Esther Calling - I Crossed a Line I Never Thought I Would Cross
32:20 Share

So how can I tell the person that I'm with that I always said I wouldn't have an affair, that I had an affair, and then expect her to stay with me or forgive me if I can't even forgive myself? Do you have something that you have done for which you are stuck, that you can't come to terms with how you see yourself and how you acted? Where the gap between your self-image and your behavior feels irreconcilable?

It sometimes is an affair for some people and other things for others.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.

The question is, I had an affair while I was with my ex of 10 years, and I guess I'm really stuck. My question is, how do I possibly forgive myself except to move on? It is four years on. How do I move on from all the what-ifs? What if I didn't have an affair, but we'd still be together? How do I make peace with the fact that my ex is with the person that I had the affair with? Oh, the plot thickens.

Tell me more. Clarify it a little bit for me, please. So it was a mutual friend, all friends. And like any relationship, there's easy and hard times. The hard times was really, really hard. And this friend became my soundboard, became the person I spoke to.

And we just became closer and closer. And this friend then became an emotional flirt, I guess, flirt friend. And over a couple of years, it just became more serious. I then left my ex and this friend that was interested and, you know, alluded to possibilities just disappeared. And it was just distance, no contact. And then suddenly she spent more time with my ex.

befriended my ex more in this mutual friendship and then they got together and she told my ex the affair she's the person who revealed the affair and it's a hard one because we always agreed I said to her that I wouldn't tell my ex because for me personally telling someone would just cause devastation unless you want to stay together and work on it and she agreed but then she told her

Have you ever had a chance to speak with your ex about, yes, or? No. She controls the narrative. Yeah, she was not interested. My ex said that it would probably just cause her more hurt. Okay. All right. So let me see if I have all the pieces and tell me which is the one that you feel most stuck around, right? You're 10 years in a relationship.

There is an affair primarily defined by you as an emotional affair, but it elicits in you the longing for a different relationship. You leave your partner.

You hope to establish yourself with the new person, but she disappears and she actually becomes the partner of your ex. So you have the story of what happened in your primary relationship. You have the fact that you have the affair. You have the fact that the relationship ended and

You have the fact that you wonder what would be if it hadn't ended or if you hadn't had the affair. And you have the fact that the affair ends up being revealed to your ex by your lover who became your ex's steady partner. Yes, that's correct. Which is the one that keeps you up the most at night? Regrets. For? For having the affair. Okay. Okay.

Because how can I tell the person that I'm with that I always said I wouldn't have an affair, that I had an affair, and then expect her to stay with me or forgive me if I can't even forgive myself? And what you can't forgive is the transgression, the lying, the betrayal, the attraction, the secrecy, the duplicity. Which piece of it? Secrecy and the lying. Tell me more.

It's the type of person I never thought I would be or could be. If I reflect on my life, I've always judged people for having an affair. How could they? So disgusting. I would never. And then I did. And when you were in it, how did you square it with yourself?

I think it's more, and it's so hard to explain, I think it's more that I never thought I would leave her. I really loved her. And then I really loved this other person. And even at one point I thought, God, an open relationship would be the solution to everything. Because I have one person that fulfills all these needs and then another that fulfills others. How did they divide? What was the division about? Intimacy.

My ex didn't really want to be intimate with me anymore. And she didn't see me in an attractive light. And that was openly discussed before you wanted an open relationship? Did you have an open conversation? She said she found me less attractive because I often asked to be intimate. She didn't find that attractive. So there was always a reason for why it was lacking. Can I ask you something?

Of course. Do you have a feeling that your lover schemed all along? A few people have asked me that question. Okay. I'm not original. I don't think so. I honestly don't think so because that would mean, in my mind, that would mean she's a terrible person. And regardless of it all, I think they're both really good people. Good. So the big...

hook is when you keep saying you're a bad person how could you do such a thing this is beyond repair you forever you need to live with the stain and you are no longer a person redeemable and permitted to have a future i guess in my mind if it was forgivable then wouldn't the ex forgive me and we'd still be friends she forgave the person the other person

But she can't talk to me, I guess. But is it she who has to forgive you or is it you who can't live with yourself and reconcile these opposing parts? It's mostly me. Okay. What would forgiveness look like or what would responsibility look like? What would it take to turn shame into guilt? I feel guilty. I feel shameful. Okay.

I think I feel everything. Forgiveness would probably look like that I don't think about it so much that it comes up all the time. But a lot of people are like, it's four years, move on. Are you able to compassionately understand why you crossed a line that you never thought you could cross? I think that that is one of the questions that a lot of people ask.

who have transgressions are faced with. Especially when before that they think, this would never be me, I could never do such a thing. But then when they do it, the question is, what propelled them? It's not like this was a regular habit. There was something, and it's often a confluence of a few things, that made it happen then and there, that helps them understand where they were at then.

Because you judge yourself with where you are at today. So even when you say, I felt rejected, my partner didn't want to be intimate with me, she pegged me as needy, she was pushing me away, and you just kind of factually recount it. I don't know if that's the only thing, but that is often one of the things that people carry with them. And sometimes they even rationalize and justify it. It can't hurt them since they don't want me anyway.

Did you ever ask yourself, what pushed me to cross a line that I never thought I would cross, where I would find myself in a situation where my values clashed with my behaviors? I did. I've had a lot of reflection. I guess we had very different attachment styles of how we deal with conflict. My way of dealing with conflict was to talk it through immediately, to fix things, versus her...

way of dealing with things was taking space that could be an hour a day and so that was really hard and in all fairness I never gave her the space because the more she took time the more stressed and anxious I felt and so her way of pushing me away even further was to say things and perhaps not very kind things meaning

I don't want to be with you or I find you unattractive. And to me and how I grew up, words mean more than actions. So if you said to me, I think you're ugly, that would probably stay stuck in my head forever, even if you were angry. So more and more the words just, I guess, accumulated in my head. And I think in some ways when I had the fear, I was like, well, I want to hurt you back as much as you're hurting me.

Even though I didn't want her to find out, it's so strange. No, because once she would find out, you would lose the power of the sting. But when you have another person, when you have a third person entering the system, the anxiety goes away. The power of her hurt diminishes.

because you have another person who is appreciating you, desiring you, approving of you, admiring of you, adoring you, wanting your company all the time. And so it offsets the refusals and the rejections and the coldness and the distance and the anxiety that follows about her distance. All of that gets suddenly taken care of, so to speak.

That is very correct. It's not about telling her or not telling her. It's the fact that you can soothe yourself. You can diminish the hurt. You can weaken her power over you. You can close the gap that you feel when she takes distance and she takes space because she needs that. That's the way she resolves things or at least calms herself down.

I think that when you try to understand why you did certain things, it's always important to know the meaning of the affair. What did it come to do? Why did it exist? What was its function in the relationship? It wasn't just I found somebody who desired me and I loved that after I had been so rejected. It's I found someone who basically...

was like an intervention on all the cracks in my relationship. There were a lot of cracks. I mean, I think it's mostly how we functioned, how we thought. I did feel inferior in many ways. You know, I loved her job. Loved hearing about her job. She was so passionate. She got bored when I talked about my job. You know, so reflecting on what you're saying, there's just lots of little things that probably became one, you know,

big ball of things. And you are not somebody who would have left. No, no. But in fact, you were trying to leave. Not that you were trying to leave the relationship per se, but you were trying to leave the structure of the relationship and where that put you. And a third, a lover, often helps us offset the structure of our relationship, of our primary relationship. And when you leave

I messed up. I messed my life. I lost my partner. Here I am. I'm constantly berating myself. I think it's important for you that the part of you that couldn't leave because you are too anxious to make that decision. And instead of saying, I don't want you, you find yourself always in the position of why don't you want me? These two parts were already in conversation back then. Yes.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one platform that you can use to build a website and help people find your ventures. Whether you're seeking a location for your podcast, teaching language courses or selling handcrafted ceramics, Squarespace has all the tools you need to create a home on the web. You can create a polished, professional place that connects people with whatever you are excited about.

Squarespace also supports all forms of connecting with those people. Whether you're selling products online or in person, or offering memberships, you can make your website look exactly how you want it to be. They even have tools that help you create a custom logo. And they make it easy to create a place where people can schedule an appointment with you, browse your services, or learn more about why you do what you do.

Visit squarespace.com slash Esther for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code Esther to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. Vitamin Water was born in New York City because New Yorkers needed a drink that can do it all. Because we can do it all. Like walk 30 blocks in under an hour, follow four of the city's sports teams at once, and spend all day in the Chinatown arcade. Drink Vitamin Water. It's from New York.

And then what happened? You actually did leave? Or how did you dismantle the knot? First year, I guess it was just secret texting. My ex knew we were friends, but not the extent to which we were talking, which was pretty much nonstop. And then the second year became this flirtatious relationship.

emotional fear via text. And about a month before I broke up with her, I got physical, bit of fool around, but regardless at that point, I was already in a fear. And I just couldn't live with myself. I think if that didn't happen, I would have stayed and continued having this emotional fear. This person I had in a fear with just kept saying I'd never leave my ex.

I felt at that point I created the situation where I was stuck. I loved my ex, didn't want to leave her, consciously in my mind, even though I was having an affair. And then I had this friend that I had an affair with that I didn't want to think I was using her, because in my mind I wasn't using her. Can I ask you something? What is an emotional affair for you?

Emotional affairs to me is talking to someone else more than my partner about our problems that I yearn more to hear how someone else's day was than I am interested in my partner's comings and goings. To me, an emotional affair is when I shift more of my heart to someone else. And that was because you found a better listener?

Because you found someone who was more interested in you? Because she was not bored with your job? Because... I found my ex the way she was 10 years ago in this friend. At the start of our relationship, my ex was super interested in everything I had to say. So much patience and love. Then it kind of disappeared.

But then this person was everything she used to be. And did that make you go home and say, I want more between us? Or did that make you say, well, I don't have it at home, but at least I found it? The second one. Which I think is part of the big regrets I'm struggling with because I keep going, what if I wasn't on my phone 24-7 to this other person? Maybe we still would have broken up.

But maybe we would still be friends. Maybe we wouldn't have been. But it's like I muddied the waters by having an affair. Do you feel like before you can forgive yourself, you need to punish yourself? You need to pay your dues? You need to make amends? What do you feel is needed for you to say, I think I messed up, but it didn't come out of nowhere either. And no, it's not the way I imagined the denouement would take place.

And I feel very bad. But there's parts of me that actually do wonder, how would this thing have continued between me and the lover and between me and my partner? In a way, you left because you felt that you didn't feel like you could be honest. And the only honesty that you had was to keep the secret and go away with the secret. And then you got betrayed by your lover.

And so the target keeps moving and you feel like I left my partner for you and then you left me for my partner. And then you even took the story with you. And now you own the story too on top of it.

I don't know what the answer is. You don't have to have the answer. Do you have that as a question? Does that doubt exist with you? Okay. Yep. Okay, because you're not going to have straightforward answers, but you may need to introduce some doubts rather than these very stark statements that you make to yourself all the time.

What you will learn is how to continue to feel somewhat guilty and some responsibility over your own actions in the relationship, not over what your partner didn't do. You created the relationship together. One person had an affair, but two people created the relationship. And it will coexist with, and then life continued. And I met other people.

And I built something new. And I kept very close in mind what I needed to be careful of. And we live with license, with regret, with guilt, and with permission. They live side by side. And at some point, you can write a letter. Have you ever written a letter to your ex? Many. Many. And does she ever answer?

When I say write letter, I've written a million letters without sending it. Without sending them. So you may want to one day write one, but you're not going to go and, you know, what you would like is for her to be your friend so that she can absolve you. And maybe this is not about absolutions. Maybe this is about living with the responsibility of your actions without crucifying yourself because of it. That would be good. Yeah.

You understand, you have things that you regret having done, but that doesn't mean you don't have the permission to breathe anymore or to enjoy or to laugh or to fall in love or to be loved. That makes sense. We carry all kinds of things in our suitcases. So it's not about making light of this. It's about understanding it. And it's about owning the messiness of it, living with the consequences of your actions, having regrets for some pieces of it, but not the whole story.

And then taking that along as part of the things that you want to really be aware of, closely attentive to as you continue your life with other people. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince.

I have the privilege to travel quite often, both for work and for leisure. And as a seasoned traveler, I know that the secret to stress-free travel is to pack smart and bring versatile, stylish clothing that works in just about any setting. And if you're looking for vacation essentials, you may want to try Queen's as well.

Quinn's offers luxury clothing essentials at reasonable prices. By partnering directly with top factories, Quinn's cuts the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to the consumers. I just ordered a suitcase from Quinn's that I can't wait to take with me this summer. It's lightweight and easy to drag around. Pack your bags with high-quality essentials from Quinn's. Go to quinn's.com slash Perel for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash Perel to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash Perel. Over the last four years, I've consciously, you know, reflected on what do I want of another relationship? But more, what do I want out of me? I think that was a big part of, I didn't even know what made me happy, made me happy.

So I guess there's lots of positives out of... Give me a few. What are some of the ones that you came up with? Good boundaries. Like someone else is not there to complete me. If they're unhappy, it doesn't mean I'm unhappy. If they're happy, it doesn't mean I'm happy because that's how I've always lived. As long as I can make someone else happy, then I'm happy. My partner is there to complement me, not completely, you know. And...

Have you met people and have you met potential partners and sabotaged it in the last four years? Yes. As in, you don't know who you're dealing with. I'm a mess. I don't deserve this. I destroy things on my way. Yes. I destroy things on my way. Do you carry a sign around your neck? No.

No, I just tell them, you know. And then I get scared when people get too close and I push them away. You get scared that? You know, I might get into another situation of caring so much about someone. Okay, but that has nothing to do with cheating. No. You understand? You've got to separate the pieces a little bit. Your fear that when you get attached to someone, you lose yourself.

they become the marker of everything. And when they bestow all their attention on you, you're in heaven and you're in bliss and all goes great. But when they start to not do so, or when they start to react to your demand for this kind of attention, as your ex seems to have done, then you go restless, you feel anxious, you don't know who you are when they are not shining a light on you.

That's the piece that needs to mature and that wants to be examined because that's the piece that determines more who you have been in your relationships rather than how you have reacted when you didn't like who you were in the relationship. You've put all the focus on the affair and the cheating, which is important, but it was in big part a reaction to

It was trying to undo something that you were experiencing. It was a response to something. And that something is what you describe as, I'm afraid that if I get attached in a certain way, I lose my boundaries. And so now in your next relationships, it's about that. Absolutely. You've put all your attention on the way you cheated and you didn't put enough of your attention on the way you loved or sought love. I know.

Am I saying anything new or am I reinforcing things you somewhat know but don't really like to? No, you're reinforcing. I mean, like I said, the last four years have been, I've changed more as a person for the better and in terms of understanding myself and what I want in my entire life of 44 years. But then I'm always like trapped back into that's great, but it came at a massive loss.

Yes, I got involved in attending to my wounds rather than attending to the way that I had adapted to the wounds of my childhood. And now I know that my focus really needs to be on my own attachment style, on my own ways of loving, on my own ways of being in an intimate relationship with a partner.

Because in some way, if I keep focusing only on the affairs, I'm missing a big piece of my own story. I understand. Thank you. I want to leave you with that because you spent four years very diligently thinking about a lot of things. And I think that a piece of what you're asking me in terms of how you get unstuck and how you allow yourself to move on

is not about forgiving yourself for the affair only, that may be a piece of it, but it is more so, how do I know that I can love differently from the way that I loved then that led me to the very affair that I then had because I just couldn't tolerate the consequences of my relationship. That's all very good advice. Thank you very much, Esther. Thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time.

This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.