Finding the joy of service with Milk Bar's Christina Tosi and restaurateur Will Guidara
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If a restaurant doing that well, you can see a couple that's been married for thirty years, like rediscover one another for the first time.

Hey, everyone is adam grant. Welcome back to rethinking my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the ted audio collective. I'm an organizational psychologist, and i'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new .

ways of thinking.

Joining me today is my favorite duo in food, cristina tosi, and will get dera. Christina is the founder, C E O and chef and milk bar. She's been a judge on master chef when two James beard awards and publish multiple cook books.

Whether Christinia speciality is desert, her husband whales is dinner well is an accomplish restaurant. Her, who built a eleven medicine into the world's number one restaurant and wrote the best seller, unreasonable hospitality, which is about the power of giving people more than they expect. And sometimes it's not about the food at all.

What's the cost of a kd poles and sand and two plastic leds from the local drug store versus the food cost unlike two plates of miss coffee duck?

Yeah not that different.

As you'll see, Christinia will go to extraordinary banks to create great experiences for others. And it's not just the principle of their work, but their marriage too. They're all about finding the joy of service.

It's funny how these little things that we are raised, their joy trails, their joy trails and they're mapped in all of us. We just have to figure out how they are and where to find them, where to pick them up now and how to bring them into our lives because they will help unlock everything.

Christina, what do you think of unreasonable hospitality .

as a concept? real? Adam, you know, I was raised by a mom who taught me that life is for you to make, and and I mean that in the best way possible. Just to say, I didn't realize that life was so fun and magical for me, but maybe not for others.

I realized that I was that way, because he made life happen, and SHE made life happen for me and for my sister, and for the most random and most intentional people around us growing up. And so I think I learned the feeling in spirit of engaging people and making people feel seen and welcome, and making them feel things that were intentional and positive. Before I even had worse to IT, IT wasn't until I was a much, much, much holder human that I met will and got to witness at first hand. So unreasonable hospitality rings very near dear to my heart. And it's been pretty fun to be raised with that spirit, but to watch IT come to life through words and now be out in the world through my husband.

But I, I want to just wait. He's gna pick a fight. okay? good. No, no, no, no food. no. But I feel like what i've been brought to talk to different companies over the last two years about these ideas.

In some cases, it's too try to convince them that this stuff matters, and in other cases is to provide some language to help particulate their collective intuition. And obviously, I would not have married someone who didn't emboss the things that were so incredibly important to me. And i'm not saying this because she's my wife or because he is sitting right next to me right now.

But Christina and bodies IT in the little ways and in the big ways. I remember one of the the moments when I fell in love with they're not as a person but as a business person is when I learned that he called her like shipping business, a care package business, because SHE understood that you can buy people cookies or you can send them a care package. And even in the naming mechanism alone, IT conveys a very different sentiment. I feel like he got this stuff long before SHE met me, and it's one of the things that drew me to her in the first place.

Incredibly sweet. Okay, I really hate to burst that bubble, but I have to say that, well, you've done some things that other people would consider crazy in the name of unreasonable. The first one that really peaked my curiosity when I first learned about your work was the hot dog moment .

I was in the dating room. I was clearing plates on a busier, the Normal lent service, which, by the way, is an important thing to do, the higher and the higher QQ you get, the more important as them. When you're helping your team, you do the most meaning task, some meta signal to them that you're never going asked them to do selling, you're not willing to do yourself.

And when I was clearing their appetizers, this, by the way, was a table of europeans on vacation to new york just to eat at fancy restaurants. And this was their last meal. And they are going right to the airport afterwards to head back comment while I was there, overheard them talking.

And they were going on and on of their amazing trip theyd been to the berndt and then yelling passage, if you don't know what those restaurants are, trust and have fancy, they sound that they're the good ones. They have french names just in the frenchness of their names. But then one one woman at the table of jumping said, they have, but we never got to have a neck city hot dog.

And IT was one of those light bub moments, and I walked as calmly as I couldn't into the kitchen, dropped off the play to ran outside boat. Hot dog, ran back inside, then came the hard part, convincing my fancy chef to serve IT in a fancy restaurant, but I asn't trust me. And he cut the hot dog up in a four perfect pieces as put one in each play a little swish of catch up muster.

But we call a canal which is again french for a fanciful scoop of Sarah and relish to each play. And then before their final savory course, which was at the time our signature honey eleven glaze muscovy duck that have a dry edge for two weeks, I brought out what we end your called the dirty water dog. And I explained that I said, hey, I want to make sure you don't go home with any colony regrets. Here's that hot dog. And they freaked out and kind of systemized that is what LED everything that came from there .

Christinia. What was your reaction when you first found out that? Well, did that met?

Will I totally judge the book by the cover as like, oh, this guys. Like a fancy restaurant guide. And even now, knowing how many years ago IT happened, even now IT is exciting to me, right?

Like this idea of someone that is unable, bachelet, unafraid to break the rules, so I break the rules to shake his own team for, like the very purpose, very artistic, very intentional, sleep walking for hope of something different, bigger, Better. Like for me, is the rule breaking of IT that just delights me, but like that makes me smile and makes me shake my head and makes me go like, that's what i'm talking about. That is what living life should be like and look like and seem like.

Back then I was Christina and dave chan running mom foco and a Christina, a built milk bar. Everything they built was almost as a reaction to what people like us. We're doing up town. IT was like downtown and uptown. IT was like the montage, the apple.

I had worked in those other factors y fancy restaurants that wills talking about, right? Like we had lived that life and we were like, absolutely not. That's not fruit.

That's not who we are. We wanted democratize savery food and dessert. And and, and he was .

pretty supposed not to like me until until i've made IT impossible for her to not like me anymore.

Well, Christina is not surprising that you are drawn to the rule breaking. Rumor has IT that as a kid, you were not allowed to say.

I can't ever, or i'm bored, I can't and i'm bored. My mom is like, nope, nope. Take the soap, go washed your mouth out, not in this house.

Those are escape goats. Those are lazy things to say. And that is not who you are. You are more creative than that.

And so if you're life for a comic book, that would be the origin story. And then I would like the next panel would be, okay, here you are, taking the milk at the bottom of a serious and turning in the soft office scream.

First generation italian american, like very study, very passionate about what they do, but also really passionate about staying in your lane and doing what's right and being good, and that that will bring you somewhere in life. And IT wasn't until much later in life that I realized that I knew all these rules and that I had this creative spirit that was like waiting to be let out.

My folks were like super duper passionate about being the best, the very best of what you do. They I think maybe just underestimated that creativity has a space in the professional version of yourself in the workspace and that was really want to discover um building note barks. I think that's really where I came out of me IT.

Wasn't until I realized that I actually had my own mike, and that I had that all of these things would add up, like the other, the other mom ism was, you have to drink your milk. I had to drink my nail, I had eat my vegetables, and I had to go to the girls y start with her once a week. And so I had negotiated somehow, by some feet of, I don't know what that I was like to choose one box of syria every week at the grocery store, as long as when we got home SHE deports much milk over the cereal as he won in.

I had, like the entire road map to serial milk this entire time with me, and didn't find the unlock in IT until I open note burn. I realized when I going to serve in a ice cream, we can be more creative than that, right? What is the thing that everyone knows that will make them feel seen and loved and like themselves? But also, with this fresh new take on life in the world.

i'm reminded of some research showing that, wait, I yeah, i'm going to do this because what do I do? I talk about research that all I have. okay.

I love this evidence that if you look at really creative kids they attended to come from households that had fewer rules than their peers, but very clear values. The few rules list would be the, you can say I can or am bored, but the values are really clear. You've got to find interesting, meaningful ways to use. Your time is so interesting that a common thread between the two of you is this just flagged ant disrespect for convention and refusing to do things the way they've always been done.

I do think what we haven't common is a reference for history and for what's come for us, and for learning all the rules, but not feeling behold to them and choosing which ones we want to break. We look wake pretty button up and professional in many ways. But now that one of us will ever take the answer because it's always been done that way as a reason for why we should continue .

doing IT that way. So rina, be inventing the way that, that ice cream and desert is, is done. Well, not to be outdone, the most extreme thing i'm aware of that you've done was the couple who couldn't go on vacation.

I think if you're looking to bring people joy, you pick up on little things. And then if you're paying attention, there are opportunities all around you in a system matter which once you grab hold onto they had a big beach vacation. IT was cancelled because of inClement ate weather.

Somehow they got off our weights list at the eleven hour. They were now in our restaurant instead of on the beach. Just pretty cool too.

But we wanted to bring them to the beach. We sent our handy man to the home deepo, which was just down to twenty third street with a couple of guys. We brought hundreds of pounds of sound back to the restaurant, to the private dunning on which was empty.

We covered the floor sound. We bought a kittie pool filled with water, beach chairs served in my ties. And IT was when they were done with their dinner.

We said, hey, just for free, you go. We have one last treat. We just want to bring up to the private anding room. And if they could not make IT the beach, we brought the beach to them, that's less a part of the meal, then IT is making them feel something.

And of all the thousands of things we did for all of these people, when I run into people who we did one of these things for, they can never remember a single thing. They aid. But you'll never forget these things, right? And we were celebrated for our food, but IT was in things like this that we actually left people with memories.

When I first heard that story, I was immediately reminded of a hotel that the heath brothers wrote about. The hotel is a complete dump, but IT has glowing reviews because they have a pop tico hotline. Yes, thank you.

You pick up the phone and all you can do. Yeah, it's in counter cornea. All you can do is order popsicles. But who wouldn't .

forget that he walked out of the four? There are red phone. You pick up the phone, they say pop scotland will be read out and a guy comes out in a toxic o and gives you one of those red, White, blue bomb pops and walks away and IT. For years, it's been like the second highest rated hotel in all of los Angeles on trip advisor. I say that in a restaurant, at the food, the service, the design, they're merely ingredients in the recipe of human connection. We are actually doing our job when we create the conditions where people can walk in and sit across from the table because, by the way, the table is one of the few remaining places on earth where people feel a compulsion to put their phones down and actually lean in and reengage. And of a restaurant doing that well, you can see a couple had been married for thirty years, like rediscover one another for the first time.

You both are big believer s in treating people Better than they expect and giving them more than they signed up for. And one of the reasons I was so drawn to this philosophy is it's exactly what I what I was trying to capture when I had, look, in the long run, it's Better to be a giver than to take her or a matter. If you are constantly looking to elevate people with no strings attached, you just get a lot of joy from that.

But too, you also end up in all these unexpected dividends from doing that, which include like a great reputation and all sorts of lessons that you have didn't expect to learn because you've got involved in things that weren't part of your usual way of living. I sometimes find IT a little bit of an appeal battle to get people to appreciate this way of thinking. I'm curious about what push back you get and how you countered my take on IT.

Is the bus back, of course, is gonna happen, and that's totally fine. That's just part of the magic making process. IT is about leading and pushing and continuing to refine the dream of making a moment happen for someone actually apolitical until everyone else comes along.

And it's okay. They're can be some strugglers in the back. No big deal because, by the way, it's contagious, right? Like the idea that you go to bed every night, you go, oh my gosh, I truly left this place Better than I found IT today. And I didn't leave a Better than I found IT because I was able to solve the bigger picture chAllenges, but rather because because I was able to do these small things, and I know these small things at up.

I want to push on some of the the sharper edges that that come up and and some of the chAllenges that that i've encountered with this way of Operating. So the first one is, where do you draw the line? I can see if you build a culture like this. And pretty soon people are more into, what can I do to to create a magical life changing experience than they are into cleaning up the kitchen during the job.

Do you have enough to of cups? Yeah, exactly. I mean, a attention point. IT is inevitably the like, if you got in your vegetables before, you can have your dessert right, like you still have to check the boxes. I think you have to learn to follow up the rules before you can learn to break them. I also think that's what makes you feel so good because also, if you're just out all day playing, you don't have an appreciation for playing.

I think everyone has hospitality in them is just a matter of whether someone has inspired IT out of them as so how do you get people to get on board with IT? Well, I don't think it's possible to know how could IT feels to give IT until you're first have experienced how good that feels to receive IT, but also, what gets talked about in an organization is what gets thought about in the same way that executing these gestures requires intentions.

So does creating a culture where they're consistently delivered and where they're delivered. ImbaLance, we have to think, called the rule ninety five five. That meant we manager money like many x ninety five percent of the time, such that we could earn the right to do this.

The other five percent of the time, we never talked about hospitality without also talking about excEllence because a prerecorded to all this stuff. You can't do this unless you're sitting on a foundation of a well built machine. But we also never talk about excelling without talking about hospitality because excEllence is merely tables kes. You're just fulfilling the based level promise you've made. Hospitality is what actually makes IT create.

I think another chAllenge that comes up is the the disappointment then the risk of disappointment when expectations go higher and higher. So yes, I can imagine having shown up at at one of your restaurants and saying, well, wait, I I heard you brought in snow for a couple that had never seen snow like, wear my snow. Why didn't you do something that was transformational for me?

So I was on a plane the other day. We pulled off from the terminal, and then they come over a lot, speaker saying, hey, ladies gentlemen, so sorry, we just got where there's an issue with the plan. We're going to be delayed here in the term for a little bit collective, grown of exasperation tion, right? But then what happened was the pilot came out from the coppet.

There were three like, families with little kids on the plan, walked up to the first one, said, hey, you wanted tk. The cockpit. They went back.

You went to the next one. Do you want to talk? They went back there. One, we're still delayed. He started giving tourists to adults.

I ask, like, how? What's the deal? And they are like, he does that every time.

Every time we're delays on the runway, he gives everyone tours the cockpit. Did I get to tour the cockpit? no.

Was that experience, ed, so much Better even for me, because other people did. Yes, where the flight attends, much more cheerful and hospitable because they were in an environment marked by hospitality. Yes, you write about IT in your book. Hospitality is a selfish pleasure. IT feels great to make other people feel good. And so even if you're not on the receiving end of some over the top gesture, all the people serving you, are you going to be serving you with so much more joy and enthusiasm and pride that your experience still will be markedly Better than that would be anywhere else?

You're also going to like a hardly more joyful place because you got to experience other people's, you got to witness other people's stroke, which is in an other .

to get yes, in psychology, that's called moral elevation.

moral vision.

I know you wanted that term.

I know you waiting for someone the same time. We have a drinking game here. Anytime someone moral elevation.

I think another chAllenge is it's easier to do this for customers that IT is for employees. And yes, amazon, I am looking at you there. There are tons of organizations that have built customer obsess cultures and struggle much more when IT comes to creating high quality, meaningful experiences for their employees. How do you think about squaring .

that circle? Well, I think it's much harder. IT is for me anyway, to build a culture where you create these kind of experiences for your customers if you don't start by creating them for your employees.

And Better way, this is a full on danny mars, right? You take care. Your team first, if it's not just because of the right thing to do, is just the most scalable investment of your time. Because if your team is on the receiving end of things like this now, they know what right looks like and they're going to be that much more likely to turn around and deliver these kinds of things to their customers.

When when the people who worked for me came in to dinner, the things we did for them far crazy and more significant than anything we ever did for any guest we ever served, for two reasons. One, I was a way of saying, I appreciate you, and you deserve this more than anyone who can afford to come in here because you are on our team. But two, their selfishness in that show them how good that feels they're going to be in that much. We're inclined to want to go out and do things like that for other people.

Let's take a birthday for example. I think that's the easiest way to think about how do you think about being like t mate obsessed when IT someone's birthday inside the walls of knock barm IT becomes like this flock effort, this group effort of like you never leave a member of your flock behind. So when it's someone's birthday, someone's in charge of getting everyone's input for the card and then someone else's is in charge of like dreaming up the layer cake that the kitchens is going to make for them. There is a beautiful, like flock mentality to IT where they are seen in love, not just because are part of an organization, but alongside the people that have chosen them in the interview process to be like, you're the one with the twinkle in your eye, you're the one I want to go into war with and you're the one that I want to celebrate when it's the day to celebrate you.

I've seen other organizations kind of stumbled onto the same thing. There's a call center, apple tree answers that literally has a dream granting committee and employees can say this is the the thing i've been dreaming of that I I can't get on my own and then that team tries to make that happen. Or yeah, I think about waning Sherry Baker having created this rest of prosy ring exercise, where griefs of people come together within and across workplaces, and they make request for things they can't get on their own but want or need, and then everybody else tries to help them. And you see even the grumpy st most selfish people light up when they realize they can make something happen that somebody else really Carried about.

Resistance is futile. And the grumpy ones are, send them to me. I'll take the grumpy ones.

listen. Some people react like, this stuff is cheesy. But what i've most often found as those that deal are just people who have built up a kind of protector shell, because maybe they wanted to be treated in a certain way and stopped trying because they never were.

But if you can break through that and be the person that does IT doesn't matter what you do for a living. You can make the choice to be in the hospitality industries simply by being as relentless and intentional and creative as unreasonable in pursuit of this stuff as you already are, whatever product you're selling. And i've seen no retirement homes and long care companies and banks and insurance companies add the position of dream waver to their teams, law offices.

This is something jane dattner I found years ago, and in a study at borders before they went on a business they had in the internal foundation that existed to try to help employees with all kinds of chAllenges that they might encounter, whether IT you paying for a kids school covering college education, what they called a life qualifying event in the family that you just could not make ends meet for.

And they thought that this foundation was all about people getting the help that they needed. What we found in our research was that people were even more moved by being able to give when they were able to solve somebody else's problem and made them feel like they mattered. And that strengthen their attachment to their colleagues and made them feel like they were part of an organization with a heart that cared. And I love the way that the two of you have sort brought this phone, sophy, out in public, because IT IT almost seems like you're a walking anted out to cynicism.

The smallest gestures for the people that you work with can have the greatest impact. Service in hospitality, or two different things. Services, things that you do. Hospital, is how you make someone feel. Someone the other day started trying to trip me up on that. This says the service or hospitality is this service or hospitality? And by the end of vent, I said, I said, let me just cut you off its hospitality if they feel seen.

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I wants to go to a lightning around now. What is the worst advice you've ever gone?

This is exactly what was gonna happen. And it's like, no, no, i'm good. I know how to game the system.

Focus on improving your weaknesses, not your strengths.

What is something you've rethought recently?

What success looks like?

What did you used to look like? And what does that look like .

that I was a lone wolf for the first ten, twelve years of milk bar and IT was me building this idea of celebrating the stygia? And just like taking a jack han in the style, gien and building package, making people feel old to new at the same time, IT was just like, IT was my entire focus. And I got met this guy.

We now have two kids. We have this hilarious dog. K name butter is just as I grow in my responsibility I S and and the things that bring me joy every single day IT just gives me a different P O V and different, different context to what success in a day looks like, how I leave the world Better than I found IT in a day. And I love that it's a little bit of a moving target but also when where i'm like, oh, i'm getting wiser but also have more questions than I having answers than I love that well.

what is your favorite .

meal for dinner? My mom's body is with tara li from a shop back in the day called bell duchies in new york.

And Christina, your favorite dessert .

half they talked to. Sounds disgusting to .

those of us who hate chocolate, but i'll try to get over .

IT when you hate chocolate.

did you Christina found this out when we you clearly miss the memo. Christina, maybe the first thing you said to me asking me my favorite desert.

it's just my favorite way to get to know and understand someone, whether it's the desert event when people are watching, or I call the desert eat when no one's watching that, like, really suits your soul, your dirty desert secret, it's, it's a moment of vulnerability to bond.

I rever only being a little embarrassed to say my favorite desert as a cotton Candy blizzard from the, you can not imagine my excitement then when the two of you texted me a picture of a cotton Candy blizz with four spools in IT.

the blazer come on like, this is magic, right? I am like someone that basically makes a thick milkshake and then holds them upside down for the kind of like three mississippi. I remember that being the most unreasonably hospitable thing that queen still does at scale.

One of the things that's been really delightful about getting to know both of you a tiny bit is you've completely redefine my sense of what that means to be a footy. Oh, my g oh, you can love food without being a snap about IT and without judging people based on their coronary preferences. I.

I could get on board with this feel. You don't actually love food. If you judge other people for the food they love, you just love some food.

What a hearts take. You have an unpopular opinion, help that you're eager to die on the fast.

And the furious franchise is one of the greatest movie franchise has ever created.

good. Like with that one.

actually, you know what I will say? This is a hot take. I love talk a bill.

We both do. Yes, talk bill is extraordinary. We love talk bill.

I'm a fan.

Yes, you're not get excited about a date night where you smug talk o bell into the movie theater and buy a dollar nature cheese at the snack bar and soda to watch fast in the furies whatever the newest movie is, you have not lived life, and that's not a real day.

You have not no love. Do you have a prediction for the future of food or hospitality?

The the best I can give us is my hope. And my hope is that we get closer to the idea that food brings us happiness. Enjoy a courier ment beyon, how we're taught to typically think about food, and that the food that moves people and makes people feel incredible, that we don't put a lens on IT that is the same who wood to shoot of things.

Hi, what's the question you have for me?

How do you engage with people with whom you completely disagree about important things?

Not as well as I should ask .

what their favorite dessert is.

That's actually a great opener. Ever rope that down earlier. That's one thing that people can help but find some common ground round. I think the most valuable thing that i've done is try to figure out what's the principle behind their stance. And I might I might have a different hierarchy of principles. But usually if we get to the very bottom of what's the value you're trying to serve here, there's a value that I respect.

Hm, what's cool? I like that.

I think that most of what i've heard from the two of you is is alignment. When I comes to hospitality, I want to know what you disagree on.

I think often times we disagree on process, and I think that that's good for us. Imagine how we live our life together atam, you know what I mean, like when we both get embed up about the same idea, it's dangerous.

Well, okay, so what does that look like?

I have this vision and will is much Better at putting IT into words and creating a system around IT. And i'm more into I have the thing, can I just bake IT into existence? Why do I have to use words and explain IT to people and and the end, but I think the hard part is that you when you two people are married to each other and there are both leaders that are super passionate about seeing something to bring me to life, is figuring out like who's going to lead and who's gonna follow can both things be true at the same time?

One of the the interesting chAllenges that you both run into is just unreasonable amounts of success. Um you both want tons of awards and you know gotten all these accolades. How do you keep your teams motivated and how do you stay motivated as opposed to resting on your layers?

If anything, I need to work on being Better, being more complacent. But I found that people who don't over extend themselves that only choose to invest their time, and not the things that will necessarily make them the most money, but the things that they will enjoy most, that they will learn the most from alongside people that they want to be surrounded by. The'd generally do pretty awesome work. And that always leads to something else to say.

Sometimes complacency .

is a dirty word, because IT should be a dirty word. And sometimes complacency seems like a dirty word. And when you try to first size, you might find something really interesting, panic, blood surface .

complacently, I think one of the best ways to open up your preferred vision.

嗯， this was so much .

fun and so interesting and thought provoking. And I feel like I barely scratched the surface of all the things I wanted to talk to the both of you about. But I guess we have to save some material for the future.

Yes, we'll see you next time. See dq.

My biggest takeaway from Christina and well is that generosity is not about putting others above yourself. It's about treating people Better than they expect and expecting nothing in return. A sign of character is consistently choosing to be kinder than necessary.

Rethinking is hosted by me, adam grant. The show is part of the ted audio collective, and this episode was produced in mixed by cosmic standard. Our producers are handy kingly mow in asia sympson our editor is alien a sales are our fact cheaper is polled derbin original music by hcl seo in an eleven laden Brown. Our team includes a lizer Smith jack up winning sia ads, recent high lash bambang change, Julia dickerson with be pending ting Rogers.

You a gift is gonna have to be a cutting Candy machine, I think because I think you can, I think you can nail the kind Candy was at home. Matam I .

ruined .

IT I ruined that me.

I'm really .

good at ruling. Surprised that haven't even come to life yet.

Good to know.

That's why he loves me.

Reason when when, when there is someone and you're trying to pursue a relationship with them and you have a good idea for a gift for them, always ready IT down and never say IT out loud until you're ready to give IT to them. P R X.