There's Power in Setting Boundaries
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I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. If you think about walkie-talkies, you know, when we're doing all those things and we're productive and we're churning out, that's you holding the button on your own walkie-talkie. But you can't hear what's coming from the other side unless you let go of the button. That's how they work. Your brain is the same way. If you're constantly on, if you're constantly scrolling, if you're constantly ordering, if you're constantly, you know, on that active part of your brain, you can't get that

that feeling from yourself of, oh, this is what I really want. Or, you know, that looking in the mirror or on that walk, that's lifting your finger off the button so that you can get that other side of it. I have an episode you're going to love today. And you're going to love it because we go over three very specific things that all relate, but that all have very actionable takeaways that are going to change your home today. So I love things like that. I have a feeling you will too.

So on the podcast today is Laura Mae Martin. And stay with me here, okay? Laura Mae Martin is a productivity expert. But if you're like me, you have a little cringe, oh, another thing about productivity and optimization. No, I swear, no, I wouldn't do that to you, okay? Because I know being a parent is so hard and exhausting. Laura Mae Martin wrote Uptime, which is a practical guide to personal productivity, but she defines it in a different way, and well-being. This is one of those conversations where you're like,

where I've started to connect things that I honestly hadn't connected in my own head before. And so I know this is going to have a big impact on my family home. And I feel like it's going to do the same thing for yours.

Hi, Laura. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. I mean, there are so many things I want to talk to you about. I'm just going to name some things. We'll see what we get to. Okay, I'm going to say one word. And for some reason, I always cringe, but I'm going to say it anyway. Productivity. But I swear for everyone listening, it's not like, oh, rolling eyes. Is this going to be about how to have? No. But I'm just going to put that word out there.

I want to talk about boundaries. I want to talk about saying no. And I want to talk about routines. And maybe you can just respond telling me, like, how do those things even come together in your mind? Or if you want to start by double clicking on any of them, let's start there.

So boundaries and saying no go really hand in hand and having strong boundaries up front limits the amount of time you have to have those say no conversations. And so I really stress to people that having those boundaries, defining them, defining them in a positive way. So not saying what you don't do is it.

saying what you do do. That's the first step. And sometimes just defining them for yourself can be the first step and then communicating them to others because boundaries are nothing if not communicated. And so that's the big start. And then there's always... Wait, can you pause for a second? Yes, of course. I'm going to quote you, Laura Mae Martin. Boundaries are nothing if they're not communicated. And the reason I want to double click on that is because I know so many parents...

who have a long list of boundaries in their head that are very clear to them. And as soon as you said it that way, I was like, my action was like, well, obviously, but it's actually so not obvious. So I actually think that's powerful just to give parents right now. Boundaries are nothing if they're not communicating. I mean, they're not nothing because they're really a sign of your values and your needs. And that's very real. But I think what you're saying, and tell me if this is right, is

for those values and needs which are real inside of you to actually be able to have an impact on your real life outside of you, the step to close that gap is communication. Exactly. Right. Coming up with them in your head is kind of that first step. But then to make them real and to make you and your family about them, they have to be communicated. Okay. This is just like a

Favorite topic of mine. I mean, I don't know. I feel like at some point I'm gonna have boundaries tattooed on my body in some like really prominent place. I don't know. Very communicated that way. Someone wants to like send me some design images. It might be like today's the day because I freaking love boundaries. I feel like it's the key to everything. And I didn't used to be good at boundaries. So it's not like I was like born with this. I feel like I work to be this boundary queen. Okay. But tell me this is accurate.

People who have a good sense of their boundaries inside but don't communicate. If I think about the amount of energy and time they spend on them thinking about it without communicating it, it makes sense why people feel so resentful and angry when someone kind of, quote, crosses their boundaries because in their own head and space, like this has been like

Five days, two years of thinking about something. And so it feels like such an affront. Do you think that's right? Yes, it's like who they are. And so then when somebody's questioning that, they feel like they're getting questioned. But if they had communicated it well in the first place, it never comes to that point, which, you know, you talked about saying no. And that continues to come up. The more that you're not communicating the boundaries, the more you have to say no. That's an amazing connection.

Boundaries are these kind of rules and guidelines and values. And for sure, when we set them, there will be people bouncing off of them and testing them, not because they're pernicious, just because they're trying to figure it out. But the more you set a boundary and the more you have a consistent response, the less often you're going to have to have those no's. Can we talk about family schedules for a second?

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So Laura, here's something I'd love you to speak about, maybe an example that comes up in family homes. So I think what you're saying, which is so powerful, is the earlier and clearer I set a boundary and hold the boundary, the fewer instances...

of kind of requests where I'll have to say no will come up because it's completely clear, right? Like to me, if I asked my pilot during the flight, like, can I come into the cockpit? You know, like I would say no. But if in the beginning, the pilot's like, just so you know, I know a lot of people love the cockpit. Like,

Like definitely not happening during the flight, making that clear. Like I might not ask, but if I just went up and they're like, no, I might be like, well, maybe now. I mean, it's been 60 seconds. Maybe now the pilot's going to let me get in, right? So where is an example you think in a family home that kind of brings that to life?

I know you've been talking a lot about screen time. And so one of those boundaries that we have in our home and every home is different is that we don't do screen time during the week. And so first of all, the way that we communicate that is we do screens on the weekends. We actually don't even say that we're not doing it during the week. You know, we just talk about the weekends. And

And so by setting that boundary, which we didn't have all the time, you know, it was kind of like, oh, not much on the school days. But then we just realized that that was an easier way of just defining it, holding it, sticking to it. And I would say, you know, after maybe the first week or two of that, we rarely get a request from any of our kids. Hey, can we watch this? Because they just...

No. And so if we had kind of a blurred boundary where sometimes we watch it, but only if I feel like it or only if it's one short show or the blurrier, then we would get those requests maybe daily. Like, is this the day that I get to push that boundary? And so I think that's whatever the boundary is for your family. I think screen time is a really good place to set those. I think that's right. And I think sometimes when our kids push our boundaries...

We think, oh, they're being difficult, right? But I'm thinking about it this way. Let's say I worked in an office and like no one made it clear what time I should be there ever.

And I feel like I would just ask a lot of questions. I'd be like, is 9 a.m. good tomorrow? Oh, no, 8.30. Oh, okay, today's a 10. And then I'd be like, oh, Becky is so annoying. No, you can't come in at 10. I've told you you can't come in at 10. But then I'm like, I don't see the Thursday work hours. So like maybe 10 is okay now. And I'm not trying to get away with anything. I'm honestly just information seeking. But if my boss said, hey, there's been some confusion. And then there's been a lot of questions. And so I'm going to put something on the wall.

make it perfectly clear. To be honest, you're still human. You might still have complaints or questions, but my guess is they're going to go down when something's on the wall. Here are working hours. And you're right. Maybe they're different here, whatever. It doesn't even matter. But here they are. And we're going to do this for a month. And then you can expect at the end of the month for us to talk about it. Maybe we'll reassess. But now you know exactly what to expect. I mean, I don't think anyone would think I would ask as many questions about

And then if I did say, what time should I be on Thursday? 10. I feel like my boss could come over to the wall and be like, Becky, that's a great question. I get that you want to come in at 10 here. Oh, yeah. The thing on the wall says nine because now it's a little bit of like us against the wall instead of me.

me against my boss or me against my parent, right? Exactly. This is the way it is. And, you know, that doesn't mean my daughter is even, she negotiates, well, you said, you know, school days and if it's a teacher workday, it's technically a Friday, but, you know, so there is that, there's room for discussion there. And like you said, it can say, hey, let's

point to the wall. You're right. I said on days that we have school, we're not watching. And this happens to be, you know, good point. And so you're still pointing to that and leaving room for discussion, but it's set in stone in a way so that, you know, kids like boundaries. They like having that structure, like you said. I think that's right. Just like

I would like to know what time I'm expected to be at work, right? And I think people are like, do kids really like boundaries? Kids like expectations and routines. And I think humans, we like to know what's expected of us. Not just to be, quote, good, just because if not, I always feel like it's like an adult running around trying to do their day without a calendar. That's like a panic attack, right? Yes, yes. So how does that relate to routines? And I'm just curious, though, Laura, how you see, if at all,

There are those weeks or those days where you're like, oh, I know I said this amount of screen time, but like, I just, whatever the reason is. How do I deal with those exceptions? What should I expect after? Is it all lost? Like, how do you manage that? I,

I always shoot for that 80-20 rule. And I think that that's a good place to land because nobody's perfect. And there may be that day, you know, and if something happens where my child is sick and we're watching screens because of that, you know, I like to communicate that that's why we have the exception or it's a teacher work day. So today we don't have school. So you're right. It feels like a weekend. And that's why we're watching one show today. And so giving those reasons and pointing it out instead of, you know, just letting it happen kind of shines the light on this is that 20%.

And so, you know, nobody's perfect. But I think if you're holding the boundary a good amount of the time, it becomes regular in their head. I think that's so in line with what I think too. And I just feel like we're humans. Like we're not robots. Like again, if I was in an office that all the time had 9 a.m. and my boss never, ever let us come in late one day, like I just feel it doesn't feel good, right? So there is this dance where you want boundaries and expectation and you want humanity to play out with a little bit of flexibility.

And I always think with my kids, before I kind of get flexible on a boundary, I just have to accept that reestablishing that more regular boundary is going to take a beat. And that doesn't mean I shouldn't be flexible. And actually, if I'm not afraid of that, I know for me, I actually just say that. I'll say, look, today's a, you know, bonus screen time day. It's like whatever you want or this, whatever needs to happen. And then I'll actually own, hey, tomorrow we're going to go back to the schedule. And I just want to say upfront,

That's probably going to feel hard. You're probably going to ask me more questions. When I say, oh, we're back to that calendar. I have a feeling you might whine. You might, you know, have a hard time. And sweetie, I'm not afraid of that. It's okay. We can both face it. That's probably what's going to happen. We'll get through it together. I always feel...

I don't know if I can say that. I don't want to get an explicit rating, but like a bad blank parent, okay, when I'm like saying to my kid in advance that like you might have a hard time and I'm going to be okay with it. I feel like really powerful. And so it sounds like that's in line. Like, of course, those moments are going to happen. And do you think that's right? Then like your kid probably will protest a little more after? Yeah.

I think it's just like you gave the example of your boss. Maybe they start to say, hey, we are going to do a week for the summer of coming in from 11 to 3, and that's the summer hours. And it's probably going to be tough coming back to regular hours when we get here in the

fall and it's going to feel hard, you know, and I think just having that vulnerable conversation up front, you know, anything with kids pre paving it for them, like this is how it might go. This is how it might feel. It just gives them that one extra tool they have to say, I'm not going to be as surprised and gives, gives that smoothness to the transition. And if it's not smooth,

you already talked about it. So that's the benefit. And I think for parents, right, we often take this opposite approach when we're flexible with our boundaries. And I think it's so important because I think it's important to define, I always go back to like what's being a sturdy leader, where we put the focus on our kids. So we'll say, okay, so today is more of a yes day for screens, but look, tomorrow,

You better not. You better not whine. You better not ask me for more. Right? And again, like if a boss had a summer schedule and then was like to the whole staff, and look, back in September, you better not complain. I just feel like, whoa. Like, I want my boss to say the opposite. It would probably be hard. And I'm not afraid of that because I know we can get through it. Right. And so you actually kind of put the gaze back on you rather than them. So yeah, we're going to change. And if that's hard...

I know you're essentially saying to your kid, I know I'm going to still be able to establish my boundaries again. That's basically what you're saying, which feels so comforting to people to hear that. And what we're going to do instead. So it might be really hard, but maybe we'll go out and do something fun, you know, or maybe we'll do this differently tomorrow for not doing screens. And so giving them that shift to what they can maybe look forward to or what you're saying yes to instead of what you're saying no to.

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Okay, so we've warmed this up with my favorite topic. I can clearly tell you're, you know, when I get my boundary tattoo, I'll send you the image. We can tattoo twins. It's gonna be like the new thing. I'm picturing it on TikTok. I love that. Now I want to talk about this word that I honestly want to hear more about from you because I hear parents saying, I'm so exhausted. I can't even get something done. And then for some reason, maybe I'm overthinking it.

Okay, I hear this word productivity, and I don't know why. Maybe my listeners are like, Becky, you should talk to your therapist. That's your own trigger. But for some reason, I was like, oh, what? Now I have to be productive. So I know you have a way of thinking about it. That's probably different than maybe what someone imagines, and there's different parts of it and different seas of it. So can you just give us your understanding of productivity? The exact reason you said that is why I didn't want the title to include productivity of my book, because I feel like it gives that

now I have to like churn things out. I have to get things done. And so when I speak to groups, sometimes I ask people to think of the most productive day they've ever had. And then I ask them, you know, raise your hand if it was a day that you were sitting on the couch all day or a day that you went to the spa and did nothing but read your book. And nobody ever raises their hand for that. But in my mind, if your intention was to relax and unplug and

and you set aside the time to go to the spa, and you relaxed and did it well, then that was a productive day. And so thinking about productivity as more of a long-term play, how does it work with well-being? Because when you are well, you actually are more productive. And when you're more, quote, productive, meaning doing the things you want to do at the time you want to do them, you actually leave more room for your well-being. And it's this...

cycle that is actually really positive where, you know, a lot of people ask me, how do you balance them? But balance means they're on two ends of the scale. It means that there's constantly a teeter between them. But really, if you can find a way to merge them, that is where the sweet spot lies. The five C's of productivity. Can you just go through them? What that means?

So that's really the way that ideas move through us. So when we think, oh, I, you know, I need to buy that birthday gift. That's the first thing that's, that's create. And then we need a way to make sure that we get that out of our head because our heads are for thinking, not for keeping all of that mental noise. They're just for creating new. And so we pull that somewhere into a list or some sort of system that we have, which I talk about a lot.

And then we consolidate it into when am I actually going to order these gifts? You know, when am I going to look for them? Then we actually close, which is ordering the gift. But the most important part is what I'm most passionate about is leaving that calm, that C for calm. And so a lot of people think...

taking that downtime, taking that time for yourself, taking that time, you know, to work out or whatever it is that that's actually the trade off. Oh, well, I'm not being productive during that time. But the place that you think of your best ideas are not, you know, knee deep in your email or super stressed or in meetings. It's actually when you're on the walk with the dog, you know, it's those down moments. So that calm is the most important C because that is when we actually create

And so especially I would love to hear your thoughts on this too. Just how do we create some of that downtime for our children? And when we have really packed schedules sometimes in an activity world, trips and school

and all of these things, you know, how do we, for me, sometimes it's just turning off music and podcasts in the car, just seeing what happens when it's totally silent. Like what does, what does my six-year-old start to talk about? What happens? It doesn't explode? It's like, maybe it's those moments and, you know, how do we make room for that? And one thing I love from my baby's music class, she said,

parents, please refrain from talking between songs because babies don't hear music when it's on. They hear it when it stops. So those quiet moments between the songs are when babies hear the best music. And I was like, isn't that true for all of us in a way? And how can we create more of those quiet moments for that calmness? You're making me think about two different things. I can never remember who said it, but that in the space between urge and action,

We learn everything we need to know about ourselves. And I remember someone saying that, and I thought as a corollary, and most of us are invested in making the space between urge and action as short as possible, right? Because that's the quiet. Like, oh, I want to go back to my email, and I want to order these things on Amazon, and I also have to get this birthday gift, and wait, the laundry. Okay, what would happen if I sat on the couch, and I know someone listening is like, Dr. Becky, are you trying to give me a panic attack? Like, am I trying to get high as wet, right? But

And actually, I think a lot about urge surfing here, which is an idea from addiction, which the idea of surfing an urge, putting a little space between urge and action is really important for making good decisions and learning about ourselves and having that quiet, right? But the idea of urge surfing is like, can I just pick an amount of time? It feels uncomfortable, but it doesn't feel impossible. And then so therefore, there's no right number. For someone might say, if I had all those things to do, if I surf that urge for 10 seconds before acting on it, that would be hard.

Amazing, your number is 10 seconds. Someone else might say, I could do six minutes. You're not better. That's just, you're actually the same. You're both at an edge, which is amazing. It's just personalized for you. And now I'm surfing that urge. And what happens in that quiet? Right.

What happens in my body? What would happen if I did that every day? Like when we actually think about, and I'm like this, so anyone hearing me who knows me is like, oh my God, Becky, everyone should be rolling their eyes at you. You're such a hard time sitting still. But when I try to work on it, I take an urge surfing perspective.

I'm not like, I'm going to sit on the couch and quiet for 15 minutes and meditate. No. I'm like, okay, there's going to be a point where I'm going to sit on the couch and I'm going to notice a million things that I want to do. But I now can do that for five minutes and I'm stretching that ability. And the discomfort gets less intense over time just because like anything else, it's practiced, right? And when I think about productivity...

I think we live in this like digital world with this endless scroll. And so there's always information. There's always things to check off. There's always things to order. There's always things to reply to. And our brain loves that form of productivity because it releases hormones that feel good, right? And so in that world, it's so easy to feel like sitting down.

And being with yourself, which does not release those types of hormones, is not enough. Like I always think like our phones are stealing our enoughness. They're just stealing. And so that pause, I love thinking that is a productive pause. Urge surfing is productive even if it's for 15 seconds.

Mm hmm. Exactly. And I feel like you talk about even when you're spending time with your kids, I think in your book, it's PNP or phone free time. So thinking about that with yourself and saying, if I am going to take that urge surfing to the next level and say it is it is hard not to just pick up my phone. What if I just went on a three minute walk? What if I just walked around my cul-de-sac and didn't bring my phone with me?

And that's giving your brain almost that permission. There are studies that even if you're not looking at your phone, but you know it's there, your brain waves are different. And so if you are just leaving it for three minutes and going on that walk, it's helping you urge surf for that amount of time to say, hey, I actually can't do anything about anything right now. I can just...

be. And like you said, any amount of time is a positive amount of time. And that might be when you think of your best idea or you remember that thing you really wanted to do because you let your brain kind of soak in for a second. You know, I recently, I'm about to say something that everyone's like, Becky, what have you been doing with your free time? But I recently met a face reader. That's a thing. Deep respect. This man was amazing. We were talking about exercises around being and pausing. And he talked about standing in front of your mirror in the morning

And for an amount of time that you can do that feels uncomfortable, but possible, staring into your own eyes. And now it's really hard for people, right? Because you're just being and you're like getting to know yourself, like almost literally. Yeah.

Right. But it's just coming up in this conversation because I think our listeners, me too, it's like, you know what's so much easier than that? Getting the lunchbox made right away, stressing about something, complaining about something, reading an article that after I read it, I'm like, that was totally useless. I didn't need to read that. I made a bad mood, but it's easier to do that. Right. But all of these moments right now, I actually think they also connect to boundaries. And I just want to do that for parents because

In order to set a boundary clearly, you actually have to be in touch with what you want and need. Most people, when they're not setting boundaries, sometimes they're like, yeah, what do I want my kid's screen time schedule to be? And when you're staring in the mirror at yourself or taking a walk without your phone or sitting on the couch before you fold laundry...

And those conversations with yourself come up because we're not distracted by all the things we're doing for other people. And we're kind of starting to tune in to what do I want? What are my values? And so I think these things are really connected.

Yeah. I love the example. If you think about walkie talkies, you know, when we're doing all those things and we're productive and we're churning out, that's you holding the button on your own walkie talkie, but you can't hear what's coming from the other side, unless you let go of the button. That's how they work. Yeah.

Your brain is the same way. If you're constantly on, if you're constantly scrolling, if you're constantly ordering, if you're constantly on that active part of your brain, you can't get that feeling from yourself of, oh, this is what I really want. Or that looking in the mirror or on that walk, that's lifting your finger off the button so that you can get that other side of it. Yes. So, so powerful. Yeah.

Any last thing you want to leave parents with? I know there's already been so many tools around boundaries. I think for people, the insight of, oh, if I feel like I'm saying no all the time to my kid, I wonder if I have to make a boundary that's more general, clearer, sooner is like life changing. Anything else that you're like, oh, I have to get this in for parents?

I think one of the other passions of mine, other than boundaries, is just energy and knowing your energy, planning for your energy, being realistic about it, and just doing the same for your kids. And so I noticed little things about my own energy, like I'm such a morning person, but by bedtime, I'm really burnt out. My husband is the exact opposite. He's actually really tired in the morning and doesn't

do breakfast with a big smile, but he's the king of bedtime making up all of these fun stories. And so just learning those patterns about yourself, even your kids, I had my daughter in Thursday gymnastics. She always seemed drained. It had been a long week and Thursday was just...

a bad day. We moved it to Monday. She loves it. And so just figuring out what they're different for every person, but figuring out what those energy levels are for you and for your kids and surfing them the same way you would urge surf going with them, I think has made a huge difference in

me as a parent, me as a worker, and some way that I am able to help my kid and just say, hey, you're not normally in the mood for this right now. Let's do something you are in the mood for and do this at a time when you have more energy. And so I think getting in touch with that as well as your boundaries can be a big game changer. I think you're absolutely right. And there's a noticing I think parents can do. Me too, when something's hard with my kid,

I'm like, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? But sitting off and think about is like if my kid, I don't know, couldn't hit a tennis ball over the net. And I was like, what do I do? I feel like I'd first have to be like, well, let me watch her swing. Like, is it her swing? Is it her body positioning? Like, as much as I want to fix it right away or do something...

It actually is going to be more effective if I notice and collect data first. Right. And so I just want to give parents permission to be like, oh, this flow and energy thing. I wonder if like, what would it be like to just take kind of energy metrics from your kid? And like you have a kid's name, maybe two, and you have at 9, 12, 5, 8 p.m., whatever it is. You just know like positive good energy. And you're just like, I'm just going to do this for a week. There might be patterns. There might not. Right.

If there aren't patterns, you're in the same place as you did, you were before. So, you know, no harm there. But you actually might, wow, that's actually so interesting. My kid has like amazing positive energy in the morning. And this other kid, that makes sense why they want to do a million after school activities because they actually have all their energy then, right? And just doing an inventory without any need for action, I think is a great first step. Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah.

So tell everyone where they can find more of you because I know your ideas are so practical, so spot on. Yes, I have a website, lauramaywithaniemartin and Instagram and my book, Uptime. Amazing. Well, thank you. And I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast. Or you could write me at podcast at goodinside.com.

Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. And you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold.

I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's game-changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have.

Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp, and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves...

Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.