【柴静访谈】前“明星检察官”出走海外：“我们之所以一路溃退，是因为过于恐惧”

2024/12/7

柴静 Chai Jing

People

杨

杨斌

柴

柴静

Topics

杨斌：我与许志永仅一面之缘，但他说的‘让我们一起为中国做点什么’令我印象深刻。我敬重他为中国所做的一切，因此冒着风险收留了他。我作为法律出身的检察官和律师，能够预判事情的后果，我认为最多也就是被拘留24小时，这是我可以承受的。我的行为不构成犯罪，因为许志永并非在逃，我也并不知情。被捕后，我内心平静，因为我相信我做的是正确的事情。警察中途改变主意将我送回，可能源于体制对我的某种善意，这其中既有情分，也有他们对我的顾忌。我曾被体制表彰，这无形中也是一种保护。我成名于一起杀害女婴案，我为被告人作出的从轻处罚意见，受到了上级批评。我认为检察官等职业角色背后首先是人，其次才是社会角色，两者并不冲突。我以个人良心的名义所做的行为，不需要任何人的授权，任何人也无权剥夺。2011年体制内较为开明，内部对重庆“唱红打黑”争议很大，内网讨论尺度超乎想象。我曾希望未来的司法改革能够摆脱领导的干预，只受法律的领导。我做任何决定，唯一考虑的因素是自己是否诚实地面对自己。我认为自己代表着体制中应有的模样，而非异类。我微博发言的底气，来自于我从业21年从未收受贿赂。我被调离公诉人岗位，是因为领导认为我‘太不消停’。我大哥认为我这种人社会需要，只是不幸生在他家。我认为自由就是可以对违背你意愿的事情说不。离开体制后，我失去了体制的庇护，但也获得了相对的自由。我将律协告上法庭，是因为体制在管理和服务时表现出的双重标准。我向老东家检察院提起申诉，认为体制内部也有渴望改变的人。我与律所发生冲突，是因为律所主任要求我删除文章，但我认为没有法律依据。我律师合同到期，是因为律所主任对我工作方式不满。离开律所后，我在农家小院从事公益事业，帮助刑事案件受害者，特别是儿童。我认为发表言论时，首先应想到自己是个人，而非党员或律师。我平静地面对监控和国保，不认为他们是敌人，因为本质上都是人。我律师证被注销后，在法院门口摆摊维权，我认为这是中国法律和司法的屈辱。我担任河北大午集团法务总监，是因为我认为在当时的情况下，没有律师敢介入孙大午案，这是一种悲哀。即使知道结果可能失败，我也依然会坚持起诉，因为放弃努力会看不起自己。我认为孙大午案开庭前后社会舆论一片死水，令人悲哀。我选择离开中国，是因为害怕被体制‘废掉’，与其虚度生命，不如去看看世界。我虽然失去了很多具体的东西，但我获得了自由，这是任何东西都买不来的。我认为即使在体制内，像李克强这样的人，也未必能发挥多大作用。我希望即使在异国他乡，也能为中国做一些事情。柴静：许志永被捕并非事件本身令人意外，而是他被捕的地点——杨斌家中，令人意外。杨斌曾是中国著名的‘明星检察官’，央视曾对其进行过报道。我提问杨斌为何庇护许志永，并说明自己没有考虑庇护行为的后果。

Deep Dive

Key Insights

Why did Yang Bin, a former prosecutor, decide to shelter Xu Zhiyong despite the risks?

Yang Bin respected Xu Zhiyong's actions and believed that China needed people like him. She stated that she acted out of respect for his work, even though they were not close friends.

What was Yang Bin's reaction when the police took her and Xu Zhiyong to the detention center?

Yang Bin felt calm and believed she was doing the right thing. She was prepared to face the consequences, even if it meant being imprisoned.

Why did Yang Bin receive criticism for her handling of the Zhou Muying case?

Yang Bin advocated for a lighter sentence for Zhou Muying, a mother who killed her infant, arguing that her actions were a result of societal and systemic failures. This perspective was seen as critical of the system, leading to criticism from her superiors.

What motivated Yang Bin to leave her position as a prosecutor and become a lawyer?

Yang Bin sought freedom and the ability to say no to things that went against her principles. She felt increasingly marginalized within the system and decided to pursue a career where she could act more independently.

Why did Yang Bin sue the Lawyers Association?

Yang Bin challenged the requirement for lawyers to obtain a no-criminal record certificate from every place they lived since age 14. She argued that the system was inefficient and unfair, highlighting the disparity between how the system manages and serves individuals.

What was Yang Bin's perspective on the Sun Dawu case?

Yang Bin believed that intervening in the Sun Dawu case was meaningful, even if the outcome was uncertain. She felt it was important to challenge the system and provide legal support, especially when few lawyers were willing to take on such politically sensitive cases.

How did Yang Bin view her decision to leave China and work abroad?

Yang Bin saw her departure as a way to avoid being stifled by the oppressive environment in China. She valued the freedom she gained to speak and travel, which she felt was more important than any material losses she incurred.

What was Yang Bin's ultimate goal while working abroad?

Yang Bin aimed to continue contributing to China in some way, even from abroad. She focused on improving her English and finding a role where she could still make a difference, despite the challenges of living in a foreign country.

Chapters

该章节讲述了许志永被捕，以及他为何会向杨斌寻求庇护。杨斌作为前检察官，其选择冒风险收留许志永的原因，以及警方后续行动和杨斌的内心感受。

许志永从杨斌家中被带走
杨斌与许志永仅一面之识
杨斌出于对许志永行为的敬重
警方最初打算将杨斌与许志永一起带走
体制对杨斌的善意

Shownotes Transcript

“一个对政府最直言不讳的批评者，为什么会向一个司法系统工作过23年的前检察官，一个共产党员寻求庇护？”

这是《纽约时报》报道“中国社会活动家许志永被追捕期间从广州杨斌家中被带走”时，提出的疑问。我深感意外。杨斌曾是中国著名检察官，当年我所在的央视栏目大篇幅报道过她。所以，警察拘留审讯杨斌时的提问，也是我与杨斌对话时想知道的问题。

同年，杨斌被注销律师证，不久她以法律顾问的角色参加了著名民营企业家孙大午一案，那是她最后一次参与国内法律事务，”目前她是海外一所大学法学院的访问学者。