SERIAL KILLER: The Alphabet Murders Part 1
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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about innocence and how easily it can be stolen and the vulnerability it brings. This is the story of Carmen Colon, Wanda Walkowitz, and Michelle Mayenza.

It's around 530 on a cold November evening in 1971 in Rochester, New York. And one by one, commuters on the Western Expressway are jolted out of their routine drives home by what they see on the shoulder of the highway. Driver after driver slows and like cranes their neck as they pass this almost unbelievable sight in front of them.

It's a young girl, naked from the waist down, with her pants clutched in her hand, and she is screaming and waving her arms as she runs in the direction of oncoming traffic. And what she's running from is clear. There is a car on the shoulder driving in reverse to chase her.

According to a book called Nightmare in Rochester, one driver who we'll call Dave turns to his passenger, I'm sure in a total state of disbelief, and asks if he should turn back. Hi, Dave, this is Britt.

Happy to answer that question for you. Yes, yes, you should absolutely turn back. Yeah, but easier said than done, maybe. I mean, it's rush hour because turning back isn't really an option per se. They'd have to like get off at an exit, get back on the expressway coming in the other direction. Okay, so get off at an exit, then get back on the expressway coming in the other direction. I don't see why this is even a question. And also, why is Dave the only one asking? Yeah.

Honestly, I'm sure they're all asking it, but maybe the bystander effect kicks in for everyone the same way it does for Dave. Because he lets that irrationally rational part of his brain take over, the part that just wants to explain this whole thing away. I mean, all these other drivers are seeing the same thing and they're not stopping, so obviously it's not that big of a deal.

And so no one stops. Not a single car stops.

But the sight sticks with Dave. It bothers him enough that he tells his wife about it when he gets home. But he still doesn't report what he saw to anyone official. And neither do any of the dozens of other drivers who saw the exact same thing. So when the Rochester Police Department gets a report of a missing child just hours later around 7.50 that evening, the scene on the expressway isn't anywhere on their radar.

And this report that they do get is from the family of a little girl, a 10-year-old named Carmen Colon. She lives with her grandparents, but both her parents are in her life, especially her mom, Guillermina. And without getting sidetracked, I want to acknowledge really fast that Carmen's family situation is troubling, to say the least.

Guillermina was only a teenager when Carmen was born, and the father is this guy named Justiano, or maybe Justiniano, depending on the source, but I'm going to refer to him as Justiano. But this guy was not only married to Guillermina's sister, but he was also twice Guillermina's age. So essentially we're talking statutory rape by her brother-in-law. That is the least sugar-coated version, yes.

And at this point in the story, Guillermina is living with Justiano's brother, Miguel Colon. I think they're, like, dating. So what the family tells police is that earlier that afternoon, Carmen went up the street to Jack's drugstore to fill a prescription for her baby sister who had an earache. And Carmen runs little errands like this for her family all the time, though every other time, her grandpa is usually trailing close behind her or keeping an eye on her from the yard.

But today, Grandpa didn't get the message, so when Carmen took off down the street, there was no one keeping watch. And then Carmen just didn't come back. The family tells police that they spread out around the neighborhood looking for her, but I'm sure they were expecting to find her safe and just distracted by something along the way. Right, in true 10-year-old fashion. Right, but they couldn't find her anywhere. And by the time she's reported missing at around 7.50, panic has set in.

Investigators respond and conduct a search as well as a neighborhood canvas that starts either that evening or the next morning. One of their obvious first stops is Jack's drugstore, where they speak to the owner who says, yeah, he did see Carmen right around 4.30 when she brought in a prescription to be filled, but he told her it was going to take a few minutes, that she should come back in like maybe a half hour. So she left, but then she never came back to actually get the medication.

What investigators quickly come to realize is that was the last time anyone saw Carmen. What about the commuters? Do any of them come forward about what they saw now that there's this little girl that's been reported missing? Not right away. I don't know how much media attention Carmen's disappearance gets right off the bat because investigators aren't necessarily assuming foul play right away. They're

I mean, they're trying to find her for sure. She's only 10. But according to Michael Benson's book, Nightmare in Rochester, they're especially focused kind of on places Carmen could be hiding rather than like have been taken to. Right. So they're looking at like vacant houses, places like that.

So it seems like there's not a lot of people outside of this small group, like law enforcement, her family, neighbors, who even realize she's missing. But it won't stay that way for long, because on November 18th, two days after Carmen disappeared, two teens are out riding around on the rural roads of town just to the south of the expressway in this town called Riga.

And that's when one of them sees something in the ditch alongside the road. They turn back to figure out what it is. And as they approach, they're kind of thinking like, oh, this is a life-size doll or something. Or at least they're hoping that's what it is. But as they get closer, they realize that it's not a doll. And as crime junkies know all too well, it almost never is.

There in front of them, up against a boulder, is the partially clothed body of a little girl. And it is a brutal scene, you guys. I wish I could avoid describing it, but unfortunately, what I have to say is relevant to the investigation. The little girl is wearing a purple sweater and white sneakers, but she is naked from the waist down. Her body seems to be covered in scratches, and there are bruises around her throat.

So the boys, seeing this, book it home. They tell an adult what they found. That adult immediately contacts law enforcement. And once investigators arrive at the scene, it seems like it doesn't take long to ID this little girl as Carmen. And from what they can tell, it looks like she's been killed elsewhere and then just left here. When her autopsy is performed the next day, the awful circumstances of her death are fully revealed.

She'd been sexually assaulted and there are fractures in both her skull and her neck. Her cause of death is determined to be manual strangulation and she had been killed at least 24 hours before she was found. As word gets out about this, the community is horrified. And then they're outraged. Because that's when witnesses from the expressway start coming out of the woodwork with what they'd seen but done nothing about just a few days prior.

And to make matters worse, the usefulness of their information is kind of limited by now because their recollections aren't exactly consistent. The Democrat and Chronicle reports on November 22nd, for instance, that investigators received, quote, six different vague descriptions of the car they saw backing along the shoulder of the expressway to recapture the girl. Now, I don't know all of the descriptions or what they're doing to track down this driver, but I know that they aren't close to finding him.

And he knows they aren't close to finding him either. So he decides to taunt them with a chilling message scrawled on the door of the men's restroom at a local department store.

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Pictures of the message are taken and the police dust the whole area for prints. But, I mean, this is a public bathroom. Like, who knows if you're going to be able to get anything useful? And it's 1971, so no security cameras. And they seemingly aren't able to find any witnesses who might have seen the message being written. And to be fair, I mean, sure, maybe this message is even just someone's idea of a sick joke. But what if it's not?

So a tip line is set up by a local newspaper company and calls do start coming in. But even as each tip is passed along to investigators, none of them really lead anywhere. This is probably kind of a silly question, but are investigators sure that it was Carmen that the witnesses saw running? Oh,

Oh, yeah. To be honest, I'm not sure there's ever much of a question. But if there was any doubt, all of that is laid to rest by the end of November, because that's when Carmen's frozen green pants, the ones that she had been waving in her hand as she was running on the expressway, that's when they're found within a few hundred feet of where she was seen on the expressway. But the finding of her pants, that's about all that really happens.

Before long, an investigation that initially spanned two separate agencies, the Monroe County Sheriff's Office and the Rochester Police Department, is down to just three detectives with the MCSO. And from the outside, it kind of looks like the case might be going cold. But in the first few months of 1972, it heats right back up when investigators interview an anonymous witness who has a stunning claim.

What this witness tells them is that Miguel Colon, so Carmen's mom's boyfriend, remember? But also technically Carmen's uncle too, right? Right. Well, Miguel had said something super sketchy after Carmen's death. According to this tipster, he said that he needed to skip town quickly because he'd, quote, done something wrong in Rochester. According to at least one report in the Democrat and Chronicle, he even mentioned Carmen by name.

And the thing is, he did skip town. He skipped the entire continental U.S., in fact. Dude and his substantial criminal history left for Puerto Rico, where his family is from, just days after Carmen's murder. So investigators decide that it's time for a little tropical getaway.

On March 15th, Monroe County D.A., Jack B. Lazarus, and a small team of investigators land in San Juan planning to confront Miguel about his possible involvement in Carmen's murder. But their plan goes sideways. Because, you see, someone had tipped off the Rochester press about this whole operation. They, in turn, had tipped off the San Juan press.

Which tipped off Miguel. Potentially, because it seems like the same day investigators arrive, he abruptly leaves the San Juan suburb that he'd been living and working in, even leaving a paycheck behind. But where to, they don't know.

According to Michael Benson's book, all they say they know is that he is, quote, armed and on the run. By the time their trip comes to an end, Miguel still hasn't been located. So they head back to Rochester, feeling kind of defeated but not giving up.

And they have this plan in their back pockets. One that the details are kind of fuzzy on. And I just have this gut suspicion that it's probably because it wasn't all on the up and up. Like technically it was, but like maybe we don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Either way, what Sherry Farnsworth says in her book, Alphabet Killer, is that authorities detain Miguel's mother and say that they're basically going to keep her locked up until he comes out of hiding. And that's what seems to do it, because within just days, the Puerto Rican authorities notify them that Miguel has turned himself in.

And he agrees to go back to Rochester for formal questioning, chaperoned by an MCSO detective who is on, like, the first flight back to San Juan to get this guy. Oh, my God. I'm just imagining all the frequent flyer miles right now. Back and forth, back and forth, yeah. Now, when investigators finally sit down with Miguel in Rochester, he is adamant that he had nothing to do with Carmen's death. He says he was in Syracuse the day that Carmen disappeared, not even in Rochester.

Okay, but you just decide to relocate to Puerto Rico the moment your niece disappears when maybe your girlfriend and family need your support the most? That doesn't make sense. Right. Not only is it your girlfriend's aunt, it's your niece. And we never get an explanation for those, like, incriminating comments he was said to have made. Oh, yeah. Now, he does say that it was just a coincidence that he left San Juan when he did. He said he wasn't on the run. He just had to go visit a sick aunt.

Which is like, again, to me, like your aunt is sick, so you have to go. But like your niece slash girlfriend's daughter is missing. And like, yeah, you're willing to move then. OK, whatever. Continue. Either way, he then does something kind of unexpected. He actually demands to take a lie detector test, which he does.

And then he passes. I didn't see that one coming. I don't think they were seeing that coming either. But suffice to say, like, not everyone is totally convinced. When they search his car, which, by the way, somewhat matches at least one of the however many witness descriptions of the car on the expressway, they find a doll of Carmen's, which...

Seems like a red flag to some, but, like, not to everyone. Right. I mean, Carmen was his girlfriend's daughter and or niece. Like, he was in her life. She was in his life. She was probably in his car. Yeah, so there's not much they can really make of that. Now, they don't have enough to charge him, so they kind of have to just keep an eye on him and explore other possibilities. One lead passes briefly on their radar in November of 72. Yeah.

There's this guy who worked near Rochester recently who'd been arrested trying to sexually assault an eight-year-old girl. But he seems to be ruled out just as quickly as he pops up because he's just never mentioned again. Investigators get their hopes up again in March of 73 when they're contacted by law enforcement in California, of all places. They say that they just arrested a man on a similar case out there. And David Medina reports for the Democrat and Chronicle that they found a curious thing in his wallet when he was taken into custody.

It was this newspaper clipping about Carmen's case. Okay, and this is happening clear across the country in California. Uh-huh. Don't love that. And like I said, on its face, it's a similar case, a sexual assault and murder of a young girl, but as bad.

Bizarre as this may be, this guy is ruled out as well because it turns out that he was serving overseas in Vietnam when Carmen was killed. The clipping from Carmen's case, that means he's just what, like collecting stuff? Yeah, collecting mementos about a 16-month-old child murder across the country, using it as inspiration. I don't know. I don't know. So this guy's ruled out. Meanwhile, life in Rochester has kind of gone...

gone back to normal by now, though only for the people whose lives weren't ripped apart by this. But other parents are starting to let their guards down a bit. And that's when it happens. On April 2nd of 1973, an 11-year-old named Wanda Walkowicz vanishes, just like Carmen, while running a late afternoon errand for her mom, Joyce.

According to Joyce's call to police reporting Wanda missing, which was at like 8.15 that evening, Wanda had asked if she could go to the Hillside Deli a few blocks away to grab some things that Joyce needed for dinner. And Joyce agreed, but that was hours earlier, around 5, maybe a little after. And so when she didn't come home right away, Joyce sent Wanda's 10-year-old sister and a 12-year-old neighbor to the deli to find her. But they couldn't. She wasn't there.

Same when Joyce went to the deli herself around 8 o'clock. By now, in like a total panic. Did Wanda ever even make it to the deli? She had. The guy behind the counter had to write everything down to put the items on her mom's tab. And she had gotten everything on the list. Sherry actually lists it in her book as, quote, "'Two quarts of milk, a package of disposable diapers, bread, cupcakes, soup, tuna fish, dog food, and cat food.'"

So law enforcement quickly launched a coordinated search and they find two people who saw Wanda, I mean, literally within, I swear, like seconds of her disappearing. You see, it was kind of raining that day and some kids that she knew were walking down the street in front of her. And they look back and they saw her kind of struggling with her big grocery bag, like kind of leaned up against a fence, probably like pushing it up on her hip, you know, trying to wrap her little arms around it. And they say that they saw a big brown car on the road, too.

But just seconds later, when they turned around again, Wanda and the car were gone. Now, they didn't think anything of it at the time, probably because there wasn't any screaming or commotion or tires squealing away. Just there one second and gone the next. They probably thought she had just gone another way or ducked away to hide under a tree until the rain passed.

You can imagine the collective trauma that the community feels when her body is found the very next day, tossed down an embankment on the side of the road in the nearby town of Webster. Right away, investigators see some similarities between Wanda's death and Carmen's nearly 17 months prior. Yeah, I mean, they're ages for one, and they both disappeared while running errands for their moms, like, kind of like...

kind of late in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. And Wanda's autopsy reveals others. She also died of strangulation after being sexually assaulted. But even though there are similarities, there are differences as well. For one, Wanda was found fully clothed. So her killings...

killer redressed her? Apparently so. And it's also clear that Wanda had been strangled from behind with some kind of ligature, maybe a belt, while Carmen was actually strangled manually with hands like from the front. And maybe the most notable finding is that judging by Wanda's stomach contents, she was fed custard or something like custard before her death, apparently by her killer.

Or at least that's what everyone has to assume because what they find out is she didn't eat that at home and the deli clerks are certain she didn't get it there either. And I know she didn't have cash with her because remember, she's charging her mom's tab for groceries. So she couldn't have gone somewhere else to buy it herself. Okay, so you're saying that the killer fed her ice cream before he killed her? That's what it's looking like, which is like 20%.

Twisted. Yeah. And there's another part that's even more disturbing. So Wanda disappeared late on a Monday afternoon, right? Actually, I don't know if I said that, but it is Monday afternoon. She did. Well, two nights before that, something happened that might have been a sign of what was to come.

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That previous Saturday, some creepy man had, like, followed Wanda and her friends as they were walking around outside after dark.

They didn't get a great view of this guy, but that's because dude was hiding behind a bush when they noticed him. And when they started to run, he chased them. Luckily, they got away. Oh, what the f*** is going on in Rochester? I know. And just for the record, this isn't some, like, neighborhood folklore that got added on top of the story of Wanda's disappearance after the fact. The girl had actually told her mom about the night that it happened. And according to Nightmare in Rochester, there was even a police report.

But without more detail on that, and FYI, we have no more now than they had back in 73, no one knows what to make of that incident. Just like they don't know whether Wanda and Carmen's cases are linked or not. It seems almost impossible that these two cases aren't connected, though. Well, for the time being, investigators aren't so sure. I mean, they're open to a connection. An investigator who'd been working on Carmen's homicide is even assigned to Wanda's just in case. But it's kind of just one possibility among many.

But once again, a tip line is set up, and once again, the tips start coming in, only to be knocked down one by one. Though there is one standout. Investigators are particularly interested in one anonymous caller who claims to have seen a man forcing a red-haired girl into a light-colored Dodge Dart at knife point the evening that Wanda disappeared.

Wanda is a redhead, by the way. So when another tip comes in about a similar car being sighted near where her body was found, they think that they might really be on to something. Does a Dodge Dart match any of the many cars described by witnesses in Carmen's case? I know that the car in her case was described to investigators as like a Lincoln or a Cadillac or a Ford LTD. But I don't know.

But I mean, when you think about it, like this car is chasing Carmen in reverse. And as Michael Benson pointed out in his book, what most people got a view of was just the car's taillights. Like I wouldn't be able to ID a car speeding toward me in reverse. And when I look at the car's name by the witnesses, I could get them confused with a Dodge Dart. But I don't know if that's just because like all the cars from the early 70s look the same to me or what.

So they put out a bolo on the car and make multiple appeals for the callers to come forward. But whoever those callers were, nobody does. And Paula Musto reports for the Democrat and Chronicle that in the end, the tips are largely dismissed. Investigators' hopes are again raised when a possible suspect is brought in and questioned extensively the weekend after Wanda's disappearance. But according to that same article, they're forced to move on when he provides a solid alibi and passes a lie detector test.

As the spring turns into summer and then into fall, it seems as though Wanda's case is destined to follow the same path as Carmen's, slowly growing cold and fading from public consciousness. Two cases, similar and awful, but ultimately more coincidence than pattern. But there's a thing that I've heard a lot of criminal investigators say, a philosophy they subscribe to, I guess. And it's that they don't believe in coincidences, at least not in their line of work.

And that's a lesson that the city of Rochester is about to learn in the worst possible way. On November 26th of 1973, a little over seven months since Wanda was killed and just over two years since Carmen's murder, the Rochester Police Department receives a panicked call from a local woman named Carolyn Mayenza. And it is like deja vu all over again.

It's 5.40 p.m., and Carolyn's 11-year-old daughter, Michelle, hasn't come home from school.

Usually, Carolyn walks both of her daughters home, and she had planned to that day as well. But when she had gotten to the school that afternoon, Michelle wasn't allowed to leave. She was being held late, apparently because of an issue she was having with another kid in her class, and that kid was in trouble too. And I guess the situation was that Michelle was being bullied, like, relentlessly. And that day had been no different.

So I don't know if she reacted. Or maybe, like, had one of those teachers that just punishes everyone involved. I feel like that happens a lot. Right, right. So I don't know why she was held. But either way, she was going to have to walk home alone afterward. But even with her being held back like that, like, she should have been home hours ago, and Carolyn is frantic. Police start another massive search right away, although they're trying not to make any assumptions. Hmm.

And I feel like maybe it's time to start making assumptions. I mean, you have two other young girls who have been murdered in the past two years. I mean, let's stop checking hiding spots first. Let's go full force right away. Yeah, you're not wrong. And to be fair, they're not like burying their heads in the sand either. Everyone understands the context behind it.

But you got to hold on to some hope, right? Detective Captain Andrew Sparacino is quoted in the Democrat and Chronicle as saying, "'The longer she remains missing, the more concerned we are. But all we know now is that she's missing.'"

By the morning of the 28th, that worst-case scenario everyone was hoping against becomes the reality. Because that's when the chief of the Walworth Volunteer Fire Department discovers Michelle's body in the nearby town of Macedon, in a ditch on the side of the road. Like Wanda, she's fully clothed, although her coat is missing.

Like both girls, the bruising around her neck suggests that she'd been strangled. And that suspicion is confirmed at her autopsy, which finds evidence of both manual and ligature strangulation. Like Wanda, she'd been strangled from behind. And like both girls before her, she'd been sexually assaulted. And you mentioned that she was fully clothed, so she was redressed like Wanda was. Yes, and she was also fed like Wanda was.

Remnants of an undigested cheeseburger are found in her stomach, one that only could have been given to her by her abductor. I don't know what it is about this, but that part really bothers me. Like, it just ekes me out for some reason. Like, what's your endgame here? Like, to feel better about what you're doing, feeding them, like, these fun things, feeding them at all? You're still a monster. Like, what's the point?

Well, that's the thing is I don't know if it was like to make him feel better. I think the end game was to get them. Like I have this gut feeling that that was part of his ruse. It's not to make himself feel OK about what he's about to do. But to get them to trust him. Yes, exactly. Like, do you want some ice cream? I'll buy you a cheeseburger. Sit, talk with me. Feel comfortable getting in my car for a ride home. So do you think that tells us anything about Carmen's case if she hadn't?

been fed by her abductor? And she hadn't. Like, I know from her stomach contents that whatever was there was what she had eaten at home. But I think it could mean a few things. Like, at a minimum, I think for sure it tells us that he didn't spend much time with her. But,

But I think more than anything, like, again, she was the first one. It didn't go as planned. So maybe he was going to take her to get food and, like, she just fought back too hard. She got out of the car and everything had to, like, go faster. Or maybe this is the first time he was trying whatever he was trying. And...

he realized the second time, like, okay, I've got to make them more comfortable so they don't do that. There's also a world where he didn't need a ruse because maybe he could have known Carmen. And there's a world where they're not connected. You know what I mean? But there are these other similarities that, to me, support a connection when they're looking at the cases side by side, like physical evidence specifically. ♪

So semen samples were gathered from all three girls, and they indicated that the killer, quote, had a blood characteristic found in only 20% of people. Now, everything only specifically says that they find stuff out about, like, a blood group. Like, it doesn't say exactly what, but everyone kind of speculates what they're talking about is secretor versus non-secretor, which we've talked about before. And...

In this case, like all three cases, they find that the perpetrator of all three was a non-secreter. Now, again, that doesn't mean it's the same perp in all three because they can't compare that at this point in the 70s. It just puts them in one category versus another. Yeah, it's just that all three of them were killed by someone or someones who are in this like 20 percent of the population. Now, there's also something similar that's found on each of them.

All three girls had the hairs of a white cat or a light-colored cat on their clothing when they were found. So it's reported that in Carmen's case, there were light-colored cat hairs. And then in Wanda and Michelle's cases, it's reported that there are white cat hairs. So they obviously aren't thinking that this is a coincidence anymore, right? Well, no, not at all.

No-ish. Everyone's on the same page about Wanda and Michelle definitely being connected. Whoever killed one of them killed both of them. The similarities are just too glaring there. But there were actually some investigators who still see Carmen's case as the outlier.

Because of her not being fed, she wasn't fully redressed, she was strangled differently than the other two, and she had other injuries that were more severe. So, I mean, the questions they're asking is, like, what does it all mean? Is there, is the different MO indicative of a more personal crime? Or, like you said, the guy lost control of the situation with Carmen, lost his temper, you know, learned from his mistakes with Carmen and changed his mind.

and mow a little bit for the next two. I don't know. I know. And the thing that I keep thinking about is he literally couldn't fully redress her because remember, her pants are found on the side of the road.

But she's not found nude. She's found partially clothed. So either those were left on her or at least those were put on her. But it would have been too risky to go back to the place where so many people saw her running to try and search for her pants that she was holding. Like, she must have lost those along the way. So even if he wanted to redress her, it was not an option.

Now, in a move that is seen as innovative at the time, Michelle's body is checked for prints during her autopsy using a state-of-the-art technology which involved like silver and iodine. And they actually find one print that could prove useful, and it was on her neck. Best they can tell, it's from the killer's wrist and palm, so it's not an actual like fingerprint. But that's not something they can put into a database, actually.

I mean, there aren't even databases if they could. It is just something that they can hope to compare to a specific suspect once there is one. And do they compare it to the people that popped up in the other cases? To be honest, I don't know. Although I don't think so because that's never been reported. Like, it's something that I would think you would say. But I think that, like, because of either alibis or lie detector tests, if someone had been eliminated by this point, they just considered them cleared.

So those prints aren't discussed much in terms of comparison for a while.

Like, not till the early 80s. But I get the impression that since it's kind of a weird print, it's not super easy to compare against. So they might be saving that for suspects that they can't rule out in other ways. I don't know. So anyways, a massive task force is formed. And yet again, tips start flooding in. According to Nightmare in Rochester, no fewer than a thousand tips are called in on the first day, Britt. Oh my God. Which is...

It's such like a blessing and a curse, you know? Totally, because I mean, every single one of those tips has to be run down, right? And there are a lot of bogus ones. Right. People use the tip line to like settle scores with neighbors and business rivals. There's an influx of calls from women, some I'm sure more credible than others, reporting suspicious husbands or ex-husbands or boyfriends. But...

It's actually a little girl's story that might turn out to be the most promising. Because this little girl, whose story makes it to police, actually knew Michelle.

In the afternoon, Michelle disappeared. She'd seen something so scary that she raced home afterward, hid in her mom's closet and told her about this. And this thing that she told her mom about as she's telling her mom, this is happening before Michelle's disappearance was known to the public.

I'm going to tell you all about that in part two. You can either listen right now in the fan club or I'll be back in your feeds with part two next week. To see all the photos and source material for this week's episode, visit our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production.

So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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