Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult
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What is your daddy game? IT is your founding father, alex Cooper, with call. BEthany joy lenz, welcome to call her daddy.

Thank you. Your book dinner for vampire comes out this week. congratulations. How are you feeling?

I feel proud of IT. You know, the people often ask me, are you excited? And i'm thinking, excited is not the right adjective because I it's not a story that I was ever really dying to tell.

It's not like I thought, oh, this is this is great material. I just live through something traumatic and you know, you go through therapy and you want to just work through IT in your private life. But that became part of the healing, was recognizing how related my story was to so many other people who hadn't been in something as dramatic as a cold.

And yet, somehow I was finding myself in conversations with so many women in particular, but so many people who had found themselves in this kind of dynamic yeah relationship. And the more I had that conversation, the more that brought healing to me. And then when the opportunity for writing a book came up, but just felt like this is the right thing to do, it's also what good are our mistakes if we can't. It's honestly one of the things I love about you and listening to your show is that there's this sense of like an open mess, like and it's dept.

Don't take that long way. It's actually .

really wonderful and really comforting to see somebody just living in this space of, I don't know, and and also look at this stupid decision I made and look at this weird mistake that I made. And oh, we're not alone IT.

we're not alone. And I and I really appreciate you coming today because I I think you're right and talking about there is something that you've gone through that maybe at face value to people, or I cannot relate to being in a cold, but the themes that you experiences throughout this moment in your life are so relatable. And are these very tangible experiences, so many women listening and big yp p yp P I been there so we're gone to get into IT.

Um I mean, I just have to those like I was saying IT too downstairs the book is incredible and it's so fascinating because you do talk about your childhood and your relationship with your parents and one tree hill and oh by the way, for ten years you are in this calls and I think it's important ant to kind of go back to what let you to this moment and then we're gonna na go all through IT. But let's get into IT. How would you describe yourself as a kid?

I was, I had a huge imagination. I was lonely. I I had a really, I guess I was kind of like an old soul where I think I always had this senso.

This too shall pass. This moment is not the biggest thing ever. And that helped me a lot in the filling alone, feeling the solitude. I don't know why I seem to always understand that as a kid but yeah so so there was this comfort in knowing that there was something bigger out there. Another was another day coming. There was hope and um it's OK to just be alone and and I learned to enjoy my own company, which was a huge gift as well. That is a gift.

why? why? Why would you say you were lonely?

I was the only child, and my parents were wonderful, but very Young and doing the best that they could at their age. We had addiction in the family. We eco dependence.

There was, there were so many dynamics at play, and everybody was just trying to stay a float. So, and we moved a lot. So I was hard to maintain friendships.

When you looked at your parents relationship growing up, like, what did their relationship feel like to you? Was a very loving, was a toxic, was IT.

What was like IT? Was IT, was tense, was very tense. I think they really love each other. And as you has, as so many of us discover that those feelings of love are often fleeting, and you have to build on something more.

And they both had a deep connection to their faith and really wanted to build their marriage on that. But you know, they grew up in that. They raised me and and they they had come out of that eighties movement of eventual ism that was so IT promised so many things without giving you a foundation of a real relationship, moment to moment with god.

There was no sense of in terms of my experience with that movement, which I grew up in, there wasn't a lot of space to B, M. S. And to make mistakes and to just like figured IT out day by day.

Ah IT was a lot of hero. The rules that you need to live by. And when you accomplish all these rules, then you will be happy. And they believe IT as well and then discovered, oh, following all the rules all the time isn't actually working. And then the marriage became really tense because of that and other factors.

How do you think you're like watching your parents dynamic like shaped your view on like love and marriage?

Why would a great question. Time and and know it's gonna therapy .

and elements were my glass for you.

okay. My I think that I think that IT became an unsafe place emotionally because I didn't know what they're dealing with. You're too Young and understand that the dynamics of a grown relationship and so IT became a mystery to me and I was like, I don't I don't want this dynamic the sort of one person's really calm, one person's really hyper um and they're constantly at each others throats and there are so many problems and IT just was like, this is they're figuring so much I D I Better just kind of raise myself OK and then then going into later in my life, as I started, I got so boy crazy because then you're looking for something to fill those holes and I don't know what what I did to my view of relationships, other than to know that I didn't really have anything models for me that I could look at and be like, that's what I want. How do I do IT? So probably spent a lot of time fishing for answers in all the wrong places, I mean, clearly.

but IT is helpful to hear you just kind of like talk about the foundation of what you were like living in this house and just watching your parents and knowing you wanted something different, but not knowing exactly what I was because I think understanding that is important to what we're about to talk about yeah and how you got to wear you .

got to yeah I just I want to a place to belong IT was really hard to feel like I anywhere except the theater you which was, you know, that's why I went into that field. But yeah, there was a lot of that.

There was a lot of my parents trying to protect me and which ended up being gasoline without them knowing IT a lot of, hey, what's going on? Is everything okay? And I met with, yeah, everything's fine and which a lot of us do with our kids, right? You want to protect your kids so it's so natural to go, no, no, everything's find everything is okay and you don't realize you're denying the child's reality. You yeah, something's wrong. We're not having a good day.

but IT will be OK, right? You're constantly trying to understand. You can feel IT like, you know when somethings off like kids are so into IT and then you're asking your parents like please let me in on what's happening in our family dynamic and then not allowing you to know that also probably like created a false sense of reality of like you're than having to, like, finish the sentence for yourself because I know it's not okay, but they won't tell me. So I guess all just again, be alone, go into my room and create whatever my narrative is going to be for myself because .

that's all you can do yeah and actually what I did was I must be wrong. Like, I feel like some thing is wrong. I feel like something's off.

I can feel that in my god, but everyone is telling me that everything is okay, so my god must be off. So when you start at a Young age to believe my god is off, I can't trust myself. I can't trust my own instincts. IT makes IT a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you.

Let's talk about the big house family called so you were in your early twice then you move to L. A. You're pursuing acting. How did you end up meeting this group?

Yeah so I was in L. A. I went with, I went with a girlfriend to um to her battle bible study that he was going to was very benign IT was IT was the same kind of rival study had been going to having been raised in the western eventually ical church.

This was super common. Wedding night at night meetings you just show up and it's like an addition to church. It's the way of sort of keeping the church going beyond sunday.

And there's music and food and everybody talks and gets vulnerable. And I felt very, very Normal to me. So yeah, at first I was just nothing to be suspicious about.

And what are you feeling like you were wanting? Because once your friend brought you, then you kept going, and you like, what were you looking for? And you kind of like starting to join this group.

I was looking for a place to belongs stone. I think that was the constant search, where do I fit? Where do I belong? And I had moved here.

I'd lived in new york before then, and I lived in new york, felt t like homos, you know, in jersey for eight years. And the manhattan then. And I felt like a new yorker, and I love the creativity there in the polls and just felt so great and moving to l. Everything's really spread out, and community was harder to find. So I I was in need of community.

yeah, which I think is a really Normal thing. I have so many women writing to me being like I moved to new city. I don't know how to make friends.

And I think a huge thing that people look for our groups to join. Like can I join? So like, so right like we're going biking over whatever is like you're trying to find a community that you can feel .

a part of some your tribe .

yeah that and that is Normal. You write about when things really started to go downhill, was a man named less entered the picture, this group, and he kinds arted to take control of the group that you were seemingly R T A part of yeah what was your first impression of him?

My first impression was um that he was just kind of A. Jolie guy, mean, I didn't think much of him. I I met him across the room, and he was some.

Just another face that I was meeting in L. A. His whole family was with him when we met. And I I do remember having this like check in my gut and I thought I was because I all right, i'll be really on a, yeah I thought I was because I didn't like their faces. Have you never met someone really .

just like I don't like your food because you're trust .

or something like fuck off but I get you are saying .

there's just something about you like.

huh yeah and I in the whole family I just there was something about me that was like I don't like their faces and then and then I felt terrible and I was like that was judging myself joy what in you and so that was my first impression was just here's a family of people i'd never met um their friends with my friends. I don't like their faces and I am a jerk for that and i'm gonna over IT and let's get to know each other .

I love the honesty, dear like something up for meanwhile it's like you had that gut feeling but again, from a Young age you were kind of taught your god is wrong yeah. So don't think that there's anything wrong with this person. You're fine. Joy keep.

Yeah yeah. And IT couldn't be my god. IT has to be something else.

What is IT face?

IT, yes. right.

So once less kind of took over, can you describe to me how, in the beginning, just like a dynamic shift, like what changed when this man kind of .

came into the picture, IT started moving from something that felt very communal and very participatory, like everyone was participating. And if IT takes time like IT, he couldn't have just come in and changed IT overnight. You know, there there was a slow transition.

IT took about a year now that I been retrospect and able to look back at IT. And IT was slow. He started spending more time with us.

He started investing in the lives of the group members. And the people who were there are a group members. I guess I was just the the friends that were gathering and started to lead the meetings.

And he was a pastor without a church at the time, which I found out later why you have to read the book to find out. And so felt like, all well, what wasn't amazing opportunity? We have to give this sweet pastor without a church a form to speak and to share the things that on his heart.

And I felt encouraging and felt I was being chAllenged and called up to be more than I was currently living in a spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And that was exciting. I think it's .

important to like as we're going through this journey. And obviously, there's so many more details in the book, but I I really appreciate you clarifying that. It's like there was not a moment someone walk through the doors and it's like this is how we're going to do things now because every human being in that establishment would have been like this feels Vicky and wear.

It's just like when we see an abuse relationships where people that are manipulative are very good at knowing that is a slow burn. So you don't notice IT immediately. It's just the slow moment that also send you wake up when they wait. How did this? How did this happen?

And so so .

hearing a year of this person just kind of coming in and lowly, getting closer to everyone and like settling down roots and making you trust this person was the beginning days yeah, something you wrote about in the book. And this was kind of when things started to get more intense, you write about how you were told that independence created an an internal rebellion against god. Can you explain what this meant and how this, like, impacted your life? And this, like you.

yeah, there there are so many things in the book that I hope for people who grew up in this faith. Hopefully it'll be a little easier for them to spot the healthy versus unhealthy versions of things, which I thinking, so many problems. There are healthy and unhealthy versions.

The unhealthy version of that is. Independence is bad, therefore, anything that separates you from the unity with the group or translated to abusive relationship, the person that you're with translated to a work environment, your work community. um. Anything that's inhibiting your ability to cast off yourself and serve other people in favor of yourself that's problematic and that needs to be addressed and shut down. Does that make me IT makes so .

much sense? And I appreciate you kind of showing the different ways that can show up, not just again, like in a group setting, but like an in a relationship or work like I think everyone listening, daddy gangs like we've all bent there where you start to feel like your independence is either being threatened or you find yourself getting too wrapped up in something and then we all have that moment.

We pray that like we I was losing myself like we've all said that at some point our life. But how far did you go before you realized you lost yourself? Everyone has a different experience and there's a different parameter. And I get what you're talking about here is like you are being preached like stop living this independent life, rely on us, the group .

and you you believe IT I believed IT because IT felt like, yeah, I don't want to be out here floating alone, doing everything on my own. I have blind spots. I mean, do you have blind spots? We all have blind spots.

That a reasonable thing for someone to say you. So OK, i've got blind spots. Well, I need community. I need people to help me see what my blind spots are. So if I live in in super independence and i'm not allowing people in, so I have to live in this place where I trust other people to see things for me that I can see. The problem is, of course, if you are allowing the wrong people, a person, to speak your life in that way, then they can just rehab, can say whatever they want. And so it's a very fine line.

A and do you think joy, like, that's why I was unhappy you wrote so much about your childhood, the book, and we lightly talked about in the beginning of, like, you reference this lyonne ss, that you felt as a child. And I think anyone that you can be so independent that's so different than being lonely. And I think when you experience loneliness, we've all experienced IT again, to what degree everyone has their own situation.

But like you crave, we all crave human connection, and we crave feeling apart of something. So having that been, so integrate your child to have feeling a and being an only child. I can understand you like seeking out this feeling of like safety and comfort and people that care about you and are bringing you in ah the cold though and how we talk about we started with the independence. They used a lot of very loaded language that you came to learn like bio family. What did that term mean?

Joy bio family, that's the part where everybody runs out the door, right?

Like that's why I lose you guys in the story. Yeah, yeah.

I was IT was far into the story by then. We were so. And I think what I wrote was that he didn't have to be super less character, didn't have to be subbed about IT anymore. He could just start saying things like bio family. Bio family meant the family you were born into, but was not necessarily the family that you may have been called to be a part of, called spiritually into.

I do think a lot of people are more I sound to be like I can choose my family yeah so like I understand the concept um but I get we are saying now it's like IT was a whole different level of manipulation that .

was going on. The thing you understand the concept, yes, so many of us do. Where is the it's a pain to go be with my family for the holidays because of all that.

Not i'm not saying me, but to me ever say that and and I want to go to vacation with my friends because that's my family. Hey sam. Hey, chosen sam.

You hear IT in church all the time. What's up? Family were a tribe.

And what what's so insidious about IT is that when someone uses something like that to say, actually, we're separating you, it's not just a it's it's not just an extra club that you're a part of, yes, it's actually creating that um suppressive person is another term. You know that that space of like you are separate, you are other. We are here. This is real family and that is bio family.

And now let's talk about that because that is again now where like that differences is important. It's not just like we're another extended family. Can you talk to about how they encouraged you to distance yourself from .

your parents? Yeah, it's slow, man. Like IT doesn't again.

Yeah, i've said this core a couple times um marketing santa who was in nexium he has this great quote in the vow he's in the kitchen is like nobody joins a cult you join a good thing nobody walks into something and says, hey, I can't wait to fuck up my life where do I sign so IT happens really slowly and they there were things like a small comments dropped a lot of things like, hey, how is your time with your mom? Uh, I was fine. You know, like usual, whatever.

Yeah, sorry. It's that's tough to not have A A great relationship with your mom. Yeah it's okay. I mean, she's my mom yeah but you know don't forget like where your family we're here for you and just you just on a different on a different path, she's on a different way.

Okay, so that's the easy one, right? Like that's the first like, okay yeah ah yeah I can see her. I can be have space for her and then it's like, well, well, did you talk to your mom about that? Yeah I share IT with her. Just might just be careful, you know, because you're just spiritually in a different place than her and SHE may not be able understand and I would just hate for her to be sowing things into you that are not the truth of your identity and you know, generations are powerful and so just just be careful.

Oh gosh, I I had fought of that yeah okay and then that's a little seed and then and then the next one is, um yeah I like your mom shi you know she's really sweet but um yeah SHE just really doesn't understand you and I just encourage, you know he doesn't understand boundaries joy, so just please make sure that you're protecting your boundaries and you don't need to call her back if you're not ready to, you know you know, just because she's demanding something doesn't mean you have to give IT to her all things that sound reasonable in the right context but you that's why IT takes time because it's not just something you can say to somebody. IT has to have to gain their trust. You have to I had to, to believe so many other good things.

I had to see more mornings with coffee sitting on the front porch talking about philosophy. I had to see parenting moments. So I do see so many things that built these, this illusion of trust.

Yeah, that when someone who is an arca ist shows those things into you, then not to use Christians are weird terms. But whatever we all say, this is so. So I still like to guess myself for meal time, as you can see, but it's so much more believable.

No, I appreciate you kind of sharing that gradual conversation, because then I can imagine IT just kept going to the point of complete isolation from your family. I don't I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then I can get, once you fully have their trust like joy, you know you're Better than that. You should not be speaking to your mother because you know she's going to bring you down.

And then it's and again, I think everyone, if we pause, has those moments with their friends right where it's like, you know, your friend needs to break up with their boyfriend, okay, are really simple, simple conversation, your dating game. You know, if you go to your friend and like your boyfriend is a dick, he is definitely cheating on you. You need to leave him. Your friend is going to be like a no. Like, if anything, if you and walking up .

you're not in this relationship, you don't see what he's like three in the morning. So sweet bbb.

but if you we all have that ability and and IT can be manipulated or not manipulative, but I believe with friendships, it's like you know you have to be gradual and easy with those friends. He how are you feeling then they open up to you then the next time, because you know you can you don't want your friend to shut off and you know you won't listen to unless you like lightly, just give her the space to talk and then one day you made, like, what do you think?

And then you open up to like I think you deserve Better I love you so much here about it's a natural human being thing that can be good but what you're describing there was no good behind IT because this person the intent was to isolate you yeah where what the example i'm giving is that I can look the same from outside, but it's really like, know, you want your friend to have the best, but you are also recognizing human beings. If you walk in a room and you say, do this and like, what's wrong with you? It's the gradually that allows people to get into a position where you trust someone, and then hopefully that person is not a manipur psycho to be manipulating you in a way that is like going to fuck up your life.

yeah. And we trust, I think, as human beings, that's natural to be the wildlife. I ve been, you be such a great person in front of.

Why wouldn't I? Just this person, yes, why wouldn't I? I know it's to go for the world mistrusting. Everyone, that's that's a happy way .

to did your parents ever come to you with concern about .

this group up? absolutely. My my dad has was much more forceful and open about IT. And he's a very smart man, is incredibly educated man. So he he had done so much research and he he group in the seven days, I mean, talk about culling that I think .

I know that yeah yeah so .

he definitely was he came to visit once and um you know he was like, this feels weird, but I guess he told my mom like now I think this is a cult. This is bad news. But he was much more open with me about IT.

My mom was really smart and knew how to play the long game, so SHE just kind of waited and watched. And the more than I communicated about that with less and the other people in leadership in this group, the issue was for them to see where my allegations lay lie. And and there was a meeting when they they actually explicitly just told me, like you really should just cut your data, like you should stop talking to him. He's toxic.

And how did you react when you would hear .

that by that point? I was several years in, and I just trusted them more than I trusted my parents. yeah. So I, I, I heard IT.

I didn't I did not do IT then, but I did plan to seed of the people who I have trusted to see. My blind spots are telling me that this is what's best for me. And every time I talked my dad, he's telling me i'm in a calls and he's worried about me and it's starting to wear on me.

And eventually once I got married, IT was easy to sort of pass the buck to my husband and my husband the time and let him deal with IT. Then he just completely shut the door. And I didn't talk my dad for six years. Yes.

awful to condition you from doubting the group you write about how they got control and they would use phrases like illegal questions. Can you give me an example of an illegal question?

sure. An illegal question would be. Maybe I married the wrong person. You're not a lot to ask that question because you are already married done. There's no there's no questioning you just move forward.

That's a big one. wow. And where do we go from there? Shit joy. Yeah um i'm trying .

to think some mother, once you other legal questions would be more like that. I'm thinking, afraid of the top of my head is are more spiritually related. Um IT did god commit to be a part of this family? Did M I? Did I do the right thing by moving up here instead of staying in L A? Um should I have taken this this acting job? The questions that are retrod respective, I guess I haven't thought of IT in that term. But yeah, it's illegal questions or things that would cause you to call the question things that you've already chosen .

and do you can't have doubt about anything essentially?

Yeah yeah, you really can't, which is so IT IT was so damaging getting out of IT being on the other side of that to not be allowed to question where you are in your life, how could you ever grow? Well, that's the point really, right? If you're in a group like that.

they don't want you, don't want you to go, they don't want you to think for yourself. But I can imagine that creates this like numbness and you where you just start to get good at being like almost about to ask yourself the question no, don't ask because that I shouldn't do that and and then you once you create a pattern within yourself, it's hard to revert up pattern yeah okay, we need to talk about one tree. help.

Okay, we need to talk about one tree hill, because I think was so fascinating about this story, is the world was watching you on one of the biggest shows on televisions still, to this day is so beloved. I retouch IT any chance like that.

I love you watch that. You know.

like I am of sss, like I could just pop episode went on again and let's retouch the whole thing, such a fan. But again, IT is so interesting and and IT is really the proof of like, we don't know what people are going through, and we see these celebrities are actors or singers who ever public facing, and you think you know their life. And while you were on the huge TV show, you were also dealing with this hell.

Yeah, can you take me to like what drew you to one tree hill, like you're in this cold at the time that you go to get this job right? yeah. Okay, talk to me. What do you do want to hill this time?

I I was, well, they actually shot the pilot without me. They shot IT with somebody else. I had gotten the script for IT. I IT was called ravens at the time. I turned IT down.

I really wanted just focus on film and um and I just said this is I just got off a soap up for in new york. I want to try something different. So I turned IT down a couple of grounded pilots later.

I came back around and they said they're recasting. They're shooting in two weeks. And will you please go screen test for this role? So I did .

love how involved because I think again, when I just want to like clarify, like when people are listening to this and hold on way. So you're in a couple but you're still aloud to work. Like I think people may get confused of like how attached you need to be at the time, like you're allowed to go and work can be without these people. Do you really mean like, yeah, explain how involved they were in your decision to take the show and like.

how did that work at the time? Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, that's one of the things that also made IT so insidious as that IT wasn't a joice put on this row and lets go all live in the forest together um yeah there there was still a lot of autonomy I think that sort of how he kept everybody locked in because we were all really smart. This wasn't a group of of people who were not smart, like everyone was ambitious and had careers. And so he had to have known coming in that this is not onna work. If I try and ask everybody to just move up north and be live with me in this, where little house speak house so yeah IT was very much um communication based on daily activities, hanging out lunches, lots of phone calls and email chains and texting wasn't as much of a thing back then but we were in constant community and communication with each other so IT didn't feel like I mean, I don't know that he had to work that hard in that regard because he meaningless yeah like dad gang, I always want you to .

say that daddy gang judg it's your woman.

Girl, yes ah yeah. So I think that was it's not like the traditional cult when you think of that were not living on a commune. I mean, there was a big house that several people all lived in at once, but they were also their own families with with jobs and other things going on that they all lived nearby. Yeah does sends .

something help. I I completely understand its like there's someone constantly in communication with you and so if anything like when you're starting a new job, everyone feels like oh no friends here you had this safety not in the support system that was ever present.

So IT didn't make you ever feel like you are alone, which is huge to have yeah especially when you're going on new ventures in your career and feeling like, oh, I am a little lot of place. You're kind never out of place because you have this support system. Yeah, you played. Hello, James. Sa, in what way is did you relate to your character?

Initially, I really related with the sort of awkward grown next store of thing, but that felt very comfortable for me. Um IT felt like who I really was deep down and wasn't ever allowed to be because a lot of the roles I would get was blinded and I had a big personality. And so I would get a lot of the these sort of leading lady parts, you know, only parts.

But I always felt like I even say in the book I was like, I feel like a dumpster, like trash panda, like cleaning dumpster. Let us out of my position. I ve always just felt awkward and like, weird. And so IT was fun to available to step into this character that felt actually so much more like me than what I was usually getting cast for was fun.

If you had to say, what do you think was the most iconic Haley James Scott moment? I know it's so hard.

Give us one. Oh my god. okay. I I mean the most iconic hai moment. It's hard because so many of them were with James Laurence dy, um I know that that kiss in the rain when they, when Nathan and hay first finally get together and they just like, I just have that kiss in the rain in that holes with holes in IT and freeze zing, cold water was pouring down on us. That was so fun.

like the reality, everyone, you thought IT looked .

like red and James and I had ever kissed before and he was seo seventeen and I was a cro robbing at that point. And you know, IT was just awkward, your slashing teeth and trying to know you're Young kids, just like, how do we kiss each other on game?

Obsessed he was. He was one of the most psychotic scenes. And I feel like I do think of that when I think of you guys said that was a good year. What is your favorite memory just from the show?

There are a lot, but there are not as many as I wish there were, because at at some point I can just checked out emotionally. But I would say early on, we there were always hurray e warnings and hurrying e an actual parkins that came through and when IT wasn't too bad, but I was enough that they were like, everybody just go inside a little while yeah we would often state someone's house and the electricity would go out.

You'd like candles and sit around and hanging out and meet at the waffle house and be like, well, we got the next four hours of the waffle house. Somebody bring a decor cards and you hopefully the burners won't go out and we can keep eating wafs. That that was fun. That was early days of bonding when I was getting to know each other, are trying to figure out who who was who, who fit well. And I really love that IT IT makes .

my heart break for you that you, you know, just said, like there were not as many as I wish I had because obviously you did the show for so long and you write about in the book how well you were filming the leaders of this cut that you are part of told you not to trust your coasters and to essentially stay away from them. And how did isolating yourself affect your dynamic on set?

Well, I think I just became. Someone that nobody really knew had to connect with. When the cameras were rolling, my guard all went down.

I was hundred percent present. I was there. IT was a major converse for me actually, the the ability to just be completely free and vulnerable. Yeah, so that's one of the reasons why I loved being on the show and why I feel like I saved my life in a lot of ways, because I was kind of the only place in my life I could actually do that. But when they said cut and we went back to just sitting in our cast chairs waiting, I I would only let people in so far.

And I think again, people in abusive relationships can relate to that too because you there's too much at stake if you allow in someone else's perception, judgment, ideas about your relationship or the relationships that you're a part of in your life. So whether it's a group of people are one person, a lot of people who are in abusive situations will hide the abuse because. Like I don't know why i'm living in this misery, but I don't want your opinion about why i'm living in this misery because then i'll have to maybe really deal .

with that in a different way yeah almost like you kind of your so you are aware that something is often weird but you're so in in like immersed in that world like protective .

almost .

yeah that is kind of like you you know that people wouldn't fully understand the extent of IT so it's not worth letting them in at all yeah but I wonder, like on that set with all these, like Young people, like did you have moments as much as you were like really being manipulated by this code? Like did you have moments like fuck, like what what am I doing like, or where you still couldn't really .

see IT at that point? I couldn't see what am I doing. I felt mostly superior to other people and and I felt mostly like they just can't understand.

And i've got an answer. I've i've figured a minute any cut that the idea is we've got something special that you don't have. Unfortunately, that really covered a lot of my relationships with people.

But the thing is, your god never goes away. I don't think so. I still felt the sense of self loving. And like it's an unending letter that you're just constantly trying to climb, to achieve, to do the things that are gone to save you or whatever you're trying to, whatever enlightenment your level you're trying to reach.

And I was so in that zone that everything I did was every interaction I had was was color by that. And I did at the same time because I had this sort of self loading, I also really. I guess that maybe was jealous of other people on the show too, not the way that women are jealous of each other ica shaye.

But more of the freedom to be a mess, the freedom to just explore life and ask questions that weren't illegal, and just the freedom to, like, live your life. Yeah, I was jealous of of the freedom to live life. And and I, but I was so committed to my belief system that I would never allow myself to cross over into that. And I think I just created a difficult dynamic for having a relationship like a joy just has a you can only go so far there's a there's a wall .

when now when you look back, like if you rope honest with yourself because you can now see IT in a different way.

like what do you think they all thought of you? Well, I think they thought that I was stubborn and a weird and in a cold.

Eventually, yeah.

eventually. No.

they knew, they knew, they knew because I think they probably felt .

really bad for me. How soon? And do you think they know? Give us two years?

two. So yeah, I would say by season too, they were like, I think this is a like, a calls, and this is like, probably bad. I, did anyone ever try to say anything to you why? I did have one really good friend who was, he was one of the set p and SHE.

I trusted her so much, I think, honestly, because he was catholic and he was the only religious person on set. And so I was like another religious person. So you may not be long spiritless as I am however you like.

Do we need to do see the last?

Really, i've got a great guy.

freedom.

yeah. So dark but I did trust her and SHE and her husband were wonderful people and um my husband at the time and I used to hang out with them all the time and we would go over their house for White nights and IT was like a safe haven and so SHE definitely tried in SHE again was like my mother very smart long game like knew I was involved in something unhealthy and just wanted to slowly present question but SHE knew you couldn't push too hard or I push her away um really, really good friend and um I so appreciate that but nobody else on the show no nobody ever said. I mean, Tyler once just flat out came out was like, are you going to call stop I love him so much stop and that should tell you so much about his personality so great .

someone that you like.

What did you say? No, I was like, well, I hate that people can understand the depth of relationship that happens when you find your chosen family and you just commit to them. Why is IT have to be a cold? Why is that I have to be weird, like I feel so bad for you that you don't understand what it's like to have this kind of depth of relationship. How sad in shallow must .

your life you doing? Not even now. Joy, I like my god, like shit. But I could see how people around you then would just like rothery yes, you like literally walking back on side, like there's no point.

So you can you have again, we have all been there when someone genuinely believe something so deep to their court, there is no point to try to change that. Everyone is on their own path in journey, and you ve gotta let people figure that out on their own through their own time IT doesn't mean they didn't care. But I can imagine it's like, what are we all gonna up an intervention like, yeah here to do a job. She's nice when she's around us. That's all we care about now.

That's IT. IT just became a profession environment and they did I know paul johanson and probably great printer executive producer in a couple of other people had a meeting at one point like let's talk about this or do we need to be worried about her? You know, is SHE financially this looks bad.

Is he in danger? Like, what do we need to do? But I think at the end of the day, they realized exactly what you just said. And nobody can wake you up. But you like at some point, it's just the right .

time you write about how at the time you couldn't be friends with Sophia bush because of your own insecurities and militant beliefs. What was IT about Sophia that made you uncomfortable? I I .

think we were both approaching life from a similar way, but from opposite perspectives. So the motive, I think, was similar in SHE SHE. I am not her.

I didn't grow up as her. But I think SHE grew up with some very specific beliefs about life and healthy should be done and pursued that. And that can also be really wonderful.

But the way that we were approaching IT maybe was too similar. And because the conclusions that we had come to about life and god and all those things were very different, there just was no space for listening. SHE would have been much more quick to listen to my perspective and hear me than I would have been at the time. Yeah, but I think fundamentally, there was .

probably a similarity. I mean, I think for a while, burke, Davis and hai didn't along on set anyways. Are on, I kind of worked. But like was IT difficult on set where you're just like not getting completely along with someone but like you don't know how to .

handle IT in your Young yeah those days were hard because I IT IT was this sort of um and I I think I write about this too innovated um the paralysis and desire at the feeling of like I want to connect with you, I want to be friends with you, why can't we why don't you know how? Why don't I know how? What is wrong and yet we have to show up and pretend like we're really close.

And so we're going through the motions of close friendship, but not actually knowing how to connect. It's hard. It's hard. I mean, I think you could fill out an in romantic relationships too, where you know you love someone, you know you have all these things in common, you just like, why are we not what's going on yeah why not working yeah but especially when you're that Young and you have so many other friends and so many of the things, at some point you're just like.

I don't know yes, yes, you like all good let just leave what is yeah have you guys talked about that? And like just kind of gone through everything that happened back then .

in the day or a little bit not not as much as I would like in on drama queens, we have definitely talked a lot about our time back then and what was hard and how great IT was to reconstruct the feelings of unraveling things that were so mysterious to us at the time. But now it's it's an ever evolving journey. There are still plenty people in my life that I and shame is a tough thing, like I one of the reasons why I really feel passionate about telling the story hours before I was so reluctant at first. But I think shame gets smaller and smaller. The more you expose IT and the more you just open up and say this this is my mess like but even having conversations with my step sister or like my little brother and having those moments of, like, hey, I disappeared for ten years and i'm really sorry like I don't i've had those moments very briefly, but it's painful because it's shame.

You know, I can't imagine joy honestly like and I appreciate you talking about that because I feel like again, back to an abusive relationship like IT takes so long for someone to just even like, get back to you can even get back to who you were because you are so Young so it's like, who am I without this abusive situation that I was in first so long?

And I think like the repairing of the relationships from what I understand from a lot of people that went through a long abusive situation is like it's almost just a huge, heavy thing that you know is sitting in the corner, very like fuckers. I got to make sure i'm really good because then I I first have to make sure i'm good. So then I can begin to rebuild these relationships.

Because if i'm still not good, then it's like, what is the use of reaching out and having these difficult conversations on top of that, the difficult conversations you do kind of have to acknowledge what happen and it's again and it's again and it's again and it's like taking accountability and also like asking for Grace and understanding. And it's like there's no right way to get back into a relationship with someone after being a different person in the relationship. And it's like it's a lot I have a lot of empathy for you.

Thank you. I I you you're speaking so eloquently about IT and I it's really interesting to talk with you because I feel like even just hearing the way that you're phrased ing things puts things in perspective for me that you know I lived IT. It's all in my brain in the jumble. But as much as I was able to put on paper my thoughts, there are still so many things that are tangled that I still try and unwind.

But what you were just saying about needing to feel like i'm good, i'm OK before I go for me, that was more isolating, like I needed to connect with people, not even necessarily in in a way of the hay clean me up you know that was obviously have to do my own work but um experiencing the Grace the ega said and that the forgiveness and the looking across at somebody who's just like I made mistakes too and it's okay like we're all doing that. That's welcome to being a human being. Hello, good morning. welcome.

I think that's the biggest moment that a lot of people in abusive situations have this moment with the like. Well, I thought everyone good was going to never forgive me and turn their back. Yeah and everyone is like we've been waiting for you.

Yes, like we love you. Welcome back. yes. And I think it's like a bling because again, when you're in the abusive situation, the abuse er makes you feel like none of them love you. They will be they will not be there if you leave me and the only thing you have until you believe that and then the minute you leave, everyone's like, oh, my d who's who's going to catch her first here we're ready with open arms, and that must be very overwhelming.

IT was that was the biggest shock leaving, because IT has to get so bad that you're willing to be alone in the world. Rab, ve, and stay another second in that situation. And then turns out you're, and then IT turns out you're not. It's the biggest surprise and the biggest gift.

We have so much still to go there. We're not there yet. But that makes me so happy to know because I think so many people listening or like, oh, my god, I needed to hear that because they may be sitting in their car listening to this, going home to that abuse or being like, wait, yeah, maybe this is the sign that like, because I do feel that right now I feel like I only have him.

I only have hurt and then it's like, yeah, they are making you feel that way on the one tree hill thing, because I do know. And I talk about this a lot with actors like there is this like voyage tic thing that fans become obsessed with these dynamics, and that I was asking about the of a thing IT was interesting scene. You write about IT in the book because we all felt love with you and her and all the characters on this show.

I have to ask because it's color daddy fans are speculating that things between you and Hillary are not great, not anymore, don't follow each other and the media. I don't want to get too much into IT. I know it's like this is your I just wonder if you have anything to like, say.

about IT. I I love hilary. I have always and will always, and I don't have any problem with her theyve been some bizarre ous understandings that I really hope we can figure out one day. But I, I, I love that grow.

yeah. Thank you for sharing. Have you had any conversations about signing up for the reboot?

Know this is way too early. Even talk about that. okay.

No, I don't know if that was a press released or something league or I don't know. I mean, i'd heard about that. We go back to.

hey, we go back. okay? Good to know. Too early, too early, okay?

I'm curious now back into so you're in wintry hill, were watching all of the success and then the rumors obviously started. Is he in a call? What is happening? How was that like affecting your career outside of entry hook? Cause I knew you wanted to do more things. And didn't you have like an opportunity on broadway that they stopped? Like how much did they have a hold of your career?

Yeah, IT was a tough. I was a tough pill to swallow. I me got we started out on the show and I was budding and IT was so successful and know the fans of T, R, L.

And now shows everywhere. And we're doing teen vog. I'm getting auditions for huge studio movies or screen test, rather, was like they were much farther along than I had ever been.

Because once you have that kind of exposure, the studio are much more likely to to sign off on you on their list. And so IT was IT was an exciting time. And I was so far along in in my submission and application to this group that I in the thing was that I was disguised as submission to god.

And so in that from that place, everything about my career started to then function through the group because I didn't trust my own instinct to know if I was on the right path. They're taking the right job. I think we all struggle enough with making decisions, especially if you're somebody with A D H D who is just like I I could stand in front line at starbuck for ten minutes, hates me like so let alone big life decisions.

It's so paralyzing if you know that you can kind of make any choice and it's all gonna out. okay. So yeah there were I I was cast as bell in building the beast and um gave that up at the um at the advice, the heavy handed advice of less the less character in the book.

There were some really big movies that I was on a short list for, audition for, was penned for, and then i'd call my agent be like, you know what, I actually don't. I, I don't want to do this. I don't want to continue auditioning for this.

Why do you think they didn't want .

you to do IT a well, I I think is just control. Like the the more that I worked, the less they would see me. The more that I worked, the more confidence I would be gaining in my abilities, in my creativity.

You know, if I just stayed playing one character for ten years and I never did anything else, then they know where I am all the time. Basically um i'm not gaining a sense of A A freedom in traveler traveling all over the world of not meeting new people because they they had a handle on who was unset, who the people were that I was working with. They knew how to control my perspectives of all people. But if i'm meeting new people, if i'm in new york and and i'm in a new show, if i'm travelling to greece to fill a movie, if i'm there is just no way to control that.

They also controlled your finances.

yes. Mam.

okay, how did that come to be? And did you have any hesitations when you handed over your finances to these people?

Yes, I did. Okay, your gut never goes away. I I got married um to another group member and very Christian tradition may be another religion too. I don't know where you merge your finances when you get married.

I think this probably a lot of secular people who also emerged red their finances when they get married as as a sign of the unity. And we're doing this together like, great. And so that's what I did.

I just did the beautiful Christian wave thing and merged my accounts. And IT never IT didn't OCR to me, of course, that I was going to be taking advantage of IT was more just that got check of leg. This is mine.

Yeah, I guy been working really hard for all of this. and. I'm not sure that I should just be randomly adding someone else is named to the account, but i'm gona marry him. So I guess .

it's okay. So you end up marrying who was the cold leader son and you talk about him as Q B in the book. Um how would you describe your relationship at .

first with this man playful and. easy. Um we didn't have a lot common there. There wasn't a lot of intellectual stimulation, but there was I mean, I was I can run out of options. I I couldn't date in on Christian.

I couldn't um really date anybody outside of the group, or certainly not anybody who lived anywhere outside of that area. So yeah IT just became this sort of arrange situation. Can you explain the .

concept that you write about in the book about spiritual authority .

and relationships ah super typical in many Christian communities. This idea the man is the spiritual authority in a households. So spiritual authority would be, I think, as far I understood in the group, IT was the man IT basically get so last word on everything, and he gets the final say.

And you really are not allowed to question him. You can't question his decisions. You can't know about deep, intimate things in his life.

He has to go to other men for that, but he's responsible for you and he's going to know all the deep, intimate things about your life. That's how IT was presented to me, but not in those words. Otherwise I won't been like yellow crazy.

Let me clarify, alex, but not that was presented. Yeah, yeah. IT was a way Better way that they think about you save yourself for marriage, but ultimately you write about having no sexual desire for your husband at the time. How did this impact the way you understood sex?

IT was so difficult. I don't know how people in other cultures who have arranged marriages do IT. I can only come from my western perspective, but I don't want to assume that that's the only way of doing things.

But for me, based on mayer bringing, and I was really I like I said I was boy crazy like I had a crazy sex drive. It's kind of amazing that I didn't til I was meeting IT felt like this promise that I had been given as a good evAngelical was a big ck. Like, what the heck I thought if I saved myself for marriage, then the promises amazing sex and super deep intimacy.

And nothing's ever is good. And it's just like the best thing ever got created sex, and it's just going to be the best thing ever and then we have sex is like, why do I feel so sad? Why is this not I don't feel and more connected to you. I feel farther away from you.

I ah IT IT wasn't and I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with saving myself for marriage IT was just that I married the wrong person I mean that also is hard to say because an amazing daughter and so is anything wrong like here I am hopefully able to help a lot of people so it's hard to say that any of those choices were wrong. But uh, in the moment I definitely felt like, oh, no, this is this can be IT. This is bad .

when you realized that. Obviously, I know you wrote about in the book, which was very sad about this schedule that was essentially implemented into your relationship. Can you talk .

about that so so wild to even just hear you say that it's sad because no, I haven't talked to a lot of people about that. I wrote IT and just was like, okay, I wrote IT move on, keep going that I to clarify daddy again yes ah that IT was I didn't have this attraction. I didn't have the drive really ever.

We just weren't connected. We weren't to write people for each other. And so because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then ask to go on a schedule basically of like here's how you can.

You just have to do IT just do IT. This is your duty. This is your job is away. Your emotions will fall in line if you do IT enough, then eventually you will find a way to enjoy IT. You will find a way to feel connected and you know it's at that point.

You're like again, the things that you hear if you heard IT right away, you'd be like this shits crazy. I'm out. But when you're that hard down the line and you've so much at stake and now i'm in a marriage and now i'm i'm tied up with, and I have no other friends outside of this group, and i've i've made a commitment and I take marriage seriously, and I made a promise before.

God like this is something I really want to figure out how to make IT work. So I I hate IT IT, but I was like, OK, this is what i'm supposed to do. I will just i'll just make sure that it's happening every we know. Well, he was back in fourth between the pacific northwestern while being in a lot. So the schedule had more to do with when he was in town but um yeah he was IT was a routine that we that I had to participate in in order to keep the peace in my marriage when he .

would come into town, would you like.

oh my god, my god. Like i'd just, my stomach dropped every single time. In fact, I really affected my relationships afterwards, like other boyfriends that I would have when I had to go pick them up from the airport.

I had so much P, T, S, D from showing up the airport to see him knowing that I was going to have to start this sex schedule for the next two weeks or three weeks, whatever. It's so sad because he, like a poor guy, like I never had a shot, was raised by this nurse assist. He's he's threatened into a marriage with a girl is not right for him. He's doing the best that he can and he's been fatal. These lies about men in machismo and warriors on all this shit that like, he was raised in that so IT was just a mess le around.

No IT IT just makes me really, yes, IT is sad joy. IT is sad to hear you because I think a lot of women can relate to that of not wanting to do something, but knowing to keep the peace. That is the way to go.

And it's so frustrating because a lot of people last year involved something, don't understand how to break the cycle because a lot of times, I think as women, we're just taught like it's Better to just appears the situation and just like not cause a problem rather than speaking up for ourselves and trying to get out of IT because that could lead to violence, which you write about in the world. There are so many things that can come from going against the grain. So sometimes you just feel like .

it's exactly what you are talking about with your paris story, by the way. Like that's the same thing that like i'm stuck in the situation I just wanted, how do I make IT? Just go away.

Just get IT over with, it'll be done. Maybe this will help. Maybe this i'll be the thing that brings us together. It's a reasonable thing to assume because there are so many marriage therapy out there who will tell you when they're looking at a couple who's been very for twenty five years and they're not interested in each other anymore, they're like, listen, you have to go through emotion sometimes because it'll help you remember who you were together a long time ago. It's not crazy advice is just crazy advice in that circumstances.

Yes, thank you for clarifying. Yes, that's a good one. Um at this time also I wanted to just like kind of talk about the drugs opposition of like we have hailey and Nathan being this a couple on television. Did you ever catch yourself like loving your TV marriage and almost like using that as a form of escape .

ism from your real for sure I did yes, only in the moments when the cameras are rolling. And so I worked with the story line, I mean, Nathan hail a great chemistry. And so I I lead into IT.

But I think, god, James, I were able to really maintain a totally profession relationship, like I just never, I always sort of saw him in real life as a brother ly figure. And he was lovely. So we never crossed that boundary and I never had to worry about having feelings for like that would have been really, really difficult um but no I but I just .

knew also like because of the controlling aspect of this coat, like were they OK with you like having even just like an on screen romantic relationship where you're having to kiss this coast star? How did that go?

Nobody Carried to accept my husband. I mean he he hated IT, but um he also wanted me to quit acting so I would stop making out with other guys.

Yes, there go. Um okay. So as you we're kind of getting towards like now like the big moment where your going to realize you need to leave. But I want to talk about and I know I love that you mentioned this earlier. There is an obvious disconnect between you and your husband at the time but something so beautiful came out of your relationship, which is your daughter yeah and that you write about so beautifully like she's your everything and so you did get something incredible out of such a horrific experience for those ten years um when you had this child with your husband like had you s talked about wanting to start a family together.

he wanted to. Why wasn't ready? Because I was miserable and IT just took a long time. I mean, IT took long enough for me to get to a place where I felt like, okay, where we're happy enough, like we're friendly enough, IT seems like we're on a pretty good track. So that's just I think we're ready now.

I didn't know when you're supposed have a baby or not supposed to or I didn't know what to do, but I knew that I was not in misery. And I and I wanted, I did want a baby. I'd always wanted a baby.

I always wanted to be a man. But I didn't want to do IT in a time when I was full of emotional turmoil. And that took about six years to get to that point.

So you talk about your onset of one tree hill. Someone's like, are you in a cold? You like, take me to the moment that IT did click for you.

Oh, this is not one big happy family. This is a cold. A when did you realize IT was after the show?

Unfortunately, IT had just ended in november. I believe I was in L. A. In february in pilot season, and I am auditioning up in the pacific northwest.

IT wasn't a life that I was realistically going to be able to live and keep my insurance or the only insurance of and the only income that we had. And all the money was gone at that point. So which I didn't totally know, but they knew. So I think that's probably why my ex and his dad was like, yeah, maybe you should get a problem .

now maybe time to get back on sad look at your job.

And so I yeah, we were we were in our. Hey, and I have been in therapy. I felt more like I would like to talk with someone about all of the misery that i'm experiencing, and I would like that person to be outside of this family.

And as I did that, the therapy was immensely helpful for me and started to teach me about boundaries. And because my x husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapies was addressing with me was, hey, not okay for somebody to be physically violent towards you, around you. This, this is not okay on on a routine basis.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I started to implement boundaries and and I think after that, after I extracted my daughter and myself from a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things from alternative perspectives. My therapy I remember probably two months after that, was like, are we ready to call IT a cult yet? Which was brave of her? And I was like, no, like, I would not be that stupid.

Like, no, that is not me. Guess what? me. Joy, yeah, choose right. IT took I took a minute though I like IT. Maybe I was very uncomfortable with IT and I I had to to really sit with that for a while. But once I once I once SHE said that and all the pieces really started to, like, lock into place, IT became clear that I was really unhealthy.

I thinking, really beautiful also that you're talking about again, to anyone in a situation similar with these teams of essentially being isolated to then be abused and manipulated is the minute you have someone who doesn't want you to interact with anyone outside of the people they can control.

That is the biggest red flag, because you just getting a little bit of an opportunity to speak to someone that is licensed to speak with you and help you set boundaries, which every single human being should have boundaries in their life with other humans. And you're seeing this like IT was such an opportunity for you again, to grow and to recognize like what you didn't want in life. But that completely threatens your x husband's ability to control you.

And so I think that for people listening, I hope you can take IT IT like if you feel like the only person you can constantly turn to is the person who is hurting you the most. That is your sign that you are in an abusive of situation. They need they, they can only control you if you are alone with that, of course you can go to work and you can have friends, but you know that there is a different level of going to work.

And one's last time you actually had a girls' night and he and up tabs on you, it's like so quick that IT flips is like I said to you earlier like, oh, so you were going to work like you can look like you're living a very Normal life. It's just inside of you. You have these guard rails that you know that you can go outside of and it's really fucking difficult to get away from that because you become conditioned.

Yeah yeah. You think that your you think that you're not alone, but the more you your god is telling you, you feel like you're completely isolated. Can you share with us.

and I know we talked about this earlier, but coming back to, like the process of living and untangling your life from these people in this coat, like what was that experience life? Because again, we talk about how it's terrifying and then what was your experience?

IT was terrifying. He was my only friends, so I thought suddenly turned on me, and they were showing up at my house to know for custody exchanges, like trying to intimidate me and like flanking my ax on either side, like goons just ready to watch me already to film me doing I like to have your best friends who view, shared your most vulnerable, intimate secrets with suddenly turn around and like overnight just that's IT you're you're if you're not with us, you're against us. If you're not part of us, you're the enemy and to be treated like an enemy is is from someone who who you ve been very, very close with all of a sudden no conversation no there just was no willingness to see t because the stakes are so high for them too you know like it's understandable objectively, but you go into this custody battle in.

and you write about something that I was really interesting about. Can you talk to me regarding the lawyers and the court and how they reacted to you explaining this called experience to them?

This this is one of the most frustrating things about all of IT, because I I began to realize how broken the family court system is in this country. The saying is, no, Bruce, no case. If you don't have a physical altercation with someone, they don't consider IT abuse in the court. Because how do you legislate or even qualify mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse? Mean that's that's the hardest one two, because the court are like, I don't want to touch anything religious, church and state like now.

I wanna ask you this mostly because I do think it's so indicative of the like exploitive veness of this dynamic and the abuse of like through the custody battle you write about how you to spend so much money in court like around the number. Can you share like how much these people took from you?

But when I was in the group, they took two million dollars from me. When I got out, I had about children and fifty left, which is not nothing. I mean, that's a significant amount of money. But the court costs in total were about three, fifty, three hundred and fifty thousand.

And that was so so I left the group with money in the bank that was already committed to other things like my mortgage, like like the which I ended up time to do a short sale on um like like the irs, like so many unpaid bills and there were lost. I didn't know about that. I had to but I mean that I was absolute financial abuse. That was just a total mess.

So everything you basically made from one tree hill just gone. H.

another relative thing about this for so many women who are in abusive relationships, is the financial tie that they're like, I can't leave, because what am I gonna do? Who's going to pay for my kids? Who's going pay for the groceries? A lot of them don't have a skill because they've been in in a controlled environment for so long. So they're like I can't job, I going the guy controls all the money and I I was going to say my advice would be get out anyway and just trusted it's gonna OK.

But that's a really cheap thing to say because i'm not I don't know every single person situation but I I I hate I guess the heart behind what I am meaning is that I hate for any woman, anyone to be stuck in a situation because of finances and um I know what it's like to be a single mom and not know where next month rent is coming from. And um I learned a lot in that time. I grew a lot and IT did god did always show up for me like something always worked out every month. So I kid, you know, like, I am not here to give you advice, but I can tell what what happened for me.

But I and I appreciate the sentiment of that is like leaving something bad that you will find, something I believe in the world, that you will find something good that comes to you when you can get out of something like that as we're kind of like finishing this conversation. I feel obvious ously.

I I want everyone to go read your book and and there's so much in IT that is so even more detAiling of like how someone can get into the situation because I am so understanding that at face value, if someone can roll the eyes and like, what do you mean you were in a coat? Like you asked for this like again and that's why someone needs us into this ebisu and then the big he would have never mind fucking crazy. Um but can you share like what do you think the biggest misconception people have about cult is it's .

the same misconception I had, which is why I didn't think I was in one because that's like no culture crazy people and they all lived together in some weird big house and they we are the same thing and they're they're sleeping with the leader and they are all you know he's got a million babies with all these ladies and they're doing all kinds of crazy should and drink and weird things and they don't interact with the rest of the world.

It's everything that you think of from one thousand nine hundred and seventy flower child's, you know yes, bizarre world's calls. Uh, and we have we've come a long way because a there is no real a definition of a cult. U key even use IT in court the word calls, it's not viable, you have to say high demand group.

Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah there's no legal definition of cult like houses. And my guess is a cult Christi's M A soul. Like I said before, I ve jim just saying, I know some people get real hype, don IT. So everybody .

get there.

No, there's no definition. So it's it's like we've used IT as the slang for things that are super weird.

That is so helpful because they agree that people picture like clocks and like, yeah it's like woody ship one tree hill, we're all watching you and it's all going down like IT is just you can get into a situation that you don't even know what IT is because it's presenting at first as this loving .

person that's wanting to just .

be your friend and help you out yeah so you get out and now what i'm curious um kind of like the aftermath of how has your experience of going from being so controlled and manipulated by these people impacted your now ability to trust people .

brilliant question. Yeah but then now on that, I mean, it's it's really difficult. Yeah I I joke about IT a lot.

I'm like I just anybody now, but I don't just talking about this over coffee this morning with a girlfriend. I don't want to go through the world as someone who doesn't trust people. That's not how was supposed to live.

I do. I really believe that's not I supposed to live. I, I, I also am really grateful for the lesson that it's okay to give people the benefit of the doubt, but maybe not credit, if that makes sense.

Like you don't you don't get to walk into my life and automatically get the free credit art of leg. Here's the friendship of credit card to swipe bit whatever you want, do whatever you want with IT. But I I will give you the benefit of the doubt if I see something we are or like every that's been the hardest part to navigate.

Alex is just who who is who's just Normal and has weird baggage like, hello, every single human yeah. When is the baggage something that's affecting my boundaries in a way that I I just can't engage with? When is the baggage something that triggers me? But maybe I can learn something and maybe you can learn something and it's worth pushing through. Yeah, I is a case by case .

because I was going to say like I was going to ask you, how do you learn to trust yourself again? But I feel like it's kind of the same. It's in the same vein of like you you're onna learn to trust yourself as you're going to trust other people and when you're feeling something that doesn't make you feel good about that person, you're not trusting them as much. You then have to turn in more and be like, is this because of my trauma or is this because this person is actually showing something that is pushing my bounders is making me comfortable and you have .

to be able to decide the two and you're not always going to get IT right. You're just at some point.

let go and rest. My last question is, what do you ultimately hope people take away from reading your book?

Well, I hope they never joined at calls.

No, daddy gay. No cool. I I just.

I hope people feel like they're not alone. I ve set up before. Like, I really, I really want people to to feel like their own shame, their own mistakes are faible, that there's hope and that shame that please don't live in shame.

Don't let IT keep you closed off and shut down and not talk about things. You have to let IT out. You have to let IT out your body the only way of to actually find hope and move forward. So I really hope that that's an an alleviating thing for people .

IT is is more than alleviating IT is extremely encouraging and hopeful um I cannot thank you enough for coming and having this conversation with me. I can already feel just how impact for this is going to be in. I commented you for writing this book.

I think it's like so incredible of you to be able to like pen to paper put down something that consumed your life for ten years. And I think a lot of a lot of people are going to find not only like comforting IT, but feel very connected to you. And I think you have like a very incredible story, but just use a human being like sitting with you, like you're a very inspiring person um and i'm so excited to see what you continue to do. Like, thank you for taking the time I was literally an honor.

Thank you. Ex, well, I think you're inspiring to I really I really do. I think you're so smart and so interesting and I love the way that you just that you just embraced life and one kind of run freely like open your openness is really, really engaging and inviting and and I want more of IT in my life so i'm i'm really gratefully got to spend some time with you today.