The rebel commander running Syria
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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, I'm Lucy Hockings. From the BBC World Service, this is The Global Story. Today, the rebel leader who's now running Syria. In just a matter of weeks, Ahmed al-Shara has gone from leading a rebel faction in control of a single Syrian province to being the country's de facto leader.

He arrived on our screens clad in military fatigues as his rebel forces swept across Syria. And now the world is scrambling to understand who he is and what he might do next. Foreign governments say they're relieved a dictator has been toppled. But how concerned should they be that his successor spent years as a jihadi? There are basic principles for the revolution.

A revolution is not meant for revenge. It should not be vengeful. The BBC's international editor Jeremy Bowen sat down with Ahmad Alshara at the presidential palace in Damascus this week for an interview with big questions to answer. Is he really a reformed radical? Will he respect the rights of women? And even if these are his intentions, is he the man who can make it happen?

Do a clap when you're running all the cameras. There you are, sitting down to start this interview with Ahmed Alshara. Can we start? Are we recording? You met him, Jeremy, in the Presidential Palace, a place where you've been before because you've interviewed Bashar al-Assad there a few times too. It must have been quite surreal to be there again. A little bit, yeah, it was a bit. The Assad interviews were done at a sort of...

guest palace in the grounds, but it's the same idea. You had to go into this monumental building, which is on a crag above Damascus. You can see it from all over the city. And I mean, I interviewed Bashar al-Assad three times in total. So to be in that palace where I'd met Assad and his people was a real sign that, you know, the earth has moved here.

So you expected it was fast, Assad would go. And you had some time with Ahmad al-Sharra. We see these pictures of you walking down the corridor and things. You're talking to him. How did you find him as a person? To be honest, I thought he was quite an impressive person. He has a certain degree of low-key charisma, which I can imagine his followers might like. He's clearly very intelligent.

And he is, I'd say, astute, intelligent. You can see in his eyes that he sort of gets it. And yet that might be surprising to people because we've been hearing over the past weeks about his background and the time he spent with jihadist groups that are infamous in many parts of the world.

So what is his backstory? He has got this long record as someone who has been on the hard jihadist, Islamist, extremist, Salafist side of politics and belief and bloodletting, actually. Going back a long time, he fought in Iraq against the Americans for al-Qaeda as a young man. He's still only in his early 40s.

So we're talking about 20 years ago. He was sent into Syria. He's from Syria by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who was the leader of the organization that became morphed in the end into Islamic State. And just how radical was he, Jeremy? Well, he was working for, fighting with a commander in Iraq.

the most notorious jihadi groups. The thing about Sharaa is he broke with Baghdadi. Then he was with an al-Qaeda affiliate here in Syria. He broke with them. And since 2016, it's pretty clear that he has broken with those organizations. And he's been running the province of Idlib. But the big question a lot of Syrians' minds is,

is while he says a lot of the things about tolerance and respecting other people's beliefs who aren't like him, very devout Sunni Muslims,

they don't really believe him because of his past. And his group, as you mentioned, have been effectively running Idlib since 2017. What do those years tell us, Jeremy, about his leadership and maybe his intentions? Well, I have spoken to people who have been running very large Western-based NGOs, non-governmental organisations involving in aid,

who have said to me that their staff tell them the way that they ran Idlib was efficient, it was increasingly professional, they knew what they wanted, they were good at getting it. I personally, I've been to...

most places in Syria, but I haven't since before the war been to Italy. But I'm told they've had a bit of development there. There's been money invested. They have close links with the Turks. I believe they're using Turkish currency, in fact. And there have been people who have built shopping malls. In no sense are they Democrats. It is very much his rule and the rule of his group. And they have used some

very, I mean, he denied it, but he said they just used the law. But there are plenty of reports that they have used some, you know, quite big violence against those who have criticized, have criticized them against demonstrations and so on. So they, you know, there's an iron fist there as well as what appears to be quite an efficient organization. They also built up their military side and

created the equivalent of a staff college for officers, learnt from manuals available publicly about the way the Western armies fought. Apparently, they followed some of the British models and they got themselves ready. So when I was walking up the red carpet in the palace with Shara, I said to him, well, were you surprised that the regime crumbled so quickly? He said, no, no, I wasn't surprised because to start with, I could see they were weak and

And this was part of the plan. I think what he meant by that was that they could see the moment had come because Assad's allies, the Russians, the Iranians and Hezbollah from Afghanistan,

And so that brings us on to this dramatic few weeks we've just seen in Syria. Because while former President Assad was asking for help from Iran and Russia, I

Ahmed al-Shara was emerging onto the world stage and what a transformation we've seen him go through. So there he was leading this group of rebels as they rapidly took over the country and within a few weeks, Jeremy, there they are in Damascus. And he was out in front in his military fatigues in charge of these rebels. But when you sat down with him at the presidential palace, he's there in a suit.

What is behind this transformation of Aparna Dalshara and also the fact that he changed his name? Quite a lot of military leaders and politicians as well, actually from different perspectives here, political and religious perspectives in this part of the world, tend to take on some kind of a pseudonym. In his case, it was Aparna.

what they call in French a nom de guerre, a name of war, where he called himself Jolani.

That's because his family comes from the Jolan, known in English-speaking circles as the Golan, which is the territory, the plateau in southern Syria, very strategic, which the Israelis captured in 1967. And not only have they never given it back, they've occupied it and annexed it. And Donald Trump, alone among his Western allies, recognized it as Israeli territory during his first term in the White House. So,

You know, he and his family are from that part of Syria. So it was symbolic, therefore, for him to take off his uniform. When I spoke to him, he wasn't wearing a tie. He had a rather nice shirt, looked quite expensive, a jacket and trousers, and...

Very nice pair of, I suppose, what you might call half brogues or something like that that he was wearing that look brand new. So he's well-dressed. And I think the shedding of the uniform, the shedding of the name, the nom de guerre, is a significant signal that things have changed. And he is now in a different place, different job. They've knocked out the regime.

and therefore they are able to do something different. And I think they're dealing in symbolism. That's why we were speaking in the presidential palace. So this is a man presenting himself as a leader, and like you said, requesting to meet you, Jeremy, in the presidential palace. My first question, we're meeting in Assad's old palace. Does that mean that you are going to be the new president? The Syrian presidential topic...

I think it's too early to talk about the new Syrian president. First, Syria should go through at least three stages. The first is taking over the government, which happened during the last weeks. Secondly, there should be an invitation to a national conference that brings together all Syrians.

It's through this national conference that Syrians can vote on crucial issues such as terminating the constitution, dissolving the parliament and forming a consultative council. This will fill the constitutional and parliamentary vacuum during the interim period until the country is ready to hold elections.

So you're talking about elections. Does that mean to say you would like this country to become a democracy? People have the right to choose who will rule them. And people have the right to choose who represents them in the People's Assembly and the House of Representatives. You've made a lot of promises. You've said that you'll respect the...

mosaic of different sectarian groups here in Syria, minorities as well. Are you going to keep those promises? The Syrian population has lived together for thousands of years. We're going to discuss all of it. We're going to have dialogue and make sure everyone is represented. The old regime always played on sectarian divisions, but we won't.

We were welcomed in all the big cities by all the sects. I think the revolution can contain everybody. So this isn't going to be some kind of a caliphate or you're not going to make Syria into a country like Afghanistan because you know that there are people who say that maybe you want to behave like the Taliban. There are many differences between Syria and the Taliban.

The way we govern is different. Afghanistan is a tribal community. Syria is completely different. The people just don't think in the same way. The Syrian government and the ruling system will be in line with Syria's history and culture. Jeremy, we're talking about the leadership of Syria moving forward, and he talks about the Syrian government and the ruling system. Is that him? Is that HTS? Is that who is running the country now?

Well, yeah, he's the de facto ruler of Syria. In Idlib, when, as Jolani, he was up there running the place, they established something called the Salvation Government. And they basically exported it from Idlib and brought it down here. So the appointments that they have announced, including an interim prime minister, have come from that background. So they are the people who, for the time being, for three months,

are in an interim government making decisions. Now, what happens after that is really quite important, I think, because by

By three months from now, we'll have a much clearer idea about the way they want to govern, the kind of Syria they envisage. And Jeremy, what did you make of the feasibility of that promise that he gave to you that everyone is going to be represented? And how is he going to do that? How is he going to unite all these groups? And does he even have the backing of them all? Well, I think it's really, really difficult. Really difficult. Let's take him literally at his word that he actually wants to do it.

What might be standing in the way of that? Well, sadly, a myriad of different things. First of all, under Assad, Syria effectively lost its sovereignty. I mean, Assad was a client of Iran and Russia. There are Turks in the northwest, Turkish troops, and they also support a militia up there. The Kurds have a sort of autonomy in the northeast, protected by the Americans.

There are very independent-minded militias and tribes south of Damascus going towards the Jordanian border. There are the remnants of Islamic State in the eastern desert, which the Americans have been bombing. There are the Israelis who have moved out of the Golan Heights, already occupied. They've taken more Syrian territory. They've bombed

what were the bases of the Syrian army and their weapons stores causing enormous amounts of damage. I think more than 500 airstrikes or something like that they're on at the moment. And their tanks have been, you know, without any opposition, have been driving around the countryside in southern Syria at times, I think, coming reportedly about 30 kilometers even from Damascus.

So, you know, he's got a country here where there are lots of other players. And I think that is part of the problem that a lot of Syrians have said to me, just leave us alone, please. We can try and sort this out for ourselves. Because Syria is such an important place strategically, I'm not sure they're going to be allowed to do that. There's another factor.

is that HTS is not the only armed group. There are lots of other armed groups, and some of them are against HTS, including violent jihadist groups, some of which operate under the Islamic State brand, if you like. And our colleagues at the...

BBC has a really brilliant unit in BBC monitoring that monitors social media that a lot of the jihadi groups communicate through. And reportedly, they're saying that on some of the channels associated with the hardline jihadi groups, Islamic State and so on, there are people talking about attacks which could really mess things up for HDS big time.

in terms of destabilization. Plus, there's another thing.

People are really angry about what the regime did, and they want to get justice, and justice morphs very quickly into revenge. And if that somehow got out of control, if they couldn't satisfy the people they were doing enough themselves, perhaps with some high-profile trials, then people might take things into their own hands. That, too, is destabilizing. There are loads of things which are potentially divisive and destabilizing in a country that is already fragmented after so many years, first of all, of war and then of dictatorship.

And you asked him, Jeremy, about that question of justice, because it's a justice that some people in Syria are desperate for. There are many Syrians who said to me, for example, when I went to Sednaya prison, and I spoke to families of people who had disappeared into that prison, probably been killed,

And many of those Syrians say they can't face the future until they get justice from the Assad regime. One man said to me, "I need to see Assad's people hanging in public, dead." How are you going to satisfy people who feel that they really deserve justice after 54 years of the crimes of the Assad regime?

There are basic principles for the revolution. Revolution is not meant for revenge. It should not be vengeful. There is a group of people who committed these crimes in Sednaya prison, chemical attacks and the massacres committed in Houla and Bani Yes. We are trying to get the names of those people and pursue them through the justice ministry and the public prosecution.

So those are some of the challenges facing Alshara. Next, what did he have to say when Jeremy asked him about women's rights and whether the world needs to give him a chance to deliver on his promises? You're listening to The Global Story from the BBC World Service. There's a fresh episode available each weekday. Just search for The Global Story wherever you get your podcasts. I'm talking to the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen.

So Jeremy, one of the questions many people have had since the fall of the Assad regime is what it means for women. And that was a point I know you really pressed him on. So the culture of Syria includes rights for women, it includes education for women, it includes tolerance for people drinking alcohol. Is that all acceptable to you?

When it comes to women's education, of course. We've had universities in Idlib for more than eight years. I think the percentage of women in universities is more than 60%. You know that there are secular women in this country who are concerned that they might have to wear hijab, they might have to wear headscarves and cover themselves. Do you think that will become necessary as far as you're concerned?

Syria's problems are much bigger than the issues you are talking about. The Syrian problem is that half the population was kicked out of Syria and forcibly displaced from their houses. They were targeted with barrel bombs and unguided bombs. Many Syrians drowned while trying to escape to Europe. There are other, far more important issues than the ones we are talking about here.

Yeah, I agree that there are massive issues to discuss and I'm only asking this question because as you know there's been a controversy on social media when the woman covered her head when she was having a photo with you and liberal-minded Syrians said this is a sign of oppression.

and very conservative religious Syrians, some of them, said, "Why is he even having his photo taken with a woman he's not married to?" So it's controversial, isn't it? I mean, it's a controversial issue. I did not force her to cover her head. However, this is my personal freedom. I want photos taken for me the way that suits me.

This is different than having a law that governs all the country. However, in general, there is a culture in this country that should be taken into consideration in the law. This matter is decided upon by the legal experts. And Jeremy, are Syrian women that you're speaking to reassured by some of Al-Shara's words about their rights? No, not really. I mean, I've been speaking to, you know, mostly educated, middle class, rather secular women.

women here in Damascus, you know, who are a bit concerned. I mean, he does say that education will continue. One of the women I was speaking to said, yes, well, they may well have universities where women are allowed in Italy, but they have to wear hijab to go there. I

I mean, the thing you have to remember about Syria is that it's quite a diverse country. There are lots of women here who are religious, who do wear hijab. You go to the market, there are stalls and stalls where they have lots of mannequin heads which have modeled different kinds of headscarf. You know, you have to remember that this is actually among not just Sunnis, among all religious groups, this is a religious place.

On the international stage, the question and the big concern is that this group has its roots in jihadism. So this perhaps reflects a concern held by Syrians, as you put it to him. You must know that many Syrians have their doubts, that they don't believe that your group has changed. They know where you come from, that originally you were associated with al-Qaeda, and further back you yourself were associated with the group that became Islamic State.

So they look at your history and they say, well, how can we believe this guy? There were some subjective conditions, as you know. There was a big war happening in Iraq. All Arab and Islamic people were sympathetic to the situation there. We went to defend the people of Iraq, regardless of who was fighting there.

then we found ourselves with this group. It was al-Qaeda back then. I did not witness any of the sectarian battles they fought in Iraq. I was in prison at the time when al-Qaeda deviated from its path. When I returned to Syria, we severed all ties with any foreign group, including al-Qaeda. Fighting alongside al-Qaeda is a matter of the past. It's absolutely part of the past. You are not

going to make this country into some kind of Islamist dictatorship? I said earlier that the law will govern this country and it's the law that will protect everyone and preserves everyone's rights. God willing,

We are not about to change people's way of life in the country. We are not concerned about changing the demographic structure of the country. I myself should not be able to say that I want Syria to be a certain way. This is illogical. I will leave this whole issue to specialized committees chosen by the people to decide on the country's next laws. Let's talk about wider issues that you face. First of all, this country is broken.

there is massive amount of destruction, the economy is destroyed, there are huge debts. How do you begin to start dealing with all of that when the country's under sanctions?

and when major powers around the world and the United Nations say that you are the leader of a terrorist group? That's a political classification. We haven't committed any crimes that justify calling us a terrorist group. In the last 14 years, we haven't targeted any civilians or civilian areas or civilian targets. I understand some countries will be worried by that designation.

But it's not true. Now, after all that has happened, sanctions must be lifted because they were targeted at the old regime. The victim and the oppressor should not be treated in the same way.

Is it true that he can really claim to have never been part of a group that targeted civilians? You know, how do you define civilians? I mean, were there people who they might have targeted who were associated with the military? I mean, I don't know that myself. I wasn't with them. I couldn't see what they were doing. There is an undeniable fact, though, that of the hundreds of thousands of civilians who were killed in the course of the war,

the absolute vast majority were killed by forces fighting for the regime. So when he says that sanctions have to be lifted because they targeted the old regime, the victim and the oppressor should not be treated in the same way. Are HTS really the victims in Syria? Well, I think the Syrian people are often the victims. The thing about sanctions is they're a blunt instrument and the purpose of sanctions was to isolate and punish the regime.

And quite a lot of them have actually got names attached to them of people who some of them are now dead, of course. So they were aimed at the regime. I mean, I think that is a fair point. I think one thing that is interesting is that in the years that he was running Idlib, Shara operated openly. He'd go about the place. He was visible everywhere.

But he was still leading a group which is classified as a terrorist organization by the Americans and others. And one thing the Americans do to leaders of groups they regard as threats and terrorist groups in the Middle East is they quite often assassinate them with drones. And they never went after him. You know, he is perhaps optimistic to think there is a chance of getting this status back.

reversed, not least as well, states aren't charities. They don't do this for the good of their health. They do it for their own interest. So they're thinking it's in our interest to have some sort of relationship with them. So finally, Jeremy, what you've just alluded to there, I interviewed an American the other day who said Syria wasn't on anyone's bingo card. So they're really having to formulate a response quite quickly and a position.

After meeting him and interviewing him, were you left with an impression that this is a man that the world needs to give a chance to? Well, I think they have to follow it very closely. And they certainly need to, if he turns out not to be another despot, then yes, because why? What's happened in the last couple of weeks is just the most massive change

geostrategic change at the very heart of the Middle East. And people don't yet know what the consequences are going to be

But the absence of the Assads, having been here for more than 50 years, even though they were a very ugly regime, quite a lot of states, including Western states, were quite happy with the stability that they could deliver. And so now they're in the unknown because they don't know the way this man's going to go. They don't know who his friends are going to be.

And also there is a fear that it might all go wrong and Syria might degenerate again into a sort of kaleidoscope of mini states and warring parties and warlords. And for the region's stability, that kind of thing is not good. Jeremy, thank you. It's been lovely to have you on the pod. Nice to talk.

And thanks so much to you for listening. If you want to get in touch, email us at theglobalstory at bbc.com. Send us a message or voice note on WhatsApp. Our number is plus 44 330 123 9480. All of those details are also in our show notes. Wherever you're listening in the world, this has been The Global Story. Thanks for having us in your headphones. Goodbye.

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