MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey
03:23:38 Share

High crime monkeys, i'm mashed flowers and i'm bit and i'm finally breaking doing IT are .

going on sure yet all yes.

yeah. So that happening crondall I tour is real. Make sure you in the fan club, if you wanted, buy tickets early, fan club will get access on monday, december second.

Go our website. I linked to all the things to the show. Ba, that's not what I actually, actually, I am doing the case that I said I would never do the case. That is our crime. Junk y origin.

yes, a million times. I mean, never say never, right?

yeah. And like I think he is for a long time. I just didn't think that there was anything that I could add like it's been done seven ways to sunday. I literally feel like there are more like less versions of the bible than there are of like books written by people who like maybe vt. And just .

touched .

that I felt. But what I didn't realize is like, I didn't know the whole story. And I, of course, and talking about the case of john many ramsey.

And when you say, like our origin story, like we were a tabble LED height when IT happened, this is what made us crime drunk.

Yeah, people always ask, like, how did you become a crime drunk? Y and like my mom, my grandma, they they got me in the mysteries. I was reading everything, but really, we are about the same as zombie, which heard that reminded me of when I SAT down with him. And we were in the grocery store. And that was like, the first time you look at somebody who looks like you, who's your age.

and all you see is like murdered her forehead.

And it's when those like mysteries are like all these thing, these things, things happen in real life. So for a generation who didn't grow up tabloid height, staring into the Green eyes of a beauty queen in the making. And for those of us who did, but maybe don't know all the facts or maybe just know this case, like on a surface level, and you want to really know how we got here and what you can do.

Now I got you. I have dug deep. I thought I knew everything there was to know about join a, because I grew up with the case, but I found out that what I knew was just the tip of the freak ice burg. You guys, I have all the same questions that you do.

And I even got to ask those questions to one of the people at the center of this case, someone who has been dumped a child killer by the media, but says that IT is all a lie, and he and his family have been victimized twice, once by an unknown killer, and once again by the media, and actually filmed my conversation with him. You can find that and this episode on the crime junky youtube channel, and I promise you, you're not gonna wanna make. But first let me tell you the story, not from any side.

I have note theory. I thought one thing when I was gone, another thing when I was older. But what I realized, what I actually due deep is that I never had a real understanding of the, and that is what I hope to give you. So if you are looking for a one stop shop, to give you the case a layer deeper than you will hear anywhere else this episode for you. This is the story of jambi ramsey.

Going fine to me, let's go on, okay there and not like. you. Are the weather? Down to her, this the same camera, I don't know. This was the first one of no tears as a rest. And now b two c actually.

Okay, what's your name? Are you?

Again, thank you. please. We just got up, and you are here for my god.

please. Okay, I am funny. Get to be catting parting catting.

That feels like the nine one one call heard round the world by this point. But when I first came into builder police on december twenty six, nineteen ninety six, at five two in the morning, they had no clue how infamous this call was. Gonna come, all they knew was that they had a report of a knapping in an upscale neighborhood of their safe little community.

Now that he says that he made two more calls to friends of theirs after the nine or one call, the Whites, and the fury, he was asking them to come over for support before he went to lik Epace i n f ront o f t he w indow, now what in actuality was probably just a couple of minutes, felt to her like hours. And when the marked car pulled up at five, five, SHE says her heart sink because the ransom letter had said not to call police and that kidnappers were watching and they saw a police that they would hurt job bad. But he was too late now.

When officers french amma a inside, john immediately took him to where the three page handwritten randoms note was like, played out on the wooden for just stop the kitchen near the stars that pati have founded on in bert. I'm going to have you. Would you mind actually breathing? IT? Oh, sure.

The ranted note says, mister ramsey, listen carefully. We are a group of individuals that represented a small foreign action. We respect your business, but not the country that IT serves.

At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. SHE is safe and unharmed. If you want her to see one thousand, nine hundred and ninety seven, you must follow our instructions to the letter.

You will withdraw one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars from your account. One hundred thousand will be in one hundred dollar bills, and the remaining eighteen thousand and twenty doll bills make sure that you bring an adequate size at a show to the bank. When you get home, you will put the money in a Brown paper bag.

I will call you between eight and ten A M tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhAusting, so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you a to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence an earlier pick up of your daughter.

Any deviation of the instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper barrier. The two gentle man watching over your daughter do not particularly like you, so I advise you not to provoke them speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police F, B, I, eta will result in your daughter being be headed if we kept you talking to a straight dog.

SHE dies if you will learn bank authorities. SHE dies. If the money is in any way marked or tempered with SHE dies, you will be scanned for electrical devices.

And if any are found, SHE dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned that we are familiar with the enforcement, countermeasures and tactics. You stand a ninety nine percent chance of killing your daughter.

If you try to outstart us, follow our instructions, and you stand in one hundred percent chance of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrushy as well as the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain.

join. You are not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, john.

Use that good southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now. john. Victory. S, B, T, C.

So, okay, so that's the letter that they're working away. And what we know is the reams had alarm system, but they hadn't said at the night before or actually even in a long time, not since that had gone off accidentally and scared the living pants of job. Ana and her older brother burka, by the way, is nine at this point, and still a sleep upstairs in his room, according to mom and debt.

Now they say that they had checked on him once when they realized the german I was missing. But once they saw that he was okay, they wanted to just let him sleep. I like i'm assuming they probably just didn't want him to worry till they had a Better idea what was going on and like what we're going to do, like once I knew that there was going to be health and they would worry about IT.

So officer french does this quick scheme of the house, and I say, quick, but this puppy was over six thousand and one, two thousand square feet, had like fifteen rooms, four different floors, if you include the basement. But french does this quick look through. He doesn't see anything that jumps out.

His report says there were no signs of four century or a struggle, and obviously no signs of missing six year old. So he moved to instructing another officer, started writing bog to control the scene. And A, I don't know when raging box showed up, but you'll see more people kind of start like flooding in.

And b, controlling the scene is a loose term in this story, and something bother. Police will get roasted for down the line, because within fifteen minutes of frenches arrival, those friends that pati get calls starts showing up braille. And fleet White had been their first call, followed by john and barber.

funny. And somehow the family priest gets contacted along the way. And like one by one, these people are showing up and they're by, like, seven thirteen.

Now, well, je M C made calls to try in line up that hundred and eight thousand dollars that the kidnapper er had asked for more and more people were showing up to so they had victim advocates that came to the house there were finally some detectives that got there by like eight ten that morning, namely Linda aunt who was charged with managing the situation. Now what john told me that he didn't know at the time were that these weren't seasoned homicide or missing person's detectives. What the detectives didn't know at the time was that this was an a missing person's case.

As the clock tick, every moment in the house was tense programs. Jane's nine year old brother had been woken up and removed from the home. At this point, their friend fleet White, who was one of the people pati had called come over.

He had taken back back to their house and while pasi cried in one room with her friends by her side, john was in another, taking instructions from detective are about what to do if the kid d call and he's like going through the male. He told me to see if there's any other communications from the, he told me that he was in just like do, do, do mode, like action mode. He thought that if he kept his with about less the same, he all is used.

If I keep my witts about me, then if i'm smart, like I could still actually get my door. I figure this right now. Plenty of people had been looking around the house without finding anything. But john wanted to keep moving. So at some point that morning, exact time, a little fuzzy tivy, but at some point that morning, he went down to the basement.

which this is a point that border police gets roasted on, right, like people are just all over the house, containing the crowd out of, like what is actually a crime?

O is a while they had blocked off job in asier, like five hours after detective french got to the house. But everything else was like a free for all like habit. Seems like people were all over the place. Nothing was off limits. Cept js room, except real right?

And there's nothing that stands out about her. Real right?

no. I mean, like, so her covers were pulled back like someone had got her out of bed. There's some stuff that becomes interesting a little bit later, which I can get into, but nothing that really stands out in there IT looks like a room that a kid had just kind of truly gotten, like pluck out from the middle of the night to get back to.

So john goes to the basement at some point that morning when he did is one thousand nine hundred ninety seven interview. His best guess was like, maybe was sometime around or before ten A M. But he goes down. He doesn't report finding anything to detective arn or any of the other officers. Now no one made no of the time when ten o clock came and went and there was no communication from the kidner.

Like they said in the note, there were calls throughout the morning, I mean, at least three, according to detective arms report, and each time john would run the phone, he made the end of the call, but each time he was just some well, meaningful friend checking in. And like a word was spreading at this point. Now, Linda on't kept paging for back up.

SHE had kicked a good number of people out of the house by this point, officers, the victim advocates, but all of the family friends were still there. And IT was a hard scene to control. But page after page, SHE was getting no response and when he tried to phone in, SHE was told that everyone was in a meeting that's SHE said in her good morning amErica interview so it's just she's not getting the help that he needs and as more time pass, Linda aren't felt like he needed to keep Jones mind occupied by twelve thirty.

He makes a note that he seems to be isolating himself and just kind of staring like, so you like I got to give him something to do. After a conversation with one of the family friends, fleet White, he is suggest to john that excluding jane's room, he should checked house top to baLanced if there is anything even missing. John took the instruction to heart, but he decided in that the search bottom to top at one P.

M, he went for the door of the basement with fly close behind him. And within five minutes everything was chaos. There was screams, fleet was bounding up the stairs, and detective aren't made IT to the door. Wait in time to see john coming up the final few steps, like holding jump day by her waste.

Her body was already stiff with rigger, her head was turned to one side and her arms were above her head with some kind of like White string or poor broke thing hanging from one of her race. Detective aren't told john, you like her job, anne, down by the front door, SHE said that her lips were artists that he knew. He was said, but SHE still checks for a anyway, but he was called the touch when he touches her. So lend to aren't new zometa body to another spot, the first floor. And john asked to cover her up with a blanket.

which SHE let him do, which is more contamination.

This is like the worst case scenario here, because it's not just a blanket like john held her at some point, like he's a lying on the floor. And when patsy comes into the room, SHE laid on top of her while she's trying painting. Literally, SHE is like praying to jesus, like asking him.

I think the line is like, you raise lazars. Like, please raise my baby. So you, dear, pointed, you have all of this contamination happening, but linder aren't called nine one one, telling them, like, I need an ambuLance.

I need a coroner. Like, whatever. Like the delay is getting people here, that you have to get people here. Now, SHE called again when they still hadn't come a few minutes later, and then again after he saw an ambuLance drive past the house. So this is like the mercies law of crime scenes.

Everything that could go wrong was going, but now is time for everyone to get out, ramseys and friends included. So wall search warm was being obtained for the house, and job was sent off for autopsied. Tecture ves tried to speak more with the family.

One detective was sent to go talk to burk, who basically just told him, like, everything in our house is in Normal, like our parents arent abusive. There were any arguments on or leading up to Christmas day. So like nothing meaningful from him.

And that eve, england are. And another detective went to speak with john ramsay, they were saying at a friend's house. And by the time lady got there, there were even more people that had come to be with them.

They had more friends. Even the family doctor, doctor buff, was there. And sometimes he got the family doctor. Sometimes he's called oma pediatric and might be like a little bit both. He gave in pathy of volume.

So lindy didn't see her when he came by, but he did get to talk to john for about forty minutes. And it's worth noting that he talked to john during her time at the home is wet like. So SHE and others had gotten the initial story of the day like, or is leading up to geometries death.

And john points to this fact a lot when I talk to him, because if you know this story, you'll know that a big part of the narrative is the fact that the family, they say they didn't CoOperate, they didn't talk to police for a long time. But john points to this and he says, look, yes, we did. We talk to them in our home and in our friends' home.

And that is true. And IT is also true that they stopped CoOperating after that forty minute meeting. And here's why. So according to john francy, he told me he had gotten a call within the first like dr. g.

We're talking to twenty six, twenty seven from the person he told me who ran his ajr at his company and they told him like, hey, I have this inside source telling me that the police are looking at you in athi. For this, you need to lawyer up. Well, advice, take IT because of the friends who were sitting alongside jon ry.

And see that evening when Linda had come during that 4 minute conversation was a guy named mike bo。 Mike was john, rim's e's corporate council at his company. So when police had left that night, like after that forty minute thing, they suggested a formal sit down with the ranges.

Obviously, tensions were high, as I was currently incapacity, and the majority of their interactions had been when they thought that somebody was obvious person. Like there was plenty more questions that needed to be asked by police, which I agree with, like at least everything that made IT into the reports about the conversations they had in those early days when they were speaking. It's pretty surface level.

I mean, we get some like immediate people that they suspect does anything in the notes stand out to them? Like who has keys to the house? eeta.

But if they were going to find out who killed jumping, they were gonna to go a few layers deeper. So Linda suggest, like, let's do this. Sit down at the station on the twenty eight.

But either in that moment or maybe later, it's not totally clear from liners or IT seems like might put the cables on that and was IT like we got a rule for a reason, right? Like always get a lawyer. But this is the beginning of a decades long battle between the rams and I think police question mark.

But like who is behind what, in this case, as you octo sy, is pretty convoluted. So the rams es, don't go talk to police on the twenty eight. They do have a closed memorial service that day. Boor jba a in colorado before they leave .

on what I knew happened.

but he was that soon. yes. So john amy says that they wanted to go back to ely and a where their support system was.

I mean, IT only just moved to border like a handful of years before this, like a ninety one, because his company had gotten bought out by lucky. So he says that he still thought of a lana as home, like they always had planned to move back. And like, that's where they were planning to.

Barrie jambon a is the same cemetery as her older half r who had died in a car accident a few years before. And interestingly, about his company like that bought access graphics. Lucky john raves about them, like, you'll see that, and I sit down with him.

But one of the things that they did after job ane's death was they had offered john a company plane to take him to atlantic. So the company plane takes into atlanta, twenty nine thirty eth goes by. Thirty first is japanese funeral, and then the first, all media help break in a move that john ramsey himself later called a mistake he impacted, decide to go on CNN.

I feel like this like the one of the most like famous hearts of this case that you can like. Now they even had a formal sit down with police, but they have this sit down with the media. And IT rubs people all of the wrong ways. He rams you found the note was a hand written up three pages.

I didn't I didn't read the whole thing I I just gotten. We were runner. IT was the death of Christmas and we were going to get visiting.

And IT was quite early in the morning and i'd gotten dressed in on my way to catch you, make some coffee. And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas. And I always come down that staircase and immediate, the first one down, and the note was lying across .

the three .

pages, across the run of one of the stair threads. And IT was kind of dimly lid was this very early in morning and I started to read IT and I was addressed to john, said mr. Ramsay and IT said, we have your daughter and I you know, IT is was IT was registering and I I may have gotten through another seat like we have your daughter and I I don't know if I got any further than that and I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed up in her door and SHE was not in her and I scream for joan and john, you've subsequently .

read the the note. Was there anything in there the struck you in any sense?

Well, no, I mean, I read IT very fast. I was out of my mind and IT said, don't call the police.

you know, look that .

type of thing and topic equally immediately.

And I think I will .

anthy the house a bit. We went to check our son to time, please, and we just were, were this frantic, the police said .

couple of days ago to assure other residents of older, there is no killer on the Lewis here you can be assure everything has under control. Do you believe is someone outside your home .

there is a killer on the way? I don't know who IT is. I don't know if it's a he or SHE that if I were a resident of border, I will tell my friends to keep keep your baby club to you.

There's 什么 呢？ 片。 You know, amErica has just been hurt so deeply with them, this, the tragic things that have happened, so Young .

women who drove her .

children into the water. And we don't know what happened with the O. J. simpsons.

And I mean, amErica is suffering because they they have lost faith that in the american family, we are a Christian, god fearing family. We love our children. We would do anything for our children.

So this interview that they did was actually a lot quicker. Then I had my head. I don't know why, like growing up, I thought this was like this like long special where they get statements yeah a statements about everything. But I feel like the part that you heard about the note was like honestly, the most detail that we got I think in total ends of being like I think I heard the CNN a minute thing, but there were other like little things here and there, but mostly overall, IT was the ramsey's opportunity to let the public know that they were unhappy with the direction of the investigation. They didn't think that the bolder police department had the right resources allocated to the case, and so they were going to be putting together their own investigative team and .

offering up reward. So did you ask john why they agree to do something like this?

Well, just be clear. They didn't agree to like some incoming ask like john had a friend who knew the president of CNN. So they really made this interview happy.

Oh, but john said something. This was one of the more interesting parts of our interview about why they to do this in the first place and less. And I have heard this guy talk a lot.

I've read his books. I seen the interviews that he's done. I mean, his life story is drilled into him like word for work.

He has had a lifetime of people probably asking him the same questions over and over. And he gives the same answers over and over because he is consistent. And in the past, what i've seen or read is that he talks about how his friends thought that they should go on.

They should tell bare version of events that they should defend themselves. And what he told me, who still was, that his friends were the ones really pushing the interview. But the reason behind why was different. okay. So in our sit down, john ramsey told me that his friends wanted him to go on CNN to protect border.

What does that even mean?

great. I asked IT and I didn't really get a totally clear answer. And this is truly where when you're done with the episode telling people you have to go watch the interview with him, it's on youtube.

He just keep saying that bolter was this weird place like this bubble where reality was outside make sense and I don't know in talking to them and like seeing stuff that they ve done the past IT doesn't seem like they like the place all that much. I am IT was a far cry from the conservative south where they have come from. Either way, i'm not sure that they nailed the assignment. Remember, like taxi fully still did like a hydra kid hya wife would without a killer like grown ministry y's kind of things.

So like wasn't all pro order. I've always wondered a little if SHE went off book in that interview. You can kind of tell she's still pretty medicated. Like.

yeah and listen, like people have all of the lots on both parents, but lots of thoughts on pathy at the time. And here do not say I don't think that, that interview is a fair one to read into too much like behavior on camera wise just because I mean, you're talking a week out for when their daughter was murdered. I don't know that I could even sit up straight like at that point like if if IT were me.

And so IT might be one of the first time that patchy was up, right? I mean, he even said that like in those first few days, he was so out of IT that john and like her friends were literally having to feed her and to beaver her, help her go the bathroom. So the minor, like IT might might like throw this out the window.

But I do think we need to talk about the substance of that interview. The words matter, especially when we're going to get into some of the statements, like the early statements from them about what happened on december twenty fifty and december twenty six. Now like I said, there wasn't a lot of substance in what we got, but there were the first signs of cracks, at least compared to what's in officer frenches report from the twenty six and detective arm's report, which technically SHE actually hadn't written up yet when they go on CNN. SHE also writes up hurs a week from that on january eight. So there's also know how much is lost in her memory in that time between writing.

And so were there are a lot of inconsistencies in the little that we did.

no. So the only one that really pops out is when that he was talking about seeing the letter and then going to Johnny's room to see if he was there. In some of the early report, there is a note that mentioned her actually going and checking japanese room first and then going down the stairs and finding the note.

But there are no follow up questions like after this, like interview is over. And despite what they seemingly told CNN and they told the reporter, because at the time they are like, we are going to go to work with police that were going to anything we can to CoOperate and help find our daughters killer. But that doesn't actually happen OK.

Why not?

I know. So it's what eats people alive. No one can understand why they wouldn't just sit down with police and go through the facts that day in in the day's leading up to IT as well, like the intimate details of their lives, like there is so much that police just don't know at this point. And again, I will not. I do see that that first day or two, everyone still trying to figure out everything there, but there they did top.

If there is a huge gap in what police know about their lives from that and I get IT like, I want to shake them too and be like, just like help them, help you like even I don't remember Polly class her story, but her dad and actually speaks out about this and he's like, I don't get IT like, I did everything I could when my daughter was burned. I beg them to give me a polygraph so that they could move beyond me. But john will just tell you, like, til he is a blue in the face, that they were following the advice of the lawyers that they had.

And why have these lawyers, if you're not gonna listen to them? And by the way, their lawyer game has been up. By this point. There are no longer just relying on mike buying them to give them some advice according to john, might connect him in athi to a law firm that could handle a more like criminal matter. So the law firm is called, hadn't Morgan.

And for men who like, by the way, if you google them, like in good to news, like what pops up is like interesting clients, I was like, go, okay, but let's see there, here or there. The point is that these new lawyers are like the beacons. They have big connections, not just to the D.

S. Office, but to colorado politics as a whole. And so these lawyers passing, enjoy each have their own, by the way, like their each being looked at as a suspect, that they have to have their own lawyers.

Their lawyers are basically like, listen, we know how this works. The police are nearly focused in on you. They are gonna want to just like get you in a room and drill you until you break down.

which is why you have a lawyer in the room with you. But you need to go into the room.

You need to be there to be in the room in. Listen, like I, the lawyers always plan to be in the room by they were particular about the conditions of getting in that realm. They wouldn't come to terms with police on on what that was like.

When I talked to john, he was like, they wanted to come IT like late at night, and like is like, they want you to be tired. They you do. They know we're not sleeping.

And for fail, we offered to have them come in our home. And they were like, no, only at the police station. So they go back and forth trying to, like, come to terms with the conditions of this interview.

And that doesn't happen like they don't agree to something until April of nineteen, nineteen ninety seven. That is when police get the first real opportunity to sit down and in. And then after that, he would be another year before their next sit down.

That one didn't happen until june of one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. And then there is just one more in the year, two thousand. Now, in all of that time, I was a media frenzy.

I mean, in an era of tablet rain supreme, next in line only to literal queen, princess Diana, like, I don't know if you remember, we talked about this being our origin story, but IT was all over all the time you could not go to the grow everywhere and not see her face. And IT was all over the news even in a time when, like, we weren't paying attention to news. And I think IT like a garnered so much attention because I was this, like, perfect storm of Christmas time, a beautiful child, a rich family.

And then I I put the pageant stuff on top of all of that. Like, there were not only a tha of images of jamba, but being sold the tablets and newspapers and gazin es, because these photos ers had so much footage of her, but the pictures they had to her were of this little girl made to look like a Young woman. And people had a few day with IT and even though there was plenty of talk of people asking the questions of whether or not the pad put dambisa in the path of someone dangerous, which yeah the conversations always kind of came back to the parents yes, they made hurt those patents, which the family says is an inaccurate statement there.

They know this is something you d like to do with her mom, like pati. I was a former misween, Virginia, but all of the tables were all about the family. So like the family was right in saying that they were up to get them.

yes, but like which team first straight? Like it's a very chicken and the egg situation. If they talk to the police and the place that cleared them there, would there be the tablet that put them in the center of things or are in the center of things?

I definitely fed IT like again, I think. But IT started so early, surprisingly early. But yeah, I think IT definitely fed the month to be like they're not talking to police like all they left colorado, another in George.

And things don't get Better like the more time that passed, the more contentious things got not just between the ranges and the police, but also between the police and the days office. Like things are being lead seemingly from every which way. I mean, he was so bad that at one point her auto xy photos were lead to the globe, and those customers actually planned t to print those autopsy photos.

And it's like the police, they had become convinced, ed, that the ramps were involved. And so IT actually came out in a deposition at one point, the years down the line that the police were giving information to reporters to try and put external pressure on the rams is hoping that they would crack like they couldn't do the thing they wanted to do inside of the interrogation room. So they were going to have the media.

So at this point, sounds like police are relying on other details like not just we don't like other families acting to support all these suspicions that they have .

correct because of during this time, like things are getting leak. Like I said, you have the police department. Things are coming out of the D.

S office to the ramp is had their own teams. So like who is leaking what? Like, IT is a messy, messy game. But let me actually give you a little bit the way of the land of some of the step that we were learning in the time after Jamie's death, i'm gonna go into her autopsy.

Think as a big party that before I do that, I think we just need to talk about some of the physical evidence at the house, the observations that were made, because I think all of that leg was informing policy opinion on the situation very really on. So one of the big ones um one of the ones that the ramps you say kind of like defines the case is that police just didn't like how they were acting. Lda arn, i'll talk about her probably a lot in this episode SHE, the first detected there that day.

And he does this like one really infamous interview with good morning amErica in one thousand ninety nine. And the interviewer asked her like, how was john that morning and he just keeps saying corda and he was like, okay, but cord, what does that mean? It's the only word was a coral quora.

So SHE didn't like how he was acted. Now, john tell me, like I told everyone, like I was trying to keep my witz about me, like I don't like pati was deeply upset, like SHE was just in the room with her. She's lying down and she's crying. He's like I had to let .

go into action exactly.

I am truly, I understand a little bit. I look at me in my husband and we're very different that way where I think eric would be the one like in the chair crying lung on the four and i'm going to be like, okay, i've got to get the money. I'm going to get this like lining everything up to be like what can I do to fix the situation?

Can't yeah john .

is a CEO of a company like I see him. I see him going in that way. But the other thing that and talks about is that they're like in separate rooms the whole time.

So we just found that strange. And people have like weight in over the years. I put their own spin on, and I don't I don't know that you could say one way or another that means anything like I think people could say conclusively. But SHE just felt IT was strange that, like patties in one room, crying again, john is like over here and action mode.

but in this giant house.

in a giant house, but I can SHE expected them to be unit, come yet a unit, and comforting each other. But that's not what you saw that day, which I think played into the belief that first day, the other thing that gets talked about a time, and that SHE really, and they think office of different and and a lot of people they are that day honed in on, was the fact that so john has just been like freshly showered when he had just gone out.

The shower went, passing me that nine one one call and so he he's fresh in the morning. SHE was like fresh makeup, but she's also wearing the same clothes that she's born the night before. So they say, depends on who you talk to you, right? Like they thought I was really weird that at five something in the morning, she's got full here and makeup, but wearing the same cloth.

I don't know what to make of that. I i'll tell you completely honestly. I went to dinner with john amy and then interviewed him the next day.

And I were the exact fit and until later, throwing on the same thing to me is not a big deal. Everyone says, oh, well, you know, pass you is so into her image. And like there's no isi would have done that they were about to get on a flight to go to michigan.

So maybe you just like, I like the holidays.

like I would wear the same yeah, the makeup, SHE says, and he is from the south, was born west rgi, ia. They spent some time lana, she's like my mother drilled in me, you do not leave the house like unlessoned li done up, which I like. I met people like that too.

So but people are ready to be like, you just never had the chance to go to bed that night. And so like IT was odd to the people there that first morning. Now, I also told you that first responders, they didn't notice any sign of force entry in their initial reports, but there was a broken window in the basement.

which I don't get how that just missed. Not everyone did.

Miss IT. I'm going to have to come back to that. We get into people's like stories and statements for now what we need to know.

Like the window was broken, but IT wasn't broken recently. So there wasn't glass all over and john had apparently broke in IT over the summer like this. Like, no, that's why there's no glass.

C I broke IT when I got locked out of the house. They thought they had asked their housekeep s husband something I got to fix IT. But there must have been some kind of confusion or this communication, the window didn't get fixed.

So I think they ve ve IT as like, oh, this is a you know that means the perfect thing to like if someone worth scoping out their house to say, like here's a broken window, you can easily get access to the home. But IT wasn't something that was done necessarily by an intrude. Or and the other thing that they point you, there's also this hard shell suitcase that was supposed to have been right, the window that they're thinking someone used to maybe get in or get out.

And then there's the note, the round is to this point, like more than the broken window, they point to the no as proof that jambi e was kidnap. They're basically like living, if IT looks like a duck, if IT quacks like a ducks, like it's probably a freking duck, like we have a ransom know we probably have a kidnapping. But there were things about this note that even really early on, police were finding odd.

The first thing is like the end of concluding that the note was written on pasties, no pack with a pen from inside the house, like, I guess, john impact, each had, like their own, no books for phone messages or whatever. But they determine that IT was from passes, one that the paper came from. And what's interesting is that the pad of paper and the pen were put back like they were put away, that IT wasn't just like left out, but they were really put back in different places.

Now when they'd made this connection about IT parties and note pad, they also found out that there was a first attempt at writing the note before the writer started over. So there is a page that starts out, mr. And mrs.

And then there's like a line like it's onna start ramsey, but that's IT like they call this everyone calls IT the print no but I just says mr. mr. r. And we know the final know is just adresse to now it's already a little suss that this thing was written with items inside the house because I think whatever I start thinking is like this person didn't come prepared. Like usually in kidnap p in cases you see them, if they're gonna, leave a note that's .

like something they come with. If you're going to have time for ransom.

you should probably have the ransom and and if not, when they look at like the the, the sheer amount of words here, two half pages, I think that I heard someone say they would take someone like twenty minutes to write this thing. They're like, when would they have done that? Now the ramseys think that this person, truder, snuck into their house while they were at a Christmas in her earlier that night was exciting.

Their laying and weight for everyone till I go to bed and they said, like, oh, we think IT was written then, which gives the person like our ample amount of time. But IT also like doesn't fit with a lot of like what we will come to know if the goal is to just like get her out of the house. We know that he is found with everything done to her inside the house. So if you prevent that note, like something about that doesn't add up, but then if you wrote a .

note afterward, that also doesn't make sense because why would you like hope that there's a notebook and a pen readily available for you to in twenty minutes?

Like so what was the point of the ransom note that foreign der, if they were going to leave her deceased in the basement and beyond? Like when the note was written, the contents of the note was super weird to me. So for starters, it's like really focused on john. I didn't as you're reading and I know you pricing ilian times, everything is about john .

in his business and even his role.

And it's like, john, make sure you get enough. Like sleep, john, make sure you do this, john, your dog. Like which in if IT is about john in the business, then like the know the rams is have said, there's like the sexual component to japanese death that we're to get into if it's about that and that part doesn't lineup. And then like I said, there's a lot of in the note of dimensions like make sure you get some sleep, make sure there's like this weird sense of like .

if you want her earlier, just get the money earlier.

figure this out. IT has really strong the way that IT focuses on them and like I don't cares the right word, but it's like if this isn't IT doesn't make sense, like nothing about the notes make sense. And then there are all of these quotes that when people have had gone through and really like broken IT down, all of these quotes from movies where kidnappings happened.

And so is this like, is this a movie but shot me. Surely someone's not like going through watching much and movies as the right, as if they wrote this in the house in a couple years, whatever IT is. And finally, no one holds what the S.

B. T. C is like. There are theories out was about what IT could be. I've heard saved by the cross. I've heard rumors that where johnes he was stationed in the navy in the Philippines, that there was .

like some IT takes some military faction, china.

which then they're like always at for in faction, but like that's never been proven. So people can have and honestly, like again, the other people can come up with like is pretty wild, lots of wild theories, but in almost thirty years, there is no conclusive proof about what that is connected to. And the other thing we don't know is this amount of money.

It's so specific.

one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars hundred.

one hundred and fifty like and split two in like different bills.

And john was like, I think they were kind .

to load IT they get to us for .

more you ask for like I don't know, like a hundred eighteen. So why not half a million, a million dollars, ten million dollars like.

or even lower, like a long number of, like, a hundred thousand dollars like the eighteen?

The eighteen is so weird.

throws me off so badly.

And that is kind of almost like the S B T. C thing where people are like a it's a bible vert, like it's a prover or something one hundred and like you can anything with like the number, honesty, eighteen and the one hundred forty people will like drill in on the thing that I think most people believe, or at least they think is like the most relevant information, is that IT comes out and enjoy passing the early days are like there's no significance to that number for us like we don't know what IT is. Police end up finding out that john rem, his bonus of that year for his company was one hundred .

and eighty .

thousand dollars.

Like some change, the weird.

One hundred and eighty thousand dollars and he says, yeah IT maybe that's IT the interesting thing so I think get to mixed up a lot like for people, is that there are like all that was Christmas is everyone must have known IT actually was issued to him, he says in like january or february one thousand ninety six of eight in the whole year. But he said that that bonus was like a line item on all of his pay stabs. So if somebody were like going through documents in their house, like they would have seen that and I ask him evidence of somebody who's like going to documents in your house and he said he says no but that doesn't mean that that didn't happen. And it's kind like his best theory of if it's this number, this might be how someone .

would have found that exact.

yes.

specific number.

The police would say, well, no, to find that someone in your home, yes. So they have all these words of in the note. And then they start getting handwriting samples from people in the family.

Try to find out rope this. They got a few actually from pali, and everyone is ruled out except pi that be very clearly. They don't say IT was her handwriting. They just say that SHE can't be excluded or they can't rule her out, which is like a very .

important distinction. And the language itself felt like her, if I remembering like her views right, like it's kind of flowers over the top, like they link towards like hands .

and who that's the .

word like that stuff that he would .

say though not words like SHE invented. Like lots of people know those words. But there is this like strange just to position in the writing where some of the words are actually like spelled wrong, and then you have words like atta ha with .

like the little like marah.

So they're like o someone must have like spell other words wrong intentionally, which kind of fed into this idea of of this note in real. Like there was some kind of staging of sun sort, but like fun fact. Like I also spell the word at a shi .

wrong when I was ready.

like this story out so like I would be flour if you haven't words that are. And like I, there are some basic S I, I can you and .

I say that you be able to tell the difference. If you and I rock like the same things, we would use completely different.

yeah. yeah. So to get back to IT, though, there are a lot of strange things about the no, but there are other random things around the house that if you really want to go down on this rabbit hall, you can spend IT.

So like, I mean, there is a baseball bat outside. There is a rope in another bedroom of the house. But the important, none of forensically linked to the crime, at least air hasn't been to the pub light.

So for the sake of keeping people with me, we still got a lot, a lot of room here. I got a lot of a episode to go. I wanted move to the auto xie.

So when japan is down, SHE had what is described as a god like device tied around her neck using White like roper court, or some kind of like substance, and then the broken off handle of a paint brush. Now go grow whatever like. That is the word that gets used all the time.

It's the only reason I know what .

that is like with this case, but IT actually isn't a grow that got use. I don't know if that matters, but IT feels like with this case, the devils in the details. So for accuracy, say what they're actually, at least when I was like looking IT up a gara is like some kind of like string, cord, rope, chain, whatever.

And I like to candles on the end. What was actually used in jane's case was a White cord that was tied around her neck. IT was fascine in the back, and IT was fascine to that broken end of the paint brush.

And I think the thinking was that, or if people are still trying to call IT a goat, is that maybe you could like twist the paint brush and that would tighten IT. But investors said that he was tight, more like a news then IT was any kind of government. And particularly they've made note that the not weren't especially complicated.

Now the brush itself is from inside the house like a lot of the other suffer finding. And we find out that IT came from pasties, art supplies. So SHE had been taking painting classes at the time at the local university. So SHE had this like Carrier bucket thing full of stuff like that. Now, what wasn't obvious in the ramzy house that morning that he was found, but what would become clear when her autopsies done is that, along with having this cord around her nap, SHE also had suffered severe blunt force trauma to her head. Like there, quite literally, when you see the pictures, there's like a chunk of her school that is like caved in and then is like a inch crack across her school as well.

So I was never really clear, like which one of these things was a cause of death.

So yes, so the autopsy report says IT was just a combination.

Do they know which one was first? I don't know.

So I think to ETC first, you need to do that. The rope around her neck, like if you see the pictures that got, at least it's like embedded in there, like I mean, looks like somebody truly tied IT. So but IT actually wasn't tight, really tight. So like just like the bindings I have mention that were reload on her wrist, the cord, I think initially around her neck probably was as well because in the autopsy report, there is a note that even though she's got the external wounds, there is no internal damage to her neck, which you would see if there was like severe strangulation, if that makes sense. So it's possible that maybe her body, like, got swolen after death, or like, as he was dying, like, and I made IT look so much tired.

but he was definitely alive when that happened.

yes. So, yes. So SHE definitely did get choked in some way because we have external signs of her being chocolate, that we've got abortions. I've got particular emerged on her neck and her eyes and her face.

which all that makes sense. But I still not seeing working first.

I think I like really the only two options are either SHE was being lightly, but again, the choking was not the thing, those gna killer, because we don't see those internal injuries. He was being lightly chopped and he still has the corner around networks taken off and then she's hit and then it's put back on or like that is just left on or she's hit in the head and then IT is put on.

And if she's swelling, that caused the child because there is a really are only two options either way, the head in the head was so severe that even the light choking, whether was someone doing IT or just the cord being on IT, contributed to her death in conjunction with the head wound. So there seems to be a consensus from a number of people that the eviction happened like forty five minutes after the hit. And IT really is like authority ties who believe this on the ramsey camp, they had this investigation.

u. Smith, who really reaches a different conclusion. He thinks he was hit in the head after he was choked, and another choking was done as part of a al act. Now, I mentioned this briefly, but when john was bringing jamba e upstairs, like when he first found her in the basement there with them about like White cord, some of that around her neck is like around her rest of her hand, just one of them. And he says that they would like are they were like bound together, but like, I think it's only left on one and it's pretty loose, like the not themselves were loose, like a lot of people who have looked at .

this like I .

would actually right. And the people who look at this like a staging, they'll say, this is more proof that IT wasn't to actually restrain her. This was something done after the fact, but could do not have gotten lose another way.

We look at a scene that we know is so severely contaminated. SHE wasn't left in the place that he was found. I don't know. Now he also had a piece of tape over her mouth.

And when john founder, he'd actually ripped that off and he leaves IT in the basement, he brings her upstairs, and it's left in the basement, along with the White blanket that was covering her. And then one of the things that I never knew in this case was that, along with the White blanket, there was a barbi night out. And I don't know what that means, but all account is not what he was wearing that evening. IT doesn't seem like IT was soil no enough if it's like clean, dirty, like was IT did .

they go to her room to get like where.

like shuttle there? Maybe with the body that they rought like, nobody knows it's just wear peace that I can't quite make sense of, but is A A barby nike ground on their tail. So the night, GUI artist said, wasn't what he was wearing.

What he was wearing was a White shirt with a silver star. And he had warned that shirt to a Christmas dinner that they went to the night before. That's where they were before they all came home and went to bed.

SHE was also wearing White, long down pants, and under those he was wearing a pair of underwear. And this is like such a weird part of the case. The underway that he was wearing was a sized twelve, which were like my non kid people .

usually like the yeah in the many .

was like a pretty average like height, weight for her age. So like six year old to be in twelve underwear, they were, they even said, like they were like taking off, closing into your autopsy. Like they were huge on her. And the other interesting thing is that her long dance and her underwear were both stained with urine, mostly on the front of the garment, which indicates to me that he was probably lying face down when her blood was empty. Because I think it's especially important when you think about the fact that that cord was tied around her neck, was tied in the back.

Did they find you in anywhere else in the house if he was laying down? And i've seen the pictures of the underwear in the pants and they are saggers ated if she's line down, m her blood of that much to just like to trench her clothes IT .

should be someone. There should be a little puddle somewhere. Theoretically, yes, but I can't save share based on the stuff that we have. I told you all I need a lot of the stuff that we have is because stuff got lead, not because IT doesn't like there isn't other other stuff that they could this. I can tell you that the sheet that were on her bed were not stained.

There is some context that maybe there was a possible ursin on the carpet outside of the wine cellar room that she's actually found in. But I can't source that to police documents. I don't know that trail and of course, folder police department, the prosecutors office, like they won't talk to us episode.

So all in all, I don't actually know. But IT feels like we should be able to determine where in the house that happened. And the war that happened feels really important, like if we can find where that means, that someone cleaned IT up, which, like this whole other element to this, all writing really confusing case.

Now, the other things that could discovered that are of interest are in her auto. Xy, so there was badge inal trauma, but not from penetration. Like there IT was more like an earth, like the skin cells.

And what they found is, I believe there are traces of the actual broken int. brush. What they determined is that that paint brush had been inserted.

Interestingly though, there's like that that they know happened like at the time of her death, but the autopsy also notes some wounds are some trauma that is more chronic. And chronic doing mean it's happening for a very, very, very long time over over the chronic means before like that. And so there's at least some evidence that to ten days before her death something else happened, but you can't say what. And anyone who tries to say what, we do not know. But there is some vag inal trauma to this Young girl that happened seven to ten days before her death.

so they're not sure if he was abused.

No one can say that like .

the I ve .

definitely there have been a number of experts who came in like the balder police had this case. They they brought in a number. I think I was like five or six experts that said that based on what they soft on the autopsy ort like, they would categorize that as abuse.

What we also find out in all of this time is song to say, the autopsy y, but we find out that job I had been having issues with soiling herself. So he was, I mean, pati so had like pulling pse in the house. He was so wedding the bed, even soiling the bed and party.

You would say, like, listen like that this happens. Kids have accident. SHE said that her stepped, ordered. One of john's from his previous marriage did the same thing till he was like a apparently work at the same thing. So Patty was like the just kids. But people who do want to say that he was abuse will point to this as, like, more evidence of that, but not like there is no definitive proof that he was being sexually abused over time leading up to there's clearly something happened like you like in the to ten days and this, but we don't know what that is like so much in this case. We will never know what was happening in that house on that night or the days before, or I was so many things outside of the home too.

I also want to make a clear that if there was abuse, which I think there's evidence of, and is something that I talked to john about actually in our interview, I was like the proof is like IT feels like the proof is there, but that doesn't IT has to be a family that's like he came in to contact with so many people. So I know I just went on on on on, but the short that I of SHE was a used a lot of experts who believe he had to go back to the evidence that there are some fibers that are found as well. They are found on the sticky side of the tape that was on her mouth.

Some that are found like in the ligature, like not we got her hands or her neck, but there's some founding the leg and some that we're on the White blanket as well. And they are consistent, the police say, with a jacket that pi was wearing the night of the twenty fifth. Additionally, there is one mention of some black fibers that were found in her underwear that they say we're consistent with a wool's sweater of john.

But this is a super important caveat. This is only thrown out in passes two thousand interview. And we know, like the person interview here says this, we know that you can lie. So I don't know if this actually is true as I like, it's not anywhere else as fact. I don't know if like the fibers working in the underway, I don't know if if they were, if they actually got tied to john, I have no idea. And the family lawyer actually makes note later on a different one, he says that like just saying those things excuse the picture because he's like a when you code fibers, the shirt fibers, he's like, how many other things did you try and test to match IT? First of all, and you are not even talking about all the other fibers that .

were found that aren't try to any R S. I could be a lot in there. And also people do laundry .

yeah and he's like to say those couple of things really excuse record, he says so you got a lot of the physical evidence. But like the thing I think everyone wants to talk about when we talk about this case, there is foreign DNA. exactly. So we've got foreign DNA under her nails, her right and her left in her underwear and on the core around her neck. We know Robin was the main contributor in all of IT.

In one ninety seven, there was an indication of an unknown contributor, but the testing was super basic in yeah so basic that what I can tell from like what i've said is that we're dealing with and a that is off out of like multiple markers. So they were like far from a real profile that we could do anything with back then. But one of the things that really frustrated the family and made them feel like this was targeted against them is that no one was sharing that.

They were ruled out for that in those early days, which seems pretty significant, like everyone is looking for an excuse of IT almost feels they were trying like ride IT off, like, how can I still be them and not be this, instead of just being like, oh, like, was there someone else in the house? Like, all put your theory aside, like the question is, was there someone else in the house? And I think that's the question everyone should be asking. And then the final thing that we have, as far as evidence, at least, that i'm going to get into is the pineapple.

I was waiting free to get to the pineapple.

So the pipe le, there are remnants of pipe le found in her stomach if you know, you know, if you don't, that's why you have me. But to understand why the pineapple becomes important, like or why it's a big deal, we have to go back ward a little bit.

So now that you have the physical evidence like the stuff that we're working with, most of which was getting, again, I remind you, getting leaked like little bit by little bit to the public over weeks and months all during the time when the ramsey aren't layer up, I want to go into the actual statements that we get. So the stuff that police say that they were told on december twenty six, the statements given to authorities by john and pati in the months after that fateful day, and even in the years that follow. So there are two reports that have been leaded from first responders that I found.

One is from officer french. He is the first guy that shows up at the house that morning, and the other is from detectives and art. Let's start with french since he was the first one who was there that. And so actually I have, if you won't mind, just like reading. I think it's the fort.

says I spoke with .

mister mr. Ma, while berk continued to sleep, miss ramsey told me that he had gone into japan ane's room at about five forty five hours to wake her in preparation for a short family trip the family was to take. Later that day, SHE found japanese room empty and then discovered the note as he walked down the stairs. SHE immediately called police.

Okay, so then just go to the so there's like this another section i'm making a tight for me.

They told me they spent Christmas night with the reduction and that they arrived home at twenty two hundred hours. mr. Ramsay said that gambon's and burk bedrooms are separate and are located on the second floor of the three stories house with the master bedroom on the top floor. Jambon ese bedroom has an access store to the second floor porch, which was locked. And .

okay, so if you wouldn't mind now, i've got Linda aunts right.

Linda says, officer french told me that when he arrived, he met with pati rami jba ee's mother pasi was very upset and destroy, and IT was difficult for officer french to obtain information from her. Officer french also spoke with john rams e. Jane's father.

Officer friends learned that the rem c family had been at a friend's house on the late afternoon and evening of december twenty five jumping, and her brother burke went to bed shortly after the family returned home, john ramsey had read to jubilate after SHE gone to bed and before he went to to sleep, jump had last been seen wearing a red turtle neck and White long underwear. Pati oke up this morning and discovered the suspected ransom note at the bottom of the spiral staircase. Pati originally thought that the note may have been left by the housekeeper.

Officer french has been told that the ramsey family had been planning to leave early this morning for micron. The ramsey family has a home made up of michigan. After pati discovered the note, he went to jamba ee's bedroom.

Pati discovered jamba e was missing something about.

I did ask pati a few questions and was able to receive some information. The following is information I received from pati. Pati has gotten up on the morning of december twenty six thousand nine hundred ninety six, and i'd d gone downstairs from her bedroom to the kitchen.

Pati use the back I E west stairway. The back stairway consists of a spiral staircase leading from just outside, jumping his bedroom to the northwest corner of the first floor of the house. At the bottom of the spiraled staircase, pati discovered a three page handwritten note. The note had been written on legal pad sized paper, pasi said. SHE originally got the note, might have been left by her house after party, looked at the note and read IT SHE ran to job boney's bedroom job was missing.

okay. So that keeps going after that just basically like we're petting a lot of the we like alarm, like talks about their house. Keep a little bit SHE had a key early on when jack was still a missing person.

Police, police. We're asking about anyone who like that access to the house. And then if you want to keep going, landa talks to john k.

John ramsey told me that he and his family had been at a dinner party held at the reduction home on the afternoon and evening of december twenty 50， ninety six. John pai burke and job in a had returned home at approximate twenty two hundred hours. John told me that patsy and burke immediately went to bed.

John had read a book to jumna talk her in to bed. Then john went to bed. John says he went to bed at approximately twenty to thirty .

hours for anyone who whose mine does not work, like mine, ten and ten. I don't work in military. David, like every time, might be like backers from twenty four anyway. So IT keeps going. I'm going to get for anyone who's like as deeply obsessed I am like all have all of this info in the showers you can go agree the fulling for your, but for now you have what you need to know. So that's what police have from the day of about like them getting home, going to bed, finding the know.

There's a bunch more that they talk about like I don't want to give you the impression that the ramp is only said like three words to them like they answered all the questions that they had. But police were expressly told to treat them like victims in the early is not like suspects now, you know, after this, mike bam, steps in, tells john like, listen, I want to help you well, I want to put someone like in place because like, you really need representation in a criminal matter like this and you know, he's like jesus do to take the White like, go ahead. Now we know that they don't sit down for a formal interview.

They leave for atlantic. And then they did that disaster of an interview on CNN, which, if john's insider source was wrong about police, like initially looking at them, like they definitely were now, right? Because some of the stuff in that interview conflicted with the little information that police already knew.

And again, why even talk to see him? And in the first place .

to protect border, right? How to protect? bother? And which is like when i'm SAT down the john, as soon as you tell me that I was like, but that's weird, right? And he is like, I would definitely weird.

But to protect board, I don't know. So and he was, do you heard some of the clubs like they don't go to a ton of detail, but they do say a couple of things that stick out. And I thought that maybe we could just like mr.

rm. Y, you found the note was at a hand written note, three pages. I didn't.

I couldn't read the whole thing I had just gotten up. We were on our IT was the day after Christmas, and we were going to go visiting. And I was quite early in the morning, and I got dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee.

And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas, and I always come down that staircase, and I usually the first one down. And the note was lying across the three pages, across the run of one of the stair trades. And IT was kind of dim.

Aly LED IT was just very early in the morning, and I started to read IT and I was dressed, john said, mr. Ramsey and I said, we have your daughter and I, you know, I just wasn't registering and I I may have gotten through any other sentence. I can't.

We have your daughter and I don't know if I got any further than that. And I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door. And he was not, but an ice scream for john.

John, you subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense? And then john says, well, no, I mean, I really very fast.

I was out of my mind and I said, don't call the police, you know, that type of thing. And I told pati, call the police immediately. And I think I ran through .

the house of IT. We went to check our sun check.

check our son's room sometime SHE seats in there.

And we just, we were just frantic.

And then there's another section that I have here that I was going to read, all read again for john, and you read for pi. To those of you who may want to ask, let me address IT very directly. I did not kill my daughter job in a, there have also been in un.

Dos that he has been or was sexually lester. I can tell you that those were the most hurtful in un. Dos to us as a family. They are totally false johnna, and I had a very close relationship. I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life.

I'm appalled that anyone would think that john or I would be involved in such a hitlist. Heinous crime. But let me assure that I did not kill romane.

I do not have anything to do with this. I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul. We feel like there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this. And that is the killer in someone that that person may have confided in.

The big thing that people took away from this were a couple of things. One, pati says that he only read the first line of the letter, which is hard to understand because in the nine one one call, SHE tells the Operator how IT is signed at the very end of the letter S, B, T, C, Victory. And in one of the first reports, SHE says that he was nervous.

Remember when she's like the standing at the window? She's nervous about the car pulling up in being marked because the letter has had not to call the police. But he doesn't quite make sense how SHE would have known that if he only read the first.

Like liar tip, SHE also talks about screaming for john, and that's new. Didn't SHE say SHE called the police immediately, or even in one versions, and he says he saw someone. I was not in her bed before.

He even saw the letter, right? So that's what's in the reports. But I will say that when detective ARM was kind of, if you remember like that, you read IT in one of them, just rehashing her IT looks like in that version, SHE saw the note first.

So some of the first reports might like the something might be getting lost in relation. And we talked about like there's time between there. The reality is basically say, like know there so much in the initial reports that are just like straight up Brown, like everyones misremembering, or saw things differently, heard things differently, or like misinterpret itself. So the other thing that is interesting about what we learn from that little bit from santa is that there is no excuse for the pineapple that we know about. Everything they say is they like get home, go to bed, there is no like snack later and grana this .

is just like a always like yeah and we got like in .

some of that from the early reports, but it's we don't understand when that would have happened because they don't say like all we got women in this time and feel like there it's just kind of left is a little bit of a mystery. And so all of that to say that after they do to see in anything, police have their antena and they really want to sit down with them once they come back.

There's something weird that happens before they go back to older, because they will go back to builder, like even though they never set foot that house again, they have to go back. So let me back up for a second. Remember, I told you that john's company gave them a plane to use to go .

back to a land .

yeah company company OK. So I don't know who exactly was on IT. I don't have. But in nineteen ninety eight interview with authorities, taxi says that there is some kind of couldn't look like Scott confusion or something around fleet White.

So apparently he was planning to get on the plane back, but he did in and what SHE said, I think I have like her guy. I think it's important to read what he said. So Patty says, quote, I picked up on something that fleet was not acting right and they were going to keep him from going on the private plane back to, well, so I don't know what happened. Something happened.

He's not on the plane with the family who with lana.

but I know he makes his way out to and I somehow and then IT sounds like he losers is ever loving mind something happens, but I like, I don't know what. okay. So flein his wife are staying with john's brother jeff IT seems like and according to aci, fly kind of flips out f like he at one point grabs collar, gets upset about something and then jeff calls over to wear john and past your saying, and he's like, fleets coming, do you have a gun and passes says that her and work in her mom like go to the baseman they're are trying to stay quiet and john and patch's dad go handle .

this thing upstairs hall in me for .

him either. So like everyone apparently comes out of this fine. I mean, like physically, I know whatever education I had like is overwhelmed, but I don't know what happened. Whatever IT was about begins to fracture the friendship between the weight and the ramps.

And has no one asked john about this?

Of course, that I asked you, I I ask him and i'm telling you, this was saying to people, go watch, like in other places. I've heard john say that fleet was upset that they did the but in an interview, john eventually does in one thousand and eighty eight with luster, he says that fleet was the one who .

pushed him to do this is on he's the one who told him to go and like protect balder.

He didn't say that in one hundred and ninety eight, like that was something he said to me. But what he says is that fleet told them to do IT because of what the media was saying about them, that they needed to defend themselves. The protect bolder thing was a good new to me.

I don't know what IT means, but defend themselves, protect bolder. Either way, john, china chokes up whatever this meltdown is to like. Fleet obviously knew the family.

They were at his house for Christmas dinner for going to say he had his wife called over by pathy that morning when they knew jump and he was missing. IT was traumatic for everyone. And john says that fleet just isn't cool. Er pressure and fleet was one of people who down there when he .

found that still doesn't to my question like what was he's saying when he was flipping out?

okay. So please do ask right like because he was there, but when she's asked by police about this, her on the explanation because he said he doesn't know but he says I wasn't having that conversation. What I know and this is a little hard for me to understand because I like but you're part of this like family like something is happening and I it's hard to me understand you you're running to the basement, staying quiet and that like you ask no follow up questions like after you came out the basement is like.

it's fine, move on and like .

on one hand, i'm like I don't buy IT for a second because that's not how I would was found. On the other, I have seen more and more of I don't know the family dynamic, truly know the family dynamic. I think there is like a world that you I grew up in where we saw a .

lot of like like .

the all the S.

A missive isn't the right like exact word but like the dad husbands they're handling yeah there handling IT and we don't need to worry about IT yeah so we don't .

ask any questions so seemingly that happened because she's like that, not a conversation I had.

And what does john say about this though? Like the guy who is actually in the conversation had the conversation with you.

So losman doesn't really ask him about the altercation, at least not what will became part of the I tried to ask him, but john said he doesn't remember. He doesn't remember the exchange, what what words were said. He also doesn't remember what fleet flipped out about at the next altercation they have when they get back to bother.

Sorry, what is happening and how did I not know any of them?

So like the media that we got served really has had its own take right? Everyone just kind of talks about the things that fit their theory. The police were doing at the da was doing IT the ramseys do IT and I get IT like, I mean, truly, how far in our we right now, like you literally can't talk about everything in this case unless you had a four hundred part, many series, even the this episode, I don't .

feel like going to cover IT paging delia.

the crime 真 key is the next section of parallel is seriously， I told you i'm trying to go a layer deeper. I'm trying to show everyone that like to get to the bottom of who IT is so much more complicated than you think IT is. There is like so much more than I think people think that they know and truly like this is not the end of the story, but here is the main take away from today.

I don't think anyone should have a strong opinion anyway until you consume, and that is really hard to do. So like again, as we're going to keep an open mind, even our episode won't be the end. B, R, will get back to the facts, so they come back to bolder.

This is after the funeral. I don't know who travels with who zilla influent might even leave early. There's like this, talk about how they didn't like how they were treated by everyone.

Lana, like they were expecting them to act like things are fine, thing was just too formal, like they were dreaming I up. But eventually everyone goes back to bother. Oh, started to wait one more thing. So um it's a weird fleet thing so before we go back to builder, so when paxo was telling authorities about this fly altercation, SHE said something that set off like truly like fire alarms in my head.

Okay, so this is after flea is kept from getting on the plane, but before he flips out and party like hiding in the basement so pxi says that when they're atlantic, SHE sort of remembers silvi, whose fleet White standing in her mom's living room, saying something like, well, I know what's going on. If you would give me a few minutes of your time, I could let you in on some things. And pati turns to her and he says, parceling, how can you know so much? I'm the mother of this child and I know nothing. So the person asking her, interviewing her when she's like talking about this, asked her what he was talking about. Impact is like, I don't have a clue like, you know, I wish I would have taken up on the offer to like, see what he knew.

But but what? Like we still have time or what did brazilian know?

I don't know. We don't know. Our team try to reach out to the White like nothing back.

Maybe they would say, like they never even said that. Maybe they would say that whatever they said was taking out of contacts. Maybe they would say what john says, and nobody remembers.

Surely police talk to them at some point.

Yeah, yeah. And from everything that's been reported, the White are super CoOperative. They wanted to help in any way that they could.

You could help by telling us what you are saying to them when you are freaking out. That seems like a really good place to start.

I, like I had gotten, asked, and maybe there is a very vanilla answer. But bolder pa has been super tight lift on the Whites, or honestly, pretty any other people that they interduce who weren't the amies all the tickets leaked bar about the rams is everything has a sound like, I mean, a serious and no matter what that you take, things are slanted.

And I feel like i'm dealing like I have a thousand puzzle pieces that I am trying to put together. And I feel like i'm still missing like thirty thousand, like no matter how much this case, like we do not have all the information. But I do think that part of the reason that pathy never went back and I got the answers from persona that we would want, or like I might go and get, is because of this rift that forms between the families.

Because according to party, two more things happen. And after that, I don't think they they will speak again. So personal says that thing, fleet has has melt down and thrown back in button and extranet because Patty said that this next thing she's like, oh, I wasn't really pretty to IT.

It's kind of like the same thing. I wasn't really pretty to this, but she's there when that happens. It's not like she's even removed, like he was in the basement before. So her and john are meeting with their priest, father one, and they're at the church and the three of them, he says, are like praying. And fleet White burst into the office.

Eyes White, he gets on his knees, apparently has this business card and he's like, literally like hanging over john and he says, you know what this is john? You know what this means, john? You know what i'm going to have to do with this, john? I'm going to have 对 杨总 my way。

John, if that he says he like keeps going on and on and like she's asking fleet, like what what is? Is that in his hand and he hands red this business card and it's for someone like a journalist something and there is a no on the back, he said he can recall all word for word, but he says it's something to the effect of quote. This is her, her quote in the interviewer, mr, why? There has been some question as to whether IT was you or john ramsay who removed the tae from job di's mouth, you know. And about the sequence of the basement discovery because we had been .

talking about they've been talking about the .

basement discovery.

I don't know .

and who had and what exactly, I don't know. Don't ask her like SHE just kind of keeps going and they don't circle back to this. And he says that fleet basically says there are after him and his family now that he's going to have to handle this his way like he says so SHE says he's like manic at this point and then the story just kind of visuals like it's not clear how IT d escalates.

I know, father all, I jump s in at some point, but I don't know how IT ends. I don't know what was said. I don't know what journalist IT was like, who gave the car, who's asking these questions or like in fact.

even was the question calling a hopefully journalists who gave a to White the I want to know something.

Latest of people that I want to talk to, like any of them, are welcome to hit me up any time after this episode. So that was the one thing I told. There are two things.

So pathy says that fleet tries to get face time with them one more time. So by this point, when the rams is go back to bother, they kind of like hop around, but they end up like settling and moving in some of their friends. The stints who, weirdly like john call the queens before all of this, but I don't know me.

I like trauma ond is real. So like they become obviously much closer. But pati says that fleet goes to glen science office at colorado university.

And the man to see the rams is, again, I don't know what said, I don't know how IT fizzles the equals, whatever, but like that that. And I want be clear, no one in the White family was ever considered suspects IT by any department. By all accounts, they ve ve CoOperated fully with the investigation, and they have even been staunched critics of how the case was handled.

And we've actually fought legal battles trying to get documents like release that they feel would further the case or would bring more light to the case. But for now, in our story, and with the ranges the White are up, the lines are in, they are the new species. And it's interesting because IT turns out what we learn when john and passive finally do sit down with police in April nineteen ninety seven, and then again, june in a thousand, is that the skins, they may have been some of the last people to actually see john bene before he died.

Okay, so we're like eight hours and to the so do you want to finally get into more details about like the days later twenty six? I know pull you. I you need back story.

No, I know i'm loving all of IT so much.

so i'm onna. Start with the twenty third. On december twenty third, the ramseys hosted a Christmas party with like all of their friends, even like family members of these friends, we like in town visiting.

So to the weight we have, the furnes, the time the borne hills, like all these IT, is big studio. They hire a sana to make an appearance. The kids, like, are decorating gingerbread houses. Everything was mary and bright, at least we assume. But there is one weird thing that happens that night on the twenty third, from the same house where nine one one will be called in less than seventy two hours, someone dies.

nine one one on the twenty third.

on the twenty third, according to an ally times are the call was placed from the rem s. At six forty eight P. M, but he was like a hang up call.

This s try to call back a few minutes later. Nobody answered. So then police sent officer to the house.

What happened? Great question. I don't know. The officer who was dispatch never filed a report. Now I have heard that IT was fleet White who made that call. And there's A A number of like explanations around like going around like oh, he was trying to like dial his mom, he said have been in the hospital at the time. He was trying to like caul and gets a medication for her and dialed or something like that.

I asked john specifically about IT and he's again like does not remember he says so file that whole thing under like wt is just like it's weird and it's one of those we talk about all the time like is IT a coincidence that someone in that house calls nine and one and then this happens? Or like, are there no coincidence? I don't know.

So the twenty forth, nothing super notable happens. They go to church. They go out to dinner at this place called postage.

az. john. D, O, S, the owner, and then they go on to look at Christmas lights. Pathy thinks that maybe they might have gone to the weights at some point, like they were by there. They might have, like stopped by for a little bit, but not a deal.

They all go home, go to bed, and then everyone wakes up the twenty fifth on Christmas day. Like any kids on Christmas day, they wake up first. They like going, get the parents we want to open presence job, got a bike in this, like lifesize twin dolling and work out in ten to sixty four.

They eat big breakfast as a and in thing. So they were planning to leave early the next morning. This would have been like the twenty six, right? yes.

So they plan to leave between to go to shallow way, michigan, to spend Christmas with johns older kids from another marriage. So they were planning on flying private. So john was like, gonna go.

He's going to check on the plane, make sure things ready. Where is the boy? So michigan. So for my crime junk. E people do remember that episode .

on fox island of court.

like a trafficking around, like fathers, seldom whatever north x island is like the main little town that's like the closed, like like a base. So now crime jacky context that is. So it's not like anna is on the mainland, but like it's still pretty hard to get like hence the private plane, right? So he's going to check a plane parties like finishing packing.

She's wrapping some gifts for all the kids to open in michigan. Some neighborhood kids come over at some point to play with jambi and burke and everything's going well. Like in the evening, they get ready to go to the White house for a Christmas dinner.

Pati wants her and job to match. Like that pants red shirt is not into IT. SHE wants to wear this.

Like with the silver star. Six year old wins. Like if we have .

a six year old.

that is so true. Yeah and so they go to the weight. They have crab like that's really like the only like we know they eat crab dinner.

So like it's interesting because not much has been lead about this party like I think there's no pictures. I don't know what happens in like it's not a huge party for my understanding, is like their family Christmas dinner that they had invited. The ramp is too like the year before and then this year.

So IT has became kind of this little tradition, but IT seems small and intimate dish. So the family goes es dinner, then they leave, but they make some stops. first.

Pats, I had gotten some gift baskets for other friends, so they go to the home of the Walkers. First they drop off to the basket pi like the car. Then they go to the sides, what I am talking about, they drop off a gift to there.

Pati goes in for like ten, fifty minutes. SHE can't really remember a burke win with her, but like he might have because he has a friend or the stints have a kid as a hisar. So like IT would make sense if if he did, john doesn't remember for sure who and in or not, like the other, nobody members of, if dominated, they don't think so.

But whatever, nothing notable. They had one more shot. They were supposed to make another gift basket, but I was getting late. They had to get up early in the morning, so they decided to just go home. Now it's just a couple minute drive to their house from the skin.

And when they get there, they say the job in a was already like zoned out t so as there giving these like longer statements to police, this is again where we get like, no, SHE was never awake. And john read a story to IT like he was asleep. What they say.

John had to Carry her up to her room. He put her in the bed, he took off her coat, took off her shoes, and then party took over from there. And he said, SHE changed her out of her pants. I just put those long js on. And the whole time SHE is like the man was so tired that he didn't even wake up at all, which like i've heard people like rumble about.

yeah but I mean, this literally happened to me yesterday. May fell asleep in a car. Justin fully unbuckled out of her seat, Carried her and later on her bed and SHE shot for another hour.

I fully like yet change in the other day like this. So like especially ally comfort, like a party with friends and self.

Kids can. But when does the big ze twelve and of.

I don't know. IT is so weird. The underwear like a big thing. I can't explain because IT seems like the other was originally bought for another family member like a Young girl in the family who twill.

I've heard that maybe IT was wrapped up like as a gift to take with them, like as a present in the basement somewhere. But then like, oh, maybe job decided he wanted them. There's never like a good clear answer on why she's wearing them.

where they came from, where when they got on her, any of that.

So again, cause so pati put jump down. John is downstairs with berk because I guess he still wanted to play a little bit. He had this toy or something that he wanted put together.

Dad was helping him with that for a little while. Pi finishes up some last minute things. Then he goes to bed that he probably does her Normal routine, like tea washer face, whatever.

And then when john went to bed, he said, she's already there that, you know, I don't know SHE necessarily sleep, but he's like, we don't like having interaction. She's down and I read for a little bit and then i'd fall asleep, and then we didn't wake up until the morning. So the big differences here now are that job, I is asleep when they get home. Whether before we see in early reports that he was awake, that john read to her, that's not the case anymore. And the rym is, say, and i've cept this before, like everyone the day of misunderstood, and they wrote their reports wrong, that john didn't read the job that he read when he went to that and again, people would be like, so everyone who had the report got IT wrong and they say, like, I don't know if inertion was flowing .

from one person to another I A like transcription and using reports as references that might have been happening yes.

they say they've always been consist not the case. Don't know where they got back from now the next morning, john is the first one up but like before the alarm, he took a shower. Pathy wakes up.

Then, while he's like in the shower, SHE throws on the same clothes, talked to us from the night before he puts on her makeup, just her hair. SHE goes down stairs where he finds the note. And then when he finds the note he calls for, john burke is asleep the whole time.

And at some point john checked on him to make sure that he was there. And okay, but they again leave him to sleep till they knew what to do. So you are know, they call police, even though the note says in the statement that do not call police, john tels her to call the scene isn't preserved in anyway. And a little after one of clock the afternoon, john fines jane in the wine solar, where presumably SHE had been all a .

what always baffalls me is, how had no one looked in this room? Is windsor? Or like the whole day there were so many people in the house and they were everywhere, except for somebody is rome.

But this is one of, like, the great mysteries. And it's potentially another example of morphs law or like maybe not maybe this something that doesn't make sense, I don't know. So officer french admit that when he went and looked around the house, like he saw that door, but he saw that was a large and he I don't know this because the latter was high or like.

what about IT that he was like, oh.

this wouldn't make sense for a little girl, does does even open IT and look, which is an now i've heard fleet, why even went down in the basement at some point that day and looked around. He even he opened the door, so more than french he actually opened the door, chew the room that they are finding jumping A N but doesn't see anything.

But one thing i'll say is john says um or like is old interviews, it's like not clear he can remember he like turned on the light or of the light was or what I understand, right? Like in that moment like that's not a detail I would remember. So is IT possible that fleet didn't turn IT on a john could also just like naturally like big .

instinctively know. And I think that six with me that had made like a or this wine ellar like is yes.

And that true? Yes, I know. So he does. When he says he go look top to bottom, he does go right for the basement.

I think he makes, he goes to the broken window first, I think, or at least like jazz fleets, attention to broken window. And then he goes to the White sale. But IT is pretty immediate, and he is.

The other thinks I can't explain. So remember how a year ago and we started, so I told john that john went to the basement like at some point that morning when he was looking around. So he says that he goes down, this is like a before the right about like ten.

So he says he goes down and he noticed the broken window and he said the the window was like unleased and open and if he says, like slightly later reports, it's like wide open but either way it's really strange because like he says later, what he did is he just like latched to back up and I told you he comes up to the basement and he doesn't say anything. He doesn't say the wind was broken. He doesn't say the wind was open, which like your daughter missing at that point, if you're looking for.

look, a point of entry or exit.

it's notable. It's notable. And I think that people wonder why he wouldn't bring that up in that moment. But again, you do so many things that don't make sense in the middle of trauma. Now this window does end up becoming a huge part of the narrative. Later, when the reese ties have to go higher, a team to look into the idea of an intruder because, again, they say that the police only focused on them. So there are a lot of strange things have, and in this case, that the media latches onto. This is how we got so many of those wild tablet stories, which, by the way, like I don't know, you notice I ordered a bunch of these like on ebay just because I wanted to let go back and get a sense of like what everyone seeing and IT is that kind of while that we I definitely win allowed like buy this oh no.

we could see the covers that the girls we are and that .

was that I think I shot you like I was looking like the fashioned here so we were never allowed to look inside the table. I like, I don't know what I it's like when we bye e body. My mom taped .

over a part of that he thought was too scandals for and that I would be so bad so much for in our head. And we watched IT and IT was just a dancer. E that SHE had cut yeah that was .

a that was IT. So um it's so interesting because like the store, there's like no meat there. They like this headline and then like two interesting lines and then like a bunch of nothing like seventeen .

different lions saying the exact same thing written like different just to back up that line.

it's truly headline only. And all of the headlines were, mom this, dad that, and the tables were freaking ruthless, like they were following them. They were harassing them.

They said, don me, that they had to, like, hide burg on the floor board of the car, just like, get him to school. Like is nothing off limits? I mean, I already told you about her autopsy photos getting released earlier.

We talked about her like bad wedding that got released because they ended up releasing her medical records. Like someone lead the girls medical records to reporters in some way. And I like, I don't want to go into like every single visit or not visit coin is like people are coming out of the wood work.

And anyone with pictures or stories were like trying to just make a buck. Some of them were fabricated, some of them were true. And one of them that has become a central part of the story is the fact that jamin ane was having toileting issues.

And this information, in particular, I feel I kind of becomes the crux of detective Steve Thomas theory. He was very clear that he thought that I was the one who killed jambon e. His idea was that jamb ne wet herself that night and everything else was done to like stage to cover up.

He even wrote a book on the case, and like his theory of IT, the remains ended up suing him and his publisher over IT they settle out of court detective aren't had a different theory like SHE very much was suspicious of john. Like SHE thought he had something to do with her death and like, I think I brought up her good morning amErica interview already from nineteen ninety nine o statement, yeah, very right. So I don't need to rehash the whole thing.

I'm going to link IT out. I mean, all of the source material IT is interesting to because SHE looks like a woman whose shock or people they throw out nasty things too. And SHE doesn't give a motive. Maybe he doesn't know what the motive totally was, but he seems to straight up be proceed as scared of john rmc. Y like he talks about this moment when he brings her jane's body up and there both like over her and she's like, I look at him and like in that moment I just know and then SHE tell him to go on nine one one and he says he grabbed her shoulder, host like her gun and SHE counts her bullets because he didn't know if everyone would make out of their alive or like, or IT would be alive when they come like first responders.

Now I said, SHE like, looks scare to me but he gets written off as a crazy lady like a lot of people call a crazy like I think that's an easy out when you're talking about a woman like a way, but just something that I think is easy thing to say like and really john in our interview, like, he stressed that to me, like just how crazy SHE was. How like, incompetent. But I asked him in the interview because I do know that later on, pi and Linda end up having some kind of, like, at least coral exchanges were landed, like goes and meet to a Patty for like an hour, like just the two of them.

I ask him because he was he was still like, she's so crazy. He is so crazy and I was like, clearly there's kind of relationship and at first was well know, was done though but like I was after he got taken off the case, what did they talk about? And Johnson, he was a no, he was a person conversation.

So that answer probably dive with party. I think john still like to me, he's still called her crazy. And I think SHE gets a lot of the flag for bungling the scene that first day, but he actually had suing her department, saying that he was, they had kind of like an artificial gg.

Board, I understand. And he says he was kept from defending herself like IT wasn't all on her, SHE says. And IT rowed her career and SHE does SHE kind of like unceremonious ly, just like gets taken off the case.

He got harassed by questioning. K, I don't really know. I don't know if anyone knows for sure SHE doesn't do interviews anymore.

There was a rumor SHE was writing a book, but I didn't seem like a people about that. So he probably saw what happened to see ve Thomas with his book and her case against department of getting dissed. So no winning for her to talk about this case.

I couldn't I gan off the record conversation. So she's far removed from this. Now, moral of the story, the loud there is among the enforcement were families centric, and IT seems like even they couldn't agree on who or White. Because things were a mess.

Many people were calling for a grand ery to be convened so that they could decide what is just tablets, father, and what is real evidence? Like, was there someone in the house responsible for something that night? Or should we be out there looking for an intruder like the brand is happen saying all along, IT takes almost two years, but the damn finally breaks in september of one hundred and ninety eight.

That is when a grand jury finally gets caught. But before that is going to, very big letters get published publicly, one from fleet White in anticipation of the grand jury, and then another from detective Steve promise, who is like denza. With this, he resigns from the department in like a pretty dramatic way. And listen, the next parts gona be like just a little bit long, but coral is like, IT is spicy. And remember, you guys, like you signed up for this so I am going to edit each of these just a little bit down for like clarity, but i'm going to have links to the full thing in our show notes so you can go with them in full grabe your corn let's get come be the first Brown detective Steve hones chief banner.

On june twenty second, I submitted a letter to chief kobe requesting a leave of absence from the border police department in response to persistent speculation as to why I chose to leave the ramsey investigation. This letter explains more fully those reasons. The primary reason I chose to leave is my belief that the district attorneys office continues to be handle the rmc case.

I have been troubled for many months with many aspects of the investigation. I'll be a enough hill battle of a case to begin with. IT became nearly impossible investigation because of the political alliances, philosophical differences and professional. He goes that block progress in more ways, in on more occasions than I can detail in this memorandum. On june first and second one thousand nine hundred ninety eight, we crunched thirty thousand pages of investigation to its essence and put our cards on the table, delivering the case in a formal presentation to the district attorney ice.

We stood confident in our work very shortly there, after though, the detectives who know this case Better than anyone were advised by the district attorneys office that we would not be participating as grand jury advisory witnesses, how were we expected to solve this case when the district attorney's office was crippling us with their positions? I believe they were literally facilitators the escape of justice during this investigation. Consider the following.

During the investigation, detectives would discover, collect and bring evidence to the district torney office, only to have a summarily dismissed or rationalized as insignificant. The most elementary of investigative efforts, such as obtaining telephone and credit card records, were met without support search warrants. Tonight, the significant opinions of national experts were casually dismissed or ignored by the district attorneys office.

Even the experienced FBI were wave decide in a departure from protocol, police reports, physical evidence and investigative information we shared with ran sy defense attorneys. All of this in the district attorneys office spirit person, I served a search warrant only to find later defense attorneys were simply given copies of the evidence that yieldin, an FBI agent, whom I didn't even know, quietly tip me off about what the da s. Office was doing behind our backs conducting investigation.

The police department was wholly unaware of. I was advised not to speak to certain witnesses in all but dissuaded from pursuing particular investigative efforts. Innocent people were not cleared publicly otherwise, even when I was unmistakably the right thing to do as reputations in lives were destroyed.

Some in the district turn's office to this day pursue weak defenses and innocent people in shameless tactics that one couldn't believe. More bizarre, if I were made up, I was told by one in the district attorneys office about being unable to break a particular police officer from his resolute accounts of events had witnessed. In my opinion, this was not trial preparation.

This was an attempt to deal months of hard work. There is evidence that was critical to the investigation that to this day has never been collected because neither search warrants nor other means were supported to do so. Not to mention evidence which still sits today untested in laboratory, has different is continue about how to proceed.

While investigative efforts were rebufat, my search warrant, affidavits and attempts together, evidence in the murder investigation of a six year old child were met with refusals. And instead the suggestion that we asked the permission of the ramseys before proceeding. And just before conducting the ramsey interviews, I thought IT inconceivable I was being lectured on building trust.

These are about a few of the many examples of why I chose to leave, having to convince, to plead at times to a district turin's office to assist us in the murder of a little girl by way of the most basic of investigative request was simply absurd. I believe the district attorneys office is thorough, compromised. When we were told by one in the district attorneys office, months before we had even completed our investigation, that this case is not prosecutable.

We shoot our heads in disbelief. Will there be a little attempt to justice? I may be among the last to find out he is my belief.

The district torney office has effectively crippled this case. The time for intervention is now what I witnessed for two years of my life was so fundamental, flawed, IT reduce me to tears. Everything the badge ever meant to me was so foundationless shaken.

One should never have to sell one soul as a prerequisites. Wear IT. On june twenty six, after leaving the investigation for the last time and leaving the city of older, I wept t as I drove home, removing my detector shield and placing IT on the seat beside me, later putting IT on a destroy.

No, I can never put IT back on. At thirty six years old, I thought my life's passion as a police officer was card in stone. I realized that although I may have to train my bags for a carpenters hammer, I will do so with a clear conscience is with a heavy heart that I offer my resignation from the bolder police department and protest of this continuing travesty. Detective Steve Thomas, number six, thirty eight, detective division builder.

police department. Okay, that was so much.

I had you. Yeah.

you trim this up.

Yes.

clearly we only got the big part of the important part is but I mean, I guess why be taking away from me is he's thinking that the police and the D A he saying so he .

he was on was on border pity and he's basically highlighting the rift that I think was kind of becoming evident like a very much felt like they were a little bit on different teams and and they tried like publicly to like be a united friend. But I was like, I was pretty clear that's not what was happening.

And you know, one of the things like, actually, he kind like touched down to the search worries and staff when I was interviewing john and I was like, no one of the things I heard was that like they didn't get your like cells one records and he's like the second they asked for something, we gave IT to them and it's like, this is one of those things were like, it's all true. So IT like the D. S.

Office was delaying the P. D. In requesting those things like they weren't signing the search warns. They were asking them not to go ask the family.

So there were times when maybe things weren't collected in a timely manner, but IT wasn't because the rams is were with holding things, is because things weren't like flowing properly on the long enforcement .

side yeah and like going at the same time, not because long force ant didn't won IT.

it's because they being ocracoke .

like yes and maybe more yes. And why but why so the realms is having cleared that. They feel like no other suspects were investigated properly. And if you read legal depositions or watch any of the clips that have come out from them, that letter from Steve Thomas is caving. His book is as well.

But I like went through when I was reading the deposition and watching some of the clips and there are times that in opinion still gets caught, were like do think there were areas pointed out where like they could have done more investigating or ways that he he frames things in his book that I don't like. Maybe it's not strong. You a again frame that.

And then I also think we're very clear and that there is not a sympathy for ship between the D. S. Office and the police. And the second letter I mentioned, the fleet White letter. I think IT really raises the question of why that was just but why? So here you go again, edit IT down a little bit, but i'll link you the phone .

to the people of colorado. In anticipation of receiving a to appear before that grand jury, we wish at this time to address matters concerning the investigation, which we feel are of great importance to the people of colorado and the border community.

After john benee ramsey was killed in border nearly twenty months ago, her parents, john in athi ramzi, immediately hired prominent democrat criminal defense attorneys with the law firm of haden Morgan. And forming this firm in its partners have closed professional, political and personal ties to prosecutors, the denver and bolder legal and judicial communities, state legislators and high ranking members of colorado government, including governor roy roma. We knew john bene and our parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as witnesses during the past year.

We have also come to know and respect mister Thomas, and we're sudden and discouraged by his departure from the investigation. We share mr. Thomas view regarding the district attorney and its contention that pressure brought to bear on the district tourney and police leadership from various quarters has thwarted the investigation and delayed justice in the case. While IT is unlikely that the district attorney has been corrupted by ramsey defense attorneys, IT is certain that the district attorney and its prosecutors have been greatly influenced by their metro area district attorney advisers and by defense torney charme asim ess and threats of reprisals for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients.

Indeed, the district attorney and ran zi attorneys have size multi evensen rebuked the police for focusing their investigation on the ranges when in fact, police were simply following evidence, not we're standing what the public has been made to believe builder police leadership and detectives have been under the effective control of the district attorney in his advisor since the early days of the investigation. In december one thousand nine hundred ninety seven, we met with governor roma to request that the state intervene in a point in dependent special prosecutor to take over the investigation and prosecution of the case. Citing the growing conflict between police and prosecutors and the delay of any progress in the investigation, we expressed our view that older authorities were incapable of seeking justice.

Most developments in the case brought to the poll's attention throughout one thousand nine ninety seven should be regarded as well publicly, but clumsy attempts by the district attorney and police leadership to look busy, long task lists and clean up investigative files, while the district attorney killed time and spread out responsibility for the case. On the other hand, advances in the case since early this year have been carefully planned to condition the public for a grand jury investigation the district atterley passed in decision and the need for police to ask him for a grand jury investigation where deliberate attempts to mislead the public, if based on nothing other than the district attorneys, repeated public statements and leaks characterizing the case as not prosecutable. There can be little doubt that upset a confession that people running the investigation had long ago decided against filing charges in the case.

Instead, they manipulated public opinion to favor the use of the grand jury. There is compelling evidence, however, that their motivation for presenting the case to a grand jury has little or nothing to do with obtaining new evidence, drilling reluctant witnesses or returning an indictment, and everything to do with sealing away facts, circumstances and evidence gathered in the investigation in a grand jury transcript. IT is our firm belief that the district attorney and others intend to use the grand jury in its secrecy and attempt to protect their careers and also serve the conflicting interests of powerful, influential and threatening people who have something to hide or protect or who simply don't want to be publicly linked to a dreadful murder investigation and direct response to mr.

Thomas recent letter governor roma met on August twelfth nineteen ninety eight, with district grant, ridder, Peters and Thomas. Later that day, governor roma announced at a press conference that hunter had told him that the case was on track for a grand jury. Roma said that he would be improper to appoint a special prosecutor now, but that to improve public confidence in the case, he would make available to hunter additional prosecutorial expertise.

On August thirteen, in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight, the rocky mountain news offered an editorial entitled calling in the cavalry, in which the editor generally supported governor rome's action. But insight fully asked the obvious question, why has IT taken so long for hunters office to present the case to a grand and jury? There is a relatively simple but compelling answer to the question raised by the rocking mountain in news editorial.

Since very early in the case, there has been at least a tacit understanding among the district attorney, police leadership, those persons vision, these agencies and rami defense attorneys that the case would be presented to a grand jy, but not until the statutory bolder grand jury was convened in April nineteen ninety eight. This delay was deemed necessary by some or all of these parties in order to take advantage of a new statue concerning grand jory reporting by law. However, this change in procedure would only apply to reports issued by grand juries convened after october first ninety ninety seven in order to take advantage of the new statute, a older grand jury would have to wait until April nineteen ninety eight, the next convening of the statutory board grand jury subsequent to october first ninety ninety seven.

In order to accomplish this, IT was necessary for these people to stall and cynically rely on the public. Lx, relative ignorance of the statute and the purpose and general nature of grand juries speaking in favour of the bill before the committee were district attorneys ridder, Thomas and grant. All of these district attorneys, along with jim Peters, will be named publicly as advisers to alex hunter on rams the case, the original intent of the colorado district attorney council draft, and that a representative coffin was to make IT easier for grandjon ies to issue reports in cases whether is not an endangered returned, but where in the public interest the grand jy wishes to address allegations of misconduct by public employees falling short of criminal conduct, the final bill made a possible for a grand jury to address allegations of first and second degree murder and the two classes of child abuse resulting in death.

The new statute would enable a older grand jury investigating the death of john bane razi to publicly exoneration one who'd been alleged to have committed one of these crimes, but only in the event in additively not returned. The bill was signed into law by governor roma on April eighth ninety ninety seven. IT is certain that balder county district attorney alex hunter, the metro area district attractions advising mr.

Hunter, the current the ship of the border police department, the three attorneys advise the border police department and ran zi defensive tourneys have known that to take advantage of the new statute that would be necessary to delay a grand jury investigation of the ramsey case until April nineteen ninety. Ate the people of colorado are entitled to be frustrated and angry with those public officials and other persons who have brought this case to its current status. We must be mindful, however, of the first cause of the investigations failure, the refusal of john and pati rai to CoOperate fully and genuinely with those officially charged with responsibility of the death of their daughter john.

Bene fleet, russia White junior and brazil la. a. Brown White, August seventeen, nineteen ninety eight older colorado.

What my head is absolutely spinning. I can barely get my thought straight on this right out.

We obviously weren't reading colorado and newspapers in one hundred and ninety eight. And like the scenes, a little too heart heading .

for like the grocery tb when we .

were in like third grade. So I think a lot of people missed this.

So basically in a nut chill fleet is saying that there is just mad corruption. No, it's a much corruption.

but like conflict of interest.

So bill was made with the intention of clarifying the laws, so there was more like transparency in the process for the public, which would basically let them issue certain reports from grand during proceedings, but still keep other parts of things fitial .

check by the .

time that was the system timing IT like right after jambon e's death. And with the help people providing advisement consultation representation, in her case, IT was a little different because .

I know what is going.

I'll cut right to the chase. One of the main things that I would allow them to do is say, like the jury didn't that, which is there is no place my hand bingo.

and you do know where this is going. So the grand jy is called lots of witnesses. We know some through reporting, like who is going to court and what not like.

I know detective, and to aren't burke. I know the ramsey pilot, the Whites, lots, lots, lots more. Not still, Thomas, as we know from his letter, not the rainsy john pai, though john is always maintained that they were more willing to go to participate anyway necessary.

But ultimately they were not called. And then in october of one thousand nine hundred ninety nine, their hearings come to an end, and the district attorney makes this long await announcement. The bolder grand jury has completed its work and will not return.

No charges have been filed. The grand jars have done their work extraordinary arly well, bringing to bear all of their legal powers, life experiences and fruitiness. Yet I must report to you that I, in my prosecution task force, believe we do not have sufficient to warn the filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time under color of law. The proceedings of the grand jury are secret. Under no circumstances will I or any of my advisers, prosecutors, the law enforcement officers working on the case or genres, discuss the grand jury proceedings today or ever, unless ordered by the court.

So basically, everyone decided the ramps had nothing to do with IT because the ground dry, didn't I?

Yes, that was basically the implied message to the public. Like, hey, no tablet B S. Like, these are the facts. And these people decided that there be no charges is the implied mess.

Linda air speak.

no. So he did her good morning amErica thing that I talked about. SHE did that right before this. Hap, okay. So SHE did that interview in september.

And the read these lawyers, they made a statement about her appearance that I found in the denver post because they are comment on the tiny. So they said, quote, we question the timing of this interview. The statement from the RAM journey said the grand jury will conclude its work in the next month. There is no good reason why this air could not have sought publicity after the grand dry once concluded. That and court now after this is when momentum really picked up.

I think for the ramsey family, who finally feels the small amount of vindication, and they hope that maybe now investigators will focus on looking for the intruder that they say came into their home, that they have been saying all along, came into their home, a home which they sell and move away from, to go back to georgia. And john told me that his company had this relocation program where they would buy your house like and i've seen stuff like this would like big organization, especially for like higher exec like they would buy a from you so that you can move when they need you to move and held this house for ever so they buy IT and then result ever. But it's interesting because like the document around this is kind of weird. So from the records that I pulled from the assessors office, I see where the house was bt, presumably by the rams, is in one thousand nine hundred ninety one for five hundred or thousand dollars, then in december of one thousand ninety seven. And this is about a year after job, in a looks like .

there is a transfer of the deed, but IT is a zero dollar .

transfer from the accessors office records. And I can't see who IT went to like they don't have that publications ailments .

the transfer on record right then .

we see another transfer happen in february of thousand nine hundred ninety eight for six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. According to statements made, two reporters might find them says that a group of investors purchase the rem c house from like this lock ky middle man thing, but they didn't purchase IT under anyone like one person's name or or person's names, which that is like a totally Normal. The L, L, C, formed is named after the address a, so it's seven by five fifteen street. L, C, mike, I am told the daily camera that this group of investors was composed of individuals assisting the ramsey family.

What does that even mean?

I can't tell you, because I looked up the the property records and then the business records. So I went and looked for seven, five, five, fifteen, three, L. C.

The company doesn't list individuals names under its member, so instead IT list group two, partnership group for partnership. And then there is a registered agent because you have to have someone's need go go company or reality. And the register agent is a woman and and bark.

And there's a listed actress of one hundred fifteen three in bolder. So I did a newspaper 点 com archive look up with that address and like， listen, newspaper 点 com， it's great, is not the end of beer. In fact, I found that it's like actually very hard to find a lot of balder things and I don't think they included.

But I did find one article in toda when I google that address. There is one article that comes up and is from the daily seal from february six, nineteen ninety seven. It's this article about like the cost of the rem c investigation, like what it's costing, like the police, the city ah and then towards the end, IT says wednesday, the ramsey family announced the address to make a contributions for a children's advocate group founded in their daughter's memory.

Donations may be sent to the john benyon's y children's foundation in care of the colorado o business bank of bolder one thousand nine hundred fifteen street older eight zero three zero two. And so then I gotten to this, like, weird rabbit hole with this bang, because, and when I started looking up the bank, I found this next article from the daily, or from thousand nine hundred ninety seven. And IT says women's bank has changed its name to colorado business bank, a sign of the progress women have made since the business was founded twenty years ago.

But in a piece and later that I saw in gender library dot org, IT says that the women's being sold in one thousand nine hundred ninety four and that the name change happened in one thousand ninety five, not nineteen ninety seven, in this article I found was, and according to the nice librarian at the carney library of local history and bolder color to that address, the one thousand hundred fifty was listed for cola business bank in their phone box in ninety. And but then IT wasn't there anymore in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine. And then I saw that, like when I look at the color of business bank, I got bored by B O K final and twenty eighteen so don't like I got bought and changed in ty nine one pears and IT all probably means nothing like I don't know who and bork is. It's probably not weird that SHE with the house is tied to this bad dress where they're doing foundation donations because we know that the group who bought the house was like composer.

like people who supporting the, and almost feels like almost exactly of a time situation, head for an orange function or what not.

So I don't know, again, he might have some connection. I like try reaching out of people who might known her. I had any getting anyone to talk to me. But let's go back to the house for a second. So the statements made about the house at the time about this like mystery purchase was that this group was gonna hold onto the house for like T V D amount of time, and then all of the profits from the house are gonna to the japan ian and children foundation, which by this point john PC had set up in memory of jump in with the help of like buying is always there. According to the denver post, the foundation was formed with the goal to, like I think they said, gather funds to be used in the education and care of children, all in the memory of john.

So you don't when the house.

so I do, so the house in sell until two thousand and four.

Okay, so this is a total aside. But I just read a book. It's called tell me everything the story of a private investigation and it's about this private investigators like assistant who is investigating university colorado. And one of the people that she's investigating is like someone who is living in the ramsey house at the time of the investigation.

which is nineties .

early two thousands.

So it's like in this in period.

in this inner period, I think I like .

he's not a person who .

should be able to necessary afford a six thousand square foot mansion. The timing is just what I wanted to mention .

that and we know that there's no like transact action in that period. Someone must have been like renting IT or letting him stay there. I was like to tell you who, but I don't know who. I don't know who .

who is holding the property at.

That just a you just a story that I like .

literally like a months ago.

okay. So to go back, I looked at the foundation a little bit so they say that they are going to hold the house for TV on the time, maybe branch out, we don't know. And then they're gona donate the money from like the the proceed of the whatever profit from the house to the founding train.

I didn't find when I was expected to fine. So the nine ninety forms for the organization they filed in one thousand and ninety eight, nine, nine, ninety nine in two thousand, they don't show any huge transactions after two thousand. And I think they actually stop filing, and then the family should get shut down in two thousand and three shut IT down two thousand and three meant that contributions from the sale.

The house two thousand four couldn't go there. Oh, so I don't know where they went. You would have to ask group two partners and group four partners if anyone knows who that is.

Unfortunate that we can ask and board because he died two thousand and nine. So so I can I see one of the house and go there. I was also expecting, though, to see money from the sale, john and passes book.

So they wrote a book called the death of innocence. And many of the statements that I had seen from them, from their team, from all these different people, is that the proceeds from the block, we're gonna go towards two things. So the ramsey legal fees and the foundation now, Peter, john IT seems like their legal fees like bled them dry.

At one point, his lawyers represented him, he said, pro bono, because they couldn't afford to pay them anymore. What if an interesting is that the goal must have change to be that two pronged approaches? Sometime because when I set down, john actually gave us this these box of, like, tapes. And most of them are what time for home movies t like family wedding that actually one of those tapes appears to be of john pasi practicing their book promotion interviews with a media trainer, which is bearing, like, I did media training before I went on the toy show to look at my book. But this is where are like again, in this at least, that seems like IT started that the money was gonna only go to .

one place here to glisten OK. You are, you have written up a very sorrow and interesting book. What did you intend to do? profits. IT has a personal question, and should I always wait, prevent the answer?

Or should I just know just if i'm looking at you?

okay. Well, we establish the foundation in germany's name to or her and the legal legacy for her. And the progress from the book will .

go to the foundation.

Foundation is going to focus on protecting children against powers.

Is that I guess that. I don't know, you just. Really, really hanging here. I mean, that is a very generous thing.

A good thing for you to do is IT how you know how to protect children against, because I use the money to do that. But we've seen a number of flaws in our system. As IT relates to the murder, the child.

We are the strongest, most powerful city on earth yet. Yet we don't respond with our mind when one of our children is moved. That's wrong. We want to. Would IT be possible for your site? Some of the cases are they talking about, other than when the best examples that that that we have learned about through all of this is that when your child's photograph is taken at school or a church or any kind of activity, dance recycles, piano recycles, that photograph becomes the property of the photographer, and he or SHE may publish that at any time, any place that they so choose without.

So for they on the copyright, what danger can you can happen if if your child, like photograph is, is some place in in A A pedophile or someone who has reason to want to zero in a that child and do harm to that child, that is a bad thing. So are you associating that with with your own tragedy? Are you saying that there were so many photographs of because of the the worth that you did in pageants that that could have incited some? I'm saying that that is an example, a one way that we need.

We do not need to put our children out there in newspaper articles. In the photographs should be for family memories, not for have like release. Well, in in.

Most important, when a child is murder in this country, we need to respond with the best. We have defined the gear that does two things that sends a message that we're not going tolerate IT. And if you think about harming our child, our children need Better twice.

And second ensures that we capture these monsters before they kill again. I don't know that you have beneficient in one derful feelings about about doing this kind of thing, but how would you go about protecting a child and take I I would advocate that. The murder of a child be the most serious offence in our society.

That should be a federal crime to were a child. And what is found? One day the mood was found, he should be given. He should be, he should be a put away. That's the most horrible thing if you would make communis to pray show.

Okay, what i'm getting at is I think the wonderful and and envision erse thing to do to to donate the profits of you book to such a cause. I don't know how you going to implement IT and how you're going to make IT your educational awareness to legislation. They're all done in that yet.

Has foundation .

been set?

Substantial rewards for information. We can establish, uh, tip center, the information center. We can establish databases, the track known, uh, child sex offenders, uh, we can put experts in place, make experts available to local enforcement.

We can advocate, uh in the united states, uh, congress, the murder of a child should be mine data as as a federal crime. Federal resource should be put on attacking that. But so far you haven't done anything like that. No, everyone else we're going to try where you do the best is is a horrible on our system. We respond aggressively when bank is right.

So john and I when I talk to him, we didn't get into where the house money went during our conversation because if he saw that, i'm not sure he's the person who has the answers that i'm looking for. We did get a little bit into Jamie ese legacy and what's happening place at the foundation, i'm going to touch on out a little bit later.

I don't think the raises were ever planning to fund the whole foundation themselves, perhaps there warn contributions at most. Like I said, I only saw small transactions, and at most there was like twelve dollars that I saw like in the thing. So while starting the foundation was like a noble effort, IT perhaps wasn't the undertaking that they were ready for.

As someone who started, I drew five, one leg. IT is a heck of a lot of work and like to keep IT running, to keep a sustainable on its own. IT is like a massive undertaking.

So whatever they were planning, I mean, in that interviews, like have you done this? No, like our plan to do IT. yes. Like that doesn't actually come to for vision.

So in two thousand three, the foundation goes defund oh, there's something two dozen three was a weird year, so the foundation goes to defund two dozen three and then something else happens. And it's one of those other things that I had never known about before. Okay, so here is a media release that was sent out on wednesday, june fourth, two thousand and three that has been archived on bolder colorado docta.

The bolder police department recently became aware that someone was unlawfully sending emails using the name of chief Baker on April twenty fifth, two thousand, three rocky mountains n news columns. Charlie brennan received an email titled as being from chief backer, complimenting mister brennan for a recent column he had written on the john vane ramsey case.

According to embedded information within the message, the email was sent from an M S N hotmail account backer B P D at hot mail dot com. The email was then signed off with regards mark. Please see below message text from chief buckner sent friday, April twenty fifty two thousand three one sixteen pm, two brand in sea at rocky mountain news dot com subject, great articles charlie, just want you to know.

I thought those two articles you wrote today were you got everything right? As you always do, thanks for all your support eventually will be proven right regards mark being sceptical of the messages authenticity mister brenon telephone chief Baker, to ask him about the message, chief buckner confirmed that he did not send the message. The chief was alarmed that someone was apparently using his title and name without authorization to communicate about the john benny ramsey case with members of the media search warns were obtained and executed for M S N hotmail in california.

According to M S N hotmail, the backer B P D at hotmail dotcom account was established in two thousand. The account creator provided information stating that the owner was chief banner from bolder colorado and furthermore provided an accurate birthday for the chief further investigation LED police to the internet protocol I P numbers from where the suspects have been accessing the banner B P D at hot mill dot com account since early march two thousand three. All access to the banner B P D at hot mail dot com account or from a single com now owned by earth link dial up account, a search warrant was obtained, an executed for earth link in georgia according to earth links records.

The account holder that has been accessing the banner B P D at hot mail dot com email account is Susan beeston five seven six zero long group drive at lana, georgia. Susan stein is known as a close friend of john and pathy ramsey and has been interviewed as a witness in reference to the ramsey investigation. The search warns also yielded other messages that had been received by the backer B P D at hot mail dot com account.

A number of these messages indicate that the backer B P D at hott mail dot com user had been attempting to convince others that he or SHE was chief mark Baker. Others appeared to be nonsense ago. Please note that the investigators were able to confirm that the messages to and from rocky mountain news reporter charlie brand in and read a Johnson or received or sent by those individuals.

The other messages were not confirmed as received or sent by those parties at the request of the border police department members of the georgia bureau investigation. G, B, I went to midlands residents in an attempt to interview her on june third, two thousand and three. However, he refused to talk with the G, P, I.

Agent chief mark buckner is alarmed by the discovery that his name and position as bolder police chief has been used in an effort to communicate with others. Given the history of the ramsey case and the concerns we have had with information being distributed to the public often times inaccurate information, this discovery is disturbing, stated chief banner. I want the media and public to know that if they have received communications from this email address, proportion to be me that IT is, guess my facial email address is public and is banner.

Am a bolder colorado dot gov. Under colorado law, criminal impersonation is a class six felony, and impersonating a police officer is a class one first minor. The bolder police department and the older county district torney office have agreed to issue a letter to Susan stein advising her of the unlawful conduct and that the use of chief buckner's name in such a manner must seize immediately.

The banner B, P, D at hotmail dark calm account has been frozen by M, S, N. hotmail. The bolder police department would like anyone receiving email messages from any reported member of the bolder police department to know that official email addresses use the members last name and first initial, followed by at balder, colorado gov.

If you are not sure that a message is legitimate, please call the department member to confirm that they did, in fact send the message. We are concerned that there could be other messages out there, reportedly ly from either me or other department members that are fake in an attempt to either receive information or communicate false information. Stated banner on june third, two thousand, three chief Baker did receive an email from Susan stein in which he apologized for using the hot mail account describing IT as a soft mark prank and apologizing for any distress he may have caused. Anyone with additional information is encouraged to call bolder police detective jim, my first sen. At three zero three four four one three three three zero.

I'm sorry. What was that?

Is that?

Yeah yeah. But I think i'm confused. I thought the signs lived in border.

Yes, I know the skins did live in bolder in one hundred and ninety six. They were the ones who the ranges stopped to .

give that present the last Christmas. They lived there for a little bit.

Yeah, they lived at their house for a little bit after and some we somehow some reason the skins end of moving to atlantic either at the same time as the ramseys were after that the remmel is moved back to a analyze. The timing is unclear, but they do like pick up their their family, their lives and move to a letter.

I love you so much. We've never moved together.

We ve got a lot of moving. We've never followed one another. I interest because as of monday, march seven, there is this time article that published that day where the article is not like what matters like it's talking about, like the cost of tuition recover.

But glendin is quoted in that article, but they give his title and he's the vice president for finance at the university of colorado, which is like a pretty sweet gig to walk away from. But so I think I know people move before that. The article says that he was a senior budget official at pen from like I think was like .

eighty two to ninety the car.

So lots of reason to leave, right? Like, yeah. So maybe he left colorado to go to another university like I I don't have record of where he went after colorado, so I don't know.

And again, not a referenced book, but like the tiny is interesting because the scandal of that the book was investigating was a sex scandal at the university of colorado.

He is not the right, no, but it's happening .

at the university and there's a cover up and there's money involved.

So maybe also the same way he could have .

bit like interesting timing.

that's all yes. And say so the same reason like I mean, I didn't understand wanting to like leave pan or something like all the reason to want to leave or I find a new one. So maybe not that's why like I could never like I don't didn't understand the timing of IT, but like maybe something was going on if you never say that he was really believed.

And moving to a place where you really know people.

it's good at that IT is like when you when you think about that, okay, if my time here is like i'm onna, pick up and leave, we can go anywhere. It's good to go to a community where you community really give some kind of a friend, like grounding you, whatever.

It's so much easier like integrating into a new life and maybe they thought about like going to their friends who like who's who you know they they become really good friends, clear they were living together, like they're going through such a hard time. And maybe part of IT was not only for them to have the community, but prefer them to like, support these new founding friends. And the rims still needed to support because even though they weren't physically in bold, like I didn't, none of IT stocked like the personal attack and stop the being hounded by the tablet didn't stop like they follow them across the country, no matter where they went.

I even found to actually one of the tablet articles. It's by these two guys, David, right, and David duffy. It's from march eleven, one thousand and eighty, where someone had taken the same plane as the rams is from one end of the country to the other, just too like report on their remove, like who's that wear, who looked at who, who didn't look at who? How were they interacting? Like who got off the plane wear? Like they were all over them.

So I understand for the ran sees against with skins, may be they want to go support them. The ran ze's just needed to get out of there, but they did the thing I will say to everyone's, oh, they like, how do you leave when this investigation is going on for your daughter? Do you would be a part that they did have boots on the ground on their behalf in bolder.

So limit is on their team by this point. So he was an investigator who was originally brought in by the D. S. Office to look at this case. He ended up leaving because like the official capacity, because he got frustrated, he felt like everyone was so nearly focused on the family that they were like missing.

The bigger picture was not enough being done, right?

And this just straight up devoted his like life to jomini rams this case, honestly, his family legacy to this case, because even after he died, his family has gone on to continue his work like they've picked up the torch, they were actually a part of this really, actually interesting podcast. I listen to call the killing of jomp rem z, which I will linked to, admittedly, dly, I would have first came out. I saw IT and I avoided IT.

And I think it's like so much this cause, like I already know I can live like why we rehashing this and I was like, you know, the page of pictures of her. But once I was like diving into IT, there was actually a time I didn't know in that podcast about potential suspects and about the work that loose Smith has done to were heated his family did to like, go down those paves to things put order. Who should we look at? Yes, but I elusive is like all over this case.

And I think he really gets people for the first time to think about, like if it's not the end is not just like, oh, it's not the reams es, but really think about like, okay. If not, then then who and how and why the. Confident that the intruder came through that basement window, IT was already broken. So they could just like region, unlike IT open IT up, like he even demonstrates how easy IT would be for someone to, like, slip down into the der webs. Yeah, I don't the spider webs you like, do you, anna, just give a click a break down of the spiders webs.

There was like this great thing covering the area to get into the window. And there were like officers who said they saw spider great. He said, I had been there for a while.

Someone would have messed up if the Green had been moved to get into the window. I never really see anything like to fully refute that. I think maybe I heard once they said that maybe the webs weren't like as fresh as they thought yeah like .

they were saying that um like if someone had to move the great and then put IT back, they would expect the spider we B2Be mor e fre sh loo king yea h but the int erpretation you get fro m peo ple who are giv ing us the int erpretation of thi s is tha t the y had bee n the re a t he y wer.

e mor e lik e cob webby.

There aren't any any pictures. We don't know what that looks like. Didn't find her body for our also maybe truder was like the most lucky.

It's like I don't have enough information to like see for myself to like make my own opinion of this. So you just have these two sides right. The one saying, like IT is impossible for those who spe ripe to be there and for your theory to be right loose.

Being like IT means nothing like despite to me nothing. This is probably they got in. And there's also like this third option. We're like maybe neither like john in early days, like there.

And this is we're like the conflicting early reports will be like a they say he told them that he looked up that night. But in all of john statements afterwards, he's like, we left the doors, I don't know, I checked them like we leave the doors like partially unlocked. There could have been other entry points for this person to coming to our home. And I also said lots of people had keys or like keys were missing or floating around, or this person had, like, we never got this keyed back. So all that to say, in my mind, build that was like, very much lose Smith theory, is he had to do with this window, them dropping down, them using this, the suitcase to, like, get in.

And now the window is not the only.

I thought the only option if you are thinking about the intruder theory. So like I don't want to like die on the hill or get so caught in that that again, you can't look at the bigger picture. And there are some other such that loop points out that we haven't really got into yet.

And that is the cord used on jump on her neck and her hands that is never sourced to anything in the house. We don't know where that cord came from. Same thing with the tape that was over her out like that, never gets sourced to anything in the house. So elusive mind that means that someone had to have brought those things in or taking them out if they were already in the house.

Verses like the legal pad that was left there, the pen paint, things that were source house, but also left .

and left right. So I I don't know that you can say that they like, didn't we just don't know there's nothing there. So they they took something with them.

Is what lose saying like? Or we would find them here even if we step away from the evidence in the home, because truly like you could go back and forth, back and forth back and debate this to your blue in the face. I told you, is there.

I don't want to argue about the meaning of IT. That's not my job. I wants to get to the facts.

So in two thousand, three more DNA testing has done. And from her underwear, guess what? They get an unknown male profile DNA like before. But this time IT is enough for a full profile, good enough to put into cotis, which I don't aware. I was like sleeping at the wheel before.

I was like deep in this like, hi, I don't even realized there was a profile there, of course, have been no matches or we would have heard about that right now. Yeah, it's just sitting in the database, hopefully still in that was actually one of my questions I wanted to ask balder pd because I have seen in other cases that we've worked where the requirements have changed over the years. And i've .

seen where like the DNA was and .

then there was changed like an update and nothing. But in all that time, no hits. So in later years, additional testing is done by some other crime lab and even other like outside of the state agency, like body A B S, still to in a ton of geneology stuff, a ton of advances.

Testing season of justice works a lot with them. So boy comes in. They do some more testing and they get an an identified mal profile from her underwear.

And lots of people say, here's like the Candy out. Lots of people say this is from selva and they might have done an analyst test, which can Emily can be found in slide. I can also be found in other things, but usually like the levels are so much higher in saliva.

So I don't know if that's where they like that comes from of like we know its side, but because IT wasn't any other fluid that they was like definitively link IT to. And I can get like too far or I like I am afraid I want to say something wrong because that you get to really technical. So what I can go back to is what is very clear in my mind, and what I do understand is that when they do this testing, they find more DNA.

We know we've got the DNA in the underwear, but they have also test like places on her long john, specifically, I think, places where they think if someone was down the upper and and they're able to get touch DNA on the outside, on the left, in the right and on one side. The uni dense fied malone profile that we have in the underwear can't be excluded. So we can include, exclude on the other side. It's too small that I can be included or excluded.

okay. So we don't .

know anything. Well, we know that IT might match. We know that the the DNA underwear might match or is at least consistent with the touch DNA on the outsides.

Now I think it's important that there is this, like note that the DNA might come from more than two contributors, which I actually makes reading the results like for my understand even more complicated. But I I keep going back to like the word like consistent because I almost have to retrain my brain. Because what I had always heard in the public and from like statements and self is that we have a match.

We have the same DNA here, here and here. And IT is not a match. And that you can say one hundred percent. These are like the exact profiles. I cannot exclude that instances.

It's enough to be like in my proof, like it's it's still very interesting that we have unknown mail profiles in all these places like but like, let's be clear, make sure we're using the right language. Now IT is powerful and of a find that the older D. A at the time, this one's name is mary lacy.

SHE actually sent the realm s. Is a letter of apology me. SHE actually sent IT to john ramsay, because by that time john told me that pi had lost her battle with ovarian cancer. So once again, this letter is slightly edited for clarity, but this is what he told john eva letter.

july nine, two thousand eight, mr. John ramsay, as you are aware, since december two thousand two, the older district torney office has been the agency responsible for the investigation of the homicide of your daughter joanne. I understand that the fact that we have not been able to identify the person who killed her is a great disappointment, that is a continuing hardship for you and your family.

However, significant new evidence has recently been discovered through the application of relatively new methods of DNA analysis. This new scientific evidence convinces us that IT is appropriate, even the circumstances of this case, to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife pi and your son burg, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime. I wish we could have done so.

Before mr. Ramsey died, we became aware last summer that some private laboratories were conducting a new methodology described as touch DNA. One method of sampling for touch D N A is the scraping method.

This is a process in which forensic scientist scrape places where there are no stains or other signs of the possible presence of DNA to recover for analysis. Any genetic that might none. There's be present.

We contacted with the body technology group, a highly reputable laboratory recommended to us by several law enforcement agencies to use the scraping method for touch DNA on the long johns, that job, a war and that were probably handled by the perpetrator. During the course of this crime, the body technology laboratory was able to develop a profile from D. N, A recovered from the two sides of the long Jones.

The previously identified profile from the crouch of the underwear warned by job bene at the time of the murder match, the DNA recovered from the long giants at boat unexplained DNA on the victim of a crime is powerful evidence the matter of male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes IT clear to us that an unknown mail handled these items despite substantial efforts over the years to identify the source of the DNA. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that job in I was wearing at the time of her murder. Solving this crime remains our goal, and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching DNA.

However, given the history of the publicity surrounding this case, I believe IT is important and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not sponsible for this crime. Based on the DNA results in our serious consideration of all the other evidence, we are comfortable that the profile now in code is the profile of the perpetrator of this murder. To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry.

No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the core of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law. I have the greatest respect for the way you and your family have handled this adversity. I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion, but DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find, and we rely on IT often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes.

I am very comfortable that are conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all the evidence, including the reliable forensic DNA evidence that has been developed as a result of advances in that scientific field. During this investigation, we intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime. What the sympathy do you because of the horrific loss suffered? Otherwise, we will continue to refrain from publicly discussing the evidence.

In this case, we hope that we will one day obtain A D N A match from the cota data bank that will lead to further evidence into the solution of this crime. With recent legislative changes throughout the country, the number of profiles available for comparison in the code data bank is growing steadily. Law enforcement agencies are receiving increasing numbers of cold hits on DNA profiles that have been in the system for many years.

We hope that one day soon, we will get a match to this perpetrator. We will, of course, contact you immediately. Perhaps only then we will begin to understand the psychopathy or motivation for this brutal insensus crime respectfully. Mary lac, district attorney, twenty judicial district, both colorado.

So there's been a profile in coats for like twenty years with no heat.

No, it's not a single one. And now there's an A, B, C news article saying that they checked that profile against everyone in the family, along with two hundred other potential suspects as well, and all of them have been excluded from this profile.

In that same art of actually mlc kind of gives her theory, which I believe is like close, if not exact, what the rams subscribed to, which is at the Christmas party or not Christmas, someone home wrote that note late and wait. They had plenty of time. And when the rem s got home, they waited over to to bed, so they are sleeping.

Or now lus. Mitt also strongly believe that a stun gun was used to subdue her. I'm sure that like this theory, like part of .

the theory, has become pretty popular. Aren't there like like little Marks right next to each other on her back that now so .

there's the two Marks, there's no burn Marks, which I said to be really common with stun guns, which is maybe why the original pathologists just noted them as a brains IT to. There's like a lot of back and forth with this, like was IT a sun? Was IT not loose mates like confidence.

So there's actually this point where is recommended to the rams is like, oh, we should explain and have someone else look at her now that we've got this idea. Like, could someone always like, look at this and went only to say with a more critical of you but like with that in mind, but the ranges don't want to do that. Now keep in mind this is happening like a lot closer to so like there's .

it's not like we're talking to a lot .

of loose Smith seem to be really on board with this like, yes, let's do an examination. Let's get a second autopsy but I think was barber walters when john and pathy went on, they were just saying, like we don't want to have her exams like if we just buried her like .

that lot of trauma yeah.

it's too painful like we want our daughter to rest in peace and in in their mind there. Like, you have the original pathology report, you have pictures of this. Like, everything we need is here for you to even come to this conclusion. Like, we don't need to exam.

So with the intent of theory, I get the what in the hell of the idea, I think IT like lines up IT makes sense. There's elements to IT that makes sense. But I guess that leaves us with like the two major questions left, which is who and .

why we join you .

at first look with my .

so there is no ones. There are two routes with the intruder theory that I have heard the rami camp discuss. One is like this idea that this was a pedophile, some kind of sexual deviant all around, scaring mother, roaming the suburban streets of older, don't get me wrong, like scary mother is like every brand of the person who did this.

But around this year, what they point to is the paint brush being put in her, the choking around her neck. And I would hear Lucy that he believed he was hit in the head after he was choked. I think I said that, like, so all of that, that's one potential avenue theory.

Why the other is that he was someone who hated john ramsey. Like the note was clearly about john. Everything was addressed to him. And like, when I SAT down with him, he even talked more about this theory. I feel like then the other told like a lot like he gives keep saying like they seem to hate him.

but then the sexual stuff doesn't really make any sense.

It's like my best friends because literally I added to that and and he agrees he's like, i'm like, okay, but john, if they are like if they if this is about you and your business and they don't like you, why did they have to do you're saying all of the other stuff like was sexual it's not a staging IT was sexually motivating. So like why that doesn't make sense? Me like, no, I I can't make sense.

Things can be treat the same time.

yeah. But I think I think what you've said before, what I think he would say, what I know that they ve said before is like, you can't make sense of someone like this. So we've set up before, yes. So like, no, this doesn't make sense to us. But does that mean IT couldn't happened like that?

So you gave us two possible wise, but without really landing on wine, how do you even get to.

I think IT makes you less really wrong, but really long. I know. As part of their defense team, the reams t is actually hired john dougall, the father of the B, A, U. John dos, consult on the case.

He firmly believes in their innocence, like I actually asked him for interview, he couldn't cause of some family things, but he had told in an email that he was never asked to provide a written profile to either the rani defense or the, but he provided his analysis verbally to both. He thinks the border pd even recorded IT, but he said he could tell that even when they were like hearing him, they still seem squirrely focused on the family. But he firmly believes in the range.

He said, and I actually, he gave us a quote to make his position extremely clear. He said, there are no words that can describe what if family goes through when their child is a victim of a violent crime. However, what is profoundly dly, even worse on top of that is to have your child murdered and then be wrongfully accused or even convicted of killing your child.

The ramseys are not murdered, but victims. They are victims of investigative incompetence as well as intentional and prejudicial news coverage. I worked many cases where parents have killed a child, but this is not one of those cases.

And good. So to go back to the hill, if you know this case, you ve heard that santa, the santa santa a, is the santa from the ramseys Christian party on the twenty. They were all a lot of really odd things about him.

His family like, just like circumstance. Al things, you're like, oh my god, those things IT just like lined up in a very strange way. There was even oppositely job, and he was even telling people that, like, santa was going to make a special visit to her after Christmas, which was like a thing that everyone pointed to a lot.

There were pedophiles that were found within the pages circuit, like there is one that services to the top of the list, but not until years later. But when this one comes about a kind like prove what people were screaming all along like, very scary people poster job in a and other children throughout pages, because it's actually like the guy who was like her photographer for her pagan stuff, and a being like a prolific profile, like he has wild imaging out that was you. So there is that whole segment of things.

There was a guy and named glib a who like early days fest killing and people want to say handwriting is like a close and again, she's only one that couldn't be excluded like I saw this dude legers handwriting. It's like scary close to the ransom note. There's another guy named john mark carr too.

I remember .

those headlines in the thinking .

this could be at.

yeah and I was, I was huge. I member being so huge because he was like, living out of the country at the time. He is a thing.

I like a bits and pieces from the headlines from, like what I was seeing because that we were a little bit older at that time. But I never knew the full story about john mark carr until I saw the netflix stock that's coming out november twenty fifth. And we actually got early screeners.

Like how they got to him was while and like I I know if a thousand times you we're going get tired of me saying IT like when you're deep in a case like I could point to you think there's going to like one person who looks so good for IT. But then i'm like I could tell you stories of like five people, ten people who have I only told about santa with her like paget photographer with john mark carr. Like they going deep and it's so interesting, it's stuff I never knew.

I don't actually want to like exploit all of that because like the netflix dog is gna be out really close to and releasing this. I encourage everyone to just like go watch that for yourselves. And I mean, I don't want that we were hard to be thought be here for so long.

I don't want to been too much time because at the end of the day, we also know that no one's DNA has matched the profile they have. Not even the pet of I don my car science like like not even the two hundred people I told you. They compare DNA to whoever this was there they are ghost and without a name and a face to associate with the crime.

IT is left a lot of really for old rumors to maybe like surface again, at least like there's run begins underneath. And those rumblings got very loud in two thousand and thirteen when the daily camera started reporting that years after the grand jy convened. Remember the grand jy back in ninety nine OK? So one two doesn't thirteen.

They are saying like maybe things were as they seemed. Alright, so jars confirmed to the daily camera that there was actually an indication that came out of those proceedings back in one thousand eight ninety nine. So here's that.

This came about a reporter in charlie brennan and the reporter's kivi for freedom of press filed a lawsuit to have the documents from the proceeding unsealed. They had been sealed like most brander things, like since one thousand eight ninety nine. okay. So when that happened, there, eighteen pages that I sent to a judge to review to see which ones could be released and what needed to stay seal to protect, like what a grAnderson is. And in total, four of those eighteen pages were released to the public. Count seven on or about december twenty fifth and december twenty sixth, one thousand nine hundred ninety six in border county, colorado, john Bennett rami did unlawfully, knowingly and philonous ously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, punishment of such person for the commission of a crime.

Knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death asked account seven accessories to a crime a true bill signature redacted no true bill count four a on or between december fifth and december twenty six, nineteen ninety six in border county, colorado, john Bennett rami did unlawful ly knowingly, recklessly and philonous ously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health which resulted in the death of john bye ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen asked account for a child abuse resulting in death a true bill signature reduction no tribal count four a on or between december twenty fifth and december twenty six, nineteen ninety six in batter county auto paul rami did unlawful, knowingly, recklessly and philonous permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health which resulted in the death of jamba a ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen asked account for a child abuse resulting in death a true bill signature rejected count seven on or about december twenty fifth and december twenty six ninety six in border county orto perea paul rami did unlovely knowingly and philonous ously render assistance to person with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime knowing the person being assisted as committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death. Asked account seven accessory to a crime, a true bill signature reacted. No true bill. I don't know what the other counts were or why they weren't unsealed. But well.

like, I mean, how did the D A get away with saying that they didn't get an indictment .

because he didn't say that what he said is important because like.

the wording is .

specific on so he said, quote, the older grand jury has completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed. The grand ders have done their work extraordinary well, bringing to bear all of their legal powers, life experiences and shutters. Yet I must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time.

So it's careful word like he was going to say he stopped himself and this became illegal st up because sun said by law he was required to sign the endpoint and then if he wanted to move to dismiss the charges he could have but just not signing them win anything he should have been able to do. Now other analysts say that the law was more ambiguous. I don't know, I don't if your has heating, but mine is like and listen, the burden of proof to indy versus commit is I completely made different inditing just means like hey, there's like the abundance of evidence says that something probably happened. But when you go to trial.

you have to be to prove that I actually .

did button up beyond a reasonable doubt. So I get an indictment that doesn't necessarily lead to a trial. But like other things, in this case, IT is the way that I was handle that just feels shady.

So after this comes out, the intern enters bera. And here is where I like, I do roll my eyes a little bit. You guys like, just because I cannot be everyone, I feel like IT can be. IT can't be.

Mom did IT like because of a wedding accident and dad did IT because, like, she's getting lesser and worked did IT because he ate the pint like IT cannot be all of the things IT can be santa. And on the infection and jam mar car, like IT feels a little like the world kind, just like latches onto a theory for a while. And if that doesn't go anywhere or they get bored, they like pick a new thing.

But it's not things like all of these are real people who I say again, cannot all be guilty or all murdering her. So I don't think we have the right to say that we know what happened when we just straight do not know what happened. But at this point in our story, like the world is coming for work and maybe I think a small part of IT like that, at least like sponges, is this isn't like a brand new idea, but like the way the certain indictment s that they did release those counts, they were ones about assisting, about placing her and harms way, like not actually inviting you for murder yourself.

And so I think IT gets people being like, okay, wow, if IT wasn't them, like who would they be assisting? Who would be protecting? And the only other person that we know if in that home with her nine year old brother, and this reaches like peak crazy in two thousand and sixteen, when two things happen, one berk s on doctor fill and two cbs releases this like ridiculous special reinvestigation the member, so like, I hate to ruin TV for everyone delegated zero reinvestigation.

He was basically just like one of the books that had been written forever ago, just rehash. They were all just like sitting around the table getting paid. But they say that in this, like the investigations have this like revolutionary theory, that burke was up that night eating pineapple. John and I tried to, maybe the e some. He got mad vector in the head with the flashlight and then, like everything was staged to cover up for him.

The pineapple we're in.

we're at pineapple. We're at the pineapple OK. So we know there's pineapple in her stomach that cannot be explained. Any version of any events that we've got ten.

every single story does not include.

I could fire a four days here because without adult, there is more to what happened that night that we just do not know. Like this is the one thing I can point you to be like, we don't have the full story. Now IT could be that he just got up and got to herself, or that someone else gave IT to her.

IT could be that someone in the house that could be in the house, that could be someone not in the house. But he did not go right, too bad, and then die like treat a pineapple can all agree on that. So there is a bow of what looks like paper and condense milk next to a glass of tea on the table that was photographed by police like the house that day.

Like when they're processing the scene, when they fingering print these things, it's taxi and burk prints on the ball and on the tea. Neither claims to have gotten like gotten that out or eaten IT that night passes suggest that maybe when they had everyone over, like someone got that i'd like the morning of because he does know where I came from. I like I don't know why.

Like this is like stuff in their home. Like I don't get like two hung up on patch printing on a ball and maybe less like the housekeeper put everything away. But I think about like .

unloading the dishwasher yeah or getting something out for work .

like so we see this in in an image. We think that like okay, IT could be the pi IT also could just be someone else .

is inefficient. And then we still don't .

know where the pineapple of her sum came from. But there's also a mag light found on the counter in the house, which it's been theorized that I could be the murder weapon. But there's like zero forensic evidence on that magnet textually support that it's the murder weapon.

No one knows why the light was taken out. No one knows where I came from room, even they don't know that was the razors at all. But in the cbs thing they are sure IT that burke hit run with this flashlight or some flashlight and IT must be true because show another .

hitting a waterloo with IT IT.

It's like, awful. It's not attend detective here, guys. So so that's going to come out two thousand and sixty before that comes out.

John ramsey gets a call. He has a new lawyer. By this point, he is cozy up with a guy.

They become he, at least he's like with him legally for a long time. He is his name is lin wood. He's also another fun google, if you have a minute. Lyn has been representing john as john, and pi, like a family, has been like suing the tablets who publish really defamatory things about the family. Well, linwood knows film magra OK doctor fill and so doctor film, supposedly according to join, like gives them a call and it's like, hey, heads up cbs, the network that on is about to do this where they take A M at work like you should you work should come on my show and like, say, your peace and what does and the world just eats that kid alive yeah.

I remember watching this and it's almost being painful to watch and then watching what happens after IT was like even worse. And I I feel bad empathy for him because like he's already going through a lot in his life and then to be on camera IT changes so much of like who you are, how you react.

like what you say didn't grow up on a he was like.

customer is like the best of word I can think I like, didn't see burke tablets.

We didn't see book. And on the new john, something they were really intentional about, they wanted him to try and have ick as much of a Normal life as they could, would really protect. And they moved to a land of a while.

They end up moving from inDiana back to charley. So he grows up in this like small michigan town. And so he's not used to a camera like IT IT does. IT comes off awkward. IT comes off weird.

It's a little uncomfortable, but like pick any number of reasons why that is and there's been like feriz ing out the wizard but like someone's not guilty of something because they smile too much like great. I'm sorry. No, no.

And i'm sure the way that we saw like john apathy prep for their interviews, i'm sure there was some prep here and like, listen, dr 点， i was like throw soft, that's the one thing I will say and but got his he says he doesn't know what happened, sister, he certainly wasn't involved. He said his parents were good parents and that this is all the media circus that has like, kind of ruin his family life. So there's so many things that I just like.

This interview means he do. He says this one thing, that leg. I am like, did I miss? Like what did I hear that? right? So he's talked out to fill and and I like, I actually just want to play the clip. I think you're dad and said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, then you snuck downstairs to play. Yeah.

I had some toy that I went to put together. Remember being downstairs after everyone is kind of bad and want to get this thing hour.

did you use the flashlight so you would .

would be seen out a number? I just remember being downstairs. I remember this toy.

Did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball .

bat or flashlight?

This is .

not a version of any story we've heard.

ever, ever heard. And I asked john specifically about this, because in my my name, like, oh, my god, this is like, if birth is downstairs, when all this had, like, did he hear something? Did he see something? And I asked on about this.

And again, I go back to, like, I know john impassive media training. Like, did they just like throwback to the wolves without IT? Like doctor phil says that john downa told him this so I asked john about IT and at first john, john was like, oh, no. Like that so much has gotten misreported that's not real and I said, no john, like doctor fell says you told him this and then burke responded and agrees and says, yes.

I was down the stairs and Johnson a said.

like, I didn't .

know that okay.

so I asked him, you know, in our interview I was like, I know people have talked to broker. They have a lot of child's psychologist at the time trying to like, you have to handle that really sense his I know those people were talking to him, but did at any point you in actually have conversations with him and like john, like immediate, they shoot IT down like, no, there's no way he and actually that's not what i'm saying. Like when when we were Young, like we grow with siblings, i'm like the others a world where he's downstairs even if he was IT say that all of that was like doctor fell weird slip up. There's in my mind things that like kid see a relationship .

and a bond that like siblings have and you don't necessary like put the weight in them as a kid.

yeah. And like like there are things like I knew about my siblings, like I saw them in a different way than my parents all. Then I saw the way that we interacted with other people differently.

My parents are like, also kids really good tune to things like that, like that. You know this so much. You especially, we, like two people, are ignoring you as a kid.

Like you just pick up on a life that I asked him. I was like like there could be something he knows that he doesn't even know. He knows if you've never talk to him in all these years. And john said that, like, he is confident that birth would have told him if there were something so mean, I think that you're like, how do you how do you baLance that of like trying to do right by your one kid, trying to get justice for the other one.

And I think what he he is trusting that work would tell him something if there were something to tell, or if, you know, years and years and years on the line, if something comes to him, like he's gonna come for to his sister, he he loved the same way the rest of his family would. So after that, cbs special, so doctor fell, then there's a cbs special. Linwood represents work in a seven hundred fifty million dollars wassup against cbs.

And in the suit they lay out, they they call the statement of fact. And I will say they do try to correct the record here. So I mean, there is like numb when they state in the fact they like list to these different things. In number twenty nine, IT says that berk exercised his right of reasonable response by granting one interview, two doctor filmer, in which he denied any jane's murder.

So I actually think like like there is a legal strategy even coming into this because he would have either, I believe, if I understand that right, had to have give statement to cbs in some way, like in response, like and they are making or have like publicly stated. And he'd never done interviews before. So he had to give IT interview to someone.

So I think there was part of the reason he came forward when after filling ven a call like he needed some statement out of are saying like he had nothing to do with his sister death. Now the other thing is its number one thirty and one thirty. He says that burke was not awakened during the night and burke did not leave his bedroom during the night. So unless those facts were chAllenged, which I don't believe they were because they ended up settling, that kind of becomes the defect record. So even though we have work under fill saying him and down stairs, we have this like legal document where they are saying that the fact is he didn't wake up and he didn't go down stairs and on .

paper that I think the lot .

but I wish we could talk .

to him ah because I would you like I I think he did anything but there is just so much yeah that my siblings would do that. I would do that. They knew about that. Our pear just did like it's as kids you kind of live in your own world like below the the line of site of your parents in a certain way.

I think if there is something to say that he can say, he'll say that I know he's met with investigators like so is not like he hadn't even like talk to police. He did. He's met with trial psycho logy.

So yeah, i'd to go all the wave back to your question of like how do you get to the hole? I don't know. So you know we shared when we met with john like we shared our information and obviously told him like if if work is open to talking and he doesn't do interviews.

And john said, you know, he's in adult, if you wanted to do IT like you will. But we even heard from them. So I don't know to get back to your question of how do you get to the hooo, I think you just you got to to start shipping away at this case if I think that's what certainly lose Smith was doing with his work as what his family continues to do.

And i'm going to link to the podcast that I mentioned. I think it's interesting, the kind person by person that they were actually going out there in collecting DNA samples from these people, ruling them out one by one, suspects that, like, I had never heard of, and even usui t like, sand my car. Clue that this list behind that, people like, made of a people he thought were worth looking into and in the order he thought that they should be looked into.

And so that's what they're working off of. But mean, you have to wonder if the name of Robin is Taylor is even I know, or if like the other question I have is, like, has the DNA let us a strain? Because there was a thing that recently happened in colorado that has me, like all kinds of nervous for this case.

So in twenty twenty three, IT came to light that IT analysts at the cbi law, this woman, amy ivan, missy woods SHE, was manipulating the DNA testing process like this investigation is still ongoing as of this reporting in november twenty twenty four. So far, they have found that SHE omitted material in official criminal justice records and tempered red with DNA testing by altering or omitting some test result from the case file. So far, they haven't found any evidence that SHE falsified any DNA matches like god so far. But that is all from cases that he worked between two thousand and eight and twenty twenty three. Now they have to go back and look at paper records from nineteen ninety four to two thousand eight.

So SHE was there the whole time of joy's k is .

yeah and listen, not all of the DNA testing was done by like state agencies like the long dog came from boi, but there was definitely some pretty critical work that came out of the crime lab in a city which has me shop. Because like if this is a DNA case, like losman and the realm s you say, what do we do if the DNA was wrong?

This is not the answer that anyone like to hear, but you have to start all over.

You have to I don't know if you can now. Okay, here, here's two things. So i'll say I asked john about this and he says that he's been told by, like, the people who give him information over.

He's been told that confidently missy woods didn't work on the rem c case like so he feels confident that the result have not been sued by whatever he was doing I mean, like in my mind, the investiture so i'm going elect, I don't know, but he he told me he is companies has been told not applicable here like we don't have to worry about IT. But if we have to start all over like the good news is like there's even Better forms of testing like you think about all the geneology stuff is being done now. There's no mention of utilizing this technology to assist with the case yet, and john rumsey said in my interview with him that he is afraid because he's trying to find out where the evidence is.

Like what can we do? Not right? Like starting over or not starting over, like there is new testing that is to be done.

Yeah and he doesn't can't get australian answer. He says about if the evidence is secure where IT is. So he doesn't know like his biggest fear is maybe someone lost IT or maybe they're protecting .

someone has to protect mother.

I don't think I was looking for border, but everyone says that they're committed to looking out for body. I'll say there was a cold case review. Um this team was brought in in recent like twenty twenty three there said you have made recommendations about how to move the case forward.

What those were if they're being acted on unclear to me. We did like I said, we reached to the D. S.

Office and the older pd surprised i've had nothing juicy from them. So obviously the'd declined my offer but they did give a statement. So the D.

S. Office pao said, quote, the murder of Jordanne ramsey was a tragedy. Our office has successfully prosecuted cold case homicides in many other murder cases.

Our office appreciates the continued collaboration with C, D, P S, C B I, the F, B, I and the older police department. As with any cold case homicide, the overarching goal is to look at the facts and evidence with fresh eyes and an open mind. Armed with the latest developments in forensic science, the presentation to the cold case review team generated helpful recommendations.

Our office is continuing to work with federal, state and local agencies to make progress on this tragic case and walked balder pd gave us this statement. The killing of jambon e was an unspeakable crime, and this tragedy has never left our hearts bolder, police chief Steve redford said. We are committed to following up on every lead, and we are continuing to work with DNA experts and our law enforcement partners around the country until this tragic case is solved.

This investigation will always be a priority for the bolder police department because this is an open and ongoing investigation, the bolder police department is unable to give any interviews or comment on specific aspects of this crime. We continue to investigate and encourage anyone with information to contact detectives at boarders most wanted at bolder colorado dop. Gub or by calling the boldre police tip line at three zero three four four, one one nine seven four.

As for john ramsey, he says that he is fighting for his daughter in the last few years. He recently started doing more interviews and his l design, john y. Andrew, has even gotten really involved as well, and there both featured in the new documentary on netflix.

They are pushing for authorities to do more testing. They've met with authoring labs themselves. They feel that geneology could be the thing that this case has been waiting for if the evidence is still there. And john hasn't gotten an answer about that yet, and that is where he asked for crime june's help.

Like I think this is something that no matter where you come out on this case, like this is something we can all get behind because there is unknown DNA there and we have to find out who that belongs to, because there is no world where anyone could be prosecuted in this case without that DNA being explained. Now, john n. Also says that he encourages people to write to their congressman about something called the victims of family's rights act.

They were signed into law federally by joe biden in twenty twenty one, but john said that he needs to be passed in each state. And what this would do is IT would allow families of loved ones to request a federal review of their loved ones case after it's been called for three years. And this is something that he says that he wish es, he would have had.

So I mean, I asked him if he's going to be pushing for this in chlorate. O, he's moved out of state now. But and the case is still, they are, but he says that he doesn't have connections in colorado anymore.

Now john says that he has heard that they're just waiting for him to die so that this case will go away. But if I believe one thing about this case is that it's not going away anytime soon, we are not going away. So if you have made IT to the end, thank you.

Thank you for being a crime junky. Being a crime junky means that you're into more than just the headlines, and there is still so much more this case. I would encourage you to go check out the network documentary is dropping on november twenty, twenty twenty four. IT is called cold case who killed jane and you can go right now or youtube if you're listening, you can watch this episode or you can go check out the interview that I have with john rmc is available right now.

Today I didn't tell you so when I was, when I was there for the interview, yeah, I am walking back from dinner to my hotel. And I like, I see this restaurant and I like the part days. Why are you a possible? Why shut up? I'm like, why do you know poster jays and i'm like, oh my god, actually you ve been living in the .

job in rams case like that's .

where they had dinner on Christmas is yeah their friends with postage and I was like that so strange and so i'm like google. I'm like, I didn't know of franchise. It's not a franchise. It's literally in bolder and then weird job lives. And so the next day he said something about, I came when I was, yeah, my friend owe passengers and I was like, yeah, I was going to ask you about that I saw last night and he's like, oh yeah and by the way, mike, by owned the hotel, all that you are saying that. Crime junkie is an audio chuck production, so what do you think, chuck do you prove?