Inside the Midnight Order - Ep. 2: "Let the Evidence Lead"
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Hey there, it's Debra Roberts. I hope you're following Inside the Midnight Order. It's a behind-the-scenes look at how a group of young women is tackling cold cases using forensic analysis and data skills. Here's Episode 2. This episode is brought to you by Shopify.

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Hey there, I'm ABC News correspondent Kena Whitworth. And I'm Nancy Schwartzman, the director and executive producer of Sasha Reid and The Midnight Order. From ABC Audio and Freeform, this is Inside the Midnight Order.

Nancy, in episode two, Dr. Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order continue investigating this Veronica and Archie case. Basically, they're trying to figure out whether Veronica's ex, who they call Archie, could be the man responsible for the deaths of several women.

They have this case totally laid out in front of them with a woman who absolutely believes that her husband is this serial killer. And they have all this information to work with. Nancy, ultimately, what was the conclusion that they came to there and why?

This is where they were sharpening their skills. This was their first real get out, hit the streets, meet families, meet law enforcement, go to the scenes of the crimes. The Midnight Order comes to the conclusion that Archie is not responsible for this string of murders, but I think it really emboldened them to jump into the Picton case.

This Veronica and Archie case was the Midnight Order's first official case together, but it's one that doesn't have, as you pointed out, the most satisfying conclusion for them. But ultimately, what does that case tell us about the investigative process and what should the listeners be taking away from that? What I love about the Midnight Order and their approach is compassion first, but let the evidence lead.

So really taking this seriously, listening to this woman, looking at her data, looking at the evidence she gathered, she had a lot of information. So they did it carefully. They were constantly checking their own biases.

Reminding themselves, this is one source. Let's go talk to law enforcement. Let's talk to the people who worked the case. See what they're still working on, what remains open-ended for them, what they can share. See if the hunches the midnight order has matches up with law enforcement. Going to location. Even if the case is 40 years cold...

Being there yourself, not Google mapping it, not just looking at a picture, going there yourself, measuring the distance. Donna Ocock, the apartment building where she was babysitting to the convenience store where she was last seen in distress, right? It's like a three minute walk.

To do that themselves, they really get a sense of the night of. And then to go visit where her body was found, it really paints a much clearer picture when you're on the ground. And I think their understanding of both the criminal mind and the experience of the victim was deepened by going to location. So that's law enforcement, discussion, go to location, meet victims' families and witnesses. That's irreplaceable.

I think, too, one thing that listeners will really learn here is that they approach these cases with a clean mind. They don't bring bias into the case. They approached it with facts first and facts only. I think that was a good scene setter for the midnight order because I would actually argue it proves their validity here as investigators. And it really showed that they were not willing to be influenced from anything on the outside.

which also doesn't take away from the motto compassion first but let the evidence lead and i think what's so unique about this group is that they can hold both right you can listen to victims and their families you can hold that empathy and really

hear Veronica's pain, understand family members and their pain, and not have it cloud their investigation. Absolutely. Lending that empathetic ear allowed them to learn more about each individual victim without the total focus always being on the suspect there. It almost turned into each case being its own case, which really it was. And I think that they really showed that beautifully by leading with empathy.

To learn more about how the Midnight Order investigated the Veronica and Archie case, I was lucky enough to get to speak with both Marina and Florence about exactly that point. That's coming up after the break. This episode is brought to you by Shopify.

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Marina and Florence, I'm so happy to get to speak with both of you. I'm really curious as to how you have become so invested so early on in your careers in the Midnight Order. Florence, I know that you are pursuing a PhD in criminology right now. Tell me about how you found the Midnight Order or did it find you?

I was a student in an intro to criminology class like six to seven years ago. And in that class, Sasha was a TA and I was very clear about my path of wanting to study atypical homicides. The instructor of my crim course had directed me to Sasha and told me that she was a serial killer expert. And a lot of the work that she did was similarly things that I was also passionate about. So I

I reached out to her. Eventually, I was recruited to help volunteer and collect data for her serial homicide database and her missing and murdered database. And since then, I've been involved with her work, which has now blossomed into the Midnight Order. Wow. So you were early on helping build this database that is now the largest database of missing and murdered women in existence. And Marina, you know, the second you said in this series, I live a double life,

I was locked in to your story. In the series, you're working at a grocery store. You're volunteering at the Victim Assistance Unit within the police department, but you're also working with the Midnight Order. And there's been a couple of changes since then. Tell me about that journey.

I always knew that I'm going to be working in law enforcement. From a very young age, I was still a child, basically watching CSI and all of those typical series. Back in 2019, I took a course with Sasha.

It was criminal personalities course and it was very unique. Later on, Sasha invited me to join Midnight Order. At that time, there was no name. It was just a group of people who were creating profiles for serial killers and I thought it was so fascinating.

When you had a double life, I used to work in the grocery store while I was still at school. Most of the people didn't even know what I was doing. I would just like come for a regular shift every time, do my job. Then on the weekends or in the evenings, I would just submerge myself in populating the serial homicide database. But now you're working with the police department. Yes. Congratulations to you, Marina. What's your role?

I'm a report integrity and compliance specialist. I'm basically helping officers with criminal reports, populating them, updating them, quality assurance, just making sure that they are living up to the standards. Sometimes officers are not in the best state of mind after going through a situation, crisis and whatnot. So we are basically there for their support.

Florence, I know you also have a background in linguistics and psychology. So how were you able to immediately apply that background and help the Midnight Order? Coming from like an interdisciplinary background gives me kind of a holistic lens of the things that I'm studying and helps you really critically think about the data that I'm looking at, recognizing there's different ways of understanding the world. And I guess in my case, understanding offenders is

Marina, it was really interesting watching you create a criminal profile. Tell me a little bit about your process. In terms of Archie, where the profile started, I would say, is Veronica sent us everything, whatever she collected about him, right? So we already had a lot of information about him, and she was suspecting that he was a psychopath.

But we wanted to put it in more like a chronological order, same as what we were doing with the Serial Homicide Database. You know, everything was related to his development, his environment where he grew up, movement, you know, across Canada and whatnot, socioeconomic status, what were his hobbies. He was definitely involved a lot in BDSM.

He seemed to be a person who particularly loved to indulge in pain or inflicting pain and whatnot, which was also very suspicious to us, especially when Veronica was explaining everything like how he was constantly hurting her. And that was just something that he loved to do.

What I couldn't stop thinking about was this woman who absolutely believed that her husband was a serial killer. I mean, just how frightening must their lives have been? Yeah.

Also, given the fact that he was very manipulative and a lot of stuff that she didn't know, she only later realized that he was actually dragging her. So she would fall asleep and he would go around and do dark things. And you're just sleeping in the same bed, not knowing who this person is, not expecting what he's capable of. It's definitely terrifying. More with Marina and Florence after the break.

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Hi all, Kate Gibson here of The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson. This week we talked to Whoopi Goldberg about lots of things. But one of the things we talked to her about is how as a science fiction and graphic novel fan, she never saw herself on those screens or on those pages growing up. I mean, I didn't realize that part of me until I watched Star Trek. And I saw it because I love sci-fi.

And for some reason, it never occurred to me that I was missing until I was present. You're not going to want to miss this episode of The Bookcase from ABC News. And so, Florence, you have been looking into some trends specifically regarding who could be victimized by a serial killer. And so in that, what did you learn? And what was important to keep in mind, though, as you looked into specifically this Veronica and Archie case?

Well, in serial homicide, I think there's just a lot of different trends, but I think the most prevalent one is the fact that a lot of them come from vulnerable backgrounds, either being more physically vulnerable or coming from marginalized backgrounds where they may be afraid to speak up for help for whatever reason. And the cases that we looked at with regards to Archie and Veronica...

Similarly involved individuals who had vulnerabilities. For instance, there was Donna Ocock, who was a young female teenager in distress, seeking help in the middle of the night. And then there was Erin Gilmore, a young female who lived alone. And Susan Tice, who was also another woman living alone. But even with this trend in mind, I thought it was important not to fall into this trap of being very stringent. Even though there are similarities between some of the cases, I'm also keeping in mind that modus operandi, things like that, can avoid...

which can impact variation of victim profiles. In the Veronica and Archie case, because it happened so long ago compared to when you were all investigating it, I know the team took a lot of time to look at eyewitness sketches during this series. How reliable is that really? And what are the pros and cons of working with that kind of evidence? There were sketches of a person who was...

we thought was Archie that were posted online. But again, as you said, it was a long time ago. There was no cameras. There was no cell phones. I have mixed feelings about the sketches because there are so many biases that can come into play.

And also, eyewitness testimony cannot be always reliable, you know, unless there is like a prominent feature like a tattoo on the face or a big scar, you know, it's very difficult sometimes to memorize person's face in detail. So that can be problematic. And Florence, what's your view on that? There's just a lot of different factors that can impact the accuracy of the profile, like

even the things that we really don't think about physical space and lighting could obscure the accuracy of an eyewitness sketch the witness's state of mind during their encounter with an offender like were they lucid or if it was a victim who's like providing eyewitness sketch could the trauma of their encounter with the offender have any sort of impact on how they remember what the offender looked like I think maybe that piece of evidence is good as like baseline but I just feel like there are more cons and pros with this type of evidence you

You know, I think you're absolutely right about all of that. And that kind of evidence rarely holds up in court.

It's also interesting because you're investigating this case that happened so long ago, and you only have the tools at your disposal that you have, which is why I know the Midnight Order went to great lengths to look deeply into this case. You were even helping with grid searches, which I found to be really fascinating to actually put yourself in those places once again, even if it was decades later.

And there was this one case in particular where you talked about Lois Hannah. I mean, Lois had been reported missing in Ontario 35 years ago. But during that grid search you did, there was some peach-colored fabric that was found. And

One of the searchers you were with actually said they thought it could be an important piece of evidence. I found that to be pretty interesting. Marina, what actually happened with that evidence? And were you surprised by his reaction?

I definitely think it was very surprising, honestly, given the fact how much time had passed. This piece of cloth went into the lab and we obviously were interested to see, oh my God, it actually matched, right, the clothing Louis was wearing that night, even though it was very surprising, you know, but at the same time, it came back, unfortunately, negative. So it wasn't a full success. But I would say what was a takeaway from that grid search is just to keep that case alive.

to remind people Lewis has not been forgotten and to support the brothers. This was probably one of the most important pieces of the Great Surges.

I mean, I agree. It was certainly impactful, even if the peach cloth wasn't a match and it didn't help investigate her disappearance. It was clearly impactful to Lois's family that you were all out there doing that and that you were so dedicated. And I know the Midnight Order approaches every case with empathy first.

And I think Morena specifically, I mean, that really showed when you spoke with her brothers. Honestly, the meeting with them was incredible. They're such an amazing family. And just listening about Lois, you know, in her life and how they're still attached to her and she's still a big part of the family, even though she was gone for so many years now. You can feel it, you know.

You talked about your own brother in that time and what it would feel like for you if he went missing. Can you talk a little bit more about what it's like using that empathy as part of your investigation? The conversations that we've had with Lewis's brothers definitely put me in their shoes and just made me think, you know, what would I do if my brother went missing?

And just like their lives stopped in that time when Louis disappeared, I feel like my life would have stopped as well. It definitely helped me to feel in some way their pain, you know, what they were going through, how awful it would feel losing your person, your sibling, you know, that you grew up with.

Definitely also helped me to see their perspective and understand the importance of keeping that case alive for them and bringing justice for their family.

It's one thing to approach a case with empathy, but as an investigator, you always have to remain objective. How do you manage that, especially in this Veronica and Archie case? Because, again, you had this woman laying it out for you the way she saw it, and you had to remain objective that entire time and not get tunnel vision based on what she thought.

For me personally, it's important to know how and when to turn off your emotions. I believe that they can be very distracting and skew away things, you know, from the facts because you kind of have to approach the investigation with a cold mind. Personally, for me, it's not a hard thing to do. I feel like it happens just automatically because what is the goal? What are we trying to achieve here? You know, are we trying to sit and to whine about it or we want to actually help that woman?

Or we actually want to find what's the truth? What are the facts? What actually happened? You know, who is involved? What would be more useful in this situation? I feel like it's important to emphasize. Obviously, it's important to provide that support to the families. But our job by the end of the day is to find the truth. So I feel like for me, that's what I prioritize, you know, in the moment when we are sitting at the table and brainstorming the ideas and working on the files.

So as you're taking on this case sent to you from Veronica, she has a treasure trove of information. You've built this profile of Archie, her husband that she believes is a serial killer. And as you're investigating, you're doing grid searches, you're speaking with law enforcement, you're speaking with the families. You still ran into several discrepancies between Archie, the man you came to learn about, and the

the profile that you had essentially made of a serial killer and this profile that you were tracking. So Marina, at what point did these discrepancies start to bubble up? And you thought, I don't know, maybe he's not the guy.

It definitely took some time before we started seeing discrepancies because yes, as you said, we had to go to the crime scenes, we had to, you know, write out the timeline. That was probably the biggest piece. The timeline was not matching. He lived in those areas, but just not in those times when they were killed. And that was one of the first signifiers for us to go like, "Huh, it doesn't look like it could be him."

and again, let's say going into the crime scene of Christine Prince. Looking at the area where her body was dumped, it just doesn't look like it was one person.

Thinking about Archie, we thought that he was the only person who was committing all of it. We never came across a thought that he potentially had a partner. So that was one of the other discrepancies. And, you know, like one after the other, they were piling up. And eventually we just have to understand that probably Archie was not the one who was involved. And Florence, how about you? What are your thoughts?

The really clear signifier was the fact that we had DNA evidence. That's the most tangible type of evidence that can rule someone out as a suspect and did rule him out on several of the cases that we looked at.

I'm just curious as to what it was like for you on a personal level to see Sasha get this package with this woman who really was absolutely convinced that her husband had been a serial killer and you spend all this time investigating. And then to say, no, no, we do not believe that he was responsible for these deaths.

Even though whatever she experienced was terrible and maybe in some way she was hoping that she was right in her own personal investigation. We validated everything she went through and we wanted to help her wholeheartedly. We still had to stick to the truth. Like he was not the person who was involved in the killings.

I felt like it was bittersweet because while that path was closed, reality is they're still victims whose cases are unaccounted for. Their loved ones are suffering, not knowing who murdered their loved ones and why they were targeted. So it's still, it's frustrating in that sense.

And Marina, you're now starting your career in law enforcement. What are some of the things that you think will stay with you from this experience with the Midnight Order, especially pertaining to this Veronica and Archie investigation? I would say one of the most important things is considering perspective of the victims, of the victims' families. It probably also ties up to my volunteering with Victim Services.

I think it definitely helped me to pay more attention. You know, when something happens, all of the attention goes to the perpetrator. Not a lot of attention goes to the victims. And just being, you know, at midnight order and speaking to the families, you know, going to their places, see how they lived and how life basically stopped after the crime happened. Perpetrator took away a most important person in their lives.

Considering their perspective, considering them, you know, the damage that has been done to them definitely will always stay with me. In the future, I'm hoping to become a crime analyst, just like Florence, and it involves investigations. It's basically a civilian detective. I'm hoping that this will stay with me. Remember the families, remember the damage that has been done to them. I absolutely understand that. The work of the Midnight Order is clearly not over.

And that was my conversation with Marina and Florence. We'll be back next week with two other members of the Midnight Order, Hannah, the Midnight Order's database expert, and Aya, who's a psychotherapist and works with former offenders that are trying to reintegrate into society. We'll also explore the dark mind of serial killer Robert Pickton, why he targeted specific groups of women and how systematic failures allowed it to happen.

Inside the Midnight Order is a co-production of Freeform and ABC Audio and a companion podcast to the Freeform true crime documentary series, Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order. Now streaming on Hulu. Soundtrack available July 19th on all music streaming platforms. I'm Kena Whitworth. My co-host is Nancy Schwartzman, director and executive producer of Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order.

This series was produced by Camille Peterson, Meg Fierro, Amira Williams, and Jalyn McDuffie, with assistance from Freeforms, Katie Celia, and Megan Watera. Susie Liu is our supervising producer. Music by Nick Sena.

Special thanks to ABC Audio's Liz Alessi, Josh Kohan, Madeline Wood, and Ariel Chester. And Freeform's Amanda Kell, Allie Braman, Lindsay Chamness, Jasmine Karamzada, Heather Taylor, and Mike Wong. Laura Mayer is Executive Producer of Podcast Programming at ABC Audio.

Hi all, Kate Gibson here of The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson. This week we talked to Whoopi Goldberg about lots of things. But one of the things we talked to her about is how as a science fiction and graphic novel fan, she never saw herself on those screens or on those pages growing up. I mean, I didn't realize that part of me until I watched Star Trek. And I saw it because I love sci-fi.

And for some reason, it never occurred to me that I was missing until I was present. You're not going to want to miss this episode of The Bookcase from ABC News.