Why the Election is a Marathon Not a Sprint ft. MSNBC's Katy Tur & Alex Wagner
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Rise and shine, fever dreamers. I'm Sammy Sage, and this is American Fever Dream presented by Betches News, where we explore the absurdities and oddities of our uniquely American experience. For our special Saturday episode, I don't think we've ever had one of these before, we are going to be doing a doubleheader with two more epic NBC journalists, Katie Turr and Alex Wagner.

Katie Turr is anchor of the daily Katie Turr Reports on MSNBC and a correspondent for NBC News who has covered Donald Trump since he first became a candidate in 2015. She shared with us some of the precautions that polling places are taking on the ground in order to make sure that we are going to have a free and fair election.

And in the second half of the episode, I spoke to Alex Wagner, host of Alex Wagner Tonight on MSNBC. She has been traveling around to swing states for the past several weeks, and she's been speaking to the undecided voters who are going to be the ones to determine the results of the election.

She and I spoke about the hold that Donald Trump continues to have on his followers and some of the emotional buttons that he's able to push to keep them in his thrall. But will he be successful this time? And does MAGA have a successor? You will get to hear all this and more in this episode.

Katie, thank you so much for joining us. I am so thrilled to get to talk to you. I know, in person too. I know. Last time we spoke, I believe, was Zoom, but we are post-pandemic now, and I am so glad to get to talk to you about this election and all of the coverage that you've been doing so far. So let's go back. You were there when Donald Trump made his first candidacy announcement. I was there a few days after.

A few days after. So I was a foreign correspondent living in London. And then he announced I was back in town. You're like, I've got to get back here now. I know. No, and I was in town for something else. And it was like two days after he announced, they said, can you do a story on him? All of his, maybe it was the next day, all of these brands are dropping him. He's being dropped by Macy's and by Miss Universe. And all of these big brands that he had been associated with are saying, we want nothing to do with you. And that's how I got started on the Trump campaign. Wow.

So having watched it up close, I remember early on when you were one of the earlier reporters he was calling out when that was like considered so outrageous and beyond the pale. And it was like, how could a presidential candidate call out a reporter? And so I just wonder, like from that seat, how has the extremism evolved?

Are we just very numb? We have become very numb. It's, you know, you're like a frog in boiling water. You don't know how hot it's gotten. It is normal now to go after anyone that disagrees with you or anyone from the press if they're reporting fairly on you. So it started with me at the rallies, but it's now become all...

media, all journalists who are trying to fact check, even moderators during debates gently saying, actually no, town officials say they're not eating pets. If you're disagreeing with Donald Trump, you are the enemy for a lot of people, including Donald Trump himself and his allies. Right. I think that's really a big difference is that you're no longer just incurring his wrath, but

immediately. There's like no delay between when- He encourages it. He encourages it. He wants his supporters to pile on. That's why he would do it at the rallies. I mean, he'd go after you personally here and there, but more interpersonally, he tries to charm you. He did it at the rallies to get the crowd involved, to make it an us versus them rally.

Right. And so having observed him up close, people speak about, oh, he's finally seeming really, really in decline now. Do you think there's like a difference? Listen, I think he is who he is and he's always been this person. I think he's always meandered. He's never been a concise storyteller. He's always been prone to say, I have a friend who said this and it's, you know, imaginary stories.

There is a difference in his energy level, certainly. And he's aged. Everyone as you age changes. The clarity of his comments is muddier than it was. I don't think it's...

the deterioration of his mental state or his ability to speak in person. I don't think it's quite the same as what we saw publicly with Joe Biden, but there is definitely a change. I mean, he's now the oldest major party nominee in American history. Yeah, and he also doesn't have like a light schedule. I mean, even as he, you know, is...

He spends a lot of time playing golf. He gets to go where he wants. He's on his plane. But he's still moving around a lot for an 80-year-old guy. He definitely is. Yeah. So what do you think about, you know, talking about the rallies for a second? I've noticed that his rallies are not filling up the same way they used to. Yeah. But you're seeing her rallies, and they are... Listen, the enthusiasm gap or the enthusiasm build...

could be a real difference maker. In 2016, he was filling these massive rallies. He got 20,000 people in Mobile, Alabama in 2015. Nobody had gotten a crowd like that since Obama. No Republican had certainly gotten a crowd like that. So it was a major turning point and a point where everyone started to look at Donald Trump and say something could be happening. The enthusiasm that we saw in 2016 helped him win.

People try to discount it, but it did. It definitely helped him win. We're seeing a lot of enthusiasm for Kamala Harris now. 75,000 people, according to the campaign estimate, yesterday—or on Tuesday, excuse me, at the Ellipse. Law enforcement officials say 60,000 and 65,000. Still, that's a giant, giant number of people. Donald Trump's campaign said he drew 30,000 at Madison Square Garden yesterday.

capacity there is 19,500. So listen, the numbers are a bit fudgy, but there is a lot of enthusiasm. I don't think you can totally discount the enthusiasm on the side of Trump. Yeah, you're seeing people leave the rallies, but I saw people leave the rallies at the end of 2016 as well. His base of support is so, so firm that I would be wary of looking at crowd size right now to say that there's less enthusiasm for him. It isn't just the rallies, though, that I'm

seeing. I'm seeing lawn signs in just not really the same concentration that he used to have. And I'm seeing more for her. What's your, what's your intuition having watched this episode?

Where are you seeing the energy? I don't know. Don't ask me that question. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. And I think... No one knows, but you have insight. The honest answer here is that if somebody's telling you they know where this race is going, they're full of it. They really do not. I've been...

I'm sitting at an anchor desk now. I'm not in the field as much. I can't—I'm not doing the one-on-one voter conversations that I did in 2016. I'm not getting to a town and getting the feel of the town. I'm not talking to a cab driver. Cab drivers are great indicators of the sentiment of an area.

But even those people who are doing that are saying they can't tell what's happening either. I would tell you what my gut says, but as John Cusack says in High Fidelity, I think my gut has shit for brains. So I'm not going to go there. I think I can say that on your podcast. I can't say it on air. But I think this is going to very much come down to, this is such a cliche, turnout. Right.

And we'll find out either very late at night or very early in the morning, hopefully that soon. So you think it'll be that soon? You don't think we're going to be seeing a repeat of 2020 where we could be looking at five days? I don't know. I mean, 2020 was such a unique election with unique circumstances. The pandemic meant that so many more people were voting by mail. It was a new process for so many states. It was just a different situation. I wouldn't be surprised if we got election results

on Wednesday morning. I wouldn't be surprised. Okay. But I wouldn't say that we're definitely going to get them. I would just say that we learned a lot of lessons in 2020 and things could run more smoothly this time around. Maybe. So that's interesting you're saying that because even though I am hearing a lot of preparation, a lot of, you know, kind of trying to get ahead of the threats from local officials, from state officials, it seems that the operation to hurt

hurt the voting on the ground is much more, it's riskier. We've had three instances of ballot boxes that were set on fire. And I think they have found the suspect at this point, as of at least now what we're recording. But the point is that this seems like a much more precarious situation. You have election officials who are threatened at higher rates than they used to be. So

What's your level of concern for like that is all going to be sort of, you know, someone's trying to throw a wrench in that. And then, you know, I haven't gotten my hopes up that we're going to be safe till January 20th. Oh, I've got a high level of concern. High level of concern. I already voted. I wanted to get it out of the way. There's a lot of Americans. I mean, I think as of my last check, as of this recording, it's 54 million Americans have voted early. The precautions they're putting in place are.

in Arizona for poll workers are insane. The Wall Street Journal had a rundown of it, and it read like they were preparing for the apocalypse. I mean, the staffers at these election polling places are being trained in wartime first aid, how to apply a tourniquet in a mass casualty situation. That is ridiculous.

really scary. And you had that man who was arrested in Arizona who was trying to set booby traps all around town. They looked in his garage. He had a cache of weapons stored there, more than 100 guns. I mean, it does worry you. Officials are seeing it. They're trying to get ahead of it. So all I can do is cross my fingers. So what about what all that says? You know, because...

Regardless of who wins, this is still a dynamic that we're dealing with.

That there's Americans who believe that the answer to a politician you don't like is violence and that they are really fighting for control in a way that feels so different and more final. And, you know, even Trump saying, you know, you're not going to have to vote again. People want to write him off, but it really feels like that is the situation they're setting up on the ground. Yeah.

I worry about it. Back in 2020, I was in Pennsylvania for a Trump rally ahead of that election. And this was when Donald Trump was really starting to hammer the "only way I could lose is if it's rigged" message. And I asked the supporters who had gathered outside what that meant to them, and they said it means he can't lose.

And I said, well, what if he does lose? No, he can't lose. What if he does lose? He can't lose. Okay, if he loses and you believe it's been democracy has been stolen from you, as that's what that would say, if you believe he can't lose because it's rigged, that means democracy was taken from you, what would you do about it? And I had a man who said to me on camera that I would take up arms if I need to.

And I remember thinking, oh, my God, this guy's willing to say it on camera. He didn't give me his name, but he's willing to say it on camera. They did the January 6th. Guys didn't give their names either at the door. Look what happened on January 6th. So I think take people at their words. And there's a lot of scary rhetoric out there. And the open question I have is on January 6th, Congress reacted the same way with horror.

And even though Republicans still objected to the vote, a lot of high-profile Republicans came out on that night and said that... I'm done. I'm done, Lindsey Graham. Yeah, it was not okay. Lindsey Graham, I'm done. But now he's... But now they're all back behind Donald Trump, and he's doing it again. And they saw what happened last time. If a crowd storms the Capitol, if they're even able to get to the Capitol on January 6th, what does the Republican Party do in the Capitol? What do those lawmakers do, knowing...

knowing that drawing Donald Trump's ire can be dangerous for them. That's the open question that I hesitate to answer. Do you think we're in the same situation, though, given that Joe Biden is the president and he's not going to say, hold off on the National Guard for three hours and don't make preparations for this? No, it's a good point. I don't think we are, but who knows? So talking to voters, you know, you have done a lot more on the ground reporting in past cycles. And something that always really

What confuses me is that when, you know, even when I talk about the way people are thinking about things and, you know, you hear things on the air and it's, you know, people speak about groups, you know, college educated white men, you know, white women, whatever.

And while I do find that those perspectives do often map onto the demographic of the person, what I actually find more often is that if you speak to someone who's less engaged, their way of thinking about issues and the way that they're thinking about their vote can be really surprising in the way that it doesn't follow the logic that we would assume. Yeah.

listen, you're watching the news every day. You're reading the news every day. You run a politically-minded podcast. You're in it. Not everyone's in it. I mean, even some of my friends who are...

I think are pretty switched on news consumers, miss a lot of the stuff that I see. I think we have to remember that the world that we live in is not the world the rest of the country lives in. They're not getting as much of this as we are. They're not following the narrative. I mean, to follow, if you watch one of Donald Trump's rallies, you have to be like,

in his storytelling because it would be impossible to follow. You're in a fever dream for a lot of what he says. So I think what's going to matter in this election is what's the stuff that gets clipped? And then what spreads like wildfire on social media? The most recent example we have is the island of garbage comment from the comedian at Madison Square Garden. And I don't know what's going to happen with it, but I wonder if...

the change in this election could perhaps be that Donald Trump and his world went too far on Puerto Ricans. And the Puerto Rican vote, is that gonna be what changes the course of this election? 'Cause we've been hearing some pretty stark things from Puerto Rican voters who are livid

over this. Yeah, you just reported on your show last hour, as you were watching, that Nicky Jam pulled his endorsement, and he was on stage with Donald Trump about a month ago. I mean, he was on stage with Donald Trump, but Donald Trump thought he was a woman. He said out in the crowd, Nicky Jam, she's so hot, and he comes up to stage, and he looked at Nicky, who is a man, and realized his mistake. So Nicky Jam said that,

And coupled with this island of garbage comment, he's now changing his vote. This is a guy who was on stage with him saying he's changing millions of followers. Bad Bunny, millions of followers. Like, it's a big deal.

big deal. The insult is resonating because people are remembering what Donald Trump did when he was president. This was Biden's theory of the case, that when people remember what Donald Trump did when he was president, they would wake up. And this could be what Puerto Ricans needed, or at least people who are...

who remember that, needed to wake up and say, oh, I remember how he treated an entire island of people while he was president who were in their dire moment of need. Yeah, I mean, I think it's fertile ground, the Puerto Rico situation, because of the paper towels and because you have a very patriotic culture in Puerto Rico and they serve in the military at higher rates. And this idea that

He will say this. What I actually think is very interesting that it didn't come out of Donald Trump's mouth. And there's a part of me that feels like if it had, it wouldn't have gone that way. Yeah, I wonder. I wonder. Maybe. It was like hearing it out of someone else's mouth that really was like, wait,

This is what we're doing here. Listen, he's a roast comedian. And there are people that are arguing that his type of joke works for a roast. It works... You could argue it works in, like, the comedy cellar, whatever, when you're doing, like, the insult humor for an entire... Like, you're insulting everybody. That's what some are arguing online or out there in public. But when you put a roast comedian who's going to make racist, insulting jokes in front of a crowd of people who...

have been, you know, cheering on mass deportations now and Donald Trump insulting large swaths of voters, it has a different ring to it. It lands differently. It doesn't land funny. It lands...

Yeah, it lands. It means you don't give a shit about me. And I mean, there's something to all of that, that he's a roast comedian, but he's there with a certain perspective. Yeah. And he's showing a glimmer of truth. He's there to represent something. Exactly. Speaking to this seriousness and how I think, you know, we...

See, having all the access to all the stories and all the reporting are maybe not going to think about this in the same way as someone who just started paying attention this week. Yeah, of course. Is there any part of this that you feel, you know, people talk about how I think in a lot of ways the media has been sort of a victim of this cycle. You know, I don't want to say a victim, but, you know, the media has lost out.

from this campaign cycle? - I think we have a problem with trust. We can't deny that. We've got a problem with trust. And part of that is because people can go to hear whatever they wanna hear. There's so many more options, so many more spaces.

It's not just, it's not even just Fox News, you know, as the alternative. It is, you know, you can go to a podcast, you can go to just your algorithm. You know, what are the clips that are being fed? You don't ever need to seek something. Just some person, some no-name person on YouTube who's telling you the real truth behind something. I mean, I've got a, I have a 15-year-old. He shows me videos that he sees on YouTube about, like, what's happening in New York City. And I, I,

I look at him and I'm like, I'm sorry, what's the source on this information? Where are you getting this? I'm a newscaster. I do the news and I have to convince him to believe the things that I'm saying. It's a different world that people are not just growing up in but have become accustomed to. It's an issue. And obviously, you know, I'm not...

I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, but it does need to be fixed. Right. I mean, I think about there was a recent study that was like Gen Z gets their opinions from not even videos or reporting. They get it from their comments. Right.

And then you look at the disinformation campaigns that have been online. And there is, I think it was, I think Clemson University did a study and that there are full networks of bots that are just, they just exist to reply to things. They don't even put up their own posts, but they're trying to create an impression in their replies.

And I just don't know how when you think about the journalism that's being done at NBC, it's expensive. Maybe it gets so bad and so untrustworthy that there is a tipping point for people who are trying to consume information online. And when you start not to be able to trust anything you see, and maybe AI is that tipping point.

where you suddenly no longer can believe your own eyes or ears because it's become so easy to manipulate what someone's saying or create a completely fake video of a person saying something. Maybe that is a tipping point that throws things back into order, pushes people back toward verified news sources. Maybe that, maybe it'll get so bad that

that we'll have to claw our way out of it. - I mean, it's there. Taylor Swift, if you remember, there was that whole scandal where there was AI porn of her. - Yeah. - And my big concern was that this week we would be seeing some video of Joe Biden

falling, I don't know, you know, off a cliff or something. Like, that it would be just so... Well, we did get Joe Biden arguing over whether he had an apostrophe on supporters. Yeah, Joe Biden's the outgoing president. It wasn't Kamala Harris saying it. So, listen, I...

A lot of hay is going to be made out of that one comment on the Trump side to try to equate it with the island of garbage. Didn't he say that America is a garbage dump just three days ago? And he says pretty ugly things about Democrats. So I...

There's an imbalance there. So just closing out this conversation, there are so many nuances to go through. But having watched multiple presidential campaigns and more than that even, what would you say is one thing that each campaign has done well and one thing that each campaign has done poorly or could have improved?

Donald Trump has an odd state on message. Shock. He's created news cycles that are more about the, I don't know, Hannibal Lecter or getting electrocuted and having a shark, electrocuted by an electric yacht and having a shark eat you. Do you ever wonder if that accrues to his benefit in some way, though? I think it did in 2016. Maybe it will this time. We'll find out if Shark Week is a winning message.

I think that this campaign very clearly wants him to stay on the subject of immigration and the economy, which they think are winners for him. I think Kamala Harris had the benefit of being new and fresh and having actual energy in

after Joe Biden, who didn't have much energy. I think that if you're going to look back on a mistake that the campaign made on the Democratic side, I would say if we're going to, if this is a, you know, they lose and what did they do wrong? I think Joe Biden maybe should have gotten out of the race a month earlier and the Democratic Party would have had a little more runway to figure out what they wanted to do. So the right thing is they've been able to harness the energy. They've been barnstorming the country. So

75,000 people according to the campaign, 65,000 according to law enforcement. That's a huge number. Right, right. So maybe that's more than a Taylor Swift show. Yeah, exactly. It's huge. I have one more question for you. Have you ever heard the phrase, the term barnstorm in any other context other than a campaign? God, I just broke my rule. We were just talking about that here. I broke my rule of not using cliche. I hate political cliche. Barnstorming. Are you chill? Doubling down. No, doubling down.

I'm like, that's a real, like. No, that one's the, that's my, I hate that one, 30,000 foot view. Oh, yeah, that's like 360. But barnstorming, I'm looking for another context in which you might barnstorm something. I'd like to go look at the etymology of barnstorming. Right, like, what's the barns? Where's the storm? Like, where do these things come together? We'll find out. And,

And we'll connect on that. Yeah, there's a whole world of political cliches in the way we talk about our campaigns that maybe we should try to adjust in the future. You know, Donald Trump ditched that. He did. He just went full stream of consciousness. Sometimes I do think that if you had a little dose of that delusion...

Could take you quite far. Not you particularly. No, no, no, no. I think his greatest strength is that he's not inhibited. And his greatest weakness is that he's not inhibited. Ezra Klein said that, but that's, I mean, that's something that has been very true of him since the beginning. He has been able to say whatever he thinks and it works for him. Is it going to work this time, though? I'm not sure. But with Kamala Harris, it's like, it's such an asymmetry. She can't say anything. Everything she says is like,

to like, oh my God. I mean, this is what, I think this is the biggest struggle for all campaign reporters is the equating of the two as if they're somehow equal. I mean, Donald Trump is a guy who tried to, who denied and still denies the free and fair election of 2020 and has lied about it. And that is a fundamental issue

flaw at the base of him. I mean, he does not believe in democracy. And he's running against somebody, and we're talking about whether she answers questions well enough, what her policies are. I mean, there's an inequality there, and I struggle with it. I really struggle with it, too, because I want to be able to talk about her as anyone should talk about a politician. And yet, if you put any sort of normal standard—like, you put her against the presidential standard—

you seem like you're elevating him automatically. It's very hard, but hopefully we won't have to worry about this in a week. It was really great to talk to you. This was so fun. I would keep talking. I would too, but they're giving me the circle. They're giving me the roundabout. Thank you, Katie. This is so fun. Did you know that 60% of corporate gifts end up in a landfill? What a waste. Luckily, our friends at Loop and Tie are here to fix that. With

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And from now until December 31st, listeners of American Fever Dream get 15% off up to 20 gifts. Use the promo code FEVERDREAM at checkout. And yes, that discount applies to shipping. That's L-O-O-P-A-N-D-T-I-E.com for this year's holiday gift.

Calling all book-loving Betches. We had such a great time at the Betches Book Club in New York City talking about the Midnight Club and sharing our favorite new treat, Nutella Biscuits. So it is only right that we keep the fun going for everyone. Together with Nutella Biscuits, we are bringing Betches Book Club to the podcast through a miniseries starting November 11th. We are so excited for you all to join and can't wait to make every chapter sweeter with the perfect club snack.

On the podcast, Aileen Jordana and I will be diving into the bestselling novel, Such a Bad Influence by Olivia Mentor over four special episodes. Such a Bad Influence is a modern mystery for all the social media sleuths out there. So if you're that friend in the group chat who can find out anything quicker than the FBI, we want you to read and snack along with us. Because what better way to discuss a book about a missing influencer than on a podcast?

So whether you love a good club for the friends, snacks, or actual activity, we've got it all, especially the snacks, because no get-together is complete without the perfect shareable treat. So stock up on those irresistible Nutella biscuits for you and your besties and follow along on the App Etches feed, wherever you get your podcasts, as we break it down chapter by chapter. Thank you so much for being here with us, Alex. Thank you for coming to 30 Rock. It is my pleasure to be here. This is where the magic happens. So magic. It is. How are you feeling with...

Five days to go as we're recording this. - Oh my God, is that, wow. - Six, but-- - Six, but who's counting? I feel energized because election periods are always exciting, but also exhausted. It's worrying to me that I'm this exhausted beforehand.

because I think it's very much going to be a marathon and not a sprint next week, you know? So that was my question for you. Do you think we're going to be shutting this down on Wednesday, Thursday, or do you think we're going for weeks to maybe months? Oh, okay, months, we are all gonna just, like, the whole country will sink.

to the bottom of the ocean if we're still like debating election results in the year 2025. Never say never, right? But and also like who wants to really prognosticate, who wants to predict anything in this season of American politics? But I would imagine just on Pennsylvania alone, a state where they cannot open the early mail-in ballots until Election Day is

and where the race is on a razor's edge, and I don't think either candidate can win this race without Pennsylvania, I think it's going to be at least a couple days. Having said that, at this point, nothing would surprise me. Like, if Trump wins by a healthy margin, I wouldn't be surprised. If Harris wins by a healthy margin, I wouldn't be surprised. If we're in, like, recount territory for days, I also wouldn't be surprised. What if we're in we-have-the-results territory, we kind of know what they are, and we're dealing with malfeasance?

Well, I think that's almost a certainty, right? I mean, we've already seen ballot boxes set on fire. We're seeing election officials pulled off of their positions in key swing states because they have agendas about hand recounts and sort of partisan maneuverings in what is supposed to be a nonpartisan position. I mean, I think the opportunities for reconciliation

are widespread. And I think there's absolute intent to swing the election. And likely from, honestly, Trump supporters because they're the ones that stormed the Capitol. They're the one whose candidate is saying this is going to be a rigged election if I don't win. I mean, this is a person who has not shown particular interest in the results of a free and fair election. So, I mean, I would almost bet that there's going to be malfeasance, but whether it's enough to actually derail the process more broadly, I couldn't say.

So that you will predict. My question is now on the other side. How strong do you feel the guardrails are? Are they there? Yeah. No, I think they are. Look, in the last week, we've seen state Supreme Courts in key, again, key swing states, basically slapping down women

conservative and Republican efforts to disenfranchise voters, to purge voter rolls, to prevent the counting of military and overseas ballots. The efforts are already underway in advance of the election, and they've largely been stopped by the court system. The big problem is that today, the day we're recording, the Supreme Court got involved, and the Supreme Court has not really shown itself to be

I don't know, on the side historically and now of counting every vote. And this Roberts court in particular doesn't have a great track record when it comes to, I think, transparency and rule of law and representative democracy. That's my personal opinion on that. And I think we're headed for troubled waters if this election ends up at the Supreme Court, which it very well could. That is one of my biggest concerns, that and a contested election or contingent election in the House, which Donald Trump alluded to

with Mike Johnson is their little secret. I mean, first of all... I mean, maybe it's just about, like, their, like, cheat days on Saturday. I want to imagine it's something so benign. I'm like, please don't let it be the arrangement. First of all, it's not a secret. Maybe he has the login to his son's porn monitor. I do think...

Trump is so ignorant of the basic rules of the road as far as elections go that his little secret may be actually just the law when you have a contested election or a contingent election.

Or maybe it's something else. Either way, I don't like the idea that Trump and Mike Johnson, someone who played a pivotal role in 2020 in trying to certify fake slates of electors, and is now the Speaker of the House and could be a deciding vote in this election, I don't like that they have a little secret, a private arrangement of, you know, of what, you know, stripe I can't even begin to say, but I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. But it is so Donald Trump to reveal that. Yeah.

Isn't it? Right. Like to, you know, it's the smart thing for him to do is just not mention it. Like if you're going to mention, why would you mention you have it? Why are you doing, if it's secret, keep it secret. He can't. He can't. He can't. Well, because I think there's this thing he does where it's like he's kind of testing how much,

Like, I think saying it is almost to see, well, what are they going to do? Yeah. How are they going to react to that? Can they stop me? He's very preoccupied with putting it out in public. Like, every accusation is a confession, right? Like, Kamala, everything that has been said about Trump with some, like, evidence,

he throws back at her, which is, you know, is gaslighting, yes, but it's also a window into his psyche. Like, it's like he knows these things about himself and yet he can't abide them and so he tries to push them off onto his opponent or Democrats or Libs or, you know, New York City, whatever. Well, I think he actually makes the best prediction indicator of what stories will come out about him because you can kind of read into some of his stories

Sometimes he'll just sort of say something. I can't think of an example right now, but sometimes he'll say something and you're like, where did that come from? Yes. And it's like, ah, that's what he's doing. Yeah, when he brings up a non sequitur on the campaign trail, it's like, listen very carefully because this is leading somewhere. That's not nothing.

They are breadcrumbs. These are rhetorical Easter eggs. They will lead you somewhere. It's like being a student of Trumpism, which I think we all are. You know, it's hard to follow because there's a lot of non sequiturs. Right. And if you watch, if you haven't watched a whole rally and then you do watch a whole rally, you're like, wait, there

There's sections of... And you only really get it if you speak their language and you kind of need a glossary of what each particular thing means and why it has...

what has brought this to his head. But that's what's so baffling to me, because, you know, you spend a lot of time on the ground. You've spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania and Michigan. And I want to hear your take from these voters on the ground. And what are you... Well, first of all, does it drive you crazy to have people repeat outright lies to your face? And you can't be like, no, sweetie. Well, I mean, we do get into it. I think the focus of going to the ground and hearing from voters and hearing from Trump supporters is honestly...

First, understanding the stranglehold that Trump has on half of the voting population. And I think, you know, especially because people are in information silos a lot, people have a hard time understanding the psychology, the resonance of MAGAism. And that's not to say it's necessarily legitimate, but like the emotional pull of this movement is very, very, very real. It's why nobody can even predict who might win. It's why we may not have a winner for days or weeks. Right.

And I think it's really important for everybody to understand sort of like that particular psychology, that poll, that political resonance. And the way you do that is by talking to voters. I mean, I think there's a difference between someone, you know, believing something that is factually incorrect and feeling something that's just more about emotion. And you want to be very careful as a journalist not to be a campaign operative, right? You want the truth. As an anchor, I always fact-check.

But you also want to hear from people about how they got to this point. You know, how do you believe that this person is the person who should be president? And you can really only get there by listening to them and hearing what they have to say. So, yeah, it's absolutely challenging. It's totally wrenching in some ways, right? And to hear people so misguided and to be so filled with vengeance that it's really like blocked this sort of

in a shared American project. You know, it's hard. But again, it's not about me. And it's not about, in some ways, Kamala Harris. It's about what Trump has done to half the country. That's in, you know, places where we're talking to Trump supporters. On the other hand, it's also really important to hear what Democrats are feeling and like their trepidations, their concerns. Like we went to Pottsville, Pennsylvania in Schuylkill County where Trump's going to win by like a landslide.

But there are these little pockets of Democrats who are sort of like secretly banded together in like, you know, firehouses or VFW halls and they're, you know, they're safety in numbers. And they together are encouraging each other and their neighbors to do what they think is the right thing for the country. And I think it's equally important to hear how they feel, just like it's important to go to the barbershop in West Philadelphia and hear how black men who have been talked so much about in this election feel.

feel about the onslaught of marketing and advertising and messaging. And also, you know, their trepidations and concerns about a party, in many cases, the Democratic Party, that they believe has taken them for granted. But with all these people, you know, there's only so much you can understand by sitting in a studio in New York.

Like being there, seeing what it's like, feeling the vibrations, you know, talking to them, looking people in the face, seeing them fight with each other, you know, fighting, not actually sparring, but getting into it with them is like, you know, the way you learn about what's happening in American politics. So are there any themes or common threads that I guess either exist between Trump supporters or maybe there's like, you know, or Democrats who are

maybe hesitant to vote for her or who have newly switched? Like, are there patterns that you're seeing in the way people think about these things so that candidates could, in theory, or, you know, really, I don't think Donald Trump is worrying too much about like this, but Kamala Harris could work on that psychology. Yeah. Well, I think, look, I mean, the reality is that no matter who wins, we're still the United States of America. And somehow I think it behooves us as Americans in this democratic project to

For us to try and stitch back the country in some way, Trump has made that extraordinarily hard by being the most divisive politician in American politics, modern American politics.

What I get from the people that I talk to is an overwhelming sense of alienation, right? From either the country they thought they knew, the neighbor they thought they knew, feeling like the system doesn't work for them. And sometimes that's translated into, like, rage and grievance. Other times that's translated, I think, more productively into, like, we need to fix this system. We need to get involved. We need to run for office. But the sense of unfairness

And I wouldn't say like hopelessness, maybe that's the most pronounced sort of expression of it, but people feel...

you know, untethered. And that's aided and abetted by social media, which I think has fragmented people and communities and, you know, centers of life have like gone the way of the dodo bard, whether it's like the mall where, I mean, I grew up going to the mall, right? I was like the highlight of everything. Totally. Give me $10 and I'm going to buy a lip gloss. I mean, I'm definitely getting my ear repairs twice. Or church or even sports leagues, you know? And so I

I mean, I think we, like, I don't mean to sound like the surgeon general here talking about the epidemic of loneliness, but it is, it explains a lot in American, like political life is not divorced from American social and cultural life. And to me, all of this, you know, the, the fragmentation that we see between the parties, but also, you know, the ability to just rage at your, you, the people in your own community, um,

bespeaks a real loneliness and an isolation and an unrootedness from the communities we once sought refuge in. Well, Hannah Arendt talks about that. She talks about how an autocracy is an atomized system of individuals where people are alone and they don't trust their neighbor and there's no sense of

Reciprocity and trust. And so the only thing... Right, empathy that, you know, maybe there's people who you're like, oh, you're not part of my in-group. But I can see that we all kind of share the same desires and we care about the future and we want the best for our families and our children. And I think it's very, you know, I think she writes that it's very easy for an autocrat to reach people and to kind of delude them when people don't have like a real world tether or people who are...

you know, keeping them in their real lives. And I wonder, is it frustrating for you as a journalist and someone who's very knowledgeable, obviously, about what's going on, that some of the most insidious parts of the Trump administration about his first term, you know, you look at his impeachment, you look at just so many of the, you look at his hush money trial. There's a lot of complexity, weirdly, in the ways that he breathes

breaks the law. Yeah. And it's so... In some of the ways. I mean, the most straightforward criminal charges he has have not gone to trial, right? Like stealing a bunch of top secret and classified documents and putting them in boxes in your bathroom where there happens to be a chandelier is...

It isn't hard to understand, right? It's like you piled high in the shower. And like blabbing about it to random people at Mar-a-Lago. Like that is not what you're supposed to do, but that one hasn't gone to trial. But when that came out, that was like beyond the pale. I even think for like that really got a reaction. And now it's like nothing gets resolved.

Nothing. Except for a comedian. A fake comedian makes a joke about Puerto Rico. And that cuts through, but nothing else cuts through. Cats and dogs didn't... Cats and dogs... But did it hurt him? I think that's the thing about

Trump is such a remarkable political animal. He has so his people are so emotionally invested, not in his movement, not in his policies, but him, the man. And he wears the persecution complex like his very own crown of thorns. And I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, like it truly is a cult of personality. And so when it's not even about it, he basically framed the classified document scandal as like, this is my stuff.

And they're coming to try and take my stuff.

The January 6th insurrection, like some—that to me defies logic because everybody saw that unfold. And, you know, the Republican attempt to revise that history in real time and say it was just a bunch of, you know, enthusiastic, you know— Tourists. Tourists? Yeah. Is extraordinary. Well, when you look at that, though, I do think there was a core piece of his base that did peel off from that. And they sort of—

But that's sort of over. Like that group has sort of already been baked out, baked in, whatever they say about his – the way people look at him. And it's – yeah, I just don't really understand how you can get more people when you're in these information silos that – how do you start to undo all that like intellectual scaffolding upon which their lies rest? Like where do you begin with that?

Well, listen, I mean, I think if Trump loses, right, he will then be a two-time loser.

And that's something he will never admit. But it is the reality that Republicans would like to win that White House. And at a certain point, I think most of the party is cognizant of the very unfortunate and unsavory deal they made with Trump to stay in power. They will want to be in power again. The question is whether they believe that the way for them to seek the White House and seize the White House in future elections is...

is by doubling down on another version of MAGAism, like with J.D. Vance as their avatar or Tom Cotton or Josh Hawley, or whether they sort of look at the shards of the coalition they once had and look at the fact that Democrats have a tent big enough for AOC and Dick Cheney and say, we need some of that. I mean, that's actually how you win the popular vote. Do you think they're saying that?

I don't know. I mean, I think they want to see what happens in November, right? I think they are all—listen, I would almost guarantee any Republican, let's say Lindsey Graham, who knows better, right, but who's made his bed with Trump, is feeling pretty good about that decision. The fact that this race is this tight,

is a testament to Trump's staying power and his dominance in the party and the fact that the party has rebuilt itself and refashioned itself in his image. So, you know, Lindsay made like, you know, I mean, Lindsay, I think, made the right call.

What he does if Trump loses and, you know, the party actually, you know, has a come to Jesus moment and says, what do we actually stand for other than Donald Trump? You know, he may think, you know, maybe it wasn't the right thing to enable this guy for so long. But that's all only, you know, time will tell. I mean, I will say if I were like a political biographer, Lindsey Graham would be my subject because he has a way of squirreling himself into politics.

places that he has no sensible business. And no one says anything. It's like, why are you in Nebraska? And then why are you in Saudi Arabia talking to MBS so that you know what his burner phones look like? It's just, how have you become the Republican Party Yenta, where you're just in every little thing? The zealot of the Republican Party. Yeah, like what is that about? I mean, I

I think Lindsay has established himself as someone who has no compunction lying in service of Trumpism and doing whatever bidding is asked of him. I mean, it's so shameful that that was John McCain's wingman. Like the person who sort of exemplifies Republican, you know, the sort of early 2000s Republican, the integrity of that party as at once in a former like iteration of itself. And like, this is his guy. Like,

I mean, John McCain somewhere is like shaking his head and is in disbelief. I mean, yeah. If there's, you know, if there's a hereafter, it'll be interesting to hear what that like that conversation is like. Really? Can you imagine? What I feel, though, is that Lindsey Graham made his bet a long time ago. I think there's a calculation that he made. Yeah, definitely. With the leaders and, you know, where he wanted to sit in this.

But just going to J.D. Vance for one second, what do you see in that future? Because on some moments I'm like, that's the future and we should be afraid. And in others I'm like, this guy doesn't have the juice to pull them the way Trump does. And you need that.

Yeah, I mean, I think at our own peril, we underestimate Trump's magnetism, his charm. I know that sounds insane. Personal charm. His sense of humor. I mean, he's actually like, these Trump events, having gone to a number of them myself, they are like religious revivals. People like their entertainment, you know, and they've gotten crazier and he's more long winded and less focused and talking about Arnold Palmer's balls or whatever. But like,

The fact of the matter is, like, he's incredibly talented on the stump. J.D. Vance is not. Vance, I think, sees Trump as a means to an end. He's completely made his peace with it. He has, like, I think he's architected, like, his own sort of, like, policy vision for the country, which involves dictating what post-menopausal women should do and pre-menopausal women should do. And all manner of decisions he's made about everybody else. How many cats can you have? Yeah.

The answer is too many. You know, I think he believes he's the inheritor to MAGA. I think there's going to be some very stiff competition if, in fact, that's the direction the party goes. And it's almost guaranteed if Trump loses, there will be some iteration, there will be some second life of MAGA. And who leads it, I don't know. And how popular it is without Trump is an open question. Right. And it's hard to say when you have these groups behind, you know, it's not just Trump. Trump is the face. And I think that that's one of the

things that I think about, okay, let's say Trump loses and you go to the midterms and you're going to have to now explain that it's not just about Trump and the crazy things he'll say. It's actually about this whole policy agenda and the people who put him out there as a front that could entertain and make people laugh. I laugh when I hear them. This is so fucking crazy. It's funny. And

Those people, you know, the Heritage Foundations of the world and the Peter Thiel's of the world, the Elon Musk, the Vladimir Putin's of the world, they have plans for America. And I don't know that like I'm worried that once Trump is gone, it's going to be very hard to articulate that he's not gone.

It's very obvious who Trump is. Right. And in that way, it's been an incredible tool for Democrats. They can point to this guy and be like, you have an issue here. This is why. Like this guy is, you know, unhinged. She's dangerous. He doesn't care about anybody but himself. It's like very, very obvious.

But imagine that agenda that you outlined. It's in Project 2025. It's embraced by Elon Musk and parts of the business community and the tech world. And imagine that is all sort of distilled and packaged better into more subtle, more articulate, like,

front man or front woman. I mean, that's when MAGA becomes, I think, even more dangerous. But the question is, like, can you sell it to the masses? Like, that's been the problem, I think, for this wing of conservatism is they've found in Trump a magician who can sell these policies that are so bad for working class people to working class Americans. And that's like, that's where they owe everything to Trump. And whether they can find another interlocutor who can do the same thing is like, you know, that's, it's a needle in a haystack.

It's true. So one last question. You've navigated the low proclivity voter. You've heard all, you know, you've heard all, I'm sure, the combinations of ways of thinking about things. If someone is, you know, they're trying to talk to their parent, their cousin, someone who is, you know, it's Tuesday, it's Monday, they're just like really not sure. What? Are there any like psychological pieces that you feel like work on? Like, I

- You mean with people who are strongly pro-Trump or Sean? - No, no, no, no. Like someone who's just like a little bit unsure if they're even gonna go vote. - Yeah. - Or if they're just, you know, they don't, they're just not really thinking about it. I'm always like looking for that piece that's gonna be like, oh, I see the light now.

You know, I mean, it's hard, right, to convince people that it matters when they feel either so anesthetized or ambivalent. But I would say, you know, first, you do need to talk about the stakes, right? It's like a woman's right to choose bodily autonomy, the future of the planet, you know, whatever.

the money in your pocket. I mean, there are a number of kind of like practical issues you can talk about, but then if even those aren't resonating, I try to appeal to people's sense of empathy. It's like, you know, your life may actually end up being largely the same no matter who's in office. Maybe you believe that, maybe that's true, but there are a lot of people whose lives are riding on this in a very real way and they don't even know it yet, but they will. And they don't, you may not know them, you may never meet them, but like as your, as someone in this whole

citizenry, like think of them and like make a choice for them and their future because they don't realize it right now. And, you know, you may not have thought about it, but what you do in that voting booth is going to be determinative of maybe whether they live or die. It's true. And I wish it wasn't that way. But thank you so much, Alex. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. Such a helpful, interesting perspective. And I'm hoping to chat again after. Yeah. In 2027 when we finally have the results.

That is it for this special Saturday episode of American Fever Dream featuring Katie Turr and Alex Wagner. Both of them will be part of MSNBC's Decision 2024 special programming on Election Day, November 5th.

And tomorrow, we will be back with former counsel to the one and only Kamala Harris and host of MSNBC's The Weekend, Simone Sanders. You will be back with us tomorrow and Monday, and we very much hope that you are enjoying this special pre-election weekend coverage. If you are, please leave us a comment on Spotify and, of course, a rating, share with your friends, or a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Until tomorrow, I'm Sammy Sage, and this is American Fever Dream.

American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatzik. Social media by Candice Monega and Bridget Schwartz. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Betches News and follow me, Sammy Sage at Sammy and V at Under the Desk News. And of course, send us your emails to AmericanFeverDream at Betches.com.