Is Baking ACTUALLY A Science? ft. Jessie Sheehan
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What?

Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show we break down the world's biggest food debates. I'm your host, Josh Scherr. And I'm your host, Nicole Inayati. And we have a very special guest joining us today. She's the queen of easy-peasy baking and the author of the brand-new cookbook, Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy, Snackable Bakes. Please welcome Jessie Sheehan. It is a mouthful of a title. It is such a mouthful, and I've gotten a lot of shouts.

sugar from saying, from writing a title quite that long, but it's very descriptive. I think it's great. I think it's fabulous. And you know, what's wrong with it being a mouthful? I don't think there's a problem with it at all. I'm calling it, like I've already given it a cute little nickname like it's a kid, so I'm calling it Salty Cheesy. No.

That's so funny. Shorthand. Creighton's Clearwater Revival, right? They gave themselves a super long name because they thought it would help them stand out on radio. So it would take the DJs extra time. But then they just shortened it to CCR immediately, thus working against their original plan. Ah.

I'm not sure what my original plan was, except that I thought it would be really, really, like, descriptive of what I was trying to do with this book. But I kind of like that. Now I'm just a salty, cheesy girl. You are salty. We're salty, cheesy girls, too. S-C-H-C-S-B. Oh, my gosh. That's not another physics formula, is it? I just say that that flows off the tongue. Absolutely flows off the tongue. And after today.

When you hear about my book, that's what you're going to hear. S-E-C-H-C-H-O-T-T-O-G-O. Is that Jesse Sheehan, the author of S-C-H-C-H-B? There's a whole TikTok dance to go with it. It's going to be great. 100%. And there's going to be swag.

Hilarious. We are so glad to have you here today because we are discussing a topic we've been meaning to discuss for a long time. It is a common adage that people say that, you know, cooking is art, but baking is science. Yes, and I love that you just said adage. Adage. It's not adage. It's adage. Yeah. No, I love that. I probably would have said adage. It's adage. You know what? I heard somebody say adage recently, and I was like, what a pretentious person.

piece of crap. Oops. Let me do it. And then I suddenly just came out of my mouth. I think that shows, yeah, more about me than anybody else. I love it. I love it. Yes, yes, yes. This is a really, really good topic. I'm really excited to tell you guys what I happen to think. Okay. You guys ready? Absolutely. Okay. So here's the thing.

I actually don't even like science and I don't even like math, but I really, really love baking and baking does require both things. However, it is the kind of science that you can also be like super creative with. So like this idea that like cooking is art and that baking is science, I am here to say how about baking is a little arty and a little science-y or a little scientific. Okay. And this is why I think so.

Because, yes, yes, yes, there are like certain chemical reactions. There are certain physical reactions. There are certain even biological, like if you think about yeast reactions. And that all sounds like very sciencey and a little bit scary. However, there is also all this creativity with like the different ingredients that you use or the different flavors that you want to incorporate. Right.

So I'm kind of going with like a – like arty, science, like kind of like a really cool nerd. That's how I think of science. I mean that's what I think of baking. Like that – like, you know, like let your freak flag fly? I feel like that's the bakers, right? Like, yes, we're science-y. Yes, we're nerdy. But like look how creative and cool we are.

Yeah, you're like the band kids letting the freak flag fly out there. Totally. And a lot of freaky bakers. And also, don't you think that those kids are like really – like in high school maybe nobody likes them, but hello, they kill it in real life. 100%. Remember 10th grade lead tuba player? She shaved her head and everyone was scared of her. But like I was like, hey, I think she's pretty cool for that. Yeah, exactly. She'll get a crush on her after she shaved her head. And I just have to say one more thing about science. You had a crush on her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she's got a couple kids now. She's doing great. I love that. We all found our ways in life. I love that. But the other thing I was going to say is the weird thing about me is that I – and I think this is the other reason why baking can have a bad rap and why people think, oh, my gosh, it's like it's a science –

Yuck. People always say, oh, I hate baking. It's so scientific. But I'm like a weird nerd, and I actually love like everything to be really black and white. I know that's not – it makes me like not that interesting because like people want to be like living in the gray. But I really – that's kind of what I love about baking is that it is like prescribed in a certain way. And that like, I don't know, makes me feel safe. I don't know. Sure. Sure.

I find baking to be more of like, going back to like kids, oddly enough, it's like someone who follows the rules really well, I think is what baking is. Like someone who is very structured and understands that what an eighth of a teaspoon is, it's not a suggestion, it's an actual written recipe. So in that world,

I think it is a science because you have to be very regimented and you have to know when to add what. The temperatures matter. Whatever kind of leavener you're using matters. I think with cooking, you can get a little bit looser, goosier with it.

And certainly there's an intersection with like cooking and baking. It's a bit of a false dichotomy. Well, cooking is also a science. You're using heat and ingredients to make a final product. So that's science too. But baking, there's steps and there's actual procedure that matters. With cooking, I think you can get a little bit more wild with it. I agree. I was thinking about this earlier and I was thinking about tomato sauce. And I was thinking about like what could you possibly –

mess up with tomato sauce that would be so bad it would be like a cake not rising. And the answer was nothing except the way it tastes or if you burnt it. But I don't think we're counting that. What happens, is there something like you can't cook tomatoes in copper or something? Cast iron. The acid degrades. That's what

Even then, whatever. I only found that out because I did it and someone commented, you can't do that. And I was like, what if I told you? I did. I'm still alive to tell the tale. Like if you didn't put oregano in your tomato sauce or you didn't put, even if the recipe said like seven cloves of garlic and you put one, it still could be really delicious and totally work. Whereas in baking, if somebody said like, to your point, a tablespoon of baking powder, and you're like, I'm in the mood for a quarter teaspoon. Yeah, that doesn't happen. That would be like really sad.

It does lead to a lot of hilarious comments on especially the New York Times cooking page. I remember reading one where somebody was trying to make, I don't know if it was a chocolate mousse. I think it was actually brownies. And they gave the recipe one star and they said, this didn't set up. It ruined my night. I hate you. Go to hell. I did substitute Ovaltine chocolate milk mix for the chocolate chips though. There you go. But other than that, I followed everything. So you're right. There's no conduit like that for tomato sauce. 100%. And can I just say how much pleasure I get in a –

kind of creepy, weird way when I read those things and people have literally changed every... It's like it's so extreme, it's almost comical. Have you guys seen the carrot cake kale one? What? That is the most famous one. Yes. I didn't have carrots, so I used kale. Yeah, yeah. And like, oh, there was so much sugar in the original recipe. I cut it down by like 40%. And we're like, what are you doing? Wait, hear me out there. Hear me out. I...

Love that. And to me, like, so, okay, the carrot cake example is a great example. What I love about it. So we all know that restaurants are in, you know, a dire need of repair of the entire culture, the monetary structure, all that. Pastry chefs are kind of on their way out because a lot of restaurants can't afford to have them. I worked with a chef who had to get rid of his pastry chef and he started doing the desserts. And he made this dessert that changed the way that I thought about –

Oh my gosh, tell, tell, tell.

Right. You can talk about the science all day. But he did that and then he made a zucchini mousse and then he made like a, you know, zucchini sabayon and he did everything. Does his dad own a zucchini farm? Does he love zucchini or what? It was summer and so his whole thought process and I really identify with this was like,

I know how to make a good carrot or a good squash cake for fall, and I know a lot of fall squash is used in baking. Why not a summer squash? Love it. Which is a zucchini or a spring squash, you know? And it was incredible. And so for me, like, I think the science of it gets a little overblown in the sense that this table is science. There's cellulose that's stacked up, giving it structure. This microphone is every single thing. I am science. You are science, Nicole. There's...

of interactions going on within you, but you don't have to live within that realm per se. I would argue baking is more architecture than anything.

In a sense. There's science behind architecture, of course, or construction. There's more math. You're building a building, you know. It's math. Because it's about the different ingredients and the way that they are going to build the thing or the way that they are going to come together to be the thing. Like flour brings structure. Eggs bring moisture. Sugar brings moisture but also sweetness. Fat brings flavor. I feel you. Because even when you're talking about recipes not –

working out because of substitutions, the main fault seems to be structural, right? Yeah. A lot of the time, yeah. Like if you substitute the chocolate milk powder instead of the chocolate chips, that's because chocolate chips are solid and hard at room temperature and provide structure in recipes. It's why you can't use artificial sweeteners or sugar. Right. Because literally the C6H12O6 molecule of glucose, like, actually...

actually has a structure to it and it changes with different heats. So, like, you have to know that. But to me, that's less chemistry and more like I need to know how to mix this mortar properly so the bricks stick together for my building. I had an interesting experience when I was writing this book that I call S.C. Strickland.

H-C-S-B. Correct. I don't know if you guys have heard about it. S-A-H-C-S-B-C. I'll be sending you guys T-shirts. Don't worry in case you forget. But anyway, that's the swag that's coming. But what I found that was really interesting when I was writing this book, it's my first foray into savory baking because I'm a sweet baker because I love sugar. I'm like a sugar person. And I realized in a lot of the recipes that I really needed to add sugar even though I was like, what? What?

Why would I put sugar in my muffins? This is like I have this incredible like hot pepper jelly and cream cheese stuffed muffin. Well, the muffin itself has like – not a lot, maybe three tablespoons of sugar. But I realized you need it for moisture and you need it for color because –

savory baked. We don't realize how much sugar is bringing in terms of looks. Okay. And when I was doing all of these savory recipes that didn't have any sugar in them, things were very brown. Right, right, right. Nothing against brown. Love brown. But I wanted a little bit more. And the sugar did that. I thought that was so interesting. I was going to ask you whenever you're writing a baking book and you're, you know, you're recipe testing, I was going to ask you, how many times do you go through a recipe and you're like,

I'm going to add a quarter teaspoon of baking soda here. I'm going to add an eighth of a teaspoon of baking soda here. I'm going to add baking powder instead. Do you do that in your process? So I'm hoping that no one has ever listened to this podcast because I'm going to come out and say something like really like top secret and that you should never do.

What you're talking about, I think, is like this idea that when you're testing a recipe, it's like for like a cookbook particularly. I mean, online, you could always change it if there was a mistake. But if you're something that's in a cookbook or in a magazine, which kind of are dying. Poor magazines. But anyway, the idea is that if something is not right with the recipe you're developing, you can only change one thing at a time because the idea is if you're like, oh, I'm not

really enjoying this. I think I'm going to add citrus, baking powder, a teeny bit of soda, bring down the... Like you'll never know unless it's perfect and then you're like, I'm a genius. But if it's not perfect, you're like, oh my gosh, like which thing...

And I should be doing that. Like I should only change one thing at a time. And I'm so impatient. I'm a weird – I'm like a weird lover of like routine rigidity black and white. And I'm also like wildly impatient. Sure. That's fine. So, yes, that is exactly what you're supposed to do. Do one tiny thing at a time. I tend to be a little bit more like, well, maybe I could change seven things. But, yes, that – and you will see like if you're developing something, let's say, and –

like a muffin, just to use that as an example, and you're finding like, gosh, this is yummy, but like the muffin, the cakey part of this muffin feels like a little dense. Like how can I lighten it? Then you'd be like, I don't want to add a ton of leavening, but what about if I just add like an eighth of a teaspoon of baking soda or a little bit of baking powder? That's also like not to get too nerdy. No, it's fine. I love it. I love hearing you talk about it. I already said I'm like a

Artie, nerd, science hater, but also lover. So anyway, like all bets are off now. But the other thing that's really interesting and trips people up a lot, I think, is with baking soda and baking powder. Because you can baking powder, a teaspoon of baking powder will leaven a cup of flour.

A quarter teaspoon of soda will leaven a cup of flour. However, if you have an acid, acidic ingredient like buttermilk, let's say, or like Dutch processed cocoa in the recipe, you're going to need a teeny bit of soda to help deal with that acidic ingredient, blah, blah, blah.

So that kind of stuff is both like really kind of weirdly fun and you feel like very mathy and smart, like, oh, I know what I need to do. And also really frustrating and annoying because you're like, why doesn't this taste the way it's supposed to taste? Because can I just say one thing? Yes, of course. You have a microphone.

Take her mic. You have the floor. I'm worried. I feel like I need to hold it. No, you have it. You have it. She's filibustering on the floor again. Exactly. The other thing I was going to say that is...

This is why it is science, but it's not. Like, I just gave you those, like, one teaspoon of flour, 11's one cup of – Those parameters. But you'll see, like, recipe writers, like, put two teaspoons of baking powder, and yet they only have one and a half cups of flour. And the, like, kind of, like, rule follower in me finds that really hard. Sure. Because I'm just like, why did they do that? Like, I have to understand. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. I have to understand why they did that, and I really want to know. I mean, you kind of sound a little bit like a scientist when you went off on that baking. You sound like a bad scientist, though, because you're like, I changed seven variables, and now I have— Whenever you were talking about the baking powder and the baking soda and one cup, I mean, you sounded like someone who really values the science of baking. You know what she sounds like, though? What? She sounds like a baker. Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of what it is.

scientists. I think there's a fascinating mix of there is hard science, because there's hard science behind everything, but this is all institutional knowledge, right? You know that because you've done it. And I think that's the key. Hypothesis. What do you mean institutional knowledge as opposed to what other kind of knowledge? What do you mean? So if you have merely read in a book that

one teaspoon of Big Butter Leavens. That's one thing. But if you have actually seen it in practice over and over and over and also then done that with combining it with, you know, acidic ingredients, like you know that because you've done it and you've seen the effects. And you can then like add

estimate using heuristics and knowledge that you've had from the past in that. And so I think knowing the hard science behind stuff, there's like The Food Lab by Kenji Lopez. I know so many people that love that book. And I think it's an incredible book. I think he's an incredible cook. It's not the way that I learn, right? I don't need to know the fundamental science behind it. I need to know that I treat it like algebra in a sense, right? Algebra, it's such a simple form of math. I hate math.

But go ahead. Go ahead. When people say they never use algebra in their adult life, I'm like, I use it every single day. Can you remind me what's algebra and when I'm using it? Sure. If I use it today, will you please tap it? I think there's numbers and letters in algebra. It's how different variables affect a solution. And it's very linear, right? Yeah.

It's just like, what is it? Y equals MX plus B or something. Yeah, the slope intercept form, buddy. Right, but you're using like just the idea of what happens when you change one variable to the final solution. Okay. And then what happens when you multiply it? What happens when you add things separately? To me, like...

A cocktail is a great example of a Negroni. It's equal parts gin, vermouth, and Campari. Okay. Right? So that's like, you know, X, Y, and Z all have the same quantities. And X is a bitter liqueur, Y is a fortified wine, and then Z is spirit. Right? Well, what if we change – what if we add a different number in front of that Z? What if we start playing with the quantities of this thing? Maybe I like a little bit more vermouth, so now we're going to add like – okay, that's –

2X, or, yeah, 2Y, 1X, 1Z. And you start, like, changing it. Josh is doing air math, everybody. Josh is doing math in the air. And then you go, well, Campari's a bitter liqueur. Let's add another bitter liqueur to it. And then if that's a little bit too, you know, too sweet, then you start changing the other variables. But to me, it's like a building block of a foundation of how you view any sort of recipe. Baking does get a little bit more complicated, though. Hairy, yeah. Admittedly, because I used to do something that I called free baking. Ooh.

Did it involve algebra? No, it did not. It involved me getting drunk at a bar and coming home and then combining different amounts of flour, fat, and sugar to try and bake something without any sort of recipe. And then my ex-girlfriend would get really mad at me. And then would you then document that and be like, no. No, none of it. You just were like, this was really fun. It's just a vibe. It's just a vibe. It's just a drunk person.

If you're like, maybe I know how to make a Dutch baby today. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Let's heat a bunch of fat in the oven as hot as I can in a cast iron pan and start making that. While drunk. Let's make some funnel cakes. Let's go to town, you know? When I'm drunk and I want a sweet, I just want like something that's already in the freezer like ice cream.

I want like a piece of chocolate. Or I want cookies. I want a piece of chocolate. I just want a big piece of chocolate like the size of my hand. But do you want it to be milk chocolate or dark chocolate? Dark. Oh, I want it to be milk chocolate. Really? I do love milk chocolate though. I love milk chocolate so much. A handful of milk chocolate chips on a bad day. Ooh, the day gets so much better. With a little bit of peanut butter? I'll do it. Yeah. I'll see. I'll meet you after. Okay. Okay, good.

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Also, can I say that I love Oreos? Sure. Oreos are science. Yeah, Oreos are 100% science. And that might be something that I would eat if I came home and was drunk. Can you breathe it? Yeah, and I was not going to be trying to make a recipe. I would be eating Oreos and maybe ice cream. Oreos really are science, though. Oreos really are science. They really are science. Think about them, the cookie itself and the cream itself separately. The cream is so sweet, it's almost offensive.

And the dark chocolate cookie is so bitter, it almost tastes like dirt. But when you combine the two together, what a harmonious, delicious hypothesis we have. It's incredible. Can I just say that there was this chocolate wafer cookie that people used to make chocolate cookie crumb crusts with? You know when you get a cream pie and there's like a cookie crumb? Yeah, sure. And it was by Nabisco, and it was called the Nabisco Chocolate Wafer, and everyone made icebox cakes with it, et cetera, et cetera. Nabisco stopped.

carrying it. And I am here to say that an excellent, excellent substitute for the Nabisco chocolate wafer is an Oreo cookie crust. We're talking about nine ounces, like two cups of Oreos. I mean, Oreos aren't really cups, but you know what I mean. Let's weigh them. Nine ounces of Oreos and about like five tablespoons of melted butter. Okay. Oh, my God. Institutional knowledge. I love it. Oh, my God. So delicious. So that's my little shout out for Oreos. Yeah, there they are.

There they are. Wait, turn me computer. There they are. Those were discontinued. Is it literally just the cookie part of an Oreo? Yes. I mean, it's much skinnier. I can see. It's a wafer. And guys, have you ever had an icebox cake? Because that would be sad if you have not. I don't think I've ever had an icebox cake. Unless we would have made it for the show, I don't think I ever would have had it. Oh my gosh, I needed to bring you one today. Are they frozen fully? So, no. It's actually my first book was called Icebox Cakes. Nice. And so I'm kind of, can we just say expert?

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Okay, good. Yeah, good. And then like pointing to me. Because I don't want them to think you guys are the worst. No, no, no. We don't lie. We don't lie to the public. Right here. We'll have like a dumbass above our heads. Perfect. This podcast is about being honest and truthful. Yeah. But anyway, an icebox cake, oh my gosh, basically in its purest and most simplest form is literally like a crispy cookie and whipped cream.

And you layer them in whatever vessel you want to layer in. Okay. And then stick it in the fridge for maybe four hours, maybe six hours. The cookie part absorbs the moisture from the cream and turns cake-like. I wonder.

I wonder if it's like an East Coast, West Coast thing, do you think? Maybe. I feel like, when do you think icebox cakes peaked in time? Well, I think they started maybe in the 50s. Icebox makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a retro name. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But they are so delicious. And then you can do other fun things, like you can layer the cookies, but you could use pudding, you can use graham crackers, you could put like a layer of caramel, you could put a little jam. I believe the Italians call it tiramisu.

I made a tiramisu for Rosh Hashanah and let me tell you, it was fire. But it's kind of like somewhat the same, you know. What? Yes. Same texture-ish. You're so not wrong because it's like ladyfingers and cream. But

Put a little custard in there. Yeah, so good. A little bit of liquor. Can you tell me about the recipe? Sure. So what I did was I did. Did you make it up? No, no, no, I didn't. It was derived from an online recipe. Okay. I took my lady fingers. I bought the lady fingers. I'm not making my own lady fingers. I have a job. But then you put zucchini in there. No. You would think. But I brewed my own espresso. I have a little Breville espresso machine. I like pulled like four shots and I took liqueur 43, I believe it's called. Oh, yeah. Because I was on a Carajillo kick for

So I was like, screw it. Let's use that instead of like, what do they use? Marsala or like Kahlua. Screw it. Let's do it. So I used that and then I made my filling, I guess you can say. So I had a few pregnant people at my Rosh Hashanah. So I temped my egg yolks and I cooked them to make sure that they were... Was it like a sabayon? Yeah, it was...

It basically turned into a sabayon because I put sugar in there. Yep. So I whipped it up nice. Can I just say, you sound very expert. I wrote a children's baking book during the pandemic. Oh my, what? Barry the Lee. I know, right? Oh my gosh. I'm here pretending I know what I'm doing. Expert, expert. Algebra expert. Algebra. Algebra expert. Air algebra expert. Oh my gosh, hi.

Honey. Yeah. Incredible. Thanks. Thanks. And then I did like two tubs of mascarpone. I did hand whipped cream with some vanilla paste. When you say hand whipped, you mean you did it because you didn't want a dirtier stand mixer? Yeah, my stand mixer was, I don't know. But I love you for that because I hate, one of my things is baking easy. And one of the easy things that I like to do is not use any special equipment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that. Sorry to interrupt. No, you're fine. And then I folded that all in. Actually, there's a lot of salt in tiramisu. Like I put a lot of salt in mine to balance it all out because it's so bitter from the coffee and all the cocoa powder. So I do cocoa powder. I do my soaked ladyfingers. And then I put my cream. And then I did another layer of it. And then I finished it with my cocoa powder. And then I put little pomegranate seeds and little broccoli sprouts. And it looked like little flowers. Oh, my gosh.

Did you put, oh my gosh, broccoli on your tiramisu? I wish I had. Do I have my, I'll show you. You pooped through the zucchini and you used the broccoli. But you can't even taste it. It's micro broccoli sprouts and they look like little, it look like leaves. We have to take a short break and talk about your book.

It was a really cool book. It's called Bake Up. I wrote it during the pandemic. I did 60 recipes in four months, and it was really crazy. Honey, you're amazing. Thank you. It was really fun. I did it all in my mom's kitchen during the pandemic. It was very fast and very cool. And so all recipes aimed at kids? All aimed at kids. All easy. We did everything from homemade granola to cream puffs at the end. Honey, you're amazing.

Yeah, it was really cool. Yum and love. And also, even though I write books for adults, that's kind of how my books are. It's ice cream. Start with granola and with a cream. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you basically learn everything in between. And it was a very fun experience. And it was really cool. And I'm very lucky I got to do it. Honey, I love that story so much. Oh, my God. Thank you.

It was really hard, though, like pumping out a bunch of recipes like in a day while also like working from home for the show that we do. Like it was hard. Can I also say that this is another thing that I realized when writing a savory baking book, which is really cool because it's like sometimes dinner is a galette because it's part in your savory. When you are writing a sweet book, which I'm sure you experience, all you do is eat sweets. Like it's sweet.

kind of, even though I love sweets so, so much and I don't want sweets to have hurt feelings, it's kind of gross. Like literally you have like six cakes and four cookies and then you taste them. People always ask me like, how do you taste everything? And like, what is that experience like? And I always say like, if the recipe is really good, like if I'm, if I kind of hit it off the mark, then I'm like, oh, I'll

Just take a little taste and I'm done. If it is bad, I eat the entire thing. As punishment. It's like self-flagellation. I'm really mad at myself and so I'm just going to be like, eat this. Oh, really? I'm eating it so I can find out what's wrong with it because I'm confused why I got so mad. Me too, but then I'm also sad. Yeah, sure, sure. So it's a mixture. It's a mixture. Josh actually told me the other day, he's like, hey, why didn't you bring me any desserts while you were testing for your baking book? Do you remember that? You told me that. Did I say that?

Like two weeks ago you told me and I'm like, you live far away from me. My feelings must have been hurt about something else and I was just trying to start a fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joshy! Or you were just trying to get an apology. Joshy, I'm so sorry. It wasn't the sweets. It was about you caring about me, really.

You're saying I don't? I totally do. At that moment, it's like a lemon bar would have showed it. That's all I'm saying. And some of that tiramisu with broccoli on it. I bet Josh would have loved that. I should have. I should have. But yeah. You think I can make ladyfingers from scratch without a recipe just by vibing it right now? I was just going to ask if you had made the ladyfingers from scratch. I've made them before. It's just flour, egg, white sugar, right?

I don't know. Like off the top of my head. I have another free baking challenge coming up. Oh, no. I could not. I've tried it once and it was so abhorrent and embarrassing. Can't do it ever again. I think the problem with making ladyfingers from scratch, I have done it. I do not remember all of the ingredients, but all I will say is it's really hard to pipe them and get them to look

Technique-based. Not all ladies have straight, beautiful fingers. Exactly. It's like a lady WNBA player who's broken her fingers. Gnarled fingers. Intercepting passing ladies. 100%. 100%. They don't need to be uniform. Can't we just celebrate? Look at our fingers. We have really different fingers. But they're all beautiful. Pinkies don't go close to straight. That's the shape of lady finger I'm looking for. Josh, hold your pinky out straight. I'm trying. I'm always stretching. Is that because of a broken finger?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This one too. Both of them. Sports, man. So, my friends, what do we think? Is baking science? I'd say heck yeah, but it's a cool science. Yes. Everything science. I science, you science, we all science for science. Science for the win. Science for the win.

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And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility. Go to Indeed.com slash listen and tell them you heard about them from this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. All right, Nicole and Jesse. I've immediately adopted a 1930s radio announcer voice. We've heard what you and I have to say. Now it's time to find out what other wacky idiots are rattling out there in the universe. It's time for a little segment we call... Opinions on...

Oh, ate that up. And she's a cookbook writer. She is really amazing. She can do it all. I contain multitudes. You should see her at karaoke. Well, last time I saw her, she was... Nicole, what were you doing last time?

I was, I had a few bottles of lychee soju and I was rolling around on the floor singing Loneliest Day, right? Lonely Day by System of a Down. On the floor. Honey, alone? No, my husband was singing with me and he was there, Maggie was there.

Okay, good. It was a good time. I got worried because I was just picturing you like sad. No, no, no. I was with friends. It was already the week after we met too. It was at the VidCon weekend, which is after VidCon. That was a week. So it was a busy time. Yeah, it was a lot going on. It was a lot going on. Ready to get to that first opinion? Okay.

What is the difference between raw cane sugar and brown sugar? Because I've just been using it in baking. Oh, I love this. I've just been using it in baking, not knowing the difference.

Also, why was gruel really popular? Like, gruel? How do you say gruel? Gruel? Gruel de Vil. Why was gruel so popular around the world? Like, essentially, it's just like cooked grains, man, right? Oh, my gosh. Why was it so popular? Yeah.

Why was it so popular? This person is a genius, first of all. I love that you can go from cane sugar to gruel in one comment or phone message. Yeah, really nice. I really loved how that flowed. I'm going to go with...

I am surprised that there are recipes out there calling for cane sugar in a way. It's definitely different than brown sugar. I think I think of cane sugar as more of like a raw sugar. It's not turbinado sugar. It's not sugar in the raw. I know what it is. I think she's talking about white. I think she's talking about white sugar. Oh, she is. Yeah, yeah. So cane sugar is from sugar cane. And then what we get in America normally white sugar is from beets.

Not true. Is that not true? Did I get that wrong? Oh, wait. Oh, maybe. Yeah, no, I think not. Sugar beets? Potentially. Maybe you are right. I think I'm right. But just a minute. So where do you get candy?

From sugar cane. No, no, I get that. But where? Like in the grocery store? Yeah. I think it says on the container cane sugar. And then the white sugar in America, I believe, is from beets. And then brown sugar is just either of those sugars mixed with molasses. 100% true. But Josh, let me know if I got the beet sugar, cane sugar thing right. I'm trying to look it up, but that would make sense because I always thought that...

Yeah, cane sugar and white sugar were just interchangeable, but I suppose they're not because, like you said, sugar beets are a really popular way to, like, get refined sugar in America. But I'm just confused. Is there a country somewhere where it's just cane sugar? And if you walked in and were like, where's the granulated sugar? They'd be like, what are you talking about? We only have cane here.

Well, if you look at a lot of other country sugar, right? You go to Thailand, right? They sell like palm sugar, right? Which is, you know, syrup. It's all just syrup that's been cooked down and evaporated until it's able to be crumbled. Yeah, yeah. And so they have like palm sugar. So you can kind of make sugar out of a lot of different things and they like certainly have. But I don't think it's all sugarcane. I don't know.

don't know about that. But yeah, like you said, so brown sugar originally was like turbinado sugar or demerara, which is a more sugar in the raw capacity. Like sugar shouldn't be white. It should have some sort of brown color to it. 100%. But we made so much lily white ultra refined cane sugar that

that it was then cheaper to just add back molasses to that and sell that as brown sugar. Oh, I didn't realize that was actually the journey as to how we got there. And I want to say two things. First of all, are you guys going to fire me because I said cane sugar was raw sugar? No. We're not going to fire you. They might roast it. The people might roast it. But that's out of our control. On a performance improvement plan, we'll track your progress for the next 30 days. No pips. Thank you. No pips.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. And then also what I was going to say is, you know what's kind of cool? You can actually like make delicious brown sugar with granulated sugar and molasses at home if you do not have brown sugar. And it's actually like soft and fluffy and delicious. Right. And that's the end of my story. Well, let me ask you as a scientist. Yeah, please. So whenever I see – it's always weird because when I see granulated sugar and brown sugar in a recipe, I'm like what you really just want is slightly less brown sugar. Interesting.

So could you completely say a chocolate chip cookie, for instance, that normally uses a mix of brown and white? Yeah. Could you just use all white and then add, say, a teaspoon of molasses? Yes, you could. Sure. I don't see why you couldn't. Although, do you think it's possible, fellow scientists, do you think it's possible that there is something that happens when you mix the molasses with the white sugar to get it into this kind of fluff? It's definitely a very different consistency. Do you think that could have any impact?

Or do you really think it doesn't matter since in its base form it is just sugar and molasses, we can just throw in some molasses? Because you're absolutely right. Like why are we telling people, oh, you ran out of brown sugar? Just add this and mix it together and all you just say is, okay, add a teaspoon of molasses.

Yeah, I know what you mean because if you're – so if you make tortillas, right? Yeah. Like the great technique is you add the lard or you can use butter, any hydrogenated fat. You add it to the flour but then you have to work it with your hands to try and cover as much flour as possible with the fat because that inhibits gluten development. Yeah, like pie dough. Same thing. Exactly, like pie dough. And so like there are certain – again, like kind of little architectural procedures. Procedures, yeah.

But I don't know if that would come into play with the brown sugar. I don't know. Especially if you're beating it all up together. I know. I know. I don't know. I can't tell you. I can't tell you. Okay. I think it needs to be a test. Also, can one of you weigh in on gruel? Oh, I love gruel. I love gruel. Come on. Josh is the gruel guy, though. Why was gruel so popular? It's all they had. You know, that's all they had. They had a little bit of grain and like water that was safe when you boiled it. And so that was it. The agricultural revolution ruined humans' diets.

And then all they had was a little grain ration from whoever was growing it if it wasn't destroyed by blight or pests. And so, yeah, gruel is the cheapest, simplest way to feed a large amount of people. Josh's drag name is Gruella DeVille. That's why we both said it at the same time. Let's carry a bowl of barley porridge with me. Next one.

Hey, Josh and Nicole. I just wanted to put you on to a little family tradition that we do every summer. So whenever we're having a campfire, instead of making traditional s'mores, what we do is we take those little cubed baking caramels that Kraft makes, put those puppies on a roasting stick, put them over the fire until they're nice and gooey, and then you take

two Ritz crackers and sandwich the caramel together and the two Ritz crackers, and it makes the most delicious, salty, and sweet snack that, in my opinion, is far superior to s'mores. It is seriously so good, and if you've never tried it, you've got to give it a try. Okay. Godspeed.

Wow. I thought that was going in a very different direction. I was picturing a marshmallow filled with caramel. I thought you put the caramel on the stick, then you put the marshmallow, and then it was all a thing, and then you had graham crackers. I really love Ritz crackers, and I know it's off topic. For two seconds, can I just tell you about a recipe? Yes, we love tangents. Okay, good.

In my new savory baking book, listen to this. You take a Ritz cracker. You put a briny slice of your favorite pickle on top. You take a piece of Monterey Jack cheese. You put that on top. You do this to like 20 Ritz crackers. You stick that in the oven for like five minutes. You pull that sugar out and it is –

So un... That sounds so good. Does that sound so good or what? I love warm pickle cheese sandwich situations. Doesn't that sound incredible? That's all I want in my life. Yeah, thank you. I want to not work and eat little pickle sandwiches in my spare time. That's all I want in my life. Me too. I think you should be able to do that. I think that's an achievable goal. This is good. This is great. This is awesome. I think s'mores are one of the things that really could use some improvement.

I've never quite understood. Talking about architecture, you bite into a s'more, it just completely falls apart. The marshmallow is never hot enough to melt the chocolate or even bring the chocolate to a temperature that I enjoy. Or it's burned to a smithereen, and that's kind of nice, but not. But I think we're due for a new heatable over a fire filling with a different cracker, and I think they found a hell of an option here. I like it. I think it needs another component, but I'm trying to figure out

What it is, is it a... Potato chip. Potato chip? I thought you were just going to say potato. Zucchini. Zucchini. Yeah. I think Ritz cracker. But that's the potato chip. That's the salt and the crunch. Well, what do you mean? There's different types of crunch. A wavy, salty potato. Okay. Okay. Hold on. What if it's one Ritz cracker and then it's the caramel and then it's the chip?

And that's it. There's no top Ritz cracker. Would that work? Am I the only one who thinks we need a little? Because I love like chocolate and caramel. Nobody wants a little bit of melted chocolate. I'm done with chocolate. I'm out on chocolate. I'm done. I'm out on chocolate. I'm over it. I'm done. I know we're just talking about eating a handful of it, but whatever. I think. Okay. Just caramel and Ritz. What about white chocolate?

I know it's just extra sugar, but then you have a different textural component. Yeah. At least. Or we're forgetting about a marshmallow. I'm worried that I'll be thirsty, but maybe that's not a problem. You know what? You know what? Does a s'more not make you thirsty? Not at all. Why would a s'more make you thirsty? The marshmallow is very hydrating. Okay.

You're in a post-apocalyptic world leeching water from the marshmallows in the store. No, no, no. I got it, friends. All you're going to do, you're going to take one of those mini Babybel cheeses, okay? Where's this going? Wait. You're going to heat it on the s'more stick? I'm going to heat that. So just get rid of what this person said. Don't even think about it. Delete it from your memory. You're going to take a mini Babybel cheese, the one in the red thing, okay? You're going to put it over that. You're going to take your Ritz cracker. You're going to take a pickle and a prosciutto. Wrap it all up. And then that's going to be your new s'mores. It's going to be your savory s'mores delight. Okay.

And it's not, I'm not going to copyright it. I'm not going to trademark it. Like, you can just do it. Can I steal it and put it in my next book? No. Okay. Because can I just say that melted, can I just say melted cheese on a stick? Yum. Is there anything better than melted cheese on a stick? No, no. That's what we've been missing. We've been thinking, we need to think outside the box. S'mores don't need to be sweet. No. This is like a savory s'more revolution. Yes. Oh, that's interesting. Yes. Yes.

Because a lot of people just – you roast a wiener over the fire, but then you don't upgrade it. You just let it stay as a wiener. But if we took that like – speaking of algebra, we love cured beets roasted over a fire. We do. Add cheese to that. Add a cracker. Cured beets? Cured meats. Oh, I thought you said – I was really upset. Cured meats over a fire. Cured meats over a fire. The hot dog on a stick exists over a fire. Yes. S'mores exist over a fire. But you take the architecture of a s'more with the ethos of loving a roasted cured meat –

I think we found something good there. Savory s'mores. Yum. That's the future. One more, Maggie. One more, two more. One more. Hi, Josh and Nicole. This is Holly. I'm coming from Walkertown, North Carolina. Woohoo! And I'm just saying one of the best foods in the world is a corn casserole. Oh.

Now, let me tell you, a corn casserole consists of the Jiffy cornbread, some corn in a can, cream cheese, butter, and sour cream. And you bake that at 350 for 40 minutes. And let me tell you, you're going to have the best cornbread muffins in the world. You want Southern Southern? There you go. I love you guys. I hope you guys have a wonderful everything. Thank you for all you do.

I love you. Thank you. We love you, too. There's a lot of love there. Just a minute. That sounds amazing, but why does it have to be a muffin? I want it to be like in a 9x9x2 inch square baking pan and like kind of almost like a little bit soft, almost like a spoon bread. You're right. You're right. Just going to say spoon bread. Correct. Correct. Correct. Oh, my God.

this started to go viral on TikTok like three, four years ago. Did it? They were calling it corn pudding, but it was very much a spoon bread. Yeah. And yeah, I made it for Thanksgiving. I loved it. It's one of the best things in the world. So yummy. Oh my gosh. I mean, it sounds like I have to make it and eat it immediately. You do. With Ritz crackers. Also, I love cream cheese. Can I just go on the record? Cream cheese is like

one of my favorite things. If you feel comfortable going on the record. Yeah, I do. I do. I want everyone to know I love cream cheese. So when she said cream cheese, I got excited. Yeah, yeah. She's going to say sleep on it maybe. Have you guys heard about, what is that? Nufinchel? Nufchatel. Nufchatel cheese. What is the correlation between nufchatel, whatever you just said, cheese and cream cheese?

It's not as good. Right? Yeah, it's literally low-fat cream cheese that was rebranded. Is it low-fat cream cheese? I think cream cheese, I think Neufchâtel is a town in Switzerland, I believe. Maggie, can you fact check that? Because I think Neufchâtel is a town. I think they make a creamy cheese, but I think it was a way that American cream cheese companies could rebrand low-fat cream cheese. It's N-E-U-F. I don't know. C-H-A-T-E-L. Yeah, sorry. That was tough. That was tough.

No, Chateau, where to buy? But yeah, I think that's what I grew up understanding. It's a France. It's in France, yeah. Cool. Yeah, I always saw it like in the stores and I'm so glad I never picked it up.

That's it. That's all I want to talk about. I don't love cream cheese. I don't think it tastes... You don't like cream cheese? I like it on a bagel. Do you like whipped cream cheese? I don't like cream cheese frosting. I just think of like an American buttercream. Yeah, no, I love American buttercream for life. Do you like whipped cream cheese? No, I hate whipped cream cheese. What? I love whipped cream cheese. I don't hate it. I don't hate it. But I really do love cream cheese. Oh, man. Sometimes it's too thick. Ooh.

Sling that over your shoulder. For emphasis. I love that you sling that over your shoulder like you're going out on the prairie. Oh, yeah, you know, tough day. Tough day at work. Put my whip over my shoulder and head out. One more. Come on. Let's live a little bit. One more. Give us a juicy one. Give us a controversial one.

Jesse can take it. Yeah, right. Hi, Josh and Cole. My name is David, and I have two opinions. First of all, it is not hard to become a judge at an eating competition. I literally managed to become the culinary judge at a state-level baking competition by simply just asking questions.

the judge, if I could partake. Did you challenge him to this? If you were a decent baker, you could probably medal in a baking competition. 99% of the people who enter these competitions

are mostly older women who can only cook with diabetic level ingredients and haven't really tasted anything without the taste of a cigarette for the last 20, 30 years. So if you are a somewhat decent baker, I strongly beg of you.

Do please, please, please try your hand at your state-level competition. I guarantee you're probably going to place at least somewhere in the top five. Depends on the state. Okay. I'm not happy. I'm not happy either. First of all, I think that the stuff that comes out of state fairs in the baking realm is all the best things in the world, like pies and cookies and cream pies and –

All of the deliciousness. So first of all, I just love all of that at any fair. And second of all, diabetic? No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Sugar's fine. Those are like really great, be they women or men, who's ever like putting forth their delicious baked goods. I'm not getting diabetic vibes that much.

At all. Yeah, I don't know. You are being, I had to Google this word, duplicitous. David, you are being just a little bit duplicitous in what you are talking about. I think it depends on what state you're in where you can just go up and say, hey, can I be a judge? Like, I think it depends. Like, if you're like in Iowa or Kansas, probably.

probably if you're in New York or like Florida they'll probably look at you a little weird but I don't know I've never done that before normally people ask me to judge things I don't go and ask to judge also duplicitous I don't agree with you what they're putting cottage cheese and applesauce in the buckle they're putting nufinchel nufchitel they're definitely not nufchitelling at the state fair this is just a little bit ridiculous I competed in one of these once

I was 25 years old. It was brought to you by Chevron in the greater Los Angeles area. And I thought you were going to win $50,000 cash. Turns out it was $50,000 worth of Chevron gasoline. But I digress. That's so good. Did you win? It was a tailgate challenge. No, no, no. And I submitted. Oh, I remember the recipe. It was like you had to cook with Chevron ingredients. It was a Dr. Pepper barbecue sauce, like Flamin' Hot Cheeto, crusted onion ring, Western bacon cheeseburger kind of situation. No way. That all sounds amazing to me. I showed up to the live cook-off. It was at the Coliseum at a USC football game.

And the judge was Charles Olalia, the chef, who opened Mam's Sir, James Beard Award winning restaurant. Right, love Mam's Sir. And then Rodney Peet, who was a quarterback that finished second in the Heisman voting. But anyways, the type of women that he's describing, right? Like he's like, oh, these old women, they showed up. It was me and four of them. They all make a full time living on these circuits of competitive live cooking competitions held by brands. Wow.

And like they all came in with like sashes and medals. They looked like five star generals and they wiped the floor with my ass. And literally like this one, I remember she brought her own deep fryer and was like, I thought it said that we weren't allowed to have our own equipment. She was like, rookie, huh? Yeah, I just wrote him a little appeal and they allowed me to bring this fryer because my contract with Hormel. And I was just like, what? And I got rocked.

So, no, I have nothing but respect for those people. Me too. Me three. Nothing wrong with having diabetes, but I don't think they're baking for diabetics. That was crazy. That's a crazy story, Josh. Yeah, yeah. And then Rodney Pete stole my hat because I wore a UCLA hat, and he stole it. And so, Rodney Pete, if you're listening, and I know you are, I know you're out there, give me that hat back. And, Rodney, we want to know if you think baking is a science, so please let us know at your earliest convenience.

Jessie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you guys for having me. It was really fun. Of course, of course. Everyone check out Jessie's cookbook, and the name of that is? Salty, cheesy, herby, crispy, snackable bakes. Thank you so much for listening to Hot Dog is a Sandwich. We have new audio-only episodes every Wednesday, and the video comes out on Sundays. If you want to be featured on Opinions or Like Casseroles, hit us up at 833-DOG-POD-1. Our number again is 833-DOG-POD-1. And for more Mythical Kitchen, check out our other videos. We launch new ones every week. You know the deal. We'll see you all next time. Bye! Bye!

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