know what you're doing well.

So I would say that that's exactly what the food industry wants you to think that that is the food industry y's montreal is you have your own choice, personal responsibility. So the question is this personal responsibility work and the answers no IT doesn't every a public health tobacco in the history of mankind started, I was a personal health that should be before became a public health crisis.

And you can pick your um you personal responsibility issue, whether IT be exposure, whether IT be addictions, whether IT be infections. Bottom line is ultimately IT required a societal response. Kay, we can talk about civilis.

We can talk about tuberculosis, ultimately needed a public health response. We can talk about uh team pregnant y, we can talk about tobacco. Tobacco ultimately needs a public health response because the sheer enormity of IT and the uh the agreement ness of IT requires that public health response, well, turns out this is no different.

In order to exercise personal responsibility, four criteria have to be met. Those four criteria are the following. Number one, knowledge you have have the knowledge because if you don't have the knowledge and how can you exercise personal responsibility? Well, in fact, the public being kept from the knowledge. We're doing this now in part to in, you know, to entrain that knowledge to to get people to understand what the problem is yeah but I can .

see myself pretty informed about nutrition and health. But already today i've learned two dozen facts about processing a fractus calories generally that I had no knowledge of prior.

That's good. Okay, because it's not about the math, it's about the science OK. They wanted to be about calories.

So we have this thing called food science, we have this thing called nutrition, and we have this thing called meta la health. They're not the same. Food science is what happens to food between the ground and the mouth. Nutrition is what happens to food between the mouth and the cell. Meta bola health is what happens to put inside the cell. But all of the chronic diseases that we are suffering from, type two divides, hypertension, disliked the demo, cardiff disease, cancer, dementia, flir disease, positive covering disease, those disease which make up seventy five percent of health care expenditures in this country today. Are all inside the cell because they are all made a central dis function, and there is no medicine that gets to the might a country .

a although you and others at stanford, harvard at sea are starting this with a metal abc. Psychiatry being one instance, right? And u csf as well for giving you mentioned u csf up your home institution, wonderful institution, right off the road from stanford.

So you know, things are changing. People are starting to think about my digital help. okay. So you list up the first, the first thing you said, there are four things that stand out.

First one was knowledge OK. Second, access. Because if you don't have access, then how can you exercise persons .

respons sibly access to healthier alternatives? Exactly, which means cost effect? I mean, I love barriers from the farm er's market more than I love barriers from the store. I love the farmers markets journal. But IT takes time, energy to go there.

And the costs is actually lower at the level of what you hand the vender typically, right? But volume is tough to achieve, right? They actually have me at a at a quote or not allowed to buy as many berries as I want because obvious there are other people who want worry. So there's that right? People have to feed their family that you know and we're used to eating a lot of volume.

but you're able to at least go there sometimes.

Okay.

we're talking about people who live in, quote, food deserts. We also talking about people who live in food swamps ay. And when we're talking about food swamps, we're not talking about and plethora of healthy foods were talking about all the junk.

That's what they, they live in the swamp of junk. So if you live in the swamp of junk, how are you post exercise persons responsibility? Number three, a affordability. So you have to be able to afford choice, and society has to be able to afford choice. And right now, we can't afford choice because health care costs right now are at four point once trillion dollars a year.

But like so many things in behavioral economics and health, it's so hard for people to see that, that the immediate choice is leading to a higher cost down the road. They're just too many nodes of separation for people who realized when i'm reaching for the cereal as opposed to making waffles for my kids from scratch or you know, they're thinking time efficiency, cost efficiency, volume. The kids not throwing tantrums because they are not no longer getting the cereal and it's very difficult to see this is the reason why health care costs are going up.

They're just too many nodes of separation. Couldn't agree more, but ultimately, it's because the government separates and silos um food industry profits from health care costs if you actually combine those because they also me are the same, you would see the problem. So globally, the food industry growes nine trillion dollars a year.

Health care costs globally cost eleven trillion dollars a year. Dietary related health care costs, environmental cost cost seven trillion dollars a year and productivity costs cost one trillion dollars years. So when you do the mass nine minus, eleven minus, seven minus one means that there is a ten trillion dollar year deficit because of us cleaning up the mess of the food industry makes.

And while numbers like not affordable, right? I agree. And while numbers like that land really hard, I find that for myself and for many people, statistics like that are hard to keep in mind.

In a way, there's only me about the human brain that hears that and goes, wow, we're like that war cost that much and this food issue costs that much. Yeah and then we go to the store and we're hungry, right? And the kids are arts are are hungry.

And so those nodes of separation, it's almost like a neural slash memory slash prefrontal cortex issue to me. And of course, I look at everything through the lens of neurobiology. Me too, you know, not everything, most everything.

And so how how could I not? How could we not? But then that the issue is where they're still food on the shelves. And you know and so it's very how what do we do to connect is to bring closer together these notes. So what the government do.

So the question is, is their food on the shelves? Let me finish the fourth one, and then I want to come back to that point. Let me just finish a concept.

So affordability and number four, externalities, your choice can't hurt anybody else, but what if your choice does hurt somebody else? So, like for tobacco, second hand smoke, right? For alcohol, drunk driving.

But what's the argument for teen pregnant y that someone .

else was gonna to raise the kids? exactly. But what about for food? okay.

Well, how about the fact that your employer, stand for university, has to pay two thousand and seven hundred and fifty dollars a per year in obesity related health care expenses that they have passed on to you, even though you're not obese? That is affecting you. So that guy's obesity right there that is affecting you ah.

but there nowadays especially tRicky even to have the conversation i'm willing to have IT now, which is that know that there is a whole concept of fat shaming, right? So somebody y's obese who's fall is IT. And if we even talk about IT, is a are we subject to um attack, legitimate attack, you know so like so calling something someone obese at a clinical level, like having you're an expert in.

don't talk about don't talk about ob city, lets talk about diabetes.

Okay, let's talk a different consequences of obesity.

Yes, let's talk about the meta lic health issue itself OK. The fact is that diabetes is now eleven point four percent of america.

What was IT twenty years ago? I was .

twenty years ago, I was about eight percent.

I was wondering this earlier, twenty years ago, there was a lot more margin and refrigerators, but people were thinner and there was less diabetes. Everything you talk about margin and transfer s is that bad? Bad, bad. Now button is back as time magazine and you said, right? So clearly can't be the transition away from transfers that's increase this city.

No.

no. So it's give me crease in sugar and three and these hidden sugars.

exactly. okay. The key tho is pakistan and india because in china they are not fat, but they have fourteen percent diabetes rates and they're thin. The reason is because of alter processor.

Are there any countries in the world that don't allow hydra to s corn serve, but at least and not at the level that that we do. Oh.

there are free this. okay. There are boatloads of countries that, uh, don't import high fraction n super.

don't make IT. So skin in avian country scan the navy.

an countries most of europe um uh other than the asia pacific rim. So uh, japan has IT. In fact he was invented in japan one thousand and sixty medical school talk a socky at all. Um uh korea has IT um but australia does not have IT, thailand does not have IT, but they have just as much of an uh obesity and diabetes problem as we do because they have so crop's because hydra to coincident sus are no different. So IT doesn't .

really matter that one one .

is the one to one thing exactly a blue cost. So here's the question answer, kay. I so I want to go back to that.

You said all this food is still on the shelves. Is IT food. What is the definition of food?

Can I give the definition? I think most people would give that answer, the one I would I would give, but something that has contains chloro c energy really like that. I I could eat this microphone um but it's not gonna de much useful energy.

The definition of food, straight from the dictionary. And believe me, I looked IT up and memorized that. I believe you, substrate that contributes to either growth or burning of an organism.

interesting. That is the definition of film, free, scientific, one hundred percent correct. Growth or burning.

So any sub straight that passes your lips that contributed their growth are burning. That's food. Okay, let's do IT as do burning first. I just showed you that sugar, which is the marker of virtual process food, and seventy three percent of the items in the grocery store are Spiked to sugar, inhibits burning, inhibits those three ensigns involved in my country of function. Now is still grow. My colleague, doctor, a raught month, and I go or none, who is the chairman of nutrition at hebrid university, germ actually looked at this question and show that enterprises who would actually inhibits growth IT inhibits cortical bone graft that didn't hit IT tobaco lar bone growth and inhibits uh councillors bomb growth and inhibits linear bomb growth IT hijacked growth for cancer because IT inhibits my a country and you have to then grow instead of .

burn and this was worth that was done in in vivo, in vivo vio, in vivo. So these are people that are eating high amounts of highly process, exactly how to find the, the.

the they they found in israel, they found. So bottom line is, if a sub straight does not contribute to growth and does not contribute to burning, is IT a food?

I see answer is no. Well.

that's seventy three percent of what's on the grocery store. So I would argue you said the foods there. No, it's not. That's not. Food, in fact, is consummated.

So this leads to an important question of what's left. You remove all that, what's left just anew tally, and would I sometimes call annic data? And i've had several friends in their forties and early fifties say they want to lose weight and get in shape. And the thing that worked every every single time for them to lose significant amounts of weight quickly and keep IT off, and many of them were already exercising.

But then also incase their exercise was, I just since i'm not a detis an nutrition as anything, I just say eat meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, fruits, you're not going to eat starches, you're not going to drink alcohol, you're not going to drink soda, you can still have coffee to, you can still have artificial sweeteners, I will go get to artificial so little IT. And the reason I say no starches, even though I personally eat rice or meal positive things, that's what some in in moderation, depending on on what sort of exercising on doing in how much is because of the fact of nowaday. Many of those things contain fok tos.

And inevitably everyone of those people is blown away by the fact that IT could not quote works and assumes it's all because of reduced gallery and take overall. And they lose like anywhere from thirty to fifty five pounds and keep IT off. And they like, this is great.

I can actually still eat the by stakes and sale ads and but they're not eating crew. So and so in some sense, IT looks extremely IT sounds key to generic, but it's nothing like that. You're just saying basically stay away from you're eliminating processor oos. You're eliminating liquid calories in in general and on and on. And so there's nothing sophisticated about IT. My question to you is how much of that weight loss effect do you think is a calories in versus calories out effect because they're reading a lot of food and in some cases, and how much of what do you think is the elimination or near elimination of this front s or this glucose for tos combination?

It's nothing to do with the calories. IT has everything to do with the if you get the insulin down, you're not something energy, you to that you you can lose weight. Your fat will give up the the, the triggers right stored in IT as soon as your instant goes down, insuing is pushing on your fcl l all the time.

And as long as your insults up your feet l can't release IT the minute your insulin goes down, you can now engage in what we call like policies. Herman sensitive light pace is an ending in the fat cell that is a inhibited by insulin. As soon as the insults gone, more sensitive light pace can turn that stored triglyphs free file assets angler's and released IT, and you can lose weight.

So get the insulin down and IT all work. So the question is, what makes insulin go up? Well, two things are fine, carbo, hydrates and sugar. Those are the two things that make insane go up.

In addition, branch chain minos, it's make insane go up as well, loosing nice, losing fAiling, which is in corn fed beef, chicken and fish process food. All right, here's here's, here's the deal. In one concept, my colleague thought a Carlos montaria, who was a professor, public health at the university of sale.

Polo has done the world of great service. He has developed a system for category ation of food processing. IT is called the nova system, just means new.

But he is basically categorized every food anywhere in the world into one of four classes. Easiest way to explain this would be an example. Let's take an apple.

Nova class one would be an apple picked off a tree. Nova class two would be apple slices, the stem deceit deskin. maybe.

Another class three would be apple sauce cooked macerated, possibly as preservative added, maybe some extra sugar, maybe not. Nova class for be mcDonalds apple pie. Now, does that mcDonalds apple pie look anything like that? Apple.

no.

Is there even any apple in IT? Maybe a be not maybe a tiy bit. You know it's all flavor enhanced. Its set A K turns out this is epidemiologic data, but nonetheless prospective epidemiologic data.

So it's not that novel class for that ultra process food category, which is seventy three percent of the american grocery store is the class that is associated with all of these chronic mirabile diseases. Know the clash one through three. No problem.

Now when you say associate percentage of one's daily total clerk intake needs to come from nova class four before that statement you just made is true because I love the recommendation you made earlier or that lets you say the the control of a you don't have to avoid dessert. You can enjoy dessert, but don't desert IT other times of day, and maybe don't deserve every single night. And is there a rule that people have to deserve every single?

So the answers about seven to ten percent would be at the upper limit.

So so you can get seven to ten percent of your chloric intake, daily color intake, from these novel class four foods, and still be, still be OK. So this is I just that right? I know it's some very healthy physicians who I used to observe how people in move because I I would pay attention in my our field.

I was like, oh, you know, people around me it's to reduce I S are were successful, else they won't be. There was like, you who looks healthy, who can make IT up the stairs and doesn't have to take the elevator. How much exercise are people doing at a given age? Are they fanatic? You like foreign morning runners? I'm not going to do that consistently.

Must I have to? And I now observe that, you know, many of the healthiest people I know, they move a out during the day. They hate very well. Many of them skip breakfast or lunch, not always. And then I also know that they would drink very little or no alcohol, and then but they would enjoy like a there's one physician and you csf in particularly one of who really enjoyed his dark chocolate kick cat after a launch and you are very ceremonial about the traveling, that the foil and the in the day and like, okay, so you're talking about that small percentage .

of calories if if that if that's all you do, hey, you know, god lush, you but that's not what people are doing. That's the problem. Modem line, that novel class four is where all the action is in terms of chonita diable disease.

So the question, how can you avoid that? How do you know which is which we have a solution? So my colleagues and I have developed a web based tool that is available to the entire world right now.

And you'll put IT in your show now. Yeah, we will put a link to this. Absolutely could perfect P E R F A C T. And you can find that a perfect dot code. And what IT is is, is a recommendation engine, not A I when you're talk about A I in a minute.

But IT is a recommendation engine based on the science of human metabolism that categories foods based on not their neutral content, but on their neta lic effect. And and so there is a nova filter, which will filter out all the nova class for stuff. And IT will go to your grocery store and will tell you what you can buy. That will be a novel class one three, three, which turns out to only be twenty percent of the grocery restore IT .

means basically thing on the street of the grocery in general, yes, produce to meet the dairy.

all the things you mentioned you, in fact. So i'm not low carb, i'm low insuing. And there a lot of ways to get to low insulin, get rid of the refined carbon hydrate, get rid of the sugar, increase the fiber, get rid of the branch chain name.

No accedes. okay. So eating fishes is a good place to be um even eating mistake is OK if it's a past your feed stick. So let's talk about your stick Better for the animals.

right? IT is absolutely .

should you mentioned marbling before? We love our marbling, right we can cut our U S. Grade stakes with the butterfly fe, because there so tender, right? You have been to argentina.

Yeah, my father's argentine tina. They they only know grass stake idea that that cows with anything but grass is sorted, like the idea that would fly absolutely .

new zealand's same thing. okay? The meat is gorgeous, its homogeneous, it's pink. It's the the life of i've been the the media's fantastic.

But you have to use a stick knife, you can use a button and IT takes more chewing and IT takes showing because there's you that it's it's a different experience entirely. It's delicious, but IT is kind of a little that you know tougher. Turns out that marbling is intra bio cellular lipid. That animal has met a bolic syndrome.

the american corn fed.

the american corn fed animal, because that corn is filled with branch chain minos is losing isolation valve branch chain mino acis or what's in protein powder. That's what um you know body builders you know put in their smoothes you know to build muscle. And if you're building muscle, that's okay because twenty percent of the mini assets in muscle or branch chain so um so you know if you've got a place to put you know have at IT, yeah there's a .

need there is working down yeah fine.

But if you're not if you you know again mere mortal like me, you consume those access brand genial assets, they're gonna go to the liver. They are gone to be dem dated like we talked about earlier, and they're going to end up as branch chain organic accepts they're onna flood, the meta country. They might a country are not going to be able to deal with the volume.

And so they're gona divert the access and turn that into fat. And so now you've got hyper trigger ria and chance for fatty liver disease and insulin resistance. So what kind of meat you eat has a lot to do with your medaba caf.

What about the egg? The whole egg near near perfect protein score in terms of its um uh by availability .

um ega terrific OK. There's nothing wrong with ex now there are Better eggs than others so that well there's yellow a yoke eggs and their orange you eggs. What's the difference between a yellow ogg on and orange?

I'm guessing that something about the uh the feed of the the mother chicken um and i'm guessing IT probably also has something to do with calling content .

or maga series are interesting. Okay, the orange uh yoke egg has a lot of mega. Is that what .

are other great sources of mega es? I I know some off the top of my head.

I like to hear IT from you. Okay, so marine life is number one. Okay, you know fish provided .

you're not bring in heavy metals with well.

yes. So I mean, that's always the the argument. You know the question is, is that the mercurial that you might get three on?

Ultimately, I think it's the omega series that is more important. But yes, I do understand the mercury issue. Uh, ultimately, there are three omega trees. There's A A of lena acid, which you can get in vegetables. There is E, P, A, I cos, enter, I know a acid which you can only get marine life fish .

oil called oil.

right? And finally, D, H, A, D, go, go hex ino a, which you also get from marine life, but you can get from algie, so you can get algol oil. Which of the vegans will use?

Do you personally take anything to increase your magazine? Take, I know there's even prescription megastores. I take of your, you take official. Yeah, yeah.

only I only take three supplements.

Okay, i'd let you know with those. I will say that I always, always, always say, behaviors first strike duzen dots, behavioral nutrition, then only if needed in one can afford that. Then supplementation of prescription drugs and have a big consumer of supplements, and always have been very little. So what are the three? So you take fish oil fiscal, and do you take to get above a certain thresh hold of v pa?

About a thousand. Milgram.

I say about .

a grammar. O, K.

I see how much you, a thousand .

milgram day .

you in line is polling.

Yeah well, it's actually for my rose. I've got skin and that help. He helps, helps with that. And and finally, vitamins. Now I will tell you vitamin is a complicated one right now. And we can talk about item d and how either important or nor important that is because there's a there's a cork to item in d and uh um it's it's important for your audience to know about IT because everybody in his brothers you know touting vitamin d cure for everything.

It's funny because that you have your supplement lovers, haters and diagnostics, but vitamin d somehow made IT through the shoot like everyone is like vami d is is really interesting. Somehow vitamin d people are comfortable taking a vitamin d gel cap but like other supplements where you say like maybe um this might be good for, you know like omega trees and vial of them, people are a little bit like more stand office is really interesting that the kind of psycho so show stuff around this. How much right do you personally take?

I take five thousand units day.

okay. So why vitamin .

these complicated though? Here's the problem. If you look at the literature, vitam, indeed deficiency, is associated with all these chonita tabloid diseases.

However, supplementation with vitamin has not fixed any of those. So if you provide him indeed fictional ent, why wouldn't supplementation fix IT? Couple of reasons.

One, one of the reasons provide a indeed deficiencies because everyone's drinking soft drinks. That's one reason. But there's a .

more important reason, a sugar and artificially sweden soft drink yet can deplete vm d you.

well, summer diary, you consuming software.

but I can't tolerate milk and anymore.

Well, yeah, then you take about to do but here's here's the real nugget of truth. And this is a little complicated, but the end china logic and the audience will get IT vitamin is a propre horum. It's not it's not active at all.

Vitamin d is converted in the liver first step to a compound called twenty five hydrox y vitamin that is a program. M IT also is inactive. IT has no activity whatsoever.

Ver, from there. Twenty five, her drug item. Dee can be metabolised one of two ways. IT can either be one alpha hydrox later in the kidney to the active form, one alpha one twenty five day hydrox y vitamin d, which will then do all of the business of vitamins, such as calcium absorption from the gut suppression of the immune system at at all, like receptor four.

That sound like a bad thing. No, that's a good I know, but I had had to bring that up because when you say suppression in the mune system, people are my mural. Suppress nobody that sounds like AIDS a good.

It's suppresses inflation tion got IT. It's a good thing. It's suppressing the information. And that's actually the point that we're getting to. So there are a lot of good things about one twenty five dehydrates y voman d however, that twenty five hydrox y dig that came out of the liver can be metabolize a different way. IT can be twenty four hydrox salted in inflaming tissue like to berki losses are code got inflamed tion.

And so you will end up taking your twenty five drug C D, which is a program, and turning IT into the inactive twenty four twenty five dehydrates I D, which then just gets secreted out. So in other words, you consumed all this vitamin day, and I didn't go where you needed IT to go. And the reason was, because you're inflamed, you have to fix the inflation tion before the vironment.

D can be effective. And ninety three percent of americans are inflamed. So giving them vitamin in d is not going to do a damn thing.

God is reducing fractus. And take the one of the primary ways to reduce systemic information. absolutely. What are some .

others reducing oxtail stress in general? So heavy metals like admin academy is very high. And chocolate, especially south american chocolate. Sorry.

I am not a fan of chocolate. I got occasionally like a little dark chocolate, but so if people are going to eat chocolate, they should be careful how much chocolate they well.

especially american chocolate and chocolate, I mean, are really .

good at this of so many in well.

I can tell you is i've been on the hit list for a decade.

You're just one big target .

yeah that I got it's on my back kick. I already got that um uh there are um the main thing is to make that good work right so fiber short chain fatty acid production from fiber is a huge you moon and reduce inflation tion reduce .

inflation about improving sleep. Is there any evidence that you chronic slight sleep deprivation can increase information?

Well, what I will do is to increase cortisol, and chronically increase cortisol will definitely lead to increase information, which is funny, because cortisol usually considered the entire and fittings, but only acute, right? Chronic cortisol elevation does the opp.

if we can contribute to, I have this secret agenda, which is, which is not a secret, which is that people think court is all is bad, when in fact, acutely, court is all does wonderful things provided the right time of day, late shifted. Court is all bad, too much or too frequent. Court is all bad, but court is all you need IT. It's so essential. And I think most people just hear cord is all and it's been associated with all things bad and maybe can help shift that there.

Yeah, i'm very happy and is an creole gist this is my whilst where I live um cortisol is a good news, bad news deal like so many things. Short term gain for long term paye k, so when you are in what we call elo stasis that is perturbation of homeostatic, there is a stress and acute stress. Cortisol is one of the things that helps you manage that bodily and mental stress.

So an english test, a car accident running away from the lion. You, the famous, pick me running away from the line. All of those require cortisol in order to manage and mitigate that stress.

The upcoming twenty twenty four election.

that's chronic stress.

I is not .

a cute stress. That's the worst the'd .

be the only mention politics and .

we don't have to go there, but we're all chronically stressed and we can talk about why that is and what's going on. And i'm actually very interested in that. And a colleague of mine in paris and I have built a computational model of olympic system, which focuses on the stress center of the brain, the amygdala, to understand how chronic stress is different from acute stress and how that chronic stress ultimately leads to meta lic and mental health disaster. Very interested .

in learning more about that before we touch on that. You've work a lot with kids. People age as you put IT zero to nineteen. I don't know about the the exact numbers, but when I was growing up, there were some kids in school that were overweight, but I was the occasional kid. Right now IT seems depending on where when draws the threshold for overweight IT seems that there are a lot of kids that are overweight.

Um how about twenty five percent obese and forty percent over way?

So so obviously a serious problem, serious now and going forward. What about adults in the U. S. I remembers seeing at a meeting a map of obesity in the U S.

Um over time and IT very quickly filled in from very few people were obese to very many. Colorado was this was this like like big king of of of fit people. But now it's no longer bullshit too. Oh, okay.

cool. I'll tell you why there are four things that can increase medical. Al ua biogenesis can tell .

me altitude is cold yeah that's .

why color out that's obe altitude. That's why color that's obese and um um with the other two I but and those were the reason IT had nothing to do with being more fit. IT had to do with cold and altitude.

Example switzerland, compared to germany, they got the same crappy food. But switzerland has half the obesity the germany does. I love switzerland's higher.

I love the food when I go to munich, I love the shoes and sour crowds.

And they got that switzerland .

to o so that great food.

switzerland obese. Now the same way colorado s less obese is because of the altitude .

you mentioned called many listeners. This podcast are at least interested in. Some um also practice deliberate cold exposure, cold showers called plunges, mainly for the um I think the best data are the increase in catalog means up and after nor an f doping that are long lasting.

People feel a big state ship. They feel Better. One looks at the effects on metabolism. They're pretty slight. They are they are slide. However, studies like that, to me, always seem a short sited in the sense that if there is a longer ark of effect on the minkus a that's affecting other things in terms of how.

Are processed or how calories are feeding into metal control function, or this function there, I can see how that might shift the shift the scale, so to speak. I mean, cold as IT is an amazingly powerful stimulus. And I think of light, cold food movement is kind like a core four ways in which you can shift physiology easily.

All of these things are imminently manipulable and for almost zero dollars, kay, but you have to know what you're doing. And right now, we've been actually kept from that knowledge. And you know, if you're addicted, it's really hard to undedicated yourself.

So that brings us back to this thing about food industry conspiracies, government conspiracies and the rest. Boy, this is gonna an interesting um section, but what do we do like? So if you and I go up to capital hill, which i've done yeah what you've done in and maybe i'll join you someday.

And you know your U C S F from downstate rear clinic on a scientist in in a public health advocate podcast and we explained to people he listen like there's the food is laced with a drug. It's it's not even really food. It's right. It's it's an aggregate of food and non food parts that make you think it's food.

It's not like people hey, your kids are you know they're swimming a swimming looks like water but it's actually part poison and and it's harming them is giving them know if you say those kinds of things I mean congresswomen and women are they're like reasonable smart people, right? I mean aren't going to do something about IT. no.

So where's the conflicts that that the food industry has um the government by the short hairs that's exactly right and they have them by the short hairs. Where I mean is that are they lining their pockets? I mean where where where is the leverage actually exerted?

So they are lining their pockets. That number one, that is absolutely true. We have the data to support that bench. Lincoln, who was the senator from arkansas, who is the chairman of the nutrition committee, you have to see her campaign contributions every time shows up for real elections.

So it's all about getting reelected or it's about them like having like a third home .

in the hampton. I think it's the third home and hampton and more than anything.

So it's really as bad as some of the documentaries without if without question.

And we have the data. There is a um an organization that I absolutely want to call out because they are in the most egregious or a political organza on the face of the earth. They're called the american legislate of exchange council alec or alc and they write bills.

They are a bill mill k and they are four. Whoever gives the money and who gives the money? Big farmer, big agra, big oil and a big food. And you so you're including big farmer, your physician.

you written scripts before. You written pressure ript for patients before. Isn't that former that provides the drugs that allows your patients to feel Better?

Well, the question is, do they do they feel Better? This is a big question, let's you want to go, right? But you're .

writing the script. I mean, I mean, i'm just trying i'm not trying to try to chAllenge you, but I see so so you don't um there have to be instances where someone style efficient .

and you give them and though if you've got a disease and a medicine will replace what's missing? sure. okay.

So for deficiency diseases, which is an another chance logic, that's what I do absolutely. And I did that you know with no compunction of uh, impropriety whatsoever. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Let's talk about what we're really talking about. Let's start with status statenland lower earlier, okay? The status reduce heart disease yes or no.

You know, I seem to be within today on all the quiz is and it's kind of becoming fun for me at this level. I'm going na go with no but but I will say, you know my friend and I think is the expert physicians well, you know Peter tea oh you know has talked about some of the positive attributes of status in certain cases for certain .

cases certain cases. That's exactly right and I completely agree. And by the way, Peters a friend, and you know, we someday will know, you know, go out drinking together.

Well, I won't drink. How can we share a state?

Share absolute? You got IT.

You guys don't. I don't know .

if he drink a little, but if you're listening.

he drinks a little .

but I me .

yeah I don't do the desert or the alcohol more but but i'm and it's not so I can live to be a hundred and twenty so I can wake up the next morning and keep up with you again.

It's like I get the so for primary prevention, that is your O D S high, you need to stand. That's primary prevention. You haven't declare yourself. You haven't had an event for primary prevention. The mean increase in lifespan for being on a stand is four days, four days, four days, four days that that.

uh, and the risk for .

diabetes is twenty percent increase. What about any improvement .

in inequality of life done for .

primary prevention? Now for secondary prevention, for secondary another, we've already declared yourself, you already have a problem for secondary prevention. That's where status shine. So there's a value to them. I'm not arguing that.

And if you have familiar hiper callista emea, which is one in five hundred kk, not only you need to a stand, but you need to look that diet and a priest. okay? So there is definitely a value to status, but not for primary prevention.

But that's what every, what every doctor you're doing oh, you're L D. L. It's over eighty.

You know, you need to start. And that's ridiculous. That is absolutely a joke.

And the data show that in fact, in fact, my colleague, a sema hota in the U. K, participated in an analysis where they took the entire U. K.

pulag. And they took out everybody under age sixty five. So are looking at people sixty five to ninety.

And IT turned out that the L D, L level correlated with longevity. The hire, the L D L, the longer they lived when you took out all the people who had problems. So L D L is not really the problem and the reasons, because there are two ideals.

There's one called large boy ant. There's one called small dense. Turns out dietary fat raises your large boyton. Your large boyd is irrelevant. IT is cardiovascular ally neutral, but that's the one the status effects, the small dense, that's the atherton ic particle. When your small dense l deal is high, that means you are not clearing trouble lery peripherally because that's what small dense show you that that's what happens to struggles, right? Is they become small, dense.

Can I take a guess and say that the best way to reduce small dances to reduce insurance.

yes, by reducing sugar, because that triggers ery is made in the liver. It's all and that's the only fact that the liver knows how to make. And so a reglan de is your liver output of carbon hydrate. That's how you have to look at triggers, right? So trigger right turns out to be much more important as a cardiovascular factor than L D.

L. Ever was. So does the does big former and big food do they know all of this? Yes, I know .

they know because they've told me so. And but they have status s .

to sell and foods in the the nova class four. 嗯。

they know this too.

So you are an optimist or you know what what's you gonna take to really move the needle? And me to describe the four barriers um we're trying to add to the knowledge component. Now you know what's the going take? Is he going to take, you know, having a president in an office or congress, people in office that really understand and care about .

this stuff yeah I mean.

to really revamp the whole system.

So right now, the system is completely and early broken, completely in hardly broken. And there's a reason why it's completely in heart broken because the street .

likes IT that way. Well, it's profitable for them.

Obviously, there are fifty one different federal agencies that manage our food, fifty one and none of them know what the other ones doing and the food industry likes at that way.

So communication across these fifty one organizations would help .

well if we had a centralized food zar, or food, you know, if we split the food of the F D A, because, you know, it's like it's not the F D A. Is the D A, or the F D A is not the foot drug administration. The federal drug administration spend a lot of time on drugs, spend almost no time on food.

Well, let's think about where there is been success. So I can recall when people smoke on planes. I actually recall going to gym in europe. And there was an extra molded into the squat rack. Yet that was telling you, I don't see people smoking cigarettes around stanford d hospital anymore, but I remember when they initially said that people couldn't smoke anywhere except in with this one little designated area.

And that's typically what you see now is and my understanding of the anti smoking campaign, at least for kids, for people eighteen and Younger, was that telling people who was bad for their health didn't work as showing them longs that were decrepit didn't work, not what work was showing them commercials of cackling hand rising um White guys who were talking about how much money they were making off of these uh, naive kids who are buying cigarettes, other tobacco products. So IT became a the the effective campaign to end smoking. And Young people was to hi jack, their inherent rebelliousness of youth and then they're like, no and looking to the man to them, like give, you know that, as my friend calls, IT like the the two finger's business card.

Like no. And so that worked. That worked, is making a come back. Vapor is a separate episode. We will get into that. But because nickey is still addictive, you don't see a lot of people smoke and cigarette. So IT worked like something that you would never imagine could ever work.

worked well. So yes, no, I mean, that's part of IT. I'm not going to tell you that it's not IT is part of IT.

Um and we actually have an example of how that could be applied to another uh uh tox exceptions sugar. We had berkely versus big sota. You know that's how berkely ended up with its so attacks that dates back to two thousand and fifty city berkeley.

We just celebrated the five year anniversary of the berkeley t attacks and we've been able to actually look gestational diabetes way down. Obesity down slightly not a lot but a little bit. Um cara vascular disease down the installer and Chris medicine U C S F. And you see berkeley just presented its inferences go general just um three weeks ago.

So a certain tax like the cigarette tacks like this makes so expensive exactly. So you tell me that I can of coke that I buy on static avenue in berkeley costs more than a canoe ke that I buy in on university avenue in palethorpe.

IT does okay by a time. And that was .

sufficient enough to to create this kind of change. Well.

yes, is money hurts. Cause money hurts exactly. So angry.

There have been four count m four cultural texts, onic shifts in amErica in the last thirty years. And they're all undeniable. Here they are. Number one, bicycle helmets .

and seatbelts. No.

everybody uses us. Two, smoking in public places. Nobody does that. Three, drink. Try IT. Hopefully if you were.

people are doing that. Four.

condoms and bathrooms. Condoms in bathrooms.

in bathrooms.

in public bathrooms.

Yeah, you see those more .

available OK 这样 right？ Thirty years ago, if a legislature stood up in a statehouse and proposed legislation for any one of those four, and I don't care for in a state house or h congress in parliament during the doom or anywhere else in the world. That one laughed right at the town.

Nani state liberty interest. Get out of my kitchen. Get out of my bathroom.

Get out of my car. Yeah, today are all facts. life. Nobody is belly aching about any of those.

The point is we were able to solve those four public health tobacco. How did we do IT? How did we solve those?

For no one could imagine that we would ever solve smoking, right? But we did sort of, and we brought consumption down by half. Kay, that's pretty good when you think about for addict of how many fewer .

people are dying of lung cancer. Notice in the it's .

like .

eighty percent wow has also .

been improvements in treatment. But yeah but it's amazing because tobacco has gone down. So the question is how did that happen? The answer is very so.

And why did you take thirty years to do IT? We taught the children. The children grew up and they voted, and they sales are dead.

That's how you make a cultural tectonic shift. So we now have this real food movement. We have people who are arguing against alter process food.

We have kids who are demanding different in their schools. And by the way, what is the biggest fast food franchise in the united states? I'm going to get this wrong.

so try me again. I don't know. I've never tried IT, but I ve had of is a chick fully?

No mcDonald .

don't know .

IT is this nation's public schools you can add up mcDonald, subway, burger king, hey and uh Wendy and every other uh fans food franchise jacking the box. Every fans would franchise in the entire country and would only be half our nation's .

public how? So could you imagine a world where there were no class three or class four nova foods allowed in in public schools?

And we're doing IT. So I am the chief science officer of a nonprofit and put this in the show notes called eat real, eat real art org. And we have a new business model for public schools.

So in one thousand hundred and seventy one, the department of education issued an administrative ordinance called resolution to forty two. And they did this purely on monetary ation reason. This was under nick on.

And what this resolution to forty two said was that all school cafeteria, all the country had to make book. They had to basically cover their costs. They couldn't be lost leaders for the school. They had to fend for themselves.

Well, this sent every food service director in country scoring for, you know how we're onna do this because I got all these, you know, you lunched ladies, you know, which, you know, personnel and then food preparation equipment and and and costs, you know that, you know, mounting, how are going to break even him? They couldn't do IT in walks in a market and h cisco and uh guangzhou co ald ds and they say, hey, we'll do IT for you. Will will provide every kid in amErica with a nutritious meal every single day.

Hot lunch. Well, they didn't say hot, okay, they just had lunch. K nutritious. They said nutritious and and I put that neat quotes too, because IT wasn't nutritious. And here's the added benefit. You can take your food preparation facilities and your footprint in the school and you can turn that into classrooms because you're onna need them. And that was the goal because as soon as you've moved the food preparation facilities out of the school, you are now hostage to the food industry .

for the rest of your life. And I could also see how that allows room for them to use these friends foods that have very long shelf life. Exactly right? Because you want to make sure that know if you only sold you two thirds of the launches that were prepared that on next tuesday, after the weekend, you could still give them food.

That isn't movie exactly right? And I will tell you so that's how IT happened and you can actually trace I Q scores and reading and math scores in this country, down from nineteen seventy one to today.

When I went to the school, I was allowed to get, I call that hot lunch. Because I was usually hot, I was allowed to get the school lunch one day a week, day a other days. I had to bring my lunch.

That one day was pretty special, like you felt like you were getting a treat, was usually like a corn dog or a hamburger. The hamburger was pretty poultry, but a hamburger yet to go looking for the paddy portion, and the bread was sweeten. And so IT was different, right? But I don't remember nearly as much abuse. I wanted to high school in the early nineties. So you're saying that now if I went to a high school, that would be a lot more sodas and donuts .

and pip, they claim of action, congress said, pizzas, a vegetable, amy club or sharp made pizza of vegetable. Maybe they need their eyes because the biggest frozen pizza, uh, uh, uh, producer is in minnesota.

I mean, how much is vegetable? I was a stretch, but at least IT made sense on the nova system of going from tomato all the way to to, to catch up.

to catch up. Since high for test corn surprises the primary ingredient in catch up, indeed. So the point is that our kids are suffering under the weight, the burden of this chronic disaster of ultra cess food which is not food and no wonder they are all obese and uh um uh sick and um uh you know doing so poorly in school and by the way, also depressed ulto progress food has now been shown in three separate studies to coral ate with depression .

in teenagers so what is the relationship between processed food or maybe we call IT nova system level three four foods and depression and other psychiatric chAllenges and if you could you separate out metals lic syndrome from obesity um in answering that like is there's something inherently depressing about Carrying access add post tissue setting aside any kind of esthetic stuff know what how people want to look or perceived you know just is there anything bad about hearing lot of about body fat independent of the meta lic and for moon and overall sense of well being?

Not really glad you asked that and me, we should have actually covered this earlier. Um everyone thinks fattish fat. As we've learned, fat is not fat and a fat is not a fat, but body fat is not body fat.

There are three fat depots, and they are metabolically different. The first is the, does this baths soup make me look fat? Fat, by the way, never answer that question. That's called subcutaneous ous fat or a big but fat, if you will. So here's a question, how many pounds or kilos of subcutaneous fat do you have to gain before you become metaverse ally IT?

I'm no idea.

About ten kilos, about twenty two pounds. why? The reason is because that subway etane ous fat drains into the system circulation. So you have to have a lot of side of kinds coming from those subcutaneous arap sites to raise the blood level upside kinds to the point where IT starts doing damage at the level of the litter.

So facts are releasing sidekicks, which are prin flaming exactly, and they're doing that at rest.

Any fat cell, any fat cell, okay, any fat cell. But if it's going to the semitic circulation, you have a volume, the distribution of six leaders. So you have to lose, you know, have to have all other side, the kinds to get the concentration up.

Now just add of fairness to the fat. How many side of kinds is a muscle cell release? I mean, are we unfairly picking on ata post tissue? Because why would add a post issue be prin flammable?

I mean, a single fat cell, but i've got a facile sitting, you know, my shoulder, some place, right? I mean, i'm not zero fat at my shoulder. Why would IT be print .

flaming so in fact, the fat self self is not. Here's what happens that sell has a fat vacuum IT has a storage place for the slipped drop let you stuff IT you stuff IT stuff IT the fact that you all gets bigger, bigger, bigger, the party life and border that encompasses that fat vacation that borders the the space ultimately can't get any bigger and IT starts breaking down when that happens, IT spills the greece into the fat sell.

The fat cell dies, becomes neckar ic that calls macrophages in to clean up the greece and it's the macrophages that released the side of kinds. So in fact the fat cell er is not the problem. It's the breakdown of the greece that the leads to the macrophage activation that's the problem.

But when you do IT in subcutaneous fat, it's going into this six leader tank. And so the concentration doesn't go very much. So ten key los, before you start seeing some effect.

Fat, the bone. Number two, visual, were big belly fat. Now, how many pounds or kilos of big belly fat they have to gain before you get about clear?

I don't know, but i'm guessing it's less than twenty two thousand. Its way less for once. I got to answer right today. That's right.

About five, about five pounds. Now question why? Number one, the visual fat does not drain into the into the systemic circulation drains into the portal vein, which goes straight to deliver. So you're getting a bigger load going straight to deliver outside the kind.

not to the kidney. The good thing about getting an answer wrong, folks, is that you never forget the correct answer, as though I always tell my students, right. So i'll never .

forget that indeed got IT. And the question is, what made the visceral fat in the first place was IT calories? No, it's cortisol. It's stress. It's the combination of the sympathetic nervous system and cortisol. The reason we know this is because you can take patients with major depressive disorder, with indulgent ous depression, who are suicide, who have to be admitted hospital to keep themselves from killing themselves, stick them in a scanner and they are losing subcutaneous fat like crazy because they're not eating, but they're gaining visceral fat because of the high quarter sol on the stress.

So there's something about the adrenal code code receptors in that area that just preferentially deposit there .

when and also high indeed because that's the metabolite active for right, and five pounds will do IT. And then finally, the third fat to deliver. Now, how many pounds of fat can the every store before you become metabolite .

ill gotta be even less because the liver is not nearly as large. The a domino region.

half open.

quarter of kill. How much is a healthy liver? way?

Healthy liver with fifteen hundred grams, kay, so no, it's not very transat late.

quickly. pounds. So we're going match. We're going a standard.

Fifty hundred grams will be three pounds, so basically half a pound. K, so not very much because that's where the action is. And so when you have fat in your liver, IT causes this medical disfunction right away.

And the questions, where did that fat come from? That came from alcohol server. So alcohol and sugar, most metabolite agrees because IT affects deliver directly stress.

Second most because IT affects the this role fat. And subchief ane's fat the least important in terms of meta table arrangement. So yes, IT may not work good in the bathing suit, but from a meta extend point, IT is actually the least important.

So the question then becomes, all right, what are you trying to fix if you're trying to fix liver fat? It's really easy. Get way of the alcohol on the Sherry, except of course they're both addictive.

Will that also liberate any fat that's already in the liver? absolutely.

And that's one of the reasons why inter mate fasting works is because IT gives your liver chance to basically offload what it's already stored. That's one of the things that internal fasting will buy you is a little at less liver fat. So that's a good thing right now.

stress. On the other hand, as you know, as we've talked about you, you've had a doctor, this apple on your uh podcast before, you know stress is tough, you know, trying to mitigate stress, especially in today's environment. And I hope you'll invite me back some time to talk about the the role of stress on the gala gladly.

And then finally, you know the subcutaneous fat. So when people go on diet sweeteners, what are they doing? Are they really reducing the fat? And the answer is no. When you try about artificial sweeteners, artificial diet, sweet tenners of any sort, you can pick your artificial sweeter. So a spar time or you know Steve among fruit, the new ones yeah the one that .

people are more exact about nowaday all it's expensive IT tends to have less of an artificial sweet near taste that people can detect right? Um so you're saying that regardless of oh and we should remembering from the comments section I do read them artificial sweeteners and non chloric sweeteners yes because in when the moment say artificial people say what about stevia, what about all of those so so let's just say non Clark sweers can wrap our arms around all that entire category unless we need to distinguish among the different participants in that category.

So you're saying that even though people can um lower their total clerk take pretty effectively, i've seen the studies that show dies who consume um water only as there you know main liquid versus diet sodas with expert typically or stevia. The diet soda drinker is actually lose more weight. We know that. But you're saying there may be deposition of fat in the liver in those individuals specifically because of the artifical sweetener.

because of the insulin. Turns out they're still in insulin response. So very famous study done in copenhagen, one hundred Normal individuals, twenty five in four different groups. One group, a one, one leader of sugar soa. Per day for .

six months.

One group, one leader of diaspora per day for six months.

A pride did that in graduate school.

One group, one leader of milk per day for six months applied .

to that when I was an infant.

And finally, one final group, one leader of a water per day for six months. I do that now.

I do more than that.

But yeah, the one leader of soda per day in six months gained ten kilos.

The sugary soa, suger, soa, ten kilos.

Oculus, no surprise. The one leader of water per day lost two kilos. Also, no surprise.

Those were the easy ones. Now let's do the ones in the middle. One leader of milk per day, no change.

Personally, there was four fat milk.

which year four fat?

yeah. They like the four fat milk.

No change. Why is that? They're taking on an enormous increase in total chLorinated.

I'm guessing that there is a blunted in ciller response due to the .

fat in the milk and also because like tos is not a very A A big driver of insulin response and because there's A A tired effect and eat less food like food. And finally, the key, the kicker to the whole thing, diesel, the one leader, dies. So what would you predict their weight would do more weight .

loss than in the water group. Based on my understanding of the literature.

that gained two .

kills wild, because they more.

Well, you tell me, why did they gain two kilos if they were consuming a leader of diasaster a, which are zero calories? The answer, because they still generated lines in response .

and that insulin response generated more hunger.

more more weight and more hunger exactly. And that's the key. So they didn't gain the ten kilos s they gain two kilos. So IT looks Better compared to the sugar um um version but IT looks like you know a problem compared to the water version or even the mild version.

So unless you boot strap calories and hold that constant, you're going to see a way game due to artificial sweater's.

Exactly right and has been shown fifty ways from sunday at a whole bunch of different studies. So compared to sugar, yeah it's Better. But compared to water, its way works.

And the reason is the insulin response. You put something sweet on the tongue. Message goes tongue to brain sugars coming.

Message goes brain to panic. Is through the biggest nerve sugars coming, release the insulin. And so tung doesn't know if it's sugar or not. IT releases the in the pankau releases the inside in which drives energy into fat, whether IT was you know from the uh die sweet or not.

I I saw some really interesting data from dana smalls group at yo, yep, showing that when people ever diet soda with food, so IT is like the diet coke with the sand water, with the burger, maybe with the posta. The insulin response from the food and the insulin response from the diet soto are compounded. But there's a classical conditioning effect, pavlova, an effect such that then later, if they just drink the diet soda, they get an even bigger incident response just to the diet sort than they would have originally if they only had the diet soda separate from food. So in other words, the insuing the food induced insuing response is conditioning a greater insulin response from the diet soda.

And we actually have another study that to demonstrates the same thing of singapore um take at all uh in american general clinical nutrition two thousand eighteen I believe that looked at uh uh a similar paradigm. Here's what they did.

They took a bunch of people and they admitted them to their clinical research center four times a week apart and they did have in random order and each time they uh started the morning that fasting and they did either a sucrose tolerance test or an a Spark m tolerance test or a super us tolerance test or among fruit tolerance test. So two hours, you know, ingesting one of the three, one of the four, and measuring glucose and insulin over the course of the next two hours, faster, faster. Okay, kay, then he was time for lunch, and they let them have whatever lunch they want.

IT was a meta lic buffet. They could eat whatever they wanted off the buffet, except that they were being clocked and the same for dinner, they were being clock. But they could eat whatever they want in a given period of time in the twenty four hours. Okay, I know you from seven am to seven pm, whenever they went home, OK turned out the cross tolerance test generated in slow response as you'd expect the month te the stevia um uh super lose and the park team did not. But then when they eat lunch, they if they'd had one of the three diet sweeteners in the morning, they ate more at lunch and more at dinner and generated an increased insulin response both at lunch and dinner so that the area under the curve for the whole day was exactly the same.

So they eat a significantly more.

yeah, yeah. Because they had the diet soda in the morning.

wild. Well, I drink drinks that contains stevia, and I don't worry about IT too much. But what you're saying is, even if I would strap my calories, there's a possibility that the insulin response could have direct effects on the liver. Exactly right. And not for the Better .

and not for the Better. Now having said that, um we have undertaken an interesting project, which I don't know if you know about in two thousand twenty during the pandemic, I was approached buy a food company in the middle st called quote, danish dairy company kd deep, the necessity of the midst east. Now they make all sorts of junk, frozen yoga, flavoured milk, ice cream, confectionary, biscuits, tomato sauce, kay.

Code has an eighteen percent diabetes rate and an eighty percent obesity rate, eight zero, eight zero. wow. In the adults right now, the company recognized that they wanted to be a metabolite healthy company, and they knew they weren't the contact.

Main said, would you put together scientific advisory? Am, to advise us what we need to do to change the food in order to be a metabolite healthy company? And we want to lead.

And I said, we be, I be happy to do that with one provider. We get to publish what we did so that I can service a road map for the rest of the food industry. They said, fine.

And so I convened a scientific advisory team with my colleague, all from older son, who started the very first farmers market in los Angeles and is now actually the director of sustainability nutrition for K D D. Um uh tim harland, who is the head of killer medicine and George washington university. Rachel gal, who is a fatty acid expert who ran the or make a three for A D D trial at the nh and under a corn's.

Dt, who is actually a computer scientist from stanford. And we basically strip down every single thing that K, D, D. Did in terms of procurement, in terms of ingredients, in terms of packaging.

We submitted every single ingredients to biochemical analysis because you couldn't trust what the vendors were basically telling K D, D. Was in the food. We had had to actually know what was in the food.

That was a half million dollars all by itself. I mean, this was not a cheap little know so gern into the woods. This was a big deal. We basically reengineered their entire one hundred eighty item portfolio, and they have now turned over ten percent of their products to be metabolite healthy.

And the precepts that we set in this paper, which is in frontiers in nutrition in march of this year, two thousand and twenty three, three things, three principles. If you would hear to these three principles, you can turn any food healthy, including ultra cess food. Number one, protect, deliver.

Number two, feed the gut. Number three, support the brain. If you have a food that does, all three of those IT is healthy. If you have a food that does none of those three, then it's poison .

because food doesn't like, is the right the right describe in that .

case exactly. And if that does one or two, but not all three, things going to be somewhere in between. So the goal was to take all of K, D, D.

Products and move them from, you know, the lowest tier up to the highest tier by adhering to these three principles. And we came up with some very simple things. Number one, gotta get rid of sugar.

Number two, got an ad fiber. Number three, got atomic trees. Number four, GTA do something about the emulsion fires because the multiple res are causing the good inflation tion.

Because after all, music res of surgeons, they hold fat and water together. They burn a hole in the mission layer. So they're actually contributing to that gun inflation tion on a mosquito. Are you strewn throughout ultra process food?

Dom, we've heard about hidden sugars a lot during today's episode and elsewhere, but based on everything you told us about artificial, excuse me, low calorie sweet IT makes more sense to be now White foods that are not touted as diet foods would be laced with things like super lose, because IT should drive the craving for that food through increases in instant and craving of other foods later that day and later that evening. Is that why non color swetnam are added to all sorts of now that because typically one thinks non color winners probably only added to diet foods to low calorie foods. But that's not .

that there you're right. That's not the case. And they are adding that diet sweden to foods that you didn't know head died sweeter in him.

That's right. Um there are two reasons that this happens. One is insulin. Because insulin blocks lept in signal at the level of the hypothalamus and the nucleus a cumbers.

So with a blocks lapp in is the hormones that your fessel make that tells your brain you've had enough. So if instant blocks slept them, IT makes you hungry, and IT also extinguishes IT. IT stops the extinguish of reward by that food so that you want more of IT. So IT does both because left, and Normally suppresses food intake and reduces craving.

The analogy that comes to mind is a slot machine that encourages you to feed more money and hit go to clever but that also blinds you to the outcome so even if you win, you don't even know that you have wins. It's also blinding you your losses. You're effectively becoming a moon of just eating without any um conscious understanding .

of what you .

you're bring in or tasting the food any longer. Exactly right. It's not this like in ona empire when he came on the other you know these these are consumptive behaviors where people are scrolling social media, consuming porn or consuming drugs or alcohol in a way that like they're not in touch with the pleasure of of the substance or behavior anymore.

They become a but but if they don't do IT, they feel lousy. So the pleasure is gone. The pain is definitely .

awaiting tolerance independence. That's the definition of addiction. So doping is an excited tory neurotransmitter or IT excites the next neuron always.

There is no such thing as doping inhibiting a personette neuron. Dopamine stimulates the next neon and IT doesn't matter which dopamine receptor IT is one through five. It's always excited to me.

Now there is like to be excited. That's why they have receptors, but learns, like to be tickled, not budging, chronic overstimulation of any neuron. And you know, this leads to neuronal cell death.

And the reason is because the neuron needs energy. The neuron is the most energy dependent tissue in the body. IT needs those might a country to be pumping out atp like crazy to engage in neuro transmission.

Well, when you're firing non stop, you risk sell death. So the excited tory neuron that the personates neuron has a plan b IT doone regulates the recept IT down regulates the doctor cept. So there's less chance that any straight dopy molecule will find the reception to bind to.

And this is its plan, be in order to try to mitigate the risk of dying. Well, what does that mean in human terms? IT means you get a hit, you get a rush.

Recept t just go down next time. You need a bigger hit to get the same rush. And recept just go down and need a bigger hit and a bigger hit and a bigger hit.

And until finally, you need a huge IT to get nothing. That's called tolerance. And then when the neurons do start to die, that's called addiction.

That's what we've got. And that's what's happened in terms of food addiction. So the question is, what's addictive is fat addictive? no. Because if that was addictive than all the people on the atkins diet or on the k generic diet would be gaining weight.

not losing IT. And i'd be craving, revise all day. I like a revive pretty often. And actually I know, I know people say no, but I look, my lip is are in line, and I I don't need many starches and I certainly avoid sugar. Although now i'm thinking I might want to really reduce my locale a sweeter intake. I don't see myself reducing my stevia index to zero because it's in some things I really like Andrew.

I enough the food police, I always .

say that i'm not a cop, but but data, data and health data say .

that's not helping you and that's what the data say. Point is that the fat is not the problem. The salt is not the problem. The caffeine, the problem. Cafes, classic addictive .

substance at every level. Yeah, but problem. But if one can cut out caffeine by the early afternoon or even sooner in the day and it's not consumed to access and it's in the former coffee, but motive, some other form the healthy, you know, is that really that much of a problem? I love coffee like with a capital l underline bold face.

I, I, I, I feel your pain. And the answer is, no one has shown that coffee is toxic. IT is addictive, but it's not toxic.

Now if you mix the coffee with alcohol now, you got for a logo. Now it's toxic, but inner of itself. Caffeine is not um toxic and that's why there's a starbucks s on every street corner.

But this is highly reinforcing. I didn't episode on caffeine work, covered some data that was publishing the journal science, one of the three APEC journals. And if you put caffeine, unbeknownst to the consumer, into plain yogurt, people will create plain yogurt and did much more. I mean, people like the feeling of being cathie, as long as not creating anxiety levels of energy. I'm on a stick with that.

Yeah and so we've .

been talking a little bit about the hypotheses as well as some peripheral gut based mechanisms for hunger. And this is a great opportunity to talk about some of the G L P won aggers that are now um widely used. So think IT typically call those epic.

But G L P one google on like pepi one right um originally discovered in the hilo monster which eats very seldom. And some really smart biologist I love biology like this said, how come they don't have to eat very much? Well they their blood is loaded with G L P one, right.

And so they only have to one, whatever hilo monsters delighting per year, or something outrageous like that, humans may G L P. one. Well, my understanding is that glp one that that not that injected, but that one makes naturally, is acting on both the brain and the gut to increase the tide.

So IT is acting on the no argument, but the primary action is on the gut. Jpy one decreases the rate of gastro empty. That is its primary driver. Yes, IT does affect the brain. I'm not arguing that IT does, but the primary effect is to reduce the rate of gesture camping so you stay fuller longer because the food doesn't move through the stomach. And the interesting.

interesting in south america, in regular argentina, IT was long thought that year. Robotic consumption, which we know very modestly, increases G, L, P. one. And by the way, a lot of other things do to um that people were taking IT for its after meals for its lacy of effect partially .

but that's not pleasant .

and fairly effect to space their meals without snacking that you're you know and maybe it's the G L P. one. Maybe it's something else, but people are injected them selves with G L, P one analogs. Now dollars and IT seems to be pretty effective inducing weight law, although a significant round that wait law seems to be from a skeletal muscle tissue.

And we need to talk about so.

So what are your thoughts on the epic as as a mary? Really, you talk about primary and secondary control. Are you refer to IT a little bit differently in the context of status, right?

So a kid comes in his zobeir are slightly overweight. It's like I want to do on try Better exercise. A person comes, says, hey, i've had a really hard time getting that last twenty nine pounds off for so many years. Will you prescribed me exempt?

So the short the answer is, number one, i'm retired and not to prescribe and anything. But let's let, let's go there. The data show that G L P one analogues like sam glue tide and now terza petite which is lillies version a maja was the diabetes version. Zp bound is the obesity version, in the same way that oh empty is the diabetes version for um no vora and the gov is the obesity version. So there are .

G L P one .

synthesizing lab .

IT looks like G L P one, smells like G L P one x.

like G L P one one injected epeat. The only one actually has a dual functioned binds to the gip receptor. So I might have double duty.

And the data show that it's actually even slightly more effective at weight loss than the noviny diversion. So we'll be seeing a shift in terms of consumer preference soon, no doubt. But here's the thing.

You look at the data, one year a of treatment, sixteen percent weight loss. Now that sounds great. And another saying is bad and .

people are not craving food all the time. Is that because people are feeling full longer, right? They're eating less.

They're eating less. This is the .

calorie and calorie out model.

They're eating less and so they are losing weight um and not arguing .

that and they might be craving alcohol .

less according to some recent yeah we can go there for a minute too in a second. Here's a problem. When you look at that sixteen percent weight loss, as you just said, when you put people in a desi scanner, they have lost equal amounts of fat and muscle.

Now is good to lose muscle. No, IT is not good. Ask any little little lady who breaks her hip if SHE wish, if he had a little bit more muscle, or somebody who died.

lost a lot of muscle because they weren't offsetting the weight loss with resistance training or some other form of exercise and the amount of food that they can eat in order to maintain that way to put IT in scientific terms.

Socks and um you know we mentioned Peter a tea earlier. Okay, in olive he's made a very clear that sark opining lack of the mass is one of the drivers of mortality. So losing muscle is not uh uh A A A good idea, but you lose equal amounts of fact muscle.

What else causes loss of equal amounts of fat, muscle starvation? In fact, the reason that all these G L P. One analogues work is because you stop eating. start. Yeah, just like .

the pretty bi to me. Well.

ask another hilo monster I did.

But unfortunately, whatever answer IT provided was not .

the point is that starvation is not so good. And if you think about why it's working, it's reducing guest, the rated gastric empty, right? Well, IT turns out that that's the reason for its side effects, the reduction gesture empty.

That's why you get novia. That's why you get vomiting. That's why you get banquet, titus.

And most importantly now gastric parisis, your stomach turns to stone, and you can move any food through your in testing at all. And worse yet, when you stop the medicine, the guest to parasite doesn't get Better. This is not a good idea.

This is like the opposite of the urban mutinous effect, which has a sort of proxy of gastric etem. Maybe G L P one agonising. Gosh, okay. So it's obviously ite people who have struggled to lose weight like IT, especially if they are struggle to lose weight, was, at least in their mind the consequence of being hungry all the time .

and needing to eat more or was IT because of the reward and you they are dependence because in fact yes um um these G P one analogues reduce reward and that's one of the reasons why they they ve noticed that you know thing uh reduction and alcohol consumption uh as well. And that sounds like a good thing, except there are also numerous cases now of major depressive disorder in response to these drugs, have something .

track on or something for the treatment of addiction. Well, sometimes can be useful but now you attempting to remove the the um the amplitude of that reward signal, I mean a lot on paper that makes sense but but that does not always .

and practice IT doesn't play out. That's right. And so i'm going to refer you now to an old uh literature that um was from two thousand six there was a drug that was approved in europe called romana band K A trade name a compliant and IT was approved in uh europe for weight loss. And IT was pretty good at weight loss caused about twenty percent White loss. IT also cause severe depression and twenty one suicides.

So it's no longer available because IT was the end.

Yeah, I was pulled from the european market, never proved in the united states. And the reason this happened was because this was the anti marijuana drug. This was the anti monti's drug.

This was an indoor canabal ID antagonist. Well, when you reduce reward, you also reduce your desired live. And that's why this concern about reduction and alcohol consumption, we've already seen major depressive disorder in patients receiving olympic.

So are we going to see the same thing play out as we did for remona bent? I'm worried about IT fan. Well, fan fan didn't have was cardie was cardio cardio problems due to the ffr ming because of the certa a one b receptor agonist, right?

I'm just referred to the fact that these blockbuster drugs or obesity, they tend to follow a countour of, you know, very promising, very exciting. A lot of people losing weight. Suicides are very promising. Love people losing weight credi ACC issues, very promising losing weight. And now you're saying the stomach turns to do so.

Bible, well indeed. So that's the question. And then finally, we can really talk biblical. If everyone in amErica who qualified for oepa got IT, that would be two point one trillion to the healthcare system, which is currently at four point one trillion.

So it'll be a greater than fifty percent increase in health care costs, kay, at thirteen hundred a month. Conversely, if we just got sugar consumption down to U. S, D, A guidelines by basically, you know putting some limits on how much added sugar the food industry can put into any given product like fruit loops, we could reduce weight by twenty nine percent and save three point zero trillion dollars.

So we'd get Better weight loss and we'd save five point one trillion dollars, which makes more sense to the U. S. government.

While earlier you are loading to government, a big food, big pharma relationships. I mean, there's a huge win here for whoever is manufacturing these G L P one analogs. Um the questions who is .

paying the tab? Well we are um now the questions. Why can't the government see that in the answers? Because the governments on the doll too, because the government are through tariff s on U S.

Made foods. K grows fifty six billion dollars here. So they're a player.

They're not just a regulator. They're an actor. To play devil's .

advocate little bit less, i'm not be the last person to step in and trying defend government as as a unified body. I not qualified do that but you could see how if you looked at IT like checkers instead of chess, you'd say, okay, here's a drug that's going to allow many millions of people to reduce their overall body weight.

Overall body weight is a risk tractor for a number of things um and there will be savings on the back and as a consequence of that weight loss. So that's the checkers version, right? The chess version is how you're describing IT.

And I think that I mean.

clearly people in government are are almost some perhaps are smart enough to play chess, not checkers or at least understand IT, but there's a very little incentive for the chest model. So um what would you solve? This problem is the same thing that happened a fan fan or this roman d which is if suddenly there's a major issue with the drug, then everyone stops taking IT. And traditionally, that's how it's gone. That sounds like these G L P one animals going to make IT through the shoot though.

yeah. I mean, there is a very clear downside to these medicines on the other hand, and there is an upside. And so i'm not sad that these medicines exist. I'm for them, i'm not against them and for them for the right patient. And right now, it's not the right patient who's getting them just like the status s.

So what if somebody who's taking one of these analogues makes IT a point to do resistance training? And here, you know, you mentioned body builders early. I'm not suggested they become body builders, but we now know, and I think Peter t and others would agree, that everybody should be doing some form of muscle loss offsetting resistance exercise a great at least past now they're reaching their doll or something. know. I know there are those that say, wait, turning doesn't bloom your height anyway, just say that from his train early twenty .

on word is especially if you're on these medicines in order to maintain muscle mass.

right? So that's a different picture, right? Um people are drinking less alcohol again. I'm playing devils advocate here. So if we look at these these compounds, not in a vacuum, but okay, the person has been Carrying that extra thirty pounds, is now only Carrying a few extra pounds of at a post issue. We've lost a lot of muscle, but now they feel well enough to exercise um the depression part worries me. Yeah but anyway, i'm just i'm just trying to around the contour .

of IT what we've seen in children because that's who I took care of, was that often they needed to jump start kay, and there were different ways to get him to jump start stomach. And well, that's not jump start.

That was a way. Did I know I A friend? He was and sadly still is really big.

And he always talked about the stomach shaping, like if I could just get fifty pounds down quickly, then I could exercise. But exercise is is painful, this kind of thing. And sadly, he he's continue to maintain her creep up in a very excessive weight.

And the point is, you know that this concept of jumpstart, actually, if if you're only doing yourself, doesn't really work. And the question is, why is his way creeping up? If you had the stomach stapling, the answer is, because is a sugar tic.

Yeah, he's definitely addicted to the super big gulp soda.

If you drink your calories, IT doesn't really matter.

does IT no and and he's got such terrible surprise is and joint pain and all is that the prospect of exercising is like a you will tumbled IT to like flap is wings and go to ours.

Fotos is a driver of immune disfunction. If he got off, you can tell him from me, if he got off the sugar, his theorizes would get Better, his weight would get Better, his arthritis would get Better. And he could have been that jump start.

This is a private example to bridge to the brain component of all this, because I have long wondered, based on what I understand about neural circuitry and neuroplasticity, I know we share in this knowledge that at some point, Carrying a lot of atropos to show means that the brains who represents the body differently, and when we know there these these seattle topic maps of self, you know, but that the neural machinery in the hyper thal is sure, which is responsible for motivated states, is set up.

But but also just the entire mapping of the self changes. In other words, if one is fat long enough, that IT becomes increasingly hard to get to A A healthy weight because of the way that the neural circuitry is impacted. IT basically remains to maintain that that um fat person, honestly, even just at the level of appetite, but just in terms of what do you what do big animals do? I had to put out the way ninety pounds bulled on master.

He was very economical with his movement. He was extremely powerful. He could run at least in when he was Younger. But if he could be still, he was still, as opposed a certain smaller animals that are like parapet dic, right?

Because because he was lept in resistant. So left in, as we talked about briefly, is the hormone that tells your brain you've had enough. If you are left in sensitive, you are happy to burn. If you are elected in resistance, your brain things, you're starving. And if you brain things starving is going to affect your behavior in two ways, it's going to make you want to eat.

And also gonna you, anna conserve, because the goal is to try to increase the left and levels in order to overcome that resistance, which of course you can never do, because all you going to do is lay down more fat and make more lepton and make so much sense, because lepton comes from the atop s dish. exactly. So that left in resistance is what you have to be able to break through. You have to fix the element sensitivity.

Well, what's the driver of the lepton resistance? Insulin insulant inhibits lapsed in signaling and IT does IT at three separate places in the pump scene on the proof milan corton neuron in the hypothenuse that does IT at I S two insulter subter substrate two IT does IT IT sucks through suppressed outside a kind signal three and IT does IT at pip three fast retitle in us try fast at those three separate arms of the uh uh lepton recept are all basically put to sleep by high insulin. Insulin blocks lept in signal.

So the higher the instant goes, the more your brain thinks you're starving. And the more your brain thinks you're starving, the hungry you you get and the less you wanna move. So the glittery and slave that we've been talking about all all in our podcast is really biochemical IT is secondary to this phenomenon of instant blocking lepton signal. You gotta a fix that first, get the installed in down any way you can, and the best way, get rid of the refined carbohydrates. That's where you start .

IT makes so much sense.

IT works to, how about that?

That's always good.

IT is.

I once heard you say, I think he was in a conversation with Peter tea on his podcast. And this really stuck in my mind that when a person consumes glucose, that IT activates a number of different brain sites. You don't be neurones loving glue cose, but that went one in just four ctos. That IT preferentially activates neons in the reward pathway that that maybe seven times the the magnet de or or something like that.

glucose activates the basel ganger. Um this is work from Warner housing and uh switzerland and also artists that .

are the movement and planning and execution.

Okay, um frc tos basically stimulates the nuclear accounts, the reward center IT is just like harvin, just like cocaine, just like uh nickem IT activates the reward center. IT doesn't do anything for the basal ganglia. So IT is addictive.

Anything that stimulates the reward center in the extreme is addictive. So if chemical addictions, her cocaine, data, goal, sugar, we have behavior addictions, shopping, gambling, net gaming, social media, pornography that matter, they all stimulate dopamine in the reward center and in the extreme they are all addictive. So the question is, if you are addicted, is that personal .

responsibility? But it's A A very um it's a question I think about a lot because I know a lot of people in the addiction recovery community, both from the treatment and in the addict. yes.

And this always comes down to this question when somebody is suffering from an addiction of any kind and their resistance to getting treatment, if you look at IT them as as being sick, at least in that moment, is a sick person in the best or worst, or at least diminished position to guide their own treatment. So ference is somebody with dementia. Would you ask them, do you want to go see an neology st? You might ask them that, but are they the best person to make that decision?

This is the problem. So this is, this is where persons responsibility falls down. So persons responsible bly, as know, we talked about four criteria have to be met.

None of them are met. That's the first issue. Second one is a little bit, shall we say, cheek here. Who invented personal responsibility?

Any idea i'm deferring to get this this one wrong?

Yeah.

you're going to get this wrong. Are you ready? Yes, I don't know. The tobacco industry, the notion of personal responsibility.

They invented IT. There was no personal responsibility until tobacco in one thousand sixty two, because they were getting killed on the science and they needed to invent another reason for you to smoke. In fact, there's a paper that came out, dorfman at all, that looked at the new york times in the washington post, and they did a entire little search of the entire of um you know the all the output of those two newspapers for decades to look for the term personal responsibility. And the very first time I was ever mentioned was one hundred sixty two. And IT didn't pick up in speed until nineteen eighty six, which was the same year as sip loni v legit in the at the supreme court, which basically said that the you know that the cigarette industry was was guilty of of applying people with an addictive substance. So this is very specifically industry driven, and we have the data to prove IT amazing.

Well, I wonder.

along the .

lines of personal responsibility, given that many listeners this conversation are going to be thinking about their own food intake and food choices, that of their children and and other relatives, then we could play a little, a little little, not a game, but a little rapid ish fire. Q, I never done this before in this podcast, but I think it's particularly appropriate for a discussion like this that weeks out into so many areas.

And I absolutely will invite you back and props, along with apple, talk about some of the exciting work you guys are doing because they're so much we can cover. But people are going to wonder, in a very practical sense, whether or not they shouter should not be consuming certain things. And I know you're not the food police. I'm not the food, i'm not a cop, and I do believe people should are should be in choice about these matters.

But I also believe that because you're guest on the part cast, you're hiding, informed and and i've done clinical work and research for so many years in the area and you have such a clear stance on the role of big food and and we really, really appreciate your honesty and directness, but that you've willing to provide comment about a couple of different terms that all throw out. And if you choose to say really nothing to say about that, fine, there will be a quick pass. So um here we go and we covered a little bit this earlier but fruit in whole form. so. Has photos but has fibre, so thumbs, thumbs dev or thumbs down.

For fruit consumption, fruit is fine, fruit ice is .

not great. Thank you. White rice versus Brown rice and among the White rises the sticky rice um and the rises with added sugars which you find in in a lot of um a lot of restaurants .

Brown rice because of the fiber White rice polished you know number one, all the vitam be one gone and of course a much larger guk s excursion. That classic index thing, which I of course I hate, is it's classic c load that matters and that is a very high lymon load. So Brown rice.

so Brown rice is Better than White rice yet. Okay, in a meaningful in a meaningful way. okay.

Um really you mention tomato sauce. I love tomato sauce that's made from just tomatoes can to make. So is our most tomato sauces filled with .

sugar perfect? Our little recommendation engine looked at this question and IT turns out that only ten percent of the available tomato sauces out on the market don't have added sugar. So you have to know which ones where you can look yourself or you can look up perfect. And i'll tell you which ones you can buy.

If people chose to consume bread, which many people do, is there a way to just across the board without just baking your own or seat or looking at the ingredients less to make a Better choice is like sardo's tend up less sugar than, like, well, saro has been fermented.

so IT will have actually consumed some of the sugar. So IT would be a Better choice. But really the best choice is the highest fibre birds.

No, if you look at a White berry, IT is twenty five percent of fiber, the husk is twenty five percent of the weight of that weed berry. That means that the carbohydrate to fibre ratio of a weak berry is three to one. So a good bread should have a carbohydrate fibre tio of somewhere between three, two, one to five to one tops.

Anything above that means that they've stripped the fiber away. So that's something you could do. But the easier way is to actually look IT up on perfect.

You mention meat and meat sourcing, egg and chicken sourcing earlier and we just revisit that meat, fish and eggs thugs up some side away sums down or IT depends.

IT depends depends on where the meat came from. IT depends on whether IT was pestering ed depends on whether its organic or not. If they uh, animal was injected with antibiotics, stay away from IT because those antibiotics are in the meat, they're going to be basically sterilize your god and then the bad bacteria are gonna take over. We haven't really talked much about the microbiome today, but that's a whole podcast by itself.

We can touch on a little bit more from low sugar fermented foods, thus up the sideways mente foods.

short chain file assets or good.

What are your favourite sources of fermented food?

I like kim to.

I like him to to relax some of the live .

shower crowds. Yeah, that's also good but with the right you know the right man, um the one thing I would be uh uh careful about is yoga. Okay, so there are yogurts with live cultures and there are whole lot yogurts with dead cultures.

And if it's a yogurt with dead cultures, it's kind of irrelevant. And the chances are they've actually covered up the soul ness with sugar. So come large commercially available yogurt.

Be very, very careful. Okay, if it's you know artist yogurt you know made by you know people you know or trust, that's a very different story. You know yoga with live cultures in in fasting.

do you practice IT? And what do you think about IT?

Um I don't practice IT, but I am for IT for the right patient turns out who's the right patient, the patient with liver, that because the reason IT works, because IT gives deliver chance to basically burn off the .

fat that is stored. Zero calorie soda got IT definitely know. And I don't even have to ask about sugar y soda because that's .

that's basically just poisoning I can food combinations .

I have a feeling I know your answer is but the classic c index which we know your feelings on now um a surge that if you combine some fat with a sug like like eating ice cream, you have a more blunted in still in response then if you were the pure sugar of equivalent calories. But um what are your thoughts on food combinations as a way to blunt the insulin response?

Food combinations are great if there's some fiber associated with .

IT comes back to fiber again.

And by the way and by the way, uh I you know full disclosure. I am the chief medical officer of a fiber company. What is IT? IT is called bio uma, and IT is a proprietary fiber.

IT is A A microscope ge seven microns in diameter. So the size of a red blood cell you swallow IT IT goes your stomach IT expands seventy fold over its original size. And so to give you a feeling of fullness because it's taking up space in the stomach. But more importantly, when IT expands, the looks in the cranes in the sponge become available. And embedded in those nuts and crAnnies are a set of proprietary hydrogels cable fiber, which sequester glucose fractus suse simple starches and render them unavailable for early absorption in the datum, thus reducing the glucose response, reducing the instant response, protecting the liver and moving IT through the in teston soak of microbiome rowed up for its own purposes. Feeding the gut, we can reduce glucose subseries tion by thirty six percent, fractus suborn by thirty eight percent, success subscribe by forty percent, simple start absorb by nine percent, and increased short chain fat asi production by sixty percent without an increase in gas.

When do people take this .

with meals? Okay, so IT IT comes as a sah I um one tea spoon, sprinkle IT on your food or take IT as know in a drink, just mix IT in and slug IT down and then eat breakfast, lunch or dinner and IT will basically act like you ate real food IT will turn process food into real food. In the industry. And we have clinical trial data that demonstrates that, that is IT available.

the commercial available.

that is called munch munch. Now I hate that name.

I hate make IT up well. Get your market. Your marketing team .

works main.

great. Thank you for that sorry, munch munch marketing team but you ve got a munch munch to a new product name um but that sounds like a very interesting product. And IT actually answered my next question, which was about um fiber supplements.

Fiber is good, but there are two kinds of fiber. They're simple and they're inviable. They're not the same.

So simple is what goes into fiber. One bars you that silly am in yelland pecten like we holds jelly together. That's good and that's saying it's bad.

But you need the insider fiber, the saulus, the stringy stuff in salary, the cardboard, if you will, um together they form this jail that we talked about earlier. If you only consume the simple fiber, which is what the food industry will add to to food because the insider fibre is not miscible. If you only add the siyal fiber back, you're not getting the benefits of the entire fiber compliment.

really. You're when talking about the nova system and how most all of our food, let's say I know, is seven and ten percent. Let's ninety five percent.

Let's on the side of Better ninety five percent of our food you come from nova system class one, class two foods three or three okay staying away from those um nova class four foods. Could you give us some examples of nova class one in class two foods? Um it's just road broadly speaking.

Okay nova class one is any food without a label.

period?

If you see a label on a foot, it's a warning label .

or there's ground ground beef as a label. okay. So that's well, does that so you try about apple, but when I buy IT, IT has a label i'm asking us because people are onna wonder.

So does have a nutrition facts label? Is there nutrition facts label on .

a single room beef? I buy that that uh ground beef for a consumer ison um where if you flip over IT says how many colors, how many protest. So there's a label but but it's just be for vaison.

Okay, no, that's class one OK egg, egg class.

So and of course fruit apple's arms, okay, that doesn't matter if IT has a has a name, a name tag, as long as IT IT doesn't .

have an ingredient IT real food does not need a label. It's only if they did something to IT that IT needs a label. So you have to look at every label as a warning label.

Now the problem with the label is that only tells you what's in the food. What you really need to know is what's been done to the food because it's the ultra cess food that's the problem. They don't want to tell you that that's secret.

Okay, secret from a propriety standpoint, but also secret because if you knew what they did IT, you would not need IT. You would never buy IT and they don't want you to know. So they only tell you what's in the food.

That's not what's important. It's what's been done to the food that's important. And that's why this novel class for is so important. And that's why perfect is so important because it'll do the work for you.

Great will definitely provide links, all of these. So if you could pick one thing to recommend to people that want to improve their health.

get right. A sugar. Very clear. At the number one. At number two, go for a walk.

The exercise piece.

go for a walk .

and if you could recommend one thing that the general public can do to try and assist in this advocacy for not redefining, but actually clearly defining what is food and what isn't and making people aware um at the level of policy and change and school lunches. I mean, there were one thing. What can we do? I mean you've clearly activated minor on surrounding like that the set of problems that exist in the path to correct them. But should we be writing to our congress people? Should we be um getting angry at hospitals because they've got all these fast food machines and the cafeteria food is like illness promoting, you see.

Sf, we've got rid of sugar beverages. We have the healthy bever initiative.

So no machines.

no of machines that .

you see stanford, check that out because you know people always send me pictures of the of the coke machines in the school of medicine. I'm like, listen, I didn't put him there, but we have the model .

for the public, you know. I mean, where where was the first place that smoking was banned? Hospitals, kay, because we knew.

So if you get rid of the you know of soda, if you rid of the sugar soda at the hospital, you're telling people something. So yeah, I think that every hospital and really every public venue. In amErica needs to clear out the junk. So post photos .

of junk that are supposed to be in uh in health promoting institutions, I guess we're try to cancel jack. We're trying to cancel you. I'm party opposed to cancel culture, but here we go cancel um marvelous. It's actionable straight forward. Its low cost low time investment a zero cost um very low time investments.

Thank you for that. And look up at real because we're doing IT for your kids so you need to help support IT. Any school district in amErica can do IT so what do we do? We have a business model wear by the um food services director um either purchases or rents a the appeared factory in the center, the district repurposes IT into a food preparation facility.

They can make twenty seven to thirty thousand meals a day, kay, with a you know skeleton and crew and then they and you control what's in IT. And because you're buying in volume, IT actually reduces the cost. So it's cheaper than buying IT from cisco or arrow mark, sidecar or wherever.

And then you farm IT out there, you know, trucker bus to all the different schools. So every kid gets a hot meal from scratch each day. And we can solve this problem.

Can help to ask this one last question for people, they want to cut out sugar, which you clearly stated is the most important thing to do for one's health. How do we know how much sugar is in something? I so should people be looking at labels and just looking for how much sugar, how much carbon hydrate? Or could we even go so far as to say if IT says um high fractus corn erp then it's it's on the no fly list.

don't need you. So the the problem is that there are two hundred and sixty two names for sugar, and the food entry uses all of them. And the reason they use all of them is because they can include a different sugar as number five, number six, number seven, number eight, number nine on the list.

When you add IT up, IT becomes number one. They hide in plane site, and they do IT on purpose 那样。 Do I expect everybody to memorize all two hundred and sixty two names? No, of course not.

Can you figure this out yourself? Well, the answers know. Unless they have the line where IT says added sugars. If he says added sugars, IT is either sugar or high fractus concert, no one's adding lactose. okay?

That's not her glucose.

They're not even adding glucose because glucose isn't that sweet. Glucose is not that interesting. You don't see people going around trucking.

Caro serb, do you know that's glue? Cose, who cares? Again, might be good in the massas cookie, but that's IT.

So it's fotos. So you need to know what's been added. So if IT says added sugars, that's a good place to start. No greater than one teaspoon preserving, no greater than four grams preserving of added sugars. Anything greater than that.

leave at the store. And for those nova .

type type one, no aim for other types, one, two and three. And if you don't know whether it's novel pe one, two or three, you can use perfect. And if you don't look at that, then go look at the nutrition facts label. And anything that has more than four ingredients is novel class .

for Robert tic. Thank you so much. You've provided such an incredible education in nutritional biochemistry, the processing of fat, protein, carbohydrate, gar frick tos, in particular, the clear detriments of consuming frick tos on so many different organ systems.

I love, love, love that you separate out food science, nutrition and meta lic health or not or that's just that you know that's a gazillion dollar delineation for people to understand and to shape the understanding of all the information that's out there to and bins into these different categories. You've given a so many actionable tool um new conceptual frameworks, you given us a real tour of force today in a just is also clear language. So I want to thank you.

I learned a ton and and I know everyone else as as well. And if people have questions, they can course put them in the comments section on youtube that the best place will provide links to all the the companies in a websites that that you reference in some of your other work in. Listen, I just i'm so so grateful that you exist and that you've done the work that you have done and your passion and your advocacy for health um it's just all so clear. So thank you so much.

So I I want to thank you and the reason I want to thank you is first for you inviting me that's nice, you know that's good. But the reason is because people need to understand science. I am completely in agreement with you.

The public needs to understand science. They listen to you because you, number one, provide the science, and number two, you don't talk down to them. You treat the vesicles. And that is truly remarkable. And so I want to thank you for yourselves.

Well, you most welcome. It's a labor of love and I think is the great maxim brook that said, when teaching, assume zero knowledge and infinite intelligence and I do believe that humans are infinitely intelligent although sometimes there's a whole we mask IT um people deserve the the knowledge so thank you so much for sharing that knowledge today and let's absolutely have you back you.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with doctor Robert luc about nutrition and how sugar impacts the health of our brain and body to learn more about doctor list tics work and to find links to the many books that he's written on this and other topics, please see the shown ote captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podd cast, please subscribe our youtube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support.

In addition, police subscribed to the podcast on both spotify and apple. And on both spotify and apple, you can leave us up to a five star review if you have questions for me, your comments about the podcast or guess you'd like me to consider on the huberman and lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on youtube. I do read all the comments.

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. Not so much on today's episode, but are many previous episodes of the huberman lab podcast.

We discuss supplements. While supplements are not necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for horton support and for improving focus. To learn more about the supplements discussed on the human room in lab podcast, go to live momentous spell O U S.

So live momentous dot com slash huberman. If you're already follow me on social media, I am huberman lab on instagram, x formally called twitter, linton, facebook and threads. And at all of those places, I discussed science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content to the huberman lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the huberman lab podcast.

So again, it's huberman lab on all social media channels. If you haven't all already subscribed, our neural network newsletter. Our neural network newsletter is a zero cost newsletter that comes out every month.

IT includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of short PDF of maybe just one to three pages where I list out the specific protocols, for instance, for improving dopamine in functioning or for improving your sleep or for deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure or fitness protocols, and on and on, all of which are presented in brief fashion, very direct, just the protocols listed out, again, completely zero cost. To sign up, you simply go to huberman lab dot com, go to the menu functions, roll down the newsletter, and enter your email. And I should point out that we do not share email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with docker Robert ash. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in S.