Her Flaws, My Fight w/ Dr. Jill Waggoneer and Jillian Mitchell
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What's good? It's Colleen Witt and Eating While Broke is back for season three. Brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeart Radio. We're serving up some real stories and life lessons from people like Van Lathan, DC Youngfly, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, and many more.

They're sharing the dishes that got them through their struggles and the wisdom they gained along the way. We're cooking up something special. So tune in every Thursday. Listen to Eating While Broke on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Yo, it's Big Bank. Check out my podcast, Prospective with Bank, on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Each and every Monday, Prospective with Bank podcasts will feature individuals, all walks of life, who come together to share their unique perspective and engage in enlightened conversation. This podcast will explore all types of conversations from everyday people, your favorite celebrities. Every Monday, listen to Prospective with Bank on Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple

God can't bless who you pretend to be or who you compare yourself to. He can only bless you and the lane that was created for you. I feel that for somebody. You don't need no edge entity. You need boundaries. What? I don't need your likes. I don't need your validation. All I need is a God fighting for me that says all things sing.

Child.

Am I the only one who has moments when my kids are asking me questions, whether they're the big ones or the little ones, where I just want to tell them, like, you do know I have no idea what I'm doing either. Like, we're literally trying to figure this thing out together. I think that they have in their mind that I'm some superhero who has knowledge about everything from stains to calculus. And the truth is that I'm out here trying to figure out if my wig is on the right way most days because life

is always lifing. I think part of the beauty of coming to a place where we recognize that we don't have to have all of the answers means that we get to engage in learning with our children and we also get to look at our lives and the lives of others through a lens of compassion. This week, we're talking about the hope to be open to being flawed.

letting go of this idea that we have to be perfect, we have to do everything well all of the time, and resting in the truth that we are humans on a journey doing the best we can at any given moment. Today I'm talking to two women who I have known for a mighty long time, but whose business I am getting to mind in a fresh new way. You're going to hear from Dr. Jill on the Woman Evolved podcast about how she raised her daughters, but first,

First, we're going to have an opportunity to experience her with her daughters. Dr. Jill Wagner-Jones is a dynamic voice and incredible mind who has been shaping conversations about health, wellness, and relationships for quite some time. Her daughter, Jillian Mitchell, has been a creative gift to our

family in ways that we did not even know that we needed. Together, we're going to have a conversation today about how we are embracing the realities that our mothers and our daughters are flawed and yet walking this thing called life out together.

So thank you guys for being a part of today. Well, thank you for having us. I'm really excited. Now, I have noticed that you all seem to be really like toned down right now because just before the cameras started rolling, there was a lot going on here. Yes. It was giving more friendship. What are you talking about? Well, you know, I think you was like getting on to her about things and she was reminding you to reel it in. You know, when did you all become friends?

- Ooh, you wanna go first? - Sure. I think we became friends when I went to college. - Really? - Yes. Because I remember calling home and just being like,

Mommy, let me tell you what happened today, child. Let's go. Let's dive into what's going on in my life. And I think I really realized that she had spent all this time raising me and showing me the way and really giving me all these nuggets of what needed to happen. And then when I got to college, I was out there on my own, in a sense. And I just had to stand on what she taught me. And so I was able to call and say, girl.

Listen, and I think that's where our friendship really, really developed. I agree with that. Before she went to college, I didn't consider her an adult because she wasn't. And so I was trying to be her mother, making sure I was her mother. Never had the need for my daughter to be my friend. It was bonus when we got to the point where we have become friends.

But respect was important for me and making sure that I was the person to say, "I am not your friend. I am your mother." And so, you know, when we got to that point where she was an adult and on her own, I felt that it was okay. - So how did you introduce that level of vulnerability, right? Because I think as like a mother-daughter or I'll say parent-child dynamic,

For the parent, there is a need to kind of make sure that you create that boundary so that you can continue to have respect and so that you can instill into them things that they don't necessarily see as important right now, but you know will be important down the road. And yet on the daughter's side, I feel like

I don't want to disappoint you or I don't want you to be upset with me because I'm going to do whatever I want to do in this moment. Like, how did you gain the vulnerability to say, like, I have done something that may be against what you taught me or I'm out here struggling in a way that you would maybe not expect. And I yet trust you with this part of my imperfect being. I think for me, it was so...

Typically, in the past, my mama didn't fly. Okay. And so I was in college. I went to school in Virginia. And I was that whole semester, I was in a show because I was a theater performer. So I was in a show and I was just like the whole time, Mama, I think I'm going to come home. I really want to.

I don't really want to stay here. It's too far. Like the whole semester. And she was like, no, I really think you can do it, sweet pea. Like, I'm so proud of you and you can do it. And my first show, I walk into the lobby and I see my dad. I mean, I knew he was coming. I'm like, daddy. I jump on him. He had just had surgery. And from behind him, my sister. I'm like, you're right. My Nana. I'm like Nana. And then my mom walks through the door and I'm like, mama.

And so I think in that moment, I realized that she would do anything for me and that she would do things that she never thought she could anymore. Get on a plane for me. And she made it there. And I was like, I can give her anything. I can trust her with anything because she didn't know. She didn't know, even though I didn't know that she knew I was coming home because I was too far away. Yeah.

I wasn't coming home just because I couldn't do it. I wanted to come home to be closer. She was afraid I couldn't get to her. And I sensed that it was going to change her life and the trajectory of her life if I could not get on an airplane.

And so I did everything I could to get on that airplane. And I will never, ever forget the sound that she made when I walked around that corner. The sound of sheer joy. I will never forget it. When she said it, I could hear her. Will never forget it. And it did. It opened up this thing. One, she knew she could do anything.

Two, she knew she could trust me with anything. The other thing, I knew that I could trust her with my weaknesses and my strength. I could say to her, this is really hard for me.

But I am going to do it and I will make it happen. And so it did. That opened up a real thing. You got tears. I know. I'm about ready to cry. I think it was a big deal. It was such a big deal that as we went around campus, people were like, hey, y'all Jilly's because they call her Jilly. So now they call me Jill. They call me. They were like, you're Jill. No, no.

Yeah, your mama calls her Jillian. Anyway, she said, you're Jill's parents. I mean, they knew who we were because it has so much impact on everybody. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Okay, so I think in order for people to understand how impactful that is, I think they have to understand how you feel about flying. Yeah. Because I think that's what moves me so much about it. And there is something to knowing that my mom was willing to face her fears to give me faith. Right. Yeah. Well, actually, you know, I used to be a flight attendant. Yeah.

So I was a flight attendant and then I developed, actually it's an anxiety disorder that I developed when I was in graduate school. I think it was the intense stress of graduate school and the newness of that and wanting to be perfect and all of that. I mean, I used to freak out. I remember I made an 89 one time and my friend was like, girl, get a 89.

Girl. I mean, I was depressed. And so all of that, that stress of that had really manifested itself in this anxiety disorder where I couldn't get on an airplane. So I'd been a flight attendant and then this thing happened and I couldn't get on an airplane. And it was just so overwhelming. The fear was overwhelming, but it was about control. Wow.

So I could not control it. So I had to learn how to be OK with not being in control. I mean, it's a whole journey. But I thought I have to do this. I have to be able to do this. So for me, particularly if I do something, if I fly somewhere unexpected or unexpected,

or that I didn't plan for, it's a decision that I have to make that it's gonna be okay. So she knew what that meant for me. And it was critical. - There's something to the idea of you facing this moment, getting on the plane and knowing that it would unlock her potential. Maybe you guys can help me unpack it. Like why generationally is it important

For us to see the women who are ahead of us defy their anxiety, defy their fear. What do you think that it gives us? I feel like it's the greatest gift, the greatest inheritance that any woman can leave her children are the battle scars. Right.

And the fight through fear. You have to fight through fear. That's not a cliche. It is not because there will be many places in your life that you walk into a room or a circumstance that you are afraid of.

Fear can be crippling. It can paralyze you. And so, but once you make the decision to do it, you just have to do it. And it's like come hell or high water, I am walking through this. And so I thought it was critical for her

not to let fear stop her from anything that she wanted to do. And I had to show her, her daddy couldn't show her, her nana couldn't show her, nobody else. I had to show her that it was okay. But I learned that from my grandmother and we talked a little bit about my grandmother before. My grandmother, she didn't fly, she hadn't been to college, and she would let me get on an airplane and go to Japan.

She was limited, but she kept saying, oh, you'll be okay. Oh, mama can't do that, but you can. And so she gave me that as something to stand on, and I wanted to make sure that I gave it to her and my girls, period. Wow.

Well, I think that you did give it to me. Often you told me when I was little because I was, what, in 12 when we flew to Europe for the first time. We sent her to Europe when she was 12. Without parents. Because she had to go. People to people program. And parents couldn't go. Okay. And we also went. We didn't know.

the people, the people, people. Right. You know, that was a few years ago. There wasn't a fear of me going over there and getting snatched. I think it was a little bit.

- Yes, a little bit, but not as much. - You were a little harder to snatch. - I was, I was a little harder to snatch. They made it a little easier. No, I think that even in telling me that, she did for me what Granny did for her, which is you can do anything, but I think in that moment walking it out, it just ignited a different passion. My mommy walked it out. She's not just doing what she's, she's not just telling me, she did it, and so that means I can do anything.

I think that that's what

really happened in that moment, it was like, oh, I saw her do something she's always told me. And so now I really can do anything. Have you been able to pull from that, make a withdrawal from that moment of faith since then? And can you tell us when is the time in your life where you were like, if mama got on that plane, I can do X, Y, and Z? Oh, absolutely. I think that I often go back to that moment. That

And whenever I get ready to get on stage, whenever I am introduced to something new, for instance, your mom asked me to do something for her. Just in coming to work with her, I think I was like, I'm trepidatious. I don't know if I'm good enough for this. I don't know what the need is. Like, I don't think I can. And I was like, you know what? I really can't do anything. Like, my mama got on a plane for me, Jav. I can...

go up here and put this little piece together and see what she needs, at least hear her out. You know, my mama got on a plane and came across the world to get me so I can pretty much do anything. Yeah. They say time waits for no one and neither should payday. To keep your money moving in the right direction of your dreams, get Earned In.

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spelled E-A-R-N-I-N in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earn In app, type in Woman Evolve under Podcasts. It'll really help the show. That's Woman Evolve under Podcasts when you sign up. Earn In is subject to your available earnings, daily max and pay period max.

See earnin.com slash TOS for details. Earn In is a financial technology company, not a bank. Bank products are issued by Evolve Bank and Trust member FDIC. I am noticing as my mother is entering into her full queen era that I feel a sense of responsibility in taking care of her.

It's not quite like the roles have reversed, but I am no longer exclusively on the receiving end. Now I feel a responsibility to give wisdom to her sometimes, to give encouragement and advice to her. And so I want to talk a little bit about being an adult child with an adult mother, A,

and the ways that the roles reverse because we see how they're aging, how life is changing, how they're looking at life through a lens of legacy more often than not. What is it like for you to see your mom becoming more seasoned? - Be careful!

That's all I want to say. Getting more Lawrence. Right. I think it is a wonderful experience. Just yesterday, I had to have a heart-to-heart moment with her. Like, girlfriend, listen. We need to chat. So I think that because we've developed a friendship, I am open enough to say, hey, mama, I love you. But...

let's try to do this a little differently. I see that that probably wasn't your best self. - 'Cause I'm tough. I can be really tough on people that I love.

I really was not aware. I was going to say, how did you figure that out? She told me. Really? No, she really did. As an adult, as a teenager? No, really. Whenever somebody is talking to me, and my assistant also is like one of my daughters. She's an extension.

There are certain things that trigger things in me. If somebody is talking to me about how hard something is, I try to listen. I don't want I really don't want to hear it. Like, because get it done. I don't care. She turns into like, I was Harriet Tubman, child. I've been running the railroad. But I really my motto is it's the hard that makes it special.

Okay, it's hard. And so I think the older I get, the more it comes to the surface. So I'm trying to be, you know, this kind, compassionate, and I'll be kind, compassionate for this moment. But if you're still talking about this, it's like, come on, what are we talking? Come on, get it together. And so she told me, she said, mommy, you cannot do,

You got to be better with that. You cannot, and we were talking about a parenting situation. She said, first of all, we are not the same. You cannot parent us the same. It is not okay. And so I looked at my sister and I said, do I do that? She said, yes, ma'am. Wow. Okay, how y'all gonna act? Okay, anyway. But I did reflect on it and I appreciate her being

adult enough, woman enough, confident enough that our relationship is open enough where she can say, no, you were wrong. You got to do better.

And you wasn't scared you was going to get a whooping. I couldn't be afraid in that moment. That's why I called her. Right, right, right. I really couldn't because I felt like I really needed to express it and I needed her to be open to receiving it. And I think sometimes she's more open to me to receiving it than, you know, others. And so I had to really say, OK, yeah.

Hey girl. I love you. Can you take it as hard as you give it? That's a real good question. Yeah. I, I, I probably not. Yeah. To be honest. Yeah. Because I do get wounded. I mean, my feelings get hurt. Um,

What are you doing? I need some kind of... So I think that probably not. But there's this thing that happens as you get more mature. It's like you... I've earned the right to...

- I'm triggered 'cause now you're, 'cause my father has this, I've earned the right to say what I want to say. - I've earned the right to say what I want to say. - What does that mean? - That means that for my entire life, I have muted myself, I have changed the way I presented myself because I was trying to fit into not necessarily what my family said, but what the world required of me.

And so now I am fully grown, I am grown, I am successful, I have wisdom and I am tired of you telling me what I ought to present myself as when I walk into a room.

And it's this kind of thing that comes out of you because the other thing is we are fighting for legacy, not just for our legacy, but we are fighting for your entrance in the room too. So what we are saying is I get to say what I want to say. And by the way, they do too.

So you cannot go back and put those parameters on the people that are coming behind me like you did for me. So let me, here's a thing or two that I want to say. You know, it's like when you're going out the room and you're about to drop the mic. Let me tell you, that's kind of how we feel. And it's not that we think we're not going to be here long. We just think that we have fought long enough. We have proven ourselves. And so now we ought to be able to say what we think now.

and say it unapologetically, and it gets us in trouble sometimes. - And sometimes as the oldest, I have to say, "Okay, you said your piece, I get it. But next time, can we be a little softer, a little different?" That kind of hurt our feelings. - And I don't want to hurt feelings.

I don't, but some things need to be said. The other thing that I've always done with my girls, if I tell you you did well, I am not lying to you. Not at all. Yeah, because if you don't do well, do you hear that too? Absolutely. She will never say, so I know I didn't do well. If she says, it was good, I'm like, oh. It wasn't your best, and I know what you are capable of. I am not going to be that mother in the corner. Oh, baby, you did wonderful. Oh, and you didn't.

It's either excellent. It was excellent. You nailed it. You did it. Or it was good. I don't want to crush you, but I don't want to lie to you either. The other thing is you need to know that there is one person in the world who will tell you the truth. Yeah.

At least as I see it. And so here it is. Now, I also will not give you that truth and abandon you in the consequences of it. I'm here with you. I'm going to walk you through it regardless of what it is. Now, what do we do to put our resources together so that we can help you get to that level that I know you're capable of? You may not even know, but I know what's in you.

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Okay, so there are women who have experienced tough moms and have maybe thought to themselves, I can't be vulnerable. I can't open up. I don't even know how to communicate with her because she's so hard on me. I think part of the plight of the strong black woman trope is that that strength was often lost.

up in our homes in a way that made it difficult to connect. Not everyone's testimonies, but some. So they may be watching this and they're like, I could deal with my mom being tough if I knew she had those other layers. And maybe their mom does have those other layers, but they don't know how to interpret it. They don't know how to translate that that tough is rooted in love. What do we say to them? Communication that's trite, but true. The other things I

physically show love to my daughters. I am a hug you, kiss you. If you've ever witnessed us when we see each other, if it's been a day or two, we embrace. I hug them, I stroke their hair, I kiss them, I snuggle in their necks. So I give them physical love and emotional love. So they know I'm capable of it. And I try to always have it available. And

Even if we are in the midst of something that is hard, if I see that what I am giving them is more than they are capable of communicating or capable of receiving at that time, then I stop and give them the, come here, put your head right there. That's so good. I got you. Because I think some people, it's the truth whether you like it or not. Yeah, no, no, no. As a mother, you can be...

You can be strong. You can be fierce. You can be truthful. But the mother thing is you have to know when the child needs you to mother. And that's critical. Yeah, I think. What do you think? No, I agree. I think you are literally the definition of like a gentle and a stern parent. So she's like very stern. But then she's like, OK.

"Now come here, I love you." And she's gonna talk to me and talk through it. Yeah, I think I just found in life that we just have this balance and now I'm to the point where I'm able to vocalize that that really hurt me. And this was not what I expected. I know that I was wrong in that moment, but I really need my mommy. And she has this wonderful way of saying, "Okay, do you want me to listen "or do you want me to give you feedback?"

And so I think that we've been able to communicate through those tough, even those stern layers. And as I went to counseling and therapy, I was able to say, I think this is a trigger for you. I think, so I think that... How do you feel about that? This whole counseling thing. No, counseling is a good thing. It really is. You know, but I'm from that generation that...

you think, "Well, what am I gonna pay the counselor for?" Although you know it is a good thing. So no, I get that. And she'll come back with her stuff. - Therapy's helped me a lot in communicating with my parents because I do think part of the staying in child's place, don't get out of grown folks' business,

get out of the way, be seen and not heard. It doesn't teach you how to use your voice. And then you hit adulthood and your parents are like, well, you can tell me anything, but I haven't practiced using my voice, which, yeah, I don't know how to do it. I think I was

I think I was able to practice that though. - That's big. - Yeah. - 'Cause we told y'all to be quiet. - Push. - And now we want you talking. - Yes. - And you're like, are you sure? - I don't know how. Yeah, I don't know. Like I don't even have anything to pull from in our relationship dynamic to do that. So it does, it creates anxiety for me. It creates fear. I do it anyway, you know what I mean? But I'm like, bear with me. I'm gonna probably stumble over my words because there's still that authority position that they're in.

see us as equals, but it's hard for me to fully see us as equals. It's also a lot to overcome in order for us to communicate. You are equal until we disagree with you. Right then, right. You're not that grown. Yeah, you know, oh, they're not that equal. Yeah. No, I kid. But I think I was able to practice that because...

Even growing up, we are so alike. I had to vocalize. I remember a moment when I was probably four, we were working on homework and we were going back and forth. And I was like, listen, I do not learn that way. So I need a moment. And she said, well, I need a moment too. No.

No, she was four. No, we both had a moment. Really? We were. We were going. And I learned differently than she does. And so I was giving it to her the way I do it. And she just shut down. And she said, I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. She told me at four, I don't learn that way.

- That reminds me of Ella. - Yes. - Ella's gonna say what needs to be said. - Yeah. - Okay, I have a question for you before we go. What is one thing about the way that you were mothered that you will definitely continue to mother like whenever you have children or as you are an aunt, however you decide to show up as a mother in the world?

What's one thing that you will continue and what's one thing you'll do differently? One thing I will continue is definitely her love. She's very loving. And so my mom expresses love openly. And so I plan to openly express love and just really be very affectionate because that's what I enjoy the most. One thing that I probably will not do. I love the voice change. One thing that I probably will not do.

I don't know. I really, I mean. It's okay. No, no, I'm really thinking. I don't know. I'm not going to hold it against you. What's one thing you hope she does differently? Wow. I hope that she communicates, particularly if she has daughters, that however she shows up physically is okay. I think my issues with myself physically, I often communicate it

to my daughters and in front of my daughters. And so I hope that she, as a woman, will feel good about her physical self, no matter what society says or how she's feeling about it currently. That she still will say, but I'm good and I'm beautiful and I'm all of that. So that's what I really hope she's able to do. That was a good one. That was a good one.

Okay, so before we go, we just want to give you guys a chance to honor one another and to say thank you for maybe something unexpected that your daughter or your mother doesn't even know that she deposited into your life. Mm-hmm.

Thank you for always showing me that no matter who's in the room, if they're looking for me, I'm always there. So I have to show up as my best self because I'm not competing with others. So thank you for teaching me that. Wow. I used to tell her if they're looking for Jillian, you're the only Jillian on earth. So it doesn't matter what every other person looks like in the room. You are the one.

So, wow. There are so many things that you bring. Thank you for helping me understand that the authenticity of who one is does not matter whether the people around you think that's what you should be or what you've been told you should be.

matters. The thing that matters is that you are who you are because you choose to be. So thank you for showing me that and showing up in the world as a woman who is just Jillian and okay with that. I love you. I love you too.

What's good? It's Colleen Witt and Eating While Broke is back for season three. Brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. We're serving up some real stories and life lessons from people like Van Lathan, DC Youngfly, Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, and many more.

They're sharing the dishes that got them through their struggles and the wisdom they gained along the way. We're cooking up something special, so tune in every Thursday. Listen to Eating While Broke on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Yo, it's Big Bank. Check out my podcast, Prospective with Bank, on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Each and every Monday, Prospective with Bank podcasts will feature individuals, all walks of life, who come together to share their unique perspective and engage in enlightened conversation. This podcast will explore all type of conversations from everyday people, your favorite celebrities. Every Monday, listen to Prospective with Bank on Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple

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Hi, I'm Katie Lowes. And I'm Guillermo Diaz. And we're the hosts of Unpacking the Toolbox, the Scandal Rewatch podcast where we're talking about all the best moments of the show. Mesmerizing. But also we get to hang out with all of our old Scandal friends like Bellamy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldwyn, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for an even more behind-the-scenes Scandal.

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