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Woo. All right. Fun, fun main show episode. Let's dive in here on the LP stuff. So Rahul, as you sort of know, this is a smaller group. I think the main show now reaches like 75,000 folks. This has a little bit more of a community feel and definitely some good stories swapped on the LP show on hot takes on how to raise capital, how not to raise capital, whether bootstrapping is the way to go. And we just wanted to
learn from your experience doing all those things all across the spectrum and frankly, doing some very clever and non-traditional ways as you've decided to raise capital for Superhuman. So with all that said, David, I'll kick you over for topic number one. Especially since you've done the whole gamut here is actually before we get into fundraising,
Let's get this out of the way first. What types of companies does this not apply to, in your opinion? Who should not be going out and trying to fundraise from VCs? So the old and almost inaccurate rule of thumb here is that you should not fundraise for a business unless you think you can build a billion dollar company.
Now, that used to be true back when most of the time for fundraising, you would actually be raising from institutional investors. But I don't actually think it's accurate anymore. And here is why. Here is, in fact, the rule. You should not fundraise for a business unless you see the possibility of growing into 10 times your valuation.
For example, if an investor is offering to invest at a valuation of let's say 10 million, you should not fundraise unless you can see a path to 100 million. And if an investor is offering to invest at a valuation of 100 million, you should not fundraise unless you can see a path to 1 billion. Here's the perhaps counterintuitive corollary. It is worth noting that most software businesses can actually fairly easily grow to 10 million dollars of ARR.
A lot more than people thought 10 years ago. Right. And a sufficiently great founder can actually position such a business to the right buyer for a 10x multiple. It would have to be a strategic outcome, of course, but a great founder can find these things for a $100 million exit. Therefore, you're almost always safe raising money with valuations, let's say in the low teens. But as the valuation gets beyond this,
you should also have a plan or at least belief that the business will eventually be valued at more than $100 million. Long story short, if you're raising low teens, absolutely fine. Go for it. There's another angle to this question that we wanted to get into too. And I'm also curious how you thought about this, particularly with Superhuman.
Is there also in your mind a viable reason not to raise capital, even if you think you can build a very, very large and valuable business just simply because you don't want to raise capital or you don't need it? Some people have done this, but it's interesting to note when people have been capable of doing this.
They often haven't. Let's, for example, take Reid Hoffman, who from the successes prior to LinkedIn could have actually funded LinkedIn a very long way down the road. Now, he did beyond what most founders tend to do. He contributed a large amount, for example, of his own Series A. But there is a value to having other people around the table. So let's break that down.
There is value in having a board, a board that isn't just you, in having that kind of external accountability and having that cadence and rhythm and oversight. I didn't have this for Reportive. And looking back, I think maybe had we a board, I could still be running that company and that company could be a billion dollar company today.
You just raised a very small amount of money. You did YC with Reportive, then raised a small amount of money afterwards. Exactly. And then the LinkedIn acquisition happened pretty quickly. Exactly. So we raised a million dollars. We were one of the first party rounds, as now has become a very old term. But back then in 2010, it wasn't particularly common. We were high resolution financing. We bought all of that very, very early on. And we sold about 20 months later to LinkedIn.
Now, because it was a party round, I didn't have a board. I didn't really have a lead investor. And that's not a good thing. I think you do want these things. And I think even if you're a super successful founder, a super successful entrepreneur, it's helpful to have a board to provide more wise minds and more guidance around the table. It's also just good corporate governance to have a board, especially once you have a
dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of employees. So that's one reason. Another reason is to convey to the outside world - and this matters more early on, less later on - that you're not completely insane.
Now, this is important because... This is great. This is exactly what we wanted to talk with you about. Early on, you're going to look insane. If you don't, your idea probably isn't interesting enough. Early on, you're probably going to be the person saying, yeah, at the push of a button, the car is just going to arrive and it's going to take you to wherever you want to go. And trust me, one day we're going to make money and even be passing propositions in California. Or...
You might say, yeah, I'm going to make an email client. And the core thing about this email client is it's going to be really, really fast. And by the way, people are going to pay $30 per month for it. Most people will think you're completely nuts. So it's helpful to convey that other professional investors
who aren't investing their own money. They raised it from LPs, institutions, and so forth. And they're on the hook with their own reputation to deliver that money back. And if it's an institutional investor, they're giving up one of their very few board slots
They have decided it's you, right? They're not going to have more than 10 board appointments and they have decided that you are one of them. These are all very strong signals and a savvy employee or a savvy potential employee is going to be looking to these things, especially when it comes to high level engineering hires and leadership executive hires.
So when you were starting to think about, and you've talked about the journey of starting superhuman and what it became from the get go, were you thinking along these lines of like, I mean, you probably could have financed this yourself for quite a while, but the signaling aspects are really important. These things do become self-fulfilling prophecies. As we've talked about a lot on the show, you wanted this aspect of it, perhaps more I'm guessing than, than even just the capital. Yeah.
I asked around a fair amount and I found this rather odd rule of thumb, which is contribute 5% of the round yourself. So I essentially did 5% of our seed round,
And I put a little into the series A as well. And this was me showing the investors that, yes, I care. This is for real. I'm going to put my own money on the line. I have my own skin in the game. But also balancing it with most of the capital is actually coming from very high quality professional investors. Andreessen Horowitz, first round capital and so on. And that was a very strong signal that I wanted out in the market.
Does putting your own capital in help with leverage on either economic or control components of the deal? No, not really. Not when it's just 5% of the rounds. You're not setting your own terms at that point.
If you're doing a priced round, it's typically the lead investor who is usually the person who's either putting in the most capital or the one who's going to put in the most time, which are usually the same entity that is setting those terms, obviously in negotiation with you. I don't think that the argument, hey, I'm throwing in this much is going to be much leverage.
Where leverage does come from is whether or not that investor actually gets to be the lead investor. So as with anything else, it comes down to creating a market and as the founder having the ability to walk away from any deal. Now, there is a corollary here, which is if you don't need the capital, let's say, and I wasn't able to do this, but let's say you're fabulously wealthy and you could bankroll the entire round.
then yeah, you have tremendous leverage. Because at that point, you can just say to the investor, well, fine, you don't want to invest. I am personally going to finance the next round of this company. And I'll see you when it's five times more valuable next year. What you did contributing capital as a founder yourself into a round, that's very uncommon, certainly among first time founders, but even beyond first time founders. Was part of the motivation that in doing so,
you alluded to this a little bit, you're trying to get a top tier investor to lead you around for all the benefits we just talked about. You're signaling to these folks like, hey, I am super all in like this is this should get your attention because I am doing this. I didn't even let them know. I don't recall actually too many conversations about it. It was it just made sense to me that I would invest in my own company.
As you know, I have a fund with Todd Goldberg and we reinvest the vast, vast majority of our management fee as GP contribution. Why wouldn't you bet on yourself? Yeah. It is very much a signal that we're sending to the LPs of our fund by saying, hey, we're taking the least possible management fee that we can from this. We're reinvesting it as GP contribution.
commit, because that's how much we believe in our ability to drive a phenomenal return. I mean, it's the old Charlie Munger quote, right? Like, show me the incentives and I'll show you the behaviors. Like, it really applies in this stuff, especially on the fun side. This also sets the stage for sort of the next question we wanted to ask, which is, what are the things that
that you think founders should do before they go raise? Like, how do you lay the groundwork as a founder? Let's take a seed stage deal. Maybe we can take both, both a seed stage, the first capital you're raising. And then also, once you're raising your A or B, and you're established, how do you set the stage and plan out a successful raise before you actually go start it?
Well, I think there are two types of fundraise. There is the preempted fundraise where one fund or one investor will come to you and say, Hey, I've been watching you or I've been using your product or I've loved getting to know you. How would you react if I were to give you a term sheet? And then there's the marketed fundraise where the founder says, okay, flag in the sand, I am raising money and I'm going to go and talk to all of these investors and let's see what happens.
Ideally, you want to be pre-empted. You do not want to be in the market, so to speak, for too long. Not at all, in fact, if you can help it. Now, the best way to be pre-empted, and this applies whether you're Seed or Series A, is to be perpetually in a state of not raising, but simultaneously be making great progress with the company and also being open-minded enough to pre-emption by a good enough firm.
Now, in order to pull that off, you need a few different things. You need runway, of course, because you need to be able to walk away from any deal. Every conversation that you might have with an investor needs to feel super casual. So at any point, you could just be like, okay, you know, this is fine. This was just a catch up.
In order to get to that point, my advice for the founders who can pull this off, and I actually do think this is everybody, is get into the rhythm of raising one round ahead of traction. Raise your seed round when you're a pre-seed company. Raise your series A when you're a seed company. Raise your series B when you're an A company by the normal metrics and definitions and what the market is doing.
And this will forever, unless you let the time run out, this will forever put you in the position where when you're talking to an investor, you can walk away. Why? Well, you should always have four or five years plus of runway. In the entire history of Superhuman, we've always had four or five years of runway, if not significantly more.
This is such a cool and counter to current dogma philosophy point that you've said before that I just want to pause and highlight. I think what I've heard you say before, you always want to raise a version of this is you always want to raise twice as much as you think you should, but not for the reasons you think. I think it's brilliant because it's
As you say, every time you are making a market for your equity, you are literally doing that. You are making a market. And how do markets behave, right? Well, they behave based on supply and demand and they behave based on your BATNA. And if you can ensure right off the bat that you're always going to have an excellent BATNA, then you are, you know, ergo, probably very likely always going to have an excellent fundraising position.
Exactly. And this gives you that time. It also gives you a whole bunch of other things. It gives you room to make mistakes, which we all of course do. It gives you room for external changes like COVID, which hit so many businesses hard this year.
It gives you room for things like a recession or the volatility that I'm sure we're going to see over the course of the next few months. But most importantly, to your point, it lets you walk away from any deal. And that is how you get the best deals.
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So Rahul, what would you say to any listener right now that's thinking, yeah, but I don't
You're Rahul Vora, and this was superhuman. I mean, this is like the hottest email thing, and you're a second-time founder who had a great exit to LinkedIn. Can you remind us of maybe...
how you thought about this and what you were able to accomplish when you were initially raising for a report of or perhaps when there was a lot of skepticism around superhuman early days like you said do you think anybody can accomplish this how would someone who's less well known among our community of startups do this
It does depend on the stage. So which stage would you like to focus on? Should we do pre-seed going into seed or seed going into series A? Let's go pre-seed to seed. So pre-seed to seed, the most important thing, and I gave this analogy I think last time I was on the show, for founders to do is to get the flywheel moving. And I like to visualize this thing as this gigantic flywheel made of the densest material you can find and
And all you have to do, and to begin with, it's just you, is to get the thing rotating and you push it and it barely moves and you're straining and you're struggling and it starts to move just like a millimeter at a time. Your entire goal as a founder is to get this thing to move.
Now, as a second time founder, you get to do this in weird and wacky ways. As a second time founder for superhuman, I was able to raise the first million dollars just off one slide. It was a screenshot of Gmail. You remember a screenshot of Gmail and I just read inked out the things that I thought were broken and the things that I didn't like. And there was one word, which was speed. And that was a million dollars raised. Now,
Now, how could I pull that off? Well, I had a track record in email. I'd sold a company to LinkedIn, namely Reportiv. And I think the idea was compelling. The investors who believed in it saw and felt that Gmail was getting slow. But let's remember all the things I didn't have. I didn't have a team. I wasn't at that point a competent programmer anymore, so I wasn't able to make it myself.
I didn't really have a plan for how it was going to work. I didn't have screenshots or mock-ups or designs or anything like that. I merely had a concept and a slide. And so it wasn't necessarily easy, but my track record was just enough to get it over the line.
And so the flywheel starts moving. I then had a million dollars of capital. What do I start doing? Again, very counterintuitively, the first thing I actually spent money on was superhuman.com.
And this was not a cheap asset to purchase. I actually spent $175,000 on this asset. The initial check that we'd raised for the company actually was just $250,000. So it came in and then it almost substantially went out again in order to purchase superhuman.com. Amazing. Where did you get the idea for the name superhuman, by the way?
Oh gosh, this is an interesting story. This was actually when I was still at LinkedIn. I had two weeks left to go and somehow Silicon Valley had heard I was about to leave. In particular, Andreessen Horowitz's firm had heard I was about to leave. This is props to them. They are an incredible firm.
Balaji Srinivasan, who was a full GP at the time and was doing all kinds of deals, reached out to me and he said, "Hey, little birdie told me you're about to leave LinkedIn and you're about to start a new email thing. I'd be interested in taking the seed round. Do you want to swing by Sand Hill Road on the way back from work one day?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure. Why not?" And so he invites me to his office.
This is one of the strangest - I love Balaji, by the way. He's an angel investor in Superhuman and of course, entries in Horowitz are investors as well now. I swing by and it's a weird meeting. It's like 10 or 11pm at night and he has this steak dinner, but it's in cardboard containers and we're sitting in his tiny office. He's like, "So what's the idea?" as we're chowing down on our keto paleo meals like steak and broccoli.
And I start pitching him this vision I have for a really fast email experience. And he says- Did you have the slide at this point? I didn't know. This was pre-slide. This was, in terms of timing, this was February 2014. So it's before your nine-month hiatus between the two. Exactly. Yeah. This was before that period of excessive fun times. And I'd actually just
incorporated the company, I think maybe the day before or two days before. And I'm in the office and he asked me, well, what are you going to call the company? And my mind starts racing. And I said, well, Bology, I don't really know. But what I do know is that I want it to feel like you have superpowers. And that's when it hit me. That's when I was like, we're going to call this thing superhuman.
I go to superhuman.com just to see if anyone has it. Literally in the meeting? Literally in the meeting, yeah. We actually batted around a few different ideas that were superhuman, that were supercharged, which obviously isn't anywhere near as good. It turns out that for superhuman...
The domain was owned, but it wasn't used for anything. Which, for anyone who spent any time searching for domains will know, is actually really rare. Here is a really powerful English dictionary word that has such emotional strength that isn't being used for anything.
And that's when I said, okay, this thing is going to be superhuman. What a great story. So popping the stack back to the other story, that first 250K comes in, 175K goes out. We buy superhuman. I'm doing this in a really weird and wacky order. Typically, this is not the order that you do things when you're starting a company. I then spend the next six weeks investing
Just writing the landing page copy that is still substantially sort of 99% the copy that is on superhuman.com today. And again, super strange. I spend the next...
$50,000 on hiring a design firm. And we actually went with Ueno, which has now become this amazing design firm. They've worked with Uber and Lyft and Airbnb and so many great companies. We were one of their first clients when they just started. So we got to work... 50K for a design firm is pretty good to do anything. Right. We were just super early. Exactly. This was like MetaLab to Slack was Ueno to Superhuman.
And they did this early design work with us where I gave them the wireframes. They turned around really beautiful mockups and design assets. And all along the way, I was casually talking to investors in exactly the way that we described earlier. Now, remember, I still didn't have a team.
And so I'm a solo founder. You had progress, right? You had like momentum to show. At first it was just an idea and then it was an idea in a domain. And now it's like there's something physical they can look at in the wireframes.
Exactly. And along the way, I'm also talking to potential co-founders. I was talking to Conrad all the way along. I was keeping up my angel and my advisory work all the way along. And that's actually how I found my two co-founders. Conrad eventually got the signal, which was this train is leaving the station and there will be a point beyond which he will no longer be able to join. My other co-founder Vivek will
Well, his company wasn't doing so well. And I was having my advisory calls with him and giving him advice on how he could raise a bridge round, how he could keep the company going. And in that case, there just came a time where I was like, well,
I hate to say this, but I don't think you can raise money for this thing anymore. But I have a train that's about to leave the station. How about you and your last remaining engineer come and join me at Superhuman? And actually, all three of them, Conrad, Vivek, and BK, who was our founding engineer, joined in the same week. And so in June of 2015, which is over a year after I had that meeting with Andreessen Horowitz...
We went from one person to four people. And the way that I did that is by constantly creating momentum. Now, why the long story? So to tie this back then to your question, which has founders sometimes ask me, well, what can I do? I'm not you. I can't do these things. I'll say to them, okay, you can raise 250K and you can be brave like I was. And you can spend that on something that might seem insane, right?
But you can create progress and then you can raise the next 250k and then you can raise the 250k after that. That's what I did. I raised it in chunks over the course of Q4 2014. And of course, with a safer convertible note, a high resolution financing, you can do that. Like you can, you don't have to have all the money come in all at once. Exactly. And I didn't. And in case you think I was raising at superstar valuations, I wasn't. That first 250k came in at 8 million. The next came in at 10. The next came in at 12.
The next came in at 14. And then I actually felt kind of bad. I was like, oh, this is too rich for where we're at. And so I brought it back down to 12 again.
And I recapped the people who were foreseen back, you know, I went back to them. I said, you know what? I think I just want to keep the valuation under control. Would you mind if I gave you more equity? And they were like, no, that's fine. Thank you. Thank you for being big about this. And it was the ultimate long game play there. Exactly. Well, I always believe in treating investors. It's such a little amount of capital there that like,
the percentage of your company that you're giving up goes from pretty tiny to like just regular small. I mean, you just didn't raise that much capital. That's the key to making that work. This doesn't work if you're raising at a, you know, six or eight cap and you're taking in a million and then you want to take in another million and then you would take in another million. Like by the time you go raise a priced round, that's all going to catch up to you in a big way.
Oh, absolutely. Yes. For folks listening to this thinking, we can apply this at 6 to 8, that's definitely not the case. 12 to 14 is a very different kind of game. And of course, it depends on the size of the check. I mean, that's the other variable. These weren't particularly big checks. These were...
very early stage VCs for whom the average investment size may be $200,000 or $300,000. One of these folks was Dave McClure. It was 500 startups. He invested at $14 million. And I wanted it to be fair across all of our seed investors. And so I said, you know what, Dave, I just want to recap this and make it as if it were $12. And so then when did you raise that price round? Were that all converted? Yeah.
Well, this took a very long time. So I started raising what would be now called the pre-seed round in Q4 of 2014. And I raised $2.5 million in this fashion, very casually, very slowly over the course of the next year and a half, actually almost year and three quarters. And I believe it was
I'm probably going to get my dates wrong. I believe it was the summer of 2015 when we actually did the priced round with first round capital. And it was a very casual fundraise up until that time. Mostly people who had backed me previously, people for whom I'd made money at Reportive,
But then, of course, you play the standard trick. And if a founder listening hasn't done this when they raise this, one of the easiest ways to get more leads is as soon as an angel or a VC commits, just say, great, can you please name three other people that we should speak to who you think would be interested in this deal? And now they're incentivized to help you find those people. Once this happens,
graph starts building itself, it actually ends up taking on a life of its own. And this is why most rounds end up oversubscribed because towards the end of a round, you typically have enough people around the table that have enough friends who've made enough money that they're just trying to pile in.
To my mind, I think this flips at some point along the fundraising journey, but the kind of value of a syndicate. Let's say if Dave had been and said like, hey, I'll write you a $2 million check and then you're just done. How should a founder think about that? Is that good? I mean, obviously the plus is like you're done. You don't have to waste time with any more of this. The downside then is like you haven't started to build up that graph in the same way. I would be wary of doing that at all.
the pre-seed or the seed stage, with the exception for when you've already built up that base of people around the table. This was actually advised to me by a lot of my friends in the business. I remember when raising... We didn't finish the early Andreessen Horowitz story, so just to wrap that up and then I'll tie it into this anecdote. Balaji and I walked down the aisle quite a bit of the way
And we actually didn't make it. And the reason why we didn't make it is we had a personal disagreement around over how I was going to spend the next few months after LinkedIn. And I said to him, I was like, listen, Balaji, I am completely burned out. You know, I feel haggard. I don't want to wake up in the mornings.
It's very difficult for me to sort of work. I'm having this conversation with you because you invited me and I respect you. And I'm definitely willing to bat this around and see where we end up. But I am not actually planning to start working on this until...
let's say November or whatever it is. I'm going to take a certain amount of time off to recover. I don't think the market's going to run away. This is an insane idea. Most people aren't going to get it. Nobody else is this crazy. Exactly. And I think he personally could get behind that because he has also experienced burnout many times. But as a, and I understand this now looking back, I felt like
rather annoyed that he pulled out of the deal. But looking back, I get it. As a relatively new GP for a weird and wacky deal like Superhuman, going to the partnership and saying, hey, the founder isn't actually going to do anything for six months, it's not the best look. It's not the best way to start an IRR clock ticking on deployed capital. Exactly. And we talked about that. And I was like, I don't even need the money for six months.
And so it wasn't really that. It was more of... Oh, interesting. Your proposal was you just make the commitment now and then let's actually do the deal in six months when I'm back? Exactly. I was like, let's sign the term sheet now and let's do the wiring in six months from now.
We can even sign the term sheet now for an investment made in the future if you're working. And that is a way to delay the IRR clock ticking. Interesting. But it's just weird. Right. A lot can happen in six months that, you know, one side or the other may decide they want to change things.
Exactly. And so in any case, the deal ended up not happening. It's kind of funny looking back and Balaji and I were laughing about this and Ben Horowitz and I were laughing about this when we signed the Series B deal. You know, the post money on the Series B deal, it was leaked, so I'm not really...
spreading anything, but it was north of $260 million. And at the time, and they invested $33 million plus. And at the time, Balaji and I were talking about an $8 million valuation. So it ended up being significantly more expensive for Andreessen Horowitz not to make the investment. Do you want to come in at single digit millions or do you want to come in at a quarter billion? Right.
So it was kind of funny. The reality is they don't care, but that's a whole other LP episode. Yeah, they don't care. They're very, very good at running a venture firm. But I just thought that the numbers were funny. In any case, it didn't work out with Andreessen Horowitz.
So, what I then did was, at that time, go and talk to some other friendly firms. I talked to Matrix. I talked to Greylock. Greylock I was super friendly with because of the whole LinkedIn mafia situation. You know, go through LinkedIn. My boss's boss was Adam Nash, who ran products at LinkedIn for some time, became an EIR at Greylock, became the CEO of Wealthfront, became the head of products at Dropbox. The LinkedIn Greylock DNA goes very, very deep.
And so when I left LinkedIn, Reid pinged John Lilly, who at the time was, or before this was the CEO of Mozilla and then became a GP at Greylock. Just, hey, go hang out with Rahul. Just see if there's any way that we can help him. What's he doing next? Like, let's just help him on his next thing.
And so Lily and I ended up having this conversation where he was like, Hey, would, would you like to join Greylock? Like we can potentially get you on the fast track to being a GP. And like, you know, we, we all really respect your, your insight and your product thinking you're, you're very deep thinker. And I actually did think very hard about it.
But I ended up saying to him, I think I've got one more company in me and it's superhuman. And here's what it does. Would you like to invest? And this is where Lily said one of the biggest and best things he could have said, which is, yes, but you shouldn't take my money. I don't think it's good for the company because...
We have the seed program. I'm only going to be able to invest a few hundred thousand dollars. That's the way the seed program works. It's not really a real commitment. It's not going to be a board seat. It's essentially an option check. You should, the stronger move is not to raise from an institution in your seed if you can possibly avoid it. Instead, raise millions of dollars from angels and funds that are dedicated to this stage of company.
We didn't use the term pre-seed because it wasn't a term back then, but he was essentially saying, go and raise some pre-seed funds and angels. We're going to invest in this company basically at every stage. We love you as a founder and we love the space. Just come back when it's the right thing for the company.
And I'm so glad that he gave me that advice because it was so on the nail and so spot on. And so that's the advice that I ended up following. I raised about two and a half. And that allowed you to build that table of people. Exactly. So I raised that two and a half million dollars from angels, from micro VCs, from pre-seed funds. And that's when first round capital came in with a priced round for another $1.6 million.
The way that I had done it forced them to break all of their rules because their normal check size is 750 or 800k at that time.
They have to buy a certain percentage ownership. And so they had to more than double their check size in order to get to the level of ownership that made sense for them. And so in total, that took us to about $4.1 million raised across the pre-seed and the seed. Well, and then there you go. That's your five years of runway right there. Exactly. And there you have it. Actually, at that point, given our burn, it probably took us to eight or nine years of runway. But in any case, you then have the time to be able to raise funding on your own terms.
This is such a good point, generally speaking, which is whenever you're engaging with an investor, and frankly, we can extrapolate this beyond just investors, but the thing you want to do with them is the thing that is their bread and butter. Don't go raise a Series A and then pull in some public market investors. Don't go raise a pre-seed round and pull in some seed investors.
Who aren't used to writing 100k checks and they don't have a way to think about that in their portfolio. The best thing to always do, and feel free to disagree with this, is for the round that you are raising, go and find the people who care a lot about investing in that exact type of way for this round, for this type of company. I'm going to say yes and. Sometimes...
you can find alternative strategies that maybe work even better than the markets that's dedicated to your stage. So here's the problem with the markets that's dedicated to your stage. Those investors are all competing against each other and they probably all see the same set of deals. They might not want your deal as much as maybe an investor who doesn't quite fit the shape.
In our case, that was true for our Series A. For our Series A, which was a preempted 10 on 51 post, when we had all but 10 customers, so $300 of revenue a month, and a prototype that barely worked, was actually a very well-known family office.
That was an LP in about three of the seed funds that had invested in our seed rounds. Now this guy, Kevin, who for anyone who's raised a fund of any size that they'll know Kevin, they'll know Nullwood Advisory. They are a mega LP. He approached me directly and he said, so my fund managers tell me you're about to go out and potentially consider raising a Series A fund.
I'd like to participate. And I remember this conversation vividly because it was a good example of reading the tea leaves for what they are. Sometimes you have to go deeper than what people are saying. He and I were sitting at the high tabletop in Market Bar in Four Seasons, San Francisco, in case anyone's been there, which is because I didn't have an office. That's just where I would work constantly. And I said to him,
Well, how much money would you like to invest? And he said, well, how about $250,000 or how about $500,000? And I said, well, you know, this is going to be really tough. At the time, we'd just done an interstitial round at 25 million, which I can talk about because I realized I just threw out that jargon. So we just done an interstitial round. But in any case, I said to him,
I don't think we have room to take on that check size at this point. It might have to be $100,000 or $150,000. And he said, okay. And basically, because you felt, and we're going to talk about this in a special round, but because the valuation of the most recent sort of financing you had done was $25 million, you felt it would be too dilutive at this point to take a check size of $250,000 or $500,000 at $25 million. Yeah.
Exactly. I think it had just been a week prior where I'd raised at 25 million. And I wanted to respect those investors and not double the valuation on them overnight, as well as the new investor. And so I said, look, I can't take this capital. By the way, what is your normal check size? And I asked this knowing at the back of my mind that he manages billions of dollars.
And he said, "Well, you know, normally for a deal like this, I'd like to deploy $5 million, $7 million, kind of roundabout there." And I said, "Well, I'd love to be able to take on that kind of capital, but I can't do it at $25 million. Would it be okay with you if I have a think about it, figure out a valuation that works, then get back and we'll figure this thing out?" And he said, "Yes."
Over the course of the next two weeks, we had this negotiation. It was a very easy negotiation from my perspective. He tried hard to make it easy. I flew to New York. We went out. We had dinner and drinks. It was me. It was Kevin. It was Ed Sim, who's the fund manager at Bold Start, who has Kevin as one of his anchor limited partners there.
And so between the three of us, we just agreed this deal. And Ed, by the way, was one of the investors who had invested at $25 million just a week or two before. And so we agreed that we'd do $10 million on a 41 pre, 51 post, no increase to the option pool. So it was essentially a sweetheart deal that...
You couldn't have imagined a better deal as a founder. We even wrote a side letter because I was worried about key principal risk here. Kevin has an investment shop of about 20 plus people, but he's like sole GP.
It's not the case where if something unfortunate were to happen to him, there'd be a whole venture firm with a reputation and other general partners to rely on. So we wrote- The other folks there are not doing early stage venture. They are not. And he is, Kevin is a genius investor. He is extremely sophisticated. You know, he led Lyft Series C. He was able to see all these things at a time when no one else was able to see them.
What I asked him to sign was a side letter such that if something unfortunate were to happen to him, then the voting rights associated with his shares would revert back to the company. Just a few little things like this to shore up my reticence and hesitation about raising a Series A from a completely non-traditional investor. From an LP, essentially. And the point here to make, I think, it's important to be explicit about people who do venture deals all the time, VCs, have a...
pretty founder-friendly, very far-looking future lens on the set of terms that they put in that they know not to mess up the company in any specific way. And when you're dealing with a strategic or someone who's not used to doing venture deals, it's just very easy for them to behave in a different way than a traditional venture investor would behave on your cap table or with all the governance rights they have.
Because there are easy ways to say, oh, I want to make this decision to capture value right now. But every VC knows and every founder knows you're playing a ridiculously long game and you really have to be super future looking to make sure that you don't mess up anything for all the value that needs to be created in the future. Couldn't agree more. And if a founder is dealing with a non-traditional investor for that stage, my best advice is you should be the one to furnish the term sheet.
you should go to your council and say, hey, I want founder-friendly, but also market for my stage of company. Give me all the bells and whistles. And then take that to the strategic investor, or in this case, the late-stage investor who's trying to capture value early. And they'll be thankful. They'll be like, great, because my council doesn't really want to prosecute this. So it's good that your council does. We'll, of course, double-check everything. And we'll talk to our fund managers to make sure that this is market. But
But really what they're trying to do is capture value early. I asked Kevin once the deal was done, you know, why was he so excited to do it? And what he said to me is, mark my words, this is the cheapest your company will ever be. He just had that level of belief in what we were doing. And I think he was right. It turned out to be absolutely right. And now he looks like a genius. He is through the fund manager's
that he has invested in through the SPVs that he's done and the side investments that he's done. Because he's also re-upped to every single point in Superhuman through the Series A, through the Series B. He is the single largest shareholder other than me in Superhuman, even more than Andreessen Horowitz. And this is an LP. This is how he makes money for his family, not just in being very savvy as a public market investor and as a real estate investor. And he's out buying oil fields and
the UAE, but getting into early stage deals and building a position over time. I learned from that as an angel investor and as a small time fund manager. We now also have that strategy at the Todd and Rahul Angel Fund where sometimes you can't get the allocation that you want. And that's okay because in many companies we've been able to build a good position over time.
Last thing first, because I definitely want to get to this, but I do want to hear what is an interstitial round? Because I think it's a thing that you do that's totally non-traditional, maybe becoming a little bit more popular. But if I'm trying to follow this story along, and I'm a listener right now, I heard that you raised a million, and then I heard that you raised two and a half million, and then...
Of course, you raised this $10 million, I think, Series A from a family office. But I heard you say somewhere in there that there was a $25 million valuation on something. What is that something? Right. So we did two interstitial rents. I'll just run through the chronology again. We did around $2.5 million of high-resolution financing, call that a pre-seed.
Then 1.6 million of seed financing from first round capital. The post money on all of that was about 16. I say about because of course it was high resolution. Then we did about $500,000 on 25 million. I did this because I knew we needed more money. This was an early board meeting I had with Bill Trenchard at first round. He's a phenomenal investor, by the way. And I went to him and I said, hey, Bill,
I have learned, I now have conviction that we're not going to be successful as a company unless we have a mobile email client. And he was like, we'll go and build one. I said, well, here's the problem. We only have enough money to build a desktop email client. And if we wait until building it, it's not going to work because I know that it's going to take about two years to get a decent iOS app to market. And he said, well, then we need to raise more money. And I said, okay, that's what I'm going to go and do.
Now, I didn't know what valuation to raise money at, but what I did know was that the Series A, I wanted it to be about $10 million. And that, therefore, a good valuation felt like about $50 million post-money. It felt like anything beyond that would be ridiculous. Now, the market then isn't what it is today. This is, let me try and cast my mind back. This was about 2015.
Today, 50 million for a serial founder who's building in my space. You could probably raise that just on concept right now. That's how frothy the markets are today. Back then, it wasn't quite like that. So I did what I always do, which is I just cut to the halfway point. And I said, well, I want the series A to be at 50 million post.
I know that we're at 16 million posts right now. 25 million is a nice round number. It's about halfway there. That's what I'm going to go and raise money at. And so I went back to my first check into the company, Bold Start Ventures, EdSim, and
showed him the mock-ups and the design that I had for the mobile app. And he essentially committed on the spot he said we're in, at which point I don't think he was expecting me to do this. I pulled a safe out of my backpack and I was like, cool, here's the safe. Yes. Amazing. Glad that you're in because I'm ready. Let's go do this thing. And he put in 250K of the 500. The other 250K, this is another neat trick.
founders can do came actually from the agency that we worked with, Fueled. They're an amazing mobile agency over in New York that we worked with to build the prototype of the mobile app. So once again, I knew that we had to get momentum going before we had any mobile engineers. Well, how do we do that? It worked really well with the design firm just starting to get things moving. So we did it again with the mobile app.
Now, we ended up throwing the code away, and that's fairly normal when you work with an agency. You do this to learn how it should work, how it should feel, and critically, to signal to the market, to the markets of mobile engineering leadership, that this train is leaving. And that one way or another, this app is going to get built, and so to create some kind of urgency around hiring the right person.
Now, they were quoting me a very, very high rate, a rate that I didn't think we could afford. I forget what it was, something like $250 or $300 per hour of mobile engineering time. And I was racking my brains. I was like, well, how can we do this more cost effectively? And so we ended up negotiating this agreement, whereupon...
fueled dramatically slash their hourly rate, but they also got to invest in the $25 million round that was happening then. And the only two investors who got to invest in this round, actually not entirely true. One of only three investors who got to invest in this round was Ed, who wrote the first check, who said yes on the spot. And that was where I pulled out the safe and
fueled, who were our design and coding partner for the mobile app in the early days. And in return for investing, they also got me hourly rates at cost essentially. And Kevin, who as inducement for leading the series A, I let him dollar cost average slightly by also putting some money into the $25 million round in addition to the $51 million round.
That is an interstitial round. And that shows it playing out in three different ways. In one way, as a thank you to the first angel check that came into the company and said, thank you for believing me so early. You now get to invest in this when no one else does.
as an inducement to the firm that we wanted to do agency work with in order to give us a cost rate, because they're now equity owners in the company. And also as an inducement to the incoming investor, out of respect, because of course the $25 million round, I mean, it just happened last week. Who is to say the company is worth twice as much the week after? Of course, you can put in a little bit of capital at that price point as well.
We then did the series A post-money 51 million. We then did another interstitial round, similar mechanics at 80. Kevin, of course, doubled down again. He's doubled down every single time. And then the next round after that was 260 plus. Do you create that safe? You're like, great, we just closed around at 51. Anyone who wants to invest at this point forward, it's nice. We've got this $80 million safe open. Yeah, I've created it immediately. Yeah.
No, I think that seems a little too cheeky, even for me. That doesn't sit right. I always wait until something meaningful has happened with the company.
For the $25 million round, the meaningful thing was, look, we've made all of this progress on desktop and we have this really kick-ass wireframe. Actually, it wasn't even a wireframe. It was a principal animation. It was an interactive animation that you could tap through that worked on the phone. It looked and felt awesome. It had the contact bar for the first time you had that reportive-like functionality on iOS, which was a really big deal.
And so we had that prototype and that was the thing that we were able to take back to investors. For the $80 million round, we'd just had this really cool, I wouldn't say launch, but this event that we'd done with Product Hunt. We were a launch partner for their ship functionality, which if you haven't come across this, this lets you launch on Product Hunt without actually launching on Product Hunt. You just get a landing page. You can collect email addresses. You can collect signups online.
We were a launch partner for that, and we were by far and away the biggest launch partner they had on the platform, even going up against other really big brands. In the course of two weeks, we had about 17,000 people sign up for Superhuman, and that very quickly grew to tens of thousands of people. This caught the attention of the media. We ended up having a TechCrunch piece. I ended up
on cheddar.tv, live from the New York Stock Exchange. Lots of really cool pieces of media. And so I packaged all of this up. The traction from Product Hunt, the New York Times Stock Exchange piece, the TechCrunch coverage, which also then ended up in a piece with Wired. And I took that back to Kevin and to our early stage investors and said, hey, it feels like we really have something here. I'm therefore opening up a new round at 80%.
Would you be interested in participating? And they did. That's when Niamh from Shrug Capital got involved as well. Obviously, he was able to see the traction from his connections at products, and he knew how big of a thing this was going to be. And it was just a good opportunity for people who could see what was happening at the time to get involved. We still had very little traction, probably on the order of just hundreds of customers paying us at that time.
But you had millions of dollars of latent ARR sitting there on the waiting list. Exactly. So you raise a good point there that obviously now informs a lot of your strategy with the fund. But I think it's important. A lot of companies and founders...
can tend to think as we were talking about earlier too much along the lines of like i have this set of investors for this stage of my company i have that set of investors for that stage and like yes they're great there you want them on board you want those brand names you want the best at what they do but
Sometimes the early stage investors in your company too can be great. You know, they're already bought in. They have more information than anybody else. They can be really great investors to either kickstart a process or to, in some cases, lead a process of a later stage round, which I think if I'm reading the tea leaves right, feeds right into what you're in Todd's strategy is now with your funds.
Kind of, yeah. Our thesis is pretty simple. We think that founders these days want to raise from other founders and other operators in the earliest stages. And in particular, the most savvy founders are leaning towards doing that rather than raising from a big institution in those early stages.
We're also seeing that there's plenty of others. Exactly. And it goes back to the advice that John Lilly gave me at Greylock. He said the bigger, bolder move is not to raise from us and that the best founders now know this.
How did you and Todd decide, great, we should start doing this in a more, I hesitate to say institutional way, because the whole point is you're not really an institution, right? Definitely not an institution. It's just the two of us. It really started off with our angel investing. I started angel investing in 2012 with tiny personal checks and
That year, I had sold my last company, Reportive, to LinkedIn, and I was mostly doing it as a way to meet interesting and ambitious founders. I felt like it was a good way to stay connected to the startup ecosystem whilst I was at LinkedIn.
When SuperHuman started to take off, I started to see significantly more deals, but I also had increasingly less time to actually deal with them. Unfortunately, it was causing me to miss deals. You mentioned Notion. I had every opportunity to invest super early in Notion. First Round Capital is also an investor in Notion.
I had brunch with Ivan very early. Their valuation was only 40 million. I said, hey, I want to invest. He said, yes, I will let you in. But simply due to being a busy founder, I did not actually see that one over the line. Oh, no. It's okay. You win some and you lose some. Yeah, you'll be fine. And I think I learned an important lesson, which is
it's really, really hard to be an active founder and a hobbyist angel. In fact, to do angel investing well, it's almost an entirely different skill set. You need to be opportunistic and you need to be able to turn on a dime at any moment. And that's not conducive to also being a good CEO. To being a good CEO, you need to be focused on your company and not get distracted. Now, at roughly the same time,
Todd Goldberg, with whom I'd been co-investing for some time, pitched me about being an LP into his fund. He was like, hey, I want to start an angel investing fund. I think you'd be a really great LP. Would you be willing to back me?
So for the first time, I looked at angel investing not only as a way of meeting cool people, but as a way of making money. I looked back at my own angel investing track record, which was never something I had actually paid any attention to. And I was shocked at what I found. I had two deals, Clearbit and EasyPost, where my $10,000 in each were together worth nearly a million dollars on paper.
and both of these companies are still doing really great. So for the first time, it began to feel real and palpable. Up until that time, I literally thought I was throwing money away, but it was also kind of entertaining. I was meeting all of these cool people and I felt like I was giving back and helping the next generation. The reason was not to make money. But Todd's request forced me to look at it through that lens. That's when it occurred to me
Todd and I were bringing very different things to the table. Todd was bringing his ethic, his hustle. He runs the fund like he is a founder. He is a founder. He has foundry things that happen on the side, side hustles that he's also running.
What I brought was the ability to see these deals from across Superhuman and also be an active operator/founder who can help in moments of crisis or in moments of difficulty or on specific things like, "How do you get a press release out? How do you get into a publication?"
How do you get onto podcasts? Speaking of podcasts, you know, how do you design a go-to-market strategy? You just have the hosts email you and say, hey, can you come on? Well, thank you so much for emailing me. But how do you get to that point where it is the case that hosts actually are emailing you and people are interested in hearing what you're saying? And, you know, of course, there are answers to all of these things, which I won't go into now. But this is one of the reasons why folks were interested in raising money from me.
This like begs the natural question that you have an 80 hour a week job being the founder of a quarter billion dollar fast growing high demand startup. And you have a whole team there. Like how on earth do you do both? And what's a reasonable promise that you can make to founders that you back when you talk about things like being there in moments of crisis? Like there's a unfortunately a finite amount of time. Absolutely. So Todd and I agreed that we would split responsibilities and
In coming together, I believe that we would easily be able to raise more than twice as much. He was originally targeting around $3-3.5 million. We ended up closing for Fund 1 around $7.3-7.4 million. And that we would use our combined platforms to get great LPs and enter the very best deals.
What we say to founders is that we're able to bring very different levels of time to the fund. Todd is running this thing like he's a founder. He, no joke, works 12 to 14 hours as an angel investor for the companies that we've invested in. He is the hardest working angel investor I've ever met. And that was one of the reasons why of all the people that
that I could potentially have co-founded a fund with, it was Todd. It was because I knew that he would treat running a fund like being an active founder.
For me, I measure the amount of time that I put into things very carefully. I'm shocked. Customers of Superhuman will have read that newsletter I sent out about the switch log and how I measure my time fairly precisely. The amount of time that goes into the fund is in the region of one to two hours per week. It's a strategy call that I have with Todd every Saturday morning, and then usually a session with one of the portfolio companies.
What we say to the companies is if shit is hitting the fan and you need to get in touch with us, this is Todd's number. This is also my number. Text him, call him. He'll reply at any time of the day. He'll then either deal with it or escalate it to the both of us.
If it's an area of expertise where I can get involved, he'll immediately punt it my way. This could be something like I mentioned, press go to market distribution, products, virality, PR, um, and weird crisis situations. Uh,
It could be that there's a PR scandal brewing. Like, how do you handle that? I've been through two big PR hysteria events, so I sort of feel somewhat seasoned. One right after our last episode. Right, exactly. So I know how to handle those things. It could be that a lead investor has just failed. We had a particularly crazy one. I'm not going to mention names. One of our companies...
The general partner who had invested in that company had left the firm and the remaining general partners were like, well, we don't even like this deal. We want to wash our hands. And as you know, when it happens, it's so, so bad. Like it is the worst thing that can happen to the company.
And so crisis situation, this is where a very well-networked founder with very strong relationships to most of the GPs across the Valley can actually help. So I put out the bat signal essentially, and we found another tier one investor to come in and buy those shares and to take that board seat.
So that is the best solution to situations like that. It's just like, if you can do that, get them out, get somebody who cares in. Yeah. And this new investor that they are honestly better than the previous investors and the founder is so, so happy that we were able to figure out this switch.
That's great. What such a high leverage use of you being an investor in that company. It sounds like most of your investments in the core fund are relatively early. You said you will do later stages too and come in and participate in those rounds. But you just raised this this follow on rolling fund. Tell us about that.
Sure. So one of the things that we noticed with our early stage fund, which I haven't really explained, so I'll do a quick description of that. It's pretty wide set of investments across B2B and consumer, viral SaaS, especially productivity like Superhuman. We love business infrastructure like Clearbit and EasyPost.
We love health, fitness and wellness companies and creator tools, audio companies like Descript. We typically do $100,000 to $200,000 checks at Pre-Seed all the way through Series A. Now what we saw is that from that fund and from our general network that we were seeing a pretty significant number of follow-on opportunities.
We were seeing a growing number of breakout companies from our networks and we were increasingly being invited to participate in these rounds. Now these were rounds where either due to our LP agreements, we couldn't invest from the early fund because the valuation was too high or it just didn't make sense to invest from that vehicle.
So we created a follow-on fund specifically to invest in breakout companies from the early stage fund and in later stage opportunities from our network. One point of construction I didn't talk about with the early stage fund is, and this is somewhat unusual but I think it's becoming more common, we didn't hold any of the fund for reserve. So the idea for follow-on from the early stage fund was that it would always happen via SPV and it would go to the LPs
pro rata by the amounts they had contributed to the early stage fund i mean they're pros and cons to both but like i've been speaking from experience with relatively small you guys have a very small early stage fund it's just so hard to like model out reserves and deal with all that when you're dealing with a small amount of capital in the first place
I agree. Although, interestingly enough, as we're thinking towards the next fund, we will probably be changing that strategy. For fund two, which isn't actually the rolling fund, it'll be the next version of the early stage fund, we probably will actually set aside a small amount. We're thinking about 20% of the fund to be able to opportunistically jump on the
These amazing deals as and when they come up or maybe some interstitial rounds exactly Yeah, I mean interstitial rounds happen all the time And you know, I can give an example of a company called house house is an incredible company. I folks aren't familiar They do a low alcohol by volume aperitif
Because the alcohol, the drink is made out of grapes, they are actually able to be a direct-to-consumer company in the beverage business. They've essentially found almost a loophole where they can mail you alcohol. And in these COVID times, where up until very recently people weren't even able to go to a bar, there's just been such a demand for their products. And they've just been doing phenomenally well.
This was a good example where we made an initial early investment. It wasn't as big as we would have liked. Our typical check size is 100 to 200K, but we love the founder, Helena. We developed a relationship and we were able to, whenever they raise money, deploy more capital over time. And so we've been able to actually build up into a position which cash on cash should actually be able to generate decent returns over time.
Now, we were one of the very early rolling fund partners. One of the reasons that we love rolling funds is you can essentially raise widely from the market. You are actually able to market the rolling fund without falling foul of general solicitation. Right. It's not public. Exactly. It's also bringing that thing that you know very well, high resolution fundraising up one level of abstraction in the capital stack.
Yes, it is. You're able to go to these people who possibly have never actually invested in a venture fund before, but maybe they have some spare capital, as well as can do the high resolution version of fundraising over time. There isn't really a valuation, so to speak, with a venture fund, but you are able to slice it by time. But that is its pro and its con.
For folks who don't know how rolling venture funds work, there is this requirement to deploy capital. If you don't deploy it inside of the three quarters, it rolls back to the investor who can roll it back into your next fund if you're doing another fund. But there is this clock sitting on the fund and it's an unusually small amount of time, just a number of quarters.
For something like a more traditional fund, you do have the deployment window, which could be years depending on whatever you've said to your investors, to actually deploy the capital. And that is probably more what makes sense for the kind of investments that we're doing.
I think the Rolling Fund is a really good experiment. We may well do another one because it gives us an opportunity to get to meet new LPs who we otherwise wouldn't meet. It gives new LPs an opportunity to invest in the Todd and Rahul deal flow, which is massively oversubscribed on the Core Fund side.
And potentially a way to maybe invest in the core fund down the line. So it's just like a good kind of, you know, get to know you for every party in the ecosystem. But the core fund itself is able to wait for an opportunity in the way that a rolling fund might not be able to.
I hadn't realized that downside to the rolling funds. I did know that, you know, under the hood, they're basically just a series of separate funds, right? Every quarter or six months or nine months or whatever, however you structure it. But that, yeah, you have these deployment windows that are very narrow. Exactly. And the other way you can do this is via SPVs. But then, of course, you have to raise the SPV every time you want to do a follow on investment.
And why is it that you can publicly market them? I'm not too familiar with the legislation. I believe it's something to do with Section 506C, which means the kind of fund it is allows you to talk about it. Essentially, the way that it works is the level of accreditation that is required and the form of accreditation that is required for investors is greater.
You can't self-accredit. You actually have to be certified accredited. Oh, interesting. Got it. Got it. Got it. Rahul, before we bring this LP episode to a close, you know, on the main show, you kindly told folks that they could get to the front of the line to sign up for Superhuman. As a plug for this one, who should come talk to you about, I guess, either fund, but if they're an entrepreneur, who should come talk to you about the Todd and Rahul fund?
Great. Well, so this applies both to early stage and also late stage investments. We late stage invested recently in Pitch and in Class Dojo. I'm a big Pitch user. Great product. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. No, I am super excited about that product. And we have about 30 plus early stage investments, which you can see at ToddandRahulAngelFund.com. We were very imaginative with our naming.
The kinds of companies we love to see, essentially the ones with- Cheaper domain than superhuman. It was significantly cheaper. Essentially the ones with fantastic founders. If you think that you are a founder with the magic combination of you know how to make something that people want and you know how to help people realize they want it,
and you're working towards the possibility of a billion dollar outcome, we'd love to talk. We're fairly sector agnostic. We invest across B2B, across B2C, across SAS. We even have one biotech company that we're incredibly passionate about. If you have an interesting company, please drop us a line. We'd love to take a look. Awesome. Well, I'm excited. I've got a couple of Pioneer Square Labs companies I'm going to send your way. Fantastic.
Well, listeners, thanks again for joining us. Rahul, can't thank you enough. I think this is the first time I've heard a fair bit of the insights and stories that you shared about Superhumans fundraising journey and your thoughts on the topic. And of course, on your fund. Hopefully, we'll get a third at bat here with you on Acquired in the future. Maybe when some meaningful change has happened and we can justify a different valuation for the episode. Until that time, listeners, we'll see you next time.
We'll see you next time.