All Scrapes, No Jugular at the Walz-Vance VP Debate With Alex Thompson
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Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck's senior political correspondent, and this is Somebody's Gotta Win. It

It is the vice presidential debate. Woo-hoo, just wrapped up. I am in a room in the basement of CBS Broadcasting Center, 57th Street in Manhattan, with the very best Alex Thompson of Axios, super sourced in the Democratic circles around the Kamala Harris campaign. So we're going to chit-chat about how we think this went.

How this kind of non-event went. I'm thrilled to be here in the CBS basement with painted brick. It is, yeah. It's kind of weird. But I don't know, Alex, what's your major takeaway? I thought it was very civil and pleasant and didn't do damage or really...

harm to either side. To me, I mean, Tim Walz wasn't that great. He was obviously very shaky and mealy-mouthed. On stage, he seemed nervous. I think Meghan McCain said he looked like he's going to vomit. But what did they expect? He hasn't done any interviews. He's been governor of a small state. Before that, he was a congressman. They throw him up there and he hasn't even done like meet the press or maybe he's done meet the press once. But come on, he looked pretty scared, but he got into it. He got excited about some of the policy.

started to really own it he was warm but also cringy and jd vance who up until this point has been trump's pitbull really worked on his favorabilities he was he definitely softened himself probably realized that he pissed off a lot of women and other people um and he kind of leaned into the whole midwestern aw shucks thing too i thought it was going to be like some sort of i

I don't know, chilly, bake-off, kind of like aggressive Midwestern. I don't know what they do in the Midwest. It's because you're a flyover American. Yeah, exactly. It's like they were at a barbecue with each other instead. Just like arguing about politics at the barbecue. And, you know, you're going to get all the Minnesota partisans in your mentions for researching them as a small state.

as a result but i'd say two main takeaways one is to your point this is like a debate from the pre-trump era right where it was like like we have rules we have standards we're not gonna yell and we're gonna shake hands like people forget that basically the the handshake that kamala harris and donald trump had was the first handshake since the

first debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, because after the access Hollywood tape came out, they no longer shook hands. And then Biden and Trump never shook hands. So the fact that they were COVID ish because of COVID. And the second takeaway is I think basically what you're saying is that clearly the biggest surprise, at least to me was that Vance went from, uh,

you know, pit bull to poodle. Yeah. And that he was, went from, you know, the, the, the, the attacker and a hyper aggressive MAGA defender to, Oh, what a nice young man. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, like look at this, like Yale guy that like made good, this working class could then make good. So that clearly, you know, even like the pink tie, just like every, like, you know, campaigns do think about these things, everything about it. Breast cancer awareness. Is that what it was for? Yeah. Apparently that's what Katie Kirk said. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So I guess Tim Walls doesn't care about breast cancer. I thought it was Barbie pink, but whatever.

Sometimes things on TV are different, but even like the way he'd be like, you know, I agree with a bunch of what Tim Wall said, but not most of it, you know, but like he would sort of try to find commonality and then, and then would pivot. But yeah, it was a very like substantive, not many fireworks. And I think, uh,

You know, both, I mean, both candidates, like Tim Walz was playing not to make a mistake and JD Vance was playing to soften his image. And I think both achieved those aims. The only thing I would say is that Walz helped JD soften his image. Interesting. And I think in that sense, that was a fail. How did he do it? Because he didn't challenge him at all. Not until the end on January 6th.

When he was like, that is the most damning non-answer when asked about certifying the election in January 2020. But I think that's because Tim Walz knows that like JD is just like a better brawler, has more experience being a brawler. Oh, he didn't want to get in there. Yeah. He didn't want to like... I mean, because if you start getting in a brawl, like maybe he thought that more likely than... It's like, you know, you don't want to wrestle with a pig. Yeah. You know, because you'll get dirty. Yes. I think you're right. I think he knew that JD is just better at jousting. But he was a little gratuitous at...

I agree with you, man, on this. Or, you know, he really, he was a little too nice with JD. He could have shown, he could have been like this brat. You know what I mean? He could have at times been like, you know, you're just some slick guy talking about this and that. But, you know, I know more about family values. I mean, to your point, we...

how they were in the debate stage was very different than their public personas in the last few months. Now, you know, Tim Walz has been sort of in witness protection programs since he was picked for the ticket. But before then, you know, he was hyper aggressive and, you know, call, you know, calling JD Vance weird, like all these things. Like he was, he was very much like on his front foot. And, uh,

And then J.D.'s obviously continued, you know, like the questions about Tim Walz's claims, you know, and sometimes inflated about his National Guard service. Right. Like where J.D. said that he, like, you know, had basically been guilty of stolen valor. That didn't come up at all. Well, I heard that they were not going to bring that up, the stolen valor in advance. Just because, like, it's not that, like, J.D. was in combat. He was in the press office in Iraq. Yeah.

Well, in fairness, those people do get injured and they have died. Okay, fine. So they are in combat areas. Okay, I take that back. But that's not exactly, though, why. But I was told that they didn't want them to get in a tit-for-tat, at least from the Trump's team's point of view. They did not want J.D. to attack J.D.

walls too much because then it becomes a JD wall story. Tip for tat. They wanted him to very quickly defend Trump because Trump would be furious if he wasn't defended and then pivot to defining Kamala Harris, who has been largely undefined and they see that as their opportunity. So they were like,

defend Trump because he'll be pissed if you don't defend him and then quickly pivot to defining Kamala Harris and talking too much about Tim Walz is stolen valor or whatever other shortcomings and crazy stories he's made, you know, exaggerations, his folklores, I would say. I'm like a folksy guy who like gets a knucklehead and maybe I tell my stories a little crazy because it's fun. You know, it's just a waste of time because it's

They need to spend their time defining Kamala Harris, which Donald Trump failed to do in the last debate. I was told that, you know, J.D. was in a difficult position because of the fact that he knew that Trump wanted him to defend him. And they the team knows that, like, that's not really as important right now. Defending Donald Trump is less important than defining Kamala Harris. And that's why they let Trump truth the whole time. Interesting. Well, I think I also think you're right that both candidates understood and were clear that they were understudies.

that they were either about attacking the top of the other person on the ticket or they were defending their own, the person at the top of their own ticket. And that was made very clear. And so that's, you know, like even when, you know, Walls had that,

really bad answer. I don't think there's any other objective way to say it. Bad answer about not telling the truth about him being present in China during the Tiananmen Square. Like, you know, JD Vance didn't follow up. No. Didn't like get in his face. Also, he fell on his own sword. That's true. But like JD didn't, there weren't really any times. I mean, we've seen JD. He wasn't like really broke. You know what I mean? We've seen JD do this in interviews. Right. Like where he really sort of revels in like

mocking the person right or really trying to like skewer them but he's he's not supposed to realize that it's hurting his saber ability being the pitbull makes him look like a dick

Really? And if he's going to have any future in politics anyway, he can't be Donald Trump's little troll. Well, that's actually what surprised me tonight is because clearly they like Donald Trump and the Trump campaign has approved of him doing this this way for the last several weeks. And then this was the first time where I've seen him sort of lean back and not do the pit bull routine. Well, Trump did not like the childless cat lady stuff.

I know that sounds weird. Did anyone like the childless kind of lifestyle? No one did. He was like, why are we going out of our way to like piss off people that don't have families? I don't know why Trump probably... Trump's like from New York. He's like, nobody is... You know what I mean? He's not some family values...

He's got three wives. He's a playboy. He doesn't care. How dare you? He fundamentally probably doesn't understand any of the things that J.D. Vance is talking about when he's talking about family values. And he just probably thought it was like a stupid comment that would alienate people. And he doesn't want his running mate to alienate people.

That's not the point of having a running mate. Yeah, I mean, because Trump knows that if he... He can alienate people all he wants. If anyone's going to alienate people, it's going to be me. Exactly. You need to be likable. Right. But that's also at odds with his own instincts. Part of the reason he chose J.D. is because...

uh, he want, like if you wanted the most likable person, uh, like across America, you could have picked like Nikki Haley or Marco Ruby or like the least inoffensive person. Like JD, he picked because he liked the fact that he's a fighter, but then he's also upset with the fact that people are turned off. I don't know that he picked JD because he's a fighter. I think he picked JD based on my own reporting because basically it was Tucker versus

Rupert Murdoch. Rupert Murdoch is calling him saying, I want you to pick Glenn Youngkin or Marco Rubio. He's like, F you, Rupi. I'm going to go with the person that Tucker picks because it's like an F you to Rupert, right? To go with Tucker's guy. And in Trump's mind, he's like, why do I need a VP anyway? He's literally said out loud, I don't understand why I need a running mate. This is a guy who does not see the value in running mates. And so he was probably just like, I'll just pick this kid. Who cares?

I don't think he had a lot of thought in it and they thought it would help him in Pennsylvania. They made him a pitch. He was on the phone night after night talking to Tucker Carlson, who he still speaks to. Yeah. Night after night. It's like one of his top advisors. And it was like, Eric Trump, there were a lot of people, Charlie Kirk, all these young guys in the phone telling him. And really the only people advocating for Marco and Trump

Doug Burgum. I do also sort of wonder, you know, one Republican operative close to the Trump campaign put it to me this way. It was like, before the debate, it was Marco. After the debate, it was Burgum. After the assassination attempt, it was J.D. Oh, because they think they're winning and that's why they picked him? I think it was both. They thought they were winning. And you also had Tucker, who's expressed some of these dark views before about, like, deep states can assassinate Trump. Like, you need to have sort of a backstop of someone. Like, if you pick, like,

you know, a neocon shill. They're going to assassinate you right away. Right. Like I think, like, I don't know if he said that to Trump directly, but he's basically said the equivalent of that, which is weird because he's like talked about making Marco Rubio CIA director again, like it shows like Tucker's influential, but he had does have limited influence. And, but I do sort of wonder, I wonder if the assassination attempt. I mean, Don Jr. has influence too. Actually, Trump has, Trump at one point was unimpeded.

with his political skills to then jealous of his political skills and the attention he was getting in the polling. And now he takes him seriously and is impressed with him. Yeah. But I do sort of wonder if the assassination attempt doesn't happen in July. Is J.D. the pick? Probably, but...

Maybe not. Yeah, they were feeling good. I think he proved to them that he was the right pick tonight. I guess some people might say Nikki Haley may have been a better choice or... I mean, it all depends if you win one way or another. It did show his ability to just like execute a strategy, right? Even if it's somewhat at odds with like what people have seen before. And it was just really striking how he can just like read the playbook and just like do it like

it. Like he can be like he can be in like an asshole. He can also just be like the polite young man. And he can also hit all the points. Like it's amazing how quickly he can defend, pivot, inflation, immigration. When he was always able to your point about making it about the top of the ticket. And people pointed this out that Trump at the only in his closing statement, the last debate was able to bring up. Well, she's been vice president for three years. What is she waiting for? Every time he basically said it like

every other sentence was, she's been there. What is she waiting for? So he was able to sort of be a much more disciplined messenger on what the campaign wanted than Trump was. But that's always been the story with Trump. Yeah, the Republicans consider him their most effective communicator in the way the Democrats consider Pete Buttigieg one of their most effective communicators, right? And I think J.D. probably proved it tonight. And

it really highlighted how shitty Trump is at debating, honestly, and how shitty Trump is at articulating his own policies, right? He's really not that great at defending himself either. He's all bluster. And basically, J.D. did what

Trump was advised to do, which was to not get in the tit for tat and to remind everyone that she was the incumbent at every turn. And, you know, paint this dark vision of America saying that she created it. And the funny thing is, is that Trump, even now, still was like, I want him to defend me and essentially go into the rabbit hole that he went into, which would have ultimately caused J.D. to lose. You know who I was thinking about when I was listening to J.D.? I was like, this sounds a lot like Mike Pence.

Yeah. It was very similar to the Mike Pence strategy, both in 2016 and 2020. And Mike Pence is not an offensive guy. You could argue his policies are offensive, but like his tone is not offensive. And that seemed he was like Mike Pence's tone in J.D.'s body. I think we forget that Mike Pence was a shock jock.

No, he was just a radio jock. Like he was a... He was a shock jock, but he even said he was Rush Limbaugh in decaf, right? Oh, okay. That was his line. He was always sort of a subdued, like right-wing shock jock. But yes, he was a radio personality before he was ever in Congress. Okay, how did the Democrats feel about the debate? So Democrats I talked to, the first 30 minutes, they were...

pretty nervous because they did. It was, you know, one person was like reminiscent of like Mitt Romney in 2012, that first debate with Obama, where he came out and he was like moderate and sensible. And they were like, what's going on? And Walls was going in there. He sort of had like a constant frown.

and his eyes would get sort of wide and he seemed like a little bit defensive you know it definitely seemed that you there were the reports over the weekend he was nervous and some people and some people thought it was just like pre-debate spin of lowering expectations but no he looked nervous um and that's also part of the reason why you know the fact is when you do fewer interviews and fewer reps in front of like tough crowds then

You know, you raised stakes for moments when you were in the spotlight. But, you know, he seemed to get much more comfortable as the night went on. You know, besides the Tiananmen Square answer, which is any voter in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania going to care? I don't know. Like, did he have any huge missteps? No. It seemed like a survival strategy and it seemed like he survived. Yeah, he survived.

which is all he can really do. Some of the Democrats at the first half hour that were like, oh my God, this is terrible. Like JD seems likable. And they were like, they meant it with like incredulity. By the end, they were like, yeah, it ended up fine. Do you think he defended Kamala Harris enough? I think he defended Kamala Harris's policies.

uh fairly well uh i don't know if he defended her it's weird that jd like it really didn't hammer her that much for the flip-flopping i thought he would definitely go after her for the aclu form you know from 2019 and he really didn't go after it was all flesh wounds no no jugular you're right

flesh wounds. That's a good way of putting it. And he never really got anything from JD until the end, maybe a little bit of skin on the January 6th. Yeah. I think that when he said that is a very damning non-answer like that. I think it was Tim Walz's best moment of the debate. Oh, for sure. And, and JD didn't have a good answer. No. Uh,

you know, he basically was like, well, Trump said go peacefully. Yeah. And, you know, that's not really a good defense because Trump also waited three hours after it clear wasn't peaceful. But honestly, if he didn't stop it and change the tenor and tone by calling out the bullshit with that line, then,

JD may have gotten away with it. Yes. Because he's so slick. Yeah. You almost forget what he's saying. He's speaking so rapidly and smoothly and changing topics so quickly. Do you kind of feel that way with him? I mean, it's someone that constantly fills all my sentences with ums and likes and wells. I don't think that about you. Listen, I have to rewatch my clips. I know, like you can tell he is like, he clearly has just become incredibly media trained. Yeah.

through both practice and I'm sure even privately too. He's the MAGA salesman now. Right. He's like the car salesman for MAGA. Yeah. But now he's a little more likable. It's interesting because he went from like the MAGA attack, like, you know, I feel we're going to say attack dog five times in this podcast. We went from MAGA attack dog to MAGA salesman. And it's like a different, it's a different tact. It's a little smooth, a little slick. And really Tim Walz didn't come out on it.

at all no about like oh smart you smart ass from Yale you know you didn't do any of that that was the other thing is like I really expected because it seemed they had like real deep personal dislike for each other and that did not come through at all on the stage no at the end it was like

somebody to separate these guys? Yeah. Their wives were like shaking hands. I was like, hmm, like, I guess maybe like either it was like the Midwest manners coming through, like, well, we have to shake hands or maybe like, it's all just like political rhetoric bullshit and they don't actually dislike each other that much. I can't tell. They might actually run together when JD becomes a Democrat in 2028. Yeah.

That guy can surely be a chameleon, so. Yeah, I mean, you go from saying Trump's cultural heroine to Trump's cultural heroine.

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or a last-minute gift for mom's birthday. There's always a Sephora near you. Just pop in. Use our store locator to find your local Sephora or Sephora at Kohl's. Who do you think won? I think JD did himself more. I guess, like, there's two questions. JD did himself more favors, and he definitely gave, like, a nicer, kinder...

to MAGA, which he clearly wanted to come in here. Which is what you need to win over suburban voters. Yes, that was clearly his target. And rural voters in the Midwest, in the blue wall, basically. Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. That was clearly his target. I think he did a better, like probably a better job at executing that strategy than Tim Walz in terms of, Tim Walz's strategy was like, just get out of here. He may have even won over a few women on the fence. No.

Maybe I'm also skeptical. So like, did he win the debate? Yes. I'm skeptical that any voter made up their mind tonight. Did they all watch the full vice presidential debate until the end of the night? Because it was long. They went over. Right. And like, you know, it's very rare when people are like, we just want to keep going. Yeah, let's just keep going. We know people want 15 more minutes. Yeah.

Of Vance Walls. So, you know, I think, I don't think voters will be swayed. My conservative mom's review was that she didn't like Vance before, but now she's very excited. So, I don't know. Apparently the nice young man thing worked on her. Okay. You know, maybe.

Maybe there's some conservative woman out there. She's a conservative suburban mom. And maybe they've done their job if she actually goes out and votes. Yeah. But she's in California, right? Yeah, so it won't matter. But is she one of those districts where it will matter, that will define the house? Maybe. I have to honestly have not looked at the lines in California in a while. My mom's in North Carolina. Oh, so she matters. She does matter. And she has not made up her mind.

Interesting. Yeah. I talk about this a lot on the show. So if everyone is tired of hearing about it, she does ask, what's it going to be like with Kamala Harris? And she's like a Obama Trump Biden voter. So she wants to know. And I was like, mom, I guess it's going to be more Biden administration, right? Is it going to really be radically different? No. Yeah.

No. And I think like Kamala Harris is going to, if she does win, she's going to shake up definitely some of the personnel. You're going to exchange some of the people, but you have to remember like when a presidential administration comes in, they have a few thousand people that they appoint at the very, very beginning. Kamala Harris isn't going to fire most of those people. No. And she's not going to do like this rapid change. Like she's going to, she's going to shuffle the top.

But even then, I don't think it's going to be this massive overhaul that some people are speaking. It's going to be Bidenism, but with some different faces and probably much harsher on the border. And actually, the economy is doing well, so she'll ride the wave of that.

And I don't know that she'll be able to pass some like grand legislative packages like Biden did because the Senate's probably gonna be Republican. It'd be very, it's almost certain that Republicans will have the Senate. It's possible that Democrats will run the table. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, basically a first year of a Kamala Harris presidency, there's going to be three things that are going to be top of mind. You're going to have immigration, the border, which has already indicated she'll compromise on that. The taxes, uh,

There's going to be a tax package because the Trump taxes are going to expire and then foreign policy because there are multiple hot wars. And so that's going to be the focus. OK, so who needs to do another debate? Obviously, Kamala Harris. Right. I don't think that Tim Walls filled in the holes for voters tonight. I will say that.

I mean, this is like the key question for Kamala Harris, because voters say that they want to know more about her. But are voters just saying that and they'll still vote for her because they don't like Trump? The Kamala Harris strategy so far has basically been to like voters don't need to know anything about us. They just need to know that it's us or Trump. Yeah, but that's contrarianism.

contingent on the idea that everyone hates Trump. Again, it's a bet. It's a risk. And the thing is that they would prefer, obviously, to make their moments during debates because she is much more comfortable in those settings than she is during interviews. Why? How can you be better in a debate than in an interview? I think it actually does go to sort of the prosecutorial, whatever nature of hers. Because if you go back and you rewatch the first Trump debate... Because you can't prosecute the interviewer. Yes. She's much more comfortable...

attack, if you go back, she doesn't actually really talk about herself that much in that first debate. She's very effective at attacking Trump. She's not as effective at talking about herself and her own record. And I think, so the thing is like by Trump not doing another debate, he is depriving her of oxygen. Right. And it is like a risk to say, and this is also part of the reason my comment doesn't want another debate is because it does allow voters to get to know her a little bit more, maybe get more comfortable with her, but also, uh,

It's in a format that, and so maybe by the fact that Trump is not doing another debate, it's going to, you know, force her. If her team is not confident that she's going to win, maybe it'll force them to put her in more risky settings. We already know she's going to do a 60 Minutes interview. Right. But do they have to do more than just a 60 Minutes interview? We don't know. Interesting. The problem is they should have been doing the 60 Minutes interview earlier.

A month ago. And how much do voters care about this narrative of like, oh, we don't know anything about her, but like, clearly like reporters sense... I don't think it's the narrative that they don't know anything about her. It's that they don't really like... She's not in their houses with them. That's true. They don't know what it's like to be... Because really...

the presidency is basically like Kamala vision or Trump vision. That's interesting. My putting, you know, there are the people like when you turn the TV on, who is the person that is going to communicate the future of the country, the state of the country emergencies, like for the most part, you don't really want to deal and think about your president ever. Right. But they are there and she's got to present.

Leadership, competency, a vision, answers, you know, all of it. And likability too a bit, right? I think that if she was in their living rooms a little bit more, they could imagine her as the president a little bit more. And not just in like Beyonce settings, as Bakari Sellers calls it, you know, on the stage with like balloons coming down or, you know what I'm saying? Or Meghan Trainor dancing and crowds everywhere. But maybe like sitting down on the Today Show

you know, doing these soft interviews, but also some hard ones and just being blitzing, being everywhere. I mean, this is the most surprising thing when I sort of went through all the interview lists because, you know, the, the Harris campaign will tell you, well, we're just meeting voters where they are and they're not always that mainstream media. Well, like fair enough, but like, she's actually not doing even that many interviews with like friendly podcast hosts. Like she's doing a few here and there. She did an MBA one. She's done like a, you know, a favorable, uh,

aimed at Latino voters, but it's been very few. So she's not even doing just like the, she's not even blitzing friendly progressive media. Right. She's only doing a few here and there. If they want to talk to black men, shouldn't she be on like Charlemagne the God or that didn't go so well when she did that once, right? I think it's a complicated relationship. Okay, I got it.

If you go back to YouTube, there was a funny moment where Simone Sanders like interrupted the interview. Oh, I forgot about this. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what the fuck do I know about that? I should not be advising on press, but also like for someone like my mom who listens to NPR, has she done an interview with NPR yet? No. Yeah. Yeah.

Why isn't she doing that? Or why isn't she doing... I do think it is what we're saying. It's clearly a strategic decision. My mom watches morning shows. Why isn't she doing a morning show? It's clearly a strategic decision. To your point, like, and it could be the wrong one, but they are basically making it bad that...

In a competition between Trump versus like, you know, generic Democrat. They're making her generic Democrat. Right. And that she can win that race. That makes me think they don't think she's more talented than generic Democrat. Well, there are definitely some people close to her that are frustrated by this, that think that she is like talented enough to do these things and that her staff is holding her back.

It's for staff like former Obama people like David Clough slash... I mean, they don't name names about who's holding your back, but the staff is sort of a Frankenstein campaign of like former Biden people that she doesn't totally trust, her family, some Obama people, and then some other people that are sort of like...

in the middle of all this. Longtime friends and advisors. Yeah, and like longtime, just like democratic operatives who somehow make their way into every campaign somehow. Yeah, they have their ways. Yes. Well, we shall see. I mean, it's a little late right now. I don't think just doing local news either is going to cut it. There's only done one local TV interview. Yeah.

Town halls? Why aren't they doing more town halls? We mean more. They haven't done any. Oh, right. But they're planning to do one at least, right? With CNN? I think it's with Univision. Oh, got it. Yeah, Univision. And so is Trump. He's doing one too, right? Yeah, they're both doing it. I think it's next week. Yeah. Or two weeks from now. Good questions, right?

You only have a month left. You should be selling, selling, selling, right? Sell, sell, sell. We'll see. I mean, I think, I think Harris's campaign is very happy. She wants to be a Birkin bag. You know, you have to line up, you got to put your name in for it. What they've told me is they are happy to let Trump be front and center. The problem is, is he's not really anymore. Um,

Well, today's events, foreign policy notwithstanding, he still, I think, is the main character of this election, right? He clearly has not turned off people that much. Maybe. I mean, again, they're saying like...

I think they're all saying it's going to be close. And like the Harris, and again, it could be the wrong strategy. I just don't know. But they've clearly basically decided that we don't want to be out front. And part of that is because she is not great in interview settings, but they want to make this like a referendum on Trump. And like, they think, yeah,

you know, sort of hunkering down is a better strategy. They have a better ground game than the Republicans, that's for sure. And that if it's, I mean, Kellyanne Conway seems to think this is all about getting your voters out. It's a ground game. Yeah, that's true. And Trump's team has outsourced it to Elon Musk, who has hired DeSantis' people, who did the Build Back Better disaster. Well, maybe it will help them in Iowa. Yeah.

because that's the only place to be just really organized. It cost them $6,700 a vote in Iowa and they still lost by 30 points. I mean, arguably he would have lost by more if they had not spent that much money. Oh my God. You should read my reporting for more on the ground game. Honestly, I've got a lot of good stuff on it. Everyone should listen to your interview with Jeff Rowe, which I thought was really interesting about that. My latest reporting is actually pretty fun. I was inside Trump's mind and he's,

He's still asking people as of last week whether he should debate again. Nothing's ever final with Donald Trump. No, no, no. And he's still pissed at David Muir. He said that he wants to sue David Muir. Then Trump denied that he wanted to sue David Muir, calling me out by name on Truth Social and said, Tara Palmieri, fake news, said, I want to sue David Muir. I don't, but I should. So it was just an opportunity for him to say that he wants to sue David Muir. He doesn't have enough time to...

Too much winning, I think is what he said. Too much winning. Yeah, something along those lines. Yeah, yeah. Too much winning. Yeah, very Trump. That's what I often say too. Yeah, exactly. So he's still thinking about it. He's obsessing over the Olivia Nuzzi scandal. Called up RFK.

uh, himself. What reporter isn't? Yeah. Trump, the guy who's running for president. Well, but Olivia Netsy is like sat down with him for a lot of several, several times. There's like a weird, they, they've sat, they've like, yeah, she did look into his ear for the New York, uh, magazine cover story earlier this month. He, uh,

speaks highly of Mark Robinson, the lieutenant governor of North Carolina, although he admits he will never be seen with him again. He will not comment on him and he thinks he can still win North Carolina, uh, split ticket voters. So to his, so to his pollster told me that too. I mean, it's weird in that Trump is in many ways, Trump is actually outperforming Democrats are, are outperforming Harris and Trump is, uh,

in a lot of these statewide races. And then also Trump is outperforming the Republicans. Trump's going to probably outperform Mark Robinson. He's probably going to outperform Carrie Lake, um, uh, Sam Brown. Almost all the Senate candidates, honestly. Like he definitely outperformed Bernie, yeah, Bernie Moreno in Ohio, uh, Tim Shahi in Montana. Like there's this, and so you can understand why he's, he thinks he'll probably outperform Ted Cruz in Texas. It's going to have to be 15 points though with Mark Robinson. It's a lot of points, but.

I think right now they have Trump up two points and like, I think that's a real clear politics average in North Carolina at this point. So it's close. Yeah. I mean, Democrats have, I mean, you can tell the, you can see it where from the money they're spending and that like Trump spent basically $0. I'm correct. I'm

this yeah until now he spent zero dollars in north carolina the entire election even as the biden campaign was spending like 10 over 10 million dollars in north carolina and then once com like came to the top ticket the demographic shifted and they are more worried about he literally went to north carolina as soon as she was announced yes absolutely and so like they are worried because they know if if she wins north carolina this becomes much more difficult

Like Pennsylvania also becomes less important because you're talking about 19 electoral votes in Pennsylvania, 16 in North Carolina. So they're almost comparable. Now, Trump has the edge. It doesn't... Like in Democrats, I can tell you in 2020, the Biden campaign thought they were going to get North Carolina. Thought, thought, thought until the very, very end. And they just saw it slip away. Right. And then they went all in on Georgia instead. But like that was a very abrupt shift the last two weeks of the campaign. Interesting. What else did I write about? Oh, so I've been...

detailing how Corey Lewandowski was doing a forensic audit of the campaign. And that was his way of trying to take over from the existing campaign managers, Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita, who were running a very tight ship. And by like Trump campaign measures, it's been running a lot better. Well, Corey seems to have lost the battle about two weeks ago on a flight over California. Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita said,

marched over to Trump with Corey and we're basically like, it's us or him. We can't do all this anymore. He's causing chaos. He's calling regional directors. He's sitting down staff. He's poking around into things like direct mailing and we just can't deal with it anymore. And so, uh, Corey did not fly home with them. And, uh,

And has since been told by Trump that he's to be a surrogate and sick to being a surrogate. And he's been on the plane with Trump since. But being deplaned is like being put in a corner in Trump world. Yeah. I mean, even Laura Loomer didn't get deplaned until until a lot worse. Until she ended up on Drudge. But she's probably still in the mix, too. So, yeah, that was my latest. But you should check it out because there's a lot more in there. It's at puck.news slash Tara Palmieri.

Any last thoughts on the debate? One thing I just wanted to add to what you're saying is that this is the most, like Trump arguably is as erratic or even more erratic than he's ever been. But this also is the most professional campaign.

Like he is not on message. Like he rarely, he often goes off. But if you watch the ads, and unfortunately I've watched every single ad of this campaign, the ads are incredibly focused. The messaging is the exact same on Harris the entire time. It's dangerously liberal, dangerously liberal. That is like the message in the paid advertising. It's been very, very consistent. They've also been saying she's going to make America California. Yeah.

Yes. Like San Francisco. Yeah. Like the other things about it, like San Francisco, San Francisco, San Francisco, San Francisco, uh, like, you know, weak, weak, dangerous liberal. Right. They have some new ad already out on the Iran, um, Israel fight, basically saying, blaming her for all of it just came out. Uh, I missed that one. Uh, but it's a digital ad 30 seconds. Yeah. And they, you know, the, the fact is that,

If you're Kamala Harris, the one thing you're worried about, I think, is that anything that happens in the world the next month, most of it is downside for you. Unless there is like some sort of peace deal breakthrough with Ukraine and Russia or with Israel, like anything devolving, any sort of chaotic event adds to Trump's narrative, which is the world is out of control. You need peace.

strength to get it back under control. That is his narrative. That was actually like one of J.D. Vance's stronger points, actually, in the debate. At the very beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When he was saying, like, I've been for the past 20 years, the only four years when we haven't been in the middle of a foreign entanglement or during Donald Trump or or flare up, I think. Yeah. Because we were in Iraq. We were Afghanistan. So.

And we saw troops all throughout the Middle East during that. Right, exactly. But yes, like he, his point was he didn't, he also didn't start any new wars and like the, you know, Russia didn't invade during that time. There wasn't an incursion, I guess is what he was trying to say. Yeah. No, honestly, some like, you know, Democrats argue, well, like,

Like all that would have happened, like everything would have happened if you'd won a second term. And Trump's like, well, no, I get all the credit, you know, like, you know, being president, there are elements of luck that timing that that come with it. I mean, Obama inherited the collapse, the financial crisis. Yeah.

Biden had to become the president after COVID and inherited the, you know, crazy inflationary situation based on free money. And Trump was president when in once in a generation pandemic. Yeah, maybe he would have been reelected if not for the pandemic. I think a lot. I know a lot of Democrats think so. Interesting. All right. Always great having you on the show. Always great to be on. That was another episode of Somebody's Got to Win. I'm your host, Tara Palmieri. I want to thank my producers, Christopher Sutton and Connor Nevins. If you like this show, please rate it.

I'll be back again on Thursday.