Is $TRUMP an Open Wallet for Foreign Actors? With Kevin Cirilli and Natalie Brunell
42:59 Share

In the fall of 2014, a group of hackers pulled off the biggest Hollywood heist of all time. They broke into computer servers belonging to Sony Pictures and released hundreds of thousands of top-secret documents. The attack would cause an international incident, upend thousands of lives, and change the movie industry forever. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Raftery, and this is The Hollywood Hack. Listen on the Big Picture feed.

the most anticipated new releases with a Disney Plus Hulu Max bundle. Up for an adventure? Always. On Max, the HBO original The White Lotus returns. What is this place? Explore the Marvel Universe with What If on Disney Plus. Avenger, assemble. And on Hulu, read between the lines on Paradise. You were the last to see the president alive. Plus so much more. Here we go.

It's the ultimate bundle for an unbelievable price. With plans starting at $16.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit DisneyPlusHuluMaxBundle.com for details.

Oh, it's such a clutch off-season pickup, Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those blackout motorized shades. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install. Hall of Fame's son? They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the GOAT. Shop Blinds.com right now and get up to 45% off select styles, plus a professional measure. Rules and restrictions may apply.

♪♪♪

Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. On this show, we are going to talk about the crypto industry because it's here to stay since Donald Trump has ushered in the age of this digital currency, especially with his own meme coin, which has enriched him beyond what anyone could ever imagine. So we're going to talk about the implications of that.

Is he just spoofing the industry or is he giving foreign actors a way to line his wallet? There are so many implications and we're going to dig into that with my two guests. But first, I want to talk about something that almost sounds cliche, even though it's only been a few weeks, but

Democrats in the wilderness. They seem absolutely leaderless right now, or at least there's an inspirational void going on right now in the party. They just can't seem to keep up with the latest Trump controversy, whether he's trying to remove birthright citizenship, which is obviously unconstitutional, or he fires inspector generals on a Friday night, or the latest power grab in which he said he will freeze all federal grants and loans that don't reflect his worldview, which could really be anything. Eh.

And at the same time, Donald Trump just keeps steamrolling forward and Democrats, they seem like ants and you don't really hear anything from them. I mean, at least they're not breaking through, even if they are making noise. So last week I reported something that made the Democratic base go absolutely apoplectic and frankly, disgusting.

went after me on Blue Sky, which is the new X alternative for Democrats. I reported that some Democrats see John Fetterman from Pennsylvania as a possible antidote to Donald Trump. You know him. He's bald. He wears shorts and a sweatshirt on the Senate floor. He's a senator from Pennsylvania, shoots from the hip, very blunt, says it like it is.

looks like a working class guy, does not even dress up in business attire for work, essentially. And he's kind of valued, at least in the new media, for his authenticity. He's been on Joe Rogan. It's a place where a lot of Democrats are afraid to go. Remember, Joe Rogan invited Kamala Harris to go on his show and she said no. And then in the end, Joe Rogan gave Trump the endorsement, which probably helped him with Gen Z.

So after Donald Trump won, he trekked down to Mar-a-Lago to show that he could work with him. Let's face it. Pennsylvania is a purple state that voted for Trump. And John Fetterman has to be center left. I mean, he did run further to the left during his election a few years ago, but he also co-sponsored the Lake and Riley Act on deporting immigrants. And he is very pro-Israel, which is another reason why the Democratic base hates him. And listen, I'm not saying that he's a pro-Israel.

I'm not saying he's going to be president. I don't even think he wants to be president. And I think his health conditions, remember he had a stroke a few years ago, probably preclude him from that. But he could be the voice, a voice that is shoot from the hip, willing to fight with anyone and speak plainly, kind of like Trump, a voice that kind of redefines a party that's sort of been known as a little too sanctimonious. And that's probably why they didn't connect with Gen Z.

After all, where's the resistance? It's just not working. And the Democrats know that. I mean, there's no one like Nancy Pelosi on the floor right now leading the troops with her. Hell no. And Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, the other two leaders, they're busy licking their wounds, organizing and trying to convince donors that they should keep giving them money after the

all the money that was spent, over a billion dollars on this last election. But then again, you have John Fetterman, who is willing to pick fights, and he actually breaks through. Like when he stuck up for trans kids and he says, it doesn't make you a man to pick on trans or gay kids, it makes you an asshole. Maybe he offers Democrats that version of masculinity that's a counterpoint to Donald Trump and appeals to Gen Z. But like I said, he's not a party man and...

What I've heard from my sources on the Hill is that Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, they're sort of just waiting for Donald Trump to trip and fall. They think that he is in the honeymoon right now, the next 100 days, he may really act on his mandate.

And they believe, though, he will ultimately fall because of excessive power grabs or the inevitable mismanagement of government. And they'll be able to step in at that moment and have a clear message. Hopefully they'll have figured it out by then. And in that time, they're hoping to have a wide range of voices across the ideological spectrum of the left that can speak for them. But it might just be a cacophony of noise and they might be better off just having one person. Is it John Fetterman?

Some Democrats think so. I mean, he did give them cover, a bunch of them, to vote for the Lake and Riley Act. And Republicans are even giving him a second look, too. If you don't agree with me, feel free to shoot me an email or attack me on Blue Sky. Okay. Donald Trump made $58 billion in a week, making him one of the top 25 richest people in the world, richer than Vladimir Putin.

And it was all through a meme coin, considered a joke in the crypto industry. Some even consider meme coins to be borderline predatory and a type of gambling because the only people who seem to make money are the ones who are in and out very quickly and everyone else seems out. Just look at the Hawk Tua meme coin that came out. But what if this meme coin is here to stay because it's connected to the president of the United States? Well,

well then certainly it should have some more value and staying power. But who exactly is buying it? Are these the same people who are buying Trump vodka, Trump Bibles, Trump meat, and those $100,000 watches he's selling? Or are they just like regular crypto bros?

Or are they foreign actors like adversaries, people from China, Iran, Russia, who are trying to have influence over our president by lining his digital wallet? After all, all the transactions are completely hidden. And it has been reported that the top transactions came from first time buyers overseas. Yeah, that's right.

So is this a new reality that we have to live with? Trump has ushered in a new wave of legitimacy for crypto and it's even shadier offshoots like the meme coin. So are they here to stay? And if so, how are they going to regulate it? What is the Trump administration's vision for crypto and meme coins? So to get down to the bottom of it, I have two crypto experts on my show. Natalie Brunel,

host of the Coin Stories podcast, a Bitcoin advocate, and MTF.TV's Kevin Cirilli, a former chief Washington correspondent for Bloomberg News. Guys, thanks so much for joining the show. I'm really lucky to have you on because I really don't know a ton about Bitcoin and crypto, but obviously I'm following all the latest, especially as a political reporter, since our president is now fully involved in the industry and movement, you could say.

But Kevin, I wanted to start with you on some of the latest breaking news. Congressman Ro Khanna was on Bill Maher this past weekend, and he said that they attract the transactions to Trump's meme coin and that the biggest transactions came from overseas. Many of them were foreign new wallets with no other crypto assets. They weren't your typical crypto bros, you could say. And it looked

like they were only giving money to Trump and because you can't really trace the transactions like who they belong to, Ro Khanna compared it to a Swiss bank account because it's all done in secret. You don't know who's depositing it. Well,

What do you make of this? Like, is this an open door to backdoor bribes to the president? Well, Democrats are saying that that's exactly what's happening, but Republicans will push back on that. What would Republicans say when they're pushing back on it? Just curious. That this is an opportunity for the United States to maintain its posturing as a dominant digital currency in the global marketplace and that

bad actors like China and Russia or the Communist Party of China would fill the vacuum. But I think we got to take a step back here. First of all, thank you for having me, my friend. And congrats on your success. You too. And thrilled to be on the Natalie as well. When we talk about crypto, the word transparency often gets thrown around a lot. Supporters of cryptocurrencies and digital currencies, they're like,

This is exactly why we need this type of thinking in the financial markets, because Wall Street and the dollar and all these other traditional currencies or gold for that matter, there hasn't been really an ability for there to be

more equality in terms of who has access to it. On the flip side of that, now you have critics of digital currencies saying, well, this is not transparent enough and that it's too risky and that there's not enough transparency. So both sides are hijacking that term. But this is a battle royale where Democrats in the new Congress are going to specifically target this. But I have to tell you something, and I'm sure Natalie remembers this.

I remember covering back in 2014 some of the early hearings on Bitcoin, on cryptocurrency, on whether or not the Federal Reserve was going to take a more aggressive posturing in this sector and the

The Congressional Black Caucus was working across the aisle with more rural Republicans because they saw digital currency, Bitcoin, cryptocurrency, they saw this as an opportunity for more access to capital for underserved communities. So I'm not sure that all of the Democrats are on the same page here.

in terms of specifically going after this industry. And do they still feel that way? Do they still, they think that there's more opportunity? It's interesting because you're right. I mean, this is the first time that you're seeing a subcommittee in the Senate Financial Committee on...

cryptocurrency on Bitcoin and digital currency. That's unprecedented, right? But others say, you know, it can be predatory towards these same groups of people. But let's bring it back to Trump. Like, how does it open the door to backdoor bribes? Because that's exactly what Ro Khanna is trying to say, and namely from foreign governments. Yeah, and I think, and look, I think when you look at it from the perspective of transparency and what this is going to do, I think that you're seeing Congressman Khanna

has a real clear line of attack. And you're seeing some of the letters that are circulating on Capitol Hill as well. But in the flip side of that, the Republicans are going to come back and they're going to say, well, wait a minute. If Trump doesn't lead the way on crypto, Xi Jinping will. And you're already seeing even many of certain Democrats who are

are looking at this thinking, darn it, why didn't we think of that? Like who? I think if you look at the center-left movement, they're absolutely livid that they didn't think of getting in with regards to the cryptocurrency. Is this privately or have they made any comments? I think if you look at some of the center-left groups that they're definitely thinking, why didn't we think of this? Why didn't we monetize this? In the way that the Republicans had. I mean, if you look at the people who are

the new investors, how many times have we heard Senator Elizabeth Warren say that there's only a small percentage of folks who are invested in the stock market? Okay, we'll contrast that with the ability of a newer, younger generation, Tara. And when you've got Jamie Dimon this week saying they're just waiting, the banks are waiting for the regulatory go-ahead to be more invested in digital currencies.

I mean, how many, if you look at what this new innovation has been able to do for investors under 40 in particular, I mean, they've been able to do what Wall Street hasn't been able to do

In like decades, they've been able to do it in a couple of years. Yeah, I do remember talking to some treasury officials during Trump's first term and they were like, we don't know much about crypto. We don't know how to regulate it. They didn't want to go anywhere near it, really. But the president obviously has a stake in this game. He created a Trump meme coin that was worth $56 billion overnight. Natalie, he announced it on Twitter.

right before the inauguration while you were at the Crypto Ball where Snoop Dogg was performing. Did you notice a mood change at the party when Trump made this announcement that he'd come out with his own meme coin? No, I have to be honest with you. I didn't even hear about it until last week.

It was a very exciting evening. A lot of Bitcoiners are feeling a lot of positive momentum that finally Bitcoin will be recognized and legitimized by the highest office in the country. And I'll be honest with you, a lot of us were really disappointed when we heard news about the Trump meme coin. I'm a passionate advocate for Bitcoiners.

Bitcoin and not crypto at large because Bitcoin addresses the biggest problems that I think we face economically, whereas crypto is largely a space of digital equities or digital securities. And this is precisely why we need more of a regulatory framework, which I think we'll finally get in this administration to sort of clarify what makes a digital security, what makes a

digital commodity, what makes a digital currency like a stable coin. And so that investors have more of that transparency that Kevin was talking about. So they know what they're investing in. Now was the Trump and were the Melania and Trump meme coins transparent in who owned them, who owned the, the, the meme coins?

I mean, I would argue kind of yes. On the website, you could see that the majority were owned by insiders and the public was offered only about 20%. Yeah. 80% of the tokens are owned by Trump org and he collects fees on the sales. Exactly. So that was published right there on the front page, that pie of ownership. So I think that's on the investor also to do their homework and to know how much risk they're taking on potentially by investing in one of these coins. But

I think anyone would have expected that this might have turned into a little bit of a bubble a year or two ago. Trump released an NFT. There was kind of something similar. But at the end of the day, I want people to kind of hone in on the fact that these types of

cryptocurrencies and projects, they have an issuer. They have counterparty risk. You are trusting a group of people and they can print as much of this as they want to and they can give it to themselves. And that's my great concern because that's what makes Bitcoin different. No one can print it. It has a finite, scarce supply cap of 21 million coins. There's no one in control of it. It is

is truly decentralized. It's backed by energy. And so it makes it very different and it addresses the problems that we have with our money. Whereas things like the Trump meme coin, they kind of replicate the issues that we have in our current financial system. So I'm disappointed, but I'm cautiously optimistic that maybe he's just gotten bad advice and that he'll turn around. Can I jump in on that though? Cause that's a really, really important point to make that Natalie just made, which is

I think a lot of times if you're coming into this blind and not really in the financial nerdy, I say that as a compliment, Natalie, nerdy weeds of this industry, it's really easy to lump all digital assets or cryptocurrencies together. And what just happened in the last week is that Donald Trump absolutely took a giant knife and said, here are the battle lines. I am not just team Bitcoin.

I am not just team Bitcoin at all. And if you dig a little deeper, this is where the personality of Elon Musk really collides with the policy here because Elon Musk has taken the same approach. Right, Natalie? And if you look at Dogecoin or you look at what's happening with the Trump and Melania meme coins, it is essentially saying we're actually going to diversify away from Bitcoin. And that has a lot of folks saying,

sizing up a lot of risk right now in this space. Yeah, I mean, the meme coin has already lost a lot of value. It was $56 billion overnight. I'm not really sure where it is right now. Maybe you guys know. But maybe you can explain to our listeners, Natalie, the difference between a Bitcoin and a meme. Because a meme coin is like a joke kind of of a coin, right? Like even the Hawk Tua girl had a meme coin that kind of

went down tragically overnight. Is Trump just trolling the crypto industry by creating his own meme coin? I mean, I don't know what his intentions are. And you got to look at outcomes, not intentions. That's what I'm a big believer in. But

it goes back to whether there's an issuer. If there's a group of people or even one single person that can literally punch in code and create out of thin air a certain amount of tokens that they then sell to the public, I would argue that that is a security. There is an intention or a motive of profit

And there needs to be certain disclosures that are made. That's why we have securities laws in place. And yes, they're from 1933 and no, this technology was not around. So maybe we do need an update and some clarification. But at the end of the day, if it's a security, investors need to know the risks.

Bitcoin is completely different. It has been deemed by both the SEC, the CFTC and all regulators that it is a true commodity. It is a digital commodity, which means an asset with no issuer. It is truly decentralized. You have to expend resources like energy in order to mine Bitcoin or you have to expend resources in the form of buying it with your money.

And so it's something that no one can control and no one can manipulate, which I think addresses, again, some of these core problems that we have. We have a financial system right now that is a monopoly. The central bank controls our money. They can add to the supply whenever they want. They can...

allow banks to increase their lending, which increases the supply of money, which adds to inflation. And Bitcoiners are trying to say, hey, there's a better system that does provide more opportunity and inclusivity for the majority of people and prevents their savings from being eroded, which is a finite supply. It is a money that cannot be manipulated, that can't be inflated. And so I really want

people to do their homework because crypto at large, again, full of different companies and projects, I don't know what their intentions are. I don't know what their plans are. And I don't know what a lot of these protocols are about. Bitcoin is very, very different and addresses the fundamental issues we have with money and can serve as the base layer for global money. And I think that the United States will have it in its reserves because it's an institutional or sovereign nation state grade asset. Okay. Just for full disclosure, are you guys invested in Bitcoin or meme coins? I

I'm only invested in Bitcoin. What about you, Kevin? I am not. No. Are you? No. Are you invested in Wall Street? Yeah, I have S&P. Yeah, I buy stocks twice a month. So yeah, I am invested in that. It's just a disclosure to the listeners to know if you're a proponent or not of this industry. I am not. I am not sponsored by the crypto industry. Okay. I want to go back to this whole idea of Bitcoin and meme coin. Like,

Can you just explain it a little bit more clearly to the listener, the difference between a meme and a Bitcoin? Oh, gosh. I mean, how do you describe a meme? I mean, it's just based on nothing. It's based on a trend. It's based on a joke. Again, someone can create as easily as they create a website, right? Let's zoom out and talk about the start of the internet because I think it makes a good analogy for the difference between Bitcoin and some of these other technologies. Yeah.

Um, so anyone can spin up a website, right? And we had a.com boom and bubble in the 1990s. I was very young at the time, so I didn't really appreciate, um, the impact of the early internet in some of these companies, but we had like pets.com and all these, they had stadiums names on stadiums, and then they blew up when the tech bubble, uh, crash. And it was just possible for anyone to create a website. And it's possible for any of us to create one as well. It's

There are now tens of thousands of cryptocurrencies because anyone can just spin one up with code. Bitcoin was created in 2009. It was ethically just released as a form of software that literally anyone can download and start to mine. And it's slowly distributed globally around the world. And no one can influence that protocol in the same way that no one can...

can kind of influence or centralize or attack the internet at large, right? You can't, the internet can maybe be shut off in a certain place because of a natural disaster or something within a local jurisdiction of government, but you can't shut off the internet around the entire world. It has no central point of failure. It has no headquarters. It has no board of governors. It has no one directing it.

Bitcoin is the same way. It's a network. It's an open source protocol that any of us can access and log into. Whereas these other cryptocurrencies are largely controlled by small groups of people. So in the case of a meme coin, it's controlled by whoever created it. They pushed buttons of code and they have access to as much of that supply as they want. They can sell some of it. They can keep all of it. They can create more. They can collapse the supply. They can do whatever they want.

That has a lot of risk in it. So when you're investing in a meme coin, you're basically going to the casino. And I urge you to really take caution because some people, I get it, you're struggling today economically and it's like you just won a lottery ticket and you're hearing about people turning $1,000 into a million. But again, you're taking a gamble. It's not any different from going to a casino. Whereas Bitcoin has a track record of 15 years. It's globally distributed and decentralized and it is an asset class that has been...

legitimized by both Wall Street, by the political powers that be. And it is truly something that has value because it's backed by energy. But it wasn't always like that. And that's the flip side. I think this is so important because there is so much significant risk, no matter where you invest your money. But to Natalie's point, Bitcoin is top dog right now. I mean, I would argue. And so

It wasn't always like that, though. So the supporters of meme coins, what they would argue is, well, Donald Trump now has their back. Elon Musk now has their back. So give us a couple of years and watch what happens. So I think it's a really fascinating... And Natalie, you're the expert on this, but it's a really fascinating inter-wonk war happening right now within the industry where...

that is one to watch because no one would have ever thought that meme coins or doge would ever really be a thing, but it shows just how one person can post on X or can go on social media or post on Reddit and really drive significant

what we would call on Wall Street, like reputational risk or headline risk. Now it's like meme risk. And all of that's just really, really interesting. Yeah, no, I think that was exactly what I was going to ask. Like, do we have to take meme coin more seriously because it's connected to the president of the United States or at least this meme more seriously? Well, of course you know the answer to that. Yes. I certainly hope not.

I certainly have not. Well, she did seriously in terms of talking about it. Like we got a transparency sake. But does it add value to the idea of meme coin? To him talking about it, it definitely makes it more relevant. Like if I bought a meme coin, it might be worth more than it was last week or before the inauguration. You're just gambling. I mean, you're just a speculator at that point. And look at what he did with DJT Media. I mean, if you saw even the DJT Media stock on the exchange, I mean, every time there was when he bombed the debate,

people lost money. But it's this concept of trading off of geopolitical risk is not new. Like, let's be blunt. This isn't going on for as long as there's been money. Yeah, but it's rare to have the president of the United States like so deeply involved in an industry. No,

Not necessarily. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think presidents have always been involved in industries. I think this is the first time that there's been a meme coin and there's this new currency and digital currency. But presidents, you know, I mean, Bush was really big into energy. And, you know, I mean, so it's it's a new technology, I think, is what you're trying to say. I think I don't want to put words in your mouth.

But it's a new technology. And because of that, in the financial system, because of that, we're seeing this conversation come to the forefront. And there's going to be questions about it. Don't you have to divest as a president, though, in whatever industries you're invested in? There are definitely regulations that I don't have off the top of my head. I'd have to get back to you. I really hope that he just is getting bad advice.

I do. I hope the intentions are good. Again, if you go to the websites, it does disclose that 80% is basically owned by the people that are issuing this token and that the Trump family has a huge stake in that. But on the flip side, it does make me cautious about what the future will look like in terms of the regulatory front, because there have to be certain rules of the road in place. Because yes, anyone can issue one of these tokens. So what does that mean and what are the risks?

When we talk about DJT or we talk about public companies, there's a massive threshold, right? The SEC governs this. It goes back to the 1933 securities law. And you have to disclose a lot. And you basically have to have $40 million for a company to go public today. The crypto industry has come in and largely said, why? Why do we have to have $40 million when I can literally issue something and do an ICO overnight and I can trade something 24-7?

they have a point in some ways. I think, again, we need a regulatory framework to better understand what makes a digital security, what disclosures are needed, what do investors actually need to know so that they can properly invest without losing their entire life savings. So I think that this is just weeding into a lot of gray areas. And the fact that the president is doing this before we have that clarity, that's what disappoints a lot of us. And I wish he just focused on Bitcoin. Do you think it will have any financial damage on everyday Americans? Well, I

think it already has. I mean, Dave Portnoy, the CEO of Barstool Sports, revealed that he lost like $200,000 trading Melania coin. I mean, some people just they don't learn their lessons while trading these altcoins. It's just like going to a casino. I urge people to be really, really careful. You got to do your homework and you have to read those disclosures. If there's if there's a pie chart sitting right there saying 80 percent of this is owned by this family,

Maybe you don't want to be part of the 20% that actually invest or you're going to have to time it really well. Once it starts to go up, don't get greedy. Take it out and put it into something safer.

Kevin, do you think that Trump has a vision for crypto? Does he have regulatory policies or deregulatory policies? Because he seems to be more for deregulation than regulatory policies. And are these, you know, for better or worse? I think to Natalie's point that the new Trump administration has been very clear that they want the U.S. to be dominant in this space. And I think that that's why there's a lot of optimism in the industry, even if we pull out of the

enter meme coin versus Bitcoin and all that stuff. But I think that there's a lot of optimism, according to the folks that I'm speaking with, that this will usher in a new era of the US being dominant. I think

Everyone's talking about inflation and what the Fed's going to do with the rate hikes and all that. But I think the Federal Reserve, weirdly enough, could actually end up being one thing that could... They've got a say in this too. I think Natalie also mentioned about Bitcoin being a reserve. There's definitely...

some policies up on Capitol Hill of, I think, Senator Cynthia Loomis, Natalie, right? She wants to have, she wants to create a Bitcoin reserve and to have it in the national reserves. So I think it's here to stay. I think, again, I mean, when you look at it from the perspective of just how much technology has moved so quickly,

I would say arguably, and it'd be fascinating to know Natalie's thoughts on this, I think quantum computing right now could pose some of the most significant risk from a security standpoint to this entire industry, just in terms of

just from a cyber risk standpoint. So I think that there's risk. It's a different type of risk than Wall Street investors are typically used to dealing with. But I think that Trump's orbit has really made this a complete 180 of policy from the Biden administration. And I think it's forcing Democrats to have to really figure out what's their position going to be

in the next decade or so. And how do you think Trump's crypto czar, David Sachs, will leverage this opportunity? I think this is the first crypto czar we've ever had, right? Or did Biden have a crypto czar? I think he's a boon for the industry. But in addition to that, when you've got the task force at SEC, Hester Pierce, he's another person who is pro-crypto. I think when you look at

Gary Gensler's departure from the SEC. And you've got Atkins now there. I think it's a very friendly crypto environment regulations, which, again, is pretty typical when you look at whoever is president, you know, nominating people that align with their with their policies. Natalie, do you think that crypto could help reduce the national debt?

Will it help the US economy? A thousand percent Bitcoin would help us. We need something like Bitcoin. Most importantly, I think the individual and the companies that are here in America, they should embrace it because anyone who adopts Bitcoin is economically empowered and it saves you from the biggest problem that I think we face, which is currency debasement and the manipulation of our money. So absolutely.

And when you look at our country, we desperately need something like this. We need a return to a money that's backed by something and not just printed out of thin air. And we've seen the wealth concentration that results from a system that is so manipulated where we have to keep going further and further into debt. Right now, Bitcoin is tiny. It represents a $2 trillion market cap.

Our unfunded liabilities right now are $200 trillion. And we are right now running such high fiscal deficits, ones that we haven't seen since the last time we were actually in a recession. We're not even in a recession and we're running these crazy deficits. We have to do something to address our spending and our debt. So having a strong asset on our balance sheet like Bitcoin, which appreciates over time compared to these fiat currencies that are constantly debased. Yes, absolutely. I think that we should...

100% embrace it. But for me, it's more important that the individual embraces Bitcoin so that they can stop stressing so much over how expensive everything around them is getting. Because in the Bitcoin world, everything's actually getting cheaper. That's one of the big reasons why I do what I do. I want to advocate for this because I think it's the single most empowering tool for the individual.

not just here in America, but around the world. And I would love to see our country make smarter decisions when it comes to our financial well-being. We used to be an economic powerhouse, and now we're the world's largest debtor nation. And that greatly concerns me because it has largely affected my generation, millennials, Gen Z. It's why none of us can afford a house. It's why all of us are so frustrated and feeling so left behind. We need to level the playing field with something like Bitcoin. And I believe that it can happen. Do you think that

there'll be any implications on national security, though, in terms of the fact that like someone could show Trump, you know, here's my Bitcoin wallet could be like President Putin, an oligarch, Iran, China. And they can say, look, I gave you a billion dollars. I'm not sure what

What exactly are you asking about that? I mean, the best thing about Bitcoin is it is completely a transparent blockchain, meaning that anyone can, they don't have to trust it, they can verify it themselves. If there's a wallet that's associated with someone, you can literally look at every single transaction that goes in and out. I would argue that it's far more transparent than our current system, which is very, very opaque.

largely in the shadows, and you don't know what's going on at any given bank. I mean, with Bitcoin, you can literally look at every transaction all the way to the beginning of the blockchain, which was released in 2009. So it's a more transparent system. And when it comes to the military and the strategic sort of defense aspect of Bitcoin, well, we need to advance to cryptographic security. I mean, our blockchain

businesses are mostly conducted online today. And cryptography is a way to verify truth in transactions and in online communication. Yeah, but the IPs, they don't trace back to like a bank account or a person, right? Well, they trace to a wallet, right? So if you know that a wallet is associated with a president or an individual, you know exactly what transactions are going in and out. But what if they're not associated? There's no one associated with the wallet or...

they choose to treat in secrecy. Like a lot of criminals do use cryptocurrency. Well, the criminals, I mean, the FBI has actually put out a report. It's not the best technology for covering and concealing crime because again, all of the transactions are connected. So forensic accounting can far

faster figure out where money has gone on a blockchain than it can in our opaque banking system with a bunch of shell companies and offshore bank accounts. I mean, literally the entire blockchain is available for any of us to download and we can see which transactions are going where. It's pseudonymous, so you don't see someone's name like a bank account. But if you know, if you're able to do your investigative forensic accounting and trace wallets and their activity, it's actually far more transparent.

And again, but the cryptography element of this and the implications when it comes to nation states and our activities online and with commerce globally, if we want America to stay strong when it comes to just entrepreneurship, commerce, innovation, then we need to advance to something that can be verified through cryptography. Cryptography is a very important, powerful technology. The military has been using it. Some people think that

the military or the agencies involving the government had something to do with the creation of Bitcoin. I personally don't, but it's an important technology that will be used at the individual level all the way up to the government level. So like the issues with possible emoluments, you're not as concerned about that?

the issues with things like nefarious activities. Yeah. Or just like having a, basically a wallet for the president that you can like drop money in there for foreign actors. You know, again, with Bitcoin, if there's a wallet, I would be able to see it. If someone could link that to the president, if he had a change, you can do the meme coin. You can do the meme coin. Exactly. So all of us can see exactly what transactions are going in and out. We don't know who it is though. We don't know who. Well,

right, but we wouldn't be able to see that if it was a Chase Bank account or a Bank of America bank account. But this allows you to actually see the flow and movement of money. Sometimes you do, I think, actually, right? With a bank account, usually there's an identification connected to the transaction. I mean, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't know which account is, you know, if, if,

I don't know if Trump banks at Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo, but if he has a Bitcoin wallet... But we know where he banks online with a Trump meme coin, basically. Exactly. The flow of money, if it involves a crypto blockchain, you can see it much more transparently. You'd be able to know where it's going in and out. This is, again, why the FBI has literally put out

I don't know, dozens of pages of reports saying that it's not used for illicit activities as much as people might think it is. This is one of our arguments against the anti-crypto army that was led by Elizabeth Warren. It's like if you look at the actual data, criminals are actually avoiding this in many ways because it's too transparent and it allows for people to do this type of forensic accounting and trace the money. And if you involve crypto exchanges, even international ones, like let's say Binance, Binance is actually heavily compliant with

with regulators and law enforcement agencies who come in and say, "Block this wallet, freeze it. Don't allow anyone to transact it." And they've been very OFAC compliant for better or for worse, whether you agree with that or not.

But yeah, blockchain is far more transparent than opaque banking in the traditional world. And I don't think that we should prevent the flow and the spread of a technology that does so much good because a few bad people use it because bad people use all forms of technology. A surgeon can use a knife and a criminal can use a knife. Bad people use the internet. Amazing people use the internet. So it's a technology. It can be used for whatever the user wants to use it for.

It just needs probably regulation then. What did you make of DeepSeek and how it basically is threatening the entire AI industry? I'm a big proponent of open source technology. That's what Bitcoin is. That's purportedly what this new AI is. I think everything should be open source. I don't like the idea of not knowing what's behind the code and what they're programming something with.

So, in general, I'm just like a free market advocate. I think we need competition, we need open source technology, and we need to be able to compete on fairgrounds. And so, I'm not an AI expert, but I do think that anything open source is better than closed. Natalie, thanks so much for your time.

Thanks, Kevin, for joining the show as well. This was fascinating, especially for someone like me who hasn't really been following it that closely. But now that it has made its way into a political realm covering the Trump administration, I certainly want to learn more. So thanks so much for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm always here, super passionate about helping people understand because in 2017, I know what it was like to be very new and overwhelmed. So I'm here to help.

That was another episode of Somebody's Gotta Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. If you like this podcast, please subscribe, rate it, share it with your friends. If you like my reporting, please go to puck.news slash Tara Palmieri and sign up for my newsletter, the best and the brightest. You can use the discount code Tara20 for 20% off a subscription at Puck. That's uppercase T-A-R-A 20. See you again this week.