Navigating Justice: Hugh Barber on Justice and Victim Advocacy
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Hey, it's Britt. Today I got to sit down and talk to Hugh Barber, a seasoned trial lawyer. He was a criminal prosecutor in Seattle for 30 years. He's tried over 100 cases, including aggravated murder and sexual assault. During our conversation, we do dive into sexual assault, rape, and other topics that may be difficult to hear, but his mantra is doing good and helping people, and that really shows.

Hugh and I got to talk about a lot of different topics and his perspective as an expert in the criminal justice world really helped me navigate some of the things that came up during the podcast. So here's my conversation with Hugh.

So, as someone that is dating, my daughter, Bree, is dating, being in situations where you feel helpless or you feel like you just need to get out or you know you're unsafe, what are some things that I can do or that my daughter can do in those moments to, I don't want to say collect evidence, but to find different ways that would help a prosecutor? Yeah.

if that person decided to press charges. So you're talking about a situation where somebody has been sexually assaulted? Or physically, or, you know, like what...

I, this is such a broad question and I really hope you can answer it. But as a woman, what do we do? Yeah, that's such a fact specific question. It would depend on the scenario. You know, the difference between I was beaten and violently attacked and raped as opposed to I kept saying no, he kept saying yes, right? Those are radically different scenarios. There's going to be radically different available physical evidence. Right. You know, in the former scenario, if somebody is violently assaulted, you know,

at least call a friend right away. Hearsay is generally not admissible. You telling us now about things that Kanan did, I would not be able to testify in court about that. It's hearsay. But if something happened to you tonight and you called me on the phone immediately afterwards and you're in tears and you're like, oh my God, somebody just broke in. This is what happened to me. That's called an excited utterance. And

And the theory is that you haven't had enough time to sort of reflect and manufacture a lie because you're still under the influence of the startling event. I would be allowed to testify. So call a friend, call 9-1-1. 9-1-1 calls are excited utterances too.

Those are admissible. So do all the things that you might be hesitant to do because you're afraid, oh, nobody's going to believe me or nobody. I mean, make it easier for us to believe you by doing all the things that would seem obvious to the juror who's never been sexually assaulted that you should do. They're hard, the hard things, but they're necessary. And, you know, I never want to discourage anyone from reporting. It is a

But it is something that people need to do, you know, for themselves. And I'm assuming things like going to the hospital and getting rape kits and trying to get through that are sort of the best steps to make sure that if they choose to press charges. Well, I guess they don't choose to press charges. They file a report. So what happens is, you know, somebody will call 911. Generally speaking, a patrol officer will show up.

Patrol officer will assess what kind of situation is this. Is it a DV situation? Is it theft or robbery? Is it a sexual assault? Then they will bring a detective with specialization in that unit out to handle it. And that detective will sort of walk you through the process. Let's get you to Harborview for a sexual assault exam, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So what will happen then is a detective will collect all that evidence, you know, get the sexual assault report and refer it to the prosecutor's office.

The prosecutor's office has in the special assault unit, in all of the specialty units, filers, filing deputies. They review every case that comes in and, you know, make a decision either alone or in collaboration with the rest of the unit. We often had staffings where as many people as could would gather. The filer would lay out the facts. We would grill them with questions. What about this? Is there any dash cam? Is there any security video on the entrance of the apartment building? You know, can we get more information?

And then a decision is made whether or not to pursue a case. Yeah. And in terms of victims' cooperation, you know, TV cops are like, do you want to press charges? Well, victims don't press charges. The state presses charges. The willingness of a victim to cooperate can play a part in whether or not people press charges, right?

But, for example, in domestic violence cases, our office was one of the first in the country to not decline cases simply because a victim said, I don't want to press charges.

You're not going to sit there with a broken nose and a broken jaw and a guy in cuffs in the backseat of the car waiting to be let out so he can go back inside. We're not going to walk away just because you don't want to press charges. This is not just a crime against you. It's a crime against the state. So victims can have an impact on whether a case goes forward depending on the case, but they're not the final arbiter of whether or not something is charged. Unfortunately, my experience, my family's experience, when my sister died, it wasn't this...

we're going to solve this case. It was a couple of patrol cops that came, they saw a situation, they sort of assessed it and made a decision. And that's kind of how the case went the whole time. It took everything that we had, including I was friends with some of the higher ups in politics and stuff at the time, contacting them, doing whatever we could to get a second autopsy.

And that second autopsy...

reversed the first autopsy's sort of conclusion. And then there was still no willingness to look into the case. You know, they ruled it as a suicide, a 20-year-old girl, you know, she had a previous drug problem because of this ex-boyfriend who was abusive. And clearly that's what happened. It's a closed case. And

There are so many different reasons why we don't believe it was a suicide. And a lot of them were physical things that were in her apartment. And other people that had seen him come in and out of her apartment that night. And I mean, there was everything was just this. Something's not right. But we never got that. Here, let us investigate and see. And it's really interesting.

And I think that the TV and the movies and stuff sort of, you think people are going to come in and check fibers and, I don't know, even check cameras and do that. And none of that happened with Braley's case. And it definitely put off, for me personally, some trust in law enforcement. And so as a woman to walk up to a cop and say, this guy just sexually assaulted me, it hurt.

it would be harder for me to do that now. I know because I haven't done it. I've been sexually assaulted and I have never reported any of them for different reasons at different times in my lives. And that's, it's a really painful thing that happens or is happening in society, I think, is that there's just so many women that are being hurt and they feel alone in that. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how to fix it. Yeah.

I'm going to keep talking until I do, though. Yeah. I mean, it's like with any system. It's only as good as the people who fill it, right, who sit in the seats. It's a hard time to be a cop right now. It's a hard time to be a prosecutor. I mean, for many years, we were the good guys. I think we're viewed now as the bad guys, right?

Law school enrollment is down. I think applications to the prosecutor's office are down. I don't have any clear answer to why. But, you know, I would say this. There are people who are truly committed to doing that work. And by that, I mean police work, detective work and prosecutorial work.

So just like when you hire a public defender or get a public defender, you get the one that's assigned to you. And he or she might not be as good as the one in the office next door. And unfortunately, that's true with cops, detectives and prosecutors, too.

But I am a firm believer in our role in law enforcement to protect the public and to protect victims. Victims are not our clients, but I treated them that way. That's who I was working for. So, you know, it's not, it's not, I don't want to paint a bleak picture. And I would still encourage, nobody can do anything if it's not reported.

Right. Well, it's the same in dating and taking risks in dating. I have had a few people say, oh, this is a man-hating podcast. I don't hate men. I know amazing men. I've raised amazing men. So when I look at...

police officers or prosecutors or people that are in those roles, it's not everyone. You know, like you said, there are good people in every situation that we have in interpersonal relationships, trying to weed out the ones that aren't going to do the things that they need to do to benefit that relationship. But there are some times when it's a little overwhelmingly sad. Yeah. And it

It's really hard. How did you maintain empathy in your job? Because empathy to like with Kanan and those things, like it's such a huge part of what he lacks. And seeing so much of what you have seen. I think I've always sort of been empathetic. My mother was an artist. My father was a surgeon. They split up when I was about two, divorced.

And I spent my formative years with her and my sister and, you know, consistent with stereotypes. She was emotive and empathetic and intuitive and communicative. And my father was not. He was more stoic. And so because I spent my formative years with her, I think that just sort of attached to me in greater proportions than the other. And then as a prosecutor...

It goes back to that privilege aspect of it. Watching, again, mostly women and families of murder victims, I was in the homicide unit for six years, watching them navigate grief and triumph over it.

in whatever form it takes for them, to whatever degree it sticks with them, is a remarkable thing and really super inspiring. I mean, I get emotional about it now. So I didn't, you know, I wouldn't sit down with a victim and necessarily let

her see how I'm feeling. I mean, I would say that's got to be incredibly fucking difficult, right? And be honest about it. I didn't display it in front of juries, although there were times in some closing arguments I'd have to act like I needed a glass of water and turn away from the jury and take a sip and calm myself down and get back to them. But it was, it's a driver for me. Empathy is,

makes you intellectually curious. It makes you ask questions. It makes you pay attention to the answers. It makes you see somebody as more than just, you know, flesh and bones, right? We are all just a potluck of experiences. And if you're not really empathetic, you don't

you know, dig that deep to find out what they are. And the deeper you can dig about those experiences, the better you are as a prosecutor in describing to a jury how to judge your witness's credibility.

Not just as a prosecutor, but as a human. I mean, that's where you get the most joy out of life is when you really connect with someone. And a lot of that is being able to see the world from their perspective. Yeah. I've always been better at deep talk than small talk. Yeah. I don't just trauma dump on the microphone. I will have random conversations with random people and

I'm sure they walk away like, what the fuck was that? Who is she? And I'm just like, no. And then my sister died. Because it's how I connect with people is all of the things that have happened in my life, they're not unusual. They're not even exceptional. They're just life things. You have a...

alcoholic parent and a sibling passes. And I mean, all of these things just happen. But we don't talk about how that shapes sort of who we are or how that shaped me and put me in a situation where I was vulnerable, susceptible to Kanan's charm. Yeah. And I don't know if you think that there are different personalities that are more susceptible. I don't know if I'd say personalities, but I would think

People that, you know, I have a fear of abandonment because all of the people that I love have, you know, my mom didn't love me. She's the one person that's supposed to. The one person that is supposed to. I wasn't good enough for her.

Whether or not that's true, that's how it feels. And so, you know, finding someone like Kanan who comes in and is just all-encompassing love and validation, it's why I feel like it was so easy for him to just sweep me off my feet. And I'm sure as a prosecutor, you have come across people that have all sorts of

awful histories that have you know leave them vulnerable to those sorts of situations and put them in positions where they're easily manipulated yeah I mean I don't know if they're there's a saying in the DV world domestic violence world that an abuser and a victim could be in a crowded room at a party not even know each other and they'll find each other like opposite ends of a magnet I don't know if there's truth to that and even if there is I don't know I mean

We want to say vulnerable. I'm not sure I like that word because it suggests blame, right? It suggests there's something about you that made you his target. Fuck that. There's something about him who sought you out, right? Now, what might be interesting is for you and all the other women that you found, and you've probably got a sense of this already, talk about like,

what's your biggest fear? What's your biggest weakness? What's your greatest strength? And see what sort of crossover there is. I would suspect that like being empathetic and being compassionate might be one of those things they look for because they suspect that means you're forgiving. That means you will accept their fucked up life story they tell you, whether it's true or not.

Right. I don't know. But does that mean that you should stop being empathetic and passionate and compassionate? No.

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all of the things that I thought I had with Kanan. And the only way to do that, my dad says this in one of the episodes, is you got to keep trying. Eventually, you know, it'll work out. But I do think that people that are incredibly empathetic and kind because of independence and trauma that they had in their childhood...

All of the women are incredibly successful, educated, strong. They're mowing their own lawn. They're buying their own groceries. I mean, they're living their life, raising their children. And all of them had that same, you know, how did I fall for this? So here's a question.

You guys took a two and a half hour walk on your first day. Yeah. During that two and a half hours, how deep did you get? Because my question is like, if these guys are looking for those sorts of life experiences, what if they don't get them right away? So that's the interesting part is, um,

Like, I had asked him on that date about his son's mom. And it's a typical question in my age bracket if they have kids. Like, do you get along with your ex? Because a lot of times guys will be like, no, she's crazy. You know, fuck that crazy bitch. And I'm like, meh. Yeah, red flag. You know, but he told me the story about how she had died by suicide. And I did not tell him anything about my sister. So that first date wasn't...

these deep, intense conversations, but it was very comfortable and everything that I said, he sort of had a similar story, but really basic things. And I think because it wasn't a deep conversation, because it wasn't this intense thing,

It was comfortable. It was like, oh, I really like this guy. I've really connected with this guy. And then what ended up happening is over the next three days in between our dates, I was flooded with text messages. And he was sending pictures from like when he was a kid, his time in the military. But it was constant, like ding, ding, ding, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, just constantly

All of a sudden, if my phone didn't ding in 10 minutes, I was like, wait, why hasn't this guy texted me? And I think that that is how it starts. And so you get wrapped up in that. But even the initial stuff is, do you keep your toothbrush in the drawer or on the counter? You know, it wasn't intense stuff. Right.

It's, to me, grooming. How much information can I get? And how many little things make me feel special or connected to him? And it's really dumb stuff. Yeah. You know, I don't even know if him and I...

had a full conversation about my sister and her death. At some point, he knew that I had lost my sister, but I never sat down with him and, you know, shared that story. My mom was diagnosed with cancer while we were dating, and so I had shared a little bit about my history with my mom. But it was...

It was real low bar stuff, but constant. Yeah. Constant communication, constant communication.

Attention and validation. The kind of attention which, like, if you didn't like this guy, if he didn't have the dimples, if he wasn't like an Adonis, you'd say, this dude is fucking crazy. You stalker, leave me alone. Why are you still doing this? But when you have that initial attraction and then that attraction is reciprocated in that way, it's like, oh, my gosh.

this is amazing. This is real. This is what, you know, all those movies are about. You know, you meet somebody and then you just instantly connect. What do people say in hindsight to you? Like, what's the one thing people say after a crime about what they should have realized was wrong when it's too good to be true? Most of my cases didn't

evolve over long periods of time. They were singular acts of extreme violence. And so it's more just as a human or having friends, girlfriends, guy friends who've been in situations similar to this. I don't know how much use there is in looking back and saying I should have known. Because, I mean, we look back. I was writing little things. He got kicked off the football team.

Why? Yeah. I mean, is it a big deal? And in the moment, would you think to ask or care to ask? No. But in hindsight, like, that would have been interesting to know. Ex-wife committed suicide and was an addict. I mean, that's a horrible thing, especially a horrible thing to be skeptical about. But it's kind of like...

Tell me more. Right. Sister-in-law, Tasha, who's not a sister-in-law, starting and monitoring his Hinge account. Yeah. That's weird. It is, but when you tell it in a story, it's cute. 100%. So my point is that if you've gone through what you've gone through and then you sit down and sort of take an accounting and you come up with all those things that might have been red flags –

that's perhaps a good exercise, but I don't know that it's going to change behavior in the future because there'll be different red flags and you'll have different reasons for ignoring them. You know what it has done for me? Because it is, it's different stories. I'm going to hear a different story or, you know, something else. And it's like, is that cute? Is that, is that wrong? But there was a guy that I've been dating for,

but was keeping it more casual. Like, I'm not looking for, you know, forever, but I like to meet people and go out and stuff. And one of these men, after our first date, he wanted to be exclusive. And he really was a little aggressive about it. Yeah. And he was like, well, but we really connected and I really like you. And how am I going to get to know you and feel comfortable getting to know you if you're dating other people? And I'm like, well,

But I don't know you. Like, we went out on one date. If you want to keep dating, like, I'm happy to get to know you. I enjoyed our time together. And I told him, I was like, my therapist said I'm not allowed to get exclusive with anyone until I am, you know, get to know him very well. And he said, tell your therapist to suck my dick. And I was like, no. But then he kept...

Every week or two, he'd text me or message me. So, you know, have you changed mind or these things? And I'm like, you're a bag full of crazy cats that I, you know, but the way my sense of humor is what I have laughed at that two years ago.

Would I have been like, oh, that's a really funny thing? Or would I have even said, my therapist said, I need to, you know, get to know you better? Or if we had a great night, would I have said, you know, yeah, I can see you exclusively until we... Because it's kind of endearing that he asked. Because... He cares that much about me. Because, and there's part of the, in the back of your head where it's like...

Well, isn't it nice that someone wants to see me exclusively? Isn't that the goal? And so then your brain is just like, what's pre-wired? How can I control my responses so that I make sure that I'm safe and that I am not going to end up with another canine? Because I attract, like you said earlier, if there's two people, a victim and an abuser in a room, they find me because...

I like to talk to people and I'm full of life. And they're like, I'd like to have all of that. So you asked earlier, what should somebody do who's been sort of victimized and who's skeptical or concerned about whether or not the process will play out in a way that brings about some sort of justice. But part of your question was sort of preventative behavior on the front end. And this is going to sound super old school, but perhaps even Victorian. But the whole like

Three-month rule, two-month rule, it's not a fucking bad idea because dudes won't wait that long unless they really, truly care.

I mean, if you're just looking at a hookup, that's fine. Do whatever. But if you're looking for a relationship, it just seems to make sense to me. I can't count the number of relationships I've been in where it's like, I wish we'd have waited because that just changes everything too quickly. And the dynamic is different and the emotions are different, especially when you're dealing in a situation where so many of these relationships are from social media. So they're not really vetted, you know, Hinge and Bumble and Tinder. Just go slow.

So I will say I love the three-month rule if you're looking for something serious, but you can't tell the man that you have the three-month rule because there are some men that, you know, it's like, okay. Oh, I'm going to get her at two. I just need to do this for three months and then I can go. So I, like, absolutely three-month rule, don't tell anybody. Or in addition to the I can wait three months, like, oh, I'll break her down in two. Or it's.

It's like when every single person, if I think that there's going to be a sexual relationship, I text, you know, in a text message, condoms are non-negotiable. If you're going to whine about it, I will literally kick you out into the hallway naked. Like...

we're not going to get in the middle of it and then you're going to try and convince me out of this. So if that's not okay with you, totally cool, but I'm not your girl. Still happen 50% of the time. You know, men are, oh, of course, of course, you know, sexual health is important and all of these things. And then, you know, come down to it and it's like, you got to go. Like, you got to get out. And it's a little fascinating to me that men are so willing to

put their dick in things without protection because they don't know me, you know, and or any of these other women. And it's just that's a whole other podcast. We have talked about so many different topics. And again, I thank you so much for coming and chatting with me about all of these. The pleasure is mine.

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