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My relationship with my father has always been fraught. He has been a father that has provided everything that I needed except emotional support. Often he'd have these big blow-ups over something that I did as a child that was small, usually things that warrant corrective behavior from a parent, but never anything that would make a parent yell or scream.
and speak so negatively about a child. I have struggled with those negative feelings about myself because of the things that he said to me. I have struggled with anxiety after this endless pursuit of trying to keep the peace between him and I. I've had to go to therapy. I've had to get on medication to help cope with the anxiety that I have struggled with stemming from our relationship.
Recently, my father had an affair and is divorcing my mother after being married for 30 years. And that was the only family that I had. And now that he has started a life with his affair partner, he is trying to establish a relationship with me outside of my mom.
And I'm having a hard time overcoming the past trauma and the current trauma that he is inflicting as he takes no accountability for his actions and how they impact me. Instead saying that this marriage is not any of our business as kids. I don't know how to proceed with him and I'm not quite sure if I want to. And I struggle with a great amount of guilt for not wanting to go on and have a relationship with my father.
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So I was thinking, where would you want to focus? Is it about, shall I have a relationship with him? Is it about how do I process the relationship we've had over the years? Is it about the decision or is it about an exploration of who is he to you and where are you at with him at this moment? And what can you realistically expect from him?
And then where's your mom in the picture? Because sometimes you may have your own feelings and sometimes you may have borrowed some of her feelings too. Fill me in a little bit on that. And then, you know, we'll do a heat map and you'll tell me, this is where I want to linger for a bit. Thank you. I think...
He is very adamant about trying to maintain relationships. I think... Are you an only child, by the way? I have a younger brother. Right. But my younger brother, he's only... So I'm 25 and he'll be 22. Okay.
So he's still in college and stuff, but he doesn't want anything to do with my dad at all. So they don't talk. Since the affair or since he left home? Since the affair. Yeah. So we found out about, well, my mom found out in September of last year. And that's where the divorce started. And so ever since my brother has been pretty much like very minimal contact. And then in light of
Recent events, my dad and I got into some very heated conversation in like March and he like hung up my face. We've tried to meet for dinner and I'll end up crying and having to go to the restroom. So in light of all of that, my brother just does not want to speak to my dad at all. So he has borrowed feelings from you? From me and my mom. From you and your mom. Okay. And tell me who initiated the divorce?
my dad. So that's part of the reason why my feelings of like not really wanting to move forward with him sometimes because so my mom found out in September because he was very sloppy. So I was trying to show my mom something on the computer and she found some receipts that he spent on his affair partner. But I knew something was up for a while and
And I confronted him about it about a month before my mom found out. And he lied to my face, just lied. And I didn't say anything else about it because I'm in law school. You know, school was starting up. I don't know. I guess maybe I was in denial. I just didn't want to talk about it. So I never told my mom. But when my mom found out, of course, my suspicions are correct. I had to lie to her and be like, oh, my God, I'm so surprised. I can't believe this.
When really and truly I was not surprised. So there's a lot of anger towards him for being so sloppy and lying to me after being sloppy. And even aside from my mom, it's just the dishonesty, at least for a year straight, just constant lies to cover up some of, I'm assuming, of affair and also anger.
just our relationship beforehand was not good. So it's like, I feel like a bad person because I know this is my father and especially in black American culture, like you're not supposed to talk about your relationship with your parents, like outside of the house. So I already have feelings of feeling guilty for speaking about it to you. And to a white woman, no more, no less. Yeah. And so it's like a lot of his issues are like cast aside as being a result of his environment. Um,
Very Southern family. He grew up very poor. And so a lot of people will attribute him being rough around the edges to that. But that to me shoots him so much grace. And I'm the one that's like the recipient of all of his harshness. Being in a relationship with someone who's caused me so much pain.
And then now, in light of everything that's going on, and morally, I don't agree with his decision. I think some of his behavior has been a little erratic lately. His affair partner has started to question what he gives me.
for my living expenses while I'm in law school. And so he started to question about how much money he gives me. And so I'm like, all right, now this person is starting to interfere with my wellbeing, my day-to-day life. And I'm mad at my dad for not defending me and instead listening to an affair partner when I've been his daughter for 25 years. So I guess to answer your question, maybe figuring out how to move forward. And if I want a relationship given all of this hurt
How does one even process it to try and go forward when I'm still dealing with so much anger about things that have been boiling and boiling and boiling for 20 years? Let me try and repeat to you what I just heard. Okay. Because the bigger envelope is here you are talking about your dad, right?
And it feels almost like a transgressive experience. You shouldn't be talking about your father to an outsider, let alone an outsider to the Black community. What is she going to do with all of this information? What does this say about me and about us? And I want to really respect that and stay there if we need to for a moment. Then there is
My dad has never really taken much responsibility for the ways that he often reacted. And everybody else wants to excuse him and to contextualize his behavior and to explain it away due to the circumstances of his growing up. And I have a problem with that. I understand how he grew up.
but it somehow isn't meant to excuse everything. It's not a given that poverty must lead to the kind of rough edges that he put me through. Then you're saying, in my family, we have a way of absorbing other people's feelings.
My brother experiences what I feel and what my mother feels. I experience what my brother feels and what my mother feels. We become shock absorbers for the experiences of others so that we end up feeling inside of us things that are ours and things that are not ours, but they all blend into one. And so it creates more intensity all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
And then there is the fact that my dad left my mother and he had an affair. Yeah. So then it becomes, would it have been really different if he left your mom without the affair? Is it the fact that he left your mom? Is it the fact that he fell in love with someone else? Or is it the fact that he was deceptive to the whole family? Or is it a combination of all of it? That he was deceptive. I knew that my...
parents' relationship was very rocky. I mean, in fact, the reason I started listening to your podcast was because I felt like I needed guidance on how to be in a relationship. And I did not feel comfortable with my parents giving me a lot of advice. So I knew the divorce wasn't a problem. It's the deception and the lying that really, really frustrates me. If they were to both
They left and then found someone else, got into another relationship. Of course, it's icky. Ew, my parents are dating. But this, to me, the deception is just really what I cannot stomach. That leads me to say, maybe for the one conversation that we have, we focus on what is just yours.
because you've been trying to help your brother. You've been trying to help your mother. So I'm going to try to help you. So you went to your dad and you asked him what? This was the second time. I guess I have to back up a little bit. The first time that I saw him doing something suspicious was literally the day before Mother's Day. So I knew that they were kind of already on the outs, but usually he would take me and my brother to go shopping for my mom's Mother's Day gift.
I don't know why my brother didn't come. So I went with him. And after we got our gifts and before we met up with his relatives, we went to a bar to meet up with one of my friends. So I was very happy to see one of my friends. And I was too busy talking to him. But in the corner of my eye, I see my dad taking pictures of another woman. And first of all, I thought that was creepy because it's like, why are you taking pictures of a stranger? But I didn't say anything.
And this is where I feel bad. I snuck and looked at his phone and he was talking about the woman in a group message with some of his friends. So I did confront him about that. And he first was like, well, we just joke around. We do that all the time. And I told him, I was like, well, that's
She looked about my age. You're my dad. You're supposed to have a certain respect for women. You're taking a picture of her and talking about her clothes and stuff. What if I were to be out and about like that? And some man did that to me. And he immediately started talking about why I would be dressed like that. And that would be bringing unwanted attention. So I just dropped it. That was the first time. And the second time, he was coming to visit me to help get me ready for the school year.
He was texting someone the entire time. Like he was fairly present, constantly on his phone. I was able to see the username and see who the woman was. I assumed maybe it was a classmate. I don't know. I didn't want to get into it. I just wanted to really just stay out of it. But later that day, it was late at night and he was still texting this person.
And so I asked him like, oh, you know, who are you talking to? Like, what's going on? And he was like, oh, nothing. It's just something I've been seeing on Instagram. So I knew he lied to me again. It's to the point now where wherever I talk to him, if I ask him a question and if I don't get a definitive yes, then I know he's lying about whatever it is that he's saying. And this is new or this has been there and you are way more aware of it now?
It's been there and I'm aware of it now. I've always been inquisitive and just, I don't want to say like a super smart child, but just, you know, someone who wanted to reason through things. You can take the compliment. So, but always wanting to reason through things. And so whenever he'd tell me to do something, I would ask, well, why? You know, typical kids. And that's when he would snap at me or just shut down any of my questions about something that he would say.
And that's kind of what started everything. I knew that he was a drinker. So as a little kid, I'd ask, well, dad, like, why are you sending me to get more beer? Are you sure you're okay? Like, maybe you shouldn't. Nope. He snaps at me. I'm not, I'm staying out of a child's place. I'm talking back. I'm being disrespectful. And so most of the time when I knew something was afoot, I would just not say anything because they'll be deemed disrespectful. And then I would get screamed at or whatever it was. And so now that I'm old enough,
And I can communicate and I can reason through things much better than a 10-year-old or 13-year-old. It's just like, okay, now you can't say it's disrespectful because it's not. No, you're just lying. And I am not taking it well because I know it's a lie. The more he fibs and the more he alludes to things and the less definitive he is in his answers...
And the more inquisitive you have become, it's kind of an irony that the thing that you like the least has actually been one of the ways that you have strengthened your determination, your curiosity, your discernment, and your inquisitiveness. Sometimes when I think, you know, what are some of the resources that we take from our family?
It's easy to think about the positive things we received and therefore then to say, those are my resources. But our resources also draw from the negative experiences that we had, the challenging experiences. Because then you're not going to think, for me to maintain my relationship with my dad, I need to be able to believe him.
No, for you to maintain your relationship with your dad, you need a realistic sense of the man with his good sides and his flaws. And you will be able to say, my dad is somebody, one thing I don't try to do is to think that he's telling me the truth. I actually expect my dad not to tell me the truth and for me to become a very good truth seeker. Yeah. I mean, that was never assigned to me as a positive thing. Yeah.
Whenever I would do those things with him, he would call me difficult or just like my mom. I mean, he would react to me just like he did my mom. When you hear his voice, what do you hear him say? He would say, I'm difficult. That was his favorite word. And that I'm impossible to communicate with. A lot of times I think... Take a moment. Take a moment.
And because of how much you care about him, you began to wonder, is there truth to that? I mean, it didn't help being a Black girl. That's all we're told, is that we don't know how to be quiet. We don't know how to listen or let people tell us what to do. It's always a fight with us. So to hear that outside of home, to hear it at home, I mean, it's devastating for years. I would come home and just...
Just cry and cry and cry. It felt like there was nowhere to be safe as a black girl. You always had to be something else or make peace or be meek or stop questioning things or trying to figure things out because otherwise we'd just be labeled as difficult or bitter, whatever it was. And so it was just...
It's devastating to see that online, here at school, and then come home and the person that is my dad... Saying the same thing. ...telling me this. If he's telling me this, it has to be true. And what would mom say? So whenever he and I would get into it, my mom would try not to say anything because he would get angry with her and say that she's teaming up against him and taking my side. Is his lover black too? No.
She is, but there's another element of that. So my father's family, they're from Louisiana, so they're Creole. Very racially ambiguous. They don't have typical Black features. So he, being one of the kids who did present as Black, presented that, and his family treated him differently. So this person that he's with now is lighter than my mom, has curly hair, and
And more along the lines of what his family would be receptive to and what they would want a man like him to have. My mom is a darker skinned black woman, so...
And one of the things that, of course, would frustrate me and would cause fights whenever I would complain to him about his family and their colorist prejudice comments. And like, how would we feel? Like my mom, especially my brother, darker skinned black people having to hear these things. He would get mad at me and say I'm judgmental. All I do is judge his family and more negative comments about me. Were you able to find justice?
other people in your life who could represent a different story than the one he was feeding you? My grandpa. Okay. Tell me about him. My mom's side. He is like... He worships you. Yeah. And of course, I know that I'm not perfect and he knows that, but he has always been like the father figure that
I always dreamt of having. He calls me at least once a week, every day to check on me, make sure I'm okay. He was that person who praised all of those things about me rather than, you know, put them down. And which one is louder? I think my dad's has been louder, especially since he's echoing a lot of what we hear in society. Right.
So I guess my brain in sort of a defensive way has been like, you might as well get used to this, that, you know, being your truth because that's how the world is going to perceive you. My grandpa has been kind of like a safe harbor mentally and physically. And it's just like, it makes me so angry that I don't have that with my own dad. And I don't know if I ever will be able to have that or even if I want it with him.
But I will tell you that to have your grandpa, to have someone else, when we don't get to hear certain things from our parents, to have a friend, a neighbor, an auntie, a grandpa, is one of the most important emotional assets in one's life. And see, my dad resents me and my grandpa for that. Yeah, okay. And it's like, why does he... If it's not him...
Being my everything, it's a problem. And it's like he's not creating an environment for me to want that with him. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
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I think one of the most challenging questions that we get to ask as a child, and I just wrote something very similar about my own mother actually, is how long and how much do we continue to hope for them to be different? Because as long as you keep hoping and expecting, you also imagine that they have it in them and they're just stubbornly not wanting to be different.
versus this very symbolic act of becoming mature, which is to realize their limitations and to be realistic about what they will and will not be able to be with us and for us at this moment. This may always change, but at this moment, your dad's view of you
is not that different from your dad's view of women, is not that different from your dad's view of black women, is not that different of your dad's view of his wife until now or ex-wife. It's not even like you were chosen. My question to you is when you know a little bit about him, what helps you understand how he came to think the way he does? Because sometimes it helps to switch the questions from why are you doing this to me
to what happened to you. And just so we are very clear, none of this is a requisite for you to forgive him, to accept it, to change anything yet. Yeah. So there's a part of you that also knows there's only as much as I can take him on or I don't want him to cut me off financially. So I have to be thoughtful, true to myself and strategic. Hmm.
I tend to not think that cutting off in many circumstances is the best way. It takes a tremendous amount of energy not to talk to someone that one is close to. Sometimes more psychic energy goes into being cut off than in actually having a more disengaged relationship. The only thing that I can think of as to why he would do these things is he has a younger sister, but they're only like 18 months apart.
He is about my color, a little bit lighter and has kinkier textured hair, whereas his sister, very light skinned, very straight hair. And so he claims that he was treated worse because he looked more like his African-American father, whereas his sister looked more like his Creole family. And so he would recount different instances where they would be different.
harbor some anti-Black feelings and that manifested in treating him worse, like not wanting to do his hair or making fun of his hair because it was kinky. And that side of the family also has rampant sexual abuse. So being a victim of that also contributes to some of the insecurities and just general hostility, I guess. And while I understand those things are painful, I
And I agree they're all wrong. It frustrates me because instead of overcoming those feelings and protecting his wife, his daughter, his son from that family's prejudice, he just says that's how they are. You can't change them. So that's why for me it's been hard to say, I know this is why you treat me and my mom this way, but it's hard for me to stomach it because I
You know how bad that feels. Yet instead of defend your daughter, and at the time your wife, you're defending your family who exacts that same prejudice onto you. What would he say to that? His biggest go-to in those conversations was that I'm judgmental and I'm judging people and I...
don't like his family and how is he supposed to feel when I'm talking negatively about his family as if I am not his family. So I have, how would I put this, like what right do I have, what entrance do I have to speak about this with you when this is not my experience? So I need your permission. Of course, yes, of course. Right?
I'm thinking out loud. I'm fishing with a broad net. And there's a lot of gaps. And if it doesn't feel right, you just say, nah, that's not it. Your dad was rejected by his family and was made to feel lesser, specifically around color and everything that came with that. On some level, he's in a loyalty bind. So he ends up defending the very people who hurt him. And you would like him to admit that, right?
But sometimes we defend the people who hurt us because if we don't, it's as if we justify why they needed to hurt us. So when you are trying to say to him, why don't you see what they did to you? And now you're doing the same thing to us. There's a block sometimes where if I have to admit that, it actually makes me feel worse.
Remember, none of this is meant for you to necessarily forgive him or accept it, but it gives you a framework. When he says to you, you are judgmental, he is basically saying to you, you don't have the right to judge my family when I myself did not give myself the permission to judge them. You are owning my anger towards my family, which I myself have not known how to express.
And so it feels like you are inhabiting my experience. This is another one of these absorbing. And on some level, he needs to be able to say this to and about his family rather than you. But the more you say it and the less he will, the more you express it, the more he will present his loyalty.
the more he will defend the very people that he doesn't want to defend. But since you're the one attacking them, he'll defend them. That's the triangle. So instead of how can you do this, it's what was done to you. Tell me more. I understand that your sister this and your dad. Tell me more. And you become...
a good lawyer with your dad, an inquisitive lawyer that asks him questions and doesn't tell him how he should feel about it so that he can get to feel about it. That makes sense. I think my fear is that will he ever want to get to that point where he feels like it's okay to feel what he feels and to acknowledge how hurtful it was for me?
I don't know either. You know, many people grow up saying, I will never say or do what my dad or what my mom did to me. And then they find themselves saying and doing that exact same thing. It's very hard for them sometimes to acknowledge it.
because it's attached with a lot of shame. Here is the very thing I promised never to, and here I am. That person lives inside of me who I thought I would basically push away as far as I could, and yet they're inside of me. What do I do with that part of me? Sometimes we learn to acknowledge it and we say that part lives inside of me, and so do other parts. And sometimes we deny it.
If he doesn't, the challenge for you will be to admit it as another limitation. My dad did what he could with what he had. You can't change what he did to you, but you can decide what you want to do with it henceforward.
And you don't have to decide this in one time. This is not like you sit down and you, you know. But it led you to read. It led you to try to understand. It led you to understand nuances of racism inside Black families and colorism inside Black families and not just from the outside in. It led you to understand how we internalize this. And it led you to
understand how one way that men who are disempowered respond by putting the women down. For sure. And over time, because you're 25 and you are not supposed to be resolving all of this now, you'll
on occasion, have a different conversation. But the conversation won't start from a place of, why don't you see what I see? You will learn to trust what you see, and then you will sometimes think, I see it, he doesn't. Yeah. And those two coexist. Yeah. I don't think I've even considered any of this in that way, because...
I think my problem is getting caught up on what should be instead of what is. You just said it very well. Yeah. I don't expect that to be that different at this stage for you. But slowly, yes, you begin to respond to what is.
You also begin to see, you know, like you started and you said, he was there for me financially. He's been providing for me materially. Emotionally, it's a whole different story. And I thought we can take this as a kind of, therefore it isn't really important. Or we can ask, you know, given how poor he was, being able to provide for you materially must mean a ton for him. That's all of it for him. Okay. So in his reality...
You know, when you're hungry, you're not always asking yourself, how do I feel? You ask yourself, when will I eat next? Yeah. So the emotional education of your dad, I'm not sure that there was much attention paid to that. Not at all. Right. So there is a lot of emotion in his material providing. Mm-hmm.
You've separated emotional support from material providing. But I have a sense, or at least I'm asking myself, that for him to provide financially is deeply emotional. I think so. I mean, he doesn't, even before the divorce, as long as the bills were paid, we're fine. Or as long as we had everything materially that we needed, we should be fine. But...
I'm an anxious person, so I've struggled with anxiety and being in law school makes it even worse. And then already dealing with my self-esteem issues and
Things like that from childhood, while in law school, when you're graded on a curve. You know, it's all about who's the best. And if you're not the best, you're not going to get these jobs. So the whole, it's been my worst nightmare. And he doesn't call and check up on me or my mental health. What does he understand of your reality? Nothing. Nothing.
Okay. Did he, I mean, but I'm saying this with empathy for him. I'm not saying this critically. Seriously, what is school something he has experienced? Not graduate school. Okay. Is being, you know, you're talking about a system, right? I mean, in this system, many of the people who are in class with you are struggling with the same anxieties. Yeah.
And then additional realities and race and gender and age and everything added. But it's not an anxiety-free system. So what does he know about this? Did he ever allow himself to be anxious? No, he drinks when he's anxious. Yeah, a lot. So you're asking something. It's like, go to your grandpa for that.
Go to those who can give it to you. Go to those who know it. I would feel so much better doing that if he didn't blame me for that. For going to your grandpa? Yeah. But you're telling him that grandpa is able to say things to you that he can't do.
Yeah. You've basically pinned them against each other in a competitive way. You've already told him, you're not a very good dad. You have zero idea about emotional intelligence. And look at what grandpa is able to do. Yeah. You put him in his place. So, you know, of course, and then he feels unappreciated. And he feels that with all what he does for you,
You are all the time judgmental and critical and unappreciative of him. Yeah. And he's not utterly mistaken. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince.
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It's not money here, feelings there, material here, mental health there. And once you make that bridge, things will come together better. So when he says you go, what does it give me a line? Oh, yeah. I'm not appreciative of all the support that he does give me, but I always say what other people do for me. That's right. And you typically answer what?
I will say that's not true. I try. Yeah. Yeah. So let's change the script now in light of what we just said. What would you answer? I think I would definitely try to make the bridge of saying I understand that what you provided for me financially was your way of being there. Is, is. Is his way of being there for me emotionally as well. And I'm very grateful for that.
I think this is where I mess up because I'm like, but I needed. No, but. Okay. I needed more than that. Correct. Do I tell him that? No, not yet. And not in the same sentence. Okay. Not in the same sentence. Because what I'm saying to you is that he needed more as well. And I wanted to give him more. So if you say that to him, you will.
I mean, it's ironic because you're telling me how much your dad lacked empathy and understanding of you. And I'm kind of saying to you, yes, and so have you of him. That's the tragedy. There's a tragedy of the family. There's a tragedy of his family, of race in the family. But in effect, what you feel toward him, he feels from you. I can see that. And if one day you can just simply say, I know how important that is for you.
and how proud you must feel that you've been able to do this. Then we will see how he is able to start to come toward you. It's hard. Admittedly, it is hard for me. I know that I have not extended the best or the most empathy towards him, but some of that is just from me feeling like for years I've intentionally disconnected to try and lessen the pain
that he would inflict. And that was my way of doing it. And I am suggesting that if you are able to look at him as a person, not only as a dad, you will actually inflict less pain on you because you will begin to hear him differently. If you do to him what you want him to do to you,
you will develop a relationship that has more boundaries, where you are less affected by everything he says, because you can choose how you want to relate to him and not only be reactive. That makes sense. There is complete understanding for why you are where you are.
And I imagine that part of why we're talking is because you're saying to me, is there another way I can do this? I'm familiar with how I feel. I'm familiar with our strife. I'm familiar with the disconnect, but yet he creeps under my skin. And I end up believing, even though I fight him overtly, internally, I've kind of internalized what he said about me, the same way that he internalized what his family said about him. So now I want to liberate myself from this a little bit.
And one way is that in an ironic way, in a twist, you know, if you are more compassionate and understanding of him, you will experience his barbs very differently. They won't reach you the same way because you will have a different experience of the source. I get it now. Yeah. And if you one day just simply say, you must be so proud of how you've been able to do something that you never had.
And just leave it at that. Watch his throat, watch to see the corner of his eyes. Because I'm not sure that many people have ever told him in his life, you did well. That doesn't mean that he didn't do not well on a bunch of other things. That makes sense. But you have that power of being able to tell him, on this one, I know you did well. And it means a lot to you. And it means a lot to me too. Without the, but I needed something else. He knows that.
I promise you he knows that. You've told it to him and he knows that he doesn't have it. But you want to break the cycle. And you can't take on all of society, but you can take on your dad. I think I just want to get to a place where I can let some of the anger go. I always felt a sense of resentment or emptiness. That's why I sought it elsewhere.
The difference between him and my grandpa, it was stark. And it hurt for a very long time, feeling like there was always something wrong with me. And I can't connect with him, and it seems like he won't connect with me. I always felt like I was just some sort of collateral damage, I guess, of him.
Him not getting help for what happened when he was growing up or now with the divorce, I especially feel like collateral damage. And I really have always just wanted to feel loved by my dad, but it just feels like nothing was enough. Right.
Did everything a kid is supposed to do. I never got in trouble. Graduated at the top of my class. I'm in law school on a full ride. Like I've done everything that you're supposed to do, quote unquote. And it's still not enough. And do you hear both of you saying the same thing to each other? See, there are times when I hear what you're telling me and I think there is on the other side somebody who really doesn't have it.
They're not attached to their kid. There's very little connection. But there are times when I hear it like I do with you, and I'm thinking, these two people are longing for the same thing. And they're stuck. Each one says to the other, you're not accepting me. You're not appreciating me. I've done everything. They're like on a parallel track. And we have to break that knot. We have to loosen it up. And whoever can start should be the one to do it.
And start from a place not of what the other one has done wrong, but from a place of what you appreciate that the other one has been there for. And then you let it sit. You don't expect immediately from him to say the same thing to you. He may, but you don't let it happen if he does. But just break the expect, do the opposite of what he expects from you. As I was saying sometimes that if you want to change the other person,
Start by changing yourself. Since each of you is reactive to the other, if one of you finally breaks the spell, it may open up the possibility for something new to develop. And then please write to me and tell me what happened. Thank you. You're most welcome. So much. Definitely helped me in more ways than I can express myself.
This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
If you've been enjoying this podcast, here's a look into what else is happening at New York Magazine. I'm Corey Sika. I'm an editor at New York Magazine. I'm talking with Madeline Leung-Coleman. She's written for us about how we treat animals at the end of their lives, about the most difficult decisions that none of us ever want to make. And the big question we have is, who is this medical care for? Is it for them or is it sometimes for us? Hi, Madeline. Hi, Corey. Hi.
I'm really scared to talk about this topic on air because I don't want to start crying. That is the big hazard here for both of us. We'll get very upset. As most people in America, we have had pets die and pets come and go and it's tough. It's true. And not only had them die but had to make the decision about when they died. You said that vets – a vet said to you like nine times out of ten people have waited too long.
Yes, she says of the euthanasia cases that she sees, nine times out of ten, it's someone who's waited too long versus people who are bringing a pet in to be euthanized who she doesn't think would be.
The phrase you bring up is a phrase we've all heard, which is the phrase, you'll know when. But we clearly do not know when, and both of us have not known when in our lives. Like, how should people who are struggling with this, like, know when? There are actually some checklists that you can find online that basically help you evaluate your animal's quality of life. But ultimately, the only thing that actually prepares you to make the decision is having been through it before. Right.
You were calling vets and pet owners and asking them about animal death and end of life and all this terrible stuff. What was the one thing you heard that surprised you? The person I talked to who used to work at a shelter found that when people would bring their dogs in to be euthanized, people who really loved their dogs but just couldn't afford to treat them or just need to put them down for whatever reason, they would all bring their dogs the same last meal.
A McDonald's cheeseburger. You are kidding me. What? Every single person, she said, basically would bring in a McDonald's cheeseburger for their dogs to eat. I'm kind of upset. They can have chicken bones finally. Which is what they all want to eat. That's all they want to eat is chicken bones. Let them have them. That's Madeline Leung Coleman and you can find her story on animals, ethics, and death in our print magazine in your own home, which you should subscribe to and receive there or at nymag.com.
backslash lineup. That's nymag.com slash lineup.