Dr. Rhonda Patrick: Micronutrients for Health & Longevity
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Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I'm amy huberman and i'm a professor of neutral logy and optimize gy at stanford school of medicine today. My guest is doctor on a Patrick doctor. Patrick is known to some of you as a podcast and one of the premiere educators in the landscape of meta ria, metabolic stress and other aspects of brain and body health.

Her podcast found my fitness is one of the premier podcast in the world for disseminating knowledge about how the brain body work and how we can use behavioral tools, micro neutral supplements and other protocols in order to maximize our immediate and long term health. Doctor patcher did her formal training in cell biology, expLoring the links between medicine, real metabolism, pop tosa, which is naturally occurring cell death, which is a healthy form of cell death that occurs in our brain and body throughout the lifespan, and cancer biology. SHE then went on to do postdoctoral training with doctor bruises, investigating the effects of micrometers and meeting vitamins and minerals and how they affect metabolite m inflation tion DNA the image and the aging process.

SHE has published landmark reviews, articles and primary research, meaning original research articles in some of the premier journals in the world, including science, nature, cel, biology, trends in cell biology and passive. Indeed, doctor Patrick is an expert in an extraordinary broad range of topics that impact our health. For today's episode, we focus primarily on the major categories of micrometer tints that are essential for brain and body health.

I have to confess that before the discussion with doctor Patrick, I was aware of only one of the categories of micrometer tints that we discuss. And so you'll notice that I am wrapped with attention throughout the discussion, and I think that you want to have a pen in paper handy, because SHE offers not only a very clear understanding of the biological mechanisms by which other micrometer talians Operate, but some very clear and actionable tools and items that we can all embark on if we are to optimize our brain and body health. We also discuss behavioral protocols.

Doctor Patrick is well known for her understanding of the scientific literature on sa and the use of heat and cold for optimizing things like metabolism, longevity, cardiovascular health. And i've delayed to say that we discuss that as well and how behavioral protocols can interface with supplement based and nutritional protocols. I'm confident that you'll learn a tremendous amount of information from doctor Patrick, much of which is immediately actionable.

And if you're not already following and listening to her excEllent podcast, you'll absolutely want to do that. It's found my fitness got com is the website where you can get access to. That podcast is also on apple and spotify and youtube as found.

My fitness dba ric, also has a terrific newsletter that I recommend signing up for. Its found my fit 点 com slash newsletter is where you will find IT and IT includes research on fasting， micrometres, an sleep, depression, fitness, longevity and far more. Along, of course, with actionable protocols.

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I started using the waking up up a few years ago because even though i've been doing regular meditation since my teens and I start doing yoga edra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an APP, turned out to be the waking up APP, which could teach you meditations of different durations. And they had a lot of different types of meditations to place, to bring your body into different states, and that he liked IT very much. So I gave the waking up up a try.

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Again, that's waking up dot com slash huberman to access a free thirty day trial. And now for my discussion with doctor randa Patrick ronda, welcome. Has been a long time coming even longer than you know, because even before we discuss you coming on this podcast, a guest, i've been watching your content for a very long time.

So want to start off by saying, thank you. You board the spearhead to break through from academic science to public education. So I consider you first in, and the rest of us are just in your wake. So thank you for that. It's been.

oh, that is so kind. Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely am so excited to be here having a conversation. Thank it's .

absolutely true. If anyone does the research, they will realize that the statement I just made is absolutely true. And there isn't even a close second any other public facing educators that have formal science training and do regular posting your content came in several years after you initiated IT.

So we're all grateful, but I have so many questions, but I want to start off with a kind of a new but old theme that you're very familiar with. So temperature is a powerful stimulus, as we know for biology, and you've covered a lot of material related to the utility of cold, but also the utility of heat. And as I learn more and more from your content and from the various papers, IT seems that there is a bit of A A cannon ROM in that cold can stimulate a number of things, like increases of the metabolism, fat at that.

Hopefully, i'll tell us more about those. But heat seems to be able to do a lot of the same thing. And I wonder whether not the discomfort of cold, deliberate cold exposure and the discomfort of heat might be anchoring to the same pathway.

So would you mind sharing with us a little bit about what happens when we get into a cold environment on purpose and what happens when we get into a hot environment on purpose? And i'm hoping that this might eventually lead us to some point of convergent understanding. So if you would.

I would love to let's take a step back. I think you brought up a really important point here, and I think that point has to do with the intervention chAllenging of yourself and and whether that is through, you know, temperature changes like colder heat, or through other types of stressors like physical activity, or perhaps you in dietary compounds that are bound and plants, these are things like color phenols s or flavors humans were we evolved to internally chAllenge ourselves and before we had instructions where you could basically just get your food delivered to you, before the industrial revolution you know occurred we were out hunting and I say we not humans. We were out you know gathering.

We were moving um and we had to be physically fit. You couldn't you know catch your prey if you were a sedentary slob, right? You were moving and you had to like you pick your barriers, you had to move.

And so physical activity was a part of everyday life and restriction or intimate fasting was also a part of that. This is another type of of of chAllenge. You know, we, we didn't always have a pray that we caught, or maybe temperatures were such that, you know, there was nothing for us to gather, right?

So food scarcity was something common, as well as eating plants. So getting these compounds that I mention. So this is these are all types of stress intervention chAllenges that activate genetic pathways in our bodies. These are often referred to in science as stress response pathways because they respond to a little bit of stress. You know, physical activity is strenuous, fasting a little bit stressful, heat, cold, these things are all types of little intervention chAllenges.

And um there is a lot of cross talk between these stresses and the genetic pathways that they activate and these genetic pathways that are activated help you deal with stress and and they do IT in a way that is not only beneficial to help you deal with a little stressful exercise or heat IT IT stays active and IT helps you deal with the stress of Normal meta lisp, Normal immune unctions happening, just life aging, right? So this concept is refer to as hormel, right? This is A A A little bit of stressful chAllenge that activates these stress response pathways in a beneficial way.

That is a net positive that actually you know has a very profound and tioxide anti flam to response, or you know or whatever the responses that could be. The production of more stem cells, these are cells that help regenerate different um cells within tissues or something like a topic which is a process that can clear away all the gunk inside of ourselves, pieces of DNA protein aggregates. So you'll find that these stress response pathways are activated like buy A A variety of stressors of, for example, one pathways called heat shock proteins.

And as their name would apply, one would go, oh, they're activated by heat. Will correct. They are activated very robust by heat.

And we can talk about that, but you know, you can eat a plant like broccoli sprouts, which is high in something called sulfuric fy. This is A A compound that is is sort of like a hormel compound. Where is David is collects to say it's A Z no hormel compound.

I love that. I love that term um and IT activate each dog proteins, among other things, that also activates a very powerful detoxing ation pathway called N R F two, which helps you detox fy things like carcinus that you're exposed to you guess what? Heat activites that.

So what i'm getting at is there is overlap, like cold also activites each other proteins, really, really cold. Yes, IT activites. These are stress response pathways, and they are activated by various types of stressors. Now, you know, you're gonna roblez ly activate heat shock proteins from heat versus cold, but there is some overlap. Um so I think that sort of forms the foundation there.

Yeah that's very helpful. And you know IT brings to mind in the context of the nervous system myself, people you know you only have a small kit of neurochemicals to work with. There isn't dopamine e for netflix, and then dopamine for relationship and dopamine for work at at right. The copy is a generic pathway by which motivation, craving and pursuit emerge.

Ta IT just like a janel in is A A generic theme of many different behavior or and IT seems that IT is the job of biological systems to be able to take a diverse range of inputs, even unknown inputs, like we don't know what technology will look like in three years, but you can bet that some of those novel technologies will tap into the vary systems that i'm talking about now. And um there certainly will be other stressors to come about that will tap into these pathways. I have two questions related what you just said.

Before we talk a bit more about cold and heat, you mention plants as a route to creating internal chAllenge. There's a lot of debate, mostly online, about whether not plants are our friends or plants are trying to kill us. The extreme version from carnie types, peer carniverous, ET types that that plants are trying to kill us from the plant based diet folks.

IT seems like it's more about what healthy for the planet animals and maybe for us. But if we set aside that argument and we just raise the hypothesis that plants have compounds that are bad for us, but maybe by consuming them in small amounts, they're creating this form est type scenario. So then I think we conceivably solve the problem.

We could say, yes, plants are bad for us, but in small amounts, they provide this symmetric response, and they are good for us, right? So in the same way that he is, too much heat is bad for us, too much cold as bad for us can kill us, can kill neons. But appropriately, dose in an intermit and chAllenge type of scenarios can be good for us.

Is that how I should think about plants in these compounds? Do you think of them as good for us or as bad for us? There are very sharp blade, and we want to use them potently.

I I actually I think that is almost impossible. I mean, you'd have to eat nothing but the same plan all day, every day in large. I mean, the by availability of these these compounds in the plants they attached with food may try um you know it's it's not like taking IT in a supplement form as well.

Um it's it's such that like it's it's very difficult to make IT toxic. Now there are some cases, for example, of if you eat cabbage and I think there's some group in africa somewhere that all they eat is cabbage and there is a great trigen in cambridge. It's not so far, phy, it's another compound, but that's all they eat every day.

nothing but that and they get yeah .

and they're like iron deficient in on top of that. So um you know I do think there's there you can of course make I mean there are types of plants that are toxic in small quantities, right? I mean that hack exactly .

so play this game with but you're .

not onna get poison from eating you know your you're serving of brockley at dinner, right? So I mean IT IT depends on the plant. I don't these generalizations are kind of they're just not useful. And I think that a lot of people online in the blogger sphere, they gravitate towards them because it's easier and it's a lot more sensational .

plant meat and starches on one of those rare omnok out there. Now I feel like it's rare to be an omer. But I think once you about of the social media, he said the blog is sphere. Most people, I would say ninety nine percent of people on the planet and are probably on the wars, great and someone will probably rect me but and I got the number falls below ninety ninety eight.

I think if you look at data, you know um and and when we have carniverous ata, but like I can't wait to see IT, but like right now, it's a lot of okay, well, this is a lot of anecdotal evidence and is there's a good there's a lot of good starts with anecdote. But like people change a thousand things at once and they don't realize that, but they do.

And so anodos data is only so good, right? It's a starting point um and so we don't really know long term what Carter bodies are going to do. You know they may be beneficial short term um they may you be beneficial for reasons of elimination of other things like who know right lots of possibilities.

But I do think with respective um you know that there's there's so much evidence like for example, sulfuric hy is one that I I really like because ah there's just evidence that so far fee is a very powerful activators of the nf two pathway and this is the pathway that regulates a lot of genes and lot of genes that are related to like glue to sione production, genes that involved in detoxifying compounds that were exposed you from our food like hetero cyclical ams. In fact, there have been jaa studies so these are genetically um these are studies that are genome de associated studies for people listening uh that aren't familiar. People have a variety of versions of genes and we have a gene that's able to make um hetero cyclical emese to basically detoxify IT.

So it's not as harmful um and and people that don't have a certain version of that that's doing IT well are very prone to, like Colin, cancer in in increased cancer is but if they eat a lot of brockley and craft erred vegetables, that needs tes that risk because they're getting so far fame which activate a lot of the glue if I on transfer good defiant transparency synthesizes so glut fiance a major antioxidant brain and in our in our vascular system in our body basically. So um you know there's there's evidence at IT that that eating things like you know compounds that are like sophy or brockley or blocky broccoli spouts which have like a hundred up to one hundred times more Sophia in brockley are active and blue sound in the brain there are human evidence of that. I mean that's amazing in my ah started to just .

want to make sure when so broccoli sprouts are different than broccoli and you just told us that they have much they're richer in these these compounds so note yourself I should have broccoli spout, not just broccoli. Can we cook the broccoli and still get these nutrient or do we have to a raw I confessed eating rob rockley .

is really aversive to me um so that the sofa in is formed from a compound called glue reference which is in the broccoli and the end time that converted into slpa rohan is my rosiness and its heat sensitive uh so you do somewhat lower the slurping levels when you when you cook the brockley. However, um there was a study a few years back that showed adding one gram of mustard seed powder ground. Mustard seed powder, which also contains the my rosin is enzi two year cooked broccoli increases the sofa fained by forever, so.

so that this is great. I confess I like broccoli. I, if it's cook to the appropriate density, not to machine, but definitely not raw a of eating. Rob rocky, to me, just sounds horrible, but I I like the way mustard see sounds. So just a little bit of mustard, see powder, add IT to the cooked broccoli can recover some of these company.

yes. So what I do is I will at least steam my broccoli and then I add a little bit of my Carry gold butter um and then I add some mastery powders on the top of that and it's got a little little kick like it's just a little spice, you know and if you don't case that is expire, like you should have a little kick.

And because I know people will want to know how often and how much you are you eating this every day or most days of the week.

Well, I had shifted to supplementation with sophy admitted. I admitting right now that i've been terrible about at the past, like I don't know, six months yourself.

the supplementation.

the supply and and so there's another way to get there's another compound and it's actually called marinda and doctor jet fy, he who's really the expert on sofa phy. He's good friend of mine. He's spent on the podcast couple of times.

He um he he basically thinks and now has done a lot of research on ringing a as well that it's it's like a cousin and IT activites the f two pathway similarly to sufficing. And so i've been buying this coolly cool maring a powder. I don't have .

any influence with them.

Cools a brand? Cl is a brand no but just he like has researched IT like like that specific brand. And so it's like legit it's legit you know it's like science back yeah in terms of actually containing moringer and activating international to and I added to my smoothies. So that's what i've been doing.

What what are some dose ranges? Of course, we give the usual recommendations that people should talk to their physician. That said, I said, but if people are going to, what do you take that always the let's take the David ca cLarry an approach. What do where he will talk about what he does as a way to deal with this? Of course everybody's different and should in all serious and should any time you added delete something from your uh, consumption should uh consult some trusted healthcare professional, trusted by you what do you recall the the doses .

I do a big keeping tablespoon. So marring cooling.

cooling, marine IT. It's something, a song.

It's with the key, I know. But you know for people also listening, like why would I do that? You know, I mentioned the good to find in the brain.

I mentioned that in plasma, it's it's been shown to lower DNA damage and people and in whiped d cells, it's also been shown there's been several different cities in china. China, there's a lot of air pollution, and I mentioned that is a very powerful activity. N F two.

And I know you're you're filling in with f two, but nf two is like A A transcription factor that is IT. IT is binding to a little specific sequence in a variety of different genes. And it's like turning them on or in some cases of turning them off is regulating what's being activated or what's not being activated or being turned off.

And um some of the genes are are basically these these detoxifying pathways. We talked a little bit about the good design, but there's also ones that are involved in airborne percinet like benzine. So benzine found an air pollution I mean cigarette smoke if you're smoking cigarettes still .

like please try to quit dn caner mud and heart these rest hard disease .

risk but in anyways um people and this has been repeated and more than one steady that literally after twenty four hours of taking can't remember the top of my head what the dose of so far fain from broccoli extract, brockley seed extract was a brockley sprawled extract not the sea was the sproud um anyways they started extreme like sixty percent benzine and and I mean that we get in cold .

food it's coming .

out there come there and .

yeah why not a smoker? And have to be honest, it's rare that I hear of a supplement for the first time because i've been deep diving on supplement since I was in my teens. This is fascinating and IT brings me back to this question that we have before.

I I appreciate that you answered IT very clearly. Plants have compounds that are good for us. They're not just stressing as they're activating pathways that are reparative. That's that's what i'm taking away from everything you're telling me.

right? And that our bodies were supposed to be getting that to rest, to have those pathways activated like IT is like, you know right? I mean, this is conserved among different animals like this is this is this is something that is, is, is supposed to happen. And in our modern day world, we don't have to eat plants. We don't have to move anywhere exercise, we don't have to go through periods of not eating food because we can have IT at our fingertips at any second, right? So I mean, we've got this conundrum of we're never activating these stress response pathways that we're we're supposed to activate.

We're supposed you I find that faster and again, draw a parallel to the nervous system. Um so what i'm hearing you say is that historical, we would have to go through some stress, some confront cold or cold front heat, or confront effort or or hunger, and have to exercise essentially in order to obtain these compounds. And then these compounds are repaired tive yeah I feel that resembles a the dopamine pathway.

We say, you know, there's nothing wrong with dopamine. People think that doping hits as bad or dopamine is that there's absolutely nothing wrong with dopamine. The problem is dopamine, especially high levels of doping released without the need for effort to access that dopamine is problematic.

So a line of cocaine gives you a ton of dopamine e with no effort to accept to adjust the drug where as um working for four years or more to get your degree will release a lot of doped and a lot, of course, along the way as we know. And it's considered a healthy accomplishment in most cases, a tremendous amount of were approaching the spring and they're a lot of graduations weddings are coming up now that the pandemic is kind of hopefully slowing and theyll be a lot of dopamine. High level els of dopamine are great, but only after the effort of having done something in order to access IT.

And so that's what i'm taking away from. What you're saying is that we need to go through this intermit, the different types of internal chAllenge and we can we are rewarded with particular compounds that are reparative, both for the chAllenge but then that make us stronger. IT is for me is really is IT seems a case of what doesn't kill us makes a stronger um what so you mention can .

I add to that way you said because this has been shown with, for example, so furie and animal studies, you pre condition give the animals so further in and then you expose them to like you know hypoxia or some kind of extreme c stroke condition, whatever they do, do induce that. And the sulphuric hy IT basically protects that, like they're precondition and their red their stress response pathways are primed. And so when they are then exposed to the ischemic stroke, their outcomes are so much Better, so much Better than the animals that didn't get the sulfur phin forty eight hours before whatever was you know. And and this is like this has been shown in multiple animal studies with sofa and specifically in the brain um I know mark matson doctor mark mattson he's a lot often thought of as the interment ted fasting king but you know he's A O neuroscientist and he he did publish and work and and talks about so forming as well.

I'm really glad you brought that up, that example up because many of the questions I get on social media elsewhere are about traumatic brain injury. And tbi in, you know, is just one example. And people always think, oh, sports, it's football.

Whenever you say tbi, people always think football. And I just want to just take a moment to editorial, ninety percent or more of traumatic brain injury is construction work at home. Accidents with foobar players are hockey players are martial artist, are a tiny fraction of the people who have tbi.

And concussion of various kinds is just so what happens that within those communities, many of them seventy five percent or more experiences those, so it's sAiling within those communities. But the question is, is prominent people are always asking, what can I do in order to offset brain injury? I had a concussion two years ago.

What can I do? And and it's it's been a tough question because really don't have anything for them. I mean, you tell them sleep well, eat well, exercise, but IT sounds like some of these reparative pathways um either should be explored in the context of brain injury or i'm guessing are being explored in the context of brain injury.

Yeah so a couple of things there um one is that I mean traumatically brain injury, I mean it's terrible, but it's also it's so interesting because it's also like literal real time brain aging, like you know like it's you're able to like accelerated and understand. So I I often think of when I think of traumatic brain injury, I think of so much overnight between al disease and dementia and these neurogen energy sees because there there are there are a lot of similarities that there you know and so so fur fein, I personally think and I do think they're spent some animal research T B I I mean and and so forth in mostly preconditioned rather than uh treatment. Um so again, it's like, well, I mean if you're gna, if you want a healthy lifestyle thing in your construction worker or you're filling the blank, that's I mean anyone that drives a car, I think you're at risk to some degree, right? Or bicycle bicycle .

yeah around stanford we have no I would say people demonize motorcycles. People demo ize, a lot of things, but moving fast through space on a small object next to a three thousand pound vehicle. And we've lost, we have a number of friends have died. We have another people, traumatic brain injury. I'm not, again, cycling or cyclist, but IT is it's a risky sport by any stretch. Um so in taking things like marine or eating my broccoli spratts, maybe cooking them a little less than i'm currently cooking them, putting on the the mustard seed um is there evidence that well first of all N R F two is expressed in neons, right, so those those cells should be protected or they're other cells of the body that could possibly gain protection .

from these pathworks. Um well longs for one but no, just even in pass, myles. I I mean, I think it's pretty enter of two is pretty ubiquity ly express labor. Um so there's I mean, there's there's so many animal studies that I looked at, all those things I tried to a gravitate towards human when this is a little a lot more relevant um but but I think you know overall I I I mentioned you know DNA damaged lower twenty four, twenty four thirty or four percent lower in um human of blood cells after broken brocky sprawled powder supplementation and I made a video on the six years ago on two thousand sixteen maybe and I think I have liked the references on there to exact mount I can't make .

this kind of in all .

videos to twenty sixteen but um I also had jet on the party test and he he did talk about this um but you know it's also been shown in renommist control trials to help treat autism and autistic symptoms and yet again, it's doing interesting things in the brain and um I think I think that does have something to do with the oxide distressed and you could which would be relevant for tbi treatment.

And IT hasn't been shown empirically that that helps with treatment. And but as you think uh, someone could do that study, um I think that is that this should be done honestly because it's a low hanging fruit. I mean, if there is any impact and there is at least one preliminary said that glue final is increased in the brain after humans are you know basically taking so um which is really for people .

listening that's so important because a number of compounds that um people taking supplement form don't cross the blood brain barrier or they get meta lizer ways that what's listed on the bottle almost becomes irrelevant for what yours cells actually experience so that's very reassuring. We will get back to heat and cold in this theme that I tried to serve but just fine is too interesting to to diverge at this point um from from these themes.

So what other compounds or micrometres do you place in the top tier of useful? interesting. There are animal studies.

Maybe there are hopefully also some human studies. We have talked about a few. I know you have talked a lot about omega three file assets. So if you had to do your kind of top three, um your superstars of nutrient for the brain and body sounds like we ve got one one set. What would you put in alongside them?

Oh, ega three, the marine omega three fatty assets. So these are found in marine types of, uh, you know, animals, fish called water fish, fat fish. Uh, so so there's a put there three s there's one from a plant and and that's often refer to as ala. People call IT, short apple, eny, gid. And then there's I I post a pentane ig asset or E P A and doka haxton oic asset which is DJ ah .

the most difficult words to pronounce right next and spell and right next to open ology, which if you can spell IT. I know people who have appointment in optimum gy departments that don't know how to spell opto moloch little secret there. There's an extra pee in there.

So the ala, i'm not going to attempted pronounce because your pronunciation was perfect of both of these two compounds. And you said their marine sources. So fish, so sardines caught this sort of thing.

But what about cruel? I've seen crill oil, and there was few years back we were in. Curl is a Better source for omega thees than is fish oil.

I took some cruel oil. Captions made me IT all over. So I stopped to have a selfish allergy.

No, I don't think so.

I don't think i'm not a big fan and shelf sh, but I like i've always just every known again and share something and feel fine.

So yeah we can talk about source. And so um grill is a um um a source mostly of a type of dn E P A that's in flip lipid form. So it's a fast potito coin, omega three fat acid. And um that's different than most most of the if you talking about visual supplements, that a different story. If you're talking about comparing fish eating grill, like we talking about OK.

talking about supply supplement versus of fish oil supplement, and if you if IT fits in the conversation, talking about great sources of omega three es in their whole form of ve, a bad feeling, you going to tell me, sardines are there awesome .

anyway about the taste and .

and for the potential contaminant .

um mercury I think was want no to say I was mercury and um joe was telling about like hust thirties every joe rogan was telling like studies every day and and then he had like really high mercury levels and it's really shocked because sardines are like going to low in the fish no group so that the higher APP you get like sort fish and sharks like really high merger's because you're eating all the other fish, right um but I think some brands and if you look at like consumer lab, consumer lab, there's it's like a third party site that i'm not filling ated with, but I will use them because they they do a lot of analysis of different foods and supplements.

And so you can look at like some other sardines and y've, like they have a list of like ones at her pretty decent for anyways. Um back to your question about fish oil supplements for rill oil supplements. So the one of the major differences is the fish oil supplements.

If you get a high quality one, it's in a triglyphs m um so you you've got like uh glister all backbone with three fati assets and and that's attached and those are either DHA or the epa and um or if you have a lower quality fish oil supplement, then you have what's called ethos to form. And typically um the reason for that is it's when fishel is purified, it's run through this column with alcohol or something. They cleared IT off the glistering backbone and then IT is kind of easier to leave IT like that then like really terrifying IT which cost more money so you can get IT an athletic form which um isn't as by available. And in fact, if you don't take IT with food, you're going to be in trouble. You're knock nabs or much of IT at all.

Would you see on the packaging is going to say it's in this form.

Some official brands will put IT on their website, perhaps on their packaging, but you most the time you'll have to dig ford on the website and or call them. But I think for the most part, ones that are like higher and will market IT like trick lous ride form and it's not that ethos is bad. I just means take IT with foot.

Um so so one of the major prescription omega three es out there is both of them actually levis a which is a mixture of D H A E P A as well as a sepa, which is a highly purified E P A. These are both prescribed by physicians to patients with hyper trigorin. So hydride lize, among other things. I think um maybe this regulation of lipids as well.

This is amazing for people. So these are prescription drugs that are essentially very hypotension y purified mega series, but they're given to people for lipid issues. So this is the treatment of issues with fat metabolism by giving people fat. Yes, just really I just wanted to push home again.

I'm not kind of kiddo or anything i'm i'm award, but but to just push home that we one thing that so wonderful that you've done over the years that you continue to do is to move away from these very brought sweeping statements about, you know, fat is bad. I mean, here's the case where we're saying fat is not only good IT can be used to combat issues with that metabolism and then their facts are not just one thing. They're many things.

So anyway, I just didn't want to put a little highlighter in a point of appreciation there and and make sure that people are are sensitize to the fact that if you hear that fat is badly, you have to ask what kind of fat right? And here we're talking about these omega's ies okay, so the triglyphs m can be taken with without food um and there's the prescription forms. What I can get I don't know if I can get a hold d of the prescription form unless you have high .

trigger or I have .

a friend with triggers, right? Legal folks don't don't share the scription drugs.

You talk to your doctor and you say i'm already taking this from, I mean, I don't know .

how that works anyways, what's the dosage that you recommend people get? So one way or another.

alright okay. So the the dosage that physicians prescribed for hydro klass rights, for example, is four grams a day.

four grams of .

epa of um yes of the visit a um I think levis has also perscribed of four grams a day. And um you you can get either those from your physician. My father and lovest got one described as you.

We were buying our own a mega three, four years and years is okay. You can actually get this and health insurance can cover IT and it's a really pi fied form, but you have to take IT with food. That was the bottom line. Um i've totally gone on t anges spit like you're asking .

more interesting questions anyway. No I K about mechanism then I talk about protos in why or the .

but you but I .

think that we definitely will get there. But I think a number of people now is are just really excited about what they can do for their health. And so here were were just raising the important civil megastars. And they will definitely get .

to the y in the underline. Yeah I think four grams is I mean in in fact like you know bill Harris doctor bill Harris is he's just one of the the pioneer's on omega three five asset research. He was on her podcast not you know last August and um he was saying that reason fda chose that was literally just because how much they could get people to take like I like IT wasn't like an upper and like all this is not anything above that is unsafe.

That wasn't the case. I mean IT IT IT was just purely like cost and like like you compliance, you know. So like what they can get into an appeal, the emo t they can get in, how many pills they can get people to take.

I'm smiling because, uh, are good friend such an panda at this all constitute who's a lot of important work on in erman fasting and other incredible work on circadian rythm.

Is that when I was talking to him in preparation for an episode on in her man fasting, he I said, why the eight hour feeding window? And he said, well, the graduate student who ran those studies had a partner I think he was a girlfriend as I ver call hope I didn't get that backward and the partner said, listen, you can be in lab ten hours a day, but you can't be in lab fall hours a day of. You want this relationship to work.

And so he was eight hours of feeding window, plus of measurements, time to walk into the lab part of the car at a. And so the eight hours our feeding window that everyone hold so holy was actually just born out of this relationship between these two graduate students. You know, they've been single.

I was single all through graduate school or most of IT anyway, and I lived in the lab. So if you mean we'd d all be international investing, we're mean eating fortune hours a day. That was a joke, not a good one, but just want to make clear joking.

But the point that you're making is a really good one that the four four gram amount is not a thresh hold based on anything. I accept the threshold of people's willingness to actually take the stuff. So and I think that's important for people to hear because so often we hear the eight hour feeding window, you know four grams of apa um know one hundred and fifty minutes of cardio. And it's really a question of what you can reasonably do in the study.

So I take four grammes a day. I take two in the morning, two grams in the morning, and I take two grams in the evening. I take my E P A in the morning and I take my in the evening.

So I do um I don't know if I don't think it's necessarily not necessarily. I just happened to buy. I happened to get a certain fish al supplement that's like separates them um and so like lava, lava a is a great one and it's all like in one and it's easier.

What if someone doesn't have a prescription? So I take over the counter visual, I know I feel Better because I done the experiment, are going on and off. I take the main leave for, I don't have depression, but my mood is Better, my joints feel Better. I just feel Better. And I like to think that my plate lets are slippery and and know cruising through any little obstructions in my my parents or arteries that the image I have in my head but I don't have .

my data to support that part. Yeah I mean, so if you're asking for like where do people get .

these look at the bottle and IT says two grams per serving. But then I look at its seven hundred and fifty milligrams of epa, right? Or a thousand milligrams of epa is a half of IT is epa. Then do I want to hit a threshold ld of epa or a thresh hold of of what's listed on the bottle right on the on the front of the bottle? And because my understanding is that we need to hit a threshold level of epa in order to dive these important benefits.

I think two grams is is a good retired. Now the international fish oil standards ifs o they have a website where they do third party testing of a kind of different facial supplements from around the world. And they measure the concentration of the omega facets in the actual supplement because nothing is ever what IT says on the bottle.

And then they also measure measure contaminants and mercury pcb doxies things that you'd find potentially in fish that were harmful to humans um and they also measure mercury and then oxidized fat acid. So these or make three five are Polly unsaturated fatty assets which are extremely prone to oxy ation. So please keep your fiscal and refrigerator um because colder yeah there extremely nice.

The cover and .

I know the shelf lives you know increased is lower oxinate .

perks right um so uh .

anyway they measure that and I typically like to look for they give you a total oxidation number. It's called no T O T O X totos is what we call IT for short and um I like IT to be at the least under ten, ideally under six is really hard to find all the right mixtures of things. But um people can go to this website and they can browse through the products.

I have put together an excel sheet which I have a youtube little screen cast and i'm yet to publish press the publish button on. But IT basically you have to go back and check and update because these are from different lot numbers. You know of the products they do have up to like twenty, twenty seven or something.

And so i've gone through and found my topics of high E P A brands and hyde ha brands. If I were to buy some, the ones that I would choose because of the low total oxi ation and the high concentration of either E P R D A J. Now um people can go into this themselves IT just .

takes some work. No, i'm glad you do the work. I am going to put up a tweet every week with you tag until this list is published online. Sorry around you, but I want to do IT. I know it's very statistics of me, but in service to and I chose five brands.

I tried to choose, I tried to find one and like europe and one in canada, a great election.

Thank you. You're doing that work. I don't want to do that work, and I trust you.

So yeah, I trying get two grams per day of ep from supplementation. Now put IT in the refrigerator. Mood is Better.

I made that decision mainly based on the data that i'm aware of, uh, looking at comparison of people doing that anywhere from two to four grams of E P A per day compared to A S S R tonon set of serotonin reuptake ken hibs and treatment of depression. And I don't want to take A, S, S, R. arrive. I don't have to. And fortunate, I don't have to.

But the data, by my read of remarkable people that take these things and sufficient doses, meaning the E, P, S, are able to get by with much lower dosages of sr s for depression relief or in some cases to come off S R S completely um or avoid going on enter depressive medication now of course this is not something people should cowboy. Your mental health issues are serious, but what other reasons? Love your thoughts on that to help part. And so maybe you could tell us, what are some things that getting two to four grams of epa per day is going to help with our brain and the rest of our body?

So do do you know? So I actually publish a paper back in twenty fifteen about the role of a mega three and vitamin d in depression bipolar disorder by polar disorder is geza hernia impossible behavior but um so like within that paper, like the doing background research and this was a review article by the way, I was just connected .

that no i'm A I confess I don't know the paper but I love quality reviews because the references there in are so useful.

Well there's a huge role for inflation tion, the cause of inflation tion and depression. And um you know I think we did a short animation video on this as well, like here to go back when I was in publishing that that work where you know people are injected with like Apollo sacre. I mean, this is something that where we're generating from from our gut, mostly from our gut premium service, which happens a lot.

Um ander talks in the oser called it's like and talks in lipa pola. It's basically the outer membrane of a bacterial cells when bacteria would die. So like when the immune cells and our cut come in the contact with a bacteria because we drain alcohol five days in a row or whatever, um we released under talks and or something stressed, we release and talks and into our body.

And that causes information. And so you can inject people with liya Polly sacred and cause depressive symptoms. However, if you take the same cohered people, give them epa.

And I think IT was summer around two grams, and then injecting with the lap of police. Sc, right? We're establishing causation here, right? IT totally the depressive symptoms versus a placebo.

So the placebo was sAiling control. So there is this was a placebo control because obviously hugely important for depression um IT emulate. The depressive symptoms was caused by like a police action.

amazing. And L P S like a police sacred is no joke. Years ago when I was working on thermal regulation, um we would inject animals with lps to induce fever.

Is there's the vegas nerve registers, the president L P, S. Signals to these particular hypolito c areas and cranks up body temperature. It's a signal that the body is infected, right? amazing.

So I will continue with my two grams per day. Maybe i'll ramp IT up to four. I'm not doing the D, H, A separately. If there is D, H, A in the same supplement. Is that okay?

Yeah yeah. And you know to kind of we got a lot of things to hit back on because your one of your original questions was rill oil versus vision and DHA D H A specifically um is you know in fossil lid form IT is more bioavailable. So our our bodies, you know if you're comparing exact quantity concentration regles reform versus um possibilities IT form, you will get more in your plasma ells or in your plasma plasma in your in your plasma a with cruel oil however cruel oil um supplements are so low dose like I mean good luck getting two grams of omega three from crilly and also crill supplements are toros ly the ranted I don't know for whatever .

maybe that's what made me all over.

I think they're just like I haven't found a good coral oil supplement. I pretty pretty much stay away from I me if you smell IT too and nit is like like IT just smells rans IT. Um so but the thing is, and I also published a paper on this back in twenty nineteen or yeah something like that um about DHA and foci pad form getting into the brain um in a through a different mechanism than DHA intriguers right form and so it's going through a transporter called the mfd two eight transporter and I think it's very relevant for people with an apple folio .

so within alzheimer's .

right so so like twenty five percent of the population has an a little and gene called a we four and um basically is abv but the four is is referred to as the the the bad kind of version of IT this is something in our our body is is also in our brain.

And if people have one of these versions, if they got one from their mom, where they are dad, they have a two full increase rist for all emotional dies if they get two, which is much it's much more um it's less common. I think it's like two percent of population. Something has two eels, but they have like a ten or eleven full increase.

This of our summit disease. So um there is a role for for lipid form um DHA in the brain, but you also make for Philip ID DHA inside your body. And you can do that by taking in more trigger st right forms to two grams like the magic.

More two grams or more is the magic number, I think. Um so so kind of back to like the way for visual. And I I personally think IT is one of the most powerful anti and flattering things, dietary listy le things that we can we can get easily, relatively easily that um is gonna powerfully modulate the way you think, the way you feel and the way you age.

And a variety of different types of studies kind of LED me to that conclusion. A A variety of no observational studies. So there's been lots of work by doctor bill Harris and his collaborators looking at what it's called the omega index.

So this is actually the omegle vel in red blood cells. So red blood cells turn over about every hundred and twenty days. So it's a it's a long term marker of a megory status. This is very different from ninety nine point nine percent of any study you see or any um lab that you go to to get your makes three level test that you're getting your plans my host lipid levels tested, which is kind of like you can think of IT as what did I eat a couple days before I had fish?

My magazine levels are great, but did you eat fish like that every week or was IT like, you know was like you went out to dinner so um it's not a great biomarker for long term. Al mega three status is kind of like the you fasting blood glucose levels versus the hb a one ca which is like a long term marker right of of your blood glucose levels. So the omega three index, he's done a variety of studies.

Observational studies suffer, people listening these studies, they're obviously flawed because they're not establishing causal ty, they are you know you're looking at um people's lifestyles, but in the in the case of a bill Harris work, he's measuring something. So he's measuring a megory index and he's measuring a megatron indecent people. And then looking at their mortality risk, for example, while there are cardigans, tic disease risk.

And what he has found is that, most, first of all, standard american diet has omega three index of five percent. Japan, by contrast, has an nomex three index of around ten, seven percent. Big, big difference there. And they also have about a five year increase life expectancy compared to people in the U. S.

And do you think that's mainly to the official take if ood?

So what he showed was I I think it's a big part of IT. I mean, you can all he says the only thing but what he shows in his data was that in and I I think he was framingham study where he he looked at the omean index and people that had a omean index of four percent or lower. So close to what this standard american is, a little bit lower.

Um they had a five year decreased life expectancy compared to people that had in eight percent omega three index. And so big difference. They are right, five five years life expectancy. But here's the really interesting thing into he also voted smokers and smokers and their own legacy levels since we stratified IT, right? And he found smokers that had no eeg.

Three were like the worst to ball, I mean, was like, I was just like worse, right? We all know smoking is bad for take years of our life expectancy, but smokers that had the high love, like smokers that were taken their official or eating fish, whatever was they were doing to get him up to eight percent, they had the same life expectancy as non smokers with the low make three index. Well, right? Well.

and that that's amazing and it's also amazing me that people still smoke cigarettes. But I see a lot of people of raping, and I and I and I know a lot of people consume canvas, right people, as there have been any studies of specifically of raping or people smoking marijuana and all cause mortality. I haven't seen, no, I vents see no.

they're not motivated .

enough to come in as research subject that was again, a poor joke. Um IT is hard to study people marijuana a use unless i'm told by my colleagues that study this stuff unless you offer people marijuana in which case it'll do IT um but again, they're actually not very good research subjects in all serious and because they are not very motivated or consistent and they forget their appointments so that's incredible. Um and you mention that the date on pollution related to the plant compounds earlier. So almost like these things are again are acting in a reparative way.

food legos are I mean, they are resolving inflation tion. They're like blunting inflation tion. They are they're doing so many different like they affect so many different parts of the inflammatory path, which is I think IT plays a huge role in in the way we age, the way our brain ages, the way we feel our mood, just our joints all that. And so it's it's amazing, but it's not you know, I love fishel.

I feel Better when I take IT. I tried to eat some fatty fish a couple times a week. I do want to just touch on food sources for a moment.

First of all, are there plants that original mega trees. And second by, I have some friends who are really into meet, and I like me a lot, that argentina, I don't eat very much of IT. I try any high quality mates and relatively limited amounts, but I do IT pretty often. But i've been told by these sources of a questionable authority that if an animal grazes on really good grasses, for instance, that the meat can contain a lot of omega's, which in principle, make sense based on this alegre index, because you tell me that a lot of this omega is requested red into the red blood cells. So if I meeting high quality grasped meat, and the grasses had to megathrust the mistakes of all mega trees .

or no um so there was a study published that compared conventional meat so meet that is the that animals are fed corn or soir whatever.

which is terrible yeah but for animals and people, as far as I can tell, i'm sure i'll i'll get some attacks, but that's okay. I won't read those comments again, a joke. I read all the comments, but IT seems to me that these animals have to get either retaking fish well or eat plants that are very rationally magazine in order for that the meat to actually contain efficient.

so the meat comparing the conventional meat to, like the grass fed, gonna pass raised cows or cattle. Ah there were higher levels of alpha and lake acid. And L A is the IT can be converted into E P A, D H A um but the conversion is very inefficient and very dependent on a variety of factors, including genetics.

S genetics, a huge you know regulator like some people can do that much Better, others like you're getting like five percent of conversion to epa. H estrogen is a major regulator of making that more efficient and and make sense because pregNancy, when your extra gines goes through the roof, I mean, these makes us to play a very important wrong brain development. So you're you know, women are supposed to be converting any a they can into the longer chain or make a three, five assets, right? So so um estrogen does affect that.

But I would say plant sources, if you're looking for the ala plant sources would be you all that flax seeds, those are probably highest. But if if a person is a vegan or a vegetarian, their best bet is to actually get micro logy oil. And you can supplement with micro logy oil because micro logy do it's they do make the the D J. And so um that would be a Better source for for people that that are vegetarian and began rather than doing the the flaxseed oil because that conversion inefficiency. You know the ensigns that convert A L A into uh E P N D H A aganda, it's inefficient.

And then for people that eat fish sardines, he said salon salmon and you have to eat skin as I understand .

I have so it's good with il. Yeah and the reason I says like like I I think the best would be wild alexa salmon versus the farm rays because the farm rays, again, they're feeding them. They are feeding court. They're feeding him like grain and stuff and then they give them as to santon. So as stannin is a crotona ID, it's the crotona oy that's in things like cruel acquisitions that make their red pigment.

It's also being used now as a supplement, and there's a prescription form to try rescue some age related vision laws because of the role of the vitamin a pathway and photo receptors. Yeah well.

you know actually the corney's themselves so neons is and then they are really good at the question, single oxygen, which is some damaging right to the.

yes, we age because the retina cells, cells of the irs. So metabolic tive the accumulate a lot of reactive oxygen species, and my country will repair. And limiting reactive oxygen en species is a major theme of trying to rescue vision.

I think that's a whole other podcast and story. There's a really interesting data now on the use of red light to try and trigger these pathways from land. That's my good friend of many years, an amazing scientists and jeffrey's labor of universe college london. And we should talk .

about that at some point.

if that study twenty, twenty a second, yeah, it's looking real. I mean, you know, y're cautious, they appropriately dish and cautious about IT. You know, I was joke of those.

Studies have been done over here. Everyone had already know about IT. Blind is a very conservative guy. But we've done this stuff now in in pigs, in roading models. And now also two studies in humans is looking pretty tty interesting.

Um so sardines, but also ancho es, i'm an I by the way, I hate all the food items that i'm describing. I can barely tolerate its them. I don't like fish at all.

I like life. I fish. thanks. When I was a kid, I just, no, I find fish, unless it's in sushi four, I find IT absolutely repulsive. And I don't know why. I probably have .

some mutation. So raw fish is actually higher, and mercury then cooked.

that's good. I don't really like to see that much. Anyway, you're giving me great reasons to naughty fish, but except I shoot these other fish sources or supplement more heavily.

that's the best stage I need certain. Like every day my like first meal almost is like, can certains and an opposite to with .

like avocado is good.

I love yeah with a little little lemon and then some little .

hot sauce like vivo ea .

cota is a very good in mono and SATA fat ma high and Polly and satan fat mag three. really. I mean, it's it's it's either the the D H N E P that's the marine sources fish or it's the plant A A source which is like the flax seed or the wall.

So it's rough. I mean, of all these companies now are making these plant based. Products that takes like meat, my wishes that they would just make a fish that tastes like a stake.

But the fish come out, alby know the ones that they farm raised because they don't eat .

any of the i'm joking, I don't want a genetically modified fish. The taste like a stake. All that I love, the taste of stake. The point here is that if you don't, if one doesn't see themselves regularly consuming these fish, these fish sources of omega trees, IT seems to me that the only way to really get them is from supplementation.

And supplementation is a good way to get a high dose. And to get back to your dose point, there was A A couple of studies that that basically you I think there there is some way they shows that people that are in the four percent omega index range in order to get to the eight percent, right? The five year increased life expectancy for comparing the two groups was to supplement with at least two grams.

IT was about two grams a day. And that, and I think that was a little bit less of his triglyphs. M, but I think two grams is a good safe number.

So most americans that are not eating lot of fish and they are not supplementing are probably around to forty five percent of make three index and to get to the eight percent. And then and I think that's a good empirical way of thinking about IT, right? okay. Well, I want to get to that eight percent. By the way.

i'm almost sixteen person I was going to ask about, about testing. So so where can somebody measure where how can somebody measure their omega y index, which you, again, just to remind people, the essentially the percentage of omega is that you have in your blood, with the caveat that the omega index will be heavily biased by what you ate in the previous days.

Three, inc. S okay, so .

understood. I thought you said in red blood cells, I eight, seven and two days ago, my omega index is gona go out.

No, that was just, I understand. So so most people are measuring like if you look at a lot of studies and honestly, Andrew, I think a lot of the reason for flicking data is, is because people are measuring plasma omega three levels OK like a fossil lip. It's in a forest ful lip, right? Your fossil lips are Carrying thing.

These are like for proteins like are Carrying things like omega intrigant ized itself and shuttle him around. So um the omega three index is actually in the red blood cells and red blood cells take one hundred and twenty days to turn over. So if you're going to a do a baseline test um if you wanted know before supplementing what your level is, you have to wait one hundred and twenty days before doing the second test after supplementing to know how much you you went up because that's how long IT takes for your red blood sell turnover.

So the omega three index on bill Harris has a um a company that he he cofounded is called omega quant and they measured the OMG three index. They have a variety of different index test you'd new like a basic one or a little more advanced IT IT. It's a little blood spot thing yeah and you know that he uses money to like fun al back into doing the little research he's like out.

They're doing all source of interesting studies on our megastore is great, but I the omega is great. Um I think that honestly, more people and more researchers should be using IT because the conflicting data all IT always comes down to what we're measuring, the sensitivity of IT. You know are we even measure anything? So you know you're you're giving someone five hundred milligrams of DHA and you don't see the effect.

What did you measure what their levels were? And did you measure the o omega three index? You know, there's all sorts of problems with reno ized control trials.

And I think that just we need to like as scientists, we need to come together and like make some progress. I mean, you know, let's all talk to each other. Let's let's figure things out like this.

This test is out there. IT should be used. IT should be used not just by bills group.

I like everyone yeah well and learning so much for you be and I agree, we need more collaboration. I always enjoyed really fruitful collaborations in my lab at stanford. Covering is just so much more fun online.

There seems to be a bias, more droids, creating silos as opposed to bridges. But I appreciate that you bring up the need for more collaboration and and knowing which measures are. And in this case, that now thank you for the clarification.

I understand this. A mog three index is going to be best. You mention you. So basically what now and I look at you, I think you are sixteen .

percent OMG a and dolphins or percent. I'm almost.

Is that your goal? You're trying to get there to do the interesting actually, they should ably do something we are trying to achieve the omega a ratio of your favorite ite species.

Um now that we've covered a bit of how to get these things into one system depending on what one eats at settle and some of the Better measures, how is a mega three and some of these other related lipids, how are they having these positive effects in my mind? And this this is incredibly elementary, but my understanding is that at some level they're making plate lets more slippery is that you are not I hope i'm happy to be wrong. How is IT possibly impacting my mood is IT through the synthesis of membrane on neurons that allows neurons to release more transmitter like they are done. Mean, I mean, what are some of the proportion reported and known mechanisms?

I think some of the the most well known mechanisms do you have to do with the the omega three fat acids being very powerful regulars of the inflationary process in some way, shape or form, whether that has to do with resolved in that are produced. So these from the metabolic ts of like DHA, for example, resolve in player role in resolving inflammation.

You want your inflaming response to be activated when it's supposed to be, but you won't resolve that inflation tion in the inflaming response in A A timely manner, right? And resolve is help do that. And so resolved in are one.

And then there's specialized pro mediating molecules S P M that also help resolve the inflation tion. There's like you mention the luca trains and prostate glands and these things are being affected by epa, and they do affect platelets and platelets aggregation, and you they do affect that whole pathway as well. And so there is just and there's you know I think is so many different ways and inputs.

And so when we talk about information honestly is that is a big general term, but you're talking about when you're talking about your tone and release um at the level of neurons, you know we know that these flame tary molecules cross the blood brain bear and I just mentioned to go about injecting people like a police city and causing depressive symptoms um you know it's known that that omega three actually specifically E P A, is able to help serotonin inflation tion inhibits the release of serotonin. And so epa is actually able to blunt and film mentally responses. I want what DHA as well.

DHA does that through resolve ins and stuff. And this then helps more theoretical and be released because you you're not having so much inflation tion, getting into the brain and affecting serotonin release, right? That's one mechanism.

And then another would be, well, DHA itself has been shown. It's it's a very important fatiha. So that makes up cell memories, many cell memories, including in our neurons.

And as you very well know, Andrew, the structure and function of receptors of transporters, these membrane bound proteins on the surface of ourselves, including neurons, uh, are affected by the membrane fluidity. You like how rigid and how fluid the cell membership is, and DHA clays a role in that. And so for example, in animal studies, if you make an animal deficient in DHA, they are therefore onic receptions, dopamine recept tors.

They're affected because the structure of them is affected through the fluidity of the membrane. And so I think that's another mechanism. And and i'm talking sort of general because i'm not a neurotic scientist.

nobody makes perfect sense. I mean, we know for this is no plasticity and the almost always involves the recruitment of more receptors or an improvement in some feature of receptors to no transmitters. And they literally move laterly in the members and they kind of flow around like little rap. Sometimes they are, in fact, in lipid raft.

And so IT makes perfect sense that these molecules like DHA, which are part of the structural fat of the neon, because, of course, the outsides of the neurons are basically fat, not just a melin that people have heard of, but the actual membranes, that if getting that right, you wouldn't want IT as rigid as concrete, but you wouldn't want IT as soft as need to come up with something here. What's like guy stuff that kids play with? It's like that goo anyway, that yeah it's disgusting and it's too soft to be a member .

in for an and comments .

and with that in you don't want your neurons to be that guy and yet you don't want them to be like concrete either about it's about and in mentioning DHA, i'm just going to I realize i'm backtracking, but I want to make sure that we close all the hatches for people we talked a lot about epa. But our food sources of DHA um that you particularly attractive either by taste or by potty for DHA what are just a few that we could throw out because I am I am aware that there are supplements where you can get a nice ratio of eb DHA where you take them separately as you do. But if I want to make sure that i'm gave enough DHA, what do I need to be sure of meeting .

on a regular basis? Well the fish is packaging the DHA apa in ratio o and but I I also do eat salmon row which is um very salt. I and it's a it's a really high source of the fossil coley DHA that we is. Yes, and actually I that I like for you.

do you yeah so i'm discovering something about myself. This is was not meant to be no nutritional psychotherapy, but you're doing that for me anyway. I'm discovering that yeah I like eating embro ic fish.

I just don't like eating sh OK .

so fish eggs are are OK the caviar best caviar yes.

And and that's a good source of the fosti pid form, and I was consuming that a lot because I wanted to get the lipid form. Um so and it's actually really good. There's been some animal studies and piglets and road in as well showing that consuming fost Philip DHA a during feedle brain development like gets weight like ten times more DHA in the brain. Again.

it's make sense based on feedle development. So do I need to in a buy blug c stuff can get .

pretty expensive. Again, it's a matter of preference. And if you're supplementing with your two to four grams official, I mean that you're going to get fast full a bit form anyway because your bodies going to make .

IT OK have seen some containers of of what I assume to be quality fish egs that are not at the caviar level that you can find in, in the Better grocery stores that aren't super expensive. I wouldn't give as low as to go eat. For instance, like fishing date, like when your kids used to go fishing, you put the fish eg.

On the thing that's probably not good, although it's good enough for the fish. Okay, only have joking hair. Fox, i'm just trying to protect you from yourselves.

Don't get any crazy ideas about eating fishing bait. Um okay, so that's great to know. So we have these plant based compounds. We have the omega series. So I P A D H N, then you mention there's a third category. What would you place in your third category of foods or supplement based nutrient that our health brain and our body health can really benefit from?

I mean, I think the most obvious would be vitamin d, which is actually, as you is there, right hormone that we produce when we're in the sun, depending on the time of year um we can make IT in our skin and depending on how much melanin we have our skin or whether not wearing sunscreen or how old we are, it's a very there's a sliding scale on how efficient that processes.

And it's as I understand, there's an inverse relationship with the darker the more darker, the darker your skin is naturally, the more vitamin you need to consume.

Is that right? Well, the darker your skin is on, the harder IT is. So there was a study out of the university, chicago. This is several years ago where they looked at on african americans and um compared afgan americans to the casion with light skin, fie skin and how how well they could make vitamin d from sun exposure and um and how long they had to be in the sun to make x amount right and IT turns out that afra americans with darker darker pigmentation which protects them from the burning race designers and natural sun screen had to stay in this on like six times as long as someone with none of that natural sunscreen.

So um I think the the take home there is um you know a lot of people with a darker skin living in subsaharan in africa, or people living in india with darker skin or in the Philippines. You know these equation al regions, whether their intensity darker can quick because it's protection from the burning the adapter are in the sun war, right? Yes, and they're getting more by him, indeed.

But that may be moved to united states like many soda, or in a place where you know U V, B radiation isn't, you know, getting to the atmosphere twelve months out of the year. It's only getting there four months for example. Um or even living in our modern day society where people do not go outside anymore, I think we're inside where our laptops in school or at work when our typical whatever.

So um supplementation does play a major role not only for people with um you know darker skin that that are now tightly all the time, but for everyone. Seventy percent of the U S. Population has inadequate vitamin d levels.

Seventy of the whole us.

So this is everyone. Um and and so I think that insufficient levels defined as less than thirty ano grams per million leader um and and that sort of defined by the the androgen society looking looking, looking at a lot of different aggregate studies and all cosmetically, for example, there's been a lot of different meta analyses of all cosmetically studies where vitamin dee levels really seem to be ideal between forty to sixty ano grams per mulatter.

And so um in order to get to that level, if you are not outside all the time, live in southern california where you're always outside without sunscreen on. I always wear sunscreen because i'm trying to protect my skin from so many wrinkles and stuff, right? But also skin cancer is, you know, somewhat of an issue as well.

So so so basically the point is that vitamin D, A steroid mal, meaning IT, actually bins to a recept and another receptor demonizes with advice on the right now, one reception. And that complex goes into the nucleus of a cell where your DNA is. And IT recognizes little sequences of DNA called vitamin response elements are called specific sequences of DNA, that this complex vitality bound, but the vitality reception goes inside and recognizes and turns on a whole house. Genes turns off a whole host change. I mean, this is this is important stuff like imagine seventy percent of the population having insufficient to stop their own right, the steric orme .

which we might be headed there um but probably not no, I think that its names are very important. And I think that one of the issues is that vitamin d is called a vitamin d.

It's not called um D H A or you know very in blub ba IT doesn't sound like A I also am glad you're mentioning a skin as the major kind of interface between the environment and vitamin d synthesis because a lot of people think of skin is just a protective chief around us or something to adorn ourselves with earrings or tatoes or whatever. But skin obviously service those rules. But the skin is an underground organ.

IT has the capacity to make things that impact hormones and to make hormones. This is beautiful study out this last year where this took place in over an israel, where they had people get outside for twenty or thirty minutes a day, three times a week, exposing a um culturally acceptable yet you know a substantial amount of their skin um during that time and saw big increases in test after on an estrogen and this is through a correcting aside to pathway involving p fifty three. They did this was done in humans, but they did some knockout studies in pero.

And what the study told me or reminded me is that skin is an underground organ. So the idea that son could trigger the activation of of A A production of a hormone on is really interesting and makes total sense. So when vitamin gets into cells and it's binding to these vd R V is what what sorts of things are they trigger? So like for test after we know it's gonna gg protein syntheses muscle grow tender strength of with rogen, it's going to be keeper irons going, your joints s feeling good. I was mind people that um by the way, because that guys are always seem to want to increase your text and reduce their estrogen just remind people if you reduce your estrogen guys your libido will plump to near zero don't crush your estrogen IT also make you stupid um if you're not already stupid IT will make you stupid um so S R G vitally the important for males and females when invitation in d gets into cells, what sorts of things is that stimulates?

okay. So first of all, it's it's regulating more than five percent of the protein and code human genome more than and this was I say more than because when I was looking at this data really in depth back in is starting you know twenty twelve to twenty fourteen.

Um IT was that and then it's now grown but um one of the important things that you'll find interesting that I published on back in twenty fourteen was that i'd gone through this this big published database where someone had not published all these genes. They found beauty R E. And um basically I found that trip define hydrox sales one and trip define hydrox lays two was on there.

And so then I start looking at the sequence and doing some encyclical work and IT turns out that um the V D R S and trip define high drugs lays too. So for people listening, trip to fan, hydrox lays is an and time that converts trip to fan into serotonin. So trip to fan is what we and we asked that we get from our food.

You convert serotonin, you convert to preventing to serotonin into the gut, in the gut. But you also do IT in the brain. However, serotonin does not cross the blood brain berrier.

So trip to fan has to get into your brain, and then you have to convert IT to share tony in your brain. Well, the end time that does that in your brain is called trip. Defend hardrock lays too and it's activated by vitamin d. Um the one of the gut is actually trip defend high drgs lays one some of my my publish work hypothesize that I might actually be repressed by vitamin d because IT has a sequence, the sequence itself uh this twelve nucleotide sequence IT can determine to some degree whether it's going to be accepted or turned off.

And so like I was able to kind of look at that and think, oh, maybe this that and so then there have been some groups that have confirmed more with in vivo and or in vro studies as of mine was all in silicon on all that stuff. But anyways so they're tony, a really important one. But most people, I mean this is regulating our immune cell immunity. Stem is regulating uh, our blood pressure, you know, all that that water retention, you know I mean bone, of course homeostasis five percent, more than five percent. I mean, I can't tell you like so much.

I mean, and with seven zero percent of the U. S. Population efficient, i'm going to think that this could be the linchpin in a number of really important issues.

So supplementing vitamin d three is what I Normally hears the I do I take, I think I end up taking five thousand, I U sometimes ten. I use a vitamin d three per day. Just done that for a long time.

And i've had my levels tested in their in range. But I have a family member, i'll just mentioned this. I have a family member who was not feeling well, just kind of feeling off a little low, that had some digest use. This one on along the time was taking on my recommended fifteen thousand I use of d three and was still deficient in d three.

Now takes and i'm not suggested anyone do this is a special case perhaps but no chronic illness uh, that we're aware of needs to take thirty thousand I use per day in order to bring their d three range just into Normal, which is to me is striking because they eat quite well. They're a healthy weight at sea. But and it's made a tremendous difference in terms of their mood.

Now, of course, is correlative. Now they feel Better. They're doing IT, who knows, are probably also getting outside more. But I mean, I think people need to get tested. They need to get their d three level tested. But where where and what is a good starting range for people to think about the three supplementation and again, foods. That can increase d three.

So vitamin d three is a good way to supplement with IT. D two would be a planet source. You often find IT as fortified. And like foods like milk, usually d two.

there's been up a one still drink milk. Besides kids here is like you can't .

find calls milk .

get milk. The other one they're .

fortified .

and nose as .

well are are .

yeah defied and i'm and all .

that stuff yeah they are all that stuff. Vitamin d is naturally to some degree and fatty fish like, you know like you think about cod liberal alright he has varied but it's not you're not onna correct a deficiency with eating with eating fish for your iamb like you're either going to correct IT with some exposure being in the right area, having the right amount of sun and being the right age. Um because as you get old, you become very inefficient at doing that. Converting um vitamin d, making vitamin d three years ten .

that's value what was going on here because this person is getting up in there.

There's a lot of single nuclear high, more fizzles. We talked about apple we previously but there's a variety of uh genes that people had very common actually. In fact, i've had many people that have had to do done that exact same thing.

So um measuring your invitation levels before and after supplementation is the only way you going to figure that out, right? Very important if you don't measure IT, like you don't know like you can't know what you don't measure. So um so there's a variety of snips that basically make that conversion inefficient.

And in fact, they've been a lot of these media render ization study. So these are studies where people, scientists, will look at common snips, people that have these common variations of a gene that's a little more than one percent of the population is not a brain of mutation, is actually found in a sizable percent of the population. And then we've looked at various outcomes and um a lot of times they're look at genes that are also involved in some kind of lifestyle factors.

So vitia indeed and snips that basically make the conversion of vitamin either vitamin deprecation into d three or in d three into twenty five hydrogen y viti d or into the active seri hormone, which is one twenty five hydroxide AMD. And there's a variety of different snips that show people. And so you're not looking at vitamin d levels at all.

You're looking at just the snips. And you know, if they have IT, they have no body AMD. okay. So it's really a way of doing a beautifully randomized control trial with an observation study because you are you're not bias. You know vitamin dee levels are also associated with health.

People that are have higher by amin d are either outside more than more physically active or they're aware of their health and their supplement, right? So you always have to worry about that when you you you're doing an observational ship at dealing around ization is beautiful for that reason where you now just random people randomly ly have these genes and it's not like there's no health status, like if you have the snip, like your friend, like your family member who is healthy and all that, you know they were healthy and yet they couldn't get their d levels up, right? So these these mandean rentin zo they found that people that can't convert um into the the press of the twenty five pyroxyle itunes which is usually it's measure it's the most stable former vami d in the body.

They have a higher all cosmetically if they can't do IT. So people with you know they don't have to have a lower all cosmetically. They have a higher respiratory related mortality.

They have a higher cancer related mortality. So um to me now why did I get on this rain? Oh because your your family member.

So basically they also are more likely to get multiple escrowed. This this has all been done with mendelian reposition. And so um IT really does hammer home the importance of measuring your item d levels and being being a very proactive about that.

I mean you you get IT done anywhere your doctor will do IT you ask them to do IT, you know? So i'm supplementation tion wise. Um typically if you don't have one of those snips for for the most part, taking one thousand eye use of item d will raise blood levels around five nanograms per mille leader.

So let's say you're deficient. You're twenty nanograms per million ader and you want to get to forty, you're gna need at least four thousand. I use, if you are Normal, don't have any of these snips that change your metal. Is invitation.

right? Doesn't matter when you take IT relative to sun exposure time of day with or without food.

I've seen some not a great preliminary evidence suggesting maybe time of day is important. I don't think IT rt, like I can't seem to you know to find anything that really suggest because like the ford to actually be converted into the hormone, I mean stored .

just still at the right on are slow .

yeah it's not like a media thing, right? So like you know, maybe we'll get some new data that's like otherwise, but I just .

simplifies the problem anyway as so for people who are going to be stubbed and not get their d three levels test or their d levels tested and simply say, up, i'll just take some deef um that was me, by the way, until I got tested. I through five thousand, I used into the mixing figured, well, it's not gonna ill me and bringing my vitamin levels up. And I realized that's a bit of a of of a course way to approach IT.

But I feel fine and i'm still breathing in a military. So is, is that reasonable? A thousand and five thousand I used for most people be reasonably safe. Again, we're not making just assuming that people are gonna jump to IT without the blood test.

Of course I think that um if if we look at the the the literature the scientific literature IT is extremely hard to get like hyper kelme a which would be the major concern with really high levels of three supplementation. I mean we're talking like hundreds of thousands of I U A day for a long time.

So yes yes now .

the the upper tolerable intake was set by the um the the medicine institute to be four thousand IT was just like this safe IT was kind of like one of those things where it's safe. I personally take five thousand. I use IT as well.

And um you know my levels really hover around fifty grams for meal and I I do out. I don't put sunscreen on like all the time like I do put on my face and where happy like some of my skin is being exposed when I do. You make IT you know from the sun as well.

But glad you brought up um the fact you keep arms exposed if you because in these studies that I mentioned before looking at sun exposure on skin and increases in other hormones disaster and station mainly IT was IT became clear from looking at those data that the amount of skin that you expose is important which makes perfect sense when to hear that. But I think most people thin.

I'm out in the sun, but are you wearing shorts and A T shirt or you wearing a switcher and it's a hoody or no? Are you all covered up about in the sun? What that might be great for setting your skating rythm by way? Like to through the eyes because as the primary mechanism for that but seems to me that the the more of your body surface that you can safely and appropriately please folks appropriately exposed to the sun, the more victim indeed you're going to create, right? So lining out and on your back deck in shorts and A T shirt with arms exposed and legs exposed is a very different stimulus.

Then walking around in genes and and a sweats ery right? Okay okay um especially if you have some screen on your face. I know IT almost seems like trivial ly simple, but I not sure that people are used to thinking about their skin as a interface to create these hormones. Yeah, so surface area matters.

By the way, you there been studies looking at, uh, people that are deficient in vitamin d. In this case, IT was an african americans that we're given a four thousand I U A day by a in d supplement to bring them back to sufficient levels. And um this was this was a smaller, smaller study then um I would like but IT reverse their epigenetic aging by like three years because again, it's a hormone, it's regulating more than five percent of your protein and coding human g there there is been studies looking at vitamin d receptor knock out mice. And I I use this a lot in my presentations when i'm talking about vitamin and longevity.

But um if you look at these animals, the vitamin d recept, as I mentioned earlier, vitamin bines to the receptor and then IT complexes with the retina ID recept, and they go into the neglect of the complex. And right you turn on and turn off genes. Well, if you get rid of that receptor, which is what you can do in animal studies, um you you can sort of determine like what affects there will be with no vitamin d right? Like what how do you study? No no vami. And so um what was found was that these animals, and in fact, I don't think IT was a complete knockout or you know because .

I think that might be A Y gee speak a gene is very is vastly reduced in its function number and function number people know what I mean but but isn't eliminate completely yeah right.

Well, these animals, if you look at them after the age of four months, I mean, the mice look like, I mean, they they accelerated aging, their wrinkle, they have no hair. I mean, they just, I mean, their life lifespan shorter. I mean, just you could look at this animal and not know anything about my or work with them. Maybe like that animal looks like it's, you know, of course my wife spends wrong, like two to and A F years, but like five hundred years old.

right? Looks in graduate actually, graduate school was a lot of fun. I'd like to think I age backwards in graduate school, which is not sure.

I look at the photos, I definitely aged forward. You, on the other hand, look exactly the same way you did ten years ago. I'm not saying that to flatter, but absolutely true.

I mean that the data of the data, it's it's remarkable. So I think it's i'm defending going to trying get my mega three percent of ge job that i'm not going to hindred all on that. But clearly, you're doing a lot of things, right?

So if i'm taking vitamin d three, I still need to get out into the sun. K, O, K, I think a lot of people don't know that, or at least I have family members that have been a little bit resistance. Ly, I take my vitamin d, so I don't need to get outside as much.

I think people are really afraid of getting out into the sun because they're worried about melanoma and um and i'm as to be on I am scared of sunscreen as I am a milano e like that. Some of the things in the screen are really spooky, mainly the compact. And here i'm not one of these conspiracy turing. Tap water was in proxy like people created. I drink tap water, have the occasional cross on or dona, i'm not, you know, i'm ninety percent, ninety percent the time i'm doing the right things, the right way I think although i'm now gonna prove on them with this new knowledge but um but I don't like what I see in most sunscreens because if you look at these compounds, they cross the blood brain barrier. I don't want compounds crossing the blood brain .

berry oxi dioxide.

some of the trickles scenes that are also in these cleansers. Ers, I mean, IT, once you know A A little bit about neurons for he realized that the neurons you got, our basic, the ones you got for entire life. Now there's a reason why there's a blood brain barrier, a blood over and a blood tests as barriers because the genetic material resides in the testy overs and the brain, those neurons don't turn over.

There are a few new neurons, but not that many unless your a mouse, Frankly. And so protecting those is very key and a lot of things and sunscreen um are downright dangerous. So I think there are are sunscreens that they are safe, but it's very hard to figure out which sun screens are free of these compounds. I'm amazed that they're still on the market rank.

I ve always geared towards the ones with the the minerals that are like reflecting IT IT. IT is somewhat difficult to generate things all away through the skin, into the in, into the bloodstream. I don't, but I don't know. Maybe some of these compounds get in there easily. I have seen the evidence of some of those things.

Yeah, there is some of them. They go transferral and they .

and they get in, okay, well, I know that there some of them react with the sun. And while they do protect from the uva and or b, they like form mass of react auction species and cursin an. I mean, it's like the very thing you're trying to protect yourself from might actually cause we don't know. I mean, like it's completely speculation, but there is like I think the more more, more evidence come out with some of those compounds and I I can't remember all of the month the top of my head um a lot of high end ones also have, you know it's the chemical sunscreen ones, the chemical ones, right?

We should do i'm proposing that we do a journal club, a journal of focus where academics get together and read read papers, and they get together and they pick apart the is there is a strong correlation between being an early graduates student and being the most critical. Because once you ve actually post some papers, you realized that know most studies people are doing their best within the context of what they can do.

But be great to do a journal club at some point about sunscreens because i'd love to really figure out what's in these compounds. I mean, people are using them like crazy. And i'm not one of these people like I won't use commercial tooths or anything like that.

I like I said, I drink tap water, I commercial tooth based, whatever. But when he comes to sun screen, IT freak me out because some of these compounds do go transdermal and some of them cross the blood brain berrier. And i'd like to keep my neurons free of that stuff.

Anyway, we're speculating now we're but get out in the sun and get your d three levels up. okay? So we talked about the explain these compounds, the omega thies and d three unless there's something else that you are just absolutely must throw into the mix, I probably will return us to the conversation.

And I opened up with, which is about cold and heat, which admitted lately, I pull this off that that path. So I want to take full responsibility for that. But before I do that, I just want to offer you the opportunity. Is there are there is there anything that to supplement based or food based compounds that you, you know, you think are especially useful for brain and body?

I do you think magnesium is important and there as well. I mean, I think, you know, again, about forty percent of the U. S. Population doesn't get enough. Magnesium is in the central mineral, responsible getting from our diet .

and invoked in thing.

IT is IT all. It's also involved in vitamin metabolic. And in fact, being deficient in magnesium may make IT more difficult for you to actually make vitamin d hormone.

So that one twenty five hidden. Xy, so one of those other factories, again talking we talked about genetics, but there's also magnesium status as well considering forty percent, that's a big number. Um now you know magnesium ms also involved in making atp the the energetic currency of ourselves.

You know basically all of ourselves need A T P to do anything. And um there are is also involved in nizing ATP as well as DNA repair and sims. These are insides are involved in repairing damage to our DNA.

I personally think that magnesium insufficiency is A A insidious type, causes an insidious type of damage daily that you can't look in the see, like when you're deficient and vitamin see you're like my guns are falling a party have curvy, right? But like you can see DNA and you can see that, but it's happening it's happening right now in my body is happening in your body is happening. Normal meta lem is happening, you know every day.

Um but we repair that damage. We have repair enzymes in our body called the parents ms. They require magnesium.

Magnesium is a co factor for them. What that means? No, a co factor means. And I needed to function properly. And so, uh, without that co factor, they're not doing there properly.

And I like the the way I like to think about magnesium is easy because people go what we should like, right? Actually that's an next question. Magnesium is at the center of a core file molecule.

Core film is what gives plants their Green color. So darkly, fee Greens are high in magnesium. Um that's one of the end.

Basically, what is the forty percent insufficient insufficiency in the U. S. Tell us people are not eating their Greens.

They're not eating their Greens. They're eating their package food there in the processes. Standard american diet isn't really high. And dark leafy Greens, uh, so so dark leafy Greens are how I like to get my magnesium. I think IT comes along with all these other important. I mean, you get housing and them you get that body to in k one, you're getting a lot of other microbial troats and you're getting other compounds that we don't know about. And once that we know about like so versac right.

as with broccoli, do I need to eat the dark leafy Greens raw, in this case little more open to IT because I actually like the taste of there. I say kale and um kil are darkly for Green right start. It's obviously not.

Yes, i'm a try from meaning i'm not i'm not color blind, but I just want to make sure that falls under the strict is everyone some wild? I eat my vegetables. I like avocados and you were my my votes. And vegetable love vegetable les, so also, but so kill. What are some .

other examples? And kill spinage chart, like swiss hard rainbow charred remain let us .

means the bitterness and important .

component to this every museum no but for for sofa fae so far vane for crisp err vegetables, that would be the the brassica family. Um but your question about cooking them so magnesium is IT is bound of the food matrix and um and IT can be somewhat less by available um but you know so cooking IT can somewhat release the the magnesium but IT goes into the water too. So like you have to like either steamed or kind of you know like get your water. And with that, yeah I personally don't worry about IT don't worry I think .

like you don't worry.

i'm not. But I also like I too supplement with magical, I do take around. So supplementation with magnesium, I mean, this, we could go on and on, let's keep this the short and week, because we can get back to the other stuff. But um, you know, I can cause gito stress that, like hide doses, I persume like to take around one hundred and thirty or hundred and thirty five. Milgram, that always not like a huge bowlers to my god.

I think that depends on the room. Yes.

yeah, I mean, you can take like magnesium three and eight for example. And you know, isn't as IT doesn't affect the got much.

my museum sitti.

yeah.

IT is a prety pretty porton got stimulus I mean, I feel like it's a little bit harder to .

make IT I take a one hundred and thirty five milligrams should be pretty good and situate actually I boy do we want to go here.

So I mean, it's up to you and we we don't have to I personally, i've been supplement with many years for a long time. Yeah I I use three and eight and this license and mate for different reasons. So I yes, I would love to go there if you're if you were well.

I would think melite would be the best. And that has to do with the short chain out assets being good for the guy. And a lot of work done by a former colleague, mine and good friends work chickango a showing that the short chain vidette mallet like, but but specifically malate really like other major ones that get into to the good, ephemeral cells and energy source for them might to country a and the goblet t cells. So anyways, whole leather. okay.

Now I take mi because I was told that IT would be helpful. At first of all, IT doesn't make me sleepy like some of the other forms of magism which or act as a mild sensitive for me um they do tap into the gap gic pathway neurotransmitter folks that in general brought sweeping realization here now somewhat of a of a sensitive quality which is why I take mag museum three and eight and or because licit before sleep thirty sixty minutes before so they definitely enhances my transition time to sleep um and the depth of sleep no question. In my my experience there's some data that three and eight can be can be narrow tecture, although those are still those studies are still ongoing and getting a sense that maybe you a little more skeptical.

I yeah I know I I i've seen the studies with the three and eight. I I think like looking at the actual data from the the one clinical study. Um there wasn't statistical significance until all three of the pieces of. Pulled together but that really could just be because their .

samples ze was too small right ah i'm thinking that that pair with their some words yeah that was on lose work on with so in that is getting of inside ball science that the quality of the labs matters spoke and that's something that's not accessible to people outside of fields and know IT goes on lue and some of the other folks at that time at MIT, I think very highly of their work.

And so the animal studies are indeed just animal studies that was pretty impressed by what they did in the studies, is very pioneering thing when you think about this being done ten, twelve, fifteen years ago. And then, yes, we need more human clinical data. But I for me, I figure that, that given the safety profile, mac three and eight even that that helps me sleep Better and sleeping Better is just Better for everything um Frankly, that's why I take IT in this glaciation and three nates seem to be somewhat interchangeable.

But there's I don't know any reports that big license can be neuroprotective. But mallie, I take you in the daytime. I for me again, this is subjective. IT has a tangible effect and improving the recovery time from exercise. So I don't know that i've been sore from a workout since to started taking mei, and I used to get very sore from even kind of trivial workout. So I don't know what's going on there, but I keep .

taking IT mali again. The short chain for acid and um I mean you when you do have a when you do intense extra exercise you released under from your gut, I am just going back to the interesting work because the male being the short chain, pretty acid. And mark chicken showing this is on animal research, by the way, but I mean, I was like feeding these animals malley. I mean really protected the got into toxic east and IT affected net bolic room and all sorts of things. I think my melis awesome, and I always try to eat Green apples are really high in malaga, and touch cheries 2 cheries really high IT as well。

But I was really .

interested in the magazine three and aid stuff. I take a supplement called magnesium by moon juice and it's like a little powder um it's got a little bit among fruit, but IT takes good. So I I do IT a little bit before bad time as well.

Probably several more hours though, because I don't want to drink ton and tensions blues if I go to bed. And IT has magnesium three and a and a variety of other versions of magnesium and IT as well. And I really like IT, but I thought the magnesium three staff was super interesting.

Would love to see more clinical data as well, but I think he wants we get IT. It'll probably be like, oh yeah, it's getting into the brain and its awesome. So know why wait, right?

I know along those lines, I once put out a post that said, I feel like there are a number of during categories of health, health information consumers online and understanding which one you're in for which topic can alleviate a lot of the train stress of finding the information that there are some people that are perfectly comfortable with data from a male studies, like if it's done in my great, i'll try IT other people say, no IT has to be done in humans da lip simple control studies, you know, randomize clinically trials.

Uh, IT said that other people are just say, you know, I don't even care about any of that, just tell me what you do and then other viewers said, you know, I want you to care what you do, just tell me what to do. And then there's this other category, which are, if it's in pill form or powder form and we'll take IT. And so I think a lot of the battles of people picking apart people's post, some things have to do with that, that people don't realize that people are showing up to the table in one or some combination of those stances.

We know people that will try anything and we know people that won't take anything. So um the idea here is to create a an array of possibilities for people um and I think the animal data are very impressive. We should have .

you back on I take IT with the hope of because I feel like the end data is very promising. And so i'm like IT probably .

is so why not well and obviously you're doing things right. Um so cold and heat converge on some common pathways related to what you called intermitted chAllenge, which I love. I I think if uh in intermet fasting cold heat exercise, I mean maybe you an internal sleep deprivation.

I keep waiting for the intimate and sleep deprivation movement. I will say I pull a few all nighter res per year, just work demands and procrastination and deadlines. And i'm a and the worst combination of academic as i'm both a procrastinator and a perfectionist.

So you end up pulling some all nightless. The sleep I get the next night is pretty amazing. And I say it's the sleep of god.

But I don't recommend anyone you sleep deprivation for that. But I could imagine that we also evolved having some sleepless nights. So this idea of the intermit and chAllenge is, is, is a really attractive one.

And I want to make sure that we credit .

you with the phrase intermit .

and chAllenges dit dr.

m. publish. Okay, great.

Will make. Just like doctor David and clare, I love the zeno horne's he was in like one of his publications to so many years ago.

I just love this brilliant, brilliant terms. And you know I mean it's a good school I guess of course it's a good school. Um we will credit the appropriate people. Thank you for that clarification. So um you've talked a lot about the use of deliberate, what I call deliberate cold exposure only to distinguish from cold that you might just be accidentally exposed to. But it's obvious when we say cold exposure, there are some amazing data on cold a the other day I saw opposed from you and if you've include this in talks before, I did not know this until I learned IT from you. So credit to you that even twenty seconds of emerge in, I think, was four degree.

degree.

forty nine degree of ferret. eight. Okay, I was translating the about forty nine deg. Farenheit water. So cold water can lead to long lasting increases in epinephrine ourn's, and I have to resume other neuro neuromodulation neurochemicals as well. Um what are some cold protocols that you find particularly interesting or attractive from the standpoint of, I want pick your favorite metabolic neuro slash mood effects, Brown fat stimulation, which of course we ve back to metabolic? We could do an entire episode all about koba what i'd love to know, what sort of activity or stimulus do you think is a reasonable and particularly poin one to use in terms of cold?

So today I did three minutes at forty nine degrees fair and high. I have a cold tub .

to getting up to your neck.

Well, I try keep floating up and so i'm like, it's like really hard. I'm so the like I would say like OK, maybe most of my shoulder, I mean, really i'm floating up. I was telling, I was telling my husband like this.

there's too much water. And here for me, I T and there is IT .

like ad that is salt there. I know he takes care of. It's the plunge. Yeah, they been, by the way, the podcasting .

or I am sponsored by plunge. They did give me one that thing is fantastic also because IT circulates the water which make sure that you break up the thermal aye and it's even .

colder is even called IT IT socks anyways um so look I i'll i'll give i'll give IT. I'll be honest here. I wish I did more cold than I do.

I do cold when i'm gonna on a podcast. I definitely do cold when i'm going to do podcast when i'm going to get a talk and when i'm anxious. I need to make IT more virtual.

Al, I love doing this. Hate the cold. I hate IT. Unless this summer time, it's a lot is year for me to get in the cold in the sumer time. But what I do love about the cold is how I feel after and um I feel less anxious, I feel good.

I feel more focus, which is why I usually do IT before but any type of public speaking or just when i'm just anxious um i've ve just get in there and so um the twenty seconds at forty nine degrees, I think he was forty nine to be fair, high was really a good number because time and temperature due at time or duration ation. I guess that would be a Better word and temperature do matter um but but you know you can you can do twenty seconds at a colder temperature, which is I prefer, or you can do a minute or longer at a warming temperature. I think there was another study showing fifty nine degrees far in high at one hour was like two three fall. But who wanted to .

one hour with that study? I I love so this is really revealed just how absolutely nerdy I am, and maybe why sometimes, and relationships in my life will chAllenge. I love reading the method sections of papers. So, you know, people can come at me with a number of things about papers. And I might miss something.

Surely I miss certain things like anybody is, but the methods, I sort of relishing reading the methods and that papers really interesting because they had people sit in long chairs, basically in swimming polls, so for an hour. And IT wasn't IT was chilly. IT wasn't super cold.

I mean, sixties, not it's not warm but it's not ice cold, obviously, but an hour is ridiculous at some level, but the increases in dopamine were massive and lasted hours. So it's it's really so the mood enhancing effects that your report are, they are not you're not imagining that those are almost certainly Young. The consequence of having slowly elevating but significantly elected doping that goes on for hours.

That's almost a dream like profile for doping because most everything else, like an ada, all a ridal in a cup of coffee and and a workout during or pre workout drink or something, is going to give you a big Spike in the journal in and dopamine and a big crash. And somehow IT creates this really nice control profile. So I whatever you there is very nicely supported by the data.

Well, I I need to get I need to get doing IT more. I i've had A A couple of scary experiences going .

from hot to cold.

Blood pressure changes, I think, where I basically went straight from a really hot to, cuz I was in there for like thirty minutes and I was doing.

he OK yeah .

hundred and four degrees far in .

height to and .

then I am for thirty minutes and then I went straight into at the time IT was our pool. I was in like feb way. I was a winter time and he was um fifty IT was in the fifties.

He was called. Um and and I was in there and I was like listening to Simon gar functional. I was like trying to stay in a long time.

I get to my coal and I trying to press down because you like goes in there for lake. He'll stay in there for like fifteen minutes but I started to feel really blinky like low blood pressure something. And I got scared by guy out.

And then I couldn't stand like I had vertigo or something and I was so scared, was so scared. Um and so and i've had a couple of times too were just going straight from the sona to IT to the cold plunge um where i'm starting to feel my oh I feel a little blood pressure change or something and that makes sense. The sa is causing baza dio lation and the cold plunge is cold exposures causing vaio construction, and is like a very know, just shocked my system.

And so now I wait like, I wait like a few minutes before going in. But I do need to kind of like make IT more the cold, more routine, because I talk all about the science and primarily with all the science and the north and fan or nora journal know it's affecting brain and mood and and you know way more about that than I do. I know I feel and I know know it's a neurotransmitter. You know, IT IT is release at least in rats y've shown, or was at my, I think I might have been rats, but multiple city showing. And that is released from the cold .

in the brain and humans as well. So so in that study that the we can build a link to this publishing two thousand european journal physiology um that big dopa mean crease they also looked up in .

african corzo is really very hard to measure .

oping directly on the brain we're doing microtv is no unfortunately unfortunately, their schools were intact. Fortunately for them, unfortunately for the research of me, their skills were in tax. They couldn't measure directly in the brain.

But um obviously that there's a coral t there. It's it's a very real effect I think that um but the advantage of not doing IT too often is that you're not cold adapted. Now it's very hard for anyone to get truly cold.

Some people start to look forward to the cold. And what I think they're looking forward to is the feeling afterward that dopamine rush. But if you get cold adapted, then IT certainly baLance the sum of the effect.

But I want to to be cold adapted because that means I have more medica in my anopheles tissue and perhaps even muscle like that's been shown.

Maybe this is a good opportunity to. So call the u cp. one.

If you could educate us on ucp one. I find this really. And I learned about .

IT from you so yeah well so no. And f an actually released in the does act of hormone base of constructions one thing that does but IT also regulates a variety of molecular functions that have to do with adaption to code one happen happening to be um you know shivering is a very inefficient way to produce heat, which is what your bodies trying to do when it's exposed to call and your muscles are basically contracting and and um and producing heat from that, but that's just not very efficient so uh the the more eloquent way to do IT or elegant I guess way to do IT is you know to basically have your might contra produced tons and tons of heat so um the way that does this is by activating a dream called ucp one on coupling protein one nor a an edge is upstream without activating IT so um that what that does is essentially so mi contro are these little organising side of yourselves that are responsible for producing energy usually that's in the form of at deny try for state atp and that what let's everything function inside your body from your neurotransmitters to your heart beating such a um however um you can uncouple your medical ria basically your medical ria. Um they're like a little battery.

So they have well, they have a double membership, first of all, their structure but they have a negative charge on the inside and they have a positive charge on the inner membrane. So in between the outer membrane and inside the inside part, the neon like a neuron. yeah.

So I guess it's it's like a neuron. It's like a battery, negative and positive. Well, basically you can uncouple that that charge.

And so that positive charge, protocol art leaking out of the my country, I and you might to counter freak out. This is called uncoupling IT. And they start to its maximum respiration as we call IT. They try to make as much energy they like.

I got to get those that that back that gradient electro chemical gradient and so they just go insane and they in this case it's uncoupled energy to the energy they are making is actually heat, not ATP um but heat is but you're essentially burning substrates. So who cares? You're burning, you're burning luck loves, you're burning the lips, you know you're you're basically burning things and making heat.

And so that's what uncoupling and does, and that is a much more efficient way of producing heat than shivering. So as you become more adapted um maybe the longer duration that you you stayed in the cold or more times you've done IT, you'll no longer shiver anymore. You will start to then just do this uncoupling type of thermo genesis as it's called.

And another type of adaptation that occurs is you actually produce more medica in your atopic SE tissue and um and that actually happens also regulated by norf and f or north a journey through a protein called pgc one fa. And what that protein does is that makes more medica in your atop st cell. So poor adaptation st cell, you're getting more ma country a it's a beautiful way to basically make more heat when you it's one of those things where it's like your body's going, okay, i'm going to be exposed this cold next time.

How can I make sure I don't die? Oh, I can have more medica and i'm going to make more heat and so you're making more medica in your anopheles issue and and this is often referred to us like the Browning of fat. And the reason for that is because if you look under a microscope at a lipid drop, basically a fat cell, uh, not a little to drop IT out of the site um you'll find that IT looks darker because there's more my country in there so it's refer to as Browning fat and so I don't want to get into the whole beige fat Brown you know there's this whole i'm sure .

you've had experts on that talk all about that. I think a wife at based around fat and basis .

me can be converted into characterise tics essentially and so um so you can activate vade fat so that it's thermogenesis the sense that it's um burning glucose and oral regino fatty acids and and producing heat so um so the more you expose yourself to cold, the more you can Brown your fat so to speak and and therefore um you can tolerate the cold for longer periods which people do notice and you can um then have the thermogenesis alias of having more Brown antipodes issue or being activated base that of this issue which is you you'll get a lot of nails out there saying Brown fat doesn't regulate metabolite ova the reality is there's like thousands of researchers trying to build pill up Brown fat and film gent t like you're trying to make IT appeal because IT does affect metabolism um no it's not. The only thing is certainly if you obese and trying to lose a weight, you're not going to like do that just by doing called exposure. You need to do dirty and exercise changes as you know, paramenters but IT does IT does affect metabolism and um you know this this has been shown in human studies so a IT is uh interesting another it's another possible mechanism for affecting meta abolish m and that's an antipodes tissue but you also make more medical and muscle tissue and this is regulated not via nor an element but IT is still P G U an offer a interestingly um not like not that anyone else really cares about me.

Maybe you do eating up so so pgc one alpha .

um is is respond, is response in your penetrant atop s tissue to make more media but in in muscle tissue it's unclear what the regulator is called exposure does IT so this is this was shown um at least in a couple of studies i've seen where um like people that were exercising, I believe maybe made of an men only.

They were exercising that some of training and then did cold water immersion something like fifty degrees very in height, fifteen minutes pgc and ala which is a biomarker for meteoroid biogenesis, which is the generation of new medica by the way, that's awesome. You want more medical in your muscle is associated with improved muscle mass, improved in dance. I mean, my country are essentially, you know that making energy yourselves and we we don't make more madani. And Normally, like you have certain imports, a high intensity interval exercise can do IT and .

I should make more of a country.

Yes yeah I have been shown in people and I .

training or just high to xi interval train.

I haven't seen weight training. I've seen IT an in high intensity interval in ing and dance training. Um but that doesn't mean that IT hasn't been shown, just haven't seen IT or that .

IT hasn't been looking. I'm always looking for reasons to finally do more hit type high intensity interval training work. I do way training and I do low .

intensity cardio. There was a briled study by um at the time he was a postdoc, Matthew Robinson, and um he's now gone on to start his own lab at the university of organ health science center and and he did a study where both Young and older people were they had this whole high intensity protocol which I can't member what IT was but their protocol for x amount of time I am sure was at least a month um they then measured biomarkers of ma control biogenesis in their muscle tissue and a the the amount of medical ral biogenesis es and old people specifically IT happened in both Young and old from the heat from the high intensity interview training was, I mean, IT was like enormous and at least fifty percent I think so I think was just like, wow and so like, why would you want that? Well, you know my Andrea, you you don't make cells are turning over.

You make new cells. You replace old ones where you're micra. You don't really do that for the most part you can might control biogenesis is does happen but you have to stimulate IT to happen.

And um the way you're my like what happens with your medical ter is they essentially are bobbing around inside yourselves and then they they fuse with other medical change, all their content, micro dina and physical apart and that's how they kind of. Stay Young ish but like as you age, you you keep doing that with the same pool of my dangerous and you're onna get a bunch of old my anger mixing old stuff together, right? So why wouldn't you wanna like bring up new, healthy, Young my a country into that pool, right? So in my mind, when I hear my a contro biogenic, i'm like aging, like that's the first thing I think of. So anyways, cold exposure does that many other things as well.

So you know and please thank you for offering to you know somehow filter that the level detail but I assure that listeners at this podcast are are familiar with getting um drinking from the fire house of mechanism and that was really helpful. And again, this is just one example of maybe four five other things that you've said, at least that you're going to inspire me to change my behavior.

I am going to start doing some high intensity interval training. Doctor andy galen was on this podcast recently, and he told me that that the subtle zone, two cardio and the wait trainings great, but that I really should be doing some max heart rate tek per week, going into max hearts rate for ninety seconds and resting and repeating that maybe even mile repeats. I'm just curious, as a brief side, before we talk about heat, what what sort of cardiff asked lar, other types of training do you do? Do you do hit? Imagine you are doing high intensity and rival training. If you could just give us a sense of the control of your your week as IT relates to exercise and because even very gracious and sharing some of what you do for supplements and food, what about exercise?

So I IT all depends on my week, of course, what i've got going on with my son and and my work schedule. But I typically I do a lot of high intensity interval tob us on a stationary cycle. I use palatine because um I just like that and structure er there like tell me what to do and me competing with everyone else somebody you know so .

revealing something about your psychology learned about. So this podcast is actually just a decoy for for psychological assessment of guess not getting but so now we know you're competitive. good. That explains a lot of how you got through graduate school and do what you do. So you're getting on the python. And what does that look like for someone who is not familiar with palon? I know what they are, but i've never been on one you are peddling against the instructor for how many seconds.

So um there's a bunch of people that are online and they're doing the class with you at the same time or have all time doing as you can. You can kind of talk along what you want and like you can try to compete against.

So I really compete OK.

And the instructions is just there to like whip like like you know make you there's a part of the brilliance with pallet on is like I used to do rush was called rush cycle and I used to go and it's basically you go in and group group cycle and have an instructor there and you do all this time tencent trading stuff.

And I love that because there was a competitive aspect to IT that had me working harder than I would work if I was just me in the room like without an instructor or anyone there and I was just like i'm at a gm, any gym and i'm just on a stationary y cycle listening no pod guests doing something, which is fine if that's your group, right, but there is something about that group setting that kind of make hold you accountable too right and and the pelton made IT somehow virtual IT was amazing um and I remember being back at rush ycl this is before pandemic and people talking about palatine in my class and I like I was ridiculous. Why would I do that? Like, that's never going to work.

I needed to like, be here and and then the pendel C I and I was like all over the and IT works for me really well. So I tend to do that at least three times a week. Um sometimes I do IT more like and I do a ten minute, just ten, uh, because it's efficient and I push my ask, I push myself really hard.

twenty .

seconds on, ten seconds off .

and it's ten minutes.

And there's a lot of resistance in the poll. See you basically there's a part where you, I always do resistance. I like the power. I do the power for there's a part where you sitting, cycling, you trying to go really fast, but I was crank through resistance up. I always go above what they give me.

And then and then there is a part where you're standing and you really cracked the resistance at which I really do like you feel in your glue exactly. And so they like break IT up. And most of time you'll like those two two parts. And I love the efficiency of IT. Um you you just you get IT done and people sometimes here we go ten minutes or really you think you work and like look like you mac you do max you to vote up for ten minutes and like it's it's .

intense yeah most people can't sprint for the for the gate of the airplane. They're about to miss Carrying a backpack. So if you think about if I think about that and then I i've just described myself sprinting through the airport and going, I andy gale, and I got my ninety second banks art writing for you Carrying this thing, but twenty seconds on, ten seconds of repeating that over and over for minutes. So by time you're down, you're coat.

And then I because i'm competitive during the recovery that they give you at the minute, at the end, i'm pushing IT max, the number.

great. So three times a week, yeah.

three times a week. And then I always have my son on pretty preheating up, takes about hour and a half, and I get IT to about one eighty nine to is fair in height, I hope, right in the song after my my my paton so .

the elevated heart rate continues .

is an I literally down a bunch of water and then I get in and and then I like either um read a science paper, prepare for presentation or a podcast or I hash over things on my mind. And it's interesting because something about getting in the sona, I think the stress, the heat stress of IT I used. So I start during the sona two thousand nine in graduate school.

and I really adapter.

I started doing IT every day. I live across this to. I live in the studio apartment with down, we have the like small studio part.

The small apartment can ever magine and is across the street from A Y M, C, A. Because I was poor and right? Very poor, very poor. I mean, so.

you know, I know, I know I lived in my .

lab wo but then again.

I lived in my lab as a post dog and as I admit, I lived in my lab with my bulldog as a faculty member for other reasons. I get IT when your graduate student you're .

poor um and so I used to I used to go to the the sona before going into the lab and um I and I started noticing that I was all of unable to handle stress Better like the stress of my six month setback because of a failed experiment which is crushing on top of the pressure from your advise, my adviser and my own pressure. I am very competitive with myself and I put a lot pressure myself. So I was having a hard time.

I mean, I was very stressed out and graduate school in the sa started to really noticeably affect my anxiety and my ability to hand the stress. And I was like, what is going on here? So I started looking into the literature um and you know started getting interested in effect on the brain and in fact that the time I had a friend who was not actually experimentally but theoretically looking into the the opioid system and basically so when you get in the sona um you released a lot of endorphins.

Endorphins are the feel good home, feel good oios um that you make you feel good. But you also release something called dine morphin. And dine orphant is an endogenous opioid that binds to a receptor called the paper opiate receptor, which dine orphant is responsible for. That disworship feeling when you're in the song on your heart and when you're running, doing exercise and you're like you feel uncomfortable. Um well, I think that time more films taking up think I think .

I mean that the evidence in alcohol L I S S that some of the symptoms of which all that the experience are related to dine morphin and dyn orphant is known to negatively impact the document recept system so basically it's the feel like garbage pathway.

right? You feel like garbage and so you think um that that would not be good. But this is where my my friend that comes in.

He he was looking at the effects of like treating morphine or her own addiction and you know people that are using these drugs, they basically the endorphins, or the more morphine or you heroin, they bind her receptor and the brain called the new abeid receptor. And as as they they take these drugs that me up, your receptor becomes down regulated. And so you need more and more of the drug to feel as good as you did, right? Well, endorphins also bind to that receptor.

And he was looking into some of the other other drugs that are like the a call that IT defines to the copy o ope, repetto or IT also makes you kind of feel uncomfortable anyways um he had put some studies in front of me that showed basically finding of the either die morphin or you know whatever lie on to the capital opposite receptor, basically sensitized the new opi receptor to the feel good endorphins and also changes I think IT also uh up regulated or something so basically there's a lasting effect of feeling good to the endorphins that you released later from hugging someone or a joke laughing out of whatever um you feel IT for longer right and so um anyways this is a with the song with respected the song at a big sort of hypotheses of mine. I did kind of publish that part of uh mahar thesis in A A review article but I do I would do wish more people would can look into that. That would be amazing um but but what I was getting out I think was um I would use I would use the sona to memory things. This is way back in the day I still do IT and and I want to to talk you about this because of your your neuroscientists that there is something about being in the sona and like and I think I don't know that has to do with the like the stress response, like when you when you have an emotional trigger, like you remember things Better, right?

And there is A. Clear and known explanation for mechanism for this.

So in the sana, I mean, you also release nor of an ean just like you do in the coal. There's a lot of overlap. You mean that is a stressful, but I like use IT to remember things like i'm going through something. I want to go through a presentation or a talk or a podcast, whatever, and I go in that sona. And I mean, you should try IT like if you haven't already.

I don't know you. I have a song I called lunch now, and I haven't tried prepared. I read books in the sona in the evening. It's a, it's the time I insist on having my phone out of there because I initially, because I thought I cook the phone, but also just to get some separation from the phone and screens. The evening I read books, the only child sometimes you're dripping sweat under the books sand willing to forgo a few pages of a book.

Um the um the idea that being in the semi stressful environment would aid in the learning and retention of information is is really well substantiated by. This is beautiful work by guy James biga. I don't know his labs still active, but he was you see a vine for a while.

And then I think that you see of arizona as well. They're a great memory group at both places, very strong and learning and memory both places. And he was the one that really defined this kind of inverted u shaped function for the relationship between a journal and and memory.

Basically, if you're too relaxed, not stressed enough, you're not not going to remember any information at peak levels of stress. You actually are a memory machine, at least within the context of whatever is you're trying to learn. So very well, what you're describing is very well matches with that.

And then, of course, the tape is off as you really increase the journey to the point where people are starting to lose automatic ic function, where they are just were their panicking basically, but obviously, you're keeping IT enriched. The other thing that I would like to ask you about is in the song, of course, there's violates ation and confusion of blood to the brain is a wonderful way to enhances cognition. There's even some really nice data showing that during in halls as opposed to x sales, people are Better at learning information, believe, are not during the inhale you're taking in and absorbing and remembering more than during x sales.

And these are beautiful, says done in humans, of course. So I can imagine that VISA dillaway getting more profusion of blood to the brain, plus a little bit of stress or may be a lot of stress from the up and F N um and yet. And then of course, there is going to be the I don't want to call a placebo, but there is going to be the the context, the condition place context of IT.

Like if we if we had a good experience remembering something in the sona, once we tended the positive association effect of that location is real, just like if people go to a new city and they get robed, like if you since and that i'm never been a since that we get robbin since inside your person gets taken in your while gets taken, you kind of hate since an adi as a tourist. But that could happen in any number of different cities, right? The opposite is also true.

So if if something good happens, something, i'm imagine that to the combination ation of those effects. But i'll start to be very hard to to do this in the cold. I feel like the cold is a very poor address. I think IT .

takes you too far down that curve song or but afterward .

you're very efficient.

clean after I am and you you with respect to the sona, the visit olam does occur. So there's a lot of overlap between moderate intensity arabic c exercise and he stressed. And as you can imagine, when you're exercise and you're elevating your core body temperature, you are you're sweating.

And when you're actually in the sa, blood does get redistributed to the skin facilities wedding. But much like exercise, blood flow in general is improved to the brain, to the muscles everywhere. So know, I think generally speaking, that and you know, there's studies showing that sona use is associated with a much lower risk of dimensions. All schema disease, like people know, people that use IT four to seven times a week have greater than sixty percent reduction in dementia.

And all sam, as I was, I didn't want to cut off, said people who use IT apart, maybe tell again, people use IT four to seven times per week.

have they have a greater than sixty percent reduction in dementia risk and all cma tisei risk compared to people that use IT only one time a week um people that use IT two to three times a week have something like a twenty a little greater than twenty percent reduction in is is a dose dependent effect on dementia risk and author disease risk um IT also has a profound like there there's a big link between the cardiovascular system and the brain.

Obviously blood flow a big one, right? You like you need to get blood to your brain. Um but cardiovascular mortality, so mortality from cardiovascular disease if people use or actually this was man, if men uses on a four to seven times a week, it's a fifty percent production in cardiologists related mortality compared to one time a week.

Again, dose dependent manner, two to three times a week is something like twenty four percent lower. A cup, death room, cardio basic disease. There's also lower. You know sudden cardiac death is like a heart attack.

It's like sixty something greater than sixty percent lower if if men use IT four to seven times a week versus once again, I those dependent thing and they think that super found there also to me when, again, looking at the methods, when I look at the data. And this is all work from doctor yari linin. He's in the university of eastern finland and just one of the the world experts on sa.

Use, especially with respect to a cardigan, cute health, what some of his data has also shown is that um if you look at the duration, the time spent in the sauna, so a lot of the so I mentioned the temperature I do is about, I do like one eighty nine degrees far and height. Typically I go in there, i'm pretty he adapted. And so the more you do either more you do the sa or any sort of heat stress, whether it's a hot topper, jq z um you you become adapted, you're basically start to sweat at a lower core body temperature to cool yourself down.

All these sort of physical ological changes start to happen earlier. And so um I stay in for like thirty minutes. I mean so I say no long time, that's a lot. You have to listen your body.

Most of the studies that I just talked about where from um the the duration, the time but in the sun, and when I said fifty percent reduction in cardiovascular related death, what was shown was that men that were in the sana for only eleven minutes, even if they used at four to seven times a week, that reduction was only like eight percent set of fifty IT had to be greater than forty minutes so like twenty minutes is this week's but at about one seventy four degrees far in height um and so and most most of designers and filled by the way, the humid to they they they put hot water, hot t they put water on hot rocks to create steam. And so it's so usually between ten and twenty percent humidity in the finish. Shana, so those those studies were, I would say most of time you're going to find that the humidity is also elevated.

But to me, the the dose dependent nature of the and the duration knowing, like you know, to me that's a very strong data that this is more causal than some know coral everything because that's always the problem with observational studies, including these, which they corrected for a whole host of factors like cholesterol. You know, exercise is just everything, do everything of the sun, I mean, they correct for those. And on top of that, you have the dose dependent nature of the duration, the time spent in this sa and the frequency.

So to me it's like some is going on here. Plus there's been studies intervention studies is where it's like, you know comparing directly had to had moderate intensity rebec exercise on the stationary cycle to twenty minutes in a sana. They are physiological.

The same things happen. So heart rate elevate while you're doing the activity. Blood pressure increases while you're doing the activity. But after heart rate decreases, as resting heart rate decreases below baseline, blood pressure is improved. So IT decreases below baseline.

This is happening the same in motor intensity cycling verses on a, so you can this song up like this heat stressed or something about IT that really mimics this modern intensity arabic exercise which is really great for people that can't go for a run that can't even get on a bike. Um so you know disabled people, granted there are some safety and concerns or they're pretty mild, but they do exist. Uh you know so people that have a recent heart attack or have some rare kind of heart disease or problem drinking alcohol never do that.

Elderly people, low, prompt, low, low blood pressure, always talk to physician before doing this on IT is IT is stressful pregnant pregnant women, oh yeah I definitely avoided as on as when I was pregnant. But um IT is I think is very relevant for disabled people and also people like that are sedentary of in sedentary most they are like like my mother, i've been able to get her in the sana because she's not I mean, I did get her on the pillow on once, but it's really much easier. SHE feels like it's a spot treatment and and it's like SHE can listen to her music in there.

And like I care about her health, but she's she's mostly been a sedentary person and so um I find that much easier to convince ce her to get in the sona. Then you get on paton. Ideally you do both. The question would be, well, I exercise, I run. I do my high intensity, unable training.

Why do I need to get the sona and and the reality is is um and so I published all this and and I review in the experimental dental logy last year, I guess really late last year and um basically cardio respiratory fitness, which is a marker of it's a marker of health car, you know carty respiratory fitness ness is improved in people that do exercise and sona compared to exercise alone or sona alone. So for those healthy fit people out there already exercising, there is a synergistic effect by also adding a SONY into to me that's great. And um there's so many beneficial things happening a with the with the heat stress in addition to like myself icing orbic exercise.

There's the heat shocked proteins that we talked about earlier. And those a kind of brings me back to my early days of science when I was at the sulk institute ah for bilateral tidying research on little nematode worms that um we are someone else injected. Emily beta forty two, the peptide, the forty two, a menu s peptide that is involved in amalwin plax found in the brain core di with all armer disease and other you know brain disorders.

We injected those into the muscle tissue of worms and basically these worms become paralyzed with age because the the aggregate greg ted proteins um these proteins aggregate um well heat shocked proteins. One of the many things they do is they basically make sure the proteins inside of yourselves maintain their property three dimensional structure and are folded right. And so they don't they're not prone to aggregating and foreign places in your arteries and also in the brain.

And there's back to my my, my warm studies I was doing, I I would elevate hate shock proteins in these worms. And I would totally correct the problem where the they would no longer become paralyze. You'd move around their Young.

So um many animal cities have been done looking at our hammer disease and you know like a human, like all emergency s in a road and and he shocked proteins protecting from IT you, so um he shocked proteins are roblez ly activated in humans and this has been shown to um even or you know fifty percent higher over baseline levels after just thirty minutes at one sixty three degrees for and high and sa so um and they stay activated at least in rodents for you know forty eight hours at least um so you know having his teach hot proteins around making sure that they're properly taking care about our proteins that are not aggregating in our brains and in our in our plex could be another potential way that song is protecting from alzheimer disease and other cardiovascular health as well as longevity. So um you know there there's people that have snips in he shocked protein factor seventy, that if they have one of them, so they got one from their parents, but they have more active he shocked protein seventy. They live on average one year longer than people.

I don't have that snip and if they have two versions, they've got one from their mom and one from their dad. They live, on average, two years larger than people that don't have that snips. So it's also when associated human longevity as well as in lower organisms.

So you can heat shock a warm or a fly and they live fifteen percent longer. This is that worked on my gorden law at the buck institute years and years ago. Um so anyways, I guess what I was getting that was um the heat shock proteins are are part of that stressed response pathway that we talked about earlier.

And you know they're also activated by a cold as well. Cold truckers activate hip proteins now as robust so far from act activates them again as one of the reasons I think we should get all of these things because there are more robust inputs, there are input activating mechanisms are more robust for no different ones. So there is cross talk.

There is I mean, I guess I be more accurate to say there's overlap. You know, it's also like you wants to get the most robust from all of them, right? I do so I mean that's why I want to do the sauna and exercise and at myself, you know my brothers proud and and all that .

stuff right? It's super interesting at a couple couple of questions came up for me. Um one is you mention these snips, these nuclear tide repeats, basically genes that some people have more or less of than others that can predict longevity in some sense. Is that the foxo three pathway that's .

one that can yeah I mean, foxo three is in fact, if you go back to the warm studies I was talking about, that was like one of the first things, when you see IT with your own eyes, you can take these worms that um you basically decrease their insulin in singling pathway in their igf one. Worms have uh water called homologous genes, so they have a lot of similarities to humans.

They have an insulin like receptor, they have an I G F one like percept and they make something like fox, so three which we have. And um basically if you if you decreased at insulin signal pathway, the fox three is always active in those worms and they they live like a hundred percent longer and and not only do they live longer, I mean, they are like a very Young worm. I mean, they are like, you look at this thing and you're like, this looks like the warm that was just born like hours ago.

What's going on this thinks at the end of his life now as as a side note, the thing that always got me on this was by the way, this was discovered by scientia canyon and um this was like back in the nineties and honestly, i'm not sure that anything has been as exciting in the warm world since then. But I thought, I mean, IT was a really big finding. Um the only the only cabyle there is that the worms go through this dower. It's called a dower stage when this happens, when you decrease their instant singling and stuff. And they like go into this, like metals, like stasis, like you're not eating as much, or moveing and and so so OK where they live one hundred percent longer, but like they go into this weird state.

They know people like that, some in the longevity community, they know who they are. But they'll get the last left because i'll be dead welfare, but dead, and they'll y'll still be going, uh, so in terms of the the many data on sa, and I also just want to acknowledge these finish groups that did this work is really pioneering, right?

When you think twenty years ago, along before social media, any of this and there there, up there, I should say measuring court is all and growth hormone and all this stuff in in people getting in sona, very, very interesting. So twenty minutes seems like the threshold at hundred and seventy dues fare and height more times per week seems to be Better than fewer in terms of all cause mortality, cardiovascular. Sk, going to IT.

What I just learned from would be a good, I think.

minimum effect of dose four times. We and you combine IT with the cold. I've also seen a protocol where is a very extreme protocol.

I don't recommend this to people write off about where they had sub human subjects. Get in the sona for thirty minutes. Get out for five thirty minutes.

Get out for five thirty minutes for a total of two hours of sure. But that was what LED to these massive sixteen four increases in growth hormone actually have. So and they had to do IT very seldom.

So that sounds like these protocols you're describing, twenty minutes done four times per week, far more reasonable for most people to access. But I know people are probably desperate to know what if they don't have a sona you know san is kind of a unique item. So have a couple questions.

Can people use hot bads um with the appropriate warning of course, that um without getting into description of the the mechanics and the underline biog, it's pretty obvious um that the tests if they get too warm you you kill sperm. That's the reason why the texas are housed in a structure called the strode um that can move around so just to be you know we are biologists just talking about realities here um so if you're trying to conceive, children will keep your sperm healthy. Um guys should probably ly stay out of .

warm hot as for at least six months has been shown ths perm perm mortality goes down and sperm production goes down but that is completely pt like corrected um if they stay out of the song out for six months so so three six months later is back to Normal great.

That's a very useful information, i'm sure, to the number of people out there.

So there, if people don't have access to a sa and we get this about cold to you always say, what about cold showers? And I always say what the studies have mainly been done on emerge because it's hard to keep things controlled and cold showers, it's just doesn't make for a very good experiment because how you had a bigger person, the less of them is under the shower. And so IT doesn't make for a good experiment. So it's it's not as good as emersion. But with with heat, I could imagine that a hot bath, we work almost as well.

yeah. So there are spent some studies looking at, for example, activation of he shot proteins, also brain drive, or perfect fact, increases with heat stress and so on. The hot bath at around hundred and forty three sphere and high, which is simply what studies will use for temperature which is actually cooler than I I cracked my back. Heart is so hot you're .

very he adapted.

I'm very adapted. And um it's twenty minutes from the shoulder down. And that is like a very robust activation.

And he shock proteins and in print driver, perfect actor and he tried proteins are also protecting against muscle atrophy. So that's also haven't to do with the protein structure and the muscle tissue as well. This has been studies and animal animal data um as well as recent human data as well. I was local hypothermia, local heat treatment but essentially showed that IT protected I mean I was like there was a study where um they were looking at muscle diseases and IT was IT was something like the logo heat treatment prevented like almost forty percent over the muscle atrophy from this is so like and it's funny that I used to use this anna when I was injured and stuff I would go to sona because I I like I I didn't know at the time because I was graduate student but I knew like just from experiments that like you know like i'm not losing as much muscle I feel Better like I you know like at the time I I was reading all about the growth roman and stuff back then but um and I knew about he shut proteins and so I kind of knew um but that data wasn't around yet and so now we have the data and i've always like felt like I wasn't losing my muscle like I should have been when I was doing the song and I was doing IT literally seven days a week I was like hard core this is .

also during graduate school yeah now .

now i'm doing i'm doing the sona like a bare bare minimum. I do three but I tried to do four because of IT. All depends on my schedule. Um I also like to do long runs.

I really it's like long being like three my homes not like camiguin it's too wrong um but I really for me and we were talking about this earlier like off camera that. The runs for me are are for my brain, and i'd get this mind wandering effect where I daydream and I think about things. I work through problems, I get create up, I come up with ideas.

And this is all happening on the runs. And and so I I just I I miss my runs if I don't do them, and I miss IT because of the brain effects I get from IT. And when I exercise, it's funny because i'm a female and you think that i'd be exercising, stay fit and shaped and you care about my figure, about when I exercise.

Literally what i'm thinking about is my brain. And I like, this is the best LG longevity drug there is this. Is that right here around like you, you're always wondering, you're always wanting to know, want to do the best, like if you don't exercise your missing, that is central dose. And so that for me is motivation, the dobie seeking thing I am looking for, uh, admittedly I need uh, I do not do enough string throwing and I have to do IT to have to have to do like i'm just i'm so after the endurance in the hit and I I really need to add that in um because muscle mass is also extremely important for aging as well, you know so that's that's my that's my fault.

Well, that the brain effects are really interesting. I also run, I trying get one longer run for a week and a few other run. And I do IT without a phone.

I don't not listen to podcast. I occasionally will listen to music, but I really try not to. I also find that my mind solves problems. I feel like IT washes out the cobweb, so to speak, some of the most brilliant and prolific na scientists that I know who've had very long careers. Eric can del nobel prize when her colombia comes to mind for all this work on memory, used to swim a monday, and now I think swim half a mile day. But he's in his late nineties and he's still sharp, is incredible.

And his lab has has done somewhere showing that any load bearing exercise repeated so enduring work, unlike the palette or cycling that's really load bearing all the youth cycling really hard with the resistance, but causes the release of otdia calling from the bones, which acts in an underground way, sort of like a horror on, can actually travel to the hippo campus. And at least in these animal studies, induce the proliferation of neurons, growth of synapses, b DNF, a number of downstream things, which kind of make sense if we were to put IT just a evolutionary story on on this, know, a body that active can signal to the brain that the body still needs cognition. An, you know, an inactive body, in some ways, is depriving the brain of any signal about what the body is doing, right? This is obviously of making this up as as as conjecture.

But we know in ocean and various ocean animals that theyll swim around for some period of their life, and then theyll have A A completely stationary portion their life. And basically the brain degenerates. You don't need much of a nervous system if you're not moving.

So I think there's really something there and also just letting you the in mind drift. Um I love that you and I appreciate that you shared your protocols because I think right now we're in an interesting time in public health information history where people are just going getting bomb barred with cold is good. Heat is gold.

Cold is good, heat is good. Excuse me, I A spoke. There are all these micrometer trans and of course, micrometres rints are important to. And today you really enriched with the description of the underlying mechanisms and the logic behind them. But also, sharing what you do is really informative, because I think people need a jumping off place and obvious ly, they need to start some place and getting heated apted at at all takes time. But I really appreciate that you're willing to share your protocols and that you do the things that you that you teach and educate people about.

As a final question because I have have have to ask red lights ona or no red lights ona, i've been a little bit vocal about when I feeling that none of the red lights as i've ever been in got enough and IT was frustrating like I feel like it's neither here nor there. However, I do acknowledged that red light and look up the light therapies are now known to do a number of interesting things, with the nobel prize in one thousand nine hundred and eight for phototherapy, for loops. So, you know, it's not like a new thing, the idea that light and light could do things positive for our biology.

But do you have a red light in your sona? Do you think it's useful? And I mention this because this is the number one question I get about sona red light or no red light or some some intermediate .

answer um so I don't have an informed sona um but I do have like I have a sona that has light that makes red lie. But I don't think it's a red light that you're talking about OK not activating IT at a specific wavelength.

which is it's usually so that the range that seems to be helpful and I have I can I use a red light panel for other things um is six hundred and seventy nanometer out, two about seven hundred and twenty anoma ter. So IT looks like red and very dim light, dim red and bright red. And the ideas that red light can travel the bottle and an energy is such that they can travel down through the blazers of the dramas of the skin.

I you know I I don't have a red light in my son and um I don't know if it's essential or not. I don't think so based on all the cities i've talked about. I think that would be is you know that that the potential effect on my dkr a is interesting. I do think there's um a lack of really good solid evidence, you know humans, but I that not might only be because I just not studying enough and that's usually the case. So perhaps you know like there's the jew, right the jews, they have those pants .

red koor the two ones I O K O Z and you there. As far as I know, i'm fragance ant insult both companies at the same time, but i'd rather insult them both at the same time, then just compliment one or insult one. Both of them seem excEllent for getting the appropriate wavelength of red light. And I do not have .

a relationship, dear. Yeah, I personally think that the sana in IT of itself, it's about the heat stress. And typically the question I get is infra sa or regular sanna. And um there are some differences as well. Infrared zona maybe the infrared zona are the ones that have the red light that you're talking about.

Inference on is only get up to around one hundred and forty degrees fair and hi um so as I mentioned, the studies were about one seventy four years spin high and so um you really have to stay in a longer period of time. However, there have been some studies coming out of japan they they use in for radscha. IT is hope protocol.

It's called weight therapy and they they get people and inference zona and then they wrap in a towel and like they stay warm for x mouth. So it's like the whole process le, and that being like an hour long. Um but again, it's one hundred and forty two recent and high. So it's an infant za and it's been shown to improve a variety of like ordinary heart disease and conditions, heart related conditions like they're been some improvements. So um obviously, there's there's evidence that information on as can be beneficial for cardiff asia health.

I do i've used infrared zona many times that my my in laws they have a infrared ona and I have to crick that thing up for a while until it's maxed and then I have to sit in there for an hour at least I do sweat a lot and that's another thing we didn't talk about. You do sweat some heavy metals and some some um heavy metals are excluded permanently through sweat and others through your so so for example cadmium, there's like a hundred and twenty five fold increasing academic creation from sweat when you get the sona. Also LED is something like seventeen four expression higher.

Another one is illuminated about four full hier. So um infrared you do sweat a lot to. And that's because the main differences that you're heating your body up through thermal radiation versus the ambient hair air, but like an a standard, you know sana is a heater and the heater heater up the air and in that time you're hitting yourself up.

So that is a little bit of bit a different mechanism. I prefer regular sonus. Most the data out there from from the heat stress itself like that, your heart rates elevating when you're in there, you're feeling hot, you're getting that cardy best.

I mean, what you're feeling when you're in the hot sn and that for me takes a really long time in the information a get at the far end. But I do think the russian benefits from, and they are more affordable. There are less of a fire hazard. But again, hot bats are, I think, a good alternative modality for heat stress compared to like a regular sona.

great. That's a really helpful answer. I I was that I used the red light, but not in the song a and thank you for reminding us of that hundred and seventy four degree fair height threshold, those mainly used in all these studies.

So we covered a lot of of territory. But I just want to thank you again. I was extremely throw and extremely informative. I'd now have my notes are always look a little bit like um they were drawn out by a my cake monkey who has no knowledge of the english language.

But I can decide for this um to tell you that there are at least ten additions to my current protocols that i'm going to add and i'll have lots of questions. So I apologized in advance for that. But i'll behalf of the listeners and just directly from me, thank you so much for your time. I learned a ton my .

pleasure thinks we're having on IT was really awesome conversation.

So I enjoyed IT a lot.

Let's do IT again.

Totally great. Thank you for joining me for my discussion with doctor on a Patrick. I hope you founded as interesting and as actionable as I did once again.

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It's huberman lab on both instagram and twitter. There I teach science and science space tools, some of which overlap with the content of the human lap podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the huberman la podcast. Thank you once again for joining me for my discussion with doctor on a Patrick. And as always, thank you for your interest in science.