Talking Dateline: Wrong Turns
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Hello, everybody, and keeps more and we are talking deadline today. I'm here with we couldn't get anybody else so josh mak, hello, josh. So we're going to talk about this episode, right, which is called .

wrong terms named after my career yeah .

that's accurate if you haven't seen IT is the episode right below this one on your deadline podcast feeds? So go there and listen to IT and stream IT on peacock and then come back here and there are spoiled ers here, of course. So be careful about that um for this talking deadline.

Josh has never before her clip from his interview with detective story I get right sh but to rec APP. When Justin hilbert body was found on the side of the road, investigators never imagined another murder would help them piece together the question of who killed Justin. Investigators uncovered a verger plot fuel by greed and jealousy, but one which went horribly wrong.

The intended victim survived, but her boyfriend, Justin and one of her boyfriend's killers was killed as well. Josh, let's stock deadline. This was quite a remarkable story. I mean, IT was one of those stories. Josh IT seems to me that you say if I was fiction, you wouldn't believe IT IT was just seemed too fanciful.

too strange. I mean, it's nuts and it's astonishing for its sort of audacity. And it's just absolute evidence and greed and jealousy and hatred and stunning incomplete by the criminals um who you know we learned IT out their plan right in front of somebody else who have talking with long enforcement.

And look, we've done you and I have ve done plenty of stories before in which somebody kills their spouse for the insurance money. But this is a little bit different because, first of all, that insurance policy was in its last hours of life, which meant the killing had to happen with a very finite period of time. So time yeah, had to die then, and they couldn't make that happen. And then everything fell apart after that.

What was he like to sit with tonia and talk to a woman who you knew and he knew was to be the target of a murder plot. And somehow he managed to survive. But her rosman died .

without her. I don't know that we could have done this story because this is kind of her story. She's the intended victim, although he wouldn't, didn't didn't leave her house that night and so therefore didn't get kill and she's also the victim because the father for child and the man that I think really had loved since they were about fourteen years old, was taken for her.

And as murder will often IT seems to have broken their relationship between china and justice. Parent.

which I feel very bad about you, originally, they were going to the court hearings and motion hearings and the status conferences together to also show the united front for Justin. But you know, justice parents are sort of unable to get past the idea that without he is involvement with time yet he's still alive. They certainly not believe that they had anything to do with that.

And they I don't think anybody thinks that this could have been foreseen. But that said, know, the mom said to me, you justice mom, like, look, if they're not together, if they don't get reinault, my sons may not be a rational thing, but it's what the parents are dealing with. It's just hard too hard because .

those parents every minute, every minute, the day they're thinking about their son, every time they wake up in the morning, you go to bed at night, that's the only thing they can think about. And he if he reminds them of that even more, I can see where they couldn't do IT, how soon in the process the deadline became to cover this story.

I think we begin to cover IT fairly quickly. IT took a very long time to get for a murder to courtroom. Partly that's because this plot took a while unravel and in part because, you know, cove IT, I think, is still a yeah still a sort of bomb that was dropped into the criminal justice world and the ripples, you know, are still being felt because stuff got the laid and therefore other things got the laid and just everything takes longer.

Now is there a scenario that if bai wasn't killed, you think investigators, whatever figured this out.

you know, there's no way to know, obviously. I mean, there's a couple of different schools of thought about baily. One is that, you know, he was killed because Jerry thought he was he was the weak link and he was gona talk, you know.

But look, you've got a very sort of, you've got this triumph of evil. You mean, you get Jerry off this controlling navy guy who, you know maritime, you treated horribly and then wanted to exact of vengeance when he left him in and they got divorce. You have barely sharp who was gerda new girlfriend and coconina ira or and he went along with this in. The prosecutor made IT very clear, as if he were alive, SHE would be facing a murder charge no question and ono um you know probably the muscle here and also a career criminal uh with the proverbial rap sheet as long as your ARM and a very sophisticated guy because when they find his DNA and fingerprints on just's car he cops the auto theft to give himself an alias for murder which brings us to .

the different jurisdictions problem that one police, the problem was investigating one word, a different police development, the other matter. And you know, IT took a long time for one to figure out what the other was doing .

and they're right in the same place. Riverside police investigated bailies murder, riverside county sheriff office investigated justice murder. And that plot and IT wasn't clear until Ricky, who d spoke in the riverside, believes ended up speaking to the riverside shares office that the sort of dimensions of that plop became clear.

Tell me about a little bit more about what was his name? Alcoholic Ricky?

Alcoholic Ricky? Well, alcoholic Ricky was in bailes phone. That was his name in the phone. He worked at the hook lunch. He gotten to know jarred and and Bailey and danny sono, who were occasional customers there and overheard this conversation about how if if geri's wife died, Jerry, that would get an insurance payout. And he's the person, Ricky, he's the person who sort of made that connection to investigators without him.

I don't think they would have been in the case.

I think I think they didn't know what the motive was.

Was Ricky ever the subject of any suspicion at all on the part of investigators?

I don't believe he was ever under suspicion at one point, as we've talked about in the in the story um Ricky discloses something that he hadn't talked about earlier which was that when danny uh Serena comes back from what IT appears to be uh Justin s actual killing Ricky describes that as having bloody clothing that doesn't change. What did change is that danny apparently gave Ricky the bloody clothing and said get rid of this. And Ricky did because I think he was terrified of these guys.

In rick's case, one wonder, what would have ever had he known who to call? Because IT wasn't. He were expected to be from his point of view.

This has happened to a lot of people, but i'll tell a small story. My car was broken into some time ago. The only important thing that was still one of the car was my ipad. Um and you know, you want your ipad so I called the police as part of this. Eventually somebody came around.

I let me just parenthetically say that i'm sort of astonished that police did not snap to attention when I was your voice on the first.

Eventually they came over and looked at the broken winter, uh, and they said they do what they could um but I could see that the ipad was moving out of their jurisdiction one small town to the next small town to the next smalltown to the next small zone. Now there are four police departments, and I don't know where the damping darn thing is right in my friends.

And so you have to know which police department to call, because you don't know who's investigating what. And in rick's case, I mean, how would you know who is investigating this case? Did that make any sense?

Why did you said you? Yes, although i'm anxious to hear the end now of that story and what you actually get your ipad back.

I didn't find IT here. I found IT on my, but not from the police, although, you know, they were a guys and they put a little bit everything to you, but they got more important things to do than finding some guys, some old .

dude ipad using find my .

iphone APP thing and what went there.

and duck IT out with the guy. This is where I want this story to go.

Yes, I absolutely. I had a fight, fight. I took him down by goi.

We need more of a talking date line to all about the fighting out. And do IT .

was buried under a bush? Not buried exactly IT was hidden underneath a bush beside the road not far from a uh a um you know fast food place where I think the thigh actually was at the time that I found the ipad.

That's a good story. Thank you. right? And then as I recall, that's not the end of the story is IT. Then you went into the fast food place and said, who just ordered a nuckles sandwich? And the next thing you know that I was making out with the floor.

you bet, you bet that's that's my way of doing business.

That's the key.

I know when we get back, we've got a clip from josh's interview with detective story. He'll tell us what I was like sitting face effects with the parents of a suspected killer.

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So you SAT down with detective story, josh, to talk motors for danny jarred and Bailey with regard to Justin murder and what was like telling baily's parents about her involvement in his death, that detective had a jobs to do that for sure. So here is a clip that did not make IT into .

the episode. What's the .

driving force here? Is this money? Is this jealousy? Is this hatred?

I think it's a little bit all three, and I think that was a different for each person. IT looked like danny was motivated strictly by by greed um daily obviously money again um but .

there are .

money all three money hatred. Jealous y pushed into that point over .

a very long period of time, Bailey sharp went from victim two, uninvited cold spirit, and only uninitiated she'd been murdered. Have you tell .

your parents .

that is a difficult conversation? But the family had struggled with daily for some time, an unfortunate but inevitable, I think, result given the the last star that you'd fAllen into.

I think this was very difficult for a .

surgeon story because .

you know Normally when you are a police officer and you're making a death notification like that's hard enough to talk to grieving parents and say your son or daughter is no longer with us, it's some mouse to say, you know, your son, daughter no longer with us and if they were, they be on trial for murder. Now, boys, that didn't happen in that conversation. Bailes family didn't learn about that for a while, but like that, I double let me, which is you've lost your kid and by the way, because they were involved .

in a murder plot and my heart broke for the for the parent of Bailey, who had struggled clearly with her addiction problems for a long time.

You know, we've seen parents, 嗯， 对， who enable their kids, who make excuses for their kids, who would lie for their kids, who give alibis, who hide the evidence, who, like you, do everything they can to get their kid off the hook. Bailly, parents aren't like that at all.

They completely recognize what happened here IT IT IT tears them up, that this addiction, that they were really hoping that he was going to a get past, ended up being sort of the thing that that connected her of this murder, planning her dads a detective with the hell. P. D. And I said to him, like, you know, i'm sure you said to her, don't hang out with the wrong kind of people. Sure you said, you know, don't get involved of the drugs.

And i'm sure you told her, try to get off drugs once you're on drugs and I said, but you probably didn't need to tell her or thought you didn't need to tell her don't get involved in a murder plot but SHE did I mean, and and they're not they don't apologize for that explain IT. They don't try to lessen IT. They they are as horrified by IT as any people would be. They're not pretending and they see this very clearly, which is sort of another reason why you know you can't help and feel terrible for them.

I was in must say, a little surprise that they agreed to come on television at the no.

I mean, I don't even think IT was like taking their castor oil. I mean, IT wasn't like they felt like they deserve some sort of, you know, public discussion of this. I mean, they they were absolutely completely up from that.

They are ashamed of what he did. You know, they spent a huge one of time. I just thinking of her as a murder icicle in which he was. And then later they realize, oh, she's also a murder. And I thought their willingness to sit down, discuss this is forthrightly as they did, was really nothing short of the able to.

But I thought I was very sensitively handle. And I, you know, I I hate giving any credit to you like a witch, because.

you know, know, I know how that sticks in your throat. I know that.

but then I know who you are working with on this story. So they're .

much more tale than I am so .

that's yeah mommah is an amazing producer, partly because of the fact, is an incredibly assured and sympathetic understanding woman who knows what people are going through.

She's a mom and she's got kids and and she's yeah and and that I think helps her connect with with people and rebeca glaser, uh, also producing this episode, also a rising star, a date we have some wonderful .

people we work with. Well, well, listen, I noticed something about the way about this episode, which you've noticed before, and I think that people who watch deadline would like to know about those. You seem to sit at a desperate table with the people on the other side talking to you. Is that the method you use for interviews?

Well, this is going to be the I thought that you getting get a fish fight part was going to be the best part of talking day well, but now I think this is gonna um so I am I know that you traditionally work without notes because you know every detail of the story absolutely called so you consider across from someone and and you don't need any notes. I on the other hand and more of um you know more of a mortal than you are and I don't have your phenomenal memory or your command of the facts.

I'm aware of that that thing said I mean those .

those everyone except where are but I I like to work off of notes. I have all the questions written out um in front of me um and I have them in very big type and bold because I don't want kind of a .

gLances and so I don't want .

to wear these glasses .

on telling them I I .

could hardly look any dumber so .

detective, you know no that's .

nice of you but no um so I like to have all my notes in front of me and I spread them out on a table top which is why I I have a table and there's a table that some of our cruise here in less Angels Carry around with them. So that table has been in a budget of the interviews in southern california and elsewhere in the in the west yes.

so out of town sun and has been .

taken out of town and brought back to town. It's just a very traditional folding table with a wooden top. But it's ah it's been in a lot of different lanes and and IT helps weak because you you can I I can take notes on IT I I can rest my elbows on IT you know emotional .

connection to that table use so often we're .

like this yeah yeah I mean closer than the one I have to you let me just say.

but that would take much now.

And then one more thing about the table, which is that if the person across from you gets angry and trust to lunch at you, which has happened to me at least one time on day one, and you get the table there, yeah which kind of slows them down and allows me to say, no, no, is the person you really want to keep more sons. So and now .

when people launched me, they they usually know actually nobody launched ed at me, just that's so that's something you've got over me.

Nobody, you know, body so angry that they wanted to take a wing at you. I mean, i'm not talking about people work at date.

I think so. I don't think so. They may have thought .

those thoughts.

but they right. Thank you, josh. Appreciate them. I think we've going to dark in Michelle.

Megan in a moment about social .

media questions. Yes.

until we meet again again.

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Everyone, I met all mad again. One of the producers of this episode, wrong turns IT. Turns out both john and Keith are filming today. So my co CER rebeca laser and I are here, and we'll go through your questions from social media how rebeca.

hi. So the .

rebeca was on x on friday answering viewer questions. And i'm not sure if all of our listeners know that. But if you do watch the aisou live, we have a producer online during the broadcast to answer the questions that come up. And you know, josh was online friday too. So definitely you're watching join us on social media that's A A lot of interaction and this one was was pretty tive yeah.

So there are a lot of comments on facebook about the twist in terms of the case. So budget filkins Taylor on facebook said that was one of the best episodes i've seen in a while. I kept having to rewind to make sure I understood this happening. And then nick neo says, one of the best state lines ever and investors in all caps, lots of twists and turns. Michaeli was kind of a twisted tourney case for us to all that too, because we didn't even know who all the players .

were when we first started, right? Oh, exactly. Initially, I understood that there were two murder and two defendants, but I did not know how they were all connected. But one thing I knew was that thia justice girlfriend was going to be key, and I really needed to speak with her to help understand how all of them were connected. The big thing for me, as the case was making a waiter system, was to really learn more about daily sharp SHE was such a mystery of me and to the mystery to do a lot of our audience too .

where Rebecca yeah a lot of people on x thought that Billy shirt was a fake facebook profile until um the part of the episode where we found out that he had been murdered, uh which is something that we didn't even think about as we were writing. So I sort of an interesting thing that we saw up .

up um or after you are at the trial every day.

what was IT like to be in the courtroom. I mentioned this on x too but IT was fascinated me how there were no other reporters in the court room as the ory of what happens I ted to unfold in trial. I was just more and more shocked if there was no one else there um because IT was that was so fascinated what .

happened and remember you called me and said something interesting happened during .

a break so the judge was off the bench and I was quiet and I remember of hearing someone say Rebecca and he was shared and he was looking right at me and IT turned out he just he wanted in my business card um and was interested in talking with me. But it's a little drawing to hear your name called out across the corner by the defendant. He was actually interested in sitting down and doing an interview with us, but eventually his lawyer recommended against IT just because the case is going through appeals, and which is pretty standard. But he was interested in talking initially.

The next topic is a big one on facebook. A lot of people were talking about the broken relationship between Justin's family, antonia and her baby, and Justin's baby logan. Peg watts and ebert said Justin's parents are missing relationship with their grandson.

Why would they do that? And then jill tod said, hopefully someday some parts will be able to embrace third grants on anthon yet, you know, we can't dide. We don't know all the dynamics.

You know, everybody is gna go through this process very differently. You know, I think we addressing the story as much as we we could, but that's a heavy part of this case that buler back. And I wanted to be very sensitive about .

at the end of the day, it's their grieving process to go through. And you know, they allowed us a window into a small part of that. And you know, we don't know how theyll feel in the future or really the full extension of how they all feel about each other. We can never understand that.

Thank you so much for listening. Remember, if you have any questions for ross about our stories or date line, you can reach out to us on social date line.

And B, C. Also get ready for key's latest original podcast series, the man in the black mask, what a man goes missing from a movie set a real life horr story unfolds beginning october fifty, and people listen to the latest. This is completely free or to begin listening now subscribed to deline premium on apple podcast spotify or deline premium dog cop.

I can't wait. I love this podcast. And of course, we'll see you on friday for date line on nc.

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