How to Make Loving Corrections with adrienne maree brown
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Let's go places. Adrienne Marie Brown. Her work is informed by 25 years of social and environmental justice facilitation, primarily supporting black liberation. She is the author and editor of Emergent Strategy, Shaping Change, Changing Worlds, Pleasure Activism, The Politics of Feeling Good, Grievers and Maroons, and Adrienne's latest book, which I just absolutely loved,

It's called Loving Corrections and it's available now. PodSquad, this is what we're talking about today. Adrienne Marie Brown is the only person who can help us with the debacle that we are in, which is that we are in a place where so many of us are trying to

Move us towards progress. Move us towards kindness. Move us towards inclusivity and justice. And how we do that is we just tear each other's faces off. We just exclude each other. We ostracize each other. We want to be more loving. And so we...

screw each other over constantly. We want police reform, so we police each other online. We're in a bit of a quandary, Adrienne Marie Brown. And those are the people that we like. Those aren't even the people that we don't like.

Those are the homies. No, it's so true. Those are the people we like. The rest, we call it accountability. And we say, well, we're just holding each other accountable because the other side, we're not accountable for them. So we leave them alone. These are the people we love. And that is why we are horrific to each other. So enter Adrienne Marie Brown.

who is not new to this. Okay. She does have a new book, which is incredible and all about this called loving corrections. And the reason why you should read and trust it is because she has been doing this work in a loving, inclusive way for a very long time, which is why I trust her so much. It is because I know a lot of people in movement work that I trust their vision, but I don't want to be like them. And Adrian, Adrian,

Is someone whose vision I trust. Like Maya Angelou used to say, I like what she does and I like how she does it. Okay. Adrienne, I don't want you to feel too much pressure, but I just need you to fix everything in the next 45 minutes. And can we start by talking to us about how sometimes when we are thinking that we're engaging in making the world a better place,

We learn something new and then we pretend like we've known it forever. And everyone who hasn't known it forever is a complete moron who must be chastised. Oh my God. I hate this people. But we do it. I do it. I don't do that. I do not do that. Cause you're a good person. Yada, yada, yada. Adrian, help the rest of us. Yes. Be like Abby. Well, first of all, it's nice to see y'all.

And I'm really excited to talk about this book with y'all because I actually feel like you're a living model of this all the time with each other. Y'all are living, loving corrections. Every time you sit down and talk, you're always catching each other and be like, well, wait, but hold on. But I see this and I love you. And you report back on the loving corrections you're making with each other. And we need models of what it looks like to be in relationships where we each get to be very different and

And we're navigating space and love and time and wellness and sickness and all the things together. So good job. I want to start just by saying thank you for doing that for the pod squad and in your lives in general. I,

I came up in the somatics lineage where we learned that what humans all want and need is safety, dignity, and belonging. That everybody, that's kind of the universal set of things that most people are trying to figure out, how do I protect and balance these three things? That's safety. Can you say it one more time? Safety. Safety, dignity, and belonging.

Dignity. And belonging. Belonging, safety, dignity, belonging. And often we're trading between them. We're trading between them. So a lot of times if you're a child and you abuse child sexual trauma, things like that are happening in your childhood,

You make these moves towards safety, right? That you're like, I have to give up belonging maybe to my family and I have to run away. I have to go find safety. Or you make the other move. Okay, well, safety is not possible. I have to let that one go because I want to belong to this family. And this family is an abusive space, but I want to belong. I'm going to stay in it. And then dignity is kind of that.

in the middle bridge, right? Where you're like, I might not be unsafe, but this person really doesn't see me in my wholeness. They don't see me shine. They're constantly shrinking me. They're shaming me. They're making, you know, I get small, small, small, but I'm going to belong. You know, I think about the high school lunchroom. I'm going to sit over in the corner of the cool people's table, but at least I'm at a fricking table. Okay. Yes.

But if you think about that, right, that safety, dignity and belonging piece, then what happens when we learn something new where it's like, oh, I was wrong about trans people. I was transphobic and I learned something new and I had to be a little unsafe often to learn it. Right. It's like I had to take some risk. Maybe I put my foot in my mouth and someone comes and they're like, I see you and what you're saying.

You don't belong to the future you say you belong to. You don't belong to the vision of the world you say you believe in by the way you're acting. So you see that. You're like, okay, well, let me get myself together and get on the right side of this. And then all of a sudden we feel that unsafety and lack of belonging constantly at our backs, right? Like someone's sent some dogs after us to grab us and be like, I see that you're secretly still there.

Whatever it is, not belonging, not thoroughly educated. You're not standing up for the right legislation, whatever it is we're looking for. Where is the gap in your solidarity? Where is the weak spot? Where is your Achilles heel as a human? And the easiest way to take the light off of ourselves is to turn and look at someone else and be like, well, that person is.

you're really transphobic. Like I can see that. And it's a way to assert dominance. It's a way to start like I belong. Okay. I'm with the good. And I think so much of loving corrections for me is being like, none of us actually just get to be with the good.

There's not like some little island of good and we all just land on that island and then we just get to stay there. Every single person is actually floating in the same systems of harm, right? If that's the water that's all around us, we're all in it and we're bobbing, we're weaving. And what we get to learn in this life is actually all about who we choose to be in relationship with. So if we choose to be in relationship with people who hold a set of, hmm,

limited worldviews, then we're going to stay in that limited place and we're going to learn what that limitation allows us to learn.

So when I think about growing up, my dad was in the military, you know, so I grew up in a patriotic worldview and I could have chosen to stay in that. Instead, I was like, I have questions. I have doubts. I don't know that we're supposed to be occupying the entire world with guns. Something doesn't feel right about it for me. And so then I put myself in relationship to other kinds of people. I also got politicized before the internet. So I put myself in relationship with people who were questioning me, but lovingly being like, girl,

have you heard about feminism? Girl, like, do you understand what imperialism is? Can we sit down and talk about Malcolm X? Like people would just gather me and be like, do you know anything? And I was like, no, I don't. I was trained by the department of defense schools to be a cog in a system of believing in patriotism. If I'm going to do something else, I have to put myself into other relationships. And then we get in those relationships and start tearing each other apart. Right. So what I'm trying to do right now is figure out

how to be part of something that knows how to hold on to each other. Ashley Woodard Henderson, we were in a conversation about this election period and she said, act like you need each other, move like you need each other, talk to each other like you need each other. That feels like a lot of the essence of this is instead of turning back and being like, let me chastise you for what you don't know yet that I just learned. Instead, how can I be like, oh, someone needed me

to liberate myself from those systems. And I need other people to liberate themselves from those systems because we all live on this earth and we need as many of us as possible to get free. I think that's so interesting because I don't think we do this consciously.

And so I'm not saying this in an accusatory way. I felt this in myself a million times. Yeah. But there is a thing that happens where even if you believe that you are part of a movement of moving the world towards a more beautiful version of itself, of the future, as you say.

In the moment, ego can transcend that movement. So now I'm looking at a situation and I can choose one of two things. I can choose to do what you're saying instead of ostracizing or accusing. I can gather you. I can bring you closer. I can approach with love and gentleness, which means I am prioritizing the movement because that's what moves people.

Or I can choose ego, which is a little bit of glee inside me that I feel sometimes it's like a gleeful, like, oh, I gotcha. I am going to prove my goodness. I know more than that. I can separate myself from you in this way, which is so interesting because every time somebody does that to someone else and I see it,

To me, it's proof that they are prioritizing their own ego above the movement. That's what you say, Adrienne, when you say wisdom used as a sword.

By identifying and humiliating those who don't know, who don't yet have the wisdom that you do, that you got five minutes ago. So you got five minutes. You just received it. Octavia Butler is one of the people I reference a lot. And I think about, I learned a lot from her. And she said that our human fatal flaw is that we have intelligence problems.

And we always use it for hierarchy that we take this beautiful, big brain that is unique as far as we understand on earth. And maybe in the universe, we have this beautiful brain where we can be so self-aware and we can verbally process and we can understand the world and we can philosophize. And we use it to be like, how can I be just a little better than you? And over and over again. And, you know, we take that to the furthest extent where we're like, some people really are like,

the whole earth is for me. I'm the best and I deserve it all. And, and then if you're not someone who's been in that track or you weren't born into that privileged location and no one ever gave you that idea, then you're in the rest of the world where you're like, it's not all for me. I'm not supposed to have it all. I'm just going to eke by, I'm going to try to get my little piece of it. But that hierarchy is killing us, that form of hierarchy where it's like, I'm better than you. I'm, I'm gooder than you. Yeah. And, and,

Miriam Kaba talks about what happens if you let go of that idea of good, like of being good. And what happens if you pick up instead this idea of being human? Almost every faith I've ever come across, it's asking this question of like, can you relinquish this idea that you are going to be good or perfect? And can you surrender that you need a higher power? You need something larger than yourself that you can belong to, that you can account to, that you can pray to, that you can surrender to in some ways.

And I've been thinking a lot about that lately, that for me, loving corrections is a way that we get to be holy with each other. Right. It's like, oh, you're not good. I'm not good. But we're really trying to figure out how to be human with each other and how to make room for all of you and all of me. And then.

If we are intentional, could we do less harm to each other? And if we do harm, could we repair that harm? And maybe in the repair, become more beautiful and more holy? Looking at it and saying, oh, white supremacy. Yeah, that...

That's not good for you as a white person. And it's not good for me as a black person. So let's adapt together and it's going to be messy. It's going to be clunky, but like it's time to adapt because that system, that hierarchy, it makes you isolated and it makes me oppressed. And then we're battling with each other instead of enjoying the abundance of this earth.

I want to like get the image of a dinner table and I'm going to call myself out here. Glennon's like, oh, geez. There are so many times around our dinner table because, you know, Adrian, like you, even though I didn't come from a military background, I grew up in a patriotic world, the world of the United States, and I was representing it. So because of that, I had formed so many opinions and belief systems around the

affirming what I was doing every day. And it was kind of an important thing for me to believe in order to do it for a lifestyle.

And so sometimes when we're sitting around the dinner table, Abby says inappropriate things or says something that's off a little bit, whether it's because I grew up in a big family that lots of people, boys energy, and also in locker rooms where everything was kind of on the table. And one of the things that I notice is like our children, the cringe, the

That happens in them because they're they're like budding, you know, philanthropists and social workers and what's an activist. That's the word I'm looking for.

Plus they're kids, so they are differentiating by saying whatever you are is wrong and whatever I am is better than that. Yeah, totally. Adrian, yes, they are. And when the corrections come, I have this like enormous amount of humility. And I think that what is interesting, because one of our kids is really big time into activism right now, and I love that for them. And I think it's really important. And I think it's this identity thing.

this intellectual hierarchy and this identity thing. And I think that that's beautiful. But I just want to shout out to all the parents who sit around a table and get icked, cringed at. And the truth is, is like, I am the kind of person who believes in progress and wants the world to be better and also knows that like,

I'm not fully there yet. And I never will be. I am fucked from my childhood and my time. I'm working on it. No, you're just moving forward. I mean, you're doing a fantastic job. I mean, you are doing a really, I see it in you. But I will say I was the one, you know, when I got politicized by all these loving people in college, I came home and was not in a loving correction tone with my parents. You know, I came home and I was like,

what is the military and why would you do this? And how could you make me complicit? And, you know, I mean, I really was just like, you're the problem. It's you. Right. And sometimes that still comes out in me. Right. Sometimes I'll be around my parents and my dad or my mom. Someone will say something. I'll be like,

like a teenager and I will be like, I've got to fix them. And what I have learned over years and years of them, you know, they're like, oh yeah, I am the shell that you have to break out of to be yourself. And I also am a person who is breaking out of a shell, right? I'm also, those things coexist, right? And the contradiction exists that there's,

The ideas that my parents have, the worldviews that they came up with were the ones they needed to survive the times in which they grew up. They were steeped in even deeper waters. You know, in some ways I'm like, oh, like it was not legal for y'all to even get married until a little bit before you got married. That's the worldview you were in. And if I go back to my grandmother's age and I try to think about.

what my grandmother would think about who I am now if I met her when she was in her 40s or 20s or something. It's wild to imagine her worldview didn't have any way of comprehending what matters to me right now. But...

There's a through line, which is every generation was trying to be as safe and dignified and to belong as much as they could in their time. And that's what's happening too with your kids. I think the best sign, like, I'm like, I know that I am loved because when I come to my parents and I'm like,

your whole worldview is wrong. They're like, tell me what you're talking about. Tell me what you mean. I'm curious. I would like your tone to be a little, you know, like we could work on that. It took about a decade to get the tone together. Right. And it was a hard decade. It was a decade of a lot of, you know, we had gaps. We had times when we weren't talking, but the whole time I knew I was unconditionally loved by them and I could come back

I could come back over and over and over. And, you know, I brought them a lot of stuff, you know, I was like, Hey, I'm tripping on acid. Okay. Well that sounds, that sounds different. Maybe you should take a nap, you know, tell me more. I slept with a girl. Well, what was, did you like that? Was that fun? Oh, that, you know, I'm,

going through a massive breakup and I think I'm having a breakdown. Okay, well, do you need to come home? You always have a place here. So there's something about that fundamental curiosity. My parents are like, whatever you become in this life, we're not going to let go of you. We're going to hold on to you. And I see them do that with their own families as well, right? Like my mom has a bunch of family who

Where Trump's voters and coming home into that space has been fraught for us. Because we're like, wow, you really like... Do you notice that you have black and brown family? Does it matter? My mom continues to go into that space lovingly and be like, I want to talk to you and I want to know you and I want you to know me. It takes rigor. There's a rigor to being a parent. But I think...

You know, there's a short story I always want to write about a whole world that's driven by mothering, because I think there's something about that sacred act of parenting, that unconditional love that's at the root of loving corrections. It's like, I love you and I'm going to hold your hand and we're going to change together. I'm going to tell you everything I know about these systems and what you're calling cringe. That thing evolves, right? Where like now I'll feel it as like, oh, there's dissonance. So instead of feeling it as like, oh, something's wrong with you. I'm like, oh, there's a dissonance.

You came from a different place than I'm coming from, or you have a different worldview than I have. I'm trying to create more space in myself for those things. And curiosity is my way. Curiosity is always the path. When I look at your career, Abby, and I look at your life, I'm like, what you have done for women in the world is so important.

that I can overlook your USA, that that was the like box that you were in to do that. Cause it was like, you know, that's the box that all athletes have to get into in order to compete at these scales. That's how the world is structured. But I see what you were doing is still doing liberating work inside the structure that you were given. And now you still have life ahead of you to be like, well, how do I feel about the American experiment? Right. There's still room for

There's still room to say, I want to understand more about who we've been and what's possible. And we can have a conversation. We can be curious. And we can believe that the other person can change. That's the other part. Your kids may not believe you can change, but if you keep changing with them, they'll learn that you can change. And that's going to be delicious.

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Just for being from a different time, truly. And then looking at my children and hoping they don't think the same way about me that I do about my parents. But it's like this binary. It's like, do I say right and wrong? If I look, am I right or are you wrong? Everything goes bad. But if I get curious about just being on this continuum of time, it's like the Khalil Gibran idea of like our children belong to the future and we can't go there even in our dreams. Yeah.

But we can go there when we're curious, when we're not defensive or fragile. Yeah. When we say, tell me about your world. Well, and the thing that I was going to say to you that I think the thing that I hope people take away from this book is what you're angry at is the systems. Yes. Not the people. Right. And I keep trying to do this like reframe move where I'm like, because I have to have it. You know, I'm like, oh, you got.

trapped in this bad idea. You were born into the bad idea and you never saw anything other than that. And you really got it steeped into you. And now you are a defender of

of that bad idea, whatever it is, patriarchy, white supremacy, ableism, something that makes you feel like just a little better. And it makes you feel secure in your place in society, but you got trapped in that idea. And I'm so angry at that idea. That idea is causing so much harm. That idea is not compatible with the future. You know, I'm biased that I really like my side of things, but I'm like, history really agrees with me. Empires always fall systems of

of power over that when there's never an equalizing, there's never a balancing that always falls apart. People always rise up. People always want freedom. That's just history. I didn't make that up and direct action and protest and social justice and all that. People always do those things. That's humans. That's how we do it, right? That's how we move. That's what I've been thinking with my parents. I'm like, oh,

My job is to hold on to you and help you keep coming forward and also grab onto that generation that's out ahead and be like, oh, and you pull me, right? You help me not to fall too far to the right as I start to think that like, I can't take the risk of changing anymore. I have to uplift Grace Lee Boggs here because when I met her, she was a mentor of mine. She was 92. She was still curious. She was still changing. She was still like,

tell me about this Skype and what does this make possible? You know? And she was like really excited about like, I can talk to anyone in the world about these ideas of mine. Who knew? I never thought I'd see the day. Right. If you can orient that way of like, I'm going to keep going. And until the day I die, I hope to have curiosity and I hope to still be changeable. Yeah. I also don't have to push anybody. Right. Everyone's not on the same trajectory as me. Everyone's not moving at the same pace. Right.

Some people are really interested in going backwards. So I'm like, oh, I'm going to pass you in the road, but I'm going the other way. And the boundaries help. I'm like, oh, you're living your life. You've got your lessons. I'm living mine. In the places where we're supposed to push up against each other, let's do that really well. Let's do that with as much dignity as we can. If you sit down and you're fighting and you take that person's hand, it will change your fight. Because policing people, it's like not using the tools of the master's hat. Like you can't point towards...

or move towards a more beautiful world while using the tools of the old world. Exactly. The shaming and the ostracizing and the anger. I want to ask you when you have been lovingly corrected, because while reading your book, I was thinking about a moment in my life where I was in big trouble on the interwebs, which happens to me every once in a while, because I had spoken about my dissonance with the born this way narrative.

This was years ago, and I still can't feel that in my body. It's not true to me, and I feel like it's kind of an old idea that we had to use to prove our... Existence. Yes, yes. Clarify what Born This Way is. Like, the fact... Okay, the idea that we have to, in order to have equality, say...

Well, we can't help it. We were born this way as if it's like an apology almost or an excuse. Yes. Sorry. As opposed to I can be gay. I want all my equality, whether I decided this two weeks ago or, you know, anyway, at the time it caused a bit of a hubbub. I can imagine. And I was dealing with all of the pushback on the interwebs.

Brandi Carlile called me and this is now she's one of our dearest friends in the entire world, which is what tends to happen after a loving correction that turns beautiful. Exactly. Exactly. And,

And I was like, what's happening? Oh, now I'm in fucking trouble. Now Brandi Carlile is calling me. Now the queer icon, like it's over for me. Right? Yeah. That's what happens when you do something against the gays. A drone just drops Brandi Carlile on your porch. Listen, now it makes me kind of want to put my gay foot in my gay mouth in some way. I'm like, Brandi could call me out of the blue. Okay. She said, hey, it's me.

I love you. I've read all of your stuff. My wife and I talk about you constantly. I just watched this video and Catherine's trying to explain to me what you meant and I don't understand it, but I think there's something true in there, but it's still making me really scared and nervous. And I trust you and I want to hear everything that you have to say about this. And it started a four hour conversation and then-

a friendship that is probably one of the closest friendships in our family's life. And you understood from that, she was bringing to you a perspective that you didn't have, which is people like me who grew up when I grew up, where I grew up, needed that to protect our lives from our family members. And you dismissing it is- It feels dangerous to me for those people. And so you were able to like really-

share how dangerous it felt to you, how dangerous it felt to her. It was a beautiful. Yeah. It was a beautiful. And it's also interesting, right? Cause you're, you're advocating for your own experience in a way, right? You're trying to say like, I just want to make sure that I fit into the gay belonging. Cause I didn't feel like I was born this way. I didn't figure it out. It took me a while. I didn't understand. I didn't know I was trained to not think this was a way, but I think a loving correction that I've experienced that happened very recently is

I had my feelings get hurt and I went to tell a friend about it. I was like, someone just hurt my feelings. Like I feel so rejected by this and like misunderstood. And I feel like a little kid, you know, I just feel like, oh my gosh, dist, you know? And I tell my friend and I made the mistake of like trying to do this all through text, right? I was like flying through the airport. I was like, someone hurt my feelings. And I need this friend to just be like,

you're so right. And no one should ever hurt your feelings. And like, I'm never going to hurt your feelings and I love you. And you know, you didn't do anything wrong. And like, you're perfect. That's the only right answer. Like fuck everybody else. Like you're perfect. Right. So what I get back from my friend was a text that was like, I really understand why that person did that. I understand why they drew the boundary and the way they said it made me think, yeah, it was just like, Oh God,

You also, you're on that side. Like you're over there. And I spun all the way out. I was like, how can we even be friends? I'm all alone in the world. There is no God. Like I went all, you know, that's where I go. There's no belonging possible for someone like me. My heart is just broken and I just, I'm going to live the rest of this life by myself. And it took me a while to even say to him, I'm like, my feelings are so hurt that you are taking their side. Right.

My friend's like, you just really misunderstood. I missed a comma, but you took that all the way. Like, what is going on with you? And my friend is like, you're wrong. And I could take it personally, but I'm not going to. But I am going to say I'm a little worried about you because you're wrong in a way that like is not like you. What's going on? Right. And I was like, oh, no.

It's because my therapist stopped being a therapist for me in July and I don't have a new therapist. Like all this, it was like a whole different journey. Right. I was like, oh, the thing that hurt my feelings would not have mattered if I had my therapy situation. Right. I was like, I don't have anywhere to process this weird thing that I need to process somewhere.

Part of what happens for me, the loving correction I often need is for people to call me into presence. I'll get going so fast and I'm using shorthand and I'm using emotional shorthand and I'm using text shorthand. And I'm just like, can everyone just understand me? I just have too much to do. I can't really do the verbal processing, but I do need you to know you fucking hurt me. That's not fair, right? My friends know to be like, Adrian, slow down, take a breath. Have you put your feet on the ground?

what's actually going on. And I think you and I have talked about this a number of times, Glennon, that I've been in this eating disorder journey that is uncovering so much trauma in my life that is reshaping how all of my relationships work. And I need loving correction right now more than ever actually in my life because so many of the ways that I thought were me were actually shaped by this

control system. The system is trying to control and create safety for me. I became the person who could be the safest person. I became that version of myself. And now I can't stay in that. I can feel like all the ways that that's crowding in on me. I'm like, no, I got to be much bigger than that, which means I got to be messy. I got to bust out this way and bust out that way. And I need people around me who are like, yeah, bust out, make mess and get bigger.

Already this week, that friend and I are like, we're 20,000 leagues deeper. And I was like, how could we even go deeper? You know everything about me, but now we're even deeper. Right. Because I fucked up. And then she got curious and asked me the question and we talked. And it was risked a conflict. It was a conflict. Right. It was a conflict. Right.

And I used to be so scared of conflict too. I think that's the other thing that Loving Corrections is inviting is like, I quote my sister often with this from consensus model that if we can't meaningfully disagree, we can't meaningfully agree. And I feel like so much of this is saying like, we have to learn to be uncomfortable, to have tension in our bodies and between us. And then like what you said to say, here's what I feel.

Here's what I feel. Is there room for that here? Right. I think so often when people are moving on the internet, they're trying to just say, here's what I know and to pull it away from the feelings of being a human being.

And so much of what I'm trying to do is intervene on this social media world we live on. I'm like the real world, when you're walking around and you're at each other's dinner table, you're not sitting there with a bunch of bots and trolls and comment farmers and other people throwing stuff in. You're with real people who have whole complex stories and they have a reason for everything that they think they're doing. And I hold that space because even the people I'm like, I don't understand why.

how MAGA is so big. I don't understand why people like listen to Trump. I don't understand why people listen to Netanyahu. I don't understand it.

It's befuddling to me. But I do know that each person who feels that way, they have a story behind it. And that story is full of shaping. That story is full of, this is where I felt belonging. These people accept me as I am. These people want to protect whatever thing I think is my power. Exactly. Because we don't have to understand why some people listen to Trump or Netanyahu. But you and I do understand that.

Wanting a strong man in our life, whether it's an eating disorder or a dogma or a religion, we all understand running from the complexity and nuance and pain of being a human being by just believing some horrible strong man who will say, I will protect you, whether that's anorexia or binge eating or Netanyahu or Trump or Christianity for me or a wellness program or whatever. It's all the same because...

We don't want to live in the mushy, gushy, terrifying nuance of, I don't know, you don't know. Can we not know together, but move lovingly towards a better idea? That's right. That's right. It's messy. It's not tone policing. It's not just like, yeah, I really hate how you just said that, you know, like it's not being nice. It's not being polite. It's not, it's not about that. It's really like,

Sometimes love is the most ferocious activity you can engage in. Sometimes you're like, I'm going to fight for you. My mom calls this a love ambush. I'm going to ambush you with love. Like you're not getting away from what I've got to give you. Sometimes it looks like millions of people protesting in the street and feeling hopeless, but feeling it together. And sometimes it looks like sitting with a grandmother who you know is homophobic and saying, I'm going to tell you about my girlfriend.

You know, because I just want you to know that I have love in my life and I know it makes you uncomfortable and I'm just going to be okay with that. I'm not going to ask you to accept her. I didn't need you to ever meet her, but I need you to know that I'm very happy. It's the season to shop new styles, electronics, and definitely a holiday trip. And what if each time you made a purchase, you got a little something back?

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You know, one of my favorite trips when I stayed at an Airbnb instead of the usual hotel this last summer, we did a family trip in Montana on Flathead Lake. And I couldn't have been more grateful to Airbnb for giving my family forever memories. I had an entire cozy house to myself, complete with a kitchen where I could

where I could cook breakfast and a private backyard where I could enjoy my coffee each morning, sitting out on the dock, looking out in the lake. I guess the best part, I needed space. I'm a big person. I usually travel with a lot of luggage, so there's no cramped rooms or noisy hallways. It was quiet, private, and exactly what me and my family needed. And when

And whether you're looking for a pool, a cozy living room, or just more privacy, Airbnb has options that hotels just simply don't. Next time you're planning a getaway, try Airbnb. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret. Adrienne, could you help us understand, because this was really fascinating to me, as important to know why

what is a loving correction as what is not. And you contrast it like so far as I can tell, it's like relationship required in loving correction. If it's not based on relationship and wanting to get closer as opposed to wanting to get farther away, it's not a loving correction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a big piece of it. And then you contrast it with this policing, which you say like the last damn place that a loving correction is going to happen is on the internet where it's policing, surveilling, punishing. Tell us your theory on that because a lot of people would think like, oh, well, it's all loving corrections. You probably take the feedback on the internet and you're like, oh, I will take it to my heart. Explain what happens with the surveilling, how you handle it, why it has not to do with what we're talking about.

If we don't have any relationship to each other and parasocial relationships are, you know, we might need to do a whole nother conversation around that because a lot of times what I experience is that people are like, I think I have a relationship with you. I listened to your podcast. I read your book. I follow your memes. And so I think I know who you are and what you stand for and what you just did. I am so disappointed because that doesn't fit with the idea that I came up with about who you are.

And I feel like I had to learn this. I'm like, oh, I don't have a relationship with this person. I don't know them. It's not mutual. I don't know anything about you. I don't know what you stand for. I don't know if you're showing up in good faith. I don't know if you believe that I can change. I don't know if you have the same vision of the world that I have. And

I'm always tracking for the punitive, right? So I'm always tracking for when someone starts with like, I'm so disappointed in you, right? To me, that's like the first step of the punitive where I'm like, oh, you want to make me feel bad about this, whatever this is. And yeah,

We grew up in a punitive world. We started in our homes where it's like, you're going to get spanked or put on timeout or something punishing that moves you away from belonging. Then you go to school and it's like, you did something bad. You're going to detention. You're getting suspended. You're getting expelled away from belonging. Then we get to juvenile detention, juvenile stuff. And then it's prison. It's punishment. We're going to move you away from everybody. Belonging is the first thing we're going to take from you, right? That's the punishment. So I'm always tracking that. I'm like,

if you want to follow me, if you want to be here, be here. If you don't, don't. You have agency to be here and not be here. But if you came to police me, those are the people that I restrict because it doesn't create change. For me, being shamed has never created the kind of change that I want. It makes me feel small instead of making the idea. I'm like, help me shrink the bad idea, but make me grow. Let me expand. And that happens in relationship. The

The policing piece and the way that surveillance is happening online right now, I'm also like, where are you putting your attention? You know, if I take it back to emergent strategy, one of the biggest pieces of it is what you pay attention to grows. So you're spending all your time online trying to find the place where I'm out of alignment with something that you have decided is my problem.

value system or you spending all your time being like, I'm going to intentionally misunderstand the purpose of what you're doing here. And I'm going to try to draw you into writing a whole book in my comment thread or whatever. So

I think that that's the piece for me where I'm like, oh, you're not paying attention in the way that I'm trying to pay attention. I'm trying to pay attention to where can I grow? What can I learn? How can I be authentic and in right relationship? And where can I love more? I'm trying to bring my attention to the people who are embodying love, doing love, growing love. And yeah,

If I pick up my attention and come meet you where you're at, right? I move into this defensive mode where I'm like, I'm actually a really good person. And if you look at my history, I'm good. I'm like, no, I'm not. I probably fucked up and I might've disappointed you now, but I don't know you. If a lot of people say something, I will take it to my team, my community, my circle. Often when I check on my friends, they're like, well,

Most of my friends are not online very much. I think that's probably intentional, but a lot of my friends are like, do you know any of these people? Do you think that your values are slipping away? Are you out of alignment? And they'll just ask me to self-assess a little bit. That helps me slow down and be like, oh, just like with a gentle parenting with a kid, you know, you're like, what's going on right now, buddy? You got ice cream all over your shirt, you know? Like what's happening, right? I talk to myself like that too. Like I will catch myself and be like,

you really are doing your best right now. And you may have made a mistake. You can trust yourself. You repair. Whenever repair is needed, I am very trustworthy. I'm great at repairing. I know how to apologize well. I know how to not repeat something I've done. I've been practicing. So the online space for me is,

I really had to pull my ego out of that space. My ego, that sense of like the part of me I want to protect, I let my friends and family hold that part of me. They're the ones who I trust to hold me. The online space I use for mobilizing people. I use to move people, educate people, but I'm not trying to deepen relationship. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yes. I mean, I've gotten to the point where I actually feel really proud of

of people who, like us, honestly, I feel proud that we have somehow made it and continued to be speaking in these spots because I think 10, 20 years from now, people are going to look back on this time and wonder how any of us survived the toxicity and shame and horrificness of the way we have allowed online discourse to happen. For 15 years, Adrienne, I was like, I am going to be the

comments whisperer to every single person. I mean, so my sister will tell you, I spent 15 years and I don't, I'm not regret it. I guess it's what I needed to do for that time. There's, it was right for me then. I have such a different feeling of it right now. I think a lot of it came from shame. I think I thought I'm a bad person. And so what I'm trying to do is pretend I'm good. So anytime anybody says you're not good, I have to real quick, just be so loving. And

And I think through years of loving correction, not online, but in therapy and with my family, I have stopped thinking that I'm bad or good. And I have started thinking, oh, I'm just a person who shows up. And so I no longer have to defend my goodness. But what I do know about every single person who really tries and who shows up and shows their heart is that you don't have to be good or bad to deserve respect and kindness. And you get to block that.

Every single person that you think has a whiff or a spice of policing you or not liking you. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye forever. You get to create the environment that you need to flourish and bloom. And if that place needs to be full of gentleness and kindness, then you just block the fuck out.

out of anybody who brings you anything but love. Yeah. Can we have a moment of silence? Can we just have a moment of silence that Glennon just said something? That's a big deal. For me, because I've never said that before in my life, and I'm like...

defending my little self. Her eyes are like getting glossy, like a little watery right now. Like that she doesn't believe that. Because it took, because Adrian, you'll know this because it always takes seeing your kid because now my kids, my kids,

Now, I never was able to do it for myself, but now I'm watching my kid try to grow a creative presence online. And the second somebody shows up with a surveillance energy who I know is just hates watching her. I went to her last night and said, you do not have to deal with this shit.

Block, block, block, block, block forever. That's right. I love this because your protector is activated, right? And when, for me, when my protector self, that part of me is activated, what I'm learning through therapy is that's me protecting some part of myself. Whenever I'm trying to, you know, I'm like, I will shield myself.

the everybody's from all that's me being like, I need shield. I need shield. I need protection. Right. And since no one has done this for me, I'm going to become a protector and I will shield us all. I'll take it all. You know? So you're saying when you are acting as a protector to

others, it is always an activation of something that needs to be protected in you. It's almost always an activation of something in you that's like, I need to protect this. Right? So when you move to protect your kid, that's very literal, right? You're like, this is someone that came from me and I'm going to protect them. This is a part of me. I'm going to protect them. But if you're like, I see this a lot online too. People are like, I'm trying to advocate for this person. I'm going to try to protect them. I'm like, you think that person isn't seen and you don't feel seen. And you're like, I know what that's like. I'm going to protect that. I'm going to show up for that.

you know what I do, I tend to restrict a lot more than I block. So I'm like, I am not going to allow you to just willy nilly run ramp shot all over my page, but I don't want you to not have access to the medicine that I have to offer at some point, maybe it'll be of use to you. So I love this status Glennon, this, this, um,

naming, like, cause I fight very much to be authentic. You know, like I'm like, it took me a long time. It has taken me a long time to get as authentic as I am now. And I don't think I'm done yet, you know, but I, I'm like, I have worked hard to stay whole. And I think one of the things that we have to also notice is,

Is social media and the internet, like what it means has changed drastically. So when we first came on, you were only connecting with people you knew, you know, you were making networks of people. You were like, I went to high school with that guy. We don't really get along, but like, I know that person. It's a relationship. It's a relationship. Even then when it started to expand, it was like, okay, I might not know them directly, but like, I know someone who knows them. And like, there was still some sense of like, now, like,

we're really playing with fire. We're trying to continue to build community and connection in a space that we know is being surveilled. We know people are flooding it with misinformation. We know people are flooding it, trying to build antagonization. And we know that it is monetized based on how much conflict happens there. So we're really, I mean, all my friends were like, girl, get off the social media. I'm like, you're all correct. You're all correct. You're all correct. But

I have not yet found another way to reach as many people as quickly when things are happening, right? When, when things are in motion, like we haven't figured that out. I think in the next 10 to 20 years, whatever, we will find these ways of creating something that nourishes the part of us that wants a town square, but not in the stocks. Right. And I feel like that's what happens is I was just trying to come go to the market and I was just trying to get like some, and all of a sudden someone's just like, you're the,

perfect. You know? And I'm just like, okay, okay. I know you don't love me. I know you don't love me. So everything else you have to say, I can just turn down the volume of that. I think that I'm supposed to listen to the people who love me in this life and keep moving towards that love.

I also think there's something in here about staying curious about yourself. And so for me, I have had to really limit my time online because I need more time to just be curious about myself. I need more time to journal. I need more time to read. Maybe loving corrections in a way is like trying to get people to

gather their energy back and really get more precise about how they're going to spend it for the rest of their lives. Right. I'm like, you can keep pouring it into things that you don't love and that don't love you back. And I don't think you'll ever find satisfying change there. And I don't think you'll necessarily become a better person. You might not change at all, or you can pour your energy into places that love you and that you love and that you want to be there. You want to fight for the relationship. You want to fight for the connection.

And then you'll change so much, an infinite amount. Like I'm such a different person than I was last week. You know what I mean? Like I feel that way all the time that I'm like, is anyone keeping up with this? This is outstanding. Like I'm, again, totally, totally different. And my friends who know me are like, girl, it's you, but it's more you. You're more you. And I'm like, yeah, but it feels like wildly different. It's all because of loving correction. Adrienne, that's your next book title, please. Is anyone keeping up with this? And then just all your growth. Is anyone keeping up?

Just give me a fucking ribbon. Okay, I want to end with this. We've talked about the internet and how to handle creating and only allowing

the kind of feedback that allows us to grow. And I think we've landed on restrict or block, whatever you're feeling that day, but. Yeah, I think restrict or block, but also take yourself out of that space, right? Artists existed before social media. We will exist after social media. People have fans and followers and they spread word of mouth. And if you make good art,

people will want your good art. Yes. I know tons of artists who are never online, who have no social media presence whatsoever. And somehow they still have amazing careers of making music or making art or whatever it is. So I'm also keep reminding, I need that reminder too, that I'm like, even if I got off the internet tomorrow, I would still be a writer and people would still buy my books and they would still want to hear what I had to say. And I would find a way to say it.

We can't be reliant on something that doesn't love us. Okay. I want to end with a real life story because I just think it's so important and simple and beautiful, but people like every, we all struggle with it.

Because when we talk about love, it is interesting because love sounds like a, you know, just a, is it love or is it not? However, we all know that, especially when we're talking generationally, you're in a family where the generation before, some people in that generation think of love differently. Yeah. You come out as queer. You have sisters. Yes. Thanks be to God. You have sisters. Thank God. Okay.

Please just leave us with the model of solidarity that your sisters helped you achieve with your family and how that went down. Because there's something in here that is just how it's done. Yeah, thank you. I ride hard for my sisters and they ride hard for me. But I'd always had the sense of I'm the oldest sister and I'm the one who protects them. And I don't need that protection necessarily from them.

And then when I came out to my grandparents, which again, I didn't go about it in the most elegant way. I wrote them a letter while I was tripping on acid that was like, I date both men and women. And I think that God still loves me. And I mailed it before I came down. There was no going back. Right. So they wrote me back. That sounds like a very sober thought to me. The thought was sober and the identity was sober. But, you know, if I could do it over again, I don't know if I would ever do it differently, actually. Anyway, don't tell my mom that.

She thinks I would do it differently. Okay. So I tell my grandparents, they send me back a letter, basically full of scripture. And it's clear that I'm not welcome to come visit. I'm not welcome to come be around them until I get right with God and let go of these demonish ways. Right. My sisters, both younger, one of them who had started having kids were like, if Adrian is not welcome, none of us are coming.

None of us will be visiting. None of us will be maintaining the relationship as if that's something we can do when Adrian's not here. She's our sister. And that meant if we're not coming, the grandkids aren't coming. Right.

So then now you're getting into real territory, right? I'm like, y'all can throw me away, but you're not the two-year-old perfect kid. Really? You know? So that lasted for almost a decade. I didn't know that. No, I didn't know it was a decade. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I just realized it because we, over this past year, have been reuniting, have been going back. My parents moved back down south and my mom was in relationship the entire time in ways that made sense to me and that I felt honored by. Like I never felt like she was shrinking me in order to stay in relationship there. But eventually the time came where there was a shift. There was an opening. There was a, I want the relationship. I understand things a little differently now.

I'm ready. And I want to see you guys. I want to see my grandkids. And we were able to come home and it felt like coming home and it felt like it's still Tinder, right? It's like, there's still things that I'm like, I don't have to bring this up. We were actually visiting, I think one of Donald Trump's like first indictments. And it came up on my phone and I was like,

I don't have to cheer. I don't have to say anything about, you know, I don't have to do anything about that right now. We can just focus on being here and playing a round of cards with someone who is really trying to make a major step on her homophobia. And here I am holding her hand and we're taking this step. Wow. But you held the thing first. So Adrian, you were able to come back and maintain dignity.

So many of us are asked to come back. Because my sisters flanked my business, right? My sisters stood on either side of me and they were like, what you are matters so much to us and you belong to us and no one is going to tear us apart. We got you. And I didn't know I needed it.

It broke me down. It broke me down. That's so fascinating because I didn't even think of it as your dignity. I thought of it as their own dignity. Yeah, it's both. When you told that story, I was like, they are protecting their own dignity because they would have to be pretending going into that place and bringing their kids and being like, I'm going to disassociate from the fact that I am so offended by this. But I think this is part of what I think of as like,

American culture and white supremacist culture, there's a way that like going into a place and not speaking about politics and not speaking about religion. That's what dignity looks like. It looks like dignity, not to create a fuss. Don't ruffle any feathers. That's dignity. And I think what my sister showed me was like, no, holding a line, that's dignity. And they, they didn't think twice. I could feel it. And they didn't think twice. Like I, I would have never asked for this, but they didn't think they were like, we're not going.

I was like, what? We're not going. And then the return has been really powerful because we don't go alone. We always go together. I don't go unflanked. You know, I'm like, I still need them. And now I know that. And they know that. And we go, we listen to Stevie Nicks usually as we drive and we're just sing our hearts out, move it all through. And then we go have an afternoon. And it amazes me.

than to look at my grandmother and to think about when she was born and what she was told to believe in a tiny town in Georgia and where she is now. That's right. And your mom. I mean, I think about everybody. And my mom, for sure. Her job. But I've been thinking about the lineage, right? Because I'm like, oh, how does someone like my mom

become as open as she is. If there weren't these small openings in the generation, small openings in the generation, like it looks so small and that helps me now. Cause right now I'm like, I want every change to be massive, whole holistic, total global. Right. But I'm like, what's much more likely is this going to be me making changes that feel massive for me and look small to someone else. And that's going to be the world, you know?

Oh, Adrian. Thank you.

Thank you. Always so good to talk to you. Always so beautiful. All of you go pick up Loving Corrections. So good. Go get it. Read it. Go get it. And sister somebody, you know, sister somebody, flank somebody, reach out to somebody. And especially like, I really recommend people have practice partners for this. Find practice partners. Find people and be like, I want to get better at like this, at conflict and correction and like

being able to shape each other. We're doing it anyway, but I want to bring it out of any manipulation. I don't want to be behind the scenes talking about you. I want to get better at like, just bringing it right here. And pod squad, the internet is not your practice partner. Okay. You got to find a flesh and blood practice partner. But you might meet your practice partner on the internet and then get on the phone, get on zoom, talk to each other, go for a walk in a park. It's fall. Get some tea. Beautiful. We love you pod squad. See you next time. Bye. Bye.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.